good morning it is sunday july

24th. i am sam stein filling in for the one and only ali velshi. one month ago today the supreme court overturned roe v. wade. this immediately and radically reshaped abortion rights around the country. these are the 26 states that were considered certain or likely to ban abortion in the post roe era. more than a dozen of them have already taken action to do so. today, there is not a single provider offering abortion services in the united states. forcing residents to travel across state lines for basic and essential health care. seven other states banned abortion at a much earlier point. it was previously allowed when roe was the law of the land. in the coming weeks at least three more states, north dakota, wyoming, and indiana, are expected to enact total abortion bans. let the constitutional protections for abortion that were provided, access is quickly shrinking around the country. nowhere is that more evident than in the south, where

abortion access is almost entirely a thing of the past. just one month, alabama, arkansas, mississippi, oklahoma and texas all began enforcing total abortion bans. meanwhile, your total six-week bands are in effect in georgia, south carolina, and tennessee, while florida has a 15-week ban. that leaves louisiana as the only state in the region where abortion is legal. but abortion rights in louisiana are remaining extremely vulnerable. the state has been locked in a legal battle over its abortion ban, which is so far resulted in multiple court orders that force to the state to change course now fewer than four times in the past month. currently, abortion providers are able to provide care, after a judge bought the band for a second time. but to the uncertainty of the law in louisiana has already had a chilling effect. there was fear and confusion, which is already resulted in some dangerously traumatic situations. in one, brave files for the

court, doctor from new orleans recounted the story of a pregnant woman whose water broke during her 16th week of pregnancy. the fetus has no chance of survival outside of the womb, so the doctor recommended an abortion to quote, quickly and safely and the pregnancy. after the patient consented to the procedure, the hospitals lawyer informed the doctor that the procedure was no longer legal. as a result, the doctor wrote, quote. this particular patient was forced to go through a painful, hours logged labor to deliver a non viable fetus, despite her wishes invest medical advice. she was screaming. not from pain but from the emotional trauma she was experiencing. then, after all of that, it was taking hours for the placenta to deliver. she began hemorrhaging. this was the first time in my 15 year career that i could not give a patient the care they needed. this is a travesty. joining me now is nancy --

she is the president and ceo of the center for reproductive rights, one of the organizations involved in a legal challenge against the abortion ban in multiple states, which includes louisiana. nancy, thank you for joining. us really appreciate it. let's start with the story from orleans. how often are you hearing these sorts of horror stories from across the country now? >> it is absolutely frequents that these stories are happening. the fact that there is an attempt to criminalize abortion care across the south and in the midwest means that people who are having obstetric a merge unseat is like the doctor in our case have pointed out in that story that you just told me that they are not getting the medical care that they need. it is just a public health emergency when pregnant people the woman who are pregnant, cannot get the standard of care they need when they are having it. in an emergency like that. in addition to that people are

looking to end their pregnancies are not able to get them in many states. we are absolutely thrilled that we now have a preliminary injunction in louisiana. we have been fighting since roe was reversed a month ago. right now there is a juncture in place, and services are available in the state of louisiana. we will keep fighting to make sure they are open and available. >> in response to these types of stories, what you get from the antiabortion side of the equation is some sort of argument that look, doctors and lawyers are fundamentally misinterpreting the law. they are wrong here. it actually allows for objections and cases like this. are they right? >> absolutely not. the way these laws are drafted require you to be a little early on the verge of some kind of life-threatening situation. they do not let the doctors take action. we just saw that in the story

that you shared with us. you cannot take the action that is needed so that you do not end up on the verge of truly a life-threatening emergency. so it is absolutely incorrect that this is allowing abortions to take place, when there is an emergency, medically necessary region to do so. it is just not true. >> i guess the other issue here is the ambiguity of what constitutes the legal limits. abortion providers in louisiana, for instance, it does not indicate that that is a legal ambiguity. in louisiana, multiple court orders from different charges have blocked the ban. what's kind of environment does that create for medical practitioners, doctor, if you do want to provide care but maybe worry that they are going to run afoul of the law? >> but it is absolutely issuing the effect on providers when they have to have a lawyer at their hand to figure out the best care, but they want to give the standard of care to

their patients. it is important right now to understand we do about this preliminary judgment in effect in louisiana. right now the court has said that services can go forward, without worrying about these trigger bands. and that there will be more courts challenges to come. but it is just this unfolding public health emergency, and people need to keep tracking it. you can go to our website and see what is happening in each state. it is important for people to remain educated and to take action, because this is just an unacceptable situation. >> it louisiana is in limbo, but elsewhere in the south, as we know, abortion access is essentially more or less gone. there is a 15-week ban in place, but that would have been considered an absolutely draconian restriction in a row era. i guess the question for you is, are you surprised at how fast this all has played out? are you also surprised that more states have not actually settled on something like

florida, which is an incredible restriction, but also still allows for up to 15 weeks? >> well, we have a set from dr. bryce who have been tracking this since 2004. we have been ringing the alarm bells for a very long time on this. so i'm not surprised it has been so swift in the months since roe v. wade was overturned. the states have sought to enact their trigger bans and sought to enact their long enjoying laws, and put them into effect. but the important thing to focus on is just a terrible impact this is having on women and pregnant people throughout the south. and the crisis that is creating. and the fear and confusion. people wearing on the phone this week with a family member with someone in a state, and they were worried, because the husband travel with his wife to a state where it is legal? they were concerned about that? this is no way to have health care provided in this country. so, again it is important for

everybody to be aware, and really took action to make it clear that this is an unacceptable situation. >> nancy northup, thank you so much for joining. us really appreciate. joining me now is dr. wilson march, she's an ob/gyn specializing in paternal in fetal medicine in ohio. this six-week abortion ban that took effect just hours after roe is overturned. the six week of a pregnancy, we should note, is before many people even found out they are pregnant. the ohio law does not include expressions for rape or incest. it does include an exception to save the life of the patient. we were just hearing from, and speaking to, nancy northup about this one case where a doctor was not allowed to perform unimportant procedure because a lot there. in the months since ohio law took effect, have you found yourself in a situation like that where you basically wanted to provide medical care to a patient, but weren't sure if you are legally able to do so, and having to wait on the

lawyers guidance? >> high, same thing for having me on today. unfortunately, even though it has only been a month. in my practice in cleveland we have already had a few cases like this. my partner had a similar patient with ruptured membranes in the second trimester. she was actually really sick with an infection in her uterus, and needed an emergency abortion. and even in that case where we know that it is probably legal, the care was somewhat delayed by talking to a lawyer, worrying about documentation. we had to make sure that we had a nursing team and our team in history co2 me that we're willing to do the case. because everybody is scared of the little ramifications and what is going to happen to them if they participate. >> i want to drill down on that. the law in ohio makes an exception to save the life of a patient. but when do you know that the threshold has then crossed,

that the patient's life is in danger? you could have somebody who is theoretically miscarrying for hours, suffering their, but that threshold may not have been reached. so talk us through the considerations that have to be made there. and the really cool judgments. we use the actual severe questions? daniel just when you say, now the patients life is at risk. >> for us, it is always a gray area. there is no exact threshold. that is why these laws are so scary for doctors. but we want to do is take the best care of our patients to make sure that they are safe. and sometimes that care is delayed, or sometimes that care is -- might not even occur depending on the doctor in the hospital. i have for the patients getting transferred away from hospitals that could have legally taking care of them. because they were afraid of not, you know, following the law. so in the case of somebody who is very very ill it is easy. like at the patient, i was saying, was septic.

but if you are not hemorrhaging or don't have an infection, sometimes we have to wait. >> all right. the point blank question, is gruesome as it may be, is, is someone going to die because of this? >> i would be surprised if somebody already has not died. because of this. but i think somebody definitely will. because we have already seen delays of care. i heard of a patient that had to get life late into another state, or had an end topic pregnancy. and as far as i know it is not illegal to treat and topic pregnancy anywhere, but people are scared of treating them. so this patient had to be life flooded from state to state to be cared for. and that could very easily result in somebody's death. >> jeez. and, you as i understand, just gave birth to twins can see through in vitro fertilization. ivf. in the post roe era, do you believe that antiabortion us could actually transform ivf treatment as we know it. can you explain how and why that will happen?

>> yes. so far, none of the laws specifically address ivf. but a lot of them are giving personhood to embryos, or defining life as beginning as conception or fertilization. and as you know, when people have ivf treatments, they are fertilizing embryos outside of the body. and letting them grow, and then sometimes freezing them, sometimes in planting them. that often results in abnormal embryos. that is just part of the normal ivf process. if we are not allowed to discard, embryos it is not clear that we will be able to continue doing ivf in fertile patients may not be able to have that treatment anymore. >>, then finally, this now infamous case of this young girl in ohio, a ten year old who was raped and had to travel to indiana to get a procedure. indiana is likely to ban abortion pretty soon. they have a special session coming up, which will make the

case. you could not repeat those steps that were taken in that case. two questions for you. how far away should india go, how far away with a patient theoretically have to travel to get abortion services from where you are in a post indiana ban? secondarily, do you have phones coming into support patients who do need to make that out of states travel? >> right now we could still also send people to pennsylvania. but i think that once indiana is out of the picture, it will probably be somewhere like illinois or new york. i think pennsylvania's up in there as well. it may be quite a long distance for our patients to travel. in answer to our second question, there are funds for patients who can't afford to travel in hotels, can't afford the gas or the flight. but the thing about patients who are in -- status is that they may need childcare, they have to take off work.

and sometimes it is just really difficult for people, making it possible for them to contortion. we really actually already had people with fetal abnormalities that could not travel, or force can be the pregnancy because of that. doctor melissa march, thank you so much for giving us the sense of what's going on on the front lines here. i really appreciate it. still ahead, a closer look at the new evidence the january six committee served up to the justice department this week. right after the break, were on the ground in ukraine. with an update on the two americans confirmed dead in the eastern part of that country. please stay with us. stern part of that country stern part of that country please when you have technology that's easier to control... that can scale across all your clouds... we got that right? yeah, we got that. it's easier to be an innovator. so you can do more incredible things. [whistling]

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ukraine, after the u.s. state department confirm the death of two americans in the donbas region yesterday. nbc news has confirmed that one of these people, he's been identified as 31-year-old luke lucyszyn, father of two, who went to ukraine back in early april. the state department did not explain what these two men were doing in ukraine or the nature of their deaths. joining me now is nbc's ellison barber in kyiv, ukraine, who actually spoke with luke's family last night. what can you tell us about luke and how his family is doing? >> hey, awesome, yeah, we spoke to both of his parents. they live in north carolina. they are understandably devastated, grieving this loss,

trying to figure out how and when they tell his two young children that their father will not be coming home. they say they got a call around 4 am on july 19th from the state department telling them that it is possible their son had been killed in the donbas. since then, they say they've been able to piece together more information. as they understand it, they say their sons unit was ambushed by russian forces in eastern ukraine at some point some kind of artillery struck their son, he was struck unconscious. three other members of his unit went out to try and save him. when they were out there trying to help their son, that's when a russian tank reportedly appeared and opened fire on all four of them. his parents say, as they understand, it one of the rounds from that russian tank killed all four of the men. luke came to ukraine because he wanted to help people. his family says that his father's 100 percent ukrainian, this was important to him to come here and try to help. at some point, once he made it

into ukraine, he decided to join the ukrainian military, that's what he did. he was fighting, according to them, was the other american who was killed alongside him. they say this loss, they had concerns about him coming, he was adamant that he wanted to help. listened more of what they told us. >> i tried to talk him out of it, i was not really, i mean, it's a tough situation. they're outnumbered, outgunned, and it's really a hard task to try and completely. >> he didn't go there to be a hero. he was there because he wanted to help people. that's his goal, it was to help people, it wasn't to be named a hero. >> so, as we understand it,

right now, luke was killed alongside another american, a canadian, and a swedish volunteer. he was a father to two, he had an eight year old and a four-year-old. sam. >> nbc's -- in ukraine, thank you so much for that report, really appreciate it. coming, up the house select committee concluded a public hearing this week. we learned a lot. was anyone at the justice department listening? stay with us. t the justic department listening stay with us

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rioters descended on the capitol and lawmakers, staffers, and journalists feared for their lives. we've learned that the danger was so real and so close to them, vice president mike pence, they were radio-ing in with goodbye messages for their families and casey didn't return home that day. instead of imploring his supporters to go home or directing military and law enforcement to help, the select committee said trump watched the violence unfold on fox news, from the comfort of the white house dining room. to this day, the former president has tried to distance himself from the violence on january 6th. and absolve himself of culpability. the committee has been stacking up evidence to the contrary. thursday's hearing, the panel fully re-wrote the narrative, painting a picture of a man determined to stay in power, despite losing reelection. a man sitting at the very center of a coup attempt and a violent insurrection on the u.s. capitol. >> donald trump's plan to

falsely claim victory in 2020, no matter what the facts actually were, was premeditated. here is the worst part, donald trump knows that millions of americans who supported him would stand up and defend our nation where it threatened. it would put their lives and their freedom at stake to protect her. he is praying on their patriotism, he is praying on their sense of justice, and on january 6th donald trump turned their love of country into a weapon against our capitol and our constitution. >> through eight hearings, the select committee has laid out a damning case against the former president. the next question is the big one, whether the justice department will do anything about it? for more on this, i'm joined by ryan riley, justice reporter for nbc news digital. ryan, thank you for joining. what are you hearing from the justice department?

are there any rumblings about, you know, whether they'll pursue a criminal case against trump? what is the latest that garland has given us? >> i mean, it's very clear that the justice department is watching these hearings closely. you know, not to fall into the role of doj defender here, i would say it's important to know how incredibly large this investigation is. right? you're looking at those photos, imagine for every single one of those people you see in that mob inside the capitol, there is gotta be a prosecutor, there has to be an fbi agent assigned to that case. you have to get someone out to go and arrest them. some people are in far lauren parts of the country that are far from the local fbi field office, there's a lot of resources in that area. it takes a tremendous amount of coordination to execute an arrest. you know, if you spread this out over the course of, you know, five years after january 6th, if they continue at the current pace they're going, they might just be able to get everybody who went inside the capitol or who assaulted

officers outside. like, if they continue this pace that they're currently at, they might be able to get by. honestly, they've slowed down somewhat compared to what they're doing at the very beginning of the year. so, it's really just this massive investigation, it's the largest fbi investigation in terms of number of a defendants in american history. i think that's something that really has to breakthrough to people, so, you know, when you're talking about this larger investigation, they're bringing in new resources and bringing in what you might refer to as -- they're bringing in junior prosecutors in these terms positions to take over some of these lower line cases, some of the more senior people can go forward and take up these larger cases against trump. >> right. and note that this is a massive, massive investigation. i guess the distinction is, are they targeting the people who started the capitol riots versus the people who inspired them to storm the capital? i released this next question. friday afternoon, he is found guilty of two counts of

contempt of congress. failure to comply with the subpoena for the january six committee. this is a case of somebody who was inspired, may face some accountability. he faces a maximum of a year in prison. do you think this guilty verdict sends a message to others in trump's orbit who are not cooperating, currently? >> i do. i think it basically says that you have to play all the january six committee. because i do see some people have more legitimate claims to executive privilege, mark meadows type figures, who the justice department did find to prosecute. and i think that is because they did engage with the committee, had some engagement back and forth with the committee which could see and do that, with the ludicrous claim of executive, privilege three years out of the white house by the time january six rolled around. so it really did not have any legal merit, and that is why you saw this case move forward. you present as a pretty simple case to the jury, and the jury

agreed. they worked in, picking a jury for person in, and delivering a verdict within a matter of two and a half hours. so there was a pretty quick turnaround there. >> the flip side of this is that bannon, after everything that happens, he's going right back on this podcast in doing fox news interviews. pretty defiant. and it seems like in some ways he wants to wear the prison sentence as a badge of honor, right? and i am wondering -- >> livestream him straight to prison. >> i am wondering though if you are another person in that part of trump's orbit, let's put those different parts, is this going to become a thing. where you are, like yes, i went to prison for january 6th, and i am proud of it. >> i think we are going to see abandoned type figure that works to a certain extent. but you've certainly seen a couple of defendants who don't have any regrets about what they did. i think they are not too happy. if you are steve bannon, this is going to be fine for him overall.

even if he has to spend some time. he can make a bit of a documentary podcast or whatever about it. i'm sure he will call him during his 15-minute allotted time that he is a lot to be called. having these little segments that are going to call him from jail if he eventually goes there. i think for your average defended this really does have more of a setback. a devastating impact on their lives, and steve bannon, who is going to be just fine. >> all right. nbc's ryan jay riley, thank you for waking up. i know this is really early for you. usually like 11 am. so i appreciate. it >> sam, i've had kids for several years now. >> enough, fair enough. coming up, here's with the new york post editorial board has to say today about the candidate they endorse for president in 2020. quote, trump has proven himself unworthy of being the country's chief executive again. talk about the significance of the conservative outlets dumping on, trump coming up next. dumping on, trump coming u next

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post has drawn the line when it comes to former president donald trump. on friday, the conservative editorial board, the same board that endorsed trump for president in 2020, published an article condemning his inaction during the january 6th riot. he, wrote quote, he was the only person who could stop what was happening. he was the only one in the crowd was listening to. it was incitement by silence. they ended the editorial with a look ahead to the 2024 election, where they in part, quote, it is a matter of principle. it is a matter of character. trump has proven himself on where they to be this country's chief executive again. the wall street journal, also a murdoch-owned entity, and echoed the sentiment within a disloyal of their own. writing, quote, mr. trump took an oath to defend the constitution.

he had a duty as the commander in chief to protect the capitol from a bomb attacking it in his name. he refused. well -- has not endorsed a candidate for president since herbert hoover in 1928. our conservative editorial board made their feelings easy to do. so, riding in concluding the article, with quote, characters revealed in a crisis, and mister pence passed his january 6th trial. mr. trump utterly failed his. joining me now is the host of the sunday show on msnbc, jonathan capehart. jonathan, thank you so much. you are currently, also in addition to be a world famous tv star, and associate editor for the washington post. so you understand very well how editorial boards operate. if you can, to the best of your ability, take us into how the new york post and the wall street journal came to the same basic editorial on the same day,

coming out against donald trump. >> sam, you left out the key qualification that i have. i was also new editorial board of the new york daily knows. so i have been in that environment. and for the new york post, which is trump's favorite paper, it is the home of page six after all, for his favorite hometown paper to come out against him like that, the -- and the wall street journal are both owned, as you pointed out, by rupert murdoch. he's the guy was been telling republicans and conservatives what they should be doing and what they should be thinking. for them to run away from trump like this is a huge, huge deal. and we are going to be talking about that today on the sunday show. sam. in addition to a whole lot of things. -- sims, some of trump's supporters are distancing themselves from trump. others are going all in. 128 candidates across the

country are running on the big lie that led the insurrection. we're gonna have mike leave a bitch, critical contributor. glenn kirschner, and nbc news washington correspondent michelle sender. they are all going to join me to talk about just how dangerous these candidates are to our democracy. we will get the latest of president biden's condition after his covid diagnosis, from the great anthony fauci. also, in just a few weeks voters in kansas will be the first to decide if they want to and abortion rights for candidates currently in that state. constitutional kangaroo congresswoman cherice davis will join in for that discussion. and of, course if it is sunday, it is and gloria. and gloria's coming back to the sunday show. we are going to talk to her about everything from january six to post roe america, to everything. 10 am eastern, on the sunday show, sam. >> jonathan, i apologize for the admission of the most important biographical detail

that you have, that you are a former new york -- good luck on the show today and we will see you sunday. still, ahead get out your -- because it is almost time for this week's meeting of the velshi banned book club. i have two special guests, to, for this meeting. author jacqueline woodson, and none other than ali velshi. we will be right back. none other than ali [whistling]velshi we will be right back. when you have technology that's easier to control... that can scale across all your clouds... we got that right? yeah, we got that. it's easier to be an innovator. so you can do more incredible things.

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weekend, i don't know if you noticed, but the banned book club is very much on. before he left for vacation, he spoke with jacqueline woodson, young peoples poet laureate from 2015 to 2017, the author of today's featured book, brown girl dreaming. talk about the importance of representation and literature. the power of poetry and much much more. today's meeting of the velshi banned book club is officially underway. >> brown girl dreaming is autobiographical, following author jacqueline woodson's childhood as a, quote, brown girl in the late 1960s and 70s. woodson's childhood was flipped when segregated greenville, south carolina and new york city. feeling in the middle of a road, her arms out, fingers pointing north and south. jacqueline grapples with her growing awareness of the civil rights movement, her identity, and individuality, as well as the power of community.

woodson vividly in skillfully captures the mind of a young person, searching for sure footing in a fragmented world. brown girl dreaming is the first book of poetry to be featured here on the velshi banned book club. poetry has not been excluded from the shameful history of censorship in this country or even in the recent uptick in bans, far from it. from alan ginsburg, howell, to shell silver stains iconic, a late in the attic, celebrated by generations of children, to brown girl dreaming, there is a tradition in america banning poetry. we've talked before about the inherent truth of fiction books, the way they shine a spotlight, poetry does that to. it's more of a partial shade, the truth finds you in a palm. in just a few lines and some carefully placed indentations, a poem can put words to the pain of adolescence, the waves of love, and the wake of racism. it illustrates the biggest feelings you felt but could

never properly draw yourself. a good palm is both universal and deeply personal at the same time. woodson took to twitter when she discovered brown girl dreaming was being challenged and wrote, quote, i just found out brown girl dreaming is being challenged because of crt. teachers and librarians hip assisted to the challenges you're having, please. if you click on the tweet and scroll, you'll see hundreds of responses, some from fans of woodson's work, others from teachers who have read her book to their six clay classrooms, several lamenting -- critical race theory. ben book club members hardly need refresher on the frequent messiest of crt. especially when it comes to literature about brown and black people, but here it is. if your middle school child is learning about crt, critical race theory, you have every right to be upset, it's an academic and legal framework that argues races a social construct, it's a theory for college age students to delve into, it's not for little

children. brown girl dreaming is on the example of that, it's an age-appropriate book of race that examines the black experience of the young girl, talking with the black experience isn't critical race theory. the central tenet of the velshi banned book club is that there is never an excuse to hinder access to a book from a person who wants to read it. sometimes we explore interesting and insightful arguments to censor books. miss attribution to sierra tea is not one of those reasons. a school board, lawmaker, or parent takes aim at a book, the prestigious the text is likely irrelevant to them. it's worth noting just how decorated brown girl dreaming is. winning the national book award for young people's literature in 2014, as well as the coretta scott king award, and breonna roared, and the double see -- perhaps the greatest distinction of mull, the author, jacqueline woodson, has been named young peoples poet laureate from 2015 until 2017. right after the break, i'm

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jacqueline woodson, the young peoples part laureate from 2015 to 2017, a mcarthur fellow, and the author brown girl dreaming. jacqueline woodson, thank, you and welcome to the velshi banned book club. >> thanks so much for having me here. i'm so sorry, i'm out on the streets of washington, d.c., on my way to the kennedy center. it's so nice to take some time to talk till. i love you for breaking down crtc. i so appreciate that. >> yeah, it's a bad reason, at least banned for the right reasons. let's talk a little bit about poetry, it's exciting to us. we don't typically have poetry in the banned book club. it's new to us for some people, that's a barrier to entry, they think shakespeare. how do you remove that barrier and get people to take a look at years which is a story like any other? it's an experiential story.

the fact that it's poetry is just another vehicle to get them there. >> well, first and foremost, i think that if you are intimidated by poetry, ignore the line breaks, just read it as though you are reading straight narrative. if you love poetry, look at the line breaks, look at the white space. our first language is poetry. our first books that are read to us our poetry. i'm always surprised that people shy away from it and become intimidated by it. i do think that it's a very simple language to understand if you just put eyes to the page and read the words. i'm not trying to pull any tricks on you. i'm just trying to tell a story. that's why all poets are doing. they are trying to get you to see language in a different way and story in a way you've always seen it. >> let's talk about the ban, i love the fact that judy blume told you about it.

you were surprised by a it. tell me what went through your mind when someone says they don't someone to read your book. >> the first ban where the most recent ben? when judy blume called me to say that she wanted me to be an anthology of hers, which was about, it is called, places i never meant to be, and she said, it's for authors that urban band. i was, like that's not me, i haven't been banned. she's like, oh, yes, you have. that was my first hearing of it. that was decades ago. and then the most recent is of course black brown girl dreaming getting challenge the way it's been challenged. i am always surprised that people want to keep stories from young people, which of course shows us the power story and at the same time, it saddens me that we want our young people to be less learned because we're trying to take stories away from them instead of giving them story. >> in an interview with

washington post, you did admit to removing books from your own children shelves temporarily. tell me a little bit about that and whether that gives you empathy for somebody who wants to take brown girl away from their child. >> i think every parent does that. you know, at the end of the night, when your kids choose the book that has the most words after you've read ten books to them, they're like, read this to me, mommy. also books that i remember there was a chapter book that i didn't love the language in it. i remember the kid in the book said -- and the next thing i knew my daughter was saying, rand, it i was, like you know the word is ran. i did so you can't read these books, i put it aside and said, when you're ready to understand the context of these books, they are there, they're in the house. i would never speak up publicly against the books, which is happening here. i think as parents, we do puree with our young people are reading and what they are ready

for. i knew because my daughter was learning language that she wasn't ready quite yet for a book that was playing with it in a way that was going to be confusing for her. i would never say to them, if my daughter went and said, i insist on reading it, i'm, like do you. >> i want to dive a bit into the text, central theme and brown girl is figuratively and literally finding your voice. jacqui, in the story, you, learns to express herself and understand her identity through storytelling. a number of examples of it. here's one, it's from bush work history lesson, quote, there were slaves, those who could afford to own their freedom, lived in the other side of the wall, and now that place is called wall street. when my teacher says, so, right down all of this means to you, our heads bend over our notebooks, the whole class silent, the whole class belonging somewhere, bush wick. i didn't just appear one day, i didn't just wake up and know how to write my name, i keep

writing. i know that i was a long time coming. some very powerful passage, can you tell me a little bit about this one? >> i grew up in the bush wic section of brooklyn, founded by the dutch. and a free enslaved person. what i started learning about, i meant so much to me as a young person to know that i didn't just come out of nothing. i think that's about the history books teaches, we came from somewhere. i think that's what i fear is trying to be a raised, a young person's place in the world, they are part of a long line of people. when i got to that poem in the book, when i got to that point in my life of understanding that i'm not just jackie who lives on madison street, i'm jacqui who is here because of marianne, who's here because of georgiana, who is here because of the dutch, who is here

because of francisco, the person who helped found the neighborhood i live in. it meant so much to me. it meant so much to me to be legitimized in the context of history. >> the new york times journalist, veronica chain, brigitte wrote a review for brown girl dreaming in 2014, in, it she lamented that you included brown in the title of your book. saying, i worry that such a specific title, might lead a reader, especially teenage white, or to miss what's a big -- she's pitching. would girls are brown north of prompting that they too are invited to this party? what's in the name? >> the name is everything. the name is the specificity of the narrative, it is also inviting everyone to understand this experience, that's the experience of a brown girl. i always quote that, it talks about the importance of kids having mirrors and windows in their fiction. mirrors to see reflections of

themselves, and windows to see experiences that they might not have otherwise seen in the world. so, for me, that title is very intentional, being both a mirror for the brown girls, that's been interesting, you know, southeast asian girls, indian girls, biracial girls, latinx girls, all these people who see mirrors of themselves. for young people and all people who want to understand what that experience of being brown is like. also, what's that window brings, empathy, the more people that learn about other folks, the more they learn about empathy. how we all have a right to walk through this world safely. >> jacqueline woodson, with a great conversation. thank you for joining us here in the velshi banned book club. she is a mccarthy fellow and author of brown girl dreaming. thank you for being with us. >> all right. that does it for me. thank you for watching as i filled in as best we could for ali. you can watch velshi every

saturday and sunday from eight to 10 am eastern. the sunday show with jonathan capehart begins right now. the january 6th select committee is not done yet. and all-star panel joins me to discuss the aftershocks of eight spectacular hearings, and what we can expect when the committee resumes public earrings in the fall. the new global health emergency. what you need to know about monkeypox. doctor anthony fauci is here to talk about that and the latest on president biden's covid symptoms. and, this wire here. >> iran. twice i won twice. and now we may have to do it again. >> republicans face a moment of truth as donald trump drops more hints about running again in 2024. i am jonathan capehart. this is the sunday show.