>> hi there, everyone. it is 4:00 in new york. i'm ayman mohyeldin in for nicole wallace. the january 6th committee is gaining team steam. the floodgates have opened and new reporting suggests that the panel has either heard from or is on the verge of hearing from some very important witnesses. a major focus of the committee in recent days, conversations among top cabinet officials about invoking the 25th amendment to actually remove donald trump from office in the days after the january 6th insurrection. treasury secretary steve mnuchin has sat down for an interview

with the committee and that is according to reporting by abc and cnn. then you have mike pompeo confirm today that he is in talks with the committee. abc news reporting this about the state of the negotiations with the panel saying in part, quote, the house select committee investigating the january 6th attack on the u.s. capitol is in active discussions with former secretary of state mike pompeo for his testimony behind closed doors. sources familiar with the matter telling abc news. pompeo is tentatively scheduled to speak with the committee come the coming days, sources said. pompeo was among the few trumpa allies and officials that at least publicly stuck with the ex-president in the immediate aftermath of the attack. he said, quote, while we all think the violence that took place in the capitol was tragic, and i've watched away people

walk away from the president and they are not listening to the american people, not remotely. pompeo played a critical role in the trump administration in the days after january 6th flagging to mark meadows that cabinet officials were in talks about the 25th amendment. in fact, here is how former white house aide cassidy hutchinson described a call between pompeo and her boss, chief of staff mark meadows. >> from what i understand it was more of a -- this is what i'm hearing. i want you to be aware of it, but i also think it's worth putting it on your radar because you're the chief of staff and you're technically the boss of all of the cabinet secretaries and as the conversations progressed you should be ready to take action. i'm concerned about you and your positioning with this. reach out to me if you have any questions or if i can be helpful to you at all. ? nbc news is reporting that today the committee is hearing from another top trump aide, former

acting white house chief of staff mick mulvaney. in fact, you can see him here arriving for his deposition earlier this afternoon. mulvaney, who was the u.s. special envoy to northern ireland on january the 6th resigned the day after the insurrection. here's what he told our colleagues at cnbc at the time. >> i called mike pompeo last night and left him a note and told him i would be resigning. i can't do it. i can't stay. it's a nothing thing. it doesn't affect the outcome. it doesn't affect the transition, but it's what i've got, right? and it's a position i enjoy doing, but you can't do it and i wouldn't be surprised to see more of my friends resign in the next 24 to 48 hours if they did. if those who choose to stay and i have talked to a couple of them because they are concerned that the president might put someone in to replace them that could make things even worse. >> claudia rosales and msnbc

legal analyst joyce vance and former u.s. attorney and law professor at the university of alabama and katty kay for bbc studios and also an msnbc contributor. claudia, i'd like to start with you. a lot of trump administration folks suddenly seem to be talking to the committee or at least agreed to appear in talks before the committee, what is your sense why all of this is happening now? >> well, we talked to chairman bennie thompson today who returned to capitol hill. he told reporters he is pleased with this progress in terms of this widening net, ex-trump cabinet officials, trump officials who are coming in to talk to the committee. as you mentioned, negotiations are ongoing with pompeo so that's somebody else they hope to see in the near future in addition to that interview today for mick mulvaney it looked like it was going to stretch for several hours and he said this is all part of the committee's

plan. they're still in business even though they wrapped up their summer hearings to continue to investigate what happened but for the january 6th attack what built up to that day as far as the trump administration was involved and that report they want to issue later this year giving a comprehensive picture of what those forces were and what role then-president trump played in it. >> joyce, help us understand and there's been some reporting to focus that the conversation has to do with the 25th amendment and help us understand from your legal perspective why would the committee be interested in conversations within the trump cabinet or the trump administration around the 25th amendment which is the amendment used to remove a sitting president from office by the cabinet. >> so the committee, of course, is trying its jury to the public opinion and the logical next step after having put on full

display, trump's failure to act for the 187 minutes while the capitol was being overrun would be to follow that up with the sense of how trump's own people, how his own cabinet viewed his inaction. the fact that they considered invoking the 25th amendment would be a remarkable revelation because so many of them stood by him, you know, unlike mick mulvaney, not many people resigned in that level in the wake of january 6th. we saw a few light secretary elaine chao to depart so hearing testimony about their reactions and their conversations could be very powerful as one of the final steps of putting the nail in the coffin, so to speak of the former president's unfitness to serve in the future if you're the congressional committee trying your case to the jury of public opinion. >> to the jury of public opinion which is extremely important, would it also be of interest to the department of justice if

they wanted to learn anything more about what the committee uncovers around these conversations involving the 25th amendment? >> you know at this point everything is of interest to the justice department. they are clearly investigating conduct. they're not targeting individuals, but rather they're trying to get a handle on what crimes could have possibly been committed in connection with january 6th and so for instance, when we talked about getting testimony from former secretary pompeo, there's been reporting that he was among the people who were very concerned about the fact that trump was making a series of appointments at the defense department after he had lost the election, replacing, for instance the acting secretary and other people with trump loyalists. so if i'm sitting at dod, i'm very interested in trying to figure out what sort of plans the former president had for the defense department and whether he intended to have guard troops

or other troops involved in some capacity to support him on january 6th. these are sort of known unknowns at this point. they're possibilities and it's speculative. doj's job is to get to the heart of it and it's important for them, i suspect as well as the committee to get testimony from these witnesses. >> katy, let's talk about mick mulvaney and the fact he testified and he wasn't in the inner circle of the trump administration. he was adsome point when he was acting chief of staff and understood the orbit of the trump world and what does he bring to the committee with whatever he may have known at the time of january 6th and as we played in that clip, his resignation. >> he had sent his envoy to ireland and of course, he stepped down after the events of january 6th as we played there, but one of the things that he did do which might be of interest in the committee is tweet about cassidy hutchinson and in some extent he served as

a character witness for her. he came out to say if anyone who knows her would know she is not lying. in some sense he may be able to -- to corroborate some of what she heard or at least corroborate her as a reliable witness and he would be able to back up, as well, what members of the cabinet and members of the inner circle and the white house had been thinking about the president, mostly prior to his time when he left as acting chief of staff and went on to serve as the special secretary for ireland, but he would still have a knowledge of what other members of the cabinet were saying. >> claudia, let me ask you about mike pompeo for a moment and he's become central and here's a passage from i alone can fix it with carol leonnig and phil rucker. he said in fall of 2020, pompeo was concerned about the crackpot

advisors trump was listening to and shortly before the election, pompeo had a visit and they had a heart to heart. pompeo said the crazies are taking over according to people familiar with the conversation. pompeo and milley worry worried he would-them hold on to pow per he lost the election and milley was reluctant about stopping that. this military won't be used, he assured pompeo. would the committee want to know about these kinds of conversations and why would that be important? >> this goes back to an early theme from the january 6th committee hearings when we heard bill stepien, a former trump campaign manager refer to these two teams in the white house, team normal and team crazy. so here, pompeo is clearly, through this retelling of the story, striking out his place in

that setting in terms of saying he was part of team normal and he was not with team crazy. so perhaps this is more of that narrative that the committee wants to get down to is who was on what side and when we're looking at team crazy, how much pull they had, team normal, how maybe not as much pull they had when it came to then president trump. so this is clearly of interest to the committee and they want to continue to tell this story of the divide that occurred within trump's white house building up to january 6th and the day of. >> katty, this is a two-parter for you. does it surprise you that mike pompeo and along with mike pence is willing to talk to the committee and could pompeo end up being consequential to the committee as somebody like bill barr who said to the president, you know, the idea that the election was stolen was bs and he hadn't seen evidence and he was a definitive nail in the

coffin at least to some supporters like ivanka and jared that the election was stolen? >> yeah. mike pompeo is not bill barr. he was the secretary of state. he wasn't the attorney general. in some ways he has a different role and what he said to the president would have carried a different implication, but you're right in suggesting that he was very loyal to president trump. he really was a trump acolyte. trump elevated him from congress to run the cia and then to be secretary of state. he was always ferociously in public, loyal to president trump right up until the very end and so to have him, if he does decide to testify and it's interesting the language that he's using that he only wants to testify to get the honest story out in the service of the american people and it is not clear what the implication of that is. is he saying that he wants to

try and defend president trump's reputation over january the 6th or is he implying that he wants to make sure that the real story of what he was thinking around the 25th amendment got out. we don't know which of those two he seems to be suggesting, but he is somebody who was very loyal to president trump and it is both surprising that he would testify and intriguing about what it means that he wants the honest story to get out. >> joyce, i want to ask you about this piece of reporting from nbc news that was first reported by politico, that the committee and the justice department have an agreement on sharing information. that's pretty significant. put this in perspective for us, because the committee in terms of the scope of their work. they've gotten their hands on a lot of information as we saw through their public hearings and they have tens of thousands of documents and records. is this a big deal for the justice department that they now have this access and to what extent do they have to replicate this work for themselves and are they allowed to rely on that

work as it stands, those interviews as they stand and the transcripts of those interviews? >> so this is a really smart question that helps us understand what's going on at doj. as a prosecutor you really have to go back and re-do these interviews because prosecutors have a different focus than those on the committee have. your work is textall, you're looking at statutorily defined crimes and you have to explore the elements of those crimes and that means you ask very specific questions of witnesses and at the same time, having these is essential to the department's work because one of the things you have to do as a prosecutor is be aware of everything that your witnesses may have said particularly in a setting where they're under oath. so knowing if they've made any contrary statements or if there's something that's just confusing that for instance, the defense lawyer can use down the road to impeach one of your

witnesses, you also have to go through all of that and understand what's there. it's an enormous amount of work for lawyers at the justice department which i think helps us understand why doj had made that request to have more than 100 different -- 100 additional prosecutors assigned to doj and the budgetary request for the coming year. >> claudia, while all of this is happening to the doj, politico spoke to bennie thompson. tompson said it is ending an intense period of closed-door work to how the committee will handle the panel subpoenaed, but whoever refused to comply. he said the panel was mulling decisions in order to answer trump and former vice president mike pence. those are some very big and important questions that could have a lot of implications about

the world of the committee and it account open doors, as well. >> what do they have to say about where it lands? is there a consensus among the committee members about some of these pressing issues? >> not quite. i also talked to chairman tofrm son about that today, and he mentioned nothing is off the table on the gop members that were subpoenaed and this includes gop leader kevin mccarthy. that includes contempt referrals and committee members need to come to a consensus. they're not quite there yet. he said they're meeting every few days and so through those meetings, he kept emphasizing we're not closed for business. we have a lot of work to do and that is one in terms of the gop members, among many issues that they're going to be taking up in the coming weeks and trying to make these difficult decisions on what are the next steps if you have these republican members who have been subpoenaed

and they rr cooperating and we've seen cases where there are contempt referrals as we saw with steve bannon who was prosecuted and convicted for that, so that's going to be a really big question before the committee among many others that they need to consider in the coming weeks this month coming up in august. >> katty, final question to you, bringing in donald trump or mike pence would be an incredibly charged political moment for the country to see them before the committee? what is the calculation? do they need the testimony or do they need the information due to what they've publicly built and continue to build so far. >> they have hundreds of hours of testimonial ready. they've spoken to people who were in the white house at the time. they have documentary evidence in the form of text messages and emails. they would really have to feel that there was a piece of the puzzle they could not get without donald trump before

pulling him in and anyway, donald trump's track record on telling things as they actually are is perhaps not as stellar as it might be. so what would be achieved? the biggest question, of course, is going to be for the justice department. do they feel they have enough to charge donald trump? that would also be very inflammatory for the country, but it is probably the more important question at the moment whether the select committee brings him in. >> all right. >> claudia, joyce vance, thank you for starting us off. katty kay, stick around. we have a lot more to discuss. getting done in washington last night catching everyone by surprise. after more than a year of stalled talks, senator joe manchin and chuck schumer possibly pushing the president's economic agenda over the finish line. it is a big deal and it is also a big bill and we'll talk about that with carolyn maloney if the house will be onboard as well

and how would it change the calculations for the midterms. plus speaking of november. senate republicans are beginning to worry about some of the marquee races and herschel walker ducking debates and the trolling of mehmet oz to j.d. vance losing the support of his own party and democrats have a shot at the majority and the continued shift and more extreme than your average authoritarian leader. we'll tell you about all of those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues. "deadline: white house" continues. i mean, "riders" is cool, but "bikers"...is really cool. -seriously? -denied. can we go back to meeting at the rec center? the commute here is brutal. denied. how do we feel about getting a quote to see if we can save with america's number one motorcycle insurer? should flo stop asking the same question every time? -approved! -[ altered voice ] denied! [ normal voice ] whoa.

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like nothing gets done in washington. i know it never crossed any of your minds, but the work of the government can be slow and frustrating and sometimes even infuriating. then the hard work of hours and days and months from people who refuse to give up pays off. history is made. lives are changed. with this legislation we are facing up to some of our biggest problems and we're taking a giant step forward as a nation. >> that's president biden on the surprise and historic deal from senate democrats and a potential major breakthrough for major parts of his agenda. senator joe manchin and majority leader chuck schumer agreeing last night on a massive spending package after a year and a half of off and on negotiations. that caught much of washington by surprising including mitch mcconnell who agreed it wouldn't happen and he agreed to pass a second senate bill. the inflation reduction act of 2022 would lower health care

costs, implement a 15% minimum tax for wealthy companies, reduce the national deficit and invest nearly $370 billion in combatting climate change, congress' biggest commitment ever. joining me is carolyn maloney of new york, chair of the house oversight and reform committee. great to see you again. thanks for making time for us. >> good to see you. >> here's what joe manchin told nbc news earlier today. >> it got a little bit hot and heated, if you will, but that's the way negotiations go, and he says if you're not going to do that then we'll do the one thing and all hell broke loose thursday night and people thinking i'd walked away or i reversed my position and i've never reversed in my lifetime and i've never walked away. >> democrats have wanted to take this kind of action on climate change and tax cuts and health care for a very long time.

from your vantage point, what does this deal say about what democrats can achieve? >> well, i think this is a big message to america that democrats get things done. this is massively important for the average american. it will put money back into consumers' pockets, offsetting the impact of an inflation pressure and it will incentivize more competition in the energy markets by giving tax credits for clean energy and making it more affordable and it reduces the deficit by 300 billion and in addition to everything else you said $124 billion for irs enforcement and it would not increase any taxes on americans making less than 400,000 per year. and very important, a big goal of democrats has been lowering the cost of prescription drugs and this will include provisions that will allow medicare to negotiate the lower drug prices

for our seniors, and a big part of the bill that i'm proud of that came out of my committee is moving towards electric vehicles for the postal fleet, making it an example for the country. they were old. they have a big contract out to replace them. they were replacing with gas-guzzlers and 40% is electric and this includes 3 billion to move more of them and using the stations, the postal stations as charging stations, it could be a big kick for the country going into electric vehicles. so it's good news for everyone. >> yeah. that would in itself be absolutely remarkable to see that transformation. this is a big moment for the biden administration, certainly a big win, as well for the american people as you just outlined, but what's the strategy now for democrats? how should joe biden, the president and the democrats use this moment with this potential

gamechange in legislation to convince the american people that things are, as you said, actually getting done? >> well, they have to pass it and move it through washington and into the lives of the american people and show them that democrats have their back, have their interest and are working for a fair economy that works for everyone and for the 21st century, moving towards actually combatting climate change and actually doing something about it. it is a great package and there builds on the great work we're doing today on the competition bill that helps manufacturing in america and the chips bill, the american rescue plan, the energy plan. it combined the infrastructure plan and the first one that we passed in many years, we have a record to run on that helps people, helps their lives and helps the country. >> let me switch gears if i can

and ask you something very important, your oversight committee asking gun manufacturers to answer about their personal responsibility for recent tragedies. i want to speak to the victims' families speaking directly to these gun manufacturers. >> my son lost a huge part of his innocence. he's not the same person. he'sec broen. >> what are you going to do? >> it's okay. >> -- to make sure that your products don't get into the hands of a white supremacist mass shooter ever again? who would take your child's father away? >> these are powerful moments, i think if the american public saw them and certainly what we've been through as a country over the last couple of years, it was heartwarming and painful to watch at the same time, but what have you learned about these gun makers and what are your committee's goals? >> i was hoping these gun

manufacturers would take responsibility and be part of the solution to -- i was hoping they'd stop manufacturing these ar-15s that are weapons of war. they don't belong in our schools. they don't belong in our streets killing people, and i was hoping that they would apologize. i asked them to apologize. the room was filled with victims, survivors that have lost in mass shootings. we stand alone. they passed bills in the first mass shooting and they don't have another one. we just have one after another, and it has to stop. we wanted them, at least i wanted them to take responsibility and start cracking the impact on the sale of the guns on the lives of people and start tracking how many people they've killed. manufacturers are required in our country to track and work to make their products safer.

gun manufacturers don't. that is something i'd like to work on. if they don't do it voluntarily then government has to act and make them be a part of the solution. hopefully we'll be passing a ban on assault weapons and i was hoping it would pass this week and i'll come back tomorrow to pass the important bill. we need it. >> let's hope something changes and we can't go through another mass shooting and congresswoman carolyn maloney, thank you for spending time this afternoon and i appreciate it. >> a campaign known for creative advertising. john fetterman is back at it and his latest troll of mehmet oz and how that raises a big problem for republicans. that's coming up next. m for rep. that's coming up next. sure max , with 30 grams of protein, 1 gram of sugar enter powered by protein challenge for a chance to win big! a monster was attacking but the team remained calm.

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yo! dr. oz! stevie vz here. what are you doing to pennsylvania? everybody knows you live in new jersey and you're using everyone's address over there. you do not want to mess around with john fetterman. trust me! >> nobody is doing it quite like senate candidate john fetterman, that's the truth. you had musician steven van zandt there in the latest and relentless ad blitz targeting mehmet oz over his new jersey ties. for democrats there is a lot riding on that race and others very much like it while the

house seems poised to flip holding on to the senate in reach for democrats and consider these republican candidates there for a moment. herschel walker in georgia, bizarre, bizarre comments from everything from air pollution, revelations about several previously unknown children among other scandals and his inability to debate, rafael warnock, jd vance backlash over comments about divorce and people should stay in unhappy marriages even if they are violent. in arizona, blake masters, last month had to defend comments he made in which he blamed the gun violence in this country on, quote, black people, frankly. joining our conversation former maryland congress and washington post columnist donna edwards and katty kay is with us. very bizarre set of republican candidates in these three different states. katty, we're going to go through a few of these race by race, but

give me your big-picture takeaways. your chances in the senate and whether these gop candidates make the job easier for the democrats? >> well, it's clearly what democrats are hoping. these are tight races and they are races that democrats would really like to win. they have some very solid candidates in john fetterman and tim ryan and particularly candidates who are appealing to voters that don't always get appealed to by democrats. john fetterman has been running ads on fox news. tim ryan has been appealing to some republican working-class voters in the state of ohio. as you pointed out, some of these republican candidates have a pretty checkered background and some strike against them in terms of their record and some of the things they've said recently including jd vance. the question is will republican voters come home? in the end, come november, will

republican voters decide that they are going to rally around those candidates even if some of them are controversial and even if some of them are ideal candidates and are they going to feel motivated as we were talking about republicans falling in line? will they fall in line in november and that's the unknown question at the moment. >> controversial and questionable in terms of competence. donna, let's talk about herschel walker and his competence for a moment. he's taking on rafael warnock from georgia, i want to read you a piece from politico. warnock is widely seen as the wide gop opportunities along with nevada, arizona and new hampshire. to make good on those chances most republicans want it to be a clean referendum on joe biden rather than the quality of their candidates. still one republican operative involved in senate races said behind the scenes that earlier this summer there was almost existential concern about the walker campaign. this republican who spoke

candidly on condition of anonymity said there is still time for a course correction, but that if the election were today he would not win. are you reading, donna, a sense of panic at all from that reporting among republicans and how could democrats capitalize on somebody like herschel walker and the bizarre comments that he has been making over the last couple of months? >> well, i think that this is why you can even see right now that rafael warnock, senator warnock has an advantage both in terms of his ability to articulate a vision, but also, i think that for a candidate like herschel walker, he is a new candidate. he's unscripted and he's undisciplined and i think at the end of the day when you have that collection it's going to go against history and so in georgia, republicans may not be running at the top of their ticket against president biden

and against the admin trag because they have such a flawed candidate and this rings true across the board for any number of republican advantages that are real disadvantages in this election cycle with second tier, third tier and undisciplined candidates. >> let me ask you this, donna, in ohio you have jd vance against tim ryan. ryan's gop-friendly message has caught attention to the point where vance can't make fund-raising calls without hearing about it. i actually spoke to a donor yesterday who told me that he thought tim ryan was running in the republican primary, vance said in a telephone interview. is that strategy unique to ohio in the states where weaker republican competition, should 'em democrats in your expertise try to convince center and center-right voters to vote democrat? >> tim ryan is almost a made for

ohio candidate. he's a working class guy and speaks in a language that voters up and down the state understand. he's raised three times the amount of money as jd vance has raised and he stays on message and he has the ability to inspire people, and so i think, i'm not surprised at all that tim ryan is running the kind of race that he's running and then you've got a candidate like jd vance who again, unpredictable, undisciplined and that is beginning to show in terms of fund raising and it's showing in terms of the kind of campaign that's being run. >> katty, in pennsylvania now, jon fetterman was outspending dr. oz by $3 million, but are ad dollars really the difference here or is the main difference simply the two candidates themselves? >> yeah. now vastly different candidates. i was in pennsylvania just a couple of weeks ago and spent time and fetterman at that stage

he was still recovering from his health scare, but i did spend some time with his wife and she was stressing to me how much fetterman is a creature of the pittsburgh suburbs. born and bred, spends all his time there. he's very different from mehmet oz -- you pointed out -- he's probably very different from any political candidate out there at the moment. he has some of that populist feel about him. he's looser. he's more unconventional with his baggy shorts and his wife said i wish he'd wear pants all of the time and he wears shorts all of the time, but there's something about him that appeals and has this authenticity that perhaps oz doesn't have and oz is seen as an outsider still in the state and that's something that, of course, fetterman is hammering on. pennsylvania is a different state from ohio at the moment. pennsylvania is much more of a purple state than ohio is.

i think ohio is a tougher race for democrats because its become so red in recent years. >> if democrats pick up both of those if they do get pennsylvania and ohio, if they win georgia it is a hold for them and a lot on the line for the democrats. everyone, stick around. when we come back, women and doctors refusing to stay silent over the new restrictive state bans on abortion. we'll talk about that story next. abortion. we'll talk about that story next

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there's no easy way to say this, but your baby has a catastrophic brain abnormality. a decision will need to be made on termination. i wish i can tell you what to do, but there's only one person who can make this choice. >> yeah. how much time do i have? >> that person is greg. >> greg? >> who the [ bleep ] is greg? >> yeah. let me just give him a call. ♪♪ ♪♪ >> hey, greg. dr. robinson here. listen, i have a pregnancy that could -- yes. but i think this one is the -- yes. okay. sure. sure. >> okay. i'll let them know. ♪♪ >> yeah. that's going to be a no. >> a scathing and blistering ad by mothers against greg abbot taking aim at the texas governor and that state's ban on

abortion. it is part of a growing vocal backlash against politicians with women and doctors refusing to remain silent as republican state legislators have capitalized on the supreme court overturning roe to put health care decisions in the hands of the state. dr. caitlin bernard is not staying silent either. the indiana doctor who rose to prominence of her providing abortion care of a raped 10-year-old girl a hoax telling the new york times, physicians have been harassed and murdered and it because of that -- we're doing something illegal and we're not, and i feel compelled to say that. >> katty, let me ask you about that very powerful ad and just your thoughts about the message behind it, and the use of both the very emotive pull early on

and then the comedy and the humor and the mocking, if you will, of greg abbot? >> well, i think it certainly draws the attention, and i think this is where i believe that there is a difference maker in the elections coming up because these kind of ads that really draw your attention to the fact that some guy named greg abbot, a governor is controlling women's bodies in texas and that there are going to be areas of the country where this will make a huge difference in both the turnout and the opportunity for people to cast their votes and for women to say that we're not tolerating this anymore, and i think that's really important to draw distinctions where in the case of rape and incest and where the life of the mother is endangered even in these extreme instances that we'll have many more of these kinds of cases

that are going to come to light and it will highlight again the outrageousness of the decision by the supreme court. >> katty, whether it is the mothers against greg abbot with the very powerful ad or dr. bernard, women are leading the fight and talk to us on the response from dr. bernard her refusal to back away from the attempts to shame her and the other women to provide care to all kinds of women who are in need of reproductive care. >> yeah. it's really interesting what dr. bernard has said about staying silent and why abortion providers have stayed silent. obviously, they are targeted. their families are targeted. her own daughter, was there an fbi investigation as to whether there was a credible kidnapping attempt on her daughter and why they decided in the past to keep

quiet and it's changed so much that now they have to come out and talk about these cases. she is a doctor who deals with incredibly sensitive, second trimester cases and she's one of the few specialists in the country. as she says women who are having abortions in the second a pregnancy terminated, and i think this is the sort of secondary effect of the supreme court, the supreme court overturned roe v. wade but really with very little guidance around what it meant for some of these complicated medical cases of women who need a dnc, need a termination oftenperhaps after a miscarriage or have some kind of health or life-threatening condition, and the supreme court kind of issued this ruling and washed its hands of the complications surrounding that and as we hear more of these stories and more particularly of these heartbreaking stories, that ad is a kind of powerful

but also a strange mixture of humor, dark humor, blark humor around a sensitive subject but as we hear and doctors have said since that ad came out, there are real-life cases that are like that. this is not a joke. this is not a hypothesis. there are women going through that and i think as the country hears of cases like that, it does resonate because it feels like something has happened that has had unintended consequences even from in the supreme court's position and that may push some people to question whether things have gone too far. >> donna, do you think republican legislators understand the anger they have unleashed? >> i'm sure they do. up until now they've been able to talk about this without actually doing anything and now they realize the complications katty described, you're delving into the realm of abortion pill, delving into the realm of contraception and all of those

implications, in addition to the fact you have an awful lot of states giving short shrimp to what they need to do to provide basic support and safety net considerations for an awful lot of women and children that are now going to be out there needing the kind of support that they do, and unfortunately, some of the states that are actually the worst providers of safety net opportunities for women are also the ones that are imposing some of the most restrictive abortion restrictions. >> all right, donna edwards, katty kay, thank you for joining us throughout the hour. greatly appreciated your time and insights. up next, why 9/11 families proper testing trump's new jersey golf club. we'll tell with you that. trumpw jersey golf club we'll tell with you that when you have technology that's easier to control... that can scale across all your clouds... we got that right? yeah, we got that. it's easier to be an innovator.

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some more heroes and your call will make a difference. thank you for being our hero. all right so today in defiance of the families of 9/11 victims who begged him to cancel, ex-president donald trump participated in an event ahead of the controversial saudi-backed golf tournament played at his club in bedminister, new jersey. the tournament is criticized for the large sums of money from saudi arabia, over the saudi's history of human rights abuses. despite that trump continued to hype the tournament urging golfers to join, telling them to take the money now. that's not all. his response today to the families of the september 11th terrorist attacks? "nobody's gone to the bottom of 9/11" unfortunately. quick break for us,

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hey, it's tucker carlson. greetings to hungarian cpac. i can't believe you're in buddha pest and i am not. what a wonderful country. and you know why? you know why you can tell it's a wonderful country, because the people who turned our country into a less good place are

hysterical when you point it out. >> it's 5:00 in new york. i'm aymon mohyledin in for nicole wallace. you saw an address by fox news host tucker carlson to the most influential conservative gathering among the political right, cpac, that was when it was held for the first time in buddha pest in hungary. that destination was no random choice. hungary's prime minister, victor orba and his oritarian ways have been embraced by many u.s. conservatives. tucker carlson very much included. last august, carlson hosted his own show from buddha pest touting orban's anti-immigration policies as a model america should follow at home and sat down with the leader for an interview. but last weekend, orban took his anti-immigrant rhetoric up a notch, saying things that went too far for even some of those close to him. columnist for "the washington post" dana milbank "during a july 23rd address in which he said immigration should be

called population replacement or inundation he gave to the voice to the belief underlying nationalism. he opposes the mixing of races. migration has split europe into two or has split the west into two, he said. one-half is a world where european and non-european peoples live together. these countries are no longer nations, they are nothing more than a conglomeration of peoples." he went on to contrast that with our world in which we are willing to mix with one another, but we to not want to become peoples of mixed race. milbank continues "that was too much even for orban's long-time adviser, who resigned and lambasted the prime minister for a pure nazi speech worthy of gobalss." she said "the speech could please even the most bloodthirsty racists and suggested he was advocating an openly racist policy that is now

unacceptable even for the western european extreme right." you know who that speech wasn't too much for? the american right, orban remains on the list of speakers at cpac's next event, taking place in dallas next week. he will share the stage with many republican lawmakers and officials, including ted cruz, marjorie taylor greene, texas governor greg abbott, former trump aide steve bannon and steven miller and of course fox's sean hannity. cpac's chair matt schlapp seemingly unphased by orban's comments told bloomberg news "let's listen to the man speak. we'll see what he says, and if people have a days agreement with something he says, they should raise it." now the ap draws this conclusion about keeping orban on cpac's agenda, saying in part, "orban's appearance is the most dramatic indication yet of how a leader criticized for pushing anti-democratic principles has become a hero to segments of the

republican party." the right's embrace of an authoritarian leader of viktor orban of hungary is where we start. charlie psyches and kimber atkins, senior opinion writer for "the boston globe" and emancipator, a project withes the globe" focusing on racial injustice and former congressman david jolly fortunately for us all msnbc contributors. david, i'll start with you. orban's statements and white supremacist comments they have caused one of his advisers as i mentioned to resign and yet in our country, american conservatives are welcoming him to speak at their event, simply saying let's hear the man speak. what in the world is going on here? what has the republican party become? >> aymon, i would anticipate orban is lauded as an owe fish area and effective strong man and embraced by the american

right. the most important thing here we can talk about transforms authoritarianism but in this case it is about white supremacy, racism and xenophobia and what i mean by that is he acknowledged and frankly the american right has now embraced this notion of replacement theory and quietly try to deny that the hard right immigration policy in the united states is not about replacement theory, it is. it is about stopping brown and black people, other people of color from coming into the united states. they are not protesting western europeans from coming into the united states. they are protesting people of color, and so when orban embraces the replacement theory and at cpac, we see the conservative right in america hold him up as this effective strong man on immigration policy, it is the rights and honestly the republicans embrace of replacement theory. we need to call it what it is. it's racist and xenophobic and should be denounced by people of all political stripes, including leaders in today's republican

party, but i doubt we will hear that. >> charlie, this is quite dangerous. this embrace of orban's policies by the right, and seeing fox anchors fawn over him, is just one of the authoritarian lurches that we've seen the conservative movement, the republican party in america take in recent years, and there's nothing to keep it in check. >> no, and there have been a number of lurches here. look, the republican party and the conservative movement have obviously a mixed record on race, but there was a time when there was an effort to at least draw the line to say no, we have no place for the david dukes, so the certain things were disqualifying and that's over, and so what you've had is that not only has the right begun to tolerate this kind of raw racism, and it is raw racism. they are embracing it and now celebrating it. david jolly is absolutely right. look, you know, viktor orban has become a rock star for the

american right, because of his anti-immigration stance, his opposition to gay rights, his anti-democratic authoritarian moves, and now this really sort of unabashed opposition to race mixing that his own aide, his own former aide says this is pure naziism. now, again, there was once a time when republicans would be rushing to dissociate themselves from him, and now they are holding him up, and by the way, you know, how extraordinary it is that you have people like tucker carlson and cpac looking to this authoritarian leader of a foreign country, eastern european country as somehow a role model. we've gone a long way from the time which conservatives claimed that they were champions of american exceptionalism. >> right. >> now it's hungarian racist exceptionalism. >> what a low point for the conservative movement in this country. >> yes. >> kim, the republicans are showing us that not only are

they with the embrace of somebody like viktor orban anti-immigrant, even racist, but they are showing that they're willing to embrace this threat to american democracy. if you apply what viktor orban was doing in his country to america, would you effectively be undermining american democracy, and perhaps that is to some extent what the conservative movement wants to do here. >> well, that's a big issue here, aymon. we have seen throughout the history of the world that this sort of racist rhetoric and embrace of things like the replacement story go hand in hand with authoritarianism and that is one reason why i believe we are seeing a more open embrace of this among a sector of the gop. we have already seen them try to embrace authoritarianism through donald trump and making excuses for him for leaving in insurrection, but these things go hand in hand. you know, when i'm listening to this, i'm thinking about how,

when democrats put forward bills to try to protect the right to same-sex marriage, or the right to interracial marriage even in legislation, i had a lot of people conservatives say to me oh, you're fear mongering. nobody wants to try to attack the right, to interracial marriage. well, i'm not sure that's true, if the gop is embracing things like the replacement theory that really paints black and brown people as enemies to the nation, but again, you go back to hitler. these two things go together in order to be effective, and i'm very concerned about the increasing and open embrace of these groups, and this isn't the first time we've seen this. this goes back to donald trump telling the proud boys to stand by. this goes to the fact that the insurrection was backed by some of the most white nationalist anti-government extremist groups

that america has that has found a home in the republican party. this is the biggest problem that the republican party has right now, and it's become a problem for our democracy. >> david, speaking of the great replacement theory, you had the "new york times" recently put together many examples of tucker carlson stoking fears with this theory, he's become a huge champion of it. watch. >> this is how radical demographic change happens. i don't want to live in a country that looks nothing like the country i grew up, that can embrace the issues the middle class cares about or import a new electorate from the third world and change the demographics so completely they'll never lose again. if they import enough new countries they'll be in control forever. the long-term agenda of refugee resettlement is to bring in future demographic voters. illegal immigrants are the key to their power. the point is to appoint new democratic voteerts as possible.

the whole point of their immigration policy is to ensure political control, replace the population. it's called the great replacement, with more obedient people from far away countries. >> this one of the most influential voices in the american right. speak to me about the fear and hatred being spewed from one of the most highly-watched networks. >> it's hate speech, aymon, and we need to call it that. it's hate speech by tucker carlson on the platform that is fox news, and not only does it reflect the decline of american conservatism, if you could ever suggest that tucker carlson was an intellectual thought leader on conservative tichl but it is the state of play. it's the decline of conservatism but also dangerous for american culture. the shooter in the buffalo market wrote the manifesto replete with themes of the great replacement theory because he clearly digested them on platforms like you just heard from tucker carlson. it's hate speech being engaged

upon by one of the leaders in today's conservative movement and it's pretty disgusting that republican leaders elected and otherwise throughout congress and the senate and wherever else will try, will seek out the opportunity to go on tucker's show to participate in that type of language. it's hate speech. it should be denounced. >> kim, let me take what david was just saying there, because as we see, the great replacement theory finds a home on fox, but we're also seeing a rise in extremism and violence as a result. here is the assistant attorney general, matthew olsen, earlier today at a house judiciary committee hearing. watch. >> the department of justice is committed to tackling the alarming threat at home from domestic violent extremeism. domestic violent extremists are individuals in the united states who seek to commit violent criminal acts in furtherance of domestic or social or political goals. for example, we have seen a growing threat from those motivated by racism. >> so how do we stop a threat

like that, when it is fueled by the rhetoric of one of the major political parties in this country? >> yes, so it's important to understand that the domestic extremist threat is not new. that has been the greatest threat in terms of terrorism to americans for many years now. what is different now in the last couple of years is that you have the gop all the way up to the top and the former president openly embracing and protecting and defending this aspect of it, and so that creates a bigger problem for our law enforcement. we have to fight this both politically and through law enforcement. law enforcement has been so focused on foreign terrorism for so long that the entire mechanism is not focused on the domestic threat. so our doj, fbi, they have to retarget their attention to that, but at the same time, we have to call out, as david said,

the racism that politicians are embracing for what it is so that the american people can see and understand what is happening and that they're using this to try to hold onto power in the absolute worst way. >> charlie, i want to go back to pox for a moment and the role they're playing in this echo chamber, if you will and read you something jeremy peters wrote in the "new york times," when former president donald trump spoke to a friendly crowd on tuesday in his first visit to washington since leaving office, he was covered extensively by a range of news outlets, both mainstream ones and those more sympathetic to him. there was one notable outlier, fox news. fox devoted little airtime to his speech. it did not broadcast his remarks live and hasn't done so for most of his rallies over the past year. but it did go live with a competing speech that former vice president mike pence delivered the same day, at a hotel less than a mile away. for roughly 17 minutes on tuesday afternoon, fox viewers heard mr. pence uninterrupted."

your thoughts on this, what do you make of fox news in recent times cutting trump loose with not carrying his speeches or his rallies live? are we seeing trouble growing between fox and perhaps more specifically the murdochs and donald trump? >> you have to put this in context, because of course you had the murdoch-owned newspapers, the "wall street journal" and "new york post" ran harsh denunciations of donald trump. >> exactly. >> now you see a few cracks in the bromance between fox and donald trump, but i would also suggest that there's a long way to go and ruber murdoch is always keeping his finger to the wind so they can always go back into the fold as they did back in 2016, but i do have to say, though, that even as they distance themselves from donald trump, if they continue to give that kind of airtime to the great replacement theory, the damage is going to be

inicalculable. ideas have consequences. these toxic ideas can have fatal consequences. i certainly remember as recently as 2016 when paul ryan was speaker of the house, denounced donald trump for textbookcase of racism when donald trump played the race card against a mexican american judge who was presiding in one of his cases and paul ryan called him out on that. paul ryan sits on the board of directors of the fox corporation, which continues to give air time to tucker carlson, who is injecting this toxic racism into the mainstream and is mainstreaming a kind of racist rhetoric that just very, very recently was confined to the far corners of white nationalist and white supremacist websites, and so you really see the transformation and the real danger that's there, as david and kimberly were pointing out.

>> david, last night we saw 42 republican senators vote against the passage of a bill that expands health care coverage for military veterans exposed to toxins in burn pits during their service. i want to play what jon stewart, who has been a huge advocate for getting care to veterans and first responders for years now react to this earlier. watch. >> utter disbelief. i've been coming down here a long time and i'm used to the lies and i'm used to the deception and i'm used to the cowardice and used to the hypocrisy. but what i am not used to is the casual cruelty. >> "casual cruelty." explain why this happened and why it's another example of republicans showing us who they really are, what they pretend to be to the public and media and voters, what they vote on and shoot down when it comes to taking care of them. >> occasionally we get reminded how capable politicians can be to perform as children and that's what we saw in the republican side of the united

states senate last night. this is a bill that republicans largely support, but they're throwing a fit like a child would over some other matters in the u.s. senate just as you saw senator collins today suggest that because manchin reached a compromise with schumer on a tax bill that now the votes on marriage equality have gone away. it's child-like behavior the americans have grown to expect and shameful and in this case it has real consequences not just for the benefits provided to those who served in uniform but to the republican brand. they like to suggest they're pro-military and back the blue but when the rubber meets the road, what we have learned in the recent years is it's all false platitudes, because what they really subscribe to is republicanism, above all else. >> to david's point, the hypocrisy on display this week, president biden calling it out forcefully when he was talking about january the 6th saying the party, the republican party, you can't be pro-insurrection and

pro-cop. you can't be pro-insurrection and pro-america. what has happened to this so-called republican party, the rule of law party, the party that was supposed to, as david said, back the blue and the law and order candidacy of donald trump? >> well first of all, that was a very powerful line from the president on this. i'm glad he's finding his voice on this because this is a real contrast, the party that is constantly talking about we back the blue. we are the party of law and order, and yet when it comes to january 6th and the treatment of the officers, they are strangely silent. they look the other way, and this is incredible hypocrisy. this is the party that talks about the need to put down urban unrest, but when it comes to their own supporters invading the capitol to overturn the election, suddenly this becomes a walk in the park, a group of peaceful tourists. >> right. >> this is a real vulnerability for this party. in politics, you can go after

the other party's weaknesses or go after their strengths, and this goes right to the heart of much of the republican message that we are the party of order. we are standing behind law enforcement, except when they're trying to protect the congress of the united states and uphold the constitution. real vulnerability. >> kim, how do democrats use what we've seen from republicans to their advantage come to the midterms? >> look, i think speaking plainly about what is happening, speaking plainly about republicans willing to let injured veterans be sacrificed for the sake of holding together and opposing democratic initiatives even when they protect people that vote on both sides of the party, i think it's about being clear about who their associates are, and also doing everything that they can to protect democracy and the democratic process in our elections. i think they need to be laser

focused on this. there's a tendency among democrats to fight amongst each other, to fear about backlash about what they say and do. i think the time for that is over. the danger is too great, seeing authoritarianism and attack on democracy. it is time to speak plainly about exactly what republicans are doing, and explain that to the voters and urge them to go out and vote. >> kim atkins stohr, charlie psyches thanks to both of you for starting off this hour. david, we'll talk to you about other political undertakings. when we return, what sane republicans are doing in the face of rising extreextremism. david jolly tells us why the new third party he's involved in that will be successful. plus new missile strikes in ukraine as forces mount a counter-offensive to take back parts of their country. we'll have the latest live report. and no word yet from russia about the deal on the table to free wnba superstar brittney griner and detained american paul whalen, but there is a

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there's a new political party on the block, it is called the forward party, launched this week, it is the brainchild of andrew yang, the former democratic presidential candidate and former new jersey governor christine todd whitman a republican. in a washington post op-ed, america's founders warned about the dangers of a two-party system. today we are living with the dire consequences. giving americans more choices is

important not just restoring civility, our lives, livelihoods and our way of life depend on it. david jolly is the chair of the serve america movement, one of the three groups as of yesterday merged into the new forward party. david, let me say off the bat i couldn't agree we need a third party in the country, we need more parties frankly. explain more why you started this, what you're hoping to achieve and whatever you can tell us about the forward party. >> yes. aymon, thank you for the introduction. i did lead one of the groups, the serve america movement that merged into forward for disclosure, i do not have an official role with forward. i had a seat at the table for what forward launched last night, something political history has never seen before, a coalition of political party that brings together left, right, and middle, not a party that sets out a specific ideological agenda but one that instead sets out an agenda based on pluralism, recognizing the

disaffected left, right and middle, the 40% of the country that today registers without political affiliation could coalesce around shared values of problem-solving, basic commitment to defending democracy, to economic opportunity, to personal liberty and actually celebrate, this is the most important thing, aymon, celebrate ideological diversity and independent thought. there are no political parties today, minor or major that celebrate independent thought. the theory for the forward party is to recognize that answers lie all across the ideological spectrum, let's bring them together, celebrate them, solve the nation's most pressing problems. >> explain and elaborate on something you wrote in "the washington post" that we read from. you identified this group as an open party. tell me what that means. >> yes. look, very simply, this is a party that does not have a top-down platform. it actually empowers candidates and voters within their communities to determine what are the right policy positions

for my community that i'm going to offer to represent. the politics in boston, massachusetts, are very different than say birmingham, alabama, but what we have found is by recognizing that, and by kind of celebrating the fact that americans can come from different perspectives, but work out some of the toughest issues we face, that that's the way to run a political party. a lot of people have suggested the 40% of independents are all moderates or centrists. that's wrong, and where they have tried to coalesce around a centrist ideology, it doesn't work. aymon, i'm for greater gun control but lower taxes. find me a party today that lets me celebrate and exercise those politics. it doesn't exist. that is what forward is trying to build. >> the litmus test used by the parties is more exclusive by the day. i do have to ask you the obvious question. let me play devil's advocate. some people watching say the history of third parties in america not exactly the best. they have shifted the balance of power in general elections to candidates that perhaps the majority of americans didn't

want. are you certain that the forward party won't inadvertently help trumpism in the long-term by splitting votes? i say trumpism not just of who trump is but trumpism as an ideology that's taken hold in the republican party. >> yeah, it's the classic spoiler question, and it depends on where you sit and where your personal politics are. in this cycle, most independent candidates are actually taking votes away from republicans, and other cycles perhaps democrats, but i would suggest a very important thing here, that what the forward party is doing is not an exercise to try to run a '24 presidential candidate. the forward party is trying to build a durable, credible, viable national party that is eligible in all 50 states for ballot lines from mayorships to town supervisors, to county commissions, to state legislatures, congress and the u.s. senate, and along the way, i don't think you'll see them play spoiler. i think you'll see them get elected and there are

sensitivities to the spoiler argument. what i would argue is this. if the forward party or any minor party becomes effective at mobilizing independent voters, the opportunity is there for any major party to pick up that coalition, and if the democrats or republicans decide out of their own self-interest to expand their tent to expand their coalition, i think what forward embarked upon last night would change american history. >> this party was standing something we need. we have more than 100 different types of water to choose from at the supermarket. we only have two political parties to represent 330 million americans with all of its diversity. few are things more entrenched in american politics than the two-party system unfortunately. how do you confront, how do you begin to change those structural challenges and make a third party sustainable? how can the forward party actually take root in america? >> so there are over 500,000 elected offices in the united

states. we think about 500 of them in washington. 500,000 elected offices, about 60% of them only have one candidate, they're uncontested. i think you will see forward candidates compete for those seats. there are also talks already for sitting incumbent elected officials to change their registration to forward, but aymon, you hit on something very important. there are state laws in all 50 states that make it incredibly hard for a new party to take hold. after the merger of three organizations yesterday, the forward party becomes the third largest political organization in the united states, with staff and financial resources and attorneys to achieve legal recognition and valid access in all 50 states. ultimately, what forward will do is aggregate those 50 state parties into a national brand that hopefully speaks to a large swathe of people left, right and middle in a true celebration of pluralism, and that's why i was proud to have a hand in it. i will not be part of the official forward party, but i think it's exactly what our politics need and our politics

have not seen in modern political history. >> let's hope we can get it off the ground to some success in this country. david jolly, thank you so much. greatly appreciate you joining us. >> thank you. there is a major battle taking place in the southern part of ukraine. ukraineon forces retaking ground. a live report from ukraine next. ♪ ow, ow ♪ ♪ with a big, fresh carrot ♪ ♪ and a whole lot of cheese ♪ ♪ and the mirror from your van is halfway down the street ♪ ♪ well, you can say that -- ♪ wait, what? i said, "someone just clipped the side view mirror right off the delivery van." when owning a small business gets real, progressive gets you right back to living the dream. now, where were we? why, you were fixin' to peel me. [ laughter ] [whistling]

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. for the first time in weeks russian forces attacked the capital of kyiv, in retaliation for resistance to the russian invasion. at least 15 people, including five civilians were injured in the strikes. despite the attacks in the capital, ukrainian forces have begun their counter offensive in the south in their attempt to take back kherson the first to fall to russian control in the invasion. ukrainian artillery struck a bridge central to resupplying russian forces near kherson giving ukrainians hope the kremlin's forces in the area are actually vulnerable to attack. let's bring in "washington post" investigative reporter dalton bennett live in southwestern ukraine and former state department official and msnbc political analyst rick stengall. ukrainian forces have been preparing the counter offensive for a while. tell us the latest and why this

is strategically important for the ukraines to hold onto the city? >> for the past several weeks we've heard and planning and announcement of an expected counter offensive here in the southern part of ukraine. the city of kherson is a strategically important city. it was as you said, one of the first cities to actually fall to the russians at the beginning of the invasion, and sewly what we've seen is ukrainian forces have been able to claw back and take back territory over time from russian forces. at the same time, what the ukrainians have been do something focusing on the rear areas, right, so we just see these images up here now, we see the bridges that have been targeted, and you know, from the ukrainian officials that i've talked to, from the soldiers i talked to on the front line that are in the trenches, trying to hold onto territory, they're being pounded every day by russian shelling, but recently,

with the arrival of these long range artillery systems provided by the united states government, they've been able to reach deeper into russian-held territory. this is to them a huge relief. at the same time, there is a growing evidence that forces in this area, the ukrainian forces in this area are slowly beginning to amass enough forces to actually push forward towards kherson. the soldiers that we were with day-to-day, the morale is high. at the same time they say there's a need for more weaponry, particularly given the use of long-range artillery for the russian forces as they try to hold onto the territory and push forward to the city of kherson. >> dalton, do you get a sense based on your reporting and what you're seeing on the ground that the ukrainians, if they are able to make the advances as you're reporting and others suggest that they're able to hold onto the territories and withstand

perhaps potential russian counter offensives in the coming weeks, if the russians try to regain those territories? >> well i think the big challenge in this part of the country is that actual geography. this is a step, a flat area and apart from the couple bigger cities, you have villages that line major highways that kind of connect the dots in this area, right, so any type of advance will require you to move through those areas at the same time russian forces have been targeting any type of building that could be used to house soldiers, any type of building that could be used to hide troop movement and disguise troop movements. that poses a serious challenge. obviously if ukrainian forces are able to get to the gates of the city, from the soldiers that we've talked to that are actually from that area from the residents that are from that area that have fled, they expect a strong resistance from

residents inside the city that have stayed behind. what we've been told is russian forces that are located and occupy the city itself, they're very hesitant to patrol on foot there. they're mostly relegated to the outskirts of the city. they travel around in heavily armored convoys or groups because they're concerned about partisan activity in the city itself, so i think the big challenge right now at this moment is actually getting to kherson, right, and then the next step would be to push out russian forces, and we're still, there's still a ways to go at this point, but it's clear that the ukrainians are posturing themselves, we're seeing a shaping of the battlefield targeting the locations like bridges that would be central to resupplying russian troops that are inside of this city. >> rick, obviously based on this reporting that we're seeing from dalton and others, u.s. western support is finally helping

ukrainians at least in their battle against russia. it is changing the dynamics of the battlefield and giving them a little bit of offensive capability as opposed to defensive as we saw early on in the war. how important is this continued support for the u.s. to i guess expand the capabilities and the abilities of the ukrainians? >> aymon, it's actually imperative. it's vital. it's necessary to ukraine's survival as an independent country. the high mart missiles and trucks don't take a lot of training. they're very efficient. they move fast. they're very highly targeted as the ukraine defense minister said. they're using them like a scalpel. but they need more of the actual missiles. the european powers need to keep supplying more -- the russians are the big bear, and so they can afford to stay there, even though their troops have been diminished. they're right on the border of ukraine, so ukraine needs all

the help that they can get from us. they're making use of the help we have given them but it has to continue. >> and so rick, if you look at the litany of issues here back at home, there are people who are questioning to what extent the united states should continue to provide the funding that it has been, amid all of the priorities that are coming to light more and more. what is the case that you would say to americans, who are watching this administration and the democrats continue to pass bill after bill to the tune of billions of dollars of aid packages to the ukrainians, when it could be spent on things here domestically. >> aymon, it's a fair question, and i think the first way to respond is to say that it's a fair question. i mean, but it's not a mutually exclusive one. helping ukraine and doing the things we need to do at home are not mutually exclusive. so for example, you take the bill that was passed today and yesterday that has incredible

impact on u.s. relations, the semiconductor to spend $280 billion to make semiconductors here in the u.s. that is extremely important. we can help ukraine and do things like that at the same time. but the reason we're in ukraine is because it's an existential issue for democracy around the world. this is, it was an unprovoked attack on the sovereignty of another nation, the largest one since world war ii. that's not something that can stand and that the u.s. can stand idly by. that's my argument. we can walk and chew gum and do a whole bunch of other things all at the same time. >> fair enough. rick stengel, stay with us. a lot more to discuss. dalton bennett, thank you for your reporting. please stay safe, as always. when we return, new developments on the proposed prisoner swap to free wnba star brittney griner and another man and new questions about the fate of a third u.s. citizen held in russia, one that you probably

have not heard of. back with that after a quick break. break.

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pelosi makes her reported trip to taiwan. meanwhile, russia has responded to the u.s.'s proposal in negotiations to free wnba star brittney griner and fellow jailed american paul whalen. the kremlin stating earlier today no agreement had been reached between the two countries in regards to a prisoner swap but the kremlin spokesman expressing surprise at the public nature of the u.s. proposal. we are back with rick stengel. it's great to have you with us on these two very important conversations. first, what do you make of russia's response today to the deal? how important will this reported call be between secretary of state tony blinken and foreign minister sergey lavrov, if it does, in fact, happen? >> i think it's very important, aymon, but we also have to recognize how the russians see this. these kinds of hostage negotiations have always gone on behind the scenes. the russians are not used to the

amount of publicity that miss griner has gotten in america and around the world, and that is i'm afraid a double-edged sword, on the one hand it gets you to the top of a list and it gets to that secretary of state talk to the russian foreign minister. at the same time, it gives the russians leverage, too, in part because they know just how important she is to american foreign policy and to the president of the united states. so i applaud the secretary for getting on the phone with his counterpart, but it will be a tricky negotiation because these negotiations are made much more difficult when they're done in public. >> there's also the case, rick, and you touched on this a little bit because of the profile of brittney griner but also this teacher who committed the same crime under russian law as brittney griner but is not being talked about in any swap negotiations. why wouldn't this teacher be included in this negotiations by the u.s.? wouldn't this be an opportunity

for the u.s. to try and release as many americans that it believes are being unjustly held in russian jails? >> well, aymon, we don't know that the teacher isn't being talked about, and but my understanding of how this works -- >> true, yes. i suspect the teacher -- could be some part of a deal, but again, the russians have some leverage and could negotiate. the u.s. i'm sure would like to include the teacher. maybe the russians don't. t just impossible the know. >> that's a very fair point. since we don't know the details and contours. what we know is it's not getting the kind of attention brittney griner or paul whelan received as those negotiations have intensified. let me if i can switch gears to china for a moment. the main part of the call has been trying to diffuse at least reportedly china's feelings

about speaker pelosi's reported trip to taiwan. how does the administration navigate this? you're a communications expert by training. how does the biden administration communicate to the chinese speaker pelosi's visit is not official u.s. policy. but at the same time, not throwing the house speaker under the bus, so to speak? >> yes, it's very tricky. i think it's hard to imagine two countries who understand each other less than china and the united states. i think it will come as a surprise to some of our viewers that the u.s. does not actually have diplomatic relations with taiwan. those were ended with the taiwan relations act in 1979. we don't have a military relationship with taiwan. we don't promise that we will come to taiwan's defense if they're attacked. so the chinese see any kind of official visit as an official

visit. china's a unitarian state. nobody does things that xi jinping doesn't want them to do. speaker of the house can go to taiwan if she wants. the president can't tell her not to, but the chinese don't see it that way. it's a tricky diplomatic call. >> are you concerned what china might do in retaliation? we have about 30 seconds but what might that look like when they say there could be severe consequences as a result of this visit? >> china's military is in the south taiwan straight in the military sea. they could become aggressive with u.s. military vessels in the area and planes i think there could be saber rattling and i hope that's all there is. >> rick stengle, always a pleasure. thank you for spending time with us this afternoon. quick break for us. we'll be right back.

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and that's on top of your airline miles. so you can go and see... or taste or do absolutely nothing with all those bubbles. without ever wondering if you're getting the most out of your trip. because you are. you may remember the story of malley mcmorrow, smeared by a colleague describing her as a groomer. now that republican's plan backfired. she gave a speech that went viral and since then raised over $1 million. as for her republican colleague, she took in a grand total of, wait for it, 235 bucks. thanks for being us with this thursday. ari melber with "the beat"

starts next. stay with us. stay with us

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welcome to "the beat." i'm ari melber. we are covering a lot tonight, including this breakthrough for the president's agenda in washington. initiatives that were long left for dead roaring back to life. many eyeing a big win ahead of the midterms. senators schumer and manchin, who had been holding out, are brokering this deal behind closed doors, and we're going explain what it means. some call it the most ambitious climate action ever understood taken by the united states. that's how "the times" put it. and med care would regulate the price of prescription drugsn