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buddies and allies to overturn the 2020 election. as we reported on this program at this hour yesterday, mark short, he's of course the former chief of staff to former vice president mike pence, testified before a d.c. grand jury last week. now according to new multiple reports, we also know that a second senior pence aide also testified. that would be greg jacob, pence's legal counsel. both men, of course, had a front row seat to the extraordinary pressure campaign on mike pence by trump and his allies, people like john eastman, to get pence to stop the certification of president joe biden's election victory on january 6th. wall street journal reports these stunning details about their testimony. quote, one area of interest to prosecutors was a january 4th, 2021, oval office meeting where conservative lawyer john eastman pushed pence in trump's presence to either reject the electoral votes outright or suspend the

proceedings and asked several state legislatures to re-examine the results. greg jacob testified to the january 6th select committee about that meeting as well. when he did so, he said that john eastman knew that his plan was a violation of federal law. watch. >> so during that meeting on the 4th, i think i raised the problem that both of mr. eastman's proposals would violate several provisions of the electoral count act is. mr. eastman acknowledged that that was the case, that even what he viewed as the more politically palatable option would violate several provisions, but he thought that we could do so because in his view the electoral count act was unconstitutional. and when i raised concerns that that position would likely lose in court, his view was that the court simply wouldn't get involved. >> pence's lawyer saying that

trump's lawyer knew that what he wanted pence to do was against the law. "the wall street journal" adds this about short and jacob's testimony before the grand jury. quote, prosecutors also asked detailed questions about rudy giuliani, who forwarded to pence's office letters from individual state legislators urging pence to accept false slates of electors claiming trump won from states he actually lost. those false slates of electors, which formed the basis of the entire strategy devised of course by john eastman to overturn the election has been a major focus for the justice department. with subpoenas sent to people tied to the scheme and to state officials who were involved at the state level in the overall effort to secure a second trump term in those last few months. and there's a lot of news on this front as well. subpoenas sent to two arizona republicans last month were just made public. that's thanks to a records request. "washington post" writes this about them, quote, the subpoena's issue to karen fann, she's the president of the arizona senate and senator kelly

townsend seek communications relating to any effort, plan, or attempt to serve as an elector in favor of the then president and then vice president. the documents released monday cast a wide net for any communications that fann and townsend may have had with any member of the executive or legislative branch of the federal government, any representative or agent of trump or his campaign or trump boosters, jenna ellis, bernie caric, rudy giuliani, boris epstein among others. and then there is this a bomb shell piece of reporting breaking in the last couple of hours in the "new york times." the inner workings on the scheme they knew was illegal from the trump campaign and lawyers. it shows that the campaign knew that the slates of fake trump electors were just that, totally bogus, totally fake, meritless. quote, that story says this. in emails reviewed by "the new york times" and authenticated by people who had worked with the trump campaign at the time, one

lawyer involved in the detailed discussions repeatedly used the word fake to refer to the so-called electors. and lawyers working on the proposal made clear that they knew that the pro-trump electors they were putting forward might not hold up to legal scrutiny. there's brand new momentum in the doj investigation into january 6th. it's stand ing right next to brand new stunning revelations about the plot. jacky alemany is here, "washington post." also joining us, maya wiley former assistant u.s. attorney, now president of the leadership conference on civil and human rights, and jake sherman's back. he's of course the founder of punch bowl news and an msnbc political contributor. jackie alemany, this is exactly what liz cheney wanted to happen for all of the evidence of illegality and knowledge of illegality. i mean, every public hearing held both the act and the knowledge and the intent to

commit a corrupt and knowingly illegal act, and now we have new information that the justice department is -- it would appear more aggressively pursuing at higher levels of the trump inner command, at least the fake electors plot. >> yeah, nicolle, each of these developments that you just outlined today i think sort of put all of the -- are starting to put all the pieces to the puzzle together. there's new reporting by "the new york times" which shows that there was some attempt to defraud the american public with those emails showing that trump campaign officials knowingly were pushing this plan, even though they themselves were calling this plan fake. that's something that's going to be extremely important with any criminal prosecution to, again, prove that there was corrupt intent and deliberate effort to defraud the american public. and then on the other side of the spectrum, actual movement from the department of justice

calling in greg jacobs and mark short, two people who are the first outreach that we're hearing from, the department of justice who had firsthand knowledge and were witnesses to the actual actions taking place inside the white house by people like john eastman presenting their plans to overturn the results of the election in part by proposing an alternate slate of electors, a fake slate of electors. and having these two people who have already testified to the january 6th committee come in and testify to that grand jury. of course there are some questions razed here about why the grand jury is hearing from greg jacob and mark short again when they could be just reading the january 6th depositions that they've already provided. it's possible that there is a new line of inquiry here, but all of this suggests that the doj is owning in on the alternate slate of electors, the false slate of electors, this plan that was taking place from

the trump campaign and implemented from the highest levels of people closest to the former president and trying to be implemented at a state level in these battleground states where joe biden had fairly won the election. but the trump campaign was trying to prove otherwise. >>. >> you know, and jake, if you put aside what i think is the most harrowing bucket of testimony that was offered up in the public hearing, and that is all of trump's enthusiasm and knowledge of the violence, his enthusiasm for the chant to hang mike pence, his saying to his senior staff mike deserves it. his saying to his valet at the end of the day at 6:00, mike let me down. put that bucket of evidence aside. the most incriminating thing they showed is early in the public hearings when they put up these lawyers who were in some ways, the quintessential government legal folks who didn't have a ton of emotion in their testimony, but what they testified to came the closest to hitting trump. he's in all these meetings where

eastman's telling pence to do something illegal and in front of trump and pence, east man acknowledges the illegality of said plots. >> reporter: what we're seeing right now, nicolle is probably one of the most stunning things i've ever covered in congressional ask washington politics, which is you have a congressional committee building a public case for indictments. i mean, it's almost like the department of justice is following in the bread crumbs, as jackie laid out, and she's so right of this just wide ranging and broad investigation in which there's just a public case being made so forcefully in front of millions of people almost every week this summer of purported illegality by the former administration and i just saw the preview clip of lester holt speaking to merrick garland, the attorney general, which i guess

we'll air on nbc "nightly news" tonight of him basically suggesting that no one's above the law and the justice department is going to take any act that was illegal quite seriously. i mean, he has said that before, but i could tell are you up here the patience is running thin with the justice department among democrats because this committee has just built up such a massive wealth of information that really cannot be ignored and, frankly, has not been ignored. >> yeah, i mean, jake beat me to the punch. there's a fantastic new interview by my colleague, lester holt. let me show you the clip that jake just previewed for our viewers. >> you said in no uncertainty terms the other day that no one is above the law. >> yeah. >> that said, the indictment of a former president of perhaps candidate for president would arguably tear the country apart. is that your concern as you make your decision down the road

here, do you have to think about things like that? >> look, we pursue justice without fear or favor. we intend to hold everyone, anyone who is criminally responsible for the events surrounding january 6th, for any attempt to interfere with the lawful transfer of power from one administration to another accountable. that's what we do. we don't pay any attention to other issues with respect to that. >> so if donald trump were to become a candidate for president again, that would not change your schedule or how you move forward or don't move forward? >> i'll say again that we will hold accountable anyone who is criminally responsible for attempting to interfere with the transfer, legitimate, lawful transfer of power from one administration to the next. >> so maya, it sounds so different now that as jake sherman just articulated, the country has seen that donald trump was not a bystander to a

plot to stop the peaceful transfer of power. he was the conductor of everies a -- every aspect of it, the enthusiastic booster of violence with knowledge in the room with the plot described as illegal by the person who was the architect of it, john eastman. there's no part of what happened on january 6th that wasn't led by donald trump. what should we make of attorney general garland's words in that context? >> well, i think the attorney general was being quite clear that if they amass enough evidence, we're going to see indictments that include donald trump. that's the way i heard it. now, what we don't know is whether or not the department of justice feels it has sufficient evidence. that's different. but i think to your point, nicolle, this is a noose that has been tightening around the

throat of donald trump thanks to his own actions, his own words, his own deeds, the meetings he was in. his direction action in terms of trying to convince states and party officials to help with the fake elector scheme. i mean, we already know that he was part of that, even before we heard -- learned the news that we've learned today and yesterday. just remember, rusty bowers, remember the speaker of the house from arizona, said that giuliani told him that he only had theories about voter fraud. he didn't have evidence. and we know rudy giuliani has been right in the room with donald trump as well. so look, i think there's no question that the evidence is just staggering and that i would expect to see particularly as this noose is tightening and as we're seeing all these attorneys either turn on trump in the sense of sharing this information out publicly as part of the january 6th hearing, but

also knowing that they're walking into that grand jury and they're not lying because they've already spoken to the january 6th committee. this is pretty damning. >> yeah, maya, i want to do two things. i want to show that rusty bowers clip you're talking about again because this is knowledge, contemporaneous knowledge, and you can remind us why that's so important. knowledge that at the time they knew the claims were baseless. here's that rusty bowers clip you're talking about. >> and i said you didn't bring me the evidence, which was repeated in different iterations for some period of time? >> at some point did one of them make a comment that they didn't have evidence but they had a lot of thetheories? >> that was mr. giuliani. >> what exactly did he say, and how did that come up? >> my recollection, he said we've got lots of theories. we just don't have the evidence. i don't know if that was a gaffe or maybe he didn't think through what he said, but both myself and others in my group, the three in my group and my counsel both remembered that

specifically and afterwards we kind of laughed about it. >> they laughed about it because they didn't think that someone would testify under oath before the country and the congress, but they knew at the time that there was no fraud and that all of the things they were doing were meritless. how does that play into sort of proving a corrupt intent, maya? >> exactly that. that it was corrupt, and it was intentional because, look, if you have some evidence, some reason to believe that what you're saying is true, that maybe something did go awry or that the election was not legitimate in some form and you're asking for something that you could make an argument is lawful, that would be different, but what we're hearing being told to us by a republican from the state of arizona directly out of the mouth of an attorney for donald trump is we don't have the evidence. so the very acts i'm asking you to take, the very acts i know to

be groundless and i think if we add on top of that the fact that this whole green base sweep as co-conspirator peter navarro, i would argue that he's part of this had made very, very clear was an outright effort and attempt to get fake electors and now we have the emails to show donald trump's own attorneys called them fake, at least one of them. >> yeah. >> and then made a joke about using a different word. all of that, all of that speaks to intent, and it speaks to intent as part of a conspiracy and a solicitation for others to conspire to defraud the united states government. >> you also think about greg jacob being before a grand jury. i want to show some more of what greg jacob, mike pence's most senior lawyer said before the 1/6 committee. a january 5th meeting with

eastman where eastman and jacob as two senior government lawyers make sure that the eastman plan is not just illegal but unconstitutional. that it would lose 9-0 in the supreme court. watch. >> dr. eastman knew his theory didn't hold water. mr. jacob, you discussed and even debated this theory at length with dr. eastman. did dr. eastman ever tell you what he thought the u.s. supreme court would do if it had to decide this issue? >> yes. we had an extended discussion an hour and a half to two hours on january 5th, and when i pressed him on the point, i said, john, if the vice president did what you were asking him to do, we would lose 9-0 in the supreme court, wouldn't we? and he initially started, well, i think maybe you would lose only 7-2, and after some further discussion acknowledged, well, yeah, you're right. we would lose 9-0. >> so jackie, again, we don't

know what questions were put before this witness in front of the grand jury, but you've got the corrupt intent. they knew there was no fraud, and you've got knowledge that the plot was both illegal and unconstitutional and that this very conservative supreme court would vote 9-0 against the eastman coup blueprint. yeah, and if you look at those two subpoenas, which my colleagues, devlin barrett and yvette sanchez posted online on "the washington post" website, the subpoenas that went to these republican state lawmakers, they're very interesting and they provide further guidance and suggest the direction that the department of justice is going in. they specifically ask for any communications with any members of the legislative and executive branch that these people were having in order to try to implement the fake elector plan, and so i imagine that jacob and

short were providing further context as to their communications with people like john eastman, boris epstein, rudy giuliani, some of the people mentioned in those emails that maggie haberman and luke broadwell published. i think that, you know, what is so troubling i think for the january 6th committee and a part of their entire thesis that this is a slow rolling insurrection that is still playing out is that maybe greg jacob's theory that this would not fly in the supreme court isn't actually something that still stands in this hyperpoliticized environment right now. there is this theory that you know you've talked about extensively on your show and have guests that have talked about it, the independent legislative theory, that it is a debunked legal theory despite the name that kind of gives it a little bit more, i think, legitimacy than it actually has. but there is concern that it actually has taken hold and it would give the states their -- the full power to regulate their

elections regardless of rulings that would come from a federal level. so this is why the january 6th committee, i think, has found it so important for the department of justice to actually criminally prosecute some oaf these players who were involved in the fake elector scheme because there is concern that it actually is picking up some legal steam in more mainstream conservative legal circles right now. >> yeah, so much important stuff put into this conversation by jackie there, jake. i'm thinking as she's talking about bart gelman's great piece about election officials across the country feel like the system's blinking red. if it's blinking red now, i don't know what comes after red on a color wheel, purple. it's just as dire. we covered the story yesterday about local sheriffs getting involved and trying to prosecute crimes that are nonexistent based on phony claims of election fraud. you've also got eastman still traveling around state

legislatures making his phony case. it also sits at the nexus of violence and threats of violence. if you think about short and jacobs in front of a grand jury, i just wanted to put back up for you because you were in that building, i think it's mark short's description of how they prepared ahead of time on the 5th for what they knew would be a threat of violence to mike pence. let me play that for you. >> the dispute between the president and the vice president had grown to the point where the vice president's chief of staff, mark short, was concerned that the president could in mr. short's words, quote, lash out at the vice president on january 6th. in fact, mr. short was so concerned about it that he talked with the head of the vice president's secret service detail on january 5th, here's mr. short. >> for the vice president's security, and so i wanted to make sure they had the vice president, secret service. aware that likely as these disagreements became more public

that the president would lash out in some way. >> and we all know, jake, from the sort of serious finale of the public hearings how that manifested. we saw the harrowing video matched up with the secret service radio traffic looking for that small window in which to move the vice president and his entire family. >> it's stunning to think how close we all came that day to something cataclysmic happening not only to ourselves but to the country, and i want to come back to one point you said, nicolle, which is the idea of a slow-rolling insurrection, or maybe jackie said it. it's actually -- i agree, and it's actually not even that slow rolling. the speaker of the house in wisconsin said donald trump called him within the last couple of weeks asking him to overturn the election. i mean, this is not -- this is happening now. this is happening now, and and there really isn't any -- the political incentives right now

at the local levels and on capitol hill is to not address these issues. and furthermore the only effort being undertaken to correct elections and to make them nominally more safe is the electoral count act reform, which basically, essentially, the big is to reiterate that the vice president's role in the election counting his ceremonial and they don't really have discretion to overturn the election. so it is alarming. >> it's for all of you to bring it back to what's happening right now is so important. no one's going anywhere. when we come back, congressional republicans running from the facts that have been laid out methodically in prime time on every network including in most cases fox by the january 6th committee, those republicans choose to slam the bipartisan committee's work rather than actually peek at the hearings.

vice chair liz cheney had a clap-back for the ages that we'll show you. plus, an abortion ban is up for debate in the state of indiana, one of the first to consider tighter restrictions after the supreme court overturned the constitutional right to an abortion when it overturned roe versus wade. women and doctors from all over the country are sounding the alarm about what these new laws will mean for women's health and privacy. we'll talk about all of it. later in the program, the twice impeached ex-president causing more headaches for his party today with an appearance in washington, d.c. we'll tell you about it, but we won't play it. all those stories and more when "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. stay with us. k break. stay with us

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the notion now that somehow the committee is incapable of getting to the facts of what happened because kevin mccarthy withdrew his nominees is nonsensical. it also is a diversion, and i point out again nearly every one of our witnesses has been a republican. i would also point out that i think it is highly unlikely and i think you would agree that any of those witnesses' testimony would be any different had the questioning been different. >> that was, of course, liz cheney. she is the republican vice chair of the january 6th committee responding to the lazy criticism from her own party about the bipartisan panel's work, before another more direct truth singer summing up exactly what is wrong with her party, yesterday republican senator tom cotton who voted against the creation of an independent commission to investigate the january 6th

insurrection told a conservative radio host that he has not watched any of the hearings, but he certainly has an opinion about them anyway calling them this, a departure from, quote, anglo american jurisprudence, end quote. cheney tweeted this in response, hey, senator cotton heard you on hugh hewitt criticizing the january 6th hearings. then you said the strangest thing. you admitted you hadn't watched any of them. here's a tip, actually watching them before rendering judgment is more consistent with, quote, anglo-american jurisprudence, end quote. we're back with the panel. can i ask you a dumb question. what are they throwing around here? do you have to watch hugh hughes to know what they're talking about? >> well, i assume that they're talking about that our legal tradition comes from england and that's the anglo part. but i have to say it's absolutely the wrong way to talk about it. it is an american system.

it's one for all of us, and that's exactly why it matters so much that people pay attention to this process. >> jake, there's something else interesting, which is why it amounts to news. i think for a long time republicans who left the party towed a lonely road of trying to clap back against purveyors of disinformation or this was just a lazy takedown. i didn't see any of it, but it's lame. that's a lazy attack, and liz cheney is having none of it. to welcome her to the clap-back of the hypocritical wing of her party is a departure for her. she has to this point not really trolled too many people on twitter ahead of the public hearings and certainly in defense of the integrity of her witnesses, people like cassidy hutchinson, she's been aggress ive on social media and tv.

>> on 99.999% of issues i would argue having covered both of them for a long time, tom cotton and liz cheney are on the same page. they're actually the same on national security and almost every other issue they're the same republican, which makes this even more interesting to me. i want to add something to what cheney said here. what gets lost in this debate is that, actually, it wasn't that republicans, yes, pelosi, nancy pelosi said that jim jordan and jim banks could not serve on this committee. then kevin mccarthy made a conscious decision to not participate. this was nobody's decision besides kevin mccarthy's, so it's not like republicans were shut out of the room. republicans could have taken a role on this committee. they could have had a bipartisan commission. they could have had any number of involvements in this process, but they chose not to have.

it's important to remember that, chose. conscious decision. now, time will tell, politics will tell, and history will tell whether that was the right decision. i've made the argument it was stupid from every point of view, the republicans' point of view, the democrats' point of view, history's point of view, they have no one but themselves to blame that they are not in the room, so the argument that this is a one-party hearing, a, it's not. b, it's not. i mean, they chose to take themselves out of the arena, which is their decision. i mean, what was pelosi supposed to do at that point? oh, well, if kevin mccarthy's not going to put his people on, we're going to fold our tents and go on. idiotic, stupid criticism, not sure where it's going and it doesn't really deserve any real debate at this point, and the leadership doesn't like when people say that, but it's just the reality. >> well, and i mean, jackie, liz is getting to the substantive

piece of this. like follow the thread. what are they saying that bill barr would have said something different, he wouldn't have called trump's, you know, delusions bs. of course he would have. but the broader point is, of course they could not have been on the committee because they committed to the cover-up almost immediately. it was only a period of about, i don't know, 10, 12 days, long enough to say things that were captured in perpetuity by two "new york times" reporters and history has that. for kevin mccarthy, the 25th amendment and impeachment were going to take too long. he was for trump resigning, but he quickly course corrects and becomes part of the rewriting of history, and that will be the stain on his legacy forever, no matter what the future holds in the trump republican party, but they couldn't participate in this committee because erasing the truth about january 6th is their brand. >> yeah, and i think that cheney's closing remarks at the end of that eighth hearing were

really important just to lay out the obvious, which was that all of that testimony that we've heard were not by trump's enemies. they were by people who worked for him, benefitted from him, who got jobs in his administration that normally wouldn't have been available to him. people like attorney general william barr who, you know, were not wall flowers necessarily. people who would probably most likely also fight back against some of these more combative gop lawmakers who, people like jim jordan who ultimately was rejected from being on the campaign because of some conflicts of interest there. remember he was someone who the former president talked to on january 6th and who also, you know, failed to acknowledge that joe biden did fair and squarely win the 2020 election, but -- and i think that's what we're going to continue to see more of

from this committee this month trying to nail down some of those missing components that we haven't yet quite figured out. like, why, exactly minority leader kevin mccarthy suddenly course corrected after his meeting with former president trump at mar-a-lago. what was said during that meeting exactly. so there are still some pieces that the committee, i think, is trying to fill in there. >> that's so important, you're right, liz cheney -- you're both right. liz cheney has come back to the stain on her party that not telling the truth about january 6th will leave in many of her closing statements, and we know the committee's work is far from done. jackie alemany, jake sherman, thank you so much for starting us off for insights. the indiana doctor attacked by the right for performing an abortion on a 10-year-old victim of rape is out with a brand new warning about the dangers of what her state's lawmakers are setting out to do there. that's next. lawmakers are setting out to do there.

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i am a former prosecutor. i specialized in crimes against women and children, and i specialized in child sexual assault cases. the idea that a woman or a child would have endured such an act of violence and then to suggest that she would not have the autonomy and authority to make a

decision about what happens to her body is outrageous. >> vice president kamala harris in indiana as lawmakers in that state began a process of deciding whether they will join the dozens of states that have already banned abortion with almost no exceptions. in the wake of the supreme court decision to take away the constitutional right to abortion. a bill seems likely to pass there, the only remaining question is just how extreme their ban will be. dr. caitlin bernard, of course the indiana doctor who has been attacked by the right for performing an abortion on a 10-year-old rape victim writes this in "the washington post." quote, the indiana legislature contemplating dramatically restricting abortion as many states have done since the supreme court overturned roe. lawmakers will debate the particulars of the law and that's the fate of my patients, they will debate whether to include an exception for rape, whether to require a child incest victim to testify under

oath that her family member abused and impregnated her before she could access medical care. how sick. someone needs to be before they will allow us to save her life, whether to allow a mother to spare her baby from the worst suffering, to spare herself from the unimaginable agony of watching her baby die in her arms. but they will never face my patients. they will never stand in their shoes or hold their hands. they will never know their pain. legislators are the last people who should be in the business of deciding who gets medical care and who does not. joining us, president of naral pro-choice america, maya wiley is back. i haven't spoken to you since the day roe was overturned by the supreme court, a day that we describe around here with a sameness of shocking but not surprising understanding the makeup of the court. but i wonder, it feels like

where we're heading is the nightmare scenario. i mean, these bans without exceptions will do exactly what dr. caitlin bernard described, force mothers with unviable pregnancies to give birth to children who will suffer, force child victims of rape and incest to go through a legal process that will retraumatize them over and over and deprive women with potentially ectopic or other life-threatening pregnancies to suffer and potentially die. >> you know, it's a great point, and i want to point out there's a story this morning on npr actually about a case in texas that did involve a medical committee at a hospital that was trying to interpret health of the mother exceptions, so i think -- and yet, the outcome was shockingly similar. this woman had to wait until she was almost in shock, toxic shock

before she was authorized to have the procedure to remove essentially a dead fetus from her body. so i just want to be really clear that bans even with exceptions are challenging. a ban is a ban. we are clearly opposed to all bans because of all the scenarios you just so -- you just so clearly outlined and that dr. bernard outlined in her piece. ultimately, we have to leave these decisions to the pregnant person, their physician, and their own family. we cannot exact specific, you know, exemptions and expect that medical committees can then make judgment in a toxic environment where doctors are in fear of prosecution and criminalization and patients don't feel trust to tell their providers the truth of their whole story. >> maya, there's a soul crushing emptiness to the zeal on the other side that would abandon child rape victims, child incest victims.

it would abandon a woman, you know, most likely with a pregnancy she very much wants but with an unviable or tragic case of birth defects or disease or illness or that would abandon a woman in an emergency room whose life is on the line until she's septic, which in most cases is fatal. what is the about-face that we can still do now that roe has been overturned? >> one of the many important things and we're doing it along with amazing leaders like mini and so many others is saying we will take the fight to every state. that starts with making sure people know their rights and actually receive the protection and support they need to do what is lawfully available to them. i mean, we are having conversations about whether or not we're going to see criminalization of people because they're looking to cross borders or get medication in the mail in order to try to manage

their own bodies and their own there are many legal questions that are coming up every single day, very complicated to mini's point, even how we see institutions, even employers trying to navigate the legal chaos that the supreme court created with this awful and unfounded decision to reverse a fundamental right ever reversed in the history of this country. fundamentally, it's about fighting. it's about saying we're not done here. we literally have the ability both in states that are protecting our fundamental rights to figure out how they deeper and more appropriately not only enshrined them but become places that others can come to to get the care they need, but also to make sure that the places like indiana where the fight is joined, where we're in the fight, where we're supporting people from those states to ensure that their voices are heard. and here's the other thing, you know, the reality is that we have to pay attention to whether

people are able to get health care, and we're having and seeing a debate in the reconciliation process in congress about whether medicaid is going to be expanded to folks who didn't get it in 12 states, many of which are passing these bans, and we've got women who can't get health care sufficiently because they don't have insurance. so we also have to just make sure people can access the health care they need. and that's just the thing that we're going to fight for and we're going to keep fighting until we win. >> mini, how has naral's mission changed over the last few weeks since roe was overturned? >> you know, like maya said, we're taking the fight to the states. we're neck deep in a lot of these fights. you know, kansas has the first in the nation major public vote on reproductive rights, freedom of abortion access since roe, so we've got folks on the ground there right now. it's happening in the heartland of the country. we know the majority of folks in kansas support access and don't want to see an unconstitutional ban.

the kansas supreme court actually found that the state constitution protects the right to abortion just a few years ago, so this is an aggressive attempt by the extremist right to take away a right people have had for years, much like we're seeing in indiana right now, much like we're seeing in states across the country. so our focus is advocacy and electoral. right now we are on the ground trying to fight back where we can, and then it's going to be about making sure we draw a very clear contrast between the candidates and the parties in this moment. we have one party which is led by a president and vice president taking the fight to the states as you showed in that clip with vp harris, and another that's just descending into frankly extremist madness and cannot be coordinated in their response. >> and it's so far out of the mainstream of public opinion, which is what makes it not just dangerous and deadly but a political, inexplicable. i want to show you something else inexplicable because it is

indicative of where today's republican party stands. it's a leader in this country whose views about women in today's society go way beyond the pale. i'll show you next. i'll show you next my active psoriatic arthritis can slow me down. now, skyrizi helps me get going by treating my skin and joints. along with significantly clearer skin, skyrizi helps me move with less joint pain, stiffness, swelling, and fatigue. and skyrizi is just 4 doses a year after two starter doses.

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american in american society in 2022, i want to show you this. it's a new video unearthed. it shows republican ohio senate candidate, j.d. vance, claiming women having the ability to leave violent and abusive marriages has harmed society, changed society for the worse. watch. >> this is one of the great tricks that i think the sexual revolution pulled on the american populous. this idea that, okay, these marriages were fundamentally -- they were maybe even violent but certainly they were unhappy. so getting rid of them and making it easier for people to shift spouses like they change their underwear, that's going to make people happier in the long term. maybe it worked out for the moms and dads. i'm skeptical. it really didn't work out for the kids of the marriages. >> i don't amplify people like this without a purpose. here is the purpose. every republican should answer for one of their own, advocating

for women staying in violent relationships. before i get you in on this, i just want to read off j.d. vance's major donors. they should answer for that, too. that's his vision for women in america. exxonmobile, general dynamic, international franchise association, koch, marathon petroleum, phillips 66 and travelers insurance. i don't know if women work there, but they might be interested in knowing their company is putting money in the hands of a politician who, if elected, thinks women should stay in violent marriages. maya? >> i'm going to start by saying, thank you. this is why it matters that we have women sitting in the seat you are in. that is exactly the right question and call. let me just add, notice his trick. instead of talking about women's

rights and thes avancement of women's equality, he talked about the sexual revolution as if it was some dirty thing. rather than talking about the fact that this is about women protecting their lives. the idea that we're making children safe because they don't learn that they can escape violence, they don't learn and don't get taught there's no such thing as deserving it, and they don't learn or get taught how to keep themselves by leaving, that is despicable. it certainly is not grounded in any values. i will say this. what he has done is demonstrated exactly why we have to also fight for the right to make choices about our reproductive health and future. it should not be in anyone else's hands, because it's exactly that attitude that has created the very difficult situation that far too many women find themselves in when they're trying to make the hard decision about whether they can afford to hold on to that

pregnancy, to have that child or, frankly, are in a health situation or dangerous situation where it will be better for them and for their lives and their futures. the only question anybody should ask is, do women count or not? because i say, we do. nobody gets to tell us that we don't. >> j.d. vance doesn't think they do. just to show our work, we have reached out to the nrsc, which gives money to j.d. vance's candidacy. the rnc, which i think is run by a woman. we haven't heard from them. we will keep calling every day until we have a response as to whether or not they agree with j.d. vance's position that violent marriages are ones women should stay in. >> thanks for doing that. i'm skeptical you will hear anything. the sad truth is, j.d. vance is an extremist. but he reflects his party. we have to be clear about this.

we just had -- there was no republican who voted to protect women's health reproductive protections. ten republicans voted for contraceptive access. ten. this is an issue that's settled. 94% of americans support access to birth control. i think it's higher. that's what public polling shows. we have a party that has, as you said earlier, has just dug itself so deep in the extremism of anti-women deep misogyny that it's shocking -- i'm tired of being shocked. it's disturbing. i started as an advocate in domestic violence. while what he said out loud is shocking, it does represent the thought process of many of his extremist party and the most treatment ideologies in the country that are trying to take control of the country. i do want to pivot for a minute and say voters have a choice.

ohioans need a champion like tim ryan who has a record for reproductive freedom, voted to pass the women's reproductive access. there's a choice. there's an opportunity. this is another great example of clear contrast between candidates. >> candidates and parties. it is as big as a todd aiken moment. he impugns the entire republican party. we will stay on it. thank you so much for being with us today. switching gears. mike pence's former chief of staff in the news for a number of things today, not just testifying before a grand jury. we will show you what he had to say about spending time in prison. he is talking about another member of the republican party. that's next. ing about another ing about another member of the republican partyt. elections will be decided by politicians, with no regard for your vote. if maga republicans get back in power,

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i don't know if mike pennsylvania will run for president in 2024.

i don't think matt gaetz will have an impact on that. it's most likely he will be in prison for child trafficking by then. i'm not too worried about matt gaetz. >> wow. solid burn there. it's 5:00 in the east. fresh off his testimony before the federal grand jury last week, that was former chief of staff to mike pence mark short making more news with a searing takedown, i guess we will call it, of trump ally and pardon seeker florida congressman matt gaetz. to give you more context, short there is responding to comments gaetz made at a conference held by turning point usa. it's a youth group for right wing activists. gaetz said pence would never be president because he's, quote, a nice guy but not a leader. short who was pence's chief of staff from march 2019 until the insurrection and beyond, was not afraid of going there, bringing

up an ongoing and very much active fbi investigation into gaetz over alleged child sex trafficking. and payouts to multiple women for sex. allegations gaetz denies but that investigation, again, very much active and ongoing. as shocking and juicy as the commends are coming from mark short, they are emblematic of the current state of the gop. dirty and fractured. fractured over how fully to embrace the former president and those who go along with him, the twice impeached disgraced ex-president who refuses to admit he lost the 2020 election, who lost republicans the white house, who lost republicans the majority in the u.s. senate, who incited a deadly insurrection in a desperate attempt to cling to power. fracture was visible in washington, d.c. you should know, donald trump returned to washington, d.c. for the first time since leaving it in a swirl of impeachment and

25th amendment and disgrace. there's no other way to put it. this afternoon, he delivered the closing speech at this youth summit, the american first agenda summit. it's where people like kevin mccarthy, lindsey graham and ted cruz gathered and spoke. who wasn't there was just as notable. they write this, nearly the entire senate republican leadership, mitch mcconnell, nor john thume were on the agenda. the divide is stark. mcconnell wants nothing to do with trump, going out of his way never to utter the word trump in possible. trump has attacked mcconnell relentlessly. trump urged other republican senators to channel him for leader. that went exactly nowhere. mcconnell now faces a senate map where trump-backed candidates may cost the party dearly in november. karma is a you know what.

not in attendance, the man who we learned donald trump was most upset on january 6, the aforementioned former vice president mike pence. he gave a speech at a different event in a different location. listen to pence trying to straddle stay on the good side of trump's base but distancing himself from trump at the same time. watch. >> i don't know that our movement is that divided. i don't know that the president and i differ on issues. but we may differ on focus. i truly do believe that elections are about the future. and it is absolutely essential at a time when so many americans are hurting, so many families are struggling, that we don't give way to the temptation to look back. >> focus? is that what we're going to call

hanging you? that's where we start the hour with some of our reporters and friends. rick stengle is here, matt dowd, the founder of country over party, and an msnbc contributor. tim miller is here. i start with you, tim. there's something satisfying about seeing mark short just go right there to the alleged child sex trafficking thing and to go further than any of us would and to suggest that matt gaetz will be in prison by the time the republican primaries come along. it does reveal this now spilling over civil war, not in terms of who they will vote for, but in terms of how they feel about one another, between the pence and trump camps. >> yeah. i might have more respect for former vice president pence if he treated trump the may mark

short was treating matt gaetz in that clip. right? here is the problem with that supposed civil war that's happening between pence and trump. it's pretty one sided. obviously, trump sent a mob to kill mike pence. that's what's happening on one side of the war. on the other side of the war, mike pence is saying, you know, donald trump was really great. we just disagree with his judgement for a few hours that one day on january 6. we agree on everything except our focus is different. that's not how you win a war. when there's one team on the battlefield. we have this in arizona, the same thing this past weekend. pence was campaigning for one candidate. trump was campaigning for kari lake, who is this insurrectionist kind of fake, phony pretending to be a maga crazy. at the trump rally, they went hard after rusty bowers and said he was a traitor.

they said that biden was an illegitimate president. they attacked lake for the fact she used to support obama. they didn't mention the fact that she supported the insurrection that came to the capitol to attack and hang mike pence. this is the problem. there might be a civil war. they might not like each other very much. unfortunately, i'm feeling deja vu from 2016 where trump is the aggressor and he has the rabid base on his side and the people trying to go at him are pulling their punches. >> i don't disagree with tim's analysis, matt. i guess the part that doesn't add up for me is this faith that these are the right politics, that they can't change anything. i guess i'm old enough to remember that when you worked on a campaign, you believed it was your job to change public opinion, to persuade voters, to make a case and trust them to think for themselves. that's been abandoned on the

right. they don't trust their voters. i've been joined by a fly. i'm sorry. they figure that the republican base is immovable. it's totally locked in. nothing is dynamic. you won't break that cycle until you try. i wonder what you make of this idea that you can call it a change in focus. trump wanted the insurrectionists to win. the insurrectionists wanted to, quote, hang mike pence. >> i agree with you on this. i actually think that most of the leaders of the republican party, including donald trump and mccarthy and many others, have no respect for their voters. they treat them as rubes. they lie to them. they talk about them in the back rooms knowing full well what the truth is. but they think, i'm going to feed our voters a bunch of stuff that we don't even care about but we're going to do it because that's how they respond. they have zero respect. that's what i'm amazed it has not come through clearer.

that's the argument i would be making if i were a republican in that in moving it is these folks have no respect for you. they don't care about you. they think you are a bunch of idiots. that's why they do and treat you the way they treat you. that's what i think the fundamental reality is. the problem for somebody like mike pence is that mike pence showed the little bit of courage he had in one moment to actually do his job. that's the courage he had. he actually did the constitutional job he was elected to do. that's the courage he showed. but he has gone no further to expand that courage and take on donald trump and take on the pillars of the party. which i think leaves mike pence with the slimmest of group of voters in the republican party. which is the group of voters that wanted him to be courageous for a couple hours but don't do anything against donald trump the rest of the way. that's the smallest group of voters in the republican party.

the problem today for other rational republicans like liz cheney, who took it further and takes it on, is that the republican party voters are not really divided. there's not a civil war going on among the voters. there's a civil war and a fracturing going on among the leadership of mitch mcconnell and donald trump. that's not reflected in the voters in how republicans campaign for office, for district office in their primaries. the republican voters are by and large fairly unified in this moment because they have been lied to. because they have been fed conspiracy theories. they are very unified. mike pence is not part of where they are unified in this moment. that's the fundamental problem. until the republicans in leadership like mitch mcconnell, like others, start telling the truth to their voters, which starts with, these other guys could care less about what's going on in your life, could

care less about your integrity, could care less about what's happening to you, that's why they keep lying to you, until that happens and they take it that far, and really make it a campaign about disrespect of these people, it's not going to move this group of voters, which is the majority of the party right now. >> it is but it is shrinking. rick, the opportunity for democrats seems to be the republicans and their extremist views on same-sex marriage, contraception, to say nothing of the extremist views on abortion and j.d.'s embrace of violent marriages, there's opportunity to hang this on a party that treats their voters like they are too stupid to figure out the truth and so extreme it's not salvageable. >> yes. i'm the token democrat on the panel. is that right? >> i don't know anymore.

>> the erstwhile democrat. i've been coming on your show a long time. i never talk about republicans because i never felt i had standing. even though we all know each other and are friends and when i went to washington in the 1980s, the thing that amazed me was, all these democrats and republicans actually like each other and are friends. i covered george bush's 1988 campaign. i covered bob dole's 1996 campaign. you learn a lot about a party when you cover a presidential campaign and you see people in states all across the country. the civil war is a kind of inflammatory term. there is an existential crisis within the republican party. you put it well. is it a party that is about ideas or policy, or is it a party that's about loyalty to one man. your other point about once upon a time, we tried to talk up to

votes. we didn't try to talk down to voters. i love that mark short's line about congressman gaetz because it was a hard tackle. it was smart. donald trump uses the most idiotic, childhood insults. that has become the standard in the republican party. i feel for mike pence. and i think i agree with my colleagues that he shouldn't be so timid. but he did say one thing that i think was smart is that donald trump -- he is essentially saying donald trump represents the past. he is a person who is animated by toxic nostalgia for a past that never really existed, a past he republicanizes because his voters have a green answer because they feel like they have been left out by the future. the republican party has to become about the future if it's going to forsake donald trump,

which i think is needs to do, and whether that's through hard tackles, i don't know. that's the real divide in the republican party. >> yeah. tim, you have a great piece out about how the plan for how long this goes on is until he dies. that's right. there's no plan to do anything akin to tackling him. he will continue on like this until someone does. i guess my question for you is, i know things in politics have been turned completely upside down. four pinocchios used to devastate any candidate. the fact check, communications folks on campaigns, we lived in fear of the fact checkers. we knew who they were. we would scrub speeches to make sure we wouldn't get indicted by the fact checkers. trump put them out of business. republicans wouldn't recognize the truth if it was tattooed to them in their sleep. that is because of fox news and

everything that is worse than fox news. everything that's less accountable than what fox news puts on the air. that's scary when you say that to democrats who don't know what that means. i wonder what you make of the longtime belief that campaigns are about the future. do you think that's broken, too? >> certainly i think in the sense that mike pence means that it is in this very insider beltway sense about the messaging. i think donald trump disrupted the republican party obviously as rick was talking about, this fake nostalgia. a new way for the party to be. we didn't like this. to be more autocrats. is mike pence offering anything different from trump? no. what he is saying is, i will be

the same thing as donald trump all the way up until his actions in the late morning of january 6. everything else, i thought was great about donald trump. that doesn't work. i just imagine, maybe this wouldn't work either, but i think it would have a bigger audience. why not say -- i don't agree with this. but imagine you are mike peps. i thought we did a great job in the administration. we got this done and this done. then donald trump is such a buffoon, such a loser, such a clown that he fumbled it at the goal line. then he is such a toddler that he sends you guys -- he tricked people into storming the capitol to attack me. maybe don't use that exact language. isn't that a better framing for somebody that wants to change the party to say that donald trump lost, that donald trump lost by a lot actually, that he is a cry baby and he is a toddler and we want to do things

in the future for you that are different than that? i think that would be a much more compelling pitch than this just very vanilla kind of critique that mike pence is offering that i don't think anybody wants to hear. >> mike pence, were going to call donald trump a buffoon and a toddler, i would buy tickets to that. someone who saw some of the event goes down today is yamiche alcindor. you join a discussion of a fracture between at least the short pence side and the gaetz pence side. tell me what strikes you. >> what strikes me is we can't call what's going on in the gop a war. it's more like a skirmish, because you have former president trump leaning in on

lies. continuing to get a lot of support for conspiracy theories, frankly. i was just in the room where he was delivering the speech. the biggest applause lines is when he claimed the election was corruption and he wanted to continue to possibly try to run for office. he said that the january 6 committee, the only reason they're doing the work of finding out what happened during the capitol attack, which is the worst attack on the u.s. capitol in our nation's history from my understanding, was that because they wanted to damage him. it was all about him all about grievance politics. i was struck by the fact that in this crowd -- this is a crowd of people that is mixed. some are very much conspiracy theorists. a lot of people want to go back to conservative values, conservative policies. talking to people in the room, a lot are the sort of people that will go to a trump rally and wait in line a long time. they will go back to reagan

politics and lincoln politics. here was the crowd going wild for lies. the crowd smiling and giving him standing ovations. they weren't doing that when he was talking about policies, talking about crime or traded on inflation. they were not as animated as when he was lying about the 2020 election. to me, have i to call this a skirmish. across town you have former vice president mike pence speaking to a crowd that is smaller and smaller and a crowd he hopes give him a narrow lane to maybe run for president or to just wrangle back the republican party. it's very clear the energy and the enthusiasm is on the side of trump and in particular on the side of lying about the election. >> it's amazing. everyone stick around. we will continue with this after a quick break. don't go anywhere. before there was the big lie, there were so many other lies. tens of thousands of people. "the washington post" used to keep track. trump lied about things big and small.

jonathan lemire will be our guest. he will tell us about his fantastic new book all about the twice-impeached ex-president's non-existent relationship with the truth. the damage it continues to do today to our country. later, the story of a republican congressman who attended his son's same-sex marriage days after voting against his right to have one. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. e" continues e" continues after so they shoot it. hmm... back to the miro board. dave says “feed it?” and dave feeds it. don't go anywhere.ble team saves the day by working together. on miro.

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today in a news release for mike pence's upcoming book

called "so help me go," it comes out in november, there's an interesting part we want to share. the most robust defense of the trump record of anyone who served in the administration, so help me god, con cles president trump's severing of their relationship, when pence kept his oath to the constitution. we're back with our panel. matt, i'm coming to you. i have to read a tweet from our viewers. mike pence sent his fly to bug nicole. i think that's right. talk about this sort of political -- i think it's a death wish -- to not be stronger, not present yourself to any voters, but including the trump base, as strong enough to stand up against someone who would have law enforcement officials mutilated by your own supporters with flagpoles. what is in the strategy that seeks to sort of protect trump's feelings when he is such a clear

and present danger in the view of conservative judge mike ludig, to the country? >> i'm going to go back to and re-emphasize something i said earlier. mike pence -- anybody that has known him and watched him -- i have. i met him and talked to him over 20 years. he is not a person you would put on the top ten banner of courage. because he exercised courage for 12 1/2 minutes on one day doing his constitutional duty doesn't make him different than what he is. i think mike pence today is -- same thing i think that happened to jeb bush and other republicans in 2016, is they have no idea what the republican party fundamentally is. it's not a conservative party anymore. it's not a group of conservatives who believe in full conservatism. that's gone. donald trump wasn't a conservative. mike pence i think trying to act the part of an old conservative

to me is not going to work, because i am not -- i'm old enough to remember that what it meant to be a conservative was, you wanted to preserve the institutions of the country. you wanted to protect the constitution of the united states of america. you wanted to have a virtuous, as they talked about, a virtuous leadership, which believed in integrity and honesty and all of the old virtues that have existed for thousands of years in this. all of that is gone. it's no longer a republican party of conservatives. they continue to describe themselves that way. i think that's the problem for mike pence. i'm going to make another argument. donald trump, whenever he goes and leaves this world or whenever isolates himself or finally decides that he is going to buy an island somewhere, whatever it happens to be, at this point to me, my view doesn't matter. it doesn't matter because the republican party is so contaminated with that and no longer is a conservative party,

that whoever emerges in 2024 is going to be a version of donald trump, maybe without the stinks. maybe without the craziness. it's going to be the same kind of stuff, the same kind of grievance, the same kind of hate, the same kind of all those things, the same kind of pushing the envelope on culture, all of those things. that to me is the fundamental, i mean, problem in america today is that a major party taking out donald trump has become a party that no longer believes in the constitution, no longer believes in norms, no longer believes in institution. fundamentally, no longer believes in majority rule. it's a party that no longer believes in majority rule. if they accepted majority rule, they know they would be a minor party for the next two decades. >> yeah. this gets to the conversation happening largely off tv, but let's have it here, that if the

january 6 committee, under chairman bennie thompson and vice chair liz cheney's leadership is successful in slaying the dragon that's the ex-president's legacy, one of the likely scenarios is that desantis sort of ascends. i think matthew is making the argument there are many of the sametendenies that he is putting into practice. he took the big lie after bragging what a secure a model florida was in terms of the election it had run in 2020. he now has some of the most aggressive local and regional law enforcement strategies for policing elections. he created a state police force to do that. what's behind trump is in some ways scarier. >> yes. to matt's point and tim's, mike pence is sort of trump-light or

trump that obeys the law and doesn't curse and doesn't grab women. the way to dislodge -- >> a bumper sticker in there. >> yeah. exactly. i think it's too long for a bumper sticker. i will campaign on it though. the only way to dislodge is somebody trump-like who takes him down as someone who was willing to overturn our democracy to win an election. as matt said, that to me -- that's the foundational thing. you can't have a party system in a democracy where one party is willing to overturn the democracy to win an election. we talked about this on the show before. the constitution, the framers wanted to protect minority rights. but they didn't want minority rule. it's a majority rule country. that's what democracy means. nevertheless -- you mentioned the judge -- that trump is an

actual special danger to the republic beyond even the people who are trump-light or someone like desantis, that he represents a special threat to everything that i think decent people believe in. i would frankly take almost anything rather than trump. and i hope that is what happens. >> yamiche, talk about the crowd. were there any conversations about anyone other than trump, positive or negative? >> there was a lot of conversation about policy and about conservative values. i talked to one person about criminal justice and wanting to get back to this balance idea of fighting crime while also not racially profiling people. that was an african american republican that i spent time talking to. there was talk about policy. when it comes to 2024, trump is the name that reigns in the room, both with these people who are sort of traditional, at least formally traditional

republicans who got on the trump bandwagon as well as when you think outside of the rooms where it's rallies and people out on the campaign trail. i talked to both people who are out in the country who are voters as well as people who are sort of establishment republicans and who are part of the leadership of the party. they all say that trump is still going to be the person who is most popular, most likely to win the gop nomination. i also want to say that in some ways, part of what the sort of appeal of trump to many people is sort of just how unabashed he is about lying about the election. i was in the room just a few minutes ago where former president trump said that the country was losing its ability and its sort of grip on law and order. pause for a minute and think the people who are critics of donald trump who say he doesn't understand law and order and say january 6 was a christelization of his ability to understand the rule of law in the country. i want to point out that crowd and the people they are talking

about, when you think about who the republican party wants to be its next nominee, you have to think about the culture war issues. which makes whether it's vice president pence or trump sort of -- a sort of question that doesn't need to be answered in terms of who has the most grip. everyone in that room cheered so loudly when former president trump was talking about culture issues, in particular when he was misgendering transgender women, he said men are trying to compete against women, he was referring to transgender women. in that room, that line which former president trump said was not in his speech, he was saying admitting he was ad libbing it, got so much attention, so many people sort of getting up and clapping. when you think about what 2024 is going to be about, it's of course going to be about whether or not former president trump runs but the culture issues and the issues of sort of how we treat lgbtq people and african americans and black people. that continues to be also at the center of the this political debate.

>> it's so low. we had the wrong frame in asking how low he would go. we haven't seen anything near the bottom from him yet. yamiche, thank you for being there and reporting ton. that's above and beyond. rick, matt, thank you for your contributions. tim sticks around. ahead for us, our good friend jonathan lemire has written a book. his new book is all about the origins of the disgraced ex-president's big lie. will be back with that conversation after a quick break. don't go anywhere. conversation after a quick break. break. don't go anywhere. [whistling]

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for the last six plus years our next guest has covered the twice impeached ex-president from the earliest days of his campaign expertly. his new book "the big lie, election chaos" the host of "way too early" jonathan lemire looks at the big lie and its formation was born on a sleepy monday in ohio in august of 2016. that is where the disgraced ex-president, then a candidate, first claimed his election with hillary clinton would be rigged. the seeds of the big lie have been planted. a celebrity candidate with little regard for the truth had publically doubted the intrinsic fairness of america's most sacred democratic institution. taking the first step on a

journey that would undermine the integrity of the presidency. fuel a violent insurrection at the u.s. capitol, imperil voting rights ahead of the 2022 and 2024 elections and forever change both political parties. jonathan joins us now. congratulations. the book is fantastic. you really do this thing that no one else has sought to do. you lengthen the time line. indeed, the big lie starts -- i think he does something about it. you write about this. he has -- the kansas guy come out and look for voter fraud in the 2016 popular vote. >> yeah. thank you. it's a pleasure to be here. the book indeed out today. does just that, it's a different trump book. it takes its analysis and it does trace the origin of his big lie, which we know -- we're grappling with it in the present

day. the book takes it far beyond january 6 as you read. it talks about how it challenged the biden white house. provided cover for republican state legislatures to try to restrict access to the ballot in nearly two dozen states and certainly we see the former president still out today, still claiming it. it's defining our elections this year and certainly in 2024. it began way back in 2016. columbus, ohio, a sleepy monday. for first time, then candidate trump said that he feared that november's general election would be conducted unfairly. some will recall that previously at the iowa caucus, he claimed that ted cruz and the rnc were conspireing against him. that was sour grapes. this was the first time he took square aim at our most sacred democratic institution, that it was, in fact, the election he claims would not be fair. he also said he wouldn't necessarily -- a few weeks later, he wouldn't honor the results. he did win that election in

2016. as you mentioned, he then soon thereafter, put together a commission to investigate what he claimed was widespread voter fraud. he was looking as to why he lost the popular vote to hillary clinton. >> you also write about -- you were a white house correspondent covering the you administration. i want to read this. this president and what he inherited. president biden tried to steer his nation out of a pandemic. he pushed through two huge pieces of legislation to better american lives. falling short on a third. his administration was trying to restore faith in american democracy. he couldn't reach half the country. not because they couldn't hear him, because they chose not to listen. they didn't think he was legitimate. they believed others. the threat remained, the big lie had become policy. trump's power had not abated. do you think this white house -- you have a president whose views on just about every major policy tracks with the mainstream of

the american public, which is huge contrast to the republicans who are so far out of the mainstream. do you come to the end of this and think that this white house should have been more aggressive in combating the lies and liars? >> a lot of democrats believe so, yes, that president biden tried to take the high road. he barely mentions donald trump's name, which is why it was striking he did yesterday. he certainly delivered a forceful speech about the insurrection on one-year anniversary of january 6. many democrats and progressives feel like the white house was slow to react. obviously, the first priority after taking office was the pandemic. there were groups early on who saw what was happening in states and said, more needs to be done to protect the franchise, protect the rights and access to the ballot. by the time, early 2022, the white house pushed the federal legislation, many felt it was too late. the legislation was doomed by senator joe manchin and sinema because they didn't want to

change the filibuster. this book has behind the scenes reporting not just from the trump white house which led to january 6, but a lot from the biden white house and the struggle how they are coming to terms with trump and also half the country that doesn't believe that biden was legitimately elected. that's one of the most important and terrifying legacies of the big lie is how trump undermined the legitimacy of the office of the president. >> absolutely. we have known and loved you for many years. i think a lot of people saw your helsinki moment. you pressed president trump with a question about who he believed. with that in mind, i want to read some of your reporting about what russia is doing as it pertains to their war in ukraine. you write this. the russian ambassador to the u.n. took the microphone to denounce a new u.n. resolution that condemned russia's invasion and called for an immediate and complete withdrawal of all

military forces from ukraine. moscow forcefully rejected the resolution, calling claims that russian troops were targeting civilians fake. saying other countries were hypocritical for supporting it. with the eyes of the world on him, he singled out washington for scorn, declaring the u.s. could not be taken seriously on the matter of democracy because it was where the legitimately president was overthrown. trump was accused of using moscow's talking points. putin's people are using trump's. the big lie was being used to defend a war. we don't pay enough attention to this. the parroting the trump's talking points on the world stage is designed not just to weaken american's democracy but all the world's democracies. >> a chilling moment in those early days of the war. you are right, it's not limited to moscow. we have authoritarian regimes across the country parroting a

lot of what donald trump said, suggesting elections would not be conducting fairly. brazil, the former president's close ally saying that he doesn't believe the elections there will be conducted fairly. he is expected to lose. it's indeed a dangerous moment. you mentioned helsinki. there's another moment in the book that i would like to flag, fiona hill, who we got to know during the president's first impeachment trial, one of the russian experts on the security council. she was there when i asked donald trump who he believes in russia interfered with the election. his answer was disastrous. he sided with russia. she said she thought about fakin a heart attack to get trump to stop talking. >> it's amamazing. it's a seismic moment in a

catastrophic presidency, long-time trump advisor told me after that, he said, maybe the russians do have something. it was a longtime public defender. your book is important. it's excellent. very well written. something everyone should read. it's out and available now. jonathan lemire, thank you. when we come back, the hypocrisy of a republican member of congress who attended his gay son's wedding. that's the good part of the story. just days after voting against protecting his right to have one. protecting same-sex marriage. that's the bad part. we will tell you about it next. . . we will tell you about it next

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another really tragic instance of rules for the not for me within the gop. three days after he voted with his republican colleagues against a bill that would codify federal protections for same-sex marriages in america, glen thompson attended his son's wedding to another man. very best wishes to the newlyweds. it's good his dad was there. love and marriage are a wonderful thing, especially these days. still, the hypocrisy staring us in the face. we're back with tim miller. tim, what do we do with this

here? that 157 republicans, i think that's the number, voted against protecting same-sex marriages in the united states, which are widely accepted. i think close to 80% of americans. >> yeah. look, i think there's a personal and cultural element to the story and also political. the first part, i want to echo what you said. it's sad. i feel for his kid. i look at my marriage as the west day of my life, so having political stuff hanging over it is so awful. i think about what i wrote in my book. i wanted to reflect. i'm not clean here. almost nobody in modern-day politics is clean. i worked for candidates that were against gay marriage. and i really wanted to reflect, like, how did i do that? how did i justify it? this is embarrassing to stay on tv, but the reality is that i put winning in politics above,

like, the right thing. and for me, that's the most important thing in my life. right? so i can kind of understand how representative thompson did this. and i can tell you having been -- not in his exact chair, but in a similar situation, the kind of regret and shame he's going to have about this down the line. because his spokesman put out a statement, and the statement on why he voted against it said, oh, the democrats are playing game, and we don't really need to do this. et cetera. it's all nonsense. i can tell you what happened in this meeting. they thought, we need to win this news cycle. we need to not let the democrats corner us on this big campaign issue. i'm going to vote against this as part of the big game i'm trying to mastermind in my head. but there isn't a game. this has real impacts. getting that passed in the senate, which i think they need to do -- right now they have only five republican votes -- would make sure his kid in the future wouldn't have his marriage annulled by a

reactionary government that comes down the line. this is stuff that matters and yet a guy like representative thompson convinced himself he could potentially put his kids' marriage at risk for winning some news cycle. this is a broken culture in washington. it's widespread. it's not just this one guy. and i hope and democrats take this opportunity, because they're clean on this, on the right side of this, and this is a winning issue, and really do run and campaign on it. this is an issue where right now policy and the politics match. there is another example, just one example, ted bud, representative of north carolina also voted against them he's a republican senate nominee in north carolina. i can tell you, this is not a winning issue in north carolina, trying to say that the state can annul gay marriages. this is not a popular issue. he's doing it because he's playing political games, playing to the base, and hopefully this can be one of a few issues where republicans have gotten

themselves contraception and others away from where the center of the country is. >> it's not even the center. you've got a plurality of americans and majority of republicans on contraception. it's just a misread of the electorate. tim miller, you do write about it beautifully in your book as well. that's why we asked you to be here. thank you for spending time. quick break for us we will be right back. r spending time. quick break for us we will be right back i brought in ensure max protein with 30 grams of protein. those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks. uhh... here, i'll take that! yay!!! ensure max protein,

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thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. we are grateful "the beat" with ari melber starts right now. hi, ari. >> hi, nicole, thank you. top republicans are gathering in washington today eat conservative conference where several were pushing the kind of authoritarian arguments the overturning american elections and lie about voting, not only wading into constitutional territory, but blatantly contradicting their