former dnc chairman howard dean will join me. we will dive into what is driving voters to the polls, and whether democrats can defy history and avoid november problems. that is tomorrow on msnbc. michael steele is in for velshi, next. >> today on velshi, congressman adam kinzinger is one of two republicans on the january six committee. he will join the show to talk about a flood of new witnesses who started talking. plus, olivia troye, former aide to mike pence will be here to weigh in on the political rivalry growing up between pence and trump. if you stick around, we will hear from ali velshi himself, but the special saturday addition of the velshi banned book club. velshi starts. now.

good morning. it is saturday, july 30th. i'm michael steele in for my friend ali velshi. the january six select committee's historic public hearings may be done for the short term. but, the investigation into the insurrection continues on multiple fronts. the two former senior officials at the center of the latest leaked controversial -- chad wulf, and former beauty secretary, ken cuccinelli, has responded to a report in the washington post but their text messages leading him to january 6th and vanished. by saying, they did not do it. both former officials took to twitter to blame the former department they worked for, dhs, for the missing text. with wolf adding, quote, dhs has all my texts, emails, phone logs, and schedules. speaking of wolf, the ap report of the select committee has reached out to him could potentially appear. as an act of talks are looking

to bring in another high-ranking trump official, including the former director of national intelligence, john ratcliffe. even secretary mike pompeo. not only that, former treasury secretary and enthusiast of holding uncut bells, stephen mnuchin, has now also testified. as has former she's of staff, mulvaney, who tells nbc news he was asked about text messages he sent to current rnc chair, ronna mcdaniel, days after the election. >> instant tweets and tax on january six. we will talk about that. there is also heavy involvement in the trump campaign. they wanted to know the discussions i had leading up to the election day. and discussions right after election day. interestingly, there were questions towards the end about general questions about how a white house might run. we wanted to know the process for example, upheld visitors would see the president.

how a chief of staff would typically include or exclude people from meetings with the president. >> and bc news has also confirmed that several officials and vice president mike pence's circle have appeared before a grand jury in the justice department's investigation into january six. including, pence's former chief of staff mark short. shortens with pence at the capitol door during the attack. he was the highest ranking former trump officials nor to testify so far before a federal jury. he most likely will not be the last. and bc has confirmed that donald trump is now a subject in the criminal doj investigation into the events leading up to the january 6th attack. in an interview with nbc news, attorney general merrick garland stressed that politics will not play a part in the investigation. >> if donald trump were to become a candidate for president again that would not change your schedule, or how you move forward or don't move

forward? >> say again, we will hold accountable anyone who is criminally responsible. for attempting to interfere with the transfer a legitimate lawful transfer of power. >> joining me now is katie, justice department reporter for the new york times. she's also an nbc contributor. welcome katie. let's start with the department of justices -- specifically as it relates to the january 6th select committee. it has, been as we all know, very hesitant to share any information. however, when we are hearing now reporting into katie, and the committee, is set to share some 20 witnesses transcripts with the doj. it is far less than the thousands that prosecutors have been seeking. the question is out there. is this the start of something big and important? it's the committee placating

the doj? >> i think that from the reporting we can see that the relationship between the committee and justice department is weakening to saw. basically, they were at an impasse over whether or not they could share information. both sides made their cases as to why or why not they should. at this point, the committee is not only going to share information. they decided they will give the justice department transcripts rather than have department officials come over to the hill, to look at the transcripts. you know, the team's in-camera. to look at them in person, it creates a whole lot more work. they will hand them over. the department, itself, sounds like they will do more targeted requests. the committee has said that the only issue they really engaged with, in the justice department, is the issue of fake electors. the justice department does seem to be speaking with the committee with really specific ends in mind, in terms of what kind of information it once. >> we played a moment ago a part of lester holt interview with merrick garland. merrick garland, essentially, said running for president, donald trump, will not play a

part in the doj investigation. we do not need to look any further from the 26 team allege -- congress always plays a role in these things. behind the scenes, what are you hearing about how this may play out? >> the 2016 election, i think, is a really interesting moment to look back on. in many ways it is a year that the justice department would not want to repeat. we had both candidates for president being investigated,, essential, for criminalized 70. this was extraordinarily unusual. they were branched into the election when the fbi director, jim, went out in public and talked about it. we had it politically -- disclosed not only the hillary clinton investigation, but the russian investigation which had aspects related to donald trump. i think the department is very cognizant that they don't want to make any public statements or public moves that would impact an election. however, to your point, if you are investigating a political

candidate, no matter what you do, it is going to be construed as political. i think that is one of the reasons why garland has, from the beginning, the an extremely cautious about making no public statements. in any way, shape, or form. they would touch on any public officials that could or could not be involved in this investigation. >> katie, i want to keep in on at least, i think for many people, one major aspect of the effort to overturn the 2020 election. that is the fake elector scheme. colleagues of yours of the new york times revealed that not only was the scheme very haphazardly put together, but lawyers working on the plan admitted in emails that it was fake. i mean, literally, one email from a phoenix-based lawyer helped organize this pro trump electors effort in arizona. he sent, on december 8th of last year, 2020, to a trump campaign advisor, an email which amazingly reads, we would just be sending in fake electoral votes.

to pence, so that someone in congress can make an objection when they start counting votes. they will start arguing that the fake votes should be counted. so, take us through how significant this type of email is. some of the many other emails that have been uncovered by the times. >> this kind of email is going to make the job of any defense attorney much harder. taking a step back, the fake electors plan, as we are all calling it now, it has its roots in something that legitimately happened in the 1960 election. you saw a very close race in the single statement florida where the had 100 votes for kennedy or nixon. nixon had admitted a slate of electors. kennedy treated an alternate slate should the vote count go his way. when it did, that is the sites that prevailed. it was actually nixon himself presiding over the senate that decided to use the kennedy slate, because of what happened with the vote count. trump's allies felt this created a president for having

an alternate slate of electors that could be used if something happens like a race was closed or you got a recount. you could sum the alternative slates in this case for donald trump. you can see from these emails that the white house was doing, and that it was not a close race. it had been called for joe biden. they were wondering whether or not they could create the illusion of massive voter fraud in order to invalidate things. they were hoping that president mike pence would use his powers to simply invalidate the biden slates electors in key swing states. you see emails that you just mentioned where people who are involved in creating these, and signing their names to them in some cases, have employers working on the plan, all sort of talking about the fact that what they are doing is probably not legal. they are calling it fake. they are saying, i guess we should call it alternate instead of fake. these are the sorts of things that if you are a defense lawyer you have to look at and say this is going to be very tough when this is presented before a jury.

>> katie, thank you very much. we appreciate it. joining me now is the former chief spokesperson for the department of justice, matthew. matthew, several of the closest aides to former president mike pence have appeared before the grand jury. this isn't a doj investigation, including his former chief of staff, marc short. take us through what's fourth appearances may mean at this point, is this a sign of the investigation? is it zeroing in on the white house? >> i think it absolutely is. harder than any other way. we can see the justice department getting closer to the target. it is looking at the revelations that we have seen over the last few weeks. first to see evidence that the department had subpoenaed people out of states, asking for communications with top trump officials. then you see the department heads had search warrants on the homes of some of the key architects of this plan. jeffrey clark, the former justice -- the outside lawyer came up with

this and fake elector scheme. finally, you see the vice presidents aides coming into the grand jury. it is hard to imagine what they would be there to talk about except for the presidents pressure on the vice president to, ultimately, participate in the fake elector scheme. i think we can see that as the apartment not just getting close but finally feeling comfortable to move to a really overt stage of the investigation. the department, obviously, knew that by inviting marc short and jacobs into the grand jury, this would be publicly reported. they could not get out or enough the white house without having people see them. it is now public. we should expect to see more people going into the grand jury in the coming weeks. >> i want to zero in a little more on the pence piece of this, and why you think the vice president himself has not been called to appear. i would think he would be an important piece in this scenario. >> i think there are two answers to. that one is that he has not been called yet, and it does not mean he will not be called

eventually. i think he would want to, before you call someone like the former vice president, we would want to have all the evidence from his aides of what happened in the room, and what you should ask him. the second thing is, you can tell the department is still uncomfortable with issues of executive privilege. he is working through those issues. there have been reports that when they have had shorts with jacobs in the grand jury, they did not asked them directly about the interactions with president trump, or things that president trump said, or things that were said to him. they expected that that is a question that could be litigated. i think the department, i suspect, the brothers would try and make this case without having that executive privilege. biden puts the department in an awkward position. they are trying to protect the interest of the executive branch of the presidency, and future presidents. they would like to make the case without it. if they can't, they will have big decisions to make about whether they tried to pierce executive privilege, which, to be clear, the sitting president has said he is willing to waive in this instance. if so, how long might it take

to litigate that if you have witnesses like mike pence who claim that they want to testify? they cannot about certain questions because of privilege. >> let's get into the politics of the doj investigation into trump. you have merrick garland. he says, the only pressure the justice department prosecutors feel is right or wrong. yes, right, come on, surely, anyone working on this case understands that it is unprecedented. this is not just about right and wrong. there are some politics here. >> i do not know if there is politics in the sense of partisan politics. obviously, the attorney general and everyone at the department feels the pressure of public demands to be aggressive in this case, and hold on right now. the best evidence is looking at the way merrick garland talks about this case now versus the way they talked about it last year. he is much more forward -leaning.

he is still learning the attorney generals art of saying nothing, and sounding like you are saying something, which is a little bit of a change from last year one who would say nothing in sound like he was saying nothing. i do think he made one thing very clear in the interview this week. he was talking about who the department was targeting and names and subjects. that is appropriate. he should not do that. he did make very clear that donald trump's status as an ex president is not something that will prevent the department from going forward. that was important. you do hear people say that we do not want to be indicting next presidents. that puts us down a road to banana republic it status. i disagree with that statement, but if someone has violated the law of their status as the next president should not give them immunity. the attorney general made very clear that the debate is settled inside the department. if they find evidence that anyone broke the law, including donald trump, they will not hesitate. >> matt, here is the rub.

i get that pressure. the department is saying, you know, former president, we are not worried about that. donald trump is making noise about running again for the white house. we have seen the impact that this potentially could have on this investigation, if he is a target in any way. how does that change the scenario if from says that he is a candidate for office again? what do you think that plays out as? >> if there is one criticism, i think has some merit to it, some criticisms of the department say they might have been moving too slowly to look at the former president. i say that because the only real rules that finds the departments are this kind of practice they have of not taking an overt action, 60 days before an election. if you look at the most aggressive way it would be that we cannot indict donald trump before 60 days of a general election in 2024.

whether it's a republican nominee, or 60 days before the primary, in 2024. you are backing up into november and december of 2023. so, they really have a clock on this. it is taking. if they are going to have all the options they want to have available to them, including the indictment of the former president, if the facts are merited, they need to get going. they need to bring that case, and have about 14 months or so, or 15 months before they get into a window that will close. if he is a candidate for president. date for president. all right, matt miller, appreciate you man. thank you very much. at the top of the hour i will be joined by one of just two republicans on the january 6th select committee, congressman adam can zinger. but first, an update on one hand swirled with olivia troye as the former vice president's position has an alternative to donald trump. that's going to be interesting.

and next, how the fat is trying to rein in inflation without spurring a recession. but first, we have breaking news out of kentucky. we are at least 23 people are now confirmed dead following catastrophic flooding. the worst in the state's history. that figure is unfortunately expected to rise. the dead reportedly include for young siblings who died after being swept away from their parents grip. officials say almost 300 people have been rescued so far, and the search and rescue operations are ongoing. we will be right back. operations are ongoing we will be right back. we will be right back. this is the moment. for a treatment for moderate-to-severe eczema. cibinqo — fda approved. 100% steroid free. not an injection, cibinqo is a once-daily pill for adults who didn't respond to previous treatments. and cibinqo helps provide clearer skin and less itch. cibinqo can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb.

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recession. i don't think we have to. we think that there is a path for us to be able to bring inflation down while sustaining a strong labor market. >> we are not trying to have a recession. but these days folks kind of ills like a recession is trying to have us. that was fed chair jerome powell talking to reporters this week after raising interest rates for the fourth time this year. powell is of course not trying to have a recession, when he is trying to do is bring down inflation which is at a 40 year high. jacking up interest rates, making it more expensive to borrow money can still rising prices, but that path jay powell mentioned, the one we go between one away inflation on

one side and in a recession on the other, without violent falling prey to either, that is a very tricky path to navigate. joining me now is mayor a mark way, an economic reporter for the wall street journal. amara, tell me how narrow is this path? and what are the chances that the fed and biden ministration can navigate it without bringing on a recession? because i feel like, we are tipping. we are tipping. >> well, you know, in that same press conference fed chair powell said that the path of narrowed and that it kadyrov. so the fed realizes that what they are trying to do is a very delicate thing. they are trying to slow down the economy, but not slow it so much that we are pushed into a recession. and the biden administration officials have said that they agree that there is a path, but that it is going to take for instance, treasury secretary jen yellen said that it's gonna

take skill and luck to pull this off. and what you see the biden administration really trying to go out there and reassure the american public that, although we have had two quarters of economic contraction, which is a common sort of shorthand definition for recession, that there are other factors in the economy the points to the economy still being on solid footing. particularly when you look at the labor market. but, you know, this debate about whether we are or aren't in a recession, that is really semantics. and as you say, michael, people really feeling the pain of inflation. they don't care if it's technically a recession or officially a recession. they can tell that the economy is slowing down, they can tell the prices have risen for the things they need, and that is why you see such negative sentiments about the economy when you look at polling data and consumers sentiment data. >> so how would a recession at this point be felt by americans on a personal level? you just referenced some of that. and what kind of advice can we give them to help them understand, how best to navigate the space? because you are right.

you are having the administration not wanting to use the r-word, right? but then you have economists, and other folks in the finance industry talking about, yeah we hear this is a recession. the american people are like, you have a little bit more like that. so how do we help folks understand exactly what's happening to them right now? >> well, what is happening is that the fed is raising interest rates. and that is already seeming to have an impact on the economy. when we see things like the housing market slowdown, we are still seeing growth in consumer spending but we are seeing a little bit of a slowdown. and so what people should expect is that the economy is going to slow a bit. it remains to be seen how much, how great that slowing is. the fed has set unemployment could rise a little bit, that there could be an uptake in joblessness. essentially we are and wait and see mode. and the administration, although they are trying to persuade americans that things are on solid footing, they have knowledge that there are without their. we still have russia's war in

ukraine, we still have the pandemic, so we are all and wait and see mode right now to see how things unfold as the fed continues its campaign to lower inflation in the months to come. >> some era, a lot of what you have mentioned place to the underlying issue here, and that is politics. we know the politics is infused in all of this, because at the end of the day, when people go to the polls in november they typically vote with their wallets. we are just over 100 days from our midterm elections, as you know, and clearly those fears that you referenced are a potent line of attack for republicans going into the fall. but given what you know about where the economy actually is, should it be that potent and what is the rebuttal that democrats can be great now against what republicans will say, oh my god armageddon, the world is ending because biden's customer session? >> well, the biden administration, democrats, they certainly know that the economy is top of mind for voters and that is why you see that making

such a hard pitch about the fact that there are still positive signs in the economy. i think the president biden perhaps got a break this week when we saw senators manchin and schumer come out with this inflation reduction act. it is a chance for the president to say, you know, look, democrats are trying to do something. we are trying to pass legislation that would lower postscript and drugs, reduce the deficit, but the administration is arguing that that if that legislation passes, it would help to ease inflation. so that is something they can perhaps take to voters. i think economists would say that that legislation could help reduce inflation a little bit, perhaps not too much. and they don't necessarily see it help reduce inflation soon. so we certainly not talking about that they would help before the midterms. i think the biden administration is gonna continue to do is to try to make the case that their policies have up the economy, they helped americans, whether this uncertain period of the pandemic, which are going to definitely see republicans continue to hammer the fact that inflation is at a 40 year high, and the fact that we have

these two quarters of contraction which some people do are defined as a recession. >> all right, wall street journal america mcquade, thank you so much for making us a little bit smart about that. so folks, we have some more breaking news this morning. and unless you are one extraordinary lucky person it's a bit of a bummer. mega millions has confirmed that there was one winning ticket soldier last night's one point to a billion dollar jackpot. i said it, yes. one point to a billion dollars. just let it sink in. that ticket was sold in illinois, and if it's yours, you are about probably a lot more popular right now the most of us. so this is all i have to say about that. there is no more there. so i'm, next the great divide with the borough vice president positioning himself as an ultra alternative to donald trump. i'll talk to olivia troye, former senior adviser to mike

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seems. for vice president mike pence is making all the moves that a person considering a run for office would make, according to political in august. he is planning his fourth trip to iowa since leaving office. pence will help fund raise for chuck grassley as well as some other iowa republicans on the ballot, in november. this comes after pence publicly faced off of his former boss. opposing trump backed candidates for governor in georgia, arizona, and wisconsin. touching on something of a proxy war between the two. if you asked pence about the divide in the republican party, you would never know a murderous mob of insurrectionists was set up on a bias with the boss, a year and a half ago.

>> know that our movement is divided. i do not know that the president and i differ on issues. we may differ on focus. i really do believe that elections are about the future. it is absolutely essential, at a time when so many americans are hurting. so many families are struggling. we cannot give way to the temptation to look back. >> pence is walking the finest of lines here. he is taking small steps to distance himself from donald trump. but still, unable to neglect the trumpian base of voters he would need to win the presidency. if there is anyone who knows what is going on on pence's mind, and in his head, it is olivia troye. currently the chief political strategist for the renew america movement. olivia, welcome. what do you make of mike pence

saying that he does not see a divide in the republican party right now? from where i am sitting, there is a divide. >> there certainly is a divide from where i am sitting, to. i am on the non maga side of the house trying to figure out where the party went with their insanity. look, i think he is trying to, you know, he is in a tough spot. he is trying to get a, you know, oppression on the policies of the trump administration. he was a big part of that, obviously. while he tries to walk a fine line of not alienating some more trump supporters and voters who think that he is a traitor, and hate everything he stands for, and tear him up to hang him. i think it is a tough call here. i think he is trying to, sort of, not just support candidates who are not maga, which actually, i give him credit for. i think more people should be out front on that so that we do not end up with all these crazies in office. >> can you give us a sense,

olivia, what is going on behind the scenes right now? because, to the public, pence has stayed neutral on pumps and january six, and all that. are there maneuvers happening? are there efforts underway to, sort of, put out a feel that, yes, a lot of pence's people have something to say about january six, and donald trump? >> i will be honest. there is a divide during the trump administration, in the white house, between the pence team and the trump team. that was a divide that they very much tried to keep out of the spotlight, and keep away from the media. they don't want them to know that that divide has always been there. i think what you are seeing now is this playing out more and more in the days to come, especially as we approach 2024. the issue, though, is that unfortunately, i do think that pence has surrounded himself

with some advisers who have always, sort of, tried to walk the fine line of whether they will be trump loyalists or support pence. at times, who see that come together, and come to fruition, i would say. what i would say is, i think pence needs to listen to his own instincts and got more. what i have seen is him doing that. he has actually been at his best. you may disagree with some of his policies. he is very, very conservative. but, i think he needs to touch that agenda if he is going to court true conservatives that are still out there, that are disgusted by trump's behavior. see if they can turn to pence. i think he has a really tough road ahead. >> do you think his gut, his instincts, they would lead him to appear before the committee, or what does that look like. ? the >> i would hope so, political admission runs deep here with a lot of people.

a few things that that would not benefit that in the future i think that the person who showed up on january six who told the line, who knew that he needed to do his job and hold up to the constitution, it's still in there somewhere, between him. i think would be best for him to come forward and tell americans the truth from his voice. i think it would be, you know, important. i think that should have happened. if it was up to me, it would have happened on january seven. liz cheney and kinzinger would not be standing alone. if anything, mike pence knows the exact truth. he knows they are telling the truth. because he lived it. >> to that point, you see, they'll, a lot of people, an awful lot of people coming out of the woodwork to testify before the january six committee. you have mnuchin and others. is this damn breaking. ? so that list cheney was talking

about? finally folks will pour into the conversation, or how do you think this will come out? >> i hope so. i always say, safety in numbers. it is all the strongest when you are standing up to the bully together. i have been hoping for this for a while now. look, i think that that is in the past. i think the committee has done an incredible job of showing the facts, and displaying the evidence. we are hearing from people, firsthand, that live this. they were very loyal eastern of the trump administration. they are republicans. some of them are maga. you cannot dispute the facts. i think the more the people come forward, and you think, there are others out there whose voices are being heard, i think it is a powerful thing. look, i think it is important for our country, especially in this moment, for people to do this with integrity, and the courage that cassidy hutchinson's and sarah matthews have shown. after all, it is easy when you are just telling the truth,

right? i think more people should do that. we would probably be in a much better place as a country, and a whole. >> olivia troye, we really appreciate you coming on the show here and for your insights. thank you so much. the former president is known for many things. now, two of them, his pensions for saudi arabia and his pension to play golf have comes together in his latest controversy. that is next on velshi. (dad) we have to tell everyone that we just switched to verizon's new welcome unlimited plan, for just $30. (daughter) i've already told everyone! (nurse) wait... did you say verizon for just $30? (mom) it's their best unlimited price ever. (cool guy) $30...that's awesome. (dad) yeah, and it's from the most reliable 5g network in america. (woman) for $30 a line, i'm switching now. (mom) yeah, it's easy and you get $960 when you switch the whole family. (geek) wow... i've got to let my buddies know. (geek friend) we're already here! (vo) the network you want. the price you love. only from verizon.

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seal of the presidency embroidered on the towels, and emblazoned tank hope carts. images of which have been captured by the washington post and others. and that is not just sort of sad, it is also potentially have highly should of federal law. which prohibits the use of the presidential seal in a way that could imply, quote, a false and press the oppression of sponsorship or approval by the u.s. government. for more on this, let's bring in nbc's alleges mclaughlin, who is in bad mystery new jersey. les, this tournament was already controversial because of its project being associate with the saudi government. tell me more about the controversy, and how trump is responding to. >> michael, good morning. that is right, liv golf is what is called. an upstart pro circuit to started last night in the main controversy is that it is bankrolled by saudi arabia sovereign wealth fund. so it is drawing criticism from

human rights campaigners who say that saudi arabia is using this sport to try to launder its reputation. some college sports washing. and this weekend's tournament at trump's bedminster golf club is less than 50 miles from ground zero. 15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers were saudi nationals, and families of the victims of 9/11. families of 9/11 victims are speaking out against liv golf, a group called 9/11 justices protesting the tournament this weekend. and donald trump has defended, is defending his decision to be part of live golf. the former president had this to say. >> i've known these people for a long time, in saudi arabia, they've been friends of mine for a long time. nobody has gone to the podium of 9/11, unfortunately. they should have. as to the maniacs who did a horrible thing to our city, to our country, to the world. so nobody has really been

there. but i can tell you that, there are a lot of really great people that are out here today, and we are gonna have a lot of fun, and we are gonna celebrate. >> trump saying that live is good for the sport of golf. another point of contention as this upstart probe golf circuit has aimed to up and traditions of the game. their motto is golf but louder emblazoned in neon all around the trump course here. and it encourages more fan interaction, there's a shotguns to hurt, some team play there. and they are the richest tournament this one's ever seen. phil nicholson and dustin johnson got $300 million between them in signing bonuses. some of the biggest persons ever seen in tournaments. but a lot of pro golfers are staying away. but it has resurfaced that long-standing question of athletes moral obligations, versus their desire to earn money. michael? >> nbc's liz mclaughlin, thank

you very very much. after the break, we will take a look at the latest in the controversial contradiction and post-roe landscape. with former obama health and human services secretary, kathleen sibelius. secretary kathleen sibelius. kathleen sibelius. kids don't always take the best care of school supplies. so save money shopping back to school on amazon. while they... 0oh... uh... figure their stuff out. ♪ ♪ this is the moment. for a treatment for moderate-to-severe eczema. cibinqo — fda approved. 100% steroid free. not an injection, cibinqo is a once-daily pill

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try downy wrinkle guard fabric softener! wrinkle guard penetrates deep into fibers, leaving clothes so soft, wrinkles don't want to stick around. make mornings smoother with downy wrinkle guard fabric softener. only a month after the supreme court overturned roe v. wade, abortion law being and settled in many states. trigger laws that were set to take effect in wyoming this week were temporary blocked by judges allowing abortion providers to continue their work through at least part of august. meanwhile, indiana and west virginia are poised to pass the first new anti-abortion laws in the post roe era. both states are seeking to ban abortion at all stages of pregnancy. and in a few days, people in the state of kansas will vote on the first abortion related ballot measures since roe is

overturned. the measure is an attempt to undo a previously, a previous ruling by the kansas supreme court, which found that abortion rights are protected under the states constitution. the ballot measure was proposed by republicans who want to circumvent that ruling by adding an amendment to the state constitution, to explicitly say that it's protections to not extend to abortion rights. if it passes, abortion opponents in the states republican controlled legislature will then have the ability to enact new abortion bans. that amendment will be up for a vote during the states primary this tuesday, instead of the general election in november, when of course, the turnout is typically higher. plus, registered independents do not usually choose candidates during the primary, raising concerns that they may not participate or even know that they can vote on the amendment. that is just one reason why abortion rights supporting, abortion rights supporters of called the campaign for the ballot initiative to deceptive.

the proposal is confusing language has already also made it difficult for many people to understand exactly what they are voting for. and recently, an anti abortion group has been pushing baseless voter fraud claims in an effort to get ballot drop boxes removed as early voting has gotten underway. joining me now, as kathleen severely, as a former secretary of. i am sorry, a health and human services. it is early, catherine, it is early. >> i understand. >> for the obama medication. and she also previously served as the governor of kansas. it is such a pleasure to see you, and to have you. a judge is thrown out that victory moved ballot boxes for tuesday's election. but let's unpack that for just a moment. these drop boxes are located in front of government buildings, where they are under surveillance for 24 hours a day. there is no evidence that has been offered in regards to the voter fraud concerns that have

been raised. what is your reaction to the average conflate these issues together? >> well, i think, first of all michael it is good to see you. i think that, unfortunately this is another step in what's been a very deceptive campaign from the start. so, as you said, the kansas supreme court ruled in 2019, three and a half years ago that the kansas constitution which was written by abolitionist. kansas was on the cusp of the civil war, and came into the union as a free state. the kansas constitution has a clause that absolutely guarantees women natural inalienable rights, and that includes the right to control their own reproductive health. nothing has shoes changed in that kansas long three and half years. the restrictions are still in place, the regulations are still in place. but over and over and over again, the legislature who is

super majority republican, has aimed at trying to eliminate women's ability to make their own health decisions. the amendment is very confusing. it is written in a very convoluted way, and really takes a lot of explanation. and, the legislation specifically chose what they thought would be the very lowest turnout election possible. not a general election ballot, either in a presidential year or a mid term, but a primary election in the midterms. the lowest possible votes. so, our job in terms of defending women's rights is really education and mobilization. and making sure that people know who can vote, people know how to vote, people know what the amendment says, and people know now looking at all of our surrounding states and neighbors, many of whom have totally banned abortion, what

lies ahead if the kansas constitution is amended. >> so, i want to pick up on your part about voters knowing how to vote or more importantly what they are voting on. the ballot in initiative is proposed by the republican controlled legislature. and in many ways they can feel the messaging and how that messaging would be rolled out from the very beginning. so, do you think it is still possible for supporters of abortion rights to overcome the confusion, a lot of a deliberate, and the lies a lot of it aimed at further confusion that have characterized this campaign? >> well that is certainly our hope. we have been amazing coalition. the kansans for constitutional freedom have been very active with partnerships across the state. and effort is still very much underway to knock on doors and make sure, on a person to person conversation people

understand what is at stake, understand how important it is to vote. one of the things, michael, is that not only do democrats not typically vote in primaries in kansas, because we don't have a lot of partisan debates about who is running for office on the democratic side. but independents almost never voted primaries. and about a third of our voters are registered as independents. to educate people that they have a right to vote, they have a right to go in and get a ballot in just vote on the amendment, has been part of the challenge. but we are still actually raising resources for this amazing organization, knocking on doors, voting will continue through the end of the day tuesday. the good news is that voter turnout in in-person advanced balloting is way up over where it was in 2018. we know that independents are voting. we know that democratic votes

are a lot closer to republican votes than is in a typical primary. so there is some hope that the message is really getting out. but this is a long way from over. we are here on saturday morning and we will continue this effort until the polls close at 7 pm central on tuesday night. >> kathleen's ability, as thank you so much for joining us and updating as. thank you. so don't go anywhere, folks. there is still plenty more you need to know the saturday morning. ali makes an appearance, as we shall see, for special saturday edition of the velshi banned book club. plus, congressman adam kings incur joins the show to break down all the latest of elements on the general six investigation. another hour of belski, starts right after the break. f belski, starts right after the break. right after the break. each lasting 4 hours or more you're not the only one with questions about botox®. botox® prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine before they even start—with about 10 minutes of treatment

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july 30th. it is 9 am and 6 am on the west. i'm michael steele filling in for my friend ali velshi. the walls are closing in on donald trump this week. we learned that the former president is a subject and what attorney general, merrick garland, has said is, quote, the most wide ranging investigation in the history of the department of justice. lawyers has doj have been asking about trump's conduct during the period between election day, 2020, and the insurrection in early january

2021. according to the washington post, quote, the prosecutors have asked hours of detailed questions about meetings trump lead in december, 2020, and january 2021. his pressure campaign on pence to overturn the election, and on the instructions, trump gave his lawyers and advisers about fake electors. this does not mean that the justice department has opened a criminal case against donald trump. but, it is an indication that they are gathering information about his conduct. meanwhile, the january six committee may have wrapped up its blockbusters public hearings for the summer. its own investigation of capitalist insurrection is far from over. the committee has continued to meet with witnesses in recent days. including, with former trump administration officials. on thursday, mick mulvaney who once served as donald trump's acting chief of staff, sat down with an interview with the committee. the associated press has also confirmed that former treasury secretary, stephen mnuchin, was recently interviewe