2021, was arranged by donald trump and his allies, within fact, a specific goal. it wasn't just an expression of anger at the supposedly stolen election. the idea that the mob would somehow disrupt the certification of joe biden's win and then magically, donald trump would stay on as president. no. the plan was to put pressure on republican lawmakers and the vice president, mike pence, to carry out a very specific plan. and that plan was set in motion actually weeks earlier, back on december 14th. that was the day that presidential electors gathered in all 50 states to cast their official electoral college votes for the president of the united states. in states that joe biden won, the democratic electors gathered in states that donald trump won, republican electors gathered. except that in seven states that joe biden won while democrats were gathering to cast their official votes, we

republicans gathered as well, including in the state of georgia. >> democratic party electors met right up there in the senate chambers. they are official, they are certified and they voted for joe biden. but georgia republicans, they met as exactly the same time, right behind those closed doors. they are not official, not certified, they still met and chose donald trump. >> even as democratic party electors were meeting in the georgia state senate for the first time in 28 years to select a democratic vice president and vice president, one floor below, at the state capital, georgia republicans were meeting for their own meeting to select republican electors for donald trump. >> those fake republican electors signed forged certificates, purporting to be the real electoral college votes and, in other words, asserting that in fact donald trump had won georgia. those fake certificates were actually mailed to the national archives as though they were official. and it's not like they didn't know they were up to something

fishy, no. the trump campaign told the fake electors to operate in, quote, complete secrecy. the washington post obtained an email obtained by a trump campaign staffer sent to the fake electors the day before the meeting. in part, it reads, quote, i must ask for your complete discretion in this process. your duties are imperative to ensure the end results -- a win in georgia for president trump -- but will be hampered unless we have complete secrecy and discretion. the email went on to instruct the electors to tell security guards at the building that they have an appointment with one of two state senators. again, quote, please, at no point should you mention anything to do with presidential electors were speak to the media. now eventually, we learned what all this was about. the plan was that on january 6th, as vice president mike pence presided over the certification process of the

election in congress, hints would use those fake electoral college votes to overturn george's results and declare joe biden, not the president of the united states but actually declare trump for a second term. when it became clear that mike pence was not willing to do that, pressure was brought to bear on him in the form of a violent mob. and the fake elector scheme in georgia, and six other states, is now being investigated by the january 6th committee as well as by the department of justice. many of the fake electors have been subpoenaed by both. it is also in the crosshairs of fulton county georgia district attorney fani willis, who is conducting a wide-ranging invectives haitian of attempts by trump and his allies to meddle and today brought a huge development in that investigation. yahoo news was forced to report that da fani willis has sent what are called, quote, target letters to prominent georgia

republicans, informing them that they, in fact, could be indicted for their roles in that fake electors scheme. the recipients of the target letters include to fake electors -- david schaffer, the chair of the georgia republican party who led the fake electors meeting -- and state senator worked jones, who coincidentally is currently brian kemp's running mate for lieutenant governor. also receiving a target letter is a republican state senator by the name of brendan breach beach, who the atlanta journal-constitution reports was a key intermediary between the trump campaign in those fake electors. remember that email from the trump campaign instructing this fake electors to keep the meeting secret, that email said they should pretend they were at the state capitol for a meeting with senator beach. it's big news on all of this. there are so many developments. it's big news all on its own that some of the biggest names in georgia republican politics

have been told they could be indicted. but it's also big news because it is a major escalation of this fulton county investigation. today, fani willis said she is considering whether to call donald trump himself to testify before the grand jury. joining me now is going keys fleming, former district attorney at dekalb county georgia. thank you so much for being here tonight. help us understand this for a moment. the importance of these target letters procedurally, both for da willis and for the recipients of these letters, if a kind of special grand jury district attorney, willis, has convened does not have power to issue indictments itself, is it unusual that the district attorney's office has sent these targets letters to these individuals warning them that they could be, in fact, inducted? >> it's not unusual and it used to be a very common practice back when the law in georgia said that any elected official

that is being investigated by a state special grand jury would have the opportunity to present a sworn statement and not be question before the grand jury. the law has changed since then. and so now elected officials are treated like everyone else. but i think in this particular case that letters may have been sent to clear up any sort of discrepancy as to whether these individuals were now being viewed as targets as opposed to simply as witnesses. and i think fani maybe doing that so that she can ensure that they don't feel ambushed, that they are able to adequately prepare for their testimony, presumably with council. and with that council they can make any sort of recommendations or decisions as to how to respond to questions and possibly, if they think it's appropriate, to seek -- to use the fifth amendment, to prevent themselves from incriminating themselves.

>> do you expect these three individuals to potentially consider pleading the fifth? >> i think that's something that only fani and the grand jury will know up until the special grand jury's report has put together at the end of this process. >> the reporting on these target letters names three individuals -- state senator brandon beach, who i mentioned, and two of trump's fake electors in georgia, the republican party chair, david schaffer, and lieutenant governor who is running now for lieutenant governor -- board to jones. do you have any understanding of whether any of the others have received target letters? if, not would you be surprised that there would be more beyond these three? >> i wouldn't be surprised. remember, that fanny has sworn an oath to prosecute or investigate without any fear, favor or affection. that means that she is going to follow the evidence wherever it leads here and now it's not just her and her investigations

team. but it's also a group of citizens and residents in fulton county, who may have questions that they want answered. so, he's operating on their behalf as well to be able to get some of the answers they need to write this final report. >> the district attorney is considering calling donald trump before the special grand jury. is there any compelling reason not to seek his testimony at this point. >> i can't think of a non compelling reason. she has the opportunity, she has the tools. the special grand jury has questions and wants to hear from the former president. she has the tools to be able to present that. i think that she certainly knows that making a move like that will no doubt invoke various motions and opposition

and makes a process before she can get that testimony. but i'm confident that her and her team are already deep anticipating three or four chess moves ahead and they are going to do what is necessary and build and vet whatever case they think they may have. >> if that does happen, if that process for compelling grand jury testimony, which we know exists for a former president like trump, outside of the state of the georgia, does play out, do you expect the question that trump's testimony to become an issue in litigation -- does the da have enough time to fight a potential legal battle for trump's testimony before her special grand jury expires? >> i think so. the grand jury that has been empaneled for a year. they just started all of their work in the spring. so, there is still a lot of time left this year. they have a fantastic judge that is managing both the calendar and the substance as well as the law.

and so i think that all parties, certainly the judge, funny enter team, they recognize the timelines and are going to act diligently to work within, them to bring this matter to a conclusion in some way, shape or form, so she can then have the information that she needs about whether to proceed with charges and, if so, which ones. >> one of the georgia republicans who received a target letter from da willis has filed a motion to disqualify her as head prosecutor. state senator burr to jones fight cited a fund-raiser willis hosted for -- democratic opponent as a reason that she and her chief prosecutor on the trump probe should be disqualified. there's this motion to disqualify da willis have any merit in your opinion? are you surprised to see a move like this? >> i'm not surprised. i think that, obviously, funny and her team, they have spoken about it, they have indicated that she has no personal bias

against the senator and she, again, is following the evidence that has been put before her. i anticipate she will also argue that, because of that, it does not rise to the level warranting her disqualification. this is not a situation where the senator is the only target. we have talked about the several individuals that are being treated or are being asked to appear of will for the grand jury. so, this is not a selective prosecution. it's not just -- by himself. and i believe she will argue that she has testimony that is relevant to her ability to investigate this case, consistent with the oath that she took. >> gwen keyes fleming, a former district attorney of dekalb county, georgia, greatly appreciate your insights, great to have you tonight. >> thank. you >> -- these developments, the january six committee continues its investigation. -- was that the inspector general

of the department of homeland security briefed all nine members of the january 6th committee today. that follows yesterday's explosive report that the secret service and secret service text messages from january 5th and january 6th of january 2021 have disappeared. -- deleted these messages after he asked for them to be handed over. but the secret service says that the messages were in fact in a loss -- devices. the committee also heard testimony today from overstocked outcome founder and election conspiracy theorist patrick byrne. byrne was inexplicably present in an office for this meeting, describe that the last public hearing, the one with lots of shouting, where trump entertained the idea of seizing all the countries voting machines. so, who knows what we might hear about this next public hearing?

the committee today officially announced that this will be next thursday. it will also be in primetime starting at 8 pm eastern. joining us now is andrew weissmann, former fbi general counsel, former senior member of general counsel robert mueller's legal team and currently investigative msnbc analyst. i -- want to circle back to something you were just talking about a moment ago, the news out of georgia. what do you think of fulton county da fani willis to sending these target letters to several prominent georgia republicans, telling them that they may be indicted in trump's fake electors scheme? >> so, one thing i was very interested to hear was that the federal level is quite similar, historically, target letters were commonly issued to put people on notice, that charges could be brought and lets people know that they should have counsel -- they can make a decision about whether they should testify,

they can assert the -- amendment. when i was a young prosecutor, the target letters, first when i was trained, i was told that target letters were euphemistically known as heart attack letters. one of the ways they could be useful is when you send them out, it really is a shot across the bow to say, if you are thinking of cooperating, now is the time. because they are going to be facing charges. so, it's kind of interesting to know whether that is one of the things that is going on, particularly since target letters are not these days common letters commonly used anymore. they tend to be used through a phone call to defense council. >> andrew, how do you see the -- in relation to the other investigations, the other criminal investigations, or potential investigations of donald trump and all this. some observers think or seem to think that the georgia investigation is the one that

trump should be most worried about. and today you had the significant development. >> that's a great question. to me, it is really hard, when you are looking at this from a federal perspective, to think of pulling apart just what is happening in georgia and not thinking about it as just one aspect. the plan that the january 6th committee hearings have laid out, which was efforts by donald trump in a variety of ways, including pressuring georgia officials, having a slate of fake electors, pressuring the vice president, having changes at the department of justice -- i mean, a whole variety of schemes with one goal, which was to make sure he would retain power. so, it is sort of hard if you are the department of justice to try to pull this apart, looking at this holistically. it remains to be seen whether the department of justice is going to be doing that or is

going to be doing this in the smaller chunks and pieces and wait for each of those to develop. >> let's look ahead for a moment. you have the next public hearing that the january 6th investigation slated for thursday's expected to focus on trump's inaction during the attack on the capitol, a crucial period of i believe 187 minutes. what will you be looking for in that hearing that is significance? >> one thing that will be interesting, and i don't know where the committee is on this, explaining the 187 minute gap. you mentioned that there is a whole kerfuffle about whether the secret service does or does not have important evidence, text messages, emails from january 5th and january 6th. there also appears to be a very important gap in the white house records on january 6th.

so, i would be very interested to see if there is anything that is going to come up in the hearings about -- is this going to be another one, to date myself, in the nixon period, where you had a gap in taper courting's? of course, mary woods had to explain how she inadvertently deleted it -- i think many people, including myself, found it very possible. that would be very interesting. what i'm going to be very interested in, as someone who is a criminal prosecutor is, evidence that goes to donald trump's intent. what was he saying and what was he doing and not doing? we already have some evidence of that from cassidy hutchinson where, if you are trying to figure out what he intended with the mob that was attacking the capitol, one of the ways you can look at that is to say, well, what was he doing when he learned?

it was he appalled, like the rest of us and doing what he could to prevent it? or, as bethany hutchinson said, was he actually saying the vice president is going to get what he deserves, which is just an unfathomable statement to imagine that any president of the united states would say that about violence for the vice president. so, i'm going to be completely interested in other information, along the same lines from cassidy hutchinson about what he was saying with respect to all of the people who were trying to get him to do the right thing when they were seeing the capitol and all of the people in the capitol, police officers, politicians, staff, under attack -- >> andrew, the justice department tonight back to the january 6th committee in its subpoena to get testimony from trump chief of staff mark meadows, who may be able to offer some insights about those 187 minutes. and it's the first time that the justice department has said

that former advisers to presidents who have left office are not absolutely immune from congressional subpoenas. willis have an impact on the broader committee getting meadows testimony? >> very significant ruling. sorry, very significant filing by the department of justice -- the judge in that case had asked the department to weigh in on its position. mark meadows had made a motion seeking to quash the subpoena seeking his testimony. and the department of justice made a filing saying a number of things that were very adverse to mark meadows. first, he said he is not protected by absolute immunity. at most he is protected by qualified immunity. but in any event, the congressional committee had established the need to qualify for immunity, that means there is a balancing. but the other is that this

doesn't apply to documents. it only applies to testimony. they also made it clear that the testimony really has two [inaudible] things that mark meadows was doing in his official capacity, not in a follow-up and detour and not in a criminal capacity. so, there are lots of ways that this filing, the department gives mark meadows not a lot of hope and really supports the judge finding that congress is entitled to his testimony here. >> andrew weissmann, former fbi general counsel, senior member of special counsel robert mueller's investigation and msnbc analyst. andrew, thank you so much for joining us tonight, greatly appreciate your insights. up next, the story of a ten year old rape victim who needed to cross state lines to get an abortion has highlighted just a precarious situation millions of americans are now facing. what are democrats doing now to prevent something like this from happening again?

well, the house of representatives passed two abortion bills today, including one that would protect those who travel out of state to receive abortion care. the member of congress behind that legislation joins me live, next. f congress behin that legislation joins me live next

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they were amazed that the story of a ten year old rape victim in ohio who had to travel to indiana to get an abortion turned out to be true. republicans had immediately

thrown cold water on the story. then, when a 27-year-old admitted to raping the child, they wanted everyone to look away. and they turned their focus to the provider,. indiana attorney general this week said he was investigating the doctor. the ob/gyn did not report the abuse, as a report required by indiana law. if i, she did report it to the proper authorities and how the attorney to the doctor has sent a cease and desist letter to the indiana attorney general, today threatening legal action against him. so, where does this leave republicans? here is the headline in politico. quote, oh, god, no. republicans fear both her voter backlash after indiana child rape case. one republican strategist telling politico, quote, i am not touching this story with a ten foot pole. meanwhile, the democratic national committee is launching a new -- 12 battleground states on the issue of abortion rights. >> republicans are celebrating

ending a woman's right to choose. >> this is a moment for incredible celebration. >> what a great victory. >> and they are not done yet. mike pence wants to ban abortion in every state. mitch mcconnell says a national abortion bland plan is possible. women's rights, stripped away by the few. but we are the many. we will fight for freedom and we will not be silenced. the democratic national committee is the responsible for the content of this advertising. >> as expected, democrats are making this issue their battle cry as they head into the november elections, while republicans, well, as you can imagine, they would rather change the subject. and the democrats are legislating to. the two bills aimed at safeguarding abortion access pass the house of representatives today. one of those bills would codify the right to an abortion as outlined in roe v. wade. not one single republican voted for it. the other bill would prohibit states from restricting people

from traveling to another state to obtain an abortion. and that bill received three republican votes. republicans have already blocked a related bill in the senate. barring a miracle, that's as far as either of these two bills will go. but democrats are getting republicans on the record when it comes to the issue of abortion they are in fact holding congressional hearings, they are legislating, they are applying pressure, they are trying to get something done to protect a woman's right. joining us now is congresswoman, lizzie fletcher, the democrat from texas who sponsored the house approved bill protecting the right to cross state lines to get an abortion. congresswoman fletcher, thank you so much for being with her us here tonight. -- he's not explicitly mentioned in the constitution, to use a line out of the republican playbook. but the supreme court has recognized it several times, dating back to the 1800s. but you look at a state like texas, the lawmakers there and

antiabortion advocates, they are looking into penalties for crossing state lines for abortions. we surprised to see that rolling back row would result in some states seeking to strip some women and pregnant people from the right to travel freely in this country? >> well, thanks so much for having me on tonight. i am not shocked, based on what we have seen in texas, over the last several decades. but i am outraged and i think everyone should be outraged at what we have seen. for decades we have heard republicans say that this is an issue for the states to decide. as you mentioned, immediately they are calling for a federal ban on abortion. and the other thing that has happened is that while roe v. wade has been the law of the land, states like mine have passed incredibly restrictive abortion bills. and many have these trigger laws. so, now, overnight abortion is over outlawed, in up to -- states now and it's expected to

grow. well what we have seen, i, think has confirmed that turning us back to the states is not been -- republican lawmakers. and it's really important for the house to stand up and defend our right to access abortion care in all 50 states, which is what the vast majority of american support. a framework that takes into account the incredibly complex nature and personal nature of these decisions. these reproductive health care decisions. and it's also important that we protect this right to travel. as you said, this is a right that goes back to the articles of confederation. this is something the supreme court has recognized and it's really important that congress affirm the right to travel between the states and make sure that people cannot be interfered with, either the people leaving the state to state seek care or -- helping them that's what's happening here in texas and that. rages >> congresswoman, even though yorba linda women's health protection act, which aims to

codify abortion rights, ultimately do not pass in the senate, is there any use, is there any reason to get republicans in congress on the record with their votes and oppositions? >> i think it's absolutely important for people to know where their representative stand. this and on other issues. and that said, i think one of the challenges here is, i've been involved in this court for a long time, and i've heard from so many people, the supreme court will never overturn roe v. wade, we look to courts to protect our fundamental freedom, our liberty, our autonomy, our dignity, our health. and now, what we are seeing, is all of these efforts have been happening in the states where people were not paying as much attention because they got this right will never go away. well, now they are seeing this happening, it's important for them to know who is defending their fundamental freedoms, who is defending their rights, who is approaching this with a seriousness and complexity that it deserves, and who is trying

to prevent them from exercising their fundamental freedom. and it's not just about exercising abortion care, this goes far into our -- including contraception. we have heard republicans in congress this week and in other, weeks they want to rollback the right to contraception to. and justice thomas has made clear, that's not it. it's essentially -- that americans know what is happening, what's the people are proposing, and that they know that going into the elections in november, and they are able to vote for people who will protect them, and their freedoms, and that they know when exactly where the representative stand. >> congresswoman lizzy fletcher, thank you so much for your time tonight, greatly appreciate it. >> thanks so much. >> coming up, why did the president of the united states do this today with someone who has implicated, who was implicated, in the gruesome murder of a u.s. based journalist? we will tell you about that, next. a u.s. based journalist journalist we

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punish senior saudi leaders, would? you >> yes, and i said it at the time. khashoggi was in fact murdered and dismembered, and i believe it was the order of the crown prince. >> that was then president presidential candidate joe biden, blaming the crown prince for the assassination of the journalist, jamal khashoggi. just a few weeks after taking office, biden ordered the

declassification of a u.s. government assessment, naming mbs as he is commonly called responsible for khashoggi's death. we assess that saudi arabia's crown prince mohammed bin salman approved an operation in istanbul, turkey to capture or kill the journalist jamal khashoggi. that is why it is so shocking to see this today. the president of the united states fist pumping an individual the u.s. government has labeled a murder. here is how this murder landed back here at home, from the washington post publisher who wrote in part, quote, the fist pumping tween president biden and mohammed bin salman was worse than a handshake, it was shameful. it projected a level of intimacy and comfort that delivers the mbs the unwarranted redemption he has been desperately seeking. and a sort of impromptu damage control conference from saudi arabia, biden told reporters

today that he rebuked mbs face to face. >> in respect to the murder of khashoggi, i made it clear -- what i think of it now. >> why was the crown prince's response to your comments about khashoggi? >> he basically said that he was not personally responsible for it. i indicated that i thought he was. >> now biden also said that he, as the president of the united states, will always stand up for human rights. and i just want to make a parenthesis here because, it did not seem that human rights or the killing of palestinian american journalist chireno kokand was brought up when he met up with israelis yesterday. so let us put that on record. but biden said today he was not there to meet with the crown prince but with nine leaders from around the region. and that could very well be biden's understanding of what

is taking place in saudi arabia. but it is not the understanding of the saudis. they have wasted no time in publishing every picture imaginable of biden and mbs's meeting. meeting people, smiling, going from room to room, standing up, sitting down, you name it. the saudis are also doing this because they want to make sure the world sees who is effectively in control of the kingdom. it is not 86 years old king salman whose portrait you see in this photo. it is the 36-year-old crown prince sitting next to joe biden. and he, mohammed bin salman is the winner today. he got what he has been wanting, even before khashoggi's murder. a public display of validation. joining me now is steven cook, he's a senior fellow for middle east and africa studies at the council on foreign relations. he recently wrote an op-ed for the l.a. times arguing why this is not the right time for biden to go to the middle east. stephen, it is great to see you again, thank you so much for

joining us. before we even get into why president biden is in saudi arabia, let me get your reaction to the optics of what we saw play out today, in particular the fist bump between joe biden and the crown prince. how will history remember this moment? >> look, i think everybody remembers during the campaign that the president said that he was going to render the crown prince a pariah, and said those saudi government had no room redeeming value. so i think history is going to look back and remember how the president undercut his own very strong message about human rights. and the fist bump itself, whether it was a fist bump or handshake, it was going to be met with the same type of revulsion over this. i think it is abundantly clear that the crown prince was responsible for jamal khashoggi 's murder, as well as other humans rights violations, and the president for his own political reasons felt it was important for him to go to

saudi arabia. but really, as you are pointing out with all these photos and all this damage control press conference, really wasn't the best move on part of the president. and i don't think there's a lot of upside for him as a result of this trip. >> the president in his press conference is suggested that this wasn't necessarily a bilateral gathering, he wasn't there to see mbs in particular, he was there to meet the regional leaders. and i happen to be in saudi arabia. the saudis, they put out a statement talking about 18 different agreements, they clearly see this as a bilateral moment between the u.s. and the saudis. how do you think mbs will see biden's visit? will this serve as a confirmation both to his place as the future king of saudi arabia and that he can operate without repercussions from the u.s.? >> i think it's undoubtedly the case, that the crown prince

seeks affirmation from this visit, and it has a very important bilateral component. the entire day today was meetings with the saudi leadership, which means meetings with mohammed bin salman. it really is the -- it is something that the saudis actually expected from the very beginning of the biden administration. the president said that he was going to freeze out mohammed bin salman. the saudis were confident that at some point, the president would have to come to the saudis. they would need the saudis help. and, now they seem to be in the driver seat in the relationship. >> is the u.s. in a position to have asked for an apology or an official apology from the saudi government? with that have even been on the table? i am still trying to wrap my head around what the u.s. is getting out of this. because some have said, no matter how much oil the saudis put, out it's not enough to make up for the shortfall of the russian ukraine war. it may soften the price of

gasoline at the pump by a few cents, but it's not enough to really -- it's not worth what we saw on display today. >> exactly. exactly right. it does not seem worth it for the president to go. he is going for other reasons as well. the normally is -- the step to towards normalization between israel and saudi arabia. that was happening anyway to kind of solidify a regional coalition and meet the iranian threats. that was already happening. in fact, the united states was playing catch-up because biden's administration was outside the regional consensus on that issue. so, and he is really getting nowhere on this question of human rights. i think even if the president had asked for some sort of declaration from the saudis, there was really no way that the saudis were going to give it to him. so the real issue here was the president was going so he could be seen to do everything possible to encourage the saudis to put more oil on the market, and thus ease the pain

of americans at the pump. because his poll numbers are very soft as a result of the run up of prices in gas. >> let's hope that it's for more than just overflight rights in saudi arabia that we saw the president of the united states go to the kingdom. steven cook, a senior fellow for middle eastern and african studies. always a pleasure, thank you for making time for us. >> great to see you. >> up next, while biden meets with a despot abroad, republicans in several states that trump won urging the very best to threaten democracy right here in the u.s.. ruth ben-ghiat joins us next. the u.s. ruth ben-ghiat joins us next

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presidential election. but he did manage to win many deep right conservative states. in the great state of, idaho, donald trump won the election by 33 points, and joe biden didn't even come close to that. and right now the idaho republican parties for holding its annual state convention where they will decide the official positions of the party in that state. and one of the proposals idaho republicans are seriously considering at that convention is a proposal to reject the results of the 2020 election and claimed that president biden is not the legitimate president of the united states because, you know, something, something, something, voter fraud. who knows? the resolution being considered by idaho republicans as nearly identical to one that was adopted by the texas republican party just last month.

and texas, is of course a state that donald trump won in 2020. all of this would've been easy to wave off, it would even be funny to laugh at if it were one or two instance of republicans pushing these 90 proposals. but then election denial is not poised to become the official position of the actual state republican party in two different states, both of which are entirely in control by republicans. each day that donald trump spoke a selection conspiracy goes unchecked within the republican party, it evolves from a french conspiracy theory too widely held belief within the party, to then ultimately becoming official republican doctrine. joining us now is ruth ben-ghiat, a prison suppressor of history at new york university and author of strongmen mussolini. professor ben yet, thank you for making time for us. they're a few things that i wanted to talk to you about. but i wanted to start getting your reaction to a story i just

mentioned and ask you if you think we are in a fraud boil situation where how the overturning of the last election has become mainstream doctrine for republicans and states like idaho and texas. >> absolutely. it's just more evidence of how the gop is absorbing and normalizing extremist ideologies because i want to point out that the resolution that they are poised to probably adopt an idaho, it doesn't just reject the results of the 2020 election, it also actually says we hold that acting president, joseph biden, was not legitimately elected by the people of the united states. so the fact that they call him acting and they use a small pea for president, they are not even recognizing his authority as the president.

so this is really a kind of insurgent insurrectionist stand, it's an extremist and it's what people like southern citizens do they are not recognizing the federal authority. >> there's a bit of a disconnect here because, correct me if i'm wrong, most americans do not believe the 2020 election was stolen even if more and more republicans do. yet, because the way our system isn't our system of government is designed, republican controlled states, they have outsized influence over how our elections get decided. so we may ignore this, but we are ignoring it at our own peril. how concerned should we be about what these republican parties on the state level are doing and saying about elections for our next election? >> well, very. because there's two things going on. one is that we are going to look back and see the big lie as one of the most successful propaganda campaigns in u.s. history.

i, mean 70% of republicans still believe that the rank and file, the followers of the rally, they believe it was stolen. but the among the political elites, it's a cynical maneuver which is going to help the u.s. drift into what is called an electoral autocracy, where you hold elections, just like in hungry, but they don't really mean as much. it's a vineyard because the system is waited in ways that you've taken -- you've gotten rid of the public trust in elections. so you can fix them more easily. >> i want to get your reaction, if i can, about some other stories in the news right now. last night we got the story about the secret service, allegedly deleting text from around the rest insurrection, and as someone who has studied authoritarian governments, what does that mean if of major law enforcement agency like the secret service was potentially getting involved in destroying evidence around a failed

insurrection? >> you know, we were just talking about elections, because so many authoritarian authoritarian states hold elections but they don't really mean as much, the real metric of democracy versus authoritarianism is transparency and accountability. and what we saw over the years of trump's presidency is a kind of every attempt possible to remove accountability, remove transparency, and a kind of deep professionalization of some of these institutions. so what's gone on in secret service, like ornato's backup secret service, and he still has an oversight position. and we saw what happened to the civil service and civil servants and so many -- the political class but conspired on a very grand scale in this coup attempt. so, secrets right now, the party the way i read it, is the party and the institutions that conspired like these people

from the secret service, they are in emergency mode because of these hearings, because they can't have their criminal activities come out. >> right, ruth been good, professor of history at nyu, new york university, thank you so much for your time, i really appreciate it. >> sure. much for your time, i appreciate it. until now. kisqali is helping women live longer than ever before when taken with an aromatase inhibitor or fulvestrant... in hr+, her2- metastatic breast cancer. kisqali is a pill that's proven to delay disease progression. kisqali can cause lung problems, or an abnormal heartbeat, which can lead to death. it can cause serious skin reactions, liver problems, and low white blood cell counts that may result in severe infections. tell your doctor right away if you have new or worsening symptoms, >> sure. a change in your heartbeat, dizziness, yellowing of the skin or eyes, dark urine, tiredness, loss of appetite, abdomen pain, bleeding, bruising, fever, chills,

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rachel will be back here on monday. and i will see you tomorrow night at 8 pm needs stern on my show, a, man right here on msnbc. now it's time for the last, where jonathan kaye part is in for lawrence tonight. good evening, jonathan. >> good evening lawrence -- good evening eamonn, have a good friday night. the january six committee has made it official, the next public hearing will be thursday night at 8 pm. after seven bombshell hearings, this is expected from summer hearings. the co