good to be with you. i'm katy tur. we're going to begin with yet another mass shooting. police in greenwood, indianapolis are updating us on

a shooting at a mall. let us listen in. >> before the chief gets up, i have a few comments i'd like to make. i'll not be able to say anything of what's already been said by so many sites at mass shootings in america. i don't want to be among the mayors that has to share these statements but i am. i grieve for these senseless killings and i ache for the stars left behind on the victims and on our community. and as we stand here in shock, i'm proud of my first responders who instantaneously responded to the scene. the men and women of the greenwood police department, the greenwood fire department, the johnson county sheriff's office, the indianapolis metropolitan police department, the fbi, the atf and other departments as well, we want to thank them for their assistance in this operation last night.

also, we have the faith community to show its support to the mental health experts, the red cross and government leaders at all levels. we've been contacted by our state, our federal and even from the white house offering their condolences and their assistance for anything we need. i thank all of those who did that, who have reached out to us and who are reaching out to our people to support us. and also we're very thankful for a young 22-year-old man who stopped this violent act. this young man, greenwood's good samaritan, acted within seconds, stopping the shooter and saving countless lives. our city, our community and our state is grateful for his heroism in this situation. chief eisen will give you information on him in a few minutes.

he's a young man processing a lot. i ask that you give him space and time to be able to process what's he's gone through last night. with that, i'll turn it over to chief eisen. >> thank you, mayor. good afternoon. first and foremost i want to offer the condolences on behalf of all of the law enforcement agencies involved in this incident last night to the families of our victims. this is a senseless tragedy and our hearts are broken with yours. i first want to start by introducing some of the individuals standing behind me. this was a collaborative effort from many agencies. i have been involved over the course of my career in multiple -- multi-agency, both federal, state and local

training efforts and active shooter trainings, many of them at the greenwood park mall. we work out the problems in those trainings so that when it counts like it did last night, we have all these agencies coming together just like they did, working seamlessly, working together for a common purpose, everybody knowing their role and last night was a true testament that training pays off. behind me i have herb stapleton, special agent in charge of the indianapolis fbi. darrell mccormick, agent in charge of the atf. josh watson, lieutenant from the indiana state police. commander ron hicks from impd. sheriff dwayne burgess from the johnson county sheriff's office. fireman chad patman from the greenwood fire department and

coroner mike pruitt. that being said, i'm going to turn this over to the coroner for just a moment so that he can talk to you more about the victims, then i will get back up and give you some specifics on what we know about the shooter, the good samaritan and the events that occurred last night. coroner. >> thank you, chief. johns county coroner, michael pruitt. we have identified four decedents following the incident last night at the greenwood park mall. we have been working jointly with the main county coroner's office because two of those individuals were transported to indianapolis hospitals, one to esconazi and another to st. francis and another remained at the mall. they are handling two of the

autopsies at their facility and would at our facility. i will identify the four individuals. i will put these out for proper spellings. i've already sent some of those out but i will get those out. the first individual that we identified, this individual was at the mall and we are handling this investigation jonathan douglas sapireman. he's age 20 of greenwood. the next individual pedro pineda, age 56 of indianapolis and we are handling that investigation. the next individual rosa miriam riff rare depedada age 37, she is the wife of pedro. so they are a married couple. that investigation is being

handled by the main county coroner's office. and the last individual is victor gomez, age 30 of indianapolis and that individual is being handled by the main county coroner's office also. all will be receiving medical examinations that are scheduled for tomorrow. thank you, coroner. okay, as the coroner just said, jonathan sapireman age 20 of greenwood is our shooting suspect. he was pronounced deceased at the scene. he is 20 years old. he has a juvenile record and no criminal history as an adult. his past incidents with the greenwood police department include minor offenses as a juvenile such as a fight at school and being a juvenile

runaway. he does not drive. we believe that he walked to the greenwood park mall last night. we were told by family members that he typically walks or ubers to wherever he needs to go. we know the atf, their specialty is weapons. as soon as we got in and started processing the crime scene last night, the atf took the serial number information and immediately began the process of tracking down when and where those guns were purchased. if you have questions from the atf representative here once i'm done, he will be available to answer more specifics. however, the weapon used by mr. sapireman last night was a six sauer model 400 m 556 calendar weapon rifle. it was purchased on march 8, 2022 here in greenwood. the second weapon recovered,

this was in the bathroom, was an m & p 15-556 rifle parred on march 29th, 2021 here in greenwood. he also had on his person a glock 33, 357 caliber pistol. the only weapon used by mr. sapperman last night was the sig sauer model n. he multiple magazines and over a hundred round of ammunition on his person and in his possession. we know that from family members that he has been practicing shooting at range usa. the atf has made contact with range usa and received records from them that show that he was

frequently using their range and purchasing ammunition at that location for the past two years. we know that he recently resigned from a warehouse position back in may, and we have not confirmed yet, detectives are serving a subpoena as we speak to polar run apartment complex to find out if he in fact was being evicted. we were told by family members that they believed he had received an eviction notice. that has not been confirmed at this time. we did locate a cell phone belonging to him in a toilet in the stall in the bathroom. we believe he placed it there prior to exiting the rest room to begin his shooting spree. the following is a timeline of

events. we know mr. sapperman entered the mall by the food court at 4:54 p.m. he walks directly to the food court rest room. one hour and two minutes later he exits the rest room and shoots victor gomez outside of the rest room. he then points his rifle into the food court where pedro and rosa pineda were eating dinner and shot both rosa and pedro. he then fired several more rounds into the food court, striking a 22-year-old female who is currently recovering from a leg wound at the hospital and a bullet fragment believed to have ricochetted off of a wall did strike a 12-year-old female who was running toward exit 4 in the back. that was a minor wound treated at the hospital. they did remove a small piece of

metal jacket, most likely from a ricochet. at 5:57 p.m., the shooter was confronted by our good samaritan, who i will identify in just a moment. the good samaritan was armed with a pistol and engaged the shooter as he stood outside the rest room area firing into the food court. the suspect attempted to retreat back foo the rest room and fell to the ground after being shot. we recovered 24 223 rifle rounds shot by the suspect and ten handgun rounds fired by the good samaritan. the good samaritan, once again, he has authorized us to release

his name. he is requesting you give him time to process and grieve himself before reaching out to him. his name is elijah elisjsha and he resigned in seymour, indiana. he was at the mall last night with his girl friend shopping. one last thing that i would like to get help from the media is there were several personal property items left behind. when you have an incident like this, it's complete chaos, people left shopping bags, cell phones, wallets, a lot of personal property. we have recovered that personal property and it is currently being entered into our property room.

tomorrow anyone who is missing a personal item left behind can come to the greenwood police training center located at 736 lowes boulevard between 9 a.m. and 5 p.m., there will be officers there to assist them in getting their personal property back. we ask them to bring a form of identification so that we can positively identify the person we're giving the property to. at this time i will open it up for questions. >> yes, jonathan sapirman.

>>. >> we could not find he had a permit. he had a glock handgun, i believe. >> [ inaudible ]. >> .556. yes, they're very similar. they shoot 223 rounds also. >> [ inaudible ]. >> .556. >> [ inaudible ]. >> well, i personally didn't speak to him. i did watch the video, the surveillance video, which captured pretty much the entire incident. i will say his actions were nothing short of heroic.

he engaged the gunman from quite a distance with a handgun. it was very proficient in that, very tactically sound and as he moved to close in on the suspect, he was also motioning for people to exit behind him. he has, to our knowledge, he has no police training and no military background. >> [ inaudible ]. >> at that time of night on a sunday i couldn't speculate. i don't know how many people were in that area of the mall.

>> [ inaudible ]. >> sure. in an incident like this when an active shooter situation goes out, there's several -- first thing that happens is officers from other agencies hear it dispatched, officers at home get pages, officers in the area that might be off duty in their vehicles with radios on all hear it and they automatically expedite to the scene. so we have a lot of self-reporting l.e.o.s that may not be on duty from other agencies. basically everybody runs to help, which is great, but it can also be chaotic and cause problems if it's unorganized. so the first thing that we have to do is create staging points for self-reporting l.e.o.s and assign a supervisor to that staging point to monitor who's coming in and keep track of where people are.

the second is to establish an incident command and a unified command with all agencies that are responding. so all of the individuals you see behind me were the head of their agencies on the scene. we all met at one location and there was one point of contact via radio traffic between dispatch and commanders that were responsible for specific -- had specific responsibilities with inside the mall, whether it be clearing, fire, rescue, s.w.a.t. team members, bomb squad members. it all comes to a central point of command with everyone you see behind me at the command center. we obviously have to prepare for media, prepare for people looking for loved ones, reunification sites who don't know where their loved ones are

to gather. so we immediately establish that at our training center and got that out on social media and within the media for family members to report there. and then you just start processing as the incident commander for the agency within the jurisdiction, the first thing i did was call for the fbi. this is something that they are very well versed in and they have both the manpower and the resources necessary. i knew we were going to need that. because there were firearms available or involved, this was an active shooter incident. the atf, they have resources as i explained earlier. they can track down where weapons were bought and when they were bought and histories very, very quickly, much faster than we can. so you just start pulling in

resources and getting organized and pretty much everything else falls into place. we treat the wounded, evacuate the mall, set up perimeters and once everything is clear, you move in to begin your investigation. all right. so here's what we have learned so far out of indiana. the shooter was a 20-year-old named jonathan douglas sapirman. he walked to the mall and got there about 5:00, went to the bathroom. an hour later walked out of the bathroom and started shooting into the food court. that's where he killed two people. rosa rivera, a 37-year-old woman, her husband, pedro pineda, who was 56. killed a man named victor gomez, who was 30 years old. in shooting rounds into the food court, he shot and injured one woman and a 12-year-old girl who

was running away to an exit. a bullet seemed to have ricochetted and hit her in the back. luckily that was a very minor wound. she was treated at the hospital. i believe he said she's already been released. so for the weapons, what this man used, a sigsauer 400 millimeter .556 caliber rifle, a a.r.-15 style, semiautomatic assault rifle. he had two other guns he did not use. he got off 24 rifle rounds, according to the officers, he did have multiple magazines and more than a hundred round of ammunition. his family said he been practicing shooting from a gun range. he recently resigned from a warehouse and may have been served an eviction notice. he was stopped in a few minutes by a good samaritan, a good guy with a gun, a 22-year-old named

elijah dicken, who was at the mall with his girl friend, no police training, no military background. he was able to shoot him with the handgun that he had on his body, legally purchased handgun that he was legally allowed to carry. joining me now is nbc news correspondent maggie vespa and law enforcement agent dermot shea. i'm sorry to have stepped on a lot of the was in that you were gathering as well from at that news conference but what can you tell us that you're seeing onseen? >> one of the thing is the chief of police and the mayor both saying they wanted to point out how their first responders jumped into action. they said something along the lines of this is proof that training works. obviously that's a really poignant point, given what we've seen in uvalde. they're working with greenwood

police, indiana police, fbi and atf. they're saying it was the good guy with the guns, elijah dickins, who they said engaged the shooter from a distance with a handgun and was able to hit the shooter they said multiple times before he eventually retreated or tried to retreat and later died of those injuries. so the way they phrase it, there could have been several more casualties or at least injuries who that man, elijah dickins had not jumped in. they said he's dealing with a lot, that's to be expected, he doesn't want to be involved but has given the authorities permission to release his name. >> so the suspect was a

juvenile, had a juvenile record. chief, what do you think? >> i think he did a good job in his investigation. he outlined everything they had at this point and i think that's very important. the one piece that i think we want more information on is just what you said, about the shooter. we heard about a juvenile record, we clearly have intent with three separate firearms brought to the scene over a hundred round of ammunition. i think we are going to learn as the days continue the same thing we've heard with some of these other shootings. we're going to hear about somebody who is potentially a loner, somebody who has family problems, who spends a lot of time alone in the basement potentially watching videos, playing video games and being turned into somebody that is really at this point america's worst nightmare, middle of the

afternoon in the middle of america at a mall. your heart goes out to the families. >> it's rare for a good guy with a gun to start him. they did an analysis between 2000 and 2021, of 443, only 22 attacks were stopped by a so-called good guy with a gun. of those 22, only 12 were regular folks, not security guards or off duty members of law enforcement. that would be 13 now because this hero as he's being called at the mall was able to stop him and doesn't appear he has any law enforcement or training or military background. commissioner, how does law enforcement feel about a good guy with a gun? i know sometimes there's confusion if they show up on scene, they see multiple people with guns. are they happy that there are good samaritans there or does it make it harder?

>> in an incident like this, katy, everything is reviewed. everything would be reviewed by prosecutors potentially to see if there's any wrong doing. you heard very clearly from the outset here he's being painted as a hero. i think law enforcement is torn at some of these circumstances. they clearly are thankful at an incident like this that he was able to end the threat and end the threat before other loss of life occurred. and as much as we heard about the training and people responding from off duty, the reality i think that we all know is there would have been future loss of life, additional loss of life without that good samaritan there. so there's no doubt that they're happy about that. i just have to say this one thing. i don't think the general public would fully appreciate -- i know those of us in law enforcement do -- engaging in a gun battle against an adversary with a rifle as this person did with a handgun is in any circumstances

extremely difficult and odds you do not want to go up against. so to be coming out of it with the outcome that we had here, he's to be commended for his bravery. i am assuming that he was on auto pilot as this was going. >> a pistol versus an a.r.-15 style semiautomatic rifle with more than 100 rounds of ammunition, the odds are not in your favor. the man got very lucky and i'm very glad that he did. let me ask you about the semiautomatic weapons that we have access to in this country. can you tell me what your sense is of how officers feel about the access to that from the general public, the general public's access to that high powered weaponry? >> yeah, i've said this and it seems that i'm saying it week by week now and if ever there was a time to put any differences aside and just come to common

sense solutions here. when you're talking about individuals and access to guns, particularly rifles and then you hear the same pattern play out over and over again where there are red flags. we have to do better. and it's a combination of -- i really don't view this as a law enforcement issue at this point. it's an everyone issue. law enforcement, schools, medical practicers, we have a lot of obstacles and we know what they are but we have to do a better job at identifying individual, whether he's in crisis, has past mental illness or a propensity for violence, we should not be making it as easy as it is to get a firearm. >> law enforcement agencies have a lot of influence in this country. do you think it would be a good idea for them to come out and state empirically they're not

happy people having access to those kind of guns? >> yeah, i certainly do. i would attend police conferences and associations of police and that is what you hear. there's certainly a variety and diversity of opinion, but when it comes to individuals that are clearly exhibiting a pattern of behavior that frankly it shouldn't be that hard to identify and set up a sound warning system around, i think you'll get consensus. >> former nypd commissioner dermot share, thank you for joining us. maggie vespa, thank you for joining us from the scene as well. and coming up, we have a special report on guns. our correspondent spent one night in four cities to see the devastating impact of every day gun violence, not mass shootings, firsthand.

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last night nbc night live news dedicated the first half of its show to gun violence, and what our reporters saw over the course of just one night in the cities of chicago, philadelphia, houston and baltimore. this country experiences shootings almost every day but the impact and devastation this epidemic has on communities, on residents, on police officers and on hospitals is only barely covered compared to the aftermath of mass shootings like buffalo or uvalde. joining me now is senior national correspondent and anchor kate snow. kate, this is remarkable reporting you and your team did. lay it out for us. >> i anchor every weekend. i come in on monday mornings and almost every weekend we talk about the night before and incidents of gun violence that we can't even cover because there's not enough time to talk

about all of the cities. we had this idea we would spend up close hand personal time in four cities. i went to chicago where they've already had 1,400 gun violence incidents this year already. this is what we found. >> 4 p.m. philadelphia. >> a larger group of individuals standing at this corner in this area when a black chevrolet tahoe with two shooters inside opened fire on the group, striking four out of that group. >> reporter: these officers were just at the scene. >> none of life threatening injuries, the 27 shell casings. >> the officers are going to start by looking for a car that they believe to have been involved in an earlier shooting where four people were shot. >> 7:45 in the evening in chicago. we're following pastor donovan price. he has made it his mission to go out to sites that have had a shooting when families need

help, he'll be there for them. tonight he's already heard about two. how many shooting scenes do you think you've been to? >> since i started this? >> yes. >> about a thousand homicides. >> reporter: about a thousand? >> those are homicides where people died. >> reporter: the pastor met this woman moments before her son was killed. she lost her younger son, sheridan, just five months earlier. >> reporter: what do you miss the most? >> the laughter. i just miss them both so much. we used to joke a lot and laugh. it just hurts. >> reporter: at the community of faith church in houston, they're mourning the pastor of a nearby church, ronald mouton. >> a pastor who shot and killed.

he serves the people and ends up dead from gunfire, random road rage. >> reporter: your brother was a man of god. >> yes. >> you're a man of god. >> yes. >> reporter: you spend every weekend preaching peace. >> right. >> reporter: did you ever think something like this would happen? >> i didn't think it would happen. it can happen to anybody. we live in such a violent, gun-infested culture where at any moment, any given time for no reason justifiable at all, someone dies because of gun violence. >> reporter: night begins to fall outside the shock trauma center at the university of maryland. here they treat more than 7,000 trauma patients a year of all kinds but now a growing up in of gunshot victims. what's your biggest fear? >> we all do our best to keep everyone alive. there's always that chance it's not going to end in a positive

outcome. that's always kind of in the back of your mind. >> reporter: this trauma surgeon runs the world renowned medical center. on some nights does this feel like a war zone? >> on some nights it is a war zone. >> reporter: 10:26 p.m. back in philadelphia. >> reporter: the gun violence you say is going on sounds like it all comes back to drugs. >> i think a lot of it does. a lot of it centers around it. we got to go now. >> reporter: moments later at the scene. >> hey, guys, that wasn't gunshots, right? >> i don't think so. i think it was fireworks. >> reporter: throughout all of this police are waiting for the next shooting, which they expect at some point. >> reporter: in houston, our team links up with lieutenant larry crowson. >> we already had three

shootings this evening and we just got a report of one on the west side and we're going to head over and see what's going on. >> reporter: we pulled up to this strip mall. there's crime scene tape. there's a body with a white sheet over it next to a car. the lieutenant will talk to the officers. >> reporter: officers showed us video of the moment. >> there was a male at the atm getting some money out. he was approached by a male that was armed, tried to rob him. the male at the atm had a pistol and was able to engage the suspect and fire the shot that killed him here at the scene. >> reporter: back in baltimore. >> it just before 11:00. we just got a word that a gunshot victim is expected to be transferred here any minute. this is the first gunshot victim of the night. all we know is he was shot earlier in the day and had to be transferred here from the community hospital because he

required a higher level of care. >> reporter: and in philadelphia -- >> hey, little man, you know where you live? you want to show me? is it this way? all right, come here. >> reporter: officers say they got a call of a young child out on the street with no one watching him. >> which one is your house? >> reporter: it appears the boy has been reunited with his family. to think about a young child standing out on the streets in the middle of night based on what we've seen in the area is tough to think about. >> reporter: pastor donovan says until we all focus on local gun violence, nothing will change. you're concerned that people just aren't paying attention, right? >> it's a pick and choose. when it happens over there, man! when it happens over here, that's them, that's what they do, that's how they live. >> reporter: do you mean when it happens in a big way, mass shooting at school or somewhere more affluent it gets more

attention? >> definitely. >> reporter: midnight in houston. >> so i talked to the sergeant here. and this is a shooting. >> wow. we got a lot of family here. >> reporter: it's about 12:00. we're at the third shooting scene we've been to tonight. this happened earlier in the night. i understand there was a homicide. we're basically surrounded by grieving family members. you've got about 20, 30 people that are here gathered looking for information on what happened. we know that somebody's dead here on scene so we're waiting for the lieutenant to give us a little bit more information. >> reporter: moments later a medical examiner arrives for the victim. 12:30 in the morning and you just heard about two shootings in a row? >> two shootings in a row, both critical, both going to

university of chicago. there may be no family members there. but in most cases when there's something like that there's a bunch of families at the emergency room that like to go in case it's necessary. >> reporter: just moving toward university of chicago hospital now, where we think there might be victims or a victim from a couple of different shootings. kind of unclear what's going on but the pastor wants to get there quickly because if there are family members there, his goal is to be a calming presence. >> reporter: it just after midnight and we just got word that a gunshot victim is about to be brought here. the medical teams are gathering around this trauma bed. >> ready? one, two, three. >> reporter: every second is critical. you see these doctors around nurses hovering over this trauma

bed. they are trying desperately to save this person's life. the beeping right now means there is no heartbeat. how urgent is what's happening right now? >> it's life saving. the person came in cardiac arrest. >> reporter: how long have you been working here? >> about three years. >> reporter: how tough is it to see what's going on here? >> it can be pretty hard. >> reporter: what just happened? >> unfortunately the patient died. >> reporter: does it ever get any easier to hear when you call out the time of death? >> no, never. i've been doing this for over 20 years. no. >> reporter: two dozen medical professionals here. sometimes there's nothing you can do. how do you come to terms with it? >> sometimes you save someone.

>> may he rest in peace. >> amen. >> reporter: we got to the university of chicago hospital and there's a crowd of people, they look to be family members of someone who is inside the emergency room being treated for a gunshot. things are getting a little intense, getting heated and people are arguing over my shoulder and the pastor is there i'm sure trying to calm people down. later one of the family members learns their 31-year-old relative is gone. their pain unbearable. >> reporter: it's now 3:30 in the morning. we just got back to the hotel. we thought the night was over

but i got a text from somebody in an adjoining houston county, it's county jurisdiction and they had a quad homicide, four people shot and killed. that brings the total number of people that we know of to six killed in the span of five or six hours in the houston area. >> reporter: when you go home tonight, do those shooting victims go home with you in a way? >> absolutely. i mean, every single time we try to separate work from home life. it's a very tough thing. >> reporter: we saw you gather for prayer. what was your prayer? >> heavenly father, i pray for peace first of all. i said we're all here because of love. and so let love travel from one to another, let there be unity, let everybody here stick together. >> reporter: it does take a toll on pastor donovan. >> this one took a lot out of me because it was a lot of opening

up your spirit, opening up my spirit, opening up just kind of feeling the situation. i've been blessed to be loved. it's important that i love now. if they get love and i never get love again, that's cool because i know what comes after this. plenty of love there. >> reporter: on your drive home tonight, do you think you'll think about the patient who passed away? >> of course. you always think about them. thinking about all of them at some point. >> reporter: you see it every day. this is just one night in america. >> that is correct. this is one night in one city in the richest country in the world. how can this make any sense? >> powerful reporting. from my count, kate, one person

died in baltimore with are gabe gutierrez was, one in chicago where you were. >> that we saw. >> that you saw. five or six in houston that gaudy schwartz saw and four shot in philadelphia where jesse kersh was. was this a particularly bad night in america? >> actually no. in chicago the pastor kept saying, wow, it's a really quiet tonight. the weather was a little cooler, at the end it was pouring rain. they say when it's hot and humid and sticky in july on saturday night they tend to get a lot more calls. he was telling me over july 3rd and 4th weekend he went to 40 shootings in one night. 40 scenes. he himself went to. >> when i was in local news it was the hot summer nights that things usually got bad. i guess what's the big takeaway for us, kate? >> you know, i was grasping for solutions while we were there.

i kept asking the pastor what do we do, what do we do? that's when you heard him say we pay attention. we have to start by raising awareness of what's actually happening in this country. so many of us, we only hear about the important, the uvalde, buffalo, the mass shootings. >> something really awful. >> right. those are important, too. we need to pay attention to what's happening daily, in not just cities but all over the country. that was his part. it's hard to find solutions, although there are on a kind of microlevel. he mentioned to me mentoring and trying to keep young people out of gangs in chicago is a big, big part of it. a lot of it is gang related violence. there are multiple solutions. i think we can do a whole other piece just about that. >> we did a report i believe it was yesterday or friday on the response in chicago and what one mother has to do to keep her kid safe, this elaborate security

protocol she goes through just to leave her house every day because of all the gun violence in that city. kate snow, thank you so much. and coming up why president zelenskyy just fired both his prosecutor general and his intelligence chief. h his prosecutor general and his intelligence chief ♪♪ is this where your grandparents cut a rug, with a jitterbug? or returned from war, dreaming of the possibilities ahead. to come home from the factory. is this where they gathered on their front steps, with fats domino on the breeze... ancestry can guide you to family discoveries

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it only takes a second for an everyday item to become dangerous. tide pods child-guard pack helps keep your laundry pacs in a safe place and your child safer. to close, twist until it clicks. tide pods child-guard packaging. ukraine president volodymyr zelenskyy has removed his head of domestic intelligence and top prosecutor. the two were dismissed amid allegations that their offices were riddled with officials who were collaborating with russia. zelenskyy says 651 criminal treason investigations have been opened into the employees of ukraine's law enforcement and prosecutor office so far. it's worth noting that zelenskyy did not suggest that either of the officials he dismissed were suspected of treason. as a shadow war between russia

and ukraine begins a new chapter, a tangible one rages in the east. a new round of shelling in kharkiv and the surrounding area left two dead and two others injured. joining me right now in new york onset is nbc's chief foreign correspondent richard engel. usually we're talking to you on the other side of the world. >> good to be here. >> we have you here today. what can you tell us about the dismissal of these two officials? >> so the firing of these two officials, i think it's just the tip of the iceberg. there were, and are still are, many pro-russian officials in zelenskyy's government. and that's been a consistent criticism that ukrainians have had from the start of the war. it was one of the criticisms they had of zelenskyy before the war started. ukraine was on a -- i don't want to say it's not in crisis mode still. but it was in a almost panic level crisis mode from the beginning. so i think now that we're entering into a war that is

going to be protracted, going to be long-term, they're addressing some of these issues that had been outstanding. i think he's trying to consolidate his government, get rid of the people who he doesn't trust, and try and put together -- put a more loyal but a more trustworthy government around him. >> part of the problem is that the country is so close to russia, and there are regions of the country that speak russian, that identify with russia, and there are people there that felt a loyalty to that country. am i wrong to say that? >> no, no, no, you're not wrong at all. ukraine, before the war began, there was a low level conflict, but it still had relations with russia and gone bag decades. russia and ukraine had a hand in glove relationship. it was often tense and often -- it was almost always in russia's favor. and since the 2014 revolution, ukraine has been trying to break away. but there were always sometimes because of corrupt influences,

sometimes because of personal loyalties, many pro-russian elements within the government, within the intelligence services, and it's also important to note that zelenskyy is getting a lot of help. western intelligence, including the united states intelligence, since this war began, have been telling zelenskyy, hey, watch out for these members of parliament. these officials aren't loyal to you. these officials are collaborating with the russians. because in the early days of this war, they were activity trying, and are still actively trying to overthrow zelenskyy and replace him from within. so this is an attempt, not only for him to clean up his government, and put more loyal people for him, but also for his own personal safety. >> let ice talk about what is happening in the eastern part of the country. we were leading with it every day for months. now the stories don't make the news cast every day, because there's so much going on here. what is happening there right now? what is ukraine dealing with? what is russia doing?

>> that's a long question. and yes, unfortunately, it has dropped off the news agenda, and i think we should put it back on the news agenda. there's only limited air time, and i know what's happening here, and even watching from abroad, i'm concerned about what's happening here. there are major developments here. but what's going on in ukraine is you still have an active, very violent conflict that is mostly in the south, mostly in the east. and they're fighting over every square meter. the russians and ukrainians are trading artillery fire. the ukrainians are using the new weapons they are getting from the united states very effectively. they want more of these weapons, some are coming. the big story, the emerging story is the south. it's around odesa. it's the city of kherson. if i pulled up a map, it would be easier to explain.

the east is an active war zone and they're fighting over every village. the south, the russians have a solid hold on it. but this area around odesa, around kherson, the ukrainians still hold on to it. kherson, they're trying to take it back. and it is vital for their survival. because it is their last bit of coastline. it's their port, and it's a port they can't use if it's mined. but if they lose it, the country is not viable, ukraine is not viable as a state if they lose their last bit of coastline. ukraine, since its origin, has always exported one thing, even before when it was part of the russian empire, it was a grain producer. you can't really export grain on trucks. it's just too cumbersome. they need that area, and they're fighting for it. >> it's causing a problem globally. when are you going back? >> pretty soon. came back here, got some meetings. but i'll let you know.

you'll see me there before too long. >> thank you, richard. always good to see you safe and in person. that is going to do it for me. halle jackson picks up our coverage next. that is going to do it for me. halle jackson picks up our coverage next.

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