>> hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in the east. a key test of the power of trump and trumpism this week and one of the states that is crucial to the story of the 2020 election and the disgraced twice-impeached ex-president's campaign to overturn his defeat. arizona holds its republican primary tomorrow and trump and his allies are hoping to replace those republicans who stood in the way of his coup attempt with conspiracy theorists who may be all too willing to do his bidding if trump should run again in 2024 and lose there again. one of their biggest targets,

arizona house speaker rusty bowers. bowers didn't just refuse to participate in trump's campaign to, i don't know, end democracy. he testified about it publicly before the january 6th select committee laying out exactly how team trump pressured him to throw out the legitimate arizona election results even if they admitted they didn't have a scrap of evidence to back up their vote fraud claims. after saying back in june after that dramatic public testimony that he would support trump in a rematch against biden, bowers had a change of heart and is now saying that he will never, ever vote for trump again. here's what he told abc news jon karl after being the subject of attacks from donald trump. >> i have thought at times someone born how he was and raised how he was and he has no idea what a hard life is, and what people have to go through in the real world. he has no idea what courage is.

>> how do you explain the hold that he has, though, on republicans including a lot of republican leaders right here in arizona. >> yeah. they rule by thuggery and intimidation. so, you know, they found a niche. they found a way and it's fear and people can use fear. demagogues like to use fear as a weapon and they weaponize everything, and we all know it, but it's sad -- that's not leadership to me to use thuggery. >> thuggery and fear and demagoguery. that's how bowers, a trump voter describes trump's playbook. tactics that a crop of republican candidates are using to seize the levers of power in arizona. washington post reports on trump's chosen candidate for governor there, vote republican gubernatorial hopeful kari lake is telling her voters not to

trust the contest in arizona unless, of course, she wins. a former longtime local tv anchor has repeatedly said she does not recognize joe biden as the country's legitimate president. had she been governor in 2020 lake said she would not have fulfilled her legal duty to certify arizona's election results and it's a maneuver that could have disenfranchised the voters of thousands of arizonans to president biden and a big lie republican and former member of the oath keepers militia group is running to control elections in the state of arizona. new york times writes this about that, quote, mark fincham is the candidate of a trump-backed coalition with more than a dozen 2020 election deniers who had sought once-obscured across the country, they're testament to the evolution of the stop the steal movement and it is as much about influencing future

elections as it is about what happened in 2020. times also explains just why this particular race is so important for trump and his fellow big lie conspiracy theorists. quote, arizona, of course, occupies a special place on trump's map of election indignities as a one-time republican stronghold of president biden's crucial victory was first called by, of all networks, fox news. should trump run in '24 a former secretary of state could be in a position to help him avoid a repeat. democracy on the ballot in primaries in a pivotal battleground state is where we begin today. vaughn hilliard is live on the ground in arizona, and he'll be with us in a couple of minutes and first let's bring in our friend donna edwards, former democratic congresswoman from maryland who we are so happy to have back at the virtual table and tim miller is here. writer at large at the bulwark and the travel log of the

republican road to hell. donna edwards. your thought of watching -- i don't want to call it soul-searching because it sounds like he has found his soul, but the soul baring of rusty bowers is the anatomy of a tortured republican, trump-supporting republican in the state of arizona whose line was drawn at the coup. there are so many things that happened before that that didn't repel him or turn him into someone warning, it seems the whole country, but now that we have him as a front-row witness to not just trump's coup plot, but rudy's lack of evidence and the flimsy substantive pillars of the entire overturned the election was resting and it is fascinating to watch him pull this thread forward and talk about the politicians who would seize the reins in this state should trump succeed in ousting the truth tellers.

>> it's really fascinating to watch because the tactics that rusty bowers describe, the thuggery, et cetera, were tactics that donald trump began his candidacy with and throughout the time of his presidency. donald trump ruled with those tactics and so, you know, i'm glad that some of these republicans luke rusty bowers are finally coming around to recognizing the threat to democracy, but it may not be enough to save the day in a state like arizona. >> you know, tim, the arizona story is so important and it's sort of one of those front burner stories like pennsylvania story of mastriano, like the georgia trumpists who were threatening for a while, raffensperger and kemp. talk about how difficult it is in some ways to cover this statewide efforts to install trump loyalists and

anti-democratic politicians. >> and i think there are two thingsing that are hard for people to wrap their head around and the first you hit it in the intro. these are not campaigns that would have gotten national attention at all and my home state of colorado griswald running against a potential opponent who wanted to break into the voting machines to give some of the information to qanon. these types of people should be in a rubber room and now they're running to oversee elections and in a wave year, they could get pushed in. there's fincham in arizona and i'm sure we'll talk about the states and it's hard to wrap your head around that these people could be running lechs in key states in 2024. the second thing i think is really important and arizona is a great example is just how far the overton wind hoe has moved and if you look at the governor and senate races and you did

kari lake and this is a person that is going on steve bannon's podcast and won't call the president legitimate and is just far out in conspiracy land and all phony, by the way and the leading senate candidate and lake masters and we shouldn't do anything in ukraine and also a stop the stealer. we know they're crazy, but even if they were to get defeated by people on team normal, karen robson and vaughn can get into this and the pence-endorsed governor with kari lake, she would still say there was funny business. the other main senate candidate, she put out a report in the attorney general's office that was full of false innuendo and misreasonings about the election and trump endorsed the other guy because he wouldn't go whole hog in helping him steal it. so he's speaking trump's talking point, but he wouldn't go full coup so trump is now endorsing somebody else like masters who he thinks will go full coup next

time and i think that is the really important thing when they are saying there are the extreme crazy conspiracists and even the folks the next step over would have been unimaginable that would have been the normal republican politicians, five, ten, 20 years ago would have been going along with the scheme such as this to overturn our democracy. >> well, you raise a really important point they will make sure all future conversations are held in this context, team, and it's all being driven bylaws of relativity, and if you go at the center of it, who is for democracy, i think what you're saying, tim is not really any of them. >> rusty bowers and the democrat, and good for him, maybe belatedly and i'm happy to hear what you're saying on jon karl speaking the truth and he'll put his name on the ballot and put aside rusty bowers and even the candidates that are pushed by the d.c. class and defined by the media and not the

media's fault and the more mainstream candidate even those folks won't speak the truth about joe biden being the legitimate president. not saying that the president was legitimate not too long ago would have made you seem as conspiracists like the kari lakes of the world and that's alarming. >> i want to bring in vaughn hilliard. i want to come back to you, donna, it seems like the real contrast for democrats continue to make that if you want to continue to live in a democracy there's only one column whose candidates are determined to live in a democracy that governs our way of life. >> that's right, and i think tim is entirely correct, the markets move so much that people in the so-called mainstream of the republican party are pretty nuts themselves just standing alone,

and i think one of the problems that -- or the challenges that democrats have is contrasting themselves with part of the republican party that's incredibly animated so if these folks actually do get the nomination, democrats have to match that enthusiasm and animation in order to make sure to win these races, otherwise, all of us are at risk and democracy itself, and so i think it's really important to recognize that some of these folks aren't just outside of the mainstream, but that they could potentially win and that is what threatens democracy. >> vaughn hilliard, we came in talking about rusty bowers. i know you've spent some time with him. tell us his sort of state of mind. >> i met up with him over this weekend here, and he had an event with essentially family and friends and it was a lu you type of event and he show up

with an aloha shirt on and when i asked him how is he feeling here? if he does lose to this trump-backed challenger, what would he tell me and i think we have that sound if we can play it. >> if you do not win on tuesday why would you not have won? >> probably because i stood up, and when they asked me to tell the truth i told the truth. i wasn't the -- i didn't go looking for a fight, but the fact that i would break ranks and somehow find what the president, the former president did was unacceptable, that's like i broke some type of taboo, and i did break a taboo and it's kind of a cultic thing that you have to be in with the cult, and here's our doctrine and you can't go beyond the doctrine. >> and let's be frank, nicole.

you can't get much more local than a legislative district race here. we have been talking for weeks about what republican voters took away and what they thought of the damning evidence and the allegations laid out by those closest through donald trump through the public hearings in the january 6th select committee. rusty bows are has a good licklihood being abled, and running for attorney general to tim's point and wooe talking about the candidates are just looking at the second case, and burn vich who you and i had talked about in the past. he did everything to prove that there was fraud in the arizona's office to go, sniff around. you've built up a report showing that donald trump actually won.

he was unable to do so and i think that he was a part of a mainstream pro-democracy wing of the republican party here. that's why you didn't see the likes of doug ducey who voted to certify the election here. he hasn't endorsed the u.s. senate race and i had a conversation with jan brewer, nicole, and we were talking about kari lake. she said that kari lake is an extreme candidate and for anybody that was around ten years ago in the state of arizona you would have said jen brewer would be calling another wing of the party extreme and it's telling you something and that's why kelly ward, chairwoman of the republican party and she said it best last week at the rally when she approved, that she was a proud chairwoman of the orange mafia. >> it's sort of like -- like arizona calling, you know a summer too hot. it's hard to sort of put into

context how radical you have to be by someone who was once speaking outside of the republican party, but i want to play some of kari lake. i know you've interviewed her, as well. this is a little bit of her during the debate on january 9th. >> we did not wear masks all of the way into the summer. >> you called joe biden an illegitimate president. >> he lost the election and shouldn't be at the white house. >> i believe begins at conception. >> i don't think abortion pills should be legal. >> not in arizona. >> so, vaughn, talk about her candidacy stands today. >> i think kari lake is a good case study of, you know, the -- i guess the mainstreaming of radicalization here. to catch everybody up on who kari lake is, and just over a decade ago she donated to barack

obama. she was a popular news anchor here and i've had conversations with those closest to her and her life. she's cut off her closest friends from becoming a trump sympathizer to a conspiracy theorist and an acolyte, calling for the jailing of fauci and she calls me a propagandaist, and this is someone who has transformed and radicalized and yet to certify the 2024 election and it's important to note she's running against karen taylor robson who has spent more than $18 million compared to kari lake's $3 million and karen may not win this race. she's brought in the likes of

everyone she can and she could not only be the republican nominee, nicole, but we're looking at the strong reality that she could be the next governor of arizona. donald trump lost the state by 10,000 votes and if kari lake is able to get them to the state, but also win over so many folks like herself who one time considered themselves moderates or even liberals or moderate republicans to come over and embrace her here in the maricopa county suburb areas. you're looking at governor kari lake in 2023. >> now, tim, what is so remarkable is the acceleration of the arizona republican party. those were a part of the state that john mccain carried election after election after election. it's a state i know really well, and it's not about moving to the right. it's about movingnte more conservative. these are views that are pin to

nothing true. >> yeah. kari is just a total phony and she is driving about the base. >> john mccain was a central right republican and he always had to deal with an extreme name by his party. he got censured after he was the republican nominee. they mostly hid hit him over immigration. >> the jan brew err extremist, anti-imgant, in my opinion bigoted by the gop is now getting outflanked and has also embrace the anti-immigrant and about bombing the border and

droning the border was going to be one of her policies that was used with the arizona state surplus, and it's completely nuts stuff. so the wing of the party is gone and eliminated and the question is can kari lake drive it because we're past the levity in the state and can some republicans just compartmentalize like they did with donald trump and go ahead and vote somebody because of hatred of the left, but regardless among leadership class the only people remaining -- >> there isn't remaining in the mccain wing. >> that wing is just gone. >> donna, i want to read what kari lake would do in terms of arizonans vote because this is the part that should flash red for democrats in arizona, but all across the country. kari lake's most dramatic related proposals would regulate

machines that tabulate votes like the dominion systems where more than half of arizona residents live and replace them with people to hand count millions of ballots. in a state that pioneered early voting she would try to terminate voting by mail. a popular method used by most voters who opt for convenience in election state line. she's calling for one day f there are aren't presinks and there are a let of moo, but nothing quite that out there. >> nicole, i'm try to use multiimsyllables and this is just nuts. the idea that the 15th most populous state in the country would have a whole bunch of people sitting in a room hand counting and hand evaluating ballots is just -- in the 21st

century just doesn't even make sense, and so the kinds of extremes that would then be subjects to error to manipulation and to fraud to all of the things that she supposedly says that she doesn't want in an election, but would invite it with these radical ideas and it really is the most extreme and i think to have somebody like her in charge of certifying an election could mean that we would see the beginning of the end of what it means for our democracy. i'm very worried about arizona because there are multiple candidates from the top of the ballot to the bottom of the ballot who are at these extremes and some of them are going to win. >> yeah. vaughn, i'll give you the last word and we cover who's rising and who's, you know, waning in the final days and if people like kari lake win it won't be

about where the energy is, it will be about who does the counting and whose vote count. >> i mean, i was at a rally of hers about a week and a half ago down in tucson and she was propagating the idea that there were dead people voting at the hands of her opponents and when i tried to ask for verification about what the heck she meant there was no clarification. mark fincham said he won't concede his race and they're ready much like donald trump did and ahead of 2020 suggesting that it would be rigged and it's important to note that those three trump-backed candidates, fincham and lake for attorney general they all want to decertify the 2020 election which, of course, you can't do and send the trump slate of electors to washington where i have no idea where it begins now and that is a focus and we can look at the spring legislative

session and i'm standing outside of the state rth you are and it's $100 and go back in 2020 and you'll be the first to cover that. my god, i hope doesn't come to that. tim sticks around. when we come back, the murdoch media empire has had enough with the ex-president's ranting and raving about a rigged and stolen election, but is it too late? another snub from him in what was once a very safe space and the reporter on that beat will be our guest and jon corn inpublicly admitting what veterans have said for days that they postponed medical care, support and money for u.s. veterans and service members because they're mad. mad about something completely unrelated. where that legislation stands at

this hour. midterms are nine days away and matt dowd is out on the front lines with voters and fit down there and how the big lie threatens the fabric of our country and where white can if. it continues right after a quick break. don't go anywhere. nywhere. you get a smile on your plate. only from ihop. download the app and join the rewards program today. i love all types of dancing... salsa, and even belly dancing! i am a triathlete. i've always been into health, and wellness, and fitness... i tried everything with diet and exercise, and nothing worked. there was just kinda this stubborn area on my stomach. but coolsculpting worked for me! coolsculpting targets, freezes and eliminates treated fat for good. no needles, no incisions. discuss coolsculpting with your provider. some common side effects include temporary numbness, discomfort and swelling. you've come this far... coolsculpting takes you further.

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trump's lies and potential criminality may have their limits, you may remember that last month two right-wing newspapers, influ earn on the right and "the new york post" and the wall street journal"

both earned by rupert murdoch bashed the ex-president in op eds in the midst of those january 6th committee's public hearings. they questioned his judgment and his prospects as a future presidential candidate. now fox news the most influential platform in right-wing media, also a murdoch-owned property appear to be over him, not interested him anymore. >> trump hasn't been interviewed on that network in 100 days. fox has largely avoided showing him live and instead has boosted other republicans. new york times reporter jeremy peters that, quote, the murdoch's discomfort with trump stems from his refusal to accept his election loss and that's according to two people familiar with the conversations and is generally in sync with the views of republicans like mitch mcconnell who supported the

former president and condemned his efforts to overturn it. joining us now the author of that piece, jeremy peters and tim miller is still here. jeremy, the titanic is sinking and they're fidgeting with the window lock on one of the sort of cabin windows. does it matter? the entire fox audience is so radicalized they're about to send a lunatic or a top will lunatic to arizona. >> one thing that's important to remember, nicole, this came up in my reporting is that fox is not going to do what its audience wants, and by that i mean they by not showing donald trump understand that their audience will be fine with not seeing donald trump on an endless loop as he was shown for so many years during his white house and his two presidential

campaigns. i don't think that means fox has broken up with trump and he's been complaining about this because they've been putting on ron desantis. ron desantis was on fox interviews twice in less than five days and that kind of stuff drives trump crazy because as much as he may like to pick fights with media, fox included he ultimately needs them and where he prefers to be is at the center of the news cycle and that's not where he is right now. >> you know, jeremy, this is the story of trump's feelings and it's a lot less interesting and it's a story of the radicalization of 30%, 40% of the country. what are the reasons that murdoch is not that into trump these days? >> i think it's for the radicalization that you just outlined there. a big part of the reason the murdochs have moved on from

trump for the moment is that he won't give up the 2020 election, and we know that with most voters, that's a losing proposition, not that trump and republicans haven't done a great job of poisoning the well with disinformation and making biden appear as if he's somehow illegitimate. he's done a great job of his supporters and just look at the poll numbers. we think the election was fair and free last time, but what i think the murdochs are on to is that most swing voters, the vast majority of the swing voters that you have left, and the independents and even many trump supporters, right? don't want to hear him complaining all of the time. they don't want to hear him make this all about him, how he's been robbed and he has to go and

avenge this grave injustice perp etrated. they do tire of hearing his whining and that's what the murdochs have zeroed in on. >> tim, i'm just not buying that there's any sort of motive other than -- i think it benefits trump politically to see less of him. his approval ratings would probably go up and he's not looking his best and sounds pathetic. enthat this hurts him at all. >> yeah, i agree with that. this reminds me last week when i was on and we were talking about pence. murdoch's move reminds me of that. the two of them, if you could snap your fingers and make trump disappear. they're not going to hurt him

politically or have him lose power. not having him on fox isn't hurting him. maybe next year. it's important to remember we lived through this. fox isn't perfect between now and january 6th by any stretch, they didn't go on their, and the pillow guy. >> what happened is people started to dip and and that was powder keg on the social mead whied. you sow that coming out of the network. to me, i feel like we've been through this before and the minute that fox thinks they'll go back in for trump will hurt the ratings and its hard to believe that they won't do again because that's what they've done time and again since 2015. >> it's difficult to process this story next to the images of tucker carlson at the golf

tournament with marjorie taylor greene funded by the saudis. how do we process your reporting next to fox sea biggest star tucker carlson yucking it up with taylor-greene is. >> that's what i said in the very beginning and don't think for one second if fox gets the sense that their viewers want to see more of donald trump or that their viewers are upset that fox isn't showing trump enough that they will not correct. they're a business, right? they're in the business of trying to get as many people to watch that network as possible, but i think, though, it's what tim was just saying about the republicans and conservatives who have a view of donald trump that they are afraid to share in public. that includes tucker carlson, right? we know it's been reported and well do you meaned and maybe it

can't be said enough that he privately disparages trump and he mocked trump behind his back because he knows that trump is wallowing in his own self-pity and that his constant whining about the last election will do him should he become the republican nominee in 2020. tucker carlson, as i reported in my book, nicole, told people he voted for kanye west next tim. >> they're aware of the joke. >> so sick, jeremy peters, tim miller thank you very much for spending time with us. when we come back, protefrting on the steps of the u.s. capitol after veterans were exposed to r burn pits. he sense his veterans affairs

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he's pretending that this is some new thing that the democrats pulled out, stuck into the bill and snuck it past one ted cruz. it's always been mandatory spending so that the government can't just cut off their funding at any point. no trick. no gimmick. there was no reason for them to switch the votes. the bill that passed the senate 84-14 on june 16th has not had one word added to it by democrats or spending fairies or anybody else! >> he's so good. veterans activist comedian jon stewart calling out ted cruz and the other 24 republican senators by refuting their claim that they had any sort of legitimate reason for changing their votes from yes to no and hence blocking the bipartisan life-saving bill for u.s. veterans exposed to burn pit toxins overseas unless, the real

reason they did it political pettiness and resentment over a separate surprise schumer-manchin deal which became public last week which senator john cornyn confirmed in a tweet over the weekend, quote, passage would not have been delayed if senator schumer had kept his promises. the good news is it will pass this next week. chuck schumer says that they'll try another vote early next week as veterans protest on the capitol steps again today where they've camped out every single night since thursday. over the weekend we showed you before we went to the break they got a surprise call and pizza delivery by the president to get this legislation passed. we are joined by the founder of the iraq and afghanistan veteran groups of america. former chief of staff from the department of homeland security. it felt like a weekend of

important political momentum and movement and not just the president's participation have a facetime, but this confession, really, that it was purely politics behind the republican flip-flop. >> yeah. we knew it all along. this has been about politics. it's been about power and it's been about obstructionism and led by one senator that we need to continue to name, pat toomey from pennsylvania, a republican ringleader who has roped a lot of other republicans in on this that are regretting this. this has become a movement and veterans are coming from all over washington, d.c. to join the firewatch right now and they're sleeping on the steps of the senate and this is the cindy sheehan unit when she camped out on president bush's ranch and it's growing and growing. i want to talk about one thing that's important. this is about pat toomey on a very little and shrinking political island. it's not some conspiracy by the democrats, if it was, why did

six republicans also vote for it? republicans like marco rubio, jerry moran, lindsay graham, susan collins and they all voted for it, too, so it's about toomey being petty, being political ask trying to be some kind of folk hero for fiscal conservancy and he's going to blow up anything in his way. >> you know, paul, i -- i worked for president bush and that was an unbelievably powerful protest and an unbelievably powerful message and unbelievably, you know, potent political argument and it does feel like the same thing here. what can you do to make sure that no one forgets that these republicans were for it or they were against it. >> keep calling them out. keep naming it and keep putting the role call and i continue to work out there and keep up the

pressure and chuck schumer said we'll get the vote next week and if you're a republican you have to hate that because we used to say when i led a veterans group the only thing that you can't cross in america are babies, puppies and veterans. they crossed veterans in a big way, the vfc and the american legion and more and more will rise and hit them in the midterms with independent americans and other voters persuadable especially on national security and defense issues. >> i want to bring miles in on what they're thinking, but do i want to get back to the substance against bill. tell me what doesn't get done every day that this bill doesn't pass, paul? >> well, more veterans die. we have millions of veterans who have been exposed to toxins, myself included. you have veterans sleeping on the steps of the senate with oxygen tanks.

you've got people who have lost their family members and lost their children and they're trying to convey that every day we delay more veterans die. i've said this before, senator pat toomey has blood on his hands. that's why you see other republicans running away from it. you don't hear anybody else, but him and ted cruz defendanting this. mitt romney isn't defending this and now it's worse and worse and more veterans are dying and you're hearing their personal stories and maybe that's a bit of a silver lining here is that we can tell everyone our stories and get more support beyond government support because we'll need it at the community level for decades and a generation to in. >> miles, when and where and how did this shift happen in the republican party that crossing our veterans became politically appealing to them? >> o, wow. i'd hate to give it such a finite point in time, but it was during the trump administration. i want to tell the viewers

something here. there is a more insidious agenda behind what pat toomey and ted cruz are doing. they want to blow up veterans affairs and veterans benefits and that's something that was actively discussed during the trump administration and it's really what's at the core of this is they're trying to pretend it's just about spending provisions in general, but what they're worried about is that it will make it harder for them to blow up the department of veterans affairs. >> now, i used to be on the appropriations committee. i'm a recovering appropriator who would take out the red pen and cross outline items on capitol hill to make the budget smaller and be more fiscally conservative. what they're saying about this being a budget gimmick is itself a gimmick, because nicole, what this is really about is if this bill goes into effect it will make it harder to gut veterans'

benefit and these were the terms use during the trump administration and i talked today during the department of veterans affairs who said repeatedly white house staff said the president wanted toy blow up veterans affairs and people on the republican side did as well and they saw the agency in their opinion as bloated and they wanted to take a wrecking ball to it. you're not just talking about reorganizing the bureaucracy and you were talking about people's lives and you're talking about veterans lives and the only thing that held trump back from doing that in the first term was reelection and people around him conceded it, they were worried that if they destroyed veterans benefits, then yes, they wouldn't get reelected and that's what i worry about whether it's a second donald trump term or republican majority, i worry about them going much further than blocking bills like this and actually trying to gut veterans benefits in this country as an excuse for saving money on annual budget

appropriations. >> paul, this is the first that i've understood that this is a sort of out in the open campaign or talk among republicans to decimate the department. the department while flawed, does serve the needs of all of our country's veterans and their families. what is the counter to that? >> this has been a crusade by privatizers for as long as the department of veterans of affairs has existed. the va is the second largest over $300 billion second to the pentagon, and if you don't like government health care, you really don't like va health care because it's the most close thing we have to a national model and it's been that way are if a while. throughout the trump administration you saw so-called fiscal conservatives look for ways to defraud and taking a wrecking ball to the va while it remains high. the va will continue to serve people. we need to continue to support it for proper funding and proper

oversight and recognize that when it comes to politics it's a sacred cow and you cross that issue very, very high political wins. >> paul, we'll stay on this. thank you very much for helping had us understand what's going on. don't go far from the camera this week. miles goes around. ent sentencing for the right-wing extremist who promised to drag nancy pelosi doug the capitol steps and we'll tell you what the judge had to say next. i don't hydrate like everyone else.

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the first january 6th defendant to go to trial was sentenced today to 87 months in prison. that's more than seven years. it is the longest sentence given to an insurrectionist so far. he is a member of the three percenters militia group. he was convicted of five felonies back in march, including carrying a firearm and threatening his teenage son, who turned him in to the fbi. the federal judge condemned reffitt's actions, calling his views absurd, delusional, and way out of the mainstream. joining our conversation, frank figliuzzi, former fbi assistant director for counterintelligence, also an msnbc national security analyst. miles is still with us. frank, your reaction to this sentence today. >> as is often the case in legal matters, it's good news/bad news, nicole. the good news, a really bad

dude, a member, a recruiter of the violent extremist group three percenters who clearly was part of actually facilitating the breaching of the capitol. his defense counsel said, he didn't go in, never hit a cop. he played a crucial role in distracting the police, engaging physically with police while the crowd would go in behind him. that's critical, and i think the judge missed the importance of that. so, that's the good news, 7 1/4 years, the heaviest hit yet of the january 6th defendants. bad news, we are seeing gaps and holes in our legal system, and of course, you know, we've seen many of those, nicole, over the trump administration, and it lives on. what am i talking about? we still don't have a domestic terrorism statute. it's not against the law in this country to be a domestic terrorist, as it is to be an international terrorist, and we're seeing the weakness in the terrorism enhancement. for those trying to follow what the terrorist enhancement is, it started back in the first world

trade center bombing in the parking garage that was unsuccessful, so if you're doing one of 57 enumerated crimes or you're doing something to influence or intimidate or obstruct the government, you might get your sentence enhanced because it looks like terrorism. then, after the oklahoma city federal building bombing, congress said, hey, we should probably also apply this to acts of domestic terror. well, we don't have a domestic terrorism statute. we have a definition, and so the prosecutors tried to do this for the first time, tried to say to the judge, let's do the terrorism enhancement here. let's go for broke. let's go for 15 years, and the judge wasn't buying it, and i have to tell you, it's a controversial attempt, but we're seeing the gaps and the holes here, and unfortunately, it's going to impact prosecutors' ability to plea bargain because they have been holding that out with certain defendants, hey, if you cooperate, we won't use the terrorism enhancement. now, some defendants may say, hey, you can't use the terrorism enhancement because the judge doesn't like it. >> frank, is it that they don't see it as terrorism? i mean, fbi director christopher

wray says that attack, the siege, was criminal behavior, plain and simple, and it's behavior that we at the fbi view as domestic terrorism. ted cruz thinks so too. why was the judge -- is it a legal distinction? why wouldn't a judge see it the way the fbi director and ted cruz did? >> yeah, look, next to domestic terrorism's definition in the law books, we should have a picture of january 6th. it absolutely was meeting the definition. the problem is, when you pull that trigger and when you use it. so why this guy? the judge is saying, what's so different about this defendant, yeah, i got it, he's a three percenter, i got it, yeah, he played a role, but he didn't actually go in. you charged him with destroying federal property so how do we make that distinction and for whom? and the judge has said, it's not this guy. >> miles, what are the prospects of a domestic terrorism law passing? >> really, really bad. and i'm with frank on this.

we need congress to do something here. it's absolutely mission critical. otherwise, you could have someone like this get a lower sentence, but imagine, as frank noted, it was an international terrorist, someone tied to isis or al qaeda, who may get double the sentence. that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. terrorism is terrorism, but republicans have really dug in their heels on this on capitol hill especially in the wake of the trump administration. why? because they've bought into trump's rhetoric that these actual political terrorists are political prisoners. you have sitting members of congress who have defended these people, saying they're patriots and political prisoners. one of the things that was great was the judge was very firm in saying, this man is not a patriot. this man is a criminal. and being very, very clear about that. but it's going to be a tough hill to climb with members of congress to get them to see the

same. so, you know, there needs to be pressure on them to codify a domestic terrorism statute as frank notes. >> miles taylor, thank you. frank sticks around. up next for us, new leaked tapes from a pair of the trumpiest of trump allies discussing, of all things, a trump pardon. why it matters after a quick break. ump pardon why it matters after a quick break. ♪ limu emu ♪ and doug. [power-drill noises] alright, limu, give me a socket wrench, pliers, and a phone open to libertymutual.com they customize your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need... and you could even save $652 when you switch. ok, i need a crowbar. and a blowtorch. [teddy bear squeaks] [doug sighs] limu, call a mechanic. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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♪♪ how strange is it for you to sit here and compare the president to a mob boss? >> very strange. and i don't do it lightly. and i'm not trying to, by that, by the way, suggest that president trump is out breaking legs and shaking down shopkeepers. but instead, what i'm talking about is, that leadership culture constantly comes back to me when i think about my experience with the trump administration. >> give him time. hi again, everyone, it's 5:00 in

the east. we heard it said out loud there by former fbi director jim comey years ago, that the way ex-president trump conducted his administration was akin to the way a mob boss runs his mob organization. that those around him provided unquestioned loyalty, they did whatever the boss wanted, they never, ever flipped. well, newly leaked video and audio obtained exclusively by "the washington post" offers a window into that atmosphere again, showing how those in trumpworld viewed criminality and just how much they relied on the big man to keep them safe at all times. back in october of 2019, trump ally roger stone was about to face trial for the felonies that special counsel robert mueller charged him with. they included lying to congress and witness tampering. at an event, he was complaining to congressman matt gaetz, another trump loyalist, who told stone not to worry about the trial because the boss would likely take care of him. of course, he would. "the post" describes where this sound comes from.

"the 25-minute recording was captured by a microphone stone was wearing on his lapel for a danish film crew which was making a feature-length documentary on the veteran republican operative. the filmmakers allowed "washington post" reporters to review their footage in advance of the release of their film, a storm foretold, which is expected later this year." nbc news has not yet obtained this recording for ourselves nor verified the information. we must note the video appears to be edited as we do not know what takes place before or after these scenes, but take a look and a listen. here's video and audio of congressman matt gaetz and roger stone discussing stone's future. >> i'll go down hard, though. i'll fight it right to the bitter end. >> yeah, but i don't think you're going go down at all at the end of the day. >> well, we'll see. we're three weeks from trial. >> yeah, but -- >> i mean, i may have to appeal to the big man, because i got -- it's the district of columbia.

we surveyed 120 jurors. 90 of them know who i am, and they hate my guts. voluntarily. >> i don't think the big guy can let you go down for this. this is so [ bleep ] up. >> we shall see. you can bet, they already tried that. >> the boss still has a very favorable view of you. >> he sends that message from time to time. >> he said it directly. he knows you're -- >> it would be easy to make this go away, but i couldn't live with myself. >> it would be easy to make this go away, but i couldn't live with myself. wow. that's how they really talk? in a statement to "the washington post," matt gaetz's office said he was not speaking

on trump's behalf during the pardon discussion with stone. however, we know trump did end up commuting roger stone's sentence shortly before he was supposed to report to prison, and at the end of trump's time in office, he ultimately granted stone a pardon. this leaked audio from nearly three years ago is more than just intriguing. it remains extremely relevant, central, frankly, to everything we cover these days. because that same mentality, that same disregard for the rule of law or facing the consequences for breaking the law is not a thing of our country's past. we learned recently from the january 6th select committee, that matt gaetz, who's in trouble for alleged child sex trafficking, was one of at least six trump loyalists in congress who sought pardons for their work in trying to overturn president joe biden's victory in the 2020 election. earlier this year, trump floated the idea that he might pardon january 6th rioters if he ever holds office again. jackie alemany is here, "washington post" congressional

investigations reporter. also joining us, former senator claire mccaskill and former fbi assistant director for counterintelligence, frank figliuzzi, is still with us. i want to play some of the evidence that the 1/6 committee has entered into sort of the public hearing phase when it comes to pardons, and talk about how this matters and why this matters now. this is -- this is eric herschmann, deputy white house counsel. >> and was representative gaetz requesting a pardon? >> i believe so. the general tone was, we may get prosecuted because we were defensive of, you know, the president's positions on these things. >> how do you know that congressman gaetz asked for a pardon? >> he told me. >> tell us about that. >> he told me he'd asked meadows for a pardon. >> mr. gaetz was personally pushing for a pardon, and he was doing so since early december. >> the only reason i know to ask

for a pardon is because you think you've committed a crime. >> frank figliuzzi, how does the pursuit of a pardon, especially the ones that aren't ultimately granted -- what does that mean if you're investigating someone like gaetz, either for alleged child sex trafficking, which is an ongoing federal investigation that we know about, or potentially some of his conduct as it pertains to january 6th, which we have no information that suggests he is under investigation there. >> certain doesn't make things easier for investigators. it's tantamount to obstruction. the problem, of course, is that there are -- the president has the right to pardon people, so it's not like you can actually say, hey, wait a minute, you're obstructing things here. but you know, one of the clips that jumps out at me here is stone saying, you know, about trump, he sends that message occasionally. you know, the message that he

still holds me in good stead, right. so imagine that hanging over the head of people you're investigating. i'm going to get out of this. the boss is going to take care of me. and imagine now matt gaetz thinking, trump might get re-elected, i might get a pardon or commutation if he gets back into office. it totally slows things down, puts brakes on things, but you know, the other takeaways from this is we have a member of the house judiciary committee in gaetz, right, and what are they doing at the very moment he's having this backstage conversation with stone? they are investigating whether trump dangled pardons to stone and others, and what is a member of house judiciary doing? he's talking about pardons with stone, and hey, you know, there might be some mics around so i'm really not going to get into the details about how hard i'm working on your behalf on pardons. where's ethics? where's the ethics committee? where's the chairman on this? what's the accountability going to be for a member of the house judiciary?

>> you know, jackie, i've asked members of the 1/6 select committee if they're interested in knowing if the three trump-pardoned insurrection enthusiasts, steve bannon, mike flynn, and roger stone, if they're interested understanding -- again, a president can pardon whoever they want but if they're interested in understanding the fact pattern leading up to those pardons and if there was anything committed to, either in theory or in spirit, in terms of their role in inciting and participating in the insurrection, and they said, of course we're interested that. but it seems that the pardon testimony has been so pointedly focused on the republican accomplices. cassidy hutchinson testified to a lengthy list of republicans who were interested in pardons. the john eastman public hearings, i think, have that email or perhaps it's your reporting where we saw the email, yeah, get me on the pardon list. i mean, the pardon list. it was something talked about the way you would think a white

house combatting covid would talk about covid or tests or vaccines. the pardon list was something that was so out in the open in the trump inner circle. >> yeah, it was pretty much standard operating procedure for those that were working around the former president and doing his bidding. in fact, my colleagues who broke this story, john and dalton, broke a story earlier this year that actually got roger stone on camera by the same danish film crew pressing trump to preemptively pardon him as well after the january 6th, 2021, attack, and asking for preemptive pardons for himself and also matt gaetz and other allies. i think that why the video version of this is so important, despite seeing countless examples of evidence of people testifying that they had been directly told or asked to be on the pardon list or that people like matt gaetz had already asked mark meadows for it, according to johnny mcentee, the

president's right-hand man during his four years in the white house and on the campaign trail as well, is because it's easier to -- for people who are skeptics, who might have a clouded version of the january 6th select committee, to believe it. it's in matt gaetz's and rger stone's own words asking for it and really illustrating the way that this former president operated. you do something for me, i'll do something for you, and the idea of asking for preemptive pardons became pretty mainstream and standard for the people who were working around the former president and trying to overturn the results of the election, again, suggesting that there was a feeling that what they were doing was criminal. >> it is so reminiscent -- i mean, the only way that us sounds familiar to anything is from mob movies. i want to play a little bit more of it for you, claire.

claire, we are still sort of putting the words to it and getting our ducks in a row. here it is. sorry about that. >> we saw the skinny redaction, and there was, you know, there was a lot on you that was in the full redact that came out in the skinny redact. >> yeah. >> again, like, knows -- >> no, it's -- >> they're going to do you because you're not going to have defense. >> correct. >> because they need a scalp to justify -- >> correct. >> -- [ bleep ]. >> so if i need a pardon, i'm going to be counting on you and dozens of others. >> well, since there are many, many recording devices around right now, i don't feel able to speak freely about the work i've already done on that. >> claire, this was a conversation in midstream.

there were, quote, many recording devices, one thing they get right, so it was a conversation that was ongoing and they commit to picking it up later. >> there's an old saying in prosecution. we cannot let people go just because they're dumb because we'd never fill a jail. there's lots of dumb criminals in jail. these guys are obviously not being very smart, talking about this with an open mic on one of them. you know, what really is funny about this, nicole, is people should imagine for a minute, just imagine in the movie, "the godfather," if you think about that plot and then you give "the godfather" the power to pardon everyone from any criminal liability for anything they did, or al capone. imagine if al capone could have pardoned anyone in his organization for anything they did wrong, and once you saw this

administration, once you saw donald trump go in, reach in to the department of justice and for the first time that i'm aware of say to someone, well, we know you pled guilty, but we're going to forget about that. you can go along. you have a clean record, mike flynn. even though you pled guilty. i mean, that's unheard of. the guy pled guilty with a lawyer, and they still pardoned him and let him go free. so, i think everyone in the trump circle knows there will never be criminal liability as long as trump is sitting in the oval office for anything they do wrong at his bequest. >> well, it is such a good point. and i mean, frank, to listen to them acknowledging, basically, it sounds like one way to understand what they're saying to each other is, mueller's got you. and gaetz says, well, he had to get somebody. it is so much sort of straight talk about their own criminal

exposure, and the only sort of lever they have left to press is the big guy's interest in keeping them all roaming around free. i mean, what is sort of the broader picture in terms of trump's disdain for the rule of law? >> yeah, i mean, to your point, matt gaetz actually says to stone, you don't have a defense. he says, you don't have a defense. and he's saying that, by the way, because he's read -- he's read from the formerly redacted portions of the mueller report that he's not supposed to talk about, and who is he talking about it with? he's talking about it with stone. the larger ramifications here, you know, are hinted at with regard to stone saying, i'm going to be counting on you and about a dozen others, right? a dozen others, really, who are going to lobby the president of the united states on a criminal's behalf and try to get a pardon for themselves and for you, roger. it's a much larger conspiracy

than i think even those of us who followed it every day could have imagined, and it's a mentality that's reflected here. what's the mentality? we're all in this together. you know, the cosa nostra, the italian mafia, translates as, this thing of ours. that's what i keep hearing here. we're all in this together. i've listened to court authorized wiretaps of mobsters talking to each other. sounds like this. there's better food around, but it sounds just like this, and they're part of a criminal enterprise, nicole. it's a criminal organization. they know it. they know they're screwed with regard to legality, and they know the only way out is for the boss to get them out of it. >> you know, jackie, this whole idea of the republicans being part of the conspiracy to overturn the election is, if not central, it is certainly an undercurrent to everything that

we've heard from the witnesses who have testified publicly, cassidy hutchinson and others, who have talked about the 19 republicans who were there, the doj testimony recounted that trump wanted them to say it was corrupt. the republicans would do the rest. is there more to come in terms of what they've gathered on republicans? are there behind-the-scenes negotiations to see if there was an open door among that wall of republicans who have so far obstructed the committee's work? >> it's a good question. it's something we have been asking our sources as the committee has returned to their full-time investigative work in advance of their fall set of hearings, which we are expecting at this point. but what we've heard so far is that there is a feeling that the committee is just going to let the issues with house gop members sort of be relegated to the ethics committee, that there's simply not enough time to continue pursuing all these different threads of the

investigation, that they've already been following for a year now, and that they might potentially re-up some of the subpoenas to these house lawmakers that they've already asked to come in, maybe, just maybe, but highly unlikely, they'll reach out to staffers who might have been affiliated with these efforts as well, but the most likely outcome here, the lawmakers are, again, not going to agree to appear before the committee or cooperate and that it's going to be an issue that's going to have to be resolved via another congressional oversight tool. there is also, i think, a feeling as well that because the department of justice's criminal investigation has now publicly spilled out into the open, that lawmakers who might be potentially in some legal jeopardy here are going to face more severe penalties and are not going to be able to simply ignore subpoenas from the department of justice the way that they have avoided congressional oversight.

>> that's right. jackie alemany, frank figliuzzi, thank you so much for starting us off and kudos to your colleagues, jackie. thank you for spending time to talk to us about it. claire sticks around for the hour. when we come back, abortion is on the ballot tomorrow in the state of kansas, what that vote will tell us about how big a motivating factor abortion rights will be for the democrats 99 days ahead of the midterms. and later in the hour, the debut of "deadline democracy" and how the big lie is on a collision course with the midterm elections with nothing less than democracy at stake. tonight, there will be a special report from new hampshire, a state that prides itself for clean, fair elections, but like so many other places around our country, the big lie has taken hold in a dangerous way there too. and some breaking news. we just learned about this. president joe biden will speak to the nation tonight at 7:30 eastern about what the administration is calling a successful counterterrorism operation against a significant

al qaeda target in afghanistan. we will be watching for any more information that gets out ahead of that address. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. so much news today. don't go anywhere. so much news today don't go anywhere. why the alzheimer's association walk to end alzheimer's is full of them. because flowers find a way to break through. just like we will. join the fight at alz.org/walk for people living with h-i-v, keep being you. and ask your doctor about biktarvy. biktarvy is a complete, one-pill, once-a-day treatment used for h-i-v in certain adults. it's not a cure, but with one small pill, biktarvy fights h-i-v to help you get to and stay undetectable. that's when the amount of virus is so low it cannot be measured by a lab test. research shows people who take h-i-v treatment every day and get to and stay undetectable can no longer transmit h-i-v through sex. serious side effects can occur, including kidney problems and kidney failure. rare, life-threatening side effects include a buildup of lactic acid and liver problems.

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another busy day? of course it is. you're a cio in 2022. but you're covered. with security that protects your company everywhere, on-premise... in the cloud... and right here too. comcast business. powering possibilities. what's at stake here with this amendment? >> abortion care is not accessible for patients unless it's local. we saw that when texas passed its six-week ban. we're trying to really explain to kansans, we have seen what the crisis looks like. we know what patients' faces look like when they realize it's going to be days on the road, a great deal of travel, other obstacles in other states when

you meet with their restrictions, and we're hoping that kansans take steps to avoid that crisis here. >> what do you anticipate will happen if the "yes" vote wins? >> i think we're going to see restrictions very soon. if we lose the constitutional protection in kansas, we know what's coming. we've seen it in missouri right across the state line, and we're going to put patients at risk. >> that was my colleague, nbc's dasha burns, interviewing emily wales, the ceo of planned parenthood of the great plains, laying out for all of us the stakes for women in kansas ahead of tomorrow's vote on a constitutional referendum to permit abortion restrictions in that state. tomorrow's vote not only impacts women in kansas and neighboring states, but it is also the first look at whether voters will be motivated by abortion rights and access to reproductive healthcare 99 days ahead of this year's midterms. the kansas city star is reporting there has been an increase of around 246% in early

person voting compared to the 2018 midterms. we're back with claire mccaskill. claire, first, the tragedy of what these bans will bring for these women. you've been warning us now for years, as long as i've known you, and the possibility of overturning roe, you have been issuing these warnings and as it comes to pass, i always want to talk to you about it. >> yeah. and this -- this is -- it hits close to home, because kansas is close to home. most missouri women are going either to illinois or to kansas because they have no opportunity for -- to terminate a pregnancy safely and legally in the state of missouri now. none. doesn't matter how old they are, what the circumstances are. it's -- and doctors are reacting by not even -- being very careful about even when the mother's life is at stake, making it a gut wrenching situation for women in my state.

kansas is going to be interesting, nicole. we've got a state where there's twice as many registered republicans as democrats. so, the republicans have been very cagey about how they've done this. first of all, they made the ballot language very confusing. it is counterintuitive to vote "no" when you want to support something like the right to safe and legal abortions and reproductive freedom. the second thing they did is put it in the primary election. most democrats don't have primaries in kansas, and nonaffiliated voters, which outnumber the democrats, there are more independent voters than democratic voters in kansas, typically don't vote in the primaries. the primary elections in kansas have been dominated by the republican party participation. that's why they put this election in august rather than november. but then dobbs happened. so, this will be interesting to see if this effort to educate the voters about the very

confusing language and the way it's worded and that it really means that you're opening the floodgates to ridiculous laws like we have in missouri, if that gets through and if people are motivated to show up to vote in an election typically, most of them don't show up for. >> when you look at the numbers of republicans who are uncomfortable with these strict bans, with overturning abortion access even in cases of rape or incest and life of the mother, making it more confusing for doctors to treat an ectopic pregnancy or septic pregnant woman, how is that playing out in states like kansas? >> well, it's interesting. johnson county, kansas, is the most populated county in kansas. it is right on the border of the state line, and it is largely college-educated, what i would call, moderate, old-time, back when nicole wallace was a republican and george bush was

president, that is -- those are those kinds of voters. it has now been -- it has a democratic congresswoman. it's had a democratic congressman in the past. i think it has been very anti-trump, that particular county, so i'm going to really look at what happens in johnson county, kansas. i think republicans are so -- they're so tuning out moderate voices on this issue and tuning in extreme voices because they're the loudest within their party. but i think politically, they may be making a real mistake, because a lot of these candidates across the country are being so extreme on abortion that it's turning off -- they may not be saying this to pollsters, but i guarantee you there's a lot of women in my state that, when they -- i realize that the woman they're being asked to vote for wants to make it illegal for them to travel to kansas or illinois with their daughter who's been

raped, i think they will vote against those people. so, we'll see how this turns out. we've all said it. the dog has caught the car now. now we're going to see whether or not the dog gets run over or whether it just gets beat up a little bit. >> it's -- i've said this already in the course of the last hour and a half. it is some sick stuff to be so against access to healthcare for the most vulnerable. claire mccaskill, thank you so much for spending time with us. when we come back, the debut of our special series, "deadline democracy." we'll have a report from new hampshire, a state that is at war with itself, torn apart by election doubters and deniers as officials look to combat the big lie with just 99 days to go before the midterms. don't go anywhere. s to go before the midterms. don't go anywhere.

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that's a whole lot of happy campers out there. and it's never too late to join them. get unlimited data with 5g included for just $30 a line per month when you get 4 lines. switch to xfinity mobile today. today, we are less than 100 days out from election day 2022, and we're so excited to bring you the first installment of a new series we're rolling out for the upcoming midterm election season. we're calling it "deadline: democracy." ing the it will be an ongoing series of reports. to kick things off, we sent our friend, matthew dowd, to new hampshire, a state likely to become a political canary in the coal mine to talk with voters who are at war with one another

over access to the polls, election integrity, and donald trump's big lie, which is why matt dowd headed to manchester to the red arrow diner, sacred ground in new hampshire. while he was there, he spoke with a politics professor at a college, and kevin of the new hampshire union leader, one of the deans of new hampshire politics. matt also spoke with local voters who wanted to voice their concerns about what is playing out on the political stage in their state. we're going to play some of what matt learned and what they discussed and then we'll talk to matthew dowd and our friend cornell belcher on the other side. watch. >> i never seen it like this. i mean, i've never seen this phenomenon, which is, you know, both presidents so disliked and for biden, the problem, obviously, is trump's not on the ballot. biden's not on the ballot, but voters who are agitated, upset, like to send messages, and for a sitting president, in a midterm election, that can be bad news.

>> but now he says there's an existential threat looming as well. >> we're seeing a phenomenon we haven't seen before, which is a real distrust in the accuracy of elections. that's never been a problem here in new hampshire, right? i mean, people have always -- clean elections, fair elections. and now rooms are full of people basically saying, it's rigged. >> there are lots of folks in this state who are convinced that the voting machines are, you know, rigged and that hinky stuff goes on in elections when votes are being counted and all the rest of it so you have two groups talking past each other. >> so you have independent voters who are going to make the decision in new hampshire, which is, which argument, which version of reality do i agree with more than the other? and right now, the jury's still out. >> and it's that sense of two competing realities in new hampshire that has voters here worried. >> i don't know how the people can -- voters can come together when they fundamentally disagree on reality.

>> reporter: yeah. >> it's -- i'm really terrified about that. i think it's -- it's broken. >> reporter: what's your sense about where we are today as a country or where the health of our democracy is? >> i think it's breaking down, honestly. for me, i just feel like i'm even more concerned now than i was four years ago at the last election. i feel like every election is important. this one just is rising to a new level. we're going to have ups and downs in the economy, and i can deal with that. but these other issues that are long-term, looking at the supreme court and decisions that are coming down and just thinking about what the future is going to be for my children and my grandchildren. >> reporter: do you think the problem exists even if trump was removed? >> yes. because i think, over time, he's been able to influence so many people, and he still is doing that, and i just don't understand how people can keep

listening to the lies. >> are you concerned, like, about the state of democracy in the country? >> i wasn't until trump started to fight the results of the election. my grandfather came over from lebanon, and he's the one that gave me an appreciation for the country. so, yeah, i take it seriously. i've always taken it seriously, and it bugs the hell out of me to see what's going on. >> joining us now, matt dowd, political strategy jest strateg jest. matt dowd, tell me more about what you found. >> i think it's a fascinating start with new hampshire as you led into this piece because one, we're going to know on election night, one of the first things we'll learn is on election night, where this is headed.

two, it has two swings, house races. it has a swing senate race. let me give you an example of that. the u.s. senator, maggie hassan, won the last election, her first election six years ago, by 1,000 votes, 0.1%. the house race, one of the swing house races voted twice for george w. bush, voted twice for obama, voted for donald trump and then voted for joe biden in this. so as we've talked before, it's this group of voters who don't like donald trump, who are unsatisfied with joe biden, who are going to decide this election at this point in time. right now, because of what's happened over the last three or four months, they're leaning in the democrats' direction, and primarily because of three things, nicole. we've talked about it before. guns. and you just had a previous segment on roe vs. wade and what's happening on that. but the january 6th commission has had an impact on a lot of people because it's highlighted the destructiveness of what's gone on, the lie, how it's taken hold, and in a place like new

hampshire, which has prided itself on clean elections, which from all data has shown it's clean elections, people have heard it so much, republicans, it has now impacted their view of whether or not elections can be trusted. >> matt, cornell, i'm going to ask you guys to stick around for one second. we have some information on that breaking news we told you about. president joe biden will address the nation at 7:30 p.m. about a successful counterintelligence operation. they captured the top al qaeda leader, al-zawahiri. monica, what do we know? >> reporter: nicole, this is breaking just in the last couple of minutes, reporting by my colleagues, kristen welker and ken dilanian and we can confirm president biden is going to address the nation and talk about a successful counterterrorism operation that took place over the weekend in afghanistan that resulted in the death of top al qaeda leader,

al-zawahiri. this news was first reported by the a.p. we were just able to confirm it. what's significant here is that, of course, with these very high level counterterrorism-type raids, there is no information, obviously, that comes out ahead of time, only once everything has been completed. notably, a senior administration official is telling us that this did occur over the weekend. it was successful, and there were no civilian casualties. so we're going to learn a lot more, but of course, the backdrop to all of this, this is a president of the united states who's going to talk about this achievement from a national security perspective while he's still testing positive for covid. he had that so-called rebound case over the weekend, so he is going to be delivering these remarks tonight at 7:30 p.m. from the blue room balcony with a very small group of staff and some reporters who will be present, and of course, a camera to capture that speech. but they will be safely distanced, i'm told by the white house. that's just something else

adding to this. there was nothing on the president's schedule all day today, which did raise some eyebrows. he also didn't have events over the weekend, but again, that's because he is on day three of his isolation after that rebound case, so we'll bring you a lot more information as we know it, but this is a white house that, of course, did not tip off or give any information that this was coming. we had a hint that maybe some news was coming tonight, because they didn't clear reporters even though, again, the president didn't have anything on his schedule, and now, we know the reason why. of course, again, repeating this huge news that the white house and the president will be speaking to tonight in a successful counterterrorism raid that took place over the weekend in afghanistan, resulting in the death of al-zawahiri, who, of course, succeeded osama bin laden leading al qaeda in 2011 when osama bin laden was killed in that raid. >> monica, it seems equally important that this president

made this promise after a much criticized withdrawal from afghanistan, that he would pursue all threats to u.s. national security. this -- the killing of al-zawahiri is as significant today as any al qaeda leader, frankly, as bin laden was at the time, and again, proving that what he committed to doing after withdrawing from afghanistan is a promise made and a promise kept. >> reporter: and it's august 1st. we are now, of course, nearing the one-year anniversary of those american soldiers who were killed in afghanistan during that chaotic exit during the withdrawal and of course, that weeks-long saga and evacuation where absolutely president biden repeatedly defended his decision to withdraw the u.s. from its longest war to date and had, of course, needed to defend that several times when he was faced with criticism over how the

evacuation itself was handled. but the white house is looking at how to potentially honor, commemorate, talk about that event. we know that would come in the next couple of weeks so you're absolutely correct to say that tonight, i believe the president will touch on that as we think about where we were when it comes to afghanistan a year ago and those promises that the president made, specifically when it comes to saying that what would you have me do? he would always say, would you want me to send more sons and daughters to fight in that war? he wanted to bring people home. and he wanted to, of course, commit to, then, eradicating other potential terrorist threats, and i think we can expect him to touch on that tonight in this speech. >> monica, are we expecting any back briefings? i know sometimes those are off the record, but do we expect to hear from any of his national security officials leading into the address to the nation before or after? >> we do. at around 6:00 p.m. so just in a little bit here, i think we'll get a lot more

information from senior administration officials who are going to walk reporters through how this counterterrorism operation came together, provide all of the details, and then we'll hear from the president directly, so we should have a lot of the more -- of details and behind the scenes. again, this is something that we see white houses and presidents come out and talk about, but with the utmost secrecy, having to be so careful with how delicate it is until they can report on it, and what strikes me is that this weekend, when a president would typically be monitoring this, let's say, from the situation room, maybe from camp david if that's where he was, this was obviously a very different situation for him, given he was isolating. he hasn't been around anybody physically, except for a very limited number of staff in the white house residence for the last three days because of this rebound case, and they had to really scuttle a lot of additional travel the president had hoped to have this week, so that's just one added element, and we also did learn earlier today, he has some very minor,

lingering symptoms, the white house clarified, nothing new, and they continue to say he feels quite well, well enough to work eight-hour days for the last few days, again, from the white house residence, and not the oval office, though, given this information about this counterterrorism operation, i think it's safe to assume they were probably longer than eight-hour days as all of that was coming together and as the president clearly authorized and then saw this take place in the last 48 hours or so. >> let me add to our coverage, nbc news white house chief correspondent, kristen welker. you broke this story. the president will address the nation at 7:30 to announce the killing of the most significant al qaeda leader since the successful raid that killed bin laden. talk about how this came to be, the president's role in this, and its significance. we were talking about this as a promise this president made a year ago when u.s. forces withdrew from afghanistan.

there was a commitment that counterterrorism operations would continue, that u.s. national security would be protected by precisely the kind of strike that appears to have taken out someone who has been sought since the attacks of 9/11. he helped orchestrate the attacks with bin laden. i can't find the name of what -- i don't know if he was bin laden's assistant or right-hand man or what the intelligence community refers to him as, but al-zawahiri has been pursued since those attacks. >> you're absolutely right, nicole, and you set it up so well. we've been able to confirm this based on sources familiar with the matter, myself and my colleague, ken dilanian, and what is significant about this is that he was really considered to be the ideological leader of al qaeda during the era of osama bin laden, and in some cases, he was considered to be more instrumental in the planning of the september 11th attacks than

almost any other member of al qaeda at the time, and so this is someone who has been on the radar of the u.s. national intelligence for decades, and the fact that now the president is going to come out and announce this, and as you say, nicole, the backdrop to this, the fact that president biden, in the wake of that really botched wall from afghanistan that was so widely criticized, continued to stay on this piece of -- the counterterrorism piece of it, that that was a promise that he made at the time. he will, i would anticipate, speak to that, speak to the importance of that, and speak to the fact that this now becomes yet a new chapter in the wake of the war in afghanistan. and they have continued to track these people who were responsible for the planning of september 11th, and then responsible for carrying out the vision of osama bin laden in the wake of his death, nicole, and i think that's a significant piece of it as well. there was so much debate at the

time about what, if any, role al-zawahiri would play and how instrumental he would be as a leader. would he be as forceful of a leader as osama bin laden was? all of that will be left to historians. but the fact that the president is going to come out and announce this is undoubtedly going to be a significant moment in his presidency. it does come against the backdrop, as monica just laid out so well, of this president who was recovering from covid and then he had that rebound case. we did learn that he had a few lingering symptoms today, but again, clearly, this is something that he has been working on behind the scenes as he has also continued his recovery, as he has continued to work on things that are unfolding on the domestic stage also dealing with this significant development on the world stage, nicole. >> he would be the one, two, fourth president to pursue al-zawahiri, and i want to read something that the "new york times" is reporting about where

he was killed. according to an american analyst, the house that was struck was owned by a top aide to a senior official in the taliban government whom american officials say is close to senior al qaeda figures. it didn't take long. i don't know that it ever abated, but clearly the taliban is still very much in bed with al qaeda, based on where this al qaeda leader, notorious al qaeda leader, as you said, kristen welker, the ideological leader of al qaeda, was hiding in a taliban government official's home. >> and i think that when you compare -- i mean, that new reporting by "the new york times" makes me think about the operation to kill osama bin laden, and the fact that that was such a complicated effort to pull off, and you remember that now historic moment in the situation room where you had former president barack obama, then secretary of state hillary clinton, watching this unfold in

realtime, and this moment-by-moment cliff hanger to see how this would all unfold to find him, where he was hiding out. and they were able to kill osama bin laden. and that new "the new york times," i think, speaks to what could potentially be a different experience. again, we're going get more details when the administration holds a background briefing with reporter at the top of the hour. but that's one of the things we're looking for. what are the specific details, how complicated was this effort to carry out. and the fact the white house is making it very clear, they say no civilians were killed. those are the type of details that we'll continue to report out in the coming days. what, if any, damage was done on the ground? what was the fallout. but again, a significant development, nicole. >> for any of our viewers who were just joining us, kristen

well kerr has broke ton story about president joe biden's address to the nation at 7:30 this evening, and news emerged ahead of that address to the nation that the u.s. government -- and it's important. as kristen says, facts are still just beginning to become public. these are the most secret, most confidential missions that any government partakes in, but the target was the top living al qaeda lead intercontinental since 9/11, he has been the most pursued terrorist the world over. he was in the home, according to "the new york times," of a taliban government official. this is interesting, kristen welker. the strike was not conducted by the military, suggesting it was carried out by the cia. agency officials declined to comment. that may continue to be the posture from the cia. but again, this was the policy shift that joe biden's administration ushered in last

summer. this was the commitment that our national security would be protected instead of, in his words our sons and daughters but by our intelligence agencies. i believe we have former cia director john brennan joining us by phone. director brennan, we're just putting the pieces together in terms of what is coming public, but your reaction to what we understand to be a cia operation to kill the world's top al qaeda terrorist, and a successful one at that? >> i'll leave it to president biden to share the details about the strike against a senior terrorist leader. ifs after al zawahiri it decapitates again al qaeda's leadership. after the successful mission that killed bin laden in 2011, he's been at the helm of al

qaeda. al qaeda is still a rather potent terrorist operation. it has been crippled because of the counterterrorism operations, but getting zawahiri is a big deal and sends a clear signal to al qaeda, we're not going to relent until we take apart this organization until it doesn't present a threat to u.s. person as well as others around the globe. >> it seems like an important accomplishment for not just the fight against terrorism, but for this president's national security policy, his counterterror policy, particularly in the wake of our withdrawal from afghanistan a year ago. kristen welker is reporting that he was in many ways the ideological leader alongside bin laden in the planning of the 9/11 attacks. just remind some of us who may have forgotten his role in the significant of, as you said, if the president does confirm that

is who this strike killed, his importance and the importance of taking him off the stage. >> welsh he's an egyptian by birth, a doctor by professional training. he was a member of the egyptian islamic jihad, in fact, a founding member, who was detained and arrested in egypt for -- in the aftermath for the assassination of anwar sadat in the early '80s. in fact, the egyptian islamic jihad which he headed merged with al qaeda in the late 1990s. so as you said, he had brought with him a fair amount of expertise, credentials from the standpoint of extremist and terrorist circles, and was able to attract a number of individuals into al qaeda and was a, you know, ideological,

spiritual kind of leader of al qaeda. he along with al qaeda went to ground after 9/11, but he was one of the masterminds of not just 9/11 but other terrorist attack as well. he had a lot of support and respect within the organization, but he has had a lot of blood on his hands over the years. he is somebody that the u.s. intelligence community has been tracking for decades, and again, if he was killed in a strike, it shows that this very tedious work that is being done by the women and men of the u.s. intelligence community has come to fruition here. i think it sends a strong signal that you will be able to run and hide but not able to escape the long arm of u.s. justice. >> director, brennan, what does it say he was hiding in what "the times" are reporting is a taliban government official's house in afghanistan? >> well, if that is the case, i

think i think shows those -- seems to still exist, and now that the taliban is in power in afghanistan, there are extremist elements of the organization that are ready, willing, and able the provide support to individuals like zawahiri and others. this is something i think the u.s. intelligence and defense communities need to continue to focus on, which is not allowing afghanistan to once again become a wellspring for terrorist activity around the globe. if he did return to afghanistan and kabul, it shows that he not only has the support, but there is active efforts under way within the taliban to allow al qaeda to once again have a presence in afghanistan that

could give berth to a terrorist capability that could be used far outside of afghanistan's borders. >> director brennan, does that necessitate a conversation about our -- i'm not suggesting we return to a war footing with afghanistan, but does that usher in a conversation about how we deal with afghanistan that's harboring the likes of al zawahiri. >> i think president biden and others have said that although we don't have that ongoing military presence in afghanistan, we need to have the capabilities in the theater that are able to take appropriate actions when we need to, and whether it's to take a strike against a terrorist leader or prevent terrorist attacks, this is what i know this administration, and professionals at cia and the pentagon are doing, is to make

sure they have those plans in place as well as capabilities at the ready, that they can tap it when there are opportunities like this that they need to act upon, and so again, i'm very pleased to see that despite the fact that we no longer have this presence in afghanistan, that the u.s. counterterrorism community was able to, first of all, get the intelligence, and secondly act upon it while it was still fresh so they could have a very successful counterterrorism operation. >> i want to add one more voice to our coverage, the new yorker's david rode, who was kidnapped by al qaeda. your reaction to this breaking news? >> i would agree it's a great achievement by american intelligence officials to extract him and carry out this strike, but i'm deeply concerned by this report that ayman al

zawahiri, responsible for 9/11, was living in the house of a taliban official in kabul. there's been central questions of, would the taliban allow afghanistan to be used by foreign terrorists? would they shelter al qaeda members again? alarming to hear he was in a government official's house. to be fair to the taliban, there's many different taliban factions, but again, it's very concerning. the even one taliban faction was sheltering him, that's a very dangerous thing in the long-term -- and again i want to emphasize, in the long-term -- for u.s. national security. >> david, obviously, this is the work of the u.s. intelligence community women last turned to you during the military exit from afghanistan one year ago. and the reporting of monica albin, kristen welker and my

colleagues we've noted this is a remarkable anniversary on which joe biden tonight will deliver remarks to the nation. he's still recovering from covid himself, but the u.s. government has, based on reporting from our news organization and "the new york times" and others, successfully killed the top al qaeda leader, al zawahiri. director brennan, david rode, thank you for being part of our breaking news coverage. it takes a village when something like this happens. thank you to everyone who jump on the air tom matthew dowd and cornell welcher, to be continued. our breaking news coverage now continues right now on "the beat" with ari melber. hi, ari. >> hi, nicole. thank you very much. welcome to "the beat." i am ari melber. we have several stories, but we begin with continuing coverage of this breaking news. united states reporting on this strike killing al qaeda terrorist leader