we'll start with vice chair liz cheney's remarkable bombshell at the end of tuesday's hearing when she revealed that an unnamed witness in the select committee's investigation with a phone call from the ex president himself. that witness told his or her lawyer who told the committee who referred the matter to the justice department. "the wall street journal" puts it like this, quote, the revelation can add to several lines of inquiry for federal prosecutors to ask about the riot when the evidence is expanding and moving toward people in trump's orbit if not trump himself. a spokesperson for trump responded to the committee's allegation of witness tampering by surprise, surprise, lashing out at liz cheney. we won't give the statement any air time because the most significant thing about the statement is that it doesn't actually address or rebutt the allegation itself. "the washington post" last night built on liz cheney's revelation

with this reporting, quote, the former president has called witnesses throughout the investigation according to those who spoke anonymously to reveal conversations. they ruled out a number of former officials as the recipient of this latest call highlighted by cheney saying it was not former white house counsel pat cipollone whose deputy patrick philbin, former media officials, matthews or former pascale. the allegations of witness tampering by trump and his associates, though, do add new dimension to the wider scandal that is to overturn the 2020 election results which, as vice chair liz cheney added, trump was, quote, substantially and personally involved in. politico reports on the dual track of the committee's public hearings with this analysis.

on the one hand, the committee is focused on filling out the historical record of the attempt to overturn the election and its violent conclusion. on the other, its members are laying out an unmistakable map to a potential criminal case against the former president and his allies and the justice department may soon get a much clearer picture of that map for a potential criminal case and bennie thompson dropped a significant bit of news after the hearing tuesday telling cnn that the committee has started producing information for the justice department regarding interviews that the committee has conducted. the january 6th select committee filling in the blanks on donald trump's potential criminal pull culpability is where we start the hour. also joining us carol leonnig for the washington post. former u.s. attorney barbara mcquade and former top official at the state department all msnbc contributors. you and your colleague ben

thrush, just take us inside of what you reported about the state of or the lack of any criminal investigation or prosecution of donald trump. >> i think that the upshot of our story is really to show exactly how impactful he's hearings have been on the justice department. it was cassidy hutchinson's testimony that just jolted officials at the department and people working directly with the investigation. she provided information they have not uncovered in their own inquiry and sparked conversations about trump's own criminal culpability and criminal intent leading up to the january 6th riot that had not been happening before. until then prosecutors had only been careful about talking about which was the riot itself and slowly building outward. in the context of whether or not he was a motivating factor for any of the people acting in the

course of the crimes they were already sort of looking at or potential crimes they were looking at, but suddenly they had to have more direct conversations about trump. while hutchinson's probably the most visible and most obvious example of this because her testimony was so electrifying, i think it's safe to say that the committee is uncovering evidence in a rapid clip and the justice department is interested in it as you can see with the back and forth squabble about the transcripts of witnesses who have spoken to congress and the fact that the justice department very much wants the information as it proceeds. >> barbara, you have to explain this to me because if they were just investigating what they saw before their eyes, what they saw before their eyes was donald trump's dereliction of duty. that was very public and what the committee has made clear they're probing is the 181 minutes in which he does nothing when they're chanting "hang mike pence," how does that, in terms of katie's reporting, how did that not raise any suspicions?

>> yeah, i don't know. if that reporting is accurate, i have no reason to believe that katie's reporting is not, then it's really disappointing that the justice department is looking so myopically at just the events of january 6th. i can't imagine not wanting to investigate the, for example, the meetings surrounding jeffrey clark and that abuse of power. they have said that they were investigating the false slate of electors. that certainly comes back to donald trump, and so if they hadn't been looking at these things before, i certainly hope that this has kickstarted them to look at things because even if donald trump is not their target, they investigate crimes, not people, but the crimes certainly extend well beyond the building at the capitol on january 6th. >> carol leonnig, as your great book and other bodies of reporting has pointed out, was there no aspect of the plot to overturn the election that didn't have donald trump as the architect and the spokesperson. no aspect of it.

the fake electors were invited and tweeted about it and taunted on twitter by trump. a meeting convened by trump. he's at the center of everything that happens. >> that's absolutely right, nicole. he is absolutely at the center of every action because as you and i have talked about for many months, he's almost like the wizard behind the green curtain pulling every one of those levers. increasingly more desperately as the week goes on from the election up until the certification of the vote on know. >> jan 6th because each lever he tries to pull doesn't result in the payoff that he's hoping for. you know, first it's let's just get georgia to tell people that the election was fraudulent and needs to be investigated. let's get my acting attorney general to just say that it was corrupt and i'll take it from there. let's get an executive order rolling so we'll seize voting

machines and the subject of that off the hook, unhinged december 18th meeting in the oval office. donald trump is again, the lever puller in all of them including demanding that they change the speech for the january 6th rally at the last minute to include the most, you know, vitriolic element which is to paint a target on vice president pence's back if he doesn't do what donald trump has been beseeching him to do for at least a week which is not certify the election and toss it up in the air. it's not constitutional. it's not legal for the vice president at that time to do this, but that's what trump wants. as for the investigation by the justice department i think there's a lot more to it that we don't see right now, and i hope we'll be reporting in the near-term that there will be good reporting and katie's has

been amazing, of course, but i think there is more to it and that is not hopeful and that is not negative or speculative. it's just my informed -- it's my informed sense that that is -- that there's more to it. >> it sounds like there's some reporting under way. >> is there anything else you can tell us or let me ask this specific question. do you have reason to believe that katie's reporting makes very clear that what has accelerated is the reporting into the fake electors scheme and the reason it goes as high as jeffrey clark who was at doj and john eastman who was a regular in the west wing is because the fake elector's plot is under criminal investigation of doj. do you have evidence that something other than that is under scrutiny by doj, carol? >> i think i'll answer the question this way which is that the department of justice is exactly as katie describes, watching this hearing with -- with -- on tenterhooks, to be fair because they want to see what do we not know?

what do we not have and they found a few of those things. they remain keenly interested in the things that come up through that testimony, and yet they have their own bundle of fun that they're looking through themselves. so i would just say stay tuned. i think there's going to be more. >> so, rick, i'm glad they're watching because liz cheney is treating part of the hearings as sort of a beginner's guide to trump's felony crimes. here she is talking about his latest attempt at personally potentially attempted witness tampering. >> our committee commonly asks witnesses connected to mr. trump's administration or campaign whether they've been contacted by any of their former colleagues or anyone else who attempted to influence or impact their testimony? here's how one witness described phone calls from people interested in that witness's

testimony. quote, what they said to me is as long as i continue to be a team player they know i'm on the right team. i'm doing the right thing. i'm protecting who i need to protect. you know i'll continue to stay in good graces in trump world, and they have reminded me a couple of times that trump does read transcripts, and just keep that in mind as i proceed through my interviews with the committee. here's another sample in a different context. this is a call received by one of our witnesses. quote, a person let me know you have your deposition tomorrow. he wants me to let you know he's thinking about you. he knows you're loyal and you're going to do the right thing when you go in for your deposition.

>> so, rick, that was the first time we heard about -- the first time the committee publicly sent this sort of warning that, you know, we see you and then obviously this week they invoked the actions of the call made by donald trump himself to one of their witnesses. what do you make of the assessment from carol and katie and barb that this is very much working in a direction that it normally doesn't. it's not -- doj usually doesn't like to follow congress in any investigation, but in this instance there's no evidence that that's not what's happening. . >> yes. it's complicated and to talk about the witness tampering that you just alluded to and the dialogue there, i mean it goes back to what we've been saying for years that mob boss is the template and the way to understand donald trump. that dialogue there could have been from the godfather. the godfather knows you'll do the right thing. he's watching you.

he reads the transcripts, but to the larger point, i hope carol is right. i hope it's an iceberg analogy of what's going on at the justice department is below what we can see. at liz cheney's closing remarks yesterday, actually were a fantastic road map for a case against donald trump from not only from witness tampering, from intimidation of witnesses and from obstruction of a civil procedure, of a conspiracy to defraud the united states and of seditious conspiracy. i thought the highlight of the hearing was the explanation of that tweet on december 18th when after the crazy meeting where donald trump was finally talked out of doing something extra legal, but peaceful, he tweeted something that invoked the whirlwind that invoked violence that actually put him over into seditious conspiracy. i think they laid that out

beautifully for the justice department and for the american people. >> the other part that was so notable in the context of this conversation, katie benner, it was full of solid burns, but also this very sharp rebuke of the notion that donald trump was anything other than the ringleader. let me play this from liz cheney's opening statement. liz cheney really condemns the notion that trump was along for the ride or willfully blind to the facts. >> the strategy is to blame people his advisors called, quote, the crazies for what donald trump did. this, of course, is nonsense. president trump is a 76-year-old man. he is not an impressionable child. just like everyone else in our country, he is responsible for his own actions and his own choices. donald trump had access to more detailed and specific information showing that the election was not actually stolen

than almost any other american, and he was told this over and over again. no rational or sane man in his position could disregard that information and reach the opposite conclusion, and donald trump cannot escape responsibility by being willfully blind nor can any argument of any kind excuse president trump's behavior during the violent attack on january 6th. >> katie benner, how are these -- these are rebukes for the justice department's inaction in the view of liz cheney. how are they landing at doj? >> so for the justice department, for top officials they say they're just not landing at all and they completely ignore them and they have no interest in that sort of pressure, but what is happening whether or not the justice department acknowledges it is that liz cheney is having an impact on the american public. she's having an impact on how people think of the final days

of the trump administration and how people think about january 6th and with comments like that she's hoping to impact the way people think about donald trump's own culpability in the violent attack and in the effort to undo a free and fair election and what that does for the justice department is it raises the stakes for them whether they want to acknowledge it or not and if they are investigating any threads and we know they're investigating the final days of the justice department including the actions of jeffrey clark who tried to usurp the power, and they're investigating the violent riot itself. however, if they never address this kind of behavior by a president of the united states the larger question for the american public will be is the justice department a body it can handle that kind of behavior and that can address it and for the swath of the american public possibly getting larger because of liz cheney, can the justice department address the concern that she has raised and that many people now wonder is it all right for a sitting president to

take these kinds of actions and with inaction by the justice department is the implicit answer yes. >> it is sort of the million dollar question that hangs over all of this and barbara, liz cheney's also skilled at moving public opinion, but also doing it with enough knowledge of some of these legal standards and i know you have some analysis of what a jury will be told on the question of willful ignorance. explain that. >> yes. when she used that phrase yesterday it really caught my ear because it is a concept that comes out in criminal law and it does suggest that she's not only talking about telling the whole story. willful blindness is because we cannot read another person's mind we need to draw inferences about what it is they thought and what it is they knew, and so a jury may be instructed that you may find that donald trump actually knew that he had lost the election, if he ignored a high probability of that fact

just by simply wishing it away. nicole, it's sort of the equivalent of a child putting their hands over their ears and saying i can't hear you, na, na, na, na, i can't hear you when it's time on go to bed. you can't be willfully blind to a fact that's right in front of you. >> and that, carol leonnig, is the barr deposition they are drawing from to prove this point over and over and over again. trump knew he lost. barr knew he lost. when they had the cover of the electors and that's when mitch mcconnell goes to the floor. here's bill barr testifying in his deposition to mark meadows and jared kushner's knowledge that it was over. >> i said, how long -- how long is he going to carry on with this stolen election stuff? where is this going to go? and by that time meadows had

caught up with me and leaving the office and caught up to me and said that -- he said, look, i think that he's becoming more realistic and knows there's a limit to how far he can take this. jared said we're working on this. we're working on it. >> this is so important because somewhere along the line the plan changes, right? somewhere along the line meadows isn't working on it at all, as cassidy hutchinson testified to, meadows switches from thinking there's anything to the fraud claims to thinking he's going to go with the constitutional loophole plot by john eastman. >> i'm so glad you focus in on this moment, nicole, because when katie was making her very good point about essentially is the department of justice, are

the institutions of our country strong enough to protect our democracy and to protect us from a president who decides to attack it, i was thinking about some of the things that bill barr told donald trump. when you get to this question that barbara raised of what's inside donald trump's mind, put it on a time line. donald trump is confronted on december 1 with bill barr essentially dropping a pile of dog poop in front of the president's face. he tells there is no evidence of fraud. he is summoned to the white house where he is screamed at like a lion breathing down the neck of an antelope like, how dare you say this. barr explains to him, i have an entire team of investigators and we looked at all of these and they're all b.s. and what does

the president do? throws a plate at the wall. he is angry at the answer, and he wants to know why can't you change the answer? another part that gets to donald trump's state of mind whether he knew this was all b.s., and while the person most suited to tell him the factual answer had already said no, his acting attorney general, donoghue says to him -- forgive me, his acting deputy attorney general says to him, mr. president, we can't just change the results of the election. we can't just go to georgia and say this isn't true, and donald trump says, no, no, no. i'm not asking you to do that. just say it's corrupt and we'll take it from there. also -- >> yeah. >> it gets to the state of mind does donald trump believe the election is fraudulent in that moment with donoghue? no. he is saying essentially, just say the words i want you to say, dude, and i feel like those two things together are pretty

powerful to knowing that and then what's the crowning moment, the one you just provided? that meadows says i think we're getting him there to realizing he can't keep pushing this b.s. and jared is also trying to work on the president not continuing to fight the truth. >> it makes them all such failures at imparting the truth on the ex-president, and are i don't know if it was lions or antelopes, but it was a perfect visual. carol leonnig, thank you very much for contributing. if trump was at the center of it all, there's a lot of evidence he was, he was left there or accompanied there by a very agreeable chief of staff named mark meadows. we'll look at what sort of legal peril other people in trump world might be facing after what we learned from the committee this week. plus, one of the witnesses we heard from yesterday testified

to, quote, very, very violent individuals organizing to come to washington on january 6th. former d.c. homeland security chief darnell hovland will join us. a republican party that failed and is failing to call out the ex-president when it had multiple opportunities to do so. that enabling, contributing to the chaos and violence that all landed on the steps and inside the u.s. capitol. those stories when deadline white house continues after a quick break. stay with us. break. stay with us

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i want to read this to you in "rolling stone" today, investigators on capitol hill have shown a willingness to investigate meadows' private dealings about how he directly aided trump to cling to power. according to two sources familiar with the matter, the january 6th committee has asked some witnesses specific questions about med owes' financial arrangements with other trump advisors who sought to overturn president joe biden's 2020 victory. the line of questioning made it clear to witnesses that the committee members were searching for signs of legally dubious payments. this caught our eye because it is so classic in the what was said about it or covered before. what do you think? >> i thought it was incriminating. i think he's in grave legal jeopardy. i believe also in the story there's an anecdote about him telling a trump staffer not to

quit after the election was over because trump plans on serving a second term, but to your point earlier about trump being the prime mover here, if he's that man then mark meadows is robin. he was at every place that trump was and he was aiding and abetting him. a lot of people are honest to the chief of staff to the president than the president himself so meadows heard everybody that understood that trump lost the election. there is no way he can plead willful ignorance of that. >> that's such a good point. katie, i want to come back to your story. there's a line about hutchinson's testimony getting their attention and i wanted to press you on this. some of her explosive assertions that mr. trump knew some of his supporters at a rally on january 6th remember armed. they desperately wanted to join them as they marched to the capitol and that the white house's top lawyer feared trump's conduct could lead to criminal charges and it grabbed

their attention. mark meadows has already been scrutinized and evaluated for his contempt of congress violation which they ultimately did charge, but mark meadows is guilty of all those things, too. were they not familiar with the conduct or were they not familiar that trump had knowledge of it? >> specifically what cassidy hutchinson was going to say and also keep in mind the contempt of congress charge that the justice department examined that was on the narrow issue whether he should be criminally charged for not providing information and testimony to the committee which is a very narrow thing to look at. so one of the interesting things about meadows in general is to rick's point and your points, he does seem to know everything. he is a conduit for all sorts of information and in our reporting in "the washington post," politico and many others we see a chief of staff who wants to have it all ways.

he will say anything to anyone he's speaking with happy, and he doesn't want to commit to anyone in his text messages. however, if he were allowing behavior that you know to be illegal to continue that is something that could be scrutinized. >> barbara, i want to ask you about mark meadows. it began with all of his documents were subpoenaed and i think it's a fair assertion to say much of the early gold mine of evidence they had came from meadows' texts and other data that he turned over. when he decided not to cooperate, we focused on what katie is talking about, the con term. of congress and it is clear that he had a lot more criminal exposure. if a federal judge described eastman and trump capable of

committing felonies. meadows was the third amigo there. what do you make of his exposure? >> he can find himself as a co-conspirator because he's present in all of these meetings and not just physically present, but facilitating meetings and he's traveling to georgia and all of those things put him at the heart of the storm. at some point the justice department will have to make a decision about whether they see him as a defendant or as a better witness because if he were to tell the truth on everything he knows about, he could deliver the goods on trump. that could subpoena him before a grand jury and if and when he invokes his fifth amendment right against self-incrimination and granting him use immunity for using his statements against him so that he could be a witness and he could be compelled to produce a testimony. that's a tough call because it means surrendering his statements and not being able to use them against the trial, but

it doesn't mean he cannot be charged. it just means his own statements can't be used against him and he's not testifying at the moment, it doesn't seem like they're giving up a whole lot anyway. i think that is the big question that the justice department is going to have to face sooner than later. >> can you say in your judgment or would you need information on whether he'd make a better target or witness? >> i think the best way is you work your way up with people like cassidy hutchinson and others to prove his criminal exposure, charge him and then try to get him to flip and testify in a change for a reduction in sentence. that would be the ideal way to approach him. >> it is so interesting without trump there to hand out pardons like party favors you might actually get to the truth. katie benner, thank you for being here and for bringing us back to your reporting on monday. it is very important. barbara and rick, stick around. up next for us, one of the few people who had deep concerns about violence on january 6th

and said so became an important witness for the select committee this week on just how the mob was summoned to washington and how their interests aligned. he will be our next guest and we'll can him how he thinks the committee's investigation is proceeding. stay with us. tee's investigatios proceeding stay with us

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we got derogatory information suggesting that

very, very violent individuals were organizing to come to d.c. and not only were they organizing to come to d.c., but they were -- these groups, these non-aligned groups were all aligning and so all of the red flags went up at that point. you know when you have militia collaborating with white supremacy groups collaborating with conspiracy theory groups online all toward a common goal you start seeing what we call a terrorism of blended ideology and that's a very, very bad sign. >> some of the most harrowing testimony we heard yesterday was from a taped deposition from a witness named donnell harv in. he's appeared on this show in the past. it was part of of a mountain of evidence that the know. >> jan 6th select committee, how

he summoned the mob. he has testified before the committee several times now about what he tried to raise the alarms about on that day and leading up to it and what they were seeing forming in response to trump's tweet of december 19th, very violent, far-right groups uniting across multiple online platforms where they publicly coordinated and transformed into the violent mob we all watched see it through. joining us now is donnell harvin, we've spoken before and -- and they're so haunting in their accuracy of what came to pass. what is it like to watch the 1/ 6 committee 18 months later as part of making your case against donald trump? >> well, it was a little numbing

for me having to re-live it as well as hearing those words. i want to remind you, nicole that a lot of the things that we were seeing before january 6th were done in plain sight. it didn't dawn on me until yesterday as to why these individuals weren't trying to hide what they were doing. they thought that what they were doing was a legal action called upon by the president, to be quite honest with you, and i think that's the case that the january 6th committee is making, and you see that borne out in a lot of these court cases purpose they were called to the capitol. they were responding to a call. in hindsight in my role of doing intelligence i didn't appreciate that. i just saw a threat in a threat environment and we reported it. now as a witness to all the facts that the january 6th committee is bringing forth, i see it for what it was and you talked about that in your lead-in. it was a call to arms. they called out the worst and the most violent individuals that we have in this country to

descend upon the capitol on that day. >> my colleague chris hayes made the point last night that the mob became the weapon and it reminded me of the after-action analysis after 9/11 when the airplanes became the missiles. do you see the mob and the combination of the violent extremist groups and the individuals like stephen ayres who responded to trump's tweet and came to washington to stop the steal in his own testimony? do you see the mob that way? were they the weapon that donald trump deployed? >> absolutely. nicole, wield aren't be here if there wasn't a tweet that galvanized a very violent faction, and i've said this before and i'll say it again. if it were just trump supporters who were vociferous and participating in non-violent first amendment activities there would have not been a january 6th in the way that you're showing it on the screen right now. the call to arms went to the

most violent individuals that we all know that are violent and that were standing back and standing by, and we know that those words were said and we know that they responded to that in full force and they started planning in full view, in plain view of all of the authorities. they weren't hide. they were planning on how to bring guns. they were planning on sharing information on how to enter the capitol. blueprints, floor plans, if you will. so this is what we saw on that day and it is being borne out right now by the january 6th hearings. >> when you hear the testimony of cassidy hutchinson who makes clear that trump knew not just who was there because as you said, he invited them, but what they were carrying, how they were armed. he was aware that there were ar-15s on flds in trees and he was informed according to

cassidy hutchinson that they had self-fashioned spears and they said take down the mags. they're not going to hurt me. what do you hear as a counter terrorism and homeland security expert? >> for me, that was probably the most disappointing part of all the testimony. sitting where we were sitting, watching this unfold, we were hoping that -- that those in the federal government had done everything they could have done to stop this. after hearing her testimony it was clear to me that not only was this invited, but it was enabled and that's a sad day for the country that a sitting president would not do everything within their power to protect all government facilities as well as the capitol, and our most precious of democratic processes which is the peaceful transfer of power. if she says -- if what she says is true, and i have no reason to doubt her, then that was not the

case on that day. all americans can make their own decisions, but i've made mine. >> a lot of us watching the insurrection live were searching for some explanation and almost the brain's adaptive abilities were searching frantically to say what you said happened and why trump did nothing. it wasn't an absence of action. it was complicit in the violence. do you see it that way? >> i can't tell you what happened within the walls of the white house and of the so-called war room. i would suggest that maybe he didn't -- not only like what was happening and that individuals may have planned this out and that's the conspiracy that i believe the conspiracy is drawing to and we'll have to see in the final arguments that they

present, but this was not happenstance. this was not just some mob that showed up and things got carried away. this was planned in advance. the information was there for everyone to see. the intelligence was there. the question was why was it not stopped and we're looking forward to the hearing. >> donnell harvin, someone who warned of a mass casualty, vent and warned one of the hospitals to be ready, who more than just about anyone else that we've talked to saw this coming. thank you very much for spending some time with us today to talk about your testimony. we are grateful to you. >> thank you, nicole. senator lindsay graham has told a special grand jury in georgia investigating donald trump's attempts to overturn the 2020 election results that he has no intention of honoring a subpoena. a judge saw it differently and told lindsay graham he does not have a choice. we'll bring you that story next. have a choice. we'll bring you that story next.

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after declaring in a trumpy manner last week that he would not comply with the subpoena, a judge has ordered senator lindsay graham to comply with the subpoena and testify in front of a grand jury in georgia as the county d.a. continues her investigation into the ex-president's attempts to in his own words, find votes and flip the results of the 2020 election in the state of georgia. that judge called graham a,

quote, necessary and materiel witness to the investigation and says will be required to testify on august 2nd. for his part lindsey graham has filed court paperwork this afternoon to formally challenge the subpoena. we are back with barbara mccade. it's interesting to me, barbara mcquade, that everyone wants to be like trump, but it doesn't work out for them the way it does for trump. it illustrates how far trump has degraded the rule of law that someone who is a sitting senator seeks to defy a subpoena. >> yeah. he has no legal basis to refuse to comply with the subpoena. there's an old adage in the law that says the government is entitled to every man's evidence and there's no exception for a sitting senator and no exception that even if you believe it is politically motivated and he lives out of state and a court has to make a finding that he was a materiel and necessary witness and a court his done that, and so he will lose and he

can kick and scream all he wants and at the end of the day, he's going to get the witnesses she wants, but he admits to have made a call to brad raffensperger and she's entitled to know what was in the call and ultimately he will lose that battle. >> like the 1/6 committee, a lot of people have participated and a lot of republicans who were on the receiving end and it just makes me think in the same way that liz cheney is able to share with her colleagues on the committee the deep, dark, underbelly of the house republican caucus because she was in it once, brad raffensperger and gabe sterling and others cooperated with bonnie willis in her criminal probe have likely already shared a lot of information. lindsay graham isn't just going to lose. lindsay graham who will probably face a prosecutor who already knows a whole lot. >> yes. in fact, the thing about the

lindsay graham call and can you find the 12,000 votes which echoes the donald trump call is it does speak to the state of mind. they knew that they had lost the election and they weren't calling to say can you find the fraud? canlose. has to remind everybody the republican party was once the party of law and order, the party that believed everybody had to answer subpoenas that they were lawfully obligated to do that. now they're not anymore. . well, i mean, the thing now is they think only their political enemies have to answer them and their ilk are insulated from accountability.

i wonder, barbara when you look at this investigation from the outside, what is your sense of how advanced it is. >> fani willis's investigation in georgia? >> yeah, exactly. she seems to be much farther along. as we just heard from carol leonnig, we don't know all the things that are happening in the justice department. the fact that she's got all of these people coming to the grand jury in short order does suggest that she's far along. you typically don't want to put those witnesses in until you feel like you have exploited all of the documents so that people can't come in and lie to you, so that you can confront them with emails and bank statements and phone rortds. the fact that she's already at the stage that she's calling witnesses to a grand jury suggests she's farther along. her case is a little more finite than the justice department's. it relates solely to the activity with regard to georgia, not the entire 800 people at the capitol and the national scope

of it. but nonetheless, she seems to be working at a swift pace. i think it gives us all hope this can be done. >> thank you both so much for spending so much time with us today. we are grateful. up next for us, a look at president joe biden's first day on his overseas trip and his stop in the middle east. we'll show you that next. e midd. that can scale across all your clouds... we got that right? yeah, we got that. it's easier to be an innovator. we'll show you that next so you can do more incredible things. [whistling] i gotta say moving in together has been awesome. so you can do more inc no regrets.gs. for you and emily. these are... amazing.

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jerusalem today as part of his trip to the middle east this week. returning to israel's official holocaust memorial 12 years after he visited as vice president. president biden stood alongside israeli and american leaders at the hall of remembrance where he was invited to rekindle the eternal flame that commemorates the 6 million jews who were killed during world war ii. president biden also participated in a wreath laying ceremony bending down to touch a red, white, and blue wreath laid down by two u.s. marines. then kneeling quietly to speak can two holocaust survivors, both of them americans. according to "the new york times," president biden added his name to the memorial's visitor book, writing this, quote, we must never ever forget because hate is never defeated. it only hides. up next for us, the january 6th hearings and the enabling of donald trump by the gop. we'll get into that after a quick break. don't go anywhere. tha

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nah. no. nope. - hell no. - no. american carnage, that's donald trump's true legacy. his desire to overthrow the people's election and seize the presidency, interrupt the counting of electoral college votes for the first time in american history nearly toppled the constitutional order and brutalized hundreds and hundreds of people. the watergate break-in was like a cub scout meeting compared to this assault on our people and our institutions. >> hi again, everyone, it's 5:00 in the east. with every new detail that is

revealed, every scandalous, dramatic behind the scenes story told, every old text message sent without thinking they'd ever be read aloud, the picture of the ex-president's conduct leading up to and on january 6th gets fuller and much more alarming. and while it is vitally important to understand that the ex-president came this close to undoing american democracy at the time, he remains a very potent threat today, and so it is equally important to remember that he did not and he does not act alone. he wasn't as enabled by people around him who were amplifying him or in many instances doing nothing, remaining silent, have fed into the ex-president's dangerous solutions and conduct. "the washington post" reported an extremely revealing quote by senior republican officials who said this, quote, what's the

downside of humoring him for a little bit of time? no one seriously thinks the results will change. except donald trump. but it is the people who decided to humor him, people who stayed quiet, let him cry it out as his rhetoric escalated, his lies escalated and the dangerous people he tapped in to organize, they're the reason we're all here today. take former white house counsel pat cipollone whose testimony to the january 6th select committee we heard for the very first time yesterday. >> there was a real question in my mind and a real concern, you know, particularly after the attorney general had reached the conclusion that there wasn't sufficient election fraud to change the outcome of the election. when other people kept suggesting that there was, the answer is what is the end. at some point you have to put up or shut up. that was my view. >> there was never any fraud.

there was never any fraud, there was never any evidence. pat cipollone knew the president was lying and spreading those lies. he knew it was dangerous and he knew precisely what those dangers were. he would do anything, he wanted to talk to the january 6th committee last friday. in fact, more than almost anyone else, he enabled trump for the two years prior to all of this while he served as white house counsel in the donald trump white house. in january 2020 he defended trump ugh during the senate trial for his first impeachment. watch. >> you know what the right answer is in your heart. you know what the right answer is for our country. you know what the right answer is for the american people. what they are asking you to do is to throw out a successful president on the eve of an election with no basis and in

violation of the constitution, it would dangerously change our country and weaken, weaken forever all of our democratic institutions. >> you could change the word a successful president with successful candidate for president and he could be testifying or defending -- he could be testifying for joe biden and against donald trump in his second impeachment. but when it came time for trump's second impeachment, republicans enabled trump in an even more dangerous way. senate republicans voted not to impeach him not because he wasn't guilty, they thought he was guilty. they acquitted him on a technicality arguing that the trial took place after he left office. senator mitch mcconnell after slamming trump's actions and basically calling on doj to investigate and prosecute him, gave a lame excuse for not doing so himself. he said, quote, we have no power to conviction and disqualify a former office holder who's now a

private citizen. there were republicans who admitted to letting trump off the hook without knowing the full picture and basically knew the full picture would get worse. when casting his vote back in january of 2021, republican congress michael mccaul of texas said this quote, i will with a heavy heart impose impeachment at this time. i did not come to this decision lightly, and i truly fear there may be more facts that come to light in the future that will put me on the wrong side of this debate. each 1/6 committee hearing brings more and more facts to light, facts that the republicans knew, we know they knew from the mccarthy tapes that the "new york times" revealed. and even today, where are they? where are the republicans? the ongoing enabling of donald trump and the danger he poses to our democracy is where we start the hour with some of our most favorite reporters and friends. ashley parker is here, "washington post" white house bureau chief and an msnbc political analyst, also joining us, someone i'm so excited to talk to, amanda carpenter, a

columnist for the bulwark. the emancipator, a project with the globe that focuses on racial equity and justice, also an msnbc contributor, and former republican congressman david jolly is here, national chairman of the serve america movement and an msnbc political analyst. ashley, i got to speak to your colleague and wingman and co-writer, co-byline on so many of those epic trump reporting feats where 38 to 58 trump insiders are quoted as saying, you know, i know he's insane, i know he's uninformed, i know he's disrespectful but. that's how we got here. talk about that as a repeat theme and excuse structure for everything that happened. >> sure, so we had those people who would claim privately in the moment and then later sometimes when they left the administration that they were the guardrails.

that, you know, if they hadn't been there things would have been worse. as bad as that decision or that meeting in the oval office or that you couldn't imagine how bad it would have been if they had not been there. so in one sense that was a reason how a lot of people justified it to themselves and their colleagues,ing how they were able to serve in the trump administration. now there is, to be fair, a kernel of truth to that. you in your run up laid out a pretty damning indictment of pat cipollone. although when you go to that december meeting, in between the factions of sidney powell, mike flynn, giuliani, cipollone is sort of a voice for reason, but it is a voice for reason in a structure where reason is saying you can't storm the capitol and overturn the results of a free and fair election. so it's a stunningly low bar.

>> yeah, i mean, david jolly, i refuse to become a hostage to the laws of relativity. i mean, if our democracy is sort of the victim of abuse, maybe cipollone wasn't kicking our democracy, but he certainly wasn't jumping up and down and trying to save it until he ended up in the oval office watching mike flynn and sidney powell and some guy he'd never seen or heard of before, the overstock.com guy in his sworn testimony trying to burn it down. what do you make of how relative to the worst actors we hold up the better ones? >> well, i think it's important we don't fall for the mere contrast because the truth is there are no heroes in the room in this moment. the heroes were the ones who would have spoken up at the time, who would have rung the alarm bell at the time, who had a duty to the constitution and the country ahead of both a duty to the president but also to their own political and career self-interests.

and you know, nicolle, when you were playing that opening package, i remembered an old bible verse where your treasure is there your heart will be. i think what we're seeing is people who are motivated by their own self-interest, by their own treasure. and whether that was power or proximity to power or career advancement or political advancement, those were the actors around donald trump from the time he came on the stage. and we know that the party leaders refused to reject him in '16, but they also refused to isolate him even as he served, right? the leaders on the hill never had to embrace the trump agenda. they certainly don't do that with the democratic president. they could have acted with relative autonomy and largely ignored some of the president's agenda, but they chose not to. they got into bed with him, and the reason why is obvious, because they would have lost what was important to them, power. which then leads us i think to a real fundamental question, a challenging one, which is they would have lost power because over 60 million people in the country supported this president, and over 70 million

supported him again in 2020. the country largely -- half of the country largely decided to affirm donald trump's behavior. that's a much broader cultural question than it is a political one for our leaders. >> yeah, amanda, this is something you know a whole lot about, and i want to be clear, i'm grateful to pat cipollone for responding to his congressional subpoena and sitting for a deposition for eight hours last friday. i'm grateful to cassidy hutchinson for painting such a vibrant picture of what was going on. i just think it's important not to follow any of these moments out the window, relative to sidney powell and mike flynn and donald trump, they were the better angles inside that west wing, but that is saying something. >> yeah, i mean, i guess one way to look at the january 6th committee investigation is not just an investigation into donald trump and what took place that day but the broader universe of people who

surrounded him. i mean, think about what is the difference between that second impeachment hearing where you had pat cipollone defending trump and what is happening now? the key difference is that republicans of conscience were welcomed into the fold by democrats to pursue this investigation, and nancy pelosi deserves all the credit for putting liz cheney on that committee because i do believe it has made all of the difference. for too long, these republicans have been able to hide out and silently enable trump without having those questions posed directly to them. there's no way pat cipollone would have been giving that testimony had liz cheney not pursued it, put him on the spot and publicly said that he desperately needed to hear from him. cassidy hutchinson -- we would not know cassidy hutchinson's name were it not for the january 6th committee, and i'm really interested in something that mitch mcconnell said the other day when he was approached in the hallway by a reporter who asked him, you know, what do you

think of these revelations from the committee? and he essentially said, well, i'm going to wait until everything's finished and i'll have a comment when the report is out. he doesn't want to say anything. this wasn't like the second impeachment where all the republicans fell in line because this is a republican accountability project. republicans like mitch mcconnell can't just ignore what people like pat cipollone bill barr, cassidy hutchinson and others are saying. this time it truly is different. >> and it feels different, kim. i mean, i think there is this careful line to just have your eye on it, and i appreciate amanda's point so much. speaker pelosi does deserve the credit for trusting liz cheney and adam kinzinger with this vital mission. i want to read something that chris reed reported this morning. refuses our republicans to hold trump accountable has led to more chaos. instead of a bipartisan political conviction, the gop's punt set the stage for

congressional democrats along with republicans liz cheney and adam kinzinger, the justice department and gop primary voters to be the final arbiters of trump's conduct. all that's done is put more pressure on our institutions. a deeply divided congress, a skittish justice department, a political party that's nominated trump twice as well as members who guessed correctly that there would be more damaging revelations to come. that's where we are. how are you feeling today about whether the skittish justice department or the republican party who in amanda's words is hearing from all trump insiders breaks or changes or does something different than they've done for the last five years? >> yeah, i mean, i don't know what the justice department will do. as an attorney, i feel like there is so much basis for an investigation, but i do know that merrick garland is meticulous and careful and thoughtful, so these things will move more slowly than we want.

but one thing that i've really come away with in terms of how republicans writ large see what's happening, particularly with yesterday's hearing, is that what we saw was the president -- evidence that the president called on not only right wing groups like the oath keepers and the proud boys, but also really galvanized everyday americans with language that was false, with propaganda to encourage them to come to washington, d.c., and fight for a lie. what that is is radicalization. if this was done in the name of al qaeda or of isis, we would have the republican party all over this, but what we saw is that exact same thing happening to american citizens that led up to an attempted coup at the capitol. and that is what the fbi, the justice department, and americans should see it very plainly for. i'm very grateful for the

testimony of people like steven ayers who came forward and said, yeah, i was tricked. i thought that this was something real because i was believing what the president was saying, and i think that that is the measure that we should use in evaluating this. >> yeah, i mean, and i'm grateful for the testimony of the trump campaign folks who are now sharing how alarmed they were by the nexus between trump and his campaign and violence. let me show you some of congresswoman stephanie murphy's testimony about brad parscale's tweets, ashley. >> president trump's former campaign manager brad parscale recognized the impact of the speech immediately, and this is what he said on january 6th, an excerpt of text messages from katrina pierson. mr. parscale said, quote, this is about trump pushing for uncertainty in our country. a sitting president asking for civil war, and then when he said this week i feel guilty for

helping him win. katrina pierson responded, you did what you felt right at the time, and therefore it was right. mr. parscale added, yeah, but a woman is dead and, yeah, if i was trump and i knew my rhetoric killed someone. when ms. peerson replied, it wasn't the rhetoric. >> mr. pascale said, katrina, yes, it was. >> they knew they got people to do these dangerous, violent things to mike pence, who he also worked for. when you work for the campaign you work for the top of the campaign, but they knew that those words and the lies killed somebody. >> and there's -- going back to the initial conversation, there's a couple types of enabling, right? there's the people who held the president, former president what he wants to hear about the conspiracy theories, and then there's the people who privately

know better and do nothing and brad parscale, those texts are pretty devastating and damning, but he's probably the only person who privately shared the view that as he all but says, there's blood on trump's hands. he's a sitting president calling for a civil war. his rhetoric got someone killed and did nothing about it. and there's a central irony here, which is if you were to give truth serum to republicans in congress, not all of them, but the majority and certainly more than half would say they wish donald trump would just disappear, kind of go away in a rumple still skin style poof of smoke. that's what they would like. and there was this moment right after impeachment or not impeachment, rather right after january 6th leading up to the second impeachment, where that could have happened, where americans had witnessed this scene as representative raskin said of american carnage and did not side with donald trump, and

if the republicans who knew better and were privately texting their friends and calling their friends and then telling reporters to come out and distance themselves from him, that would have been potentially the tipping point where he would have been a one-term president who retired and went off into obscurity, but that's not what they did. there was about 72 hours where it looked like that might happen. lindsey graham on the senate floor, kevin mccarthy was very angry, and then kevin mccarthy goes to mar-a-lago, poses for that photo with trump, lindsey graham begins golfing with him, and everything is the same as it ever was despite there being a deadly insurrection on the u.s. capitol. >> and david jolly, i guess the tragedy is they could still do it. we are living as a country with a nearly unprecedented threat of domestic violence extremism tied to the grievance and this ongoing belief that the election was stolen from donald trump, which we know it was not, as kim

said, steven ayers provided that testimony in an incredibly compelling way and some of the other things covid restrictions and others, they're the heart of what threatens the homeland today. they could still get rid of him. they could watch these hearings and say i've seen evidence that he knew of the violence, that he wanted to participate in the violence. cipollone tried to say he deserves a presidential medal of freedom. they choose every morning when they wake up to continue to elevate donald trump. >> you're exactly right, nicolle. the nation remains in peril because the political party that formerly was the party of lincoln and eisenhower and reagan, today has decided to elevate a man that uniquely challenges the very constitutional architecture of the united states, and i think that's where -- look, i think the information of cassidy hutchinson and cipollone and parscale and others is helpful, but all of these people knew who donald trump was from the beginning. we all knew it. we all saw it.

we saw it as he challenged fundamental freedoms of religion, fundamental freedoms of the press, fundamental freedoms of the judiciary and courts. we saw a policy that left a diapered young child dead at the border because of failed immigration policy, additional gun shootings, shootings in schools and gun violence, a failed covid policy that led to dead americans. so to say on january 6th, oh, i didn't see this coming. i didn't see a president that was willing to risk the lives of his own countrymen, of our own citizens for his own self-interest and his own political interest. and so as a staffer, as an administration appointee, as a voter, i'm still going to go along with this man? that is the danger, and the only way this gets decided is not inside the beltway. it is through the inevitable presidential primary and the republican nomination process between donald trump and ron desantis. do enough republican voters decide we're not sticking with donald trump? i don't know who wins that contest. >> i would hope for more

choices, but we'll see on the other side of the break. everyone sticks around. the january 6th committee has raised expectations and at every turn exceeded them, so with that in mind, what should we expect from the committee's prime time hearing next week, and with the disgraced twice impeached ex-president was doing for more than three hours while his supporters attacked the capitol and the men and women who protected it. plus, the house and senate today both zeroing in on the impact of the supreme court's decision to overturn roe versus wade and what it means to the millions of american women who are now barred from accessing health care like abortion. later we'll tell you about one silver lining for democrats potentially in that decision, the attention being paid to politics, the boost they're seeing in polls ahead of this fall's midterm. deadline white house continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. house

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last month on june 28th, sergeant gonell's team of doctors told him the permanent injuries he has suffered to his left shoulder and right foot now make it impossible for him to continue as a police officer. he must leave policing for good and figure out the rest of his life. sergeant we wish you and your family the best. we are here for you. we salute you for your valor, your eloquence, and your beautiful commitment to america. i wonder what former president trump would say to someone like sergeant gonell who must now go

about making his life. i wonder if he can even understand what motivates a patriot like sergeant gonell. >> we don't know what donald trump would say, but we know what his closest allies in the press said. laura ingraham called them crisis actors. with our panel, david jolly and kimberly atkins. amanda, i want to ask you about the presence of the capitol law enforcement officials in that hearing room for every single public hearing. they were the first witnesses in the first public hearing. they set the standard for what would be the last seven hearings that we've covered. there has never been a change in posture, not just from trump but from his allies in congress. there's never been an apology. there's never been any sort of attempt to redo voting against the medals for them. what do you make of the

republican posture towards the law enforcement officials who protected their lives that day? >> it's absolutely shameful. i mean, number one, my -- and i think all of our deepest gratitude to those men who not only rushed to the front lines of defense that day when the capitol was attacked but are continuing to rush to the front line in defense of our democracy by showing up every day for those hearings, and i don't know how they found the grace in their hearts to accept apologies from some of those white nationalists in the hearing yesterday, but somehow they did. and i think it is all down to the amount of courage and grace that they have on a continual basis. that said, the republicans who continue to disgrace their service by suggesting somehow this is a failure of security, that's why there was a breach on capitol hill that day, there was a report just today that republicans are considering issuing their report about the security failure that led to the breaches that day. we know that's garbage. there's one reason why there was

a security failure that day, and it's because donald trump wound up the mob, spun them to the capitol and told them to fight. one of the most amazing revelations yesterday that took place was the text messages that revealed that rally organizers knew that donald trump was going to unexpectedly call on the crowd to march to the capitol, and they knew they had to keep it secret and under wraps because it would cause trouble. there was a draft tweet where donald trump was going to instruct them publicly so that it's undeniable this information that's coming out that donald trump alone is the reason for the attack on the capitol, and they're still going to search -- these republicans are going to search for every excuse to look away from that fact, but it is our job as members of the media, people looking at the midterm elections to not shy away from that, and i understand that some people are trying to get away from this problem by saying, you know what? it's okay. it's time to move on from donald trump and maybe go on to ron desantis in 2024, but no, we can

decide some of this now in 2022 at the midterms when all these maga trump election denying, insurrection apologist republicans on the ballot. >> well, it's ironic that they're going to produce a report, kim, because 20 of them were in the white house helping to plan the events of january 6th. so i wonder if there will be little footnotes in that report. i want to show you something about what may thompson said about what comes next. this is next thursday's prime time hearing. potentially the last, but it doesn't seem like the committee is quite done with their investigation yet. let me show you what he had to say. >> thank good our system of government held in spite of a commander in chief who worked in opposition to what the constitution designed. when this committee reconvenes, we'll tell the story of that supreme dereliction by the commander in chief, how close we came to a catastrophe for our democracy, and how we remain in

serious danger. >> it's something that don wood, who's a former investigator for the committee left and did some interviews, he talked about how -- what his big takeaway was, what all the evidence points to, it's just how close we came. that is what the committee has been building to with this hearing next week. >> yes, and what i expect them also to address is that this isn't a done deal. this isn't something that was one and done. it's that this can happen again. that's why i disagree with this idea that the goal of republicans should be to somehow get rid of trump, ditch trump, and try to move beyond him with the desantis's, and other people. so long as there is no accountability for this attempt to overturn election results, it will happen again. it won't happen the exact same way that january 6th did. we already see efforts at the state level to elect people who believe in the big lie, to

install them in positions that involve election administration. we see that as a litmus test to this aspect of the republican party that the party can't seem to cut loose. this will last long after donald trump, and i think that's what this committee is getting to the bottom of at how dangerous this is and how it can be replicated and happen again, and i expect it to in 2022, 2024, and beyond. >> and that animates so much of liz cheney and chairman thompson's public sentiment that dealing with trumpism is essential to the committee's mission as anything else. ashley parker, amanda carpenter, kimberly atkins strks tohr, david jolly, thank you so much for starting us off today. when we come back, both houses of congress focused on urgent problem facing millions of women in this country right now. the graphic and dramatic and

sudden reduction in access to reproductive health care since the supreme court overturned roe versus wade. that is next. stay with us. roe versus wade. that is next stay with us

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it's on the brink of demise. >> this is not a drill. that was national women's law center president, a frequent guest on this program, fatima goss grays laying out the stakes of what it means to live in a country without access to abortion. at a congressional hearing today on life in america after roe, the hearing was notable not just for the testimony on that great impact and the lack of access to abortion, but it's already having on women in america. 19 days after the constitutional right to an abortion was stripped away. but also for the complete lack of any relationship to the facts and reality, the distortions and at times down right ignorance. that's being generous, i guess, displayed by republicans while defending their attempts to all women in america what is right for them, for the country, for their health, for their

families. to our audience, i'm sorry that i have to say this, but no, jody hice, women do not give birth to turtles. watch. >> is there any instance of a woman giving birth to something that is not a human being, a baby, like a turtle? >> well, there definitely are instances where people have stillborn -- >> it's still a baby. >> i guess the point is -- >> it's still a person, is it not? >> if i can finish. when the court -- >> -- it did so because the consideration was whether or not the fetus can live outside of the body. >> it's a question of person hood, that's what i'm getting to. so if it is a person after birth, it by extension is a person before birth. >> i really hope people are watching today because the question on the table is about abortion for sure, but actually,

the conversation you're having is about contraception. it's about in vitro fertilization, it's about a whole larger -- >> no, no, you mis -- >> joining us now, congresswoman madeleine dean of pennsylvania, fatima goss graves is here in the flesh, live in the flesh, the president and ceo of the national women's law center, kimberly atkins stohr is still with us. take us inside today, it just feels like such an impasse watching the questioning. did you feel like you were able to convey anything or impart any wisdom on anybody there? >> i'm not sure if you can hear me, but are you even hearing me, nicolle? >> yes. >> okay i have to say it was a

little bit of like a bizarre world inside that committee room. we are hearing from providers and from women and from people over the country who are so deeply disturbed, and inside that hearing room they were trying to tell us that it was no big deal that the supreme court stripped away this fundamental right, and that women would just be okay. it was really hard to understand where they were going, and i also didn't understand the conversation about birthing turtles. it was a really weird back and forth. >> you know, congresswoman dean, what's so offensive is that no one on the choice side treats anyone against access to abortion like they're stupid, but the extreme right treats defenders of choice like we're idiots. does a woman give birth to a baby turtle? i mean what -- it's so insulting and the fact that there can't be

any decorum in these conversations is another symptom of the extremism on the right. >> it truly is, and i have been in such bizarre hearings as that, although i was not in that one today, but the lack of decency, the lack of compassion, actually, the ignorance and lack of understanding of what it is to be pregnant, what it is to decide your own future, plan your own families, that's what's always stunning to me. but this has been a decades' long march to the stripping away of women and girls' rights to privacy, to their self-determination and to their reproductive freedom, so i have to admit to you, i watched it in my own community among a narrow number of folks, faith-based primarily, but what happened here under dobbs is we have a majority on the court, a couple of them seated i think corruptly by an autocrat of a president,

and it turns out they're theo cats, they're actually not six catholics, and i'm a catholic so i say this with respect. they're not six catholics on this court, five of whom voted for the dobbs decision, but they are theocrats, they want their faith to determine everyone else's life. for me it is extraordinary upsetting. my daughters-in-law and my granddaughters will not have the rights, the reproductive freedom i had. we have to do everything, we in congress have to do everything to make sure the supreme court does not have the final say. that's why you see us bringing forward legislation yet again this week to protect women's rights. >> kim, what's so extraordinary about this moment is that both on the court in the thomas opinion, he said we're going further. we're going to do more. we're not just taking away a constitutional right women have had for 50 years. we are doing more and on the american right, they didn't just

say this is what we fought for for so long we're going to celebrate, they said we're going for more extreme. we're going for bans including in the case of rape and incest. we're going for bans in some instances even no exceptions to life of the mother. what's extraordinary is that the decision wasn't an achievement on the right, it was an accelerant, and i wonder what you make of the liability not just to the lives of every woman in america but for the other side to the republican party? >> yeah, i am deeply concerned about this. i mean, one thing that i found extra extraordinary about that change, and fatima, her calmness and poise was exemplary. in this discussion, at no point did they talk about the woman and the person she is and her right in that situation. and they were talking about turtles. i believe justice thomas when he

frankly said he believes the erosion of the fundamental liberty right that underscored roe, about overturning roe that is up for grabs in a number of cases from same-sex marriage to the right to use contraception to the right to engage in private sexual activity in your own home and even interracial marriage even though justice thomas didn't state that outright, that is something that is also based on that same right. i think all of these things are up for grabs, and we are seeing an accelerant. people want to codify dobbs on the right essentially, really outlawing abortion everywhere. i believe them when they say that. the only modifying thing found in that dobbs decision is just alito saying, well, abortion is different and justice kavanaugh in a concurrent saying that it wouldn't. that means you would have to take justice alito and kavanaugh at their word. i would ask senator susan collins about how she feels taking brett kavanaugh on his

word on anything at this point, and i certainly don't. >> everyone sticks around, no one's going anywhere. when we come back, as we started discussing the potential political opportunity, if you can call it that that democrats are already seeing in sochlt some of the polling out in america since the supreme court overturned roe versus wade. stay with us. overturned roe versus wade stay with usthe polling out in e the supreme court overturned roe versus wade. stay with us. the polling out ine the supreme court overturned roe versus wade. stay with us

really important and interesting new polling out today shows just how out of

touch the supreme court and elected republicans are with the mainstream of the american public views on access to abortion. it could very easily hurt the many upcoming midterm elections, not that that does much for women now. 70% of voters oppose laws that would stop people from crossing state lines to access an abortion. 68% of americans oppose state laws that allow private citizens to sue anyone who provides or assists in a procedure, and 60% of republicans oppose the horrifying new trend of state laws that ban all abortions with no exceptions in instances of rape, incest or the life of the mother. all of this flew democrats to a four-point advantage over republicans on a generic ballot. we're back with our panel, congresswoman dean, i start with you, are you seeing this and feeling this in your district and around the country? >> it's interesting you should ask me that.

my team just got back to me that we had taken a sort of a snapshot poll of constituents in my district, and overwhelmingly we asked a single question, by the way. did the court in dobbs overstep its bounds in terms of this decision. 91% of those responded and thousands responded, frankly, said yes, the court had overstepped. it was overwhelmingly clear. we are also in a state where we just had republican majorities in the senate and in the house pass a constitutional amendment against abortion, so we have something to do here, and i want to be clear with voters, we have a job to do. while we need the executives to do everything, we need congress to do everything, voters have to come out. we have to elect pro-choice, anti-filibuster senators. we have the chance in pennsylvania. john fetterman, mandela barnes in wisconsin, tim ryan in ohio,

val demings in florida. we have to get control of the senate so that we can breakthrough the false wall of the filibuster. when you think about it, these supreme court justices passed their nomination, some of them like mr. thomas with only 52 votes. why is it that ourare behind a requiring minority role? 60 votes. we have to break through the filibuster. voters, get to the polls. elect not only face folks, look up and down the ballot. make sure you are elect ding pro-choice members of the pennsylvania house, for example, so we could change the outcome of the elections. >> as times go on, the facts emerge and the picture gets more grades and concerning. at the hearing, maloney said this -- people are being for miscarriages.

republicans are not done. i hate talking about the politics when there are women in 16 states already, no longer have access to abortion. is there an opportunity to tell this tragic story that they can be helped? for the people who can change these policies can help these women? >> what we learned over time, it is political. this is a deeply personal issue. whether you have had an abortion or have been pregnant, or are just thinking about your life and your future, people not recognize that who they have elected matters. we are living into the results of the 2016 election, really. the three supreme court justices that delivered this to

us. these states keep passing laws over again and again, is not what the people in those states want. i don't think you will just share your story with your friend and leave it there. i think people will be going to the polls this year to express their anger and frustration. >> fatima, kimberly atkins. thank you so much for spending time with us today. we are grateful. a quick break for us. we will be right back. a quick break for us. a quick break for us. we will be right ♪ wayfair you've got just what i need ♪

(torstein vo) when you really philosophize about it, there's only one thing you don't have enough of. time is the only truly scarce commodity. when you come to that realization, i think it's very important that you spend your time wisely. and what better way of spending time than traveling, continuing to educate ourselves and broaden our minds? (woman vo) viking. exploring the world in comfort.

a very long overdue happening and honor on capitol hill today. the unveiling of the first statue of a black american at the u.s. capitol national hall. the stateswho represent them. florida chose dr. mary to replace a confederate general. she was a civil rights activist and advisor to president roosevelt. she was the first to receive a formal education. she became an educator herself. best known for orbiting a training school for african- american girls in daytona beach in the year 1904. we will be right back. back.

so you can do more incredible things. [whistling]

stream i think you so much for letting us into your home during these extremely times. hello, welcome to the beat with ari melber. more evidence and more people coming forward. witnesses sharing more in the past few days. all of this comes with the heat on trump and the evidence that he secretly planned the march of the band. also new, trump lawyer, ty cobb defended trump to the hills. now you sa