♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in the east. a startling revelation by the january 6th select committee just days ahead of a prime time hearing focused on one of the biggest questions still surrounding the deadly capitol insurrection. what, if anything, does donald trump actually doing while a mob of his supporters breached the u.s. capitol and sent lawmakers as well as his own vice president running for their lives? one of the two republicans on the 1/6 committee adam kinzinger telling cbs news that the committee has, quote, filled in the blanks on that very question. here's what he had to say.

>> i'll give you this preview, the president didn't do very much, but gleefully watch television during this timeframe. we will present a lot per than that. i can only imagine, i know what i felt as a u.s. congressman and if i was a president sworn to defend the constitution and that includes the legislative branch watching this on television i know i would have been going ballistic to try to save the capitol. he did quite the opposite. s we've discussed many times on this program in the past, more than three hours, 187 minutes, to be exact, elapsed from the time donald trump leaves the rally on the ellipse to when he tweets out a video asking his supporters to leave the capitol. congressman elaine luria who will be leading thursday's hearing alongside congressman kinzinger said they'll be going through a period of time minute by minute. take a listen. >> not only was it a situation that he was not doing anything and at one point the infamous tweet at 2:24 he egged people on

by saying that vice president pence didn't, quote, unquote, do the right thing. he'll be incorporating that into our hearing coming up on thursday, but there's actually more. it's not only mr. sip loany and other witnesses have been spoken to and there are others who will appear that will add a lot of value and information to events of that critical time on january 6th. i look at it as a dereliction of duty. he didn't act. he had a duty to act. so we will address that in a lot of detail and from that we will build on the information that we provided in the earlier hearings. >> so now the committee is preparing for this blockbuster hearing thursday night around the ex-president's dereliction of duty on january 6th, even if at the same time every remaining missing piece of the puzzle and the question's still swirling around those missing text messages from the united states secret service and they're from the dates january 5th and

january 6th, 2021 has led the committee to issue a subpoena friday night asking for those missing texts by tomorrow. it is the first time the committee has issued a subpoena to an executive branch agency. several members of the select committee are expressing public alarm that a law enforcement agency whose employees are key witnesses to the events on the day of the insurrection would delete text messages from that day. here's congresswoman lofgren. >> you can imagine how shocked we were to get the letter from the inspector general saying that he'd been trying to get this information and that they had, in fact, been deleted after he'd asked for them. we did get a briefing from the inspector general homeland security and then there was a statement made by the spokesperson for the department saying that, you know, it wasn't fair and that they, in fact, had pertinent texts. so we said fine, do you have them? we need them.

we need all of the texts from the 5th and the 6th of january. i was shocked to hear that they didn't back up their data before they reset their iphones. that's crazy. i don't know why that would be, but we need to get this information to get the full picture. >> the january 6th select committee looking to get the full picture of january 6th ahead of the prime time hearing this week on the ex-president's actions or lack of axes and caroline post, msnbc contributor, harry littman, and the host of the podcast talking feds. the senior executive editor of bloomberg opinion is here, also an msnbc political analyst, tim o'brien. and msnbc political analyst claire mccaskill joins us. i want to start with you, carol leonnig and some of what the committee has entered into evidence so far around this question, and i believe it's you

and your colleagues who had some of the earliest journalism about what exactly trump was and was not doing and it's pretty operative what he wasn't doing in terms of this committee, but here's what they've entered into evidence so far. [ no audio ] >> watching the tv, chief? yeah. the rioters are getting close. have you talked to the president? no, he wants to be alone right now still looking at his phone. i remember pat saying to him something to the effect of the rioters have gotten to the capitol, mark. we need to get to the president now. mark looked up and he said he doesn't want to do anything, pat. i remember pat saying something to the effect of mark, we need to do something more. they are literally calling for the vice president to be f-ing hung and mark had responded something to the effect of you

heard him, pat. he think mike deserves it. >> while it is entirely believable that he was gleefully watching television that there is something still shocking even 18 months later that he was on the side of the insurrectionists who wanted to hang mike pence while he was the sitting president. what should people be girded to see flushed out thursday night? >> i think, nicole, one of the things that's been so powerful about the january 6th committee even though i feel like i'm an expert in this material, i've lived it, i've breathed it and reported it prior to this date with a lot of my great colleagues at "the washington post" and many other competitors, as you know, what the committee has done is fill in the blanks. kinzinger used that term. they filled in this connective tissue so when they give you a time line as we attempted to do at our newspaper and you have

attempted to do and succeeded many times on the show, they have a few more little pieces of the puzzle, and the pieces add to the shock rather than pull away from it. so, for example, we've all known for a year that donald trump did very little to do -- to almost nothing to interrupt or intervene or act as a commander in chief to protect the country on january 6th or to protect his vice president or the gop lawmakers of his party or to protect law enforcement officers who were being stabbed and bear sprayed. we all know that, but i think what's fascinating about the committee is, and what i'll be looking for is more of that connective tissue where they show the moment where pat cipollone says to mark meadows, the chief of staff, we have to f-ing do something. the vice president is going to be hung? what do you mean the president doesn't want to do anything? and i think that that line of

questioning with pat cipollone is going to be really interesting. i also think that -- go ahead, i'm sorry. i can tell you're going to ask something. >> no, no. what i was going to ask is the other piece that they have already started to fill in is his knowledge of violence. i had harry dunn on last week and it's impossible to cover his enthusiasm for hanging mike pence come is something that, thank god, did not happen. when you talk to these officers who were -- five of them have lost their lives since the day of the insurrection. sergeant gannell had to retire and he couldn't continue in his chosen path and he's a veteran and couldn't continue as a law enforcement official. what he's enthusiastic for thank god doesn't happen and that's hanging mike pence, but what we now know he knew was that his supporters were armed to the hilt and they were in hand to hand combat with law enforcement agents. >> that exchange, nicole, still

chills me because -- let's keep in mind that i wrote for almost a decade at the secret service. what do they spend living, breathing every waking moment doing? making sure there's no gun close to the president. the president is furious and saying to his secret service protectors and his white house deputy chief of staff according to one witness that he wants to let them stay armed and he wants to usher them into a screened area and this is the group he's going to at that point now we know, he planned to lead them to the capitol. so it's pretty fascinating that not only doesly want a mob to come to washington on december 15th. he wants and has put a target on the vice president's back, the night before and again on the morning of the rally and on

that morning he's tellth his protectors, these guys aren't here to hurt me. the guys with the guns and let's let them in and i'm going to take them to the capitol. that's pretty interesting about his state of mind and there have been conversations about where doj is going, but in terms of state of mind, that's a lot of good connective tissue. >> you know, harry. the story of the last five and a half years has been the hunt for the smoking gun, but i would pause it that another smoking gun would go on the shelf next to the previous five. mueller had six in volume 2, six crimes of obstruction of justice as well as a shared mission with russia in volume 1. impeachment had -- trump's corruption and criminality has been proven over and over and over again. that doesn't seem to be the point anymore and that doesn't appear to be lost on the 1/6 committee members. they seem to be pointing their case not just to the american people, but to doj squarely. >> i think that's right and our

discussions, nicole, somehow the threshold gets raised higher and higher and higher and we have these more crazy suppositions. what if he really believed that, in fact, he had won? they don't hold up under the evidence and of course, the evidence is about to get a lot thicker, i think, as carol just put it with the sort of connective tissue. we know that basically, this maybe the most monstrous moment of a monstrous presidency. during those hours he is watching tv jubilant, fanning the flames and indifferent, at best and enthusiastic at worst about the prospect of his vice president being hanged. so you don't get worse than that in the annals of the american presidency and an important point here, presidents are basically never alone and there are aides around that they

regard as part of the furniture, but i think you will see people going in and out and bringing them cheeseburgers, but are able to bring sociopathic behavior, but cheering on as they were invading the lives of hundreds of political officials. >> two things harry just said. presidents are never alone. it made my brain jump to last week to a phone call from trump to a support staffer employees and that might be a career person, if they're still there they're working for a democratic president. trump was cheering on people carrying out violence on his behalf. he did that over and over again in full view of the cameras and he did it at his rallies, saying to his supporters, if you get in trouble i'll pay your legal bills. he did that when he talked about

police violence. i like ones that rough people up. his enthusiasm for violence is so well documented that i keep coming back to this cliche, shock, but not surprising that he was cheering on the deadly insurrection. >> like carol, i share this kind of weary familiarity with the way that donald trump has rolled, and he has been this way for decades. so in addition to the january 6th committee showing what his state of mind was during that insurrection and it's useful also to remember how many times in his past he's let things rot or let things unspool that harmed other people that he has no consideration or concern for their well-being. he let his atlantic city casinos rot and didn't care about the impact on the employees who worked there, the residents of atlantic city or his investors. he had rally after rally in

which he incited violence. people got assault at his rallies when he was a candidate for president in 2016. some people took his message beyond his rally and as we know, one person set pipe bombs to journalists and prominent democrats. i don't think trump cared at all that that was the consequence of his actions. when covid-19 landed in the u.s. with full force in early 2020, he was more concerned about the impact on his political prospects than he was about its impact on the health and lives of millions of americans and he set in motion a series of just lazy disregard for good policy, but ended up hurting people and now we find out that on january 6th, he was willing to just sit by while the lives of members of congress and his own vice president were threatened.

we shouldn't be surprised by that because it is baked into who he is. i think he has a craven disregard for other people. he is so self-absorbed and sees the world usually through two lenses, self-aggrandizement or survival and that's what kicks in for him. employ thee and a sense of duty do not, but even if we're weary of all of this, i think the important function of the january 6th committee was despite how much trump beats us over our hads with this krulty is he had managed to focus the conversation on things we they knew that ak ur and i imagined there's hearing will bed most dramatic and pointed distillation of what he was doing inside the white house while watching tv which was

absolutely nothing and even though everyone around him was pressing him to do something, and i think the consequences of that have to be actions by the justice department. i think that donald trump is used to getting away with things for most of his life. he's been insulated from the consequences of his own actions by wealth and then celebrity ask now the powers of the press tensy and it's an important moment to finally be held accountable. >> claire, i want to show you something that congresswoman elaine luria said about where this investigation is. she describes it as ramping up. >> we are seeing new information every day, day by day incorporating new information into what we will present on thursday. you will definitely be hearing from the committee again that timeline or whether it's in the form of hearings or other methods to present the evidence, but you know, we have a responsibility to present the things that we've uncovered and we're talking about how the best

way to do that is after this hearing. >> is your investigation in some ways ramping up with it is new information you're getting? >> i would say so. >> she thinks about it and the answer is it ramping up is yes. so claire, it would appear we may not have seen anything yet. >> well, i think everyone has to remember tomorrow -- thursday and going forward, that all of this evidence is coming from people who wanted trump to be president. they supported donald trump. these were his family members, his closest advisers, the people who helped get him elected, the people to this day defend this guy, but they are factually giving evidence that is a strong indictment of this man, and i know they can't do it in the hearings and it would take too long, but if i were trying this case i would put up in front of the jury what was actually on tv

between 1:45 and 2:20. so they could re-live and remember what the president saw sitting in that small dining room off the oval office, the images that were -- i mean, i remember feeling physically ill between 1:45 and 2:15. a disbelief, a shock to my system that this was happening in our country, and these were people that i cared about that were being threatened. i remember feeling so helpless. imagine when you're not helpless and you enjoy it? >> that's a great idea, claire. >> they really need to see what he was watching. he was watching this, nicole. he was watching this, and he was celebrating, and any normal human being that wasn't a criminal would have said, as president of the united states, i have the power to stop them, and all -- and a witness said

that, he went home when the president told him to. this is really -- this time line is so important. i've been waiting to see this time line. i've talked about this time line for months on end. thursday night we're going to finally see the time line, but i want everybody to remember the evidence is coming from trump supporters and this is what he was watching when he was celebrating. >> it's such a good idea that maybe i'll steal it and we'll spend some time with it leading up to it this week. i was on the air with brian williams for a lot of it and texting with national security officials and saying what am i watching? carol has done an incredible body of reporting on that day, but you're right. re-living it the day we re-lived the day of 9/11 for many, many years is very powerful. carol, i have to get you on the record on what we've learned since friday on the secret service. the subpoena.

the select committee has been informed that the secret service erased messages from january 5th and 6th as a device replacement program in a statement issued july 2022 that it began to reset its mobile phones to fact resetting as part of a pre-planned migration and data res dentd in some phones was lost however, according to the secret service statement none of the texts to the office of inspector general have been lost in the migration. i guess we'll find out if that's true or not. my question to you, carol leon, in ig, the secret service is taking a bullet for the president for the united states, why aren't they demanding to testify publicly and clear the name of their agency? what is going on? >> well, a couple of things are going on, but i want to quick as i can say i don't think claire has got herself a good idea, i

think she's prescient about what's going on on thursday and showing the visual is very important and i think you'll see exactly what she wants to happen, happen in a fashion. so hat's off to you for your crystal balling. the other on the secret service issue, i will say that this is a big mess. the secret service agents, i'm told, want to testify. the ones who are allegedly in the car or providing information to cassidy hutchinson on the day of january 6th when president trump was then alleged to have lunged at his secret service detail leader and the agent in charge of his life and to have launched toward the steering wheel that cassidy hutchinson said was provided to her he has denied to his supervisors and both of them, the detail leader and tony ornato, the white house deputy chief of staff have offered to testify before the

committee. the doj is negotiating the terms for that and the committee and they are discussing this. apparently it's not that front burner because they haven't come up with the date yet. i think they're waiting until after their crescendo hearing of thursday and we will see. it's also problematic because you know, if both of these individuals, both of these secret service personnel say we didn't say what cassidy said. we didn't see what cassidy said it's a he said/she said mess. one thing about the secret service and i'm trying to go quickly so you can get to the meat that you always get to. tonight, the secret service is from all of its teams putting together. emails, meta data and the texts that they tried to comply with the china from the january 6th committee. we don't know what will be in

that totalality other than what's in that question of compliant, responsive material, and they don't know the totality of it, but i promise you as soon as we know we will let you know and i would warn that there will be a lot of missing texts where we just don't know what someone said unless another person steps forward and says, you know, i was on a text string with a secret service agent and here it is. a lot of them are going to be missing. >> that is un -- you know, i worked in the white house, every email i sent was cop ed to who.eop.records and thanks just as a political person and not someone with responsibility for operational securing or the securing of the commander in chief. is this less than two years after an event, carol? >> it's pretty icky timing, right? but here's what i know about the secret service agents.

they don't believe that texts that i share on their phones are government records because they're generally not supposed to be texting government decisions and decision making on a cell phone, and so they view this as like an easy way to communicate about where are we going to go for lunch. are you interested in dating me? i've literally read those texts and they are in my book where agents are discussing their romantic life much more than they're discussing anything else. so it's conceivable to me that agents would back up that stuff? no. we're not backing that up. when instructed, this is how you can save your material. emails, whole other story. those are backed up. if the agency doesn't have that that is stunning and intentional and bizarre, but unfortunately, in practicality, this agency often as a matter of practice does not back up telephone texts. >> it's just amazing that they

would be so different in their practices than the fbi who we all know too much about what's on the texts of the fbi cell phones. carol leonnig, thank you very much for starting us off and everyone else sticks around longer. the odds are stacked against him in the trial. the judge even agreeing that steve bannon has no defense, but what does his trial and a possible conviction mean for the 1/6 committee? the committee still hoping to see the subpoenaed evidence he possesses. plus, the devastating consequences of banning almost all abortions in america. women facing miscarriages and are finding medical care delayed or even denied and the cruelty of overturning roe versus wade continues as some republicans are looking for ways to make it a federal ban, and later in the program, a new report pulls back the curtain on the failed law enforcement response to the

deadly and tragic shooting at a school in uvalde, texas. nearly 400 officials were on the scene. yet the carnage and loss of life went on for more than an hour. all of those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. police stay with us. s after a q. s after a q. police stay with us.s joint pai, swelling, and fatigue. and skyrizi is just 4 doses a year after two starter doses. skyrizi attaches to and reduces a source of excess inflammation that can lead to skin and joint symptoms. with skyrizi, 90% clearer skin and less joint pain is possible. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tewith skyrizi, there's nothing like the feeling of improving my skin and joints...

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subpoena. if you're not familiar with bannon, or if you're at all familiar with bannon that he's insisted that the charges against him would become a misdemeanor from hell going so far as to tell listeners to pray for our enemies because we're going medieval on these people, but as so often takes place when bombastic rhetoric fit for a podcast runs up against the rule of law, the truth is likely to be quite different. bannon's trial is expected to be quite brief. "the washington post" reports in a recent analyst that left it in tatters, what's the point of going to trial if there are no defenses? the judge replied, quote, agreed. we're back with our panel. harry, what's going to happen here? >> he's going to lose. they're going to take the day. i think they're just about on track to pick the jury today and probably the u.s.' case will be

shorter than that and they think there will be a day or less and it's such an open and shut case, nicole. what nichols has taken off the table are the completely meritless arguments about maybe i thought trump was really going to give privilege, et cetera and nichols says rightly and those are irrelevant, we are basically down to did you get the notice and did you refuse the notice? not much more to say. i think he'll try a few little tricks to smuggle in the stuff he's not supposed to, and we ought to have the case by thursday or friday and i think he'll be convicted and i think he'll do a little jail time and historically people convicted of these crimes don't, but he, as you say have been flamboyant and have tried to play the legal system as -- for a sucker and i think that will matter to the doj. >> claire, he has played a guy who doesn't care about going to jail when we know from the news

reporting around the time that he sought a pardon that he desperately, desperately does not want to spend a second in jail. i think he got one of the last pardons of the trump presidency after he swindled trump supporters on the build the wall foundation. he was hiding out on a yacht. and i may have the kind of shift wrong there, but this is not someone who wants to spend time in jail and yet, that's where his participation and the insurrection may be leading him. >> yeah. i don't know about you, but i have a hard time keeping track of all of the people that have been indicted and convicted and pardoned. >> pardoned. >> seriously, we could do four or five hours just from all of the people in the trump circle that have been indicted for their nefarious activities and this is a guy who thought he could surf off of notoriety of thumbing his nose at congress and here's the lesson. if you're a private citizen and you get a subpoena from congress, you must comply.

it's not that complicated. and he's trying to do all of this -- and this judge is having none of it, and i think my friend is right. unless there's a ringer on the jury that manages to not be truthful during voir dire this won't take long, and it's open and shut. i do think that because of the way he's thumbed his nose and the way he's gone about this, i think he will do some time and boy, i don't think there's anybody who deserves it more. well, i can think of one guy, but he's still playing golf at this point. >> tim, the pardon -- the president's pardoned advisers, as a group, super interesting. mike flinn is in the oval with overstock guy who dated a russian spy. steve bannon is about to stand trial and in harry's best guess,

and roger stone charged with seditious conspiracy right-wing domestic violence extremist. do we think what the price of a pardon was for those three? i don't know that we'll ever know, i hope that even if we don't know they still get held to account and i think that's the lesson of steve bannon. he's an epic crackpot and donald trump has spent his life surrounded by crackpot because he's a crackpot, and so he's unusually vulnerable to, i think, the conspiracy theories that crackpots around him draw for him. from the moment that bannon was arraigned on this he did thumb his nose at the authorities and he thumbed his nose at the idea that the law was going to reach out and touch him, and i think all of them, the entire group,

flinn, stone, bannon, et cetera, et cetera, watch how donald trump rolls and rolls and think they can mimic him and get away with what he has done, and i think the virtue of what's happening now to bannon in court is that the judge in this case doesn't care about his bravado. he's going to hold him to account. >> harry littman, tim o brian, thank you both so much. claire sticks around longer. there's brand-new reporting about anti-abortion rights groups and how they're scrambling to tone down the extreme language and extreme policies in the form of something we've been talking about for a year now. the strict state bans coming out of those state legislatures. they actually know that the public doesn't support them. the report or that political calculation joins us next. calculation joins us next.

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was so bad i would be in a lot of pain. i was unable to eat. it was very hard. kimberly came to clearchoice with a bunch of missing teeth,

struggling with pain, with dental disease. clearchoice dental implants solved her dental issues. [ kimberly ] i feel so much better. i feel energized to go outside and play with my daughter. i can ate anything. like, i don't have to worry. clearchoice changed my life. your states attorney general is trying to reinstate a 1901 law from before arizona was a state which bans all abortion except to save the life of a mother. would you support that? should abortion be banned in arizona? >> well, listen, dana. i know you know that i'm proudly pro-life. this will be left to the courts to decide, but ultimately it should come back to the legislatures and the people to make these decisions. >> so do you support a total ban or do you not?

what do you personally believe as governor? >> what i ran on in 2014 is that i am pro-life with exceptions for life of the mother, rape and incest. >> that was arizona republican governor doug ducey just a few months after he signed a 15-week abortion ban into law, dancing if we can call it that around the question if we can call it that on if he supports a near-total ban on abortion. ducey's response that even some republicans know bad policies are bad politics which is why anti-abortion groups are urging members of the republican party to veer left, stay away from some of the most extreme bills. axios has some brand-new reporting that says they want republicans to rally around one piece of federal legislation. leslie mccavity reports this. a memo from sba, pro-life

america sent to republican lawmakers last week include talking pointses on how to answer hostile abortion questions and a plea not to cede the issue to state lawmakers. anti-abortion lawmakers don't want the issue left entirely up to states that are strengthening abortion rights. the memo urges for republicans to rally around the most ambitious legislation that can achieve consensus rather than split off on competing bills. joining us now the reporter with that scoop, alexy mackinnon, and msnbc contributor. we are also very lucky to be joined by dr. wilkinson, in pediatrics and a colleague of dr. caitlin bernard who took care of and performed an abortion on a 10-year-old victim of rape who had to travel outside of her state to receive medical care. carol is still with us, as well.

alexy, why don't you tell us what you are reporting. >> i appreciate you having me on to talk about there. we are seeing the reversal of roe, and just a few weeks ago, we were hearing from republicans and talking about folks who were anti-abortion saying this isn't going to affect the midterms and people will only care about economy, inflation, crime, things of that nature. now we're seeing folks who are anti-abortion leaders and groups like sba pro-life america encouraging republican lawmakers not to give up on this issue even though the dobbs decision has come down. they're worried that a handful of states will be able to strengthen abortion rights in spite of the reversal of roe and they're basically saying to republicans, these extreme measures that some of your colleagues are proposing across the country in places like louisiana and texas where folks are talking about criminalizing women and people who seek abortions is hurting the overall republican party. they're looking to the 2022

midterms. they're looking ahead to 2024, and they're thinking about how to get the party behind one ban, something like a 15-week ban or six-week ban is what they point to so that they don't have interviews like what you just showed with governor ducey, when they are caught flat-footed trying to explain their position when folks assume they have the most extreme position on this. >> claire, the problem is they do. here's the other problem for them, 63% of all americans support leaving roe in place. 83% of all americans support restrictions and the life of the mother, a whopping 93% ever all americans support exceptions from the life of the mother is on the line. that's not where republicans are. here's today's republican party. the idaho republicans on saturday rejected an amendment change to their party platform voting 412 to 164 that would have allowed abortion to save a mother's life, rejected saving a woman's life.

approved changes that criminalize all abortions for rape and incest except to save the mother's life. if the rapist goes loose, only the victim gets -- >> i am surprised by what is happening in this country. the idea that "the wall street journal" would make an assumption that a doctor telling about performing an abortion on a 10-year-old girl is lying, now think about that. that's astounding that all these republicans couldn't wait to go out let and say this doctor who provided this care was lying about it. what is wrong with these people? i mean, now we have doctors and i know you'll have a doctor talk about this and i don't want to step on her knowledge of the subject, but we have doctors that have spent their entire

lives caring about one thing, their patients, and you know what they have to care about now? whether or not they go to jail and then their patients. and that is what these people have done, whether it's a woman miscarrying or a victim of rape or incest and if the democrats don't make them own it then that would be a tragedy. >> dr. wilkinson, first tell us how the doctor is doing. we read from the op ed that you penned in "the new york times" and i read over the weekend that you and she had penned that together, but when she became a tag at the time was published as just under your name. tell us how she's doing and what your thoughts are just a few days into which is really as claire's describing a tragedy for dr. bernard and the compassionate care she gave this rape victim. >> yeah. thank you so much for having me.

dr. bernard is one of the most compassionate and confident physicians i have ever worked with and so it was heartbreaking to watch her basically reputation attempted ruin on national television. back to what senator mccaskill just said, we watched multiple reporters who claimed that they cared about the facts and editorial boards followed the lead of anti-abortion activists that painted a picture of this story being fake because it didn't fit with their agenda. when this patient is real and there are many other patients just like her out there. >> dr. wilkinson, i had the chance to speak with dr. bernard's lawyer, and i asked her this question and i'll ask you, why can't the pro-life extreme anti-abortion right accept that this 10-year-old rape victim existed?

>> because it makes them uncomfortable and it shows the fallacy of their argument. you know, these decisions belong in the hands of patients, and when legislators and politicians are saying that they know better than patients who live their lives and know their circumstances, and know what is best for them, we should all be alarmed. these decisions do not belong with statehouses. they never should be, but they have been for years and it's time for all of us to fight back and say that that is unacceptable. >> dr. wilkinson, i want to read something else about dr. bernard. the indianapolis star reported that she briefly considered giving up providing abortion care after a threat to kidnap her daughter in 2020. it goes on to say this, dr. bernard testified about the 2020 threat in sworn testimony in an abortion lawsuit last year. the threat caused her to stop working for several months at a south bend abortion clinic she said in her testimony. the fbi advised her on extra security steps she could take

such as taking a different route to work every day. quote, this is a known risk, she said. i knew this going into the job. i knew this going into a state of indiana, and i chose to do it anyway, so therefore when it happens i need to continue the mission i came here for. >> claire made the point, but it is worth reminding everyone every day of the extraordinary risks that physicians like dr. bernard take every day to be able to provide this care. yeah. attacks against abortion providers and people who work in abortion clinics are not new, unfortunately. that is what's so scary. they are being attacked for doing their job, for providing compassionate health care and legal health care that should be accessible by anyone and the fact that anyone would have to question that and put a decision between providing that care and keeping their family safe should be unacceptable to all of us in this country. >> all right. i'm going to ask all of you to

stick around through a quick break. we will all be right back. don't go anywhere. l be right ba. don't go anywhere.

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we're back with a panel. alexa, i want to ask you about your reporting about republicans. i mean, the bans that eliminate exceptions in cases of rape and incest, that idea has been around republican politics so long, i remember when the fringiest pro-life factions advocated them. they were never mainstream.

the republicans watching them deny the reality of a 10-year-old rape victim who had to leave her home state to receive healthcare, was like watching, you know, a dog that caught the car. what did republicans think was going to happen? >> i think, in part, it's sort of what i mentioned before, which is that they were pretty convinced this wouldn't even be an issue that they had to deal with and considered it a victory to the point that this anti-abortion group had to send a memo because they were afraid that republicans on the hill would essentially abdicate their duties in terms of enacting any sort of federal legislation. so i think part of it is really playing catch-up and trying to figure out, looking to groups like sb pro-life america for advice on how to talk about the politics of this and the horrifying tragedies that are very real, like this unfortunate situation with the 10-year-old. but it goes back to something that democrats talk about a lot, which is, again, a right to

privacy and a right to choose, and this is an opportunity for democrats to sort of point out not just the contrast in their thinking but in sort of the way that they view human beings. i think that's an opportunity you might see democrats taking more. >> i mean, claire, it's a tragedy that this is a political issue. it really is. that it ever left the doctor's office and the woman's purview, but i wonder if democrats are as organized and sort of rowing in as concerted of a way and understand what the opportunity to speak out for all women and the opportunity to seize the position that most americans possess. >> listen, they're going to try to make there be a federal ban on all abortions, so that that 10-year-old could not go to indiana, so there would be no place that a woman could go for a safe and legal abortion. they're going try for that.

don't make any mistake about it. that's what they want to do. that's what sba is trying to do. susan b. anthony pro-life organization, they want there to be federal law outlawing it all so there's no safe places for women to go. the other thing is, the unintended consequences they need to own is more than just rape and incest victims. i mean, there is a tragedy of miscarriage, and the doctor maybe will correct me here, but it is very common, miscarriages, and they are heartbreaking to women who suffer them, especially women who desperately want a family. and now, doctors are shying away from giving them the medical treatment they need when there's no fetal heartbeat detected, when the woman knows that she is no longer going to have a child, she cannot get the best medical care because of these laws are holding doctors back because they're afraid they're going to go prison. i mean, that's what the republicans need to own.

that's another tragedy in a long list of tragedies here. >> dr. wilkinson, i'll give you the last word about this subpar care that some women are already experiencing and the kinds of instances claire's talking about, miscarriages. >> yeah, i mean, i want to say, also, that abortion bans with exceptions do not reflect the way medicine is practiced and does not reflect the way patients live their lives. there are no two patients in medicine that are alike. that's why when you try to legislate medicine, it gets very messy very quickly, which is why this blew up so soon after the supreme court ruling. and unfortunately, when you try to create laws that apply to every situation, you're going to get stuck, and so i encourage legislators to leave medical decisions where they belong. that is with patients and with clinical providers that have the training to help them make those decisions. but leave the law making out of this. it never should have been a part of it, and it needs to leave the medical room immediately.

>> alexi, claire mccaskill, thank you very much. dr. tracy wilkinson, thank you for spending time with us today. when we come back, there's new reporting for the january 6th committee to follow details about yet another conservative, fringy lawyer in trump's ear pushing for new ways for him to subvert the results of the 2020 election. we'll bring you that story after a quick break. 020 election we'll bring you that story after we'll bring you that story after a quk icb under control? hide my skin? not me. by hitting eczema where it counts, dupixent helps heal your skin from within, and that means long-lasting clearer skin and fast itch relief for adults. with dupixent, you can show more skin with less eczema. hide my skin? not me. serious allergic reactions can occur that can be severe.

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♪♪ and i told him that the

stuff that his people were shoveling out to the public were bull -- was bull [ bleep ]. i mean, that the claims of fraud were bull [ bleep ]. >> as the president went through them, i went, piece by piece, to say, no, that's false. that is not true. and to correct him, really, in a serial fashion as he moved from one theory to another. >> hi again, everyone, it's 5:00 in the east. when the twice-impeached disgraced ex-president was hearing the truth from bill barr and mr. donohue and others at the top of his justice department, he was very unhappy. he wanted to hear that they would go along with his lies and his schemes to overturn the election results. we know that when the ex-president did not hear that from them, when he didn't get the help he was seeking from inside and atop his own government, he turned outward to people like sidney powell and john eastman and rudy giuliani and brand-new reporting in "the new york times" reveals yet another fringe actor in trump's

ear, conservative lawyer william olsen. the "times" reports this. "the involvement of a person like olson, who now represents the conspiracy theorists and my pillow chief executive mike lindell, underscores how a system that would normally insulate a president had broken down within weeks after the 2020 election. that left trump in direct contact with people who promoted conspiracy theories or questionable legal ideas, telling him not only what he wanted to hear, but also that they, not the public servants advising him, were the only ones he could trust." olson, who previously promoted a false conspiracy theory that vice president kamala harris was not born in the u.s. and would therefore be ineligible to be vice president, wrote a memo to trump outlining extreme plans to overturn president joe biden's victory. here are two shocking steps he advised the ex-president to take. "if the acting a.g. does not commit to exactly challenging

the election in court, replace him with a senate confirmed doj official who will. there are several such persons, either allowing rosen to return to being deputy a.g. or to leave doj. this step will likely bring on a thousand stories, making an analogy to the saturday night massacre in 1973 when president nixon ordered attorney general elliot richardson to fire archibald cox as special counsel investigating watergate." another step outlined in his memo, "task your new white house counsel with identifying how the powers of the presidency can be used to ensure that the people receive a fair election count. if that can be done. our little band of lawyers is working on a memo that explains exactly what you can do. the media will call this martial law, but that's fake news, a concept with which you are familiar." so, recap of what you are hearing here from this lawyer to the pillow guy. fire your acting a.g., a move

olson knew would draw parallels to nixon's saturday night massacre, and then b, declare martial law. that's all. wow. the "times" notes that the 1/6 select committee is exploring olson's role in attempting to overturn the 2020 election. another conspiracy theorist giving the ex-president advice to overturn the election he lost is where we begin this hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. jake sherman is here, the founder of punchbowl news. also joining us, barbara mcquade, and frank figliuzzi, former fbi assistant director for counterintelligence, now the host of "the bureau" podcast, all msnbc contributors. frank, i start with you, because as i read this story, i thought of another parallel government, shadow government, off-book government, whatever you want to call it, that trump set up to dirty up joe biden. he was impeached the first time and that was having rudy giuliani and his political

appointees try to exploit zelenskyy for dirt on the biden family. this is how he functioned as president. >> yep, shadow government, not deep state. that's what we learn every single week, and right now, i've got to erase my white board, i've got to write smaller, because the list of lawyers that kept adding themselves to this attempt to overthrow an election gets longer and longer, and i have to write smaller and smaller because the list is just continuing to grow. this guy, look, you know, just to put this guy in perspective, you've already done it. not only is he currently representing the my pillow guy, but he claimed, of course, that vice president harris was unqualified to be the vp because she wasn't born in the united states. that's where this guy is coming from, and this notion, you know, there's no joke here. he tells donald trump, people may call this martial law, but you know, that's fake news. martial law? what were the details here? what is he talking about? what were we so close to that we narrowly avoided yet again?

and so, here's where i'm at from this investigatively, you know, while the trump defense team may claim, look, you see, donald trump keeps consulting with lawyers. what's wrong with that? well, what's wrong with it, as you opened in this segment, is that the real lawyers, the official lawyers, the experts, kept telling him, including his own attorney general, his own white house counsel, it's not there. the fraud's not there. what we're proposing, what people are telling you, sir, is unlawful, and the more he keeps seeking out alternate opinions, i assert that the more evidence we have of his mindset and intention to do something illegal. that's where i'm coming from. so, keep adding to the fringe, crazy lawyers as more evidence that he's seeking out, desperately, something that nobody would reasonably propose if they were trying to obey the law. >> so, i mean, barbara, he got pretty far on one.

i mean, he did fire his acting a.g. for long enough to name jeffrey clark acting a.g. in the white house call log. and then there's that dramatic meeting in the oval when he essentially plays his character from his tv show, "the apprentice," and picks between the environmental guy and donohue and rosen. let me show you all of the evidence that's been entered into the public record by the 1/6 committee about that. >> jeff clark was proposing that jeff rosen be replaced by jeff clark. and i thought the proposal was asinine. >> i made the point that jeff clark is not even competent to serve as the attorney general. he's never been a criminal attorney. he's an environmental lawyer. how about you go back to your office and we'll call you when there's an oil spill. >> the issue was the use of the justice department, and it's

just so important that the justice department adhere to the facts and the law. >> this was in line with the president saying, what do i have to lose? i said mr. president, within 24, 48, 72 hours, you could have hundreds and hundreds of resignations in the leadership of your entire justice department because of your actions. >> so, the pillow guy's lawyer is right about one thing, barbara, it would have led to a saturday night massacre. but the problems with his, at least, option a, were made clear to the ex-president at the time. >> yeah, you know, this -- to circle back to your question to frank about donald trump trying to get volodymyr zelenskyy to investigate joe biden and hunter biden relating to service on a board in ukraine, it reminds me of the, just say there's an investigation. remember? that's what he wanted president zelenskyy to do. just make an announcement.

and similarly, he seems to want to use the justice document to provide credibility for this claim, a baseless claim, but if it's the justice department that just says, there's fraud, and leave the rest to me, it really is part of his m.o. i also want to point out, nicole, that sometimes i think we're left with this idea, no harm, no foul, he didn't do it so therefore nothing happened, that can't be a crime. but it can. conspiracy does not require the completed crime to occur. it was enough that there was an agreement to violate the law and an overt act in furtherance of it. there's overt acts all over the place in this scheme, and i think there is sufficient evidence to show a conspiracy to defraud the united states in the peaceful transfer of presidential power. >> well, jake, to that point, here's the second piece that the lawyer, mr. olson, advocated, that was to declare martial law. here's flynn talking about that on december 17th. >> he could order the -- within the swing states, if he wanted

to, he could take military capabilities and he could place them in those states and basically re-run an election in each of those states. i mean, it's not unprecedented. i mean, these people out there talking about martial law, it's like it's something that we've never done. martial law has been instituted 64 times, greg, so i'm not calling for that. we have a constitutional process. we clearly have a constitutional process. nick, you highlighted some of that in your previous segment. that has to be followed. >> as he talks, jake, i am reminded that mike flynn is the only person former president obama and former governor chris christie told president trump to steer clear from. here's mike flynn saying, martial law, we do it all the time. >> a few things jumped out. number one, he says it's unprecedented to ask a number of states to re-run their elections in a national presidential election. i'm not -- correct me if i'm

wrong. i don't remember any instance where the president has indicated that several states should re-run their entire election. so, that is the first thing that sticks out to me. number two, as it relates to this lawyer, nicole, this gets into the rub of where the january 6th committee is -- i don't want to say, having trouble, because they're not having trouble, but why this investigation might go on and on and on, because all of these things keep sprouting up. we didn't know about this attorney until the "new york times" reported on it and had this insane memo, and now there's an entire line of new investigations that it needs to look into. so, i mean, you're just dealing with the situation where the committee is trying to wrap up its work, and by the way, it has this congressional calendar. i mean, the midterm elections are 100 or so days away, right? so it's not -- they don't have endless time here. but this thursday was supposed to be the last hearing at 8:00

this thursday night, which i'm sure you can watch here on msnbc, but we're going to now have, according to adam kinzinger and other members of the committee, they are not -- kinzinger said last week, we are not wrapping up this investigation. we anticipate more work. they're going to do another hearing when they put their work -- their report out. it's just, they have an abundance of information and leads that they are following, and it makes it quite difficult to wrap up this investigation and give some finality to it, because, again, there's just so many threads to pull on. >> well, jake, let me follow up with you. congresswoman lofgren, congressman kinzinger made the point you're making. you know as a journalist, scoops beget scoops, information begets information. congresswoman luria went so far as to describe the investigation as ramping up. talk about the scenarios for their work, and it's clear the purpose is to flush into the

public as much of this evidence as possible out of a concern, if we will/belief that doj isn't conducting a particularly robust probe into trump. >> a lot of threads to pull on there, nicole. number one, they are building the public case against trump and trying to flesh out both for historical purposes and also, quite frankly, for -- to expose the insanity that was going on in the white house for that month or so. number one. number two, i mean, liz cheney made it clear, she wants donald trump nowhere close to the oval office, whether she'll say it or not, that is implicit on what this committee is doing. that they believe he is not fit and he should never be president again. the constraints, the obvious constraints here, again, are the congressional calendar, the midterm election, and the likelihood, while not certainty, the likelihood, if you're a gambling man or woman, that the republicans will take over the majority in 2023 and probably

dismantle this committee or at least change out its membership and redirect its purpose. and you know, they've talked about trying to find the reasons why the capitol wasn't protected, that's a whole other can of worms. but on top of that, we've heard, in the last week or so, what doj has asked for. i mean, doj is coming to this committee, hat in hand, seeking the investigative material that it has collected. not unheard of. congress does come up with good information once in a while. but they have asked for the information about the bogus electors. they have -- and that is the only information that they're sharing at this point, which, to me, is a little bit stunning. i'm not a lawyer. i'll defer to barbara and frank here, but to me, that seems like there's so much information here. barbara noted about the conspiracy to defraud the united states. i mean, it seems like there's just so much here that the doj can pull on, and i have told this to you before, nicole, the pressure up here from democrats, from members of congress on the

democratic side, for doj to do something is just overwhelming. i can tell you, it's absolutely overwhelming. >> yeah, and i mean, barbara, trump has been investigated before. we know he's not under investigation because we know what he sounds like when he is. we know he leaks. we know he attacks. maybe that's why they're keeping it quiet. but no serious person thinks they have commenced a serious investigation of donald trump. as we sit here today, with another piece of the puzzle fleshed out by journalists and congress, what is your working theory of what is going on at doj? >> i think doj is working this case the way they typically do. they investigate crimes, not people. eventually, they're working their way up, and it will be very difficult, i think, to avoid investigating donald trump, if they're not already. we know that they have been looking at the phones of john eastman, the phones of jeffrey clark, i mean, these are people not related to the physical attack on the capitol, but these schemes to cling to power.

and so, maybe donald trump is not a target in name, but he is certainly got to be a subject within the crosshairs of this investigation. >> frank, do you see it that way? and what would an investigation into trump look like? >> yeah, i do see it that way. i think barb's right, but the question, of course, that everybody's thinking about is, is that typical approach, that doj approach, you know, work your way up, flip somebody, keep working your way up, is that right for this moment? by that, i mean, with an imminent threat to democracy, is that the right approach? should there be another way to tackle this, that comes at it from all angles? encouragingly, last week, there were public reports that doj has added additional resources to the team looking at january 6th under the designated u.s. attorney that's leading that effort. so that's good news.

not clear how many more. not sure what that number is. but this issue of urgency, understanding the moment, contrast with the very real tension of looking like you've become political and looking like you're rushing for the midterms or you're rushing for the next presidential election. and when you rush, you get sloppy, and you don't get it right, and we talked before about how essential it is that they get this right. your going to get one shot at trump, and that's all you're going to get. so, i understand that. and with regards to really high-profile subjects, it's been my experience that you often see a code name given to an umbrella investigation, and you wait until the very last minute to throw that high-profile person's name into the subject line, because things leak. because people might be able to see it that don't need to see that subject line, right? so, code name is probably what we're looking at. hesitating to put people's names in the subject line until the very last minute. >> wow. all right. you've given us plenty to think

about. jake, any real quick predictions about thursday night, what sort of blanks they filled in as congressman kinzinger teased out yesterday? >> i think it's going to be riveting. they're going to talk about what trump was not doing during the 100-something minutes of the insurrection here the at the capitol. i have one thing to add. one democratic member of congress said to me, what will it say to the public if after all of this information is unearthed, this entire story told, and unravelled in front of a television audience, leading papers every day, and nothing is done? and the only charges that are filed are basically because people didn't cooperate with congress? it's just something interesting to think about, that there's this entire investigation, and then republicans take the majority, let's say doj doesn't do anything, we have no idea what doj's going to do, and then the screen goes black.

something to think about, which one member of congress brought up to me last week. >> no, it's the nightmare, right? you reveal these egregious and brazen crimes, and the screen goes black, as you just shared. that is the nightmare scenario. i'm sure on the minds of not just democratics. jake sherman, thank you so much. barbara and frank stick around a little bit longer. after the break, egregiously poor decision making and systemic failures. that's just the beginning of what the texas house found in its investigation of the response to the tragic and deadly massacre at robb elementary school in uvalde, it can. plus a veteran political insider is joining us to pull back the curtain on some of the most captivating campaigns in recent history and her life. and exploding demand nationwide for reforms to the supreme court, following its decision to overturn abortion access. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. cision to o access in one easy appointment... ♪ pop rock music ♪

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[ ominous music playing ] it's here. are you ready? let's go baby! [ screaming ] what happens next? you'll know soon enough. while it is painful and can feel extraordinarily difficult to hear every new detail, the fact-finding mission surrounding the deadly massacre in uvalde, texas, is perhaps the most important thing happening right now. especially today. a new 77-page report from the texas state house committee charged with investigating that state's deadliest school shooting is so far the fullest, most comprehensive account of what actually happened that day. the primary takeaway, the, "egregiously poor decision making" on the part of responding agencies, state and federal. there were 376 law enforcement

officers there at the school that day. it's a number "the texas tribune" points out is larger than the garrison that defeated the alamo. but the scene was chaotic with breakdowns in leadership, basic communications, and sufficient urgency. imagine that. new police body cam video reinforces the confusion many officers were feeling in those moments as the situation was still active. the mayor in uvalde announced yesterday that that city's acting police chief has been placed on leave. we're back with barbara and frank. frank, you go even further, and you are talking about criminal charges. explain. >> yeah, nicole, i do think it's time to explore the possibility of criminal charges against police leadership present that day. here's why. first of all, there are two very applicable texas statutes that should be explored. both relate to endangering or abandoning children. both speak to reckless omission, so it's not that you have to be

charged for something you did, but you can also be charged for something you didn't do, for placing a child, particularly under the age of 15, in a place of imminent danger, of serious bodily harm, death, or even physical or mental impairment. i think there's a strong argument for that in terms of what happened that day. what happened that day, or more importantly, what didn't happen that day is so contrary to established policies and protocols and training, even the training that was hosted by the uvalde school police department back in march. it's so contrary to that, that no reasonable police officer -- because these laws i'm quoting in the column actually say, no similarly situated reasonable person. well, let's look to similarly situated and trained reasonable chiefs of police, and whether they would have done something very different, and the answer is, yes. the law enforcement officers i'm speaking to in and out of service, retired and active duty, are all using words like, ashamed, embarrassed by their

peers and colleagues in uvalde. that's seldom what you hear, and while it was difficult for me to watch this entire video and write about it and recommend exploring criminal charges for what happened, the tragic things that happened that day and what must be experienced not only by the families but by the officers there that day, it's time to do that. and to get to the truth here. we're not going to get to the full truth with regard to the state house in texas doing a very comprehensive piece of inquiry, nor are we going to get there from the doj inquiry. it's going to be better. it's going to be full. we're going to get all kinds of best and worst practices out of it, but the chief of police for the schools, through his attorney, has already said he's reticent to speak because he thinks a grand jury is coming. let's do it. because we're not going to get, otherwise, to the truth, and we have to hold people accountable and send a message moving forward for future police

departments that this can't happen again. >> well, i mean, barbara, there's something shocking. frank was on the air with me as this was unfolding, and was the last person to even raise questions about the law enforcement response, because it is assumed that on those days, the heroes are the guys with the badges. that was not the case this day. the heroes were the little boys and girls in the classroom, some of them covered in blood, to play dead, trying to call for help, which was right outside the door. what do you make of the finding in this report? >> well, there's something called the national incident management system, nicole, that all police departments are trained in, and the idea is, sometimes you do have these incident command situations where you need to layer in a local police department, the fbi comes in, the state police, the border patrol, as they did here, and so the training gives them all a common vocabulary, a common structure, a command structure, so that they all know what to do, and the right hand

knows what the left is doing. but the key to that is an incident commander needs to take charge, and it sounds here like the school's chief of police abandoned his post, didn't do what he needed to do. that's okay as long as he hands off power to someone else. if someone else comes in and is more clearly capable of handling that situation because the stakes have escalated, that's fine, but there needs to be clear communication about that. and here, it appears that was not done. so, it is a failure of training, but i don't think we can just throw up our hands and say, oh, well, try harder next time. i'm not one of these people who thinks you should charge someone criminally for making a poor policy decision in government, but if you fail to follow through in your job, and part of the training is, you might need to walk into a room that is very dangerous with gunmen to save citizens. that is part of the job. and if you're not willing to do that part of the job, you should resign. and so, if people failed to do what they need to do because they were fearful, not just simply because they were

incompetent, then i'm with frank, that perhaps we need to be looking at criminal accountability here. >> and on the gun side of the conversation, there was another tragic mass shooting last night in a mall. four people are dead in indiana. we never -- you never have any sameness in your observations and analysis, because each tragedy destroys the lives of every victim, of everyone that's ensnared. but there is a steady pace of mass shootings in america, frank. do you see any signs of any ability as a country to do anything to turn that around? >> i mean, look, what chris murphy did from connecticut in bringing together a bipartisan piece of legislation and getting it through and signed by the president is commendable, but it is a drop in the bucket in terms of touching the nature of the problem we have here.

you know, we're talking about enhanced background checks for people under 21 to buy assault-style rifles. no, we need to ban young people under age 21 from buying assault-style weapons because the data is screaming at us that that's the demographic that's involved in mass shootings. yes, of course, we have a mental health problem. yes, of course, we have a social media problem. why can't we walk and chew gum at the same time? why can't we address these issues simultaneously? and so, no, discouragingly, i don't see significant movement on this, and if massacres at elementary schools aren't going to do it for us, i don't know what will. >> yeah. i mean, that's the sad and blunt truth of this, right? barbara mcquade and frank figliuzzi, thank you so much for spending time with us today. we are grateful. up next for us, why the woman who helped launch mayor pete into the political spotlight says he helped her,

helped he store her faith in politics. we'll bring you that next. r fain politics we'll bring you that next.

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strategist liz smith who has works for democrats from john edwards to president obama and most recently pete buttigieg, reveals a no holds barred look at what it's really like to be in the political spotlight. even when the glare of those lights is turned on you. smith writes this, "the ls i've taken don't define politics for me. i've learned around every corner of every disappointment, there is possibility, that for every politician who lets you down, even after you put your faith in them, there's a new, fresh face who can redeem your belief in the process. i still believe in the power of politics to improve people's lives. i still believe that there is hope for the future, that every day, week, and year, there are future leaders coming out of the woodwork who have the potential to change the world if we give them a chance." joining us now, liz smith, democratic strategist, former senior advisor to pete buttigieg, pete buttigieg's 2020 presidential campaign, the author of the tremendous new political memoir, "any given

tuesday: a little love story." it's out tomorrow. this is so good. i am a rabid consumer of political memoirs, and until i read this, george's "all too human" was to me one of the more compelling ones. yours was right there and i want to know why you wrote it. >> first of all, i have to say that is the biggest compliment ever, because i must have read that book three times when i was writing this, because i thought, you know, we've both been behind the scenes of politics, and it was something that really gave you a no-holds-barred view at it. like, the positive side, the negative side, and it was something that -- where both george was vulnerable and he also went into some of the clintons' vulnerabilities. but i wrote it because -- and i think, nicole, this is another thing you might be able to relate to, i've worked in politics for, like, nearly 20 years, and every single year, i get the same question, any time i go to a dinner party.

so, what do you actually do? how did you actually get into politics? what's it actually like? and when you think about our business, it is a business that touches every part of everyone's lives, whether they like it or not, and that is something that has become increasingly clear in the last few years with, you know, the devastation of covid and the dobbs decision, and i wanted to write something very honest that would explain the process to people and hopefully encourage more people to get involved, especially more young women, and hopefully that's something we can talk about a little bit more in this conversation. >> yeah, i want to wait and do a lightning round later. i want to go deep on what i feel like is the moral of your story, and it's a place i didn't get to in politics. i mean, you flirt with the cliff of disillusionment and then i guess for me, my sliding doors moment is, that's where i drop off. you meet pete buttigieg.

explain how he brings you back. >> yeah. you know, i had had a tough few years. i had been fired by the new york -- the incoming mayor of new york because of who my boyfriend was and been splashed all over the new york tabloids and called every misogynistic name under the sun, and that's obviously not an easy thing to go through. then, i went through a losing presidential campaign when i was working for martin o'malley. then, like everyone else, i see donald trump get elected. i was horrified and disillusioned, and you know, i was shocked. it's not like i was immune to hillary clinton's flaws, but i never thought that this country would elect donald trump. so, there i am, december 2016, and i'm just, like, looking back on my life and wondering, should i have gone to law school? should i have made a different decision? and i get an email out of the blue, and it's, do you want to

meet with this guy, pete buttigieg? and my first response was, you know, glib, as i often can be, and i was like, oh, tough name. which it is. let's be clear. it is. but as soon as i met him, i was completely transfixed by him, and i remember, i think, early on in the 2020 campaign, that you sort of described him as, like, chicken soup for the soul, and -- >> yes. >> right. and the first time i sat down with him, that's really how he came across to me, which is that, there was so much escalation of political rhetoric, and politics was getting nastier and nastier, and he was someone who, you know, not to be cheesy or cliche, but sort of brought us back to appealing to the better angels of ourselves and in politics,

and i liked that, even when he was running for dnc chair, he would do outreach to republicans who obviously are not, you know, among the dnc chair voters, by saying that, your vote in the 2016 election doesn't define you, and i want your support. i want everyone on board. and it was just an inclusive, warm, positive message that i wasn't hearing from anyone in politics at the time. and that sort of warmed my, you know, sort of cold heart that i thought had given up on politics by this point in my career. >> no, i think i remember, i tweeted that after watching him at a fox forum, and i remember sort of feeling the way you do, that there wasn't anybody else like him. and i feel that way about his husband, chasten, too, i think they're extraordinary humans who have the ability to communicate their sort of good, human cores for the greater good. and i wonder what you think --

not asking about when, but i wonder if you think if a presidential -- another presidential run is in pete's future. >> well, i can tell you what he has said, which is that he doesn't know if he'll run for office again. he's someone who is always focused on sort of what's in front of him, and if he does what's in front of him well, then who knows what the future will bring, but i think he's doing a great job, is a great ambassador for the administration on infrastructure, you know, creating good new jobs, building new roads, bridges, helping underserved communities, so that's where his focus is. obviously, i'm incredibly biased, and i would love to see him run for something in the future, but that's up to him. >> so, we've spent our time on the high road, but you also go low. let me read who you write about de blasio. "de blasio reminded me of the gross, unshowered guy in college who showed up to philosophy 101

and hogged ten minutes of class time to yell about the necessity of seizing the means of production because he read one line of a communism for decimalmys book. i called my mom and a couple friends. i was terrified that someone like de blasio could be tasked with running new york city in the middle of a crisis. this guy can't handle 9/11." brutal, true, and he's responding. publication's tomorrow, and i think de blasio is already scrambling to respond to that. >> and you know what, mayor, if you want to send out another statement, please do, because i need help with promoting my book. but no, i meant every word of that, and it was an -- it was a sort of an example in my career of where i put my ambition ahead of my beliefs. i wanted to be city hall press secretary, so i figured, i'll go along with this guy, who's going to win, but then, you know, karma bit me, because you know,

he found out that i was in a relationship with a controversial figure, the former governor of new york, and he fired me for that reason alone. and he left me out to dry as the new york press tore me apart in terms that would never be used against men in politics, and that was another moment, frankly, where a lot of women might have stepped back and said, i'm out. i'm not going to deal with this. because it was really hard on me, emotionally. it was hard on my family. but again, i did believe in the promise of any given tuesday, and i found myself coming back again. >> i want to ask you what that looks like, because i think we all stumble, but i think women in the public view, there's something in the water that makes adversaries and opponents maybe border on relishing some of that.

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he used in interviews. so much of politics is about people's relationships with themselves. you do better if you make people feel secure in who they are. he was right. he saw me for who i actually was, and for the first time in my adult life, i did too." i get the impression that the mayor pete experience is this sort of magical intersection of your professional -- not ambitions, but ideals, being realized, and sort of a personal hunger to believe again being fulfilled. can you explain that? >> yeah. i would -- yeah. i would agree with that. i had been politically disillusioned, and professionally disillusioned, and i had, i think, taken some of the professional hits very personally, and you know, they led me to question my competence, my ability to do my job, and you know, so -- and you

understand this. so much of politics -- in politics, so much of your life is wrapped up in your job. so much of your identity is wrapped up in your job. i'm not saying it's the healthiest thing in the world. >> right. >> so, when you take this big hit, like i did, you know, the double whammy of getting fired by the mayor and, you know, being insulted across all the tabloids, it was very hurtful to me and to my ego and to my belief in myself, and pete was someone who brought back my belief in politics, but also, my belief in myself, because for so many years, walking into rooms, i found myself, you know, among a sea of guys with gray hair and rumpled brooks brothers suits, you know? and who would sort of chuckle or roll their eyes when i talked,

who would, you know, ask about my relationship status or comment and make jokes like, oh, sorry, i didn't get the memo that today was wear your four-inch heels day. and just, you know, little slights like that. >> yeah. >> that was never my experience with pete. day. just little slights like that. that was never my experience with pete. he treated me like an equal. i was staffer zero. staffer one on his campaign. and from beginning to end, i knew that i always had his ear and that i would always be the last person he'd call before interviews. that sort of confidence he put in me is invaluable. and something that i am very lucky to have had in my life. >> i don't ever accept that a politician who's thriving is nailing the message or a politician that's suffering has a message problem. so i never think of communicators as simply writing

the talking points. your book makes this abundantly clear in a really artful way. you let pete be pete, let claire be claire. that's your approach. i wonder how you would lay that over this white house and how you would help president joe biden be president joe biden. >> well, joe biden is best when he's sort of old uncle scranton joe, out among the people, gripping and grinning and showing that empathetic side of him. and what i would advise is something that i -- from all indications i've heard that they're going to do, is get him out there more on the campaign trail. have him less behind a podium and more in the crowds in the key states that we need to win in the upcoming election. and you know, that's when he's best. because think about the times that we're going through right now. it is undeniable that people are

feeling a lot of pain. they're feeling pain from the lingering effects of the pandemic. they're feeling pain from inflation, feeling pain from gas prices. and he is a politician who is very good at feeling other people's pain. he is not like a lofty orator. that's never been his skill. and i think that was one of his strengths with -- as a running mate to barack obama. barack obama could go out, give these beautiful speeches, take you to church, but he wasn't great in the sort of small intimate settings. that was joe biden. so the more we can kind of ground joe biden, put him among the people where he's just having one-on-one interactions, the better. >> mm-hmm. the voters want to see him behind the podium more said no campaign strategist ever. lis, you have to come back. i do want to talk to you.

you have some great insights about the democratic bench and a really positive take, more positive than a lot of folks in washington, so i'm going to ask you to come back at a later stop. the book is out now. it's called "any given tuesday", a political love story. thank you and good luck. >> thank you, and i'd love to be back. >> okay, we'll do that. quick break for us. we will be right back. that quick break for us quick break for us we will be right back.! w-o-o-o-o-o... yeah, feel the savings. priceline. every trip is a big deal. the minions are coming to ihop. with an all new menu you're going to love. excuse me! enjoy the minions menu at ihop. for a limited time kids eat free! and catch minions: the rise of gru. godaddy lets you sell from your online store or in person and manage it all from one spot. trusted by over 20 million customers worldwide,

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thank you so much for letting us into your homes in these extraordinary times. "the beat" with ari melber starts right now. >> i'm ari melber reporngiv