>> hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in washington. i'm michael steele in for my friend, nicole wallace. we have a whole lot of news today on the january 6th front including brand-new reporting on efforts to keep the big lie a lie to by the architect to get mike pence to overturn the results on january 6th. "the new york times" reports

that john eastman continued his hunt for widespread voter fraud even after president biden was inaugurated. hours after president biden's inauguration, mr. eastman emailed rudy giuliani, donald j. trump's personal lawyer propose that they challenge in georgia for two senate seats that were won by democrats. according to the times eastman hoped that by trying to overturn another election and finding fraud in that race he would find proof that the 2020 election was stolen, but as we all know, was there no fraud. the election wasn't stolen and the big lie is still just that, a lie. the times also reports that eastman charged the trump campaign $270,000 and no surprise, given trump's long history of not paying his bills, it looks like trump never paid

him. by the time mr. biden became president mr. eastman tried to be paid directly although two people with knowledge of the campaign's finances said he never was. john eastman has been under a lot of scrutiny from the justice department back in june. federal agents seized eastman's phone and now there's reporting that suggests that doj is looking for the testimony of officials who pushed back on eastman's plan to overturn the election. we reported yesterday that former white house counsel pat cipollone has been subpoenaed. now according to multiple reports, deputy pat philbin has also been called to testify before a washington, d.c., grand jury. both men were in the white house on january 6th and pushed back against some of the most extreme ideas peddled by trump's allies. joining us now, new york times congressional reporter luke broadwater and also harry littman, former deputy attorney general and former u.s. attorney

and host of the talking heads podcast and msnbc contributor, my friend, charlie sykes, editor-at-large at the bulwark. charlie, let's start with you. i read the email between eastman and giuliani. a lot of us have now staked our reputations on the claims of election fraud and this would be a way of -- to gather proof if we could get proof of fraud on january 5th. it would likely also demonstrate the fraud on november 3rd, thereby vindicating president biden's claims and serving as a strong bulwark against senate impeachment trial. a, what does this tell us and b, isn't this still all about sort of validating donald trump's made-up claim that there was fraud? >> yes. absolutely. i think this email reveals quite a few things. one, that even as president biden was being inaugurated that

day that john eastman and allies of donald trump were still pushing for the election results and i think it shows a few other things. one, it's an implicit acknowledgement. they had not found the fraud that they had claimed that they had promoted to state legislators and to the public that he's saying here, basically, we didn't find the fraud, but we fromissed everyone and we have to keep searching to vindicate ourselves and we staked our reputation on these fall claimses and now we have to find them. two, he wants to overturn senate elections in georgia and then ultimately, i think the invoice that was attached to this email reveals the fact that john eastman was trying to make $270,000 off of two weeks of work and he charged $10,000 a day in january for his legal work including for the meetings where he met with vice president mike pence and mike pence's top

lawyer and tried to convince them to overturn the election. so there's a lot going on with this e mail, but i think it's quite revealing in a number of ways. >> harry, turning to you this wasn't the first time that we heard john eastman was still trying to overturn the election from the 6th. here's testimony from eric herschmann to the january 6th committee about a phone call he had with eastman on the 7th. >> the day after, eastman -- i don't remember why he called me -- or he texted me or called me and wanted to talk to me, and he said he couldn't reach others, and he started to ask me about something dealing with georgia and preserving something potentially for appeal and i said to him, are you out of your f-ing mind?

right. i said i only want to hear two words coming out of your mouth from now on, orderly transition. i don't want to hear any other f-ing words coming out of your mouth no matter what other than orderly transition. repeat those words to me, and -- >> what did he say? >> eventually he said orderly transition. i said good, john, now i'll give you the free best legal advice you're ever getting in your life, get a great f-ing criminal defense lawyer. you're going to need it, and then i hung up on him. >> so it looks like after everything that happened on the 6th, you have eastman here still wanting to keep trying and pushing for a coup even though he was warned that he was about to do a pushing into something that could be illegal. what are we to make of this now that we know more about those moments? >> yeah. i'm pushing for a pay day. herschmann's content really

shines through there, right? he basically takes down his pants and spanks him. [ laughter ] there is this never say die buffoonery about eastman, but remember the fights and the squabbles with trump eastman prevails. so this is the guy, this pretty patent buffoon, i think is a fair word, who, in fact, got the president and directed the legal strategy that was, you know, what the white house was actually executing. so on the one hand he seems ridiculous and mercenary like all good trumpists, but on the other, remember, he actually effectuated what trump was doing. he listened to him and jewelliany as we see on the screen and not the more sober team normal that was saying this guy is f-ing nuts. >> so, harry, is it safe to say at this point that the doj will

look at these emails and will want to the look at this and pull this information into a broader case? >> 100%. eastman and clark they're going after and that specifically goes to this crazy january 6th plan to just delay things, so without a doubt because it builds on what they're already doing and they will jump on it. >> so, charlie, help put all of this in perspective for us. you have john eastman wasn't the only one looking for fraud after joe biden was inaugurated and arizona had a very expensive audit and a bunch of other states had investigations, as well. so in the main, many people are doing whatever they can to keep trump's big lie going. >> why was that? were they just so beholden to the idea that trump says there was fraud there must have been fraud?

what's going on here? >> well, the big picture is that it's august 2022 and donald trump is still trying to overturn the election. i mean, he's coming here to wisconsin tomorrow, and he is putting pressure on state officials to de-certify the election and this is a year and a half later. john eastman is an interesting character and you have the nexus between being a fanatic and a complete grifter and i know we're talking about seditious attempt to overthrow the government. john eastman believes he should be paid $270,000 for what he was doing for peddling this weapons-grade nuttery. that's number one. he got stiffed by donald trump which is kind of classic and behind all of this, can we just remind ourselves of the number of grand mras and blue collar

workers around the country who sent in $2 because they thought they were going to fight election fraud and none of that money was spent on this. so you have this massive fraud linked to this grift and then characters like john eastman who was not only unhinged, but profoundly greedy and not well informed about donald trump's habit of paying legal bills. >> dude, if i could have gotten those rates when i was a partner -- yeah, okay. so, luke, let's switch gears a little bit and take a look at another witness being called in by the justice department. you have pat philbin here. talk us to about what he knows about the january 6th committee. >> pat philbin would have access to the same information that pat cipollone had. the key difference here between them is we've heard from pat cipollone, at least portions of

his testimony played publicly via video from the january 6th committee. the committee has not heard from him so we don't know his unique take on things or what he might have had access to that mr. soapy didn't. they were at the hip and in agreement with most of the actions within the trump white house. the two of them often pushed back on ideas from john eastman and sydney powell like seizing voting machines and the idea of sending a false letter to georgia from the justice department or even meddling in the justice department. both of them spoke out against those plans from the team crazy, as it's been called, but yes. i do think that the two of them going in potentially opens up a new chapter in the justice department's investigation, in terms of how high it's going within the trump white house. >> so harry, given what luke

just laid out about pat philbin, we didn't hear from pat during the january 6th hearings, but he was mentioned a few times. let's listen to a bit of that testimony. >> when did you first realize that there was actually violence? >> i -- i first realized it may have been on television or it may have been tony or it may have been philbin. pat philbin, you know, was very -- as i said, i don't think there was one of these meetings -- there might have been, but for the most part i remember going down together, going back and getting on phone calls and he was also very clearly expressing this view. >> when you talk about others on the staff thinking more should be done or thinking that the president needed to tell people to go home who would you put in that category?

>> well, i would put pat philbin, eric herschmann, overall mark meadows, ivanka. once jared got there, jared. general kellogg. >> so there we have pat cipollone basically saying that his deputy, pat philbin was there in the meetings that he attended, and he was sharing the same views as cipollone. so what does pat philbin bring to the table as a witness at this point? >> a lot. he's a very important and underlooked player here. he's the smartest and the most experienced lawyer on the white house counsel's office. remember the episode in doj many moons ago where there's the showdown at the hospital bed with ashkroft and gonzalez and comey that pat philbin figures

in that and on the good guy side, and he did represent trump in the impeachment, but his reputation for being a sort of straightshooter, institutionalist, really smart guy is huge in washington. so he, among other things, i'm not saying cipollone would be inclined to get squirrely, but he keeps him on the straight and narrow, but anybody knows if he answers the questions and i think he will and that's a whole other topic, he's going to be straight up and he's not going to spare any words about trump's illegality. so he really bolsters cipollone in an important way, and you're right. they're there for everything. this is the sort of modern-day equivalent of the white house tapes and everything that's important and cipollone heard, philbin heard and from what we can surprise based on what we heard to date, they could bury the former president. >> i want to stay with you for a moment because politico has

great reporting on where the doj probe is headed and how the executive privilege claims could possibly go. >> donald trump's camp has yet to say whether he'll disrupt the justice department's grand jury investigation into attempts to overturn the 2020 election, but if he does, it could be a very short fight. a series of court rulings to stymie the house january 6th select committee investigating the january 6, 2021 attack on the capitol sharply rejected trump's bid to wield the power as a former president. we know, folks, that a few of the january 6th committee witnesses had negotiated their terms of testimony when it came to trump, but what do you think should the doj go to court? should they go there to fight these privileged claims? how do you think that's going to play out? >> yeah. if they're forced, they will, and there may be a kind of

two-step dance where cipollone and philbin want to get the order from the court, but are ready to cooperate if they do, or it could be if they try to fight it tooth and nail and politico's absolutely right and there's previous d.c. circuit case law and that's the circuit here that came up in the clinton era when the deputy white house counsel was forced to testify because what the court said was this is not some separation of power and this is the executive branch wanting to find out about criminal behavior within the executive branch. forget it. everything yields he's got to give it up and it will be conclusive in favor of the department if they have to fight and the only issue is whether it could be strung along, long enough to become a bit of a factor as we push not just to the 2022, but to 2024. >> so, luke, given what harry just said, what does your

reporting say about the doj investigations and whether it's gearing up to fight any privilege claims at all. >> people have been critical of merrick garland saying he's movinging to slowly. it's been slow, but methodical and i've spoken to a couple of police officers in the hallpay and told them he would leave no stone unearned and they will do a complete investigations. again, it may not be the pace that many people want on capitol hill, but you can see it happening. you can see the subpoenas going out. you can see new witnesses being called in by the week, and so eventually i do think we are going to keep building all of the way up and we will finally get some answers here from the justice department. >> charlie, finally to you. talk to me about the importance

of the doj doing whatever it takes to investigate because there are some very, very big stakes here. >> no, i mean, this will be the most important decision that merrick garland has made and maybe the most consequential decision by the department of justice in decades and we should be under no illusions that it will be politically incendiary and it will be very, very divisive. on the other hand, what the department of justice has to keep in mind is the precedent set by not taking action because that will eventually concede that the former president, current president and maybe future president is above the law, and they cannot have that. as i've said, there will be a tremendous political blowback in charging the former president. we know that, and i figure what i'm recommending is that the attorney general understand that whatever he does, if he goes small or he goes big there will

still be the same lack of proportionality and he might as well go big and make the strongest possible case, but the other thing, listening to this fascinating conversation, it is always interesting to get in donald trump's mind and donald trump believes very firmly that he can obstruct justice and that he can cover up his crimes and now what we're seeing is how this investigation and this grand jury is moving into his inner circle putting some of his key aides under oath in a federal court, and therefore, it's going to be much harder for him to pull that off, and i think that that's got to be changing the mood within magaland and he believes that they can intimidate prosecutors as they have in the bay, and

everexert prifl edges so we know what happened. if luke is right and the department of justice is doing's are a methodical investigations, that won't work this pipe. >> luke broadwater, thank you very much. charlie sykes will stick around for a bit. when we come back we're learning more about what was on alex jones' phones that now also happens to be in the hands of opposing counsel in his defamation trial. that lawyer telling court he's received multiple law enforcement requests from the same phone including from the january 6th committee and he can hand it all over to them immediately. plus president joe biden today calling the nine-year prison sentence for wnba star brittney griner unacceptable and pledging to do whatever it takes to get her home. we'll talk about the complications of negotiating with russia, and later in the

show republicans in texas for their annual conservative conference, cpac, the lead are of hungary speaking to the hard-right group of conservatives. what could possibly go wrong? all of those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after this so don't go anywhere. continues after this so don't go anywhere re about an aarp medicare supplement insurance plan from unitedhealthcare and get help protecting yourself from the out-of-pocket costs medicare doesn't pay. because the time to prepare is before you go on medicare. don't wait. get started today. call unitedhealthcare for your free decision guide.

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would be a different story. they know about them. they know they exist. they know you have them and they're going there either way. >> a pretty big revelation there from the attorney for the parents of the sandy hook victim telling the judge that the january 6th committee has requested a coppen of the cell phone records of conspiracy theorist alex jones. records, he says were sense to him by mistake from jones' attorney. it's raising new questions about what those two years' worth of records could show about what alex jones knew about january 6th months after he met with the committee under subpoena over his efforts to spread election lies which jones had said he pleaded the 5th almost 100 times. here's what that lawyer told nbc news about the january 6th request and jones' failed attempt for mistrial today. >> what is interesting to me that suddenly early this morning i guess after they went home and reviewed what was in that phone they decided to file an emergency motion and that sought

to prevent me from turning those messages over to the january 6th committee. i will tell you and the world right now that i've only had the phone free and clear for a matter of 48 hours. 2.3 gigs on it. i don't know fully what's on it. i don't know if mr. jones has reason to be alarmed. >> joining us now, nick, new york times investigative reporter and also msnbc political analyst and katy phang is here. the lawyer suing jones fully expect to cooperate with law enforcement officials interested in seeing these, mails and the materials on them. what's the legal process for the january 6th committee to get their hands on those records? >> yes so, michael, you will see a subpoena that will come from the 1/6 committee, and there will be a bummer for people to

hear and it will allow to assert objections over what he deems to be materials that are contained within that cell phone going as far back as two years that he thinks should not be turned over. what's problematic is this idea that it's almost like these materials were abandoned. it's the idea if you, michael, were to put something incriminating in the garbage and leave it out in the street and got it picked up by somebody and it's now in the possession of a third party. alex jones' lawyer turned over the material and he is filing that it should have been turned back over to him, him being alex jones' attorney. at the end of the day the court has aren't ruled on it and there will be an opportunity for jones to object, but what's really concerning michael is if i'm alex jones, i'm going to be worried about the perjury police as well as the 1/6 committee. so you have the specter of the 1/6 committee coming after you and that you asserted the

fifth 100 times and alex jones repeatedly during the course of this litigation been so alex jones needs to be watching because there are a lot of people breathing heavily down his back to get information that's probably contained within the text messages and those emails. >> to katie's point, nick. alex jones is in a bit of a hot mess. he's told the january 6th committee that, you know, they had everything, right? well, clearly not. so what could these texts reveal to congressional investigators from your reporting? >> look, as we know, he played a key role in organizing the legal rally at the ellipse to stop the steal rally and helping arrange funding for it on january 6th and it was that rally that metastasized into the capitol riot. he's claimed no knowledge of riot or planned attacks and it's one of the questions that the committee had wanted to ask him in january when he pleaded the

fifth 100 times according to his own account if he had knowledge of impending violence. he has no in public, but there was a guest host on his show who talked about the need to storm the capitol. so again, as always, and so often in this investigation, it's about trying to find out if the people who organized the rally at the ellipse actually had something more in mind, made plans for it and had plans to violently overthrow the certification of the election. >> you would think if these folks weren't doing anything wrong or concerned about doing anything wrong, they would be more forthcoming. so, katie, here is alex jones on his infowars show on why he says he pleaded the fifth to the january 6th committee back in january. >> the questions were overall pretty reasonable, and i wanted to answer the questions, but at the same time, it's a good thing i didn't because i'm the type

that tries to answer things correctly even though i don't know all of the answers and they can try to claim it's perjury. he was caught perjuring himself in the sandy hook case anyway. do you think we'll see perjury charges coming from this? >> i mean, it depends, right? it depends if a prosecuting attorney thinks it's worth going after alex joan. the other concern alex jones has is he's testified he's perjured himself and now you have the situation where the parent company for infowars filed for bankruptcy. those bankruptcy filings are accompanied by oaths that say under penalties of perjury the information contained within them is true, and so alex jones has also been accused by the parents of the sandy hook victims of playing fast and loose with transfers of money to evade creditors such as the potential plaintiffs in these cases and other cases. so alex jones has a lot of exposure when it comes to

perjury, and it doesn't just come from what happened in that texas courtroom thus far. >> nick, this week has been so much lying by alex jones. what does it say that this person has any platform or power at all especially with the american people to get them to buy into all of this? >> well, it says that there's a huge market for people that want to be lied to. he made as much as $100,000 a day off of lying to his audience and stirring them up and spreading conspiracy theories about innocent people including the poor kids who died at sandy hook and their parents. it is the lowest form of media i can imagine, and now he's been forced to admit it. i think it's a signal moment in our age of disinformation of lying for profit that alex jones, the king of his industry, has been forced on the stand to finally admit what anybody with

any sense already knows is that sandy hook was real and happened. he finally had to admit it under oath. >> nick confesore and katie phang, thank you both, very, very much. preparing for the next election. election deniers in swing states raising the alarm that free and fair contests may now be a thing of the past. the past. me get going by treating my skin and joints. along with significantly clearer skin, skyrizi helps me move with less joint pain, stiffness, swelling, and fatigue. and skyrizi is just 4 doses a year after two starter doses. skyrizi attaches to and reduces a source of excess inflammation that can lead to skin and joint symptoms. with skyrizi, 90% clearer skin and less joint pain is possible. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms,

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the gop primary for arizona governor is, kari lake continues to push baseless claims of fraud and has declared victory even as those votes are still being counted. if she wins that rate you can add arizona to a growing list of swing states where election deniers are one step closer to being in positions of power that can control how elections are run. there are new republican nominees for secretaries of state and governor in nevada, pennsylvania and now michigan and arizona, too. "the new york times" reporting that this is causing concern over the future of free and fair elections in 2024 and beyond. the times writing that wisconsin could be next, quote, republican candidates for governor there have vowed to overhaul the state's election system in response to unfounded claims about problems in 2020. all of the major gop candidates in the race have pledged to

eliminate the wisconsin elections commission, a bipartisan agency that oversees state elections. let's bring back nick corsone, the byline in "the new york times" and charlie sykes. nick, talk us to about what their specific fears are at this moment. >> what they described to me succinctly is this is like putting arsonists in charge of the fire department and basically what you have in these states from arizona to michigan to pennsylvania to arizona to nevada and candidates running for offices that have very critical roles in our elecoral process. these are secretaries of state who are often chief election officials and during the pandemic it was secretaries of

state a lot of times who took it upon themselves to come up with mitigation plans to vote safely during covid and mailing out absentee ballot applications and also candidates for governor in panetta, doug mastriano and he gets to the point of secretary of state and governors play a key role in the certification of elections and sending presidential electors with the electoral college sometimes and then it starts with the attorney general. they are the representatives of the state and they can launch their own investigations which can create chaos. so when you look at the past statements like someone like mark finchem who won the republican nomination for secretary of state you see shn who has taken a bunch of conspiracies and debunked claims and he tried to get rid of machines in his own election and he claimed it was a lot of

flooding of paper. if he's in charge of elections there are a lot of election experts out there, democrats and even some republicans who say this could really unmoor us from the election administration is carried out in a very nonpartisan manner. >> charlie, you mentioned earlier that trump is going to be in your great state of wisconsin tomorrow attempting to torpedo a powerful republican in the state assembly race because he refuses, of course, to do the impossible. "the new york times" reports that after months of toying with robin voss as the most powerful republican in state politics, former president trump endorsed mr. voss' long-shoot primary challenger on thursday in a futile effort to push the state's republicans to de-certify the results of the 2020 election. is trump willing to take down the entire republican party to

soothe his bruised and fragile little ego? >> yes. and he's prepared to divide the party rather bitterly. he's coming in on behalf of his endorsed candidate for governor and tim michaels who has parachuted back to wisconsin after being absent for a decade and michaels is all in on not just the big lie, but open to decertifying the election and we have a candidate for governor who may win the primary next tuesday who has made it very clear that he will be joined at the hip when it comes to donald trump. as far as going after robin voss, what a cautionary tale because voss' hands are not clean here. he appointed a former supreme court just toys run a bogus investigation that fed the fires of speculation of the election. he has aggressively tried to suck up to donald trump, you know, flew on his plane to pledge his loyalty, but for

donald trump it's not just enough to be loyal. you have to be willing to take a step as extreme as de-certifying the election. so we're going to find out whether or not he is going to oust the speaker. what's going to be interesting will be how much time will he spend here and basically talking to republicans. they were concerned and if he decides he'll take the role, and how much damage is he going on do and we're about to fiend out in the next few days. >> it's just a -- this has been very different and what do you make of these same election deniers for a gop unity event

coming together? what's the danger here of coming together like this legitimizing the lies that these folks put out there? what do you think of this? >> well, this has been the cancer that's been afflicting the republican party for the last six years is that people who know what the nature of the threat is decide that they'll not stand up and go along. so in pennsylvania you have the non-team crazy republicans going along with doug mastriano who ought to be disqualified. in michigan, peter meijer who has gone out of his way to say that -- that this election denying has -- posses an existential threat to democracy and the next day an election denier embraces him. so it's part of this team loyalty that ignores all of the other issues that are happening here and very, very

disappointing because meijer had made a strong case. he voted for the impeachment of the president and now he's going along with it. there is a moment at which you put country over party and michael, i mean, you've done that. it is possible and yet it is vanishingly rare among republican officials, but that's the question. what comes first? the country, a democratic republic or your party loyalty and we're seeing the choices they're making. >> i would like to see folks take a damn stand for the country and stick with it. just stick with it, you know? but here we are. nick, thanks very much for your reporting. charlie, always thank you, my friend. >> thank you. >> up next, wnbc star brittney griner sentenced in a russian prison and the u.s. making a commitment to bring her home. the very latest coming up.

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[acoustic soul music throughout] to come to the table and do more incredible things. [acoustic soul music throughout] [acoustic soul music throughout] [acoustic soul music throughout] i never meant to hurt anybody. i never meant to put in jeopardy the russian population. i never meant to break any laws here. i know everybody keeps talking about political pawn and politics, but i hope that that is far from this courtroom. i made an honest mistake, and i hope that in your ruling that it doesn't end my life here. >> that was brittney griner

pleading with the judge for leniency before her verdict was read today in a russian court. the judge ignoring her apology, handing down close to the maximum sentence of nine years in prison, finding her guilty of charges of drug smuggling and possession after the wnba star was arrested in february at a moscow airport for carrying vape cartridges in her luggage. after the verdict u.s. secretary of state anthony blinken condemned the russian justice system and called efforts to bring griner home a personal priority. russia said any talk of a potential swap for griner and jailed american paul whalen. >> a russian journalist writing for "the washington post" who has been covering that country for close to a decade and paul firestone former president legal adviser at the embassy in moscow. mary, let us get a sense of what

happened in the courtroom today. can you give us this idea of what the mood is there and certainly, how is this playing out across russia because brittney griner is popular in russia. >> she is. see has a lot of fans where her club is where she played off-season for the wnba and the court today, the mood has been changing and at some points you can see brittney smiling and trying to communicate with her lawyers and telling the translator, but when they came to actual sentence the mood obviously, you know, went downhill because the judge dismissed all of the evidence that the defense his presented asking for leniency explaining that she had a prescription in the united states for medical marijuana and that she as a proearn if athlete used that occasionally to relieve pain

from multiple traumas they sustained and they did not take into account the characteristics that people sent to the court on her behalf and they said and they continue to maintain that she intentionally brought theseo russia, something that brittney obviously denies, and she says that she had no idea that the cartridges were in her luggage in the first place. so, at some point, you could see how she was basically apologizing to the russian people and to her family and was tearing up. >> tom, as we mentioned, secretary blinken has said it's a priority to bring griner home. president biden, in fact, also calling her detention unacceptable in a statement he made today. we are really just seeing one side of this, though, and certainly these negotiations have been on the public side here in the u.s. what will the u.s. posture publicly be in the coming days and weeks now that the verdict has been announced but also what

is the private negotiation posturing going to be like between russia and the u.s.? >> well, it's hard, but we don't have a lot of visibility into the private negotiating posture, but it's clear the administration is going to redouble its efforts to try to get her out. president biden said that. secretary blinken said that. it's hard to know, though, what they can do at this point. they've already played the big card and offered viktor bout in exchange for these two americans. the russians, of course, came back and said they want vadim out, which the administration dismissed as not a serious offer. he's a murderer. he's in german custody, not in the u.s. so it's very -- it's hard to say what they're going to do. they will redouble the efforts, maybe try to repackage the deal, but they're in a difficult situation right now. >> it is. it is very hard to watch and see the pain that she's going through right now, but we appreciate you, mary ilyushina

and tom firestone. a step in the right direction to hold the officers accountable for the murder of breonna taylor, killed by police officers in her home. now, more than two years ago. we'll tell you about that development next. ago we'll tell you about that development next

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connection to their roles in the raid that killed breonna taylor. the crimes alleged include use of excessive force and violation of breonna taylor's civil rights. the officers who have been charged include brett hankison, who fired ten shots through taylor's patio door. at a press conference today, attorney general merrick garland said the doj is committed to justice for taylor. >> we share, but we cannot fully imagine the grief felt by breonna taylor's loved ones and all of those affected by the events of march 13, 2020. breonna taylor should be alive today. >> and when we come back, cpac under way now in texas with the far-right authoritarian leader of hungary addressing the group. we'll talk about that. of course we will. next. 'll talk about that. cofourse we will. next moderate to severe eczema still disrupts my skin. despite treatment it disrupts my skin with itch. it disrupts my skin with rash.

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♪♪ in our nation's 246-year history, there has never been an individual who was a greater threat to our republic than donald trump. he tried to steal the last election using lies and violence to keep himself in power after the voters had rejected him. he is a coward. a real man wouldn't lie to his supporters. he lost his election, and he lost big. i know it. he knows it. and deep down, i think most republicans know it. >> hi again, everyone, it's 5:00 in new york. i'm michael steele in for my friend, nicole wallace. in a brand-new ad for congresswoman liz cheney's primary campaign, her father and former vice president dick cheney is not holding back,

calling the former president the greatest threat to the republic in its history. showcasing the immense divide within the gop, those who follow donald trump and those few, like the cheneys, who remain steadfast in their defense of the constitution and the rule of law. that stark divide also on display in dallas, texas, today, where the large conservative gathering, cpac, is a who's who of trump allies. today's marquee speaker at cpac is viktor orban, the prime minister of hungary. orban, known for being pro-putin, said explicitly, quote, we do not want to become peoples of mixed ray. orban's long-time advisor slammed the speech and resigned, saying his comments were unacceptable, even by the standards of the most

bloodthirsty racist. yet, cpac never pulled its invitation. our friend amanda carpenter spoke about what cpac has become. >> when i went to cpac as a young conservative in washington, i remember the stage welcoming leaders from ukraine who were pushing back against russian aggression, and those were the types of people who were celebrated, but i really think things changed under trump. under trump, there is a fascination, respect, obsession with strongmen on the international stage. and i think it has a lot to do with conservatives losing the arguments when it comes to the things like race, identity, and immigration here at home, and looking for support abroad to sort of bolster their positions. >> earlier this week, orban visited trump at his golf course in new jersey, and the former president will be the keynote speaker at cpac this saturday. joining us now, "new york times" political reporter and msnbc

contributor jeremy peters. also with us, a.b. stoddard, associate editor and columnist for real clear politics, and tara, senior advisor to the lincoln project as well as president scholar at uva's center of politics. welcome, everybody. so, you know where we're going. you know where we're going. we're starting with a round robin. i got to get everybody's thoughts on dick cheney calling donald trump the greatest threat to the republic in american history. a watershed moment, no doubt. you first, what do you think, a.b.? >> well, i thought it was a powerful ad. i don't know if it's going to win her her primary on august 16th. i think that liz cheney has other plans, just a back-up plan, and that she is interested in running against president trump in the republican primary contest in 2024, and she is doing what she can to reach as many people with a very powerful message, which is that she's running not just against

president trump but against anyone in the republican party who's backing his lies and who's undermining democracy. and i think she is going to continue to get a ton of attention, whether or not she loses her primary on august 16th. >> jeremy, your thoughts on the vice president coming out swinging for his daughter. >> well, i think you have to look at it, michael, the way that most republicans will react to this, and that's to accuse dick cheney of not really being a republican anymore. that's pretty remarkable, and i think that tells us a lot about what the republican party is today when a family like the cheneys, when, you know, who once embodied the republican party, a man like dick cheney, who many liberals and democrats would have called a threat to democracy for his foreign policy and denounced as dangerous, given the direction of our foreign policy in the middle

east during the bush years, the idea that he is no longer representative of the republican party, the idea that he and his daughter are held up by many democrats as republicans of conscience, i mean, it would have been unthinkable ten years ago. and that's really where we are today. we're in donald trump's republican party, not dick cheney's. >> tara, bring us home on dick cheney's bold move to support his daughter. >> i'm glad to see it. it would have been nice if the dick cheneys and bushes and others who were the luminaries in the republican party had spoken out more forcefully against donald trump many years ago, perhaps we would not have been here right now. you know, they -- we really needed those folks to be the conscience of the republican party at a time where clearly the leaders of the republican party were unwilling to stand up

and maybe they would have gotten the permission structure if some other -- some of the, like i said, the veterans who were respected in the republican party had spoken out prior to now. i'm glad to see it now, but to jeremy's point, if you would have asked you or i if progressives and democrats would be praising anyone with the last name cheney? >> i know. >> in this day and age? we would have told you, you were crazy. we've got a bridge in brooklyn to sell you. it just goes to show you that the crazy political times that we're in. but it shows you also that the democrats and that there are people who are capable of putting country over party when right is right, and that's what's happening right now. >> i know a number of my progressive friends have just run out of wine tickets at their local bar, you know? just they can't -- i just agreed with liz cheney. okay. settle down. it's okay. >> right. >> but i do. i think all of you make a really broad and important point about the state of this current party, and it really speaks to what's

happening right now in texas. a.b., you have -- you are not just a student of politics and have written and studied and been involved in it, but to watch the gop giving a platform to viktor orban, i mean, is there any clearer way to express that this party is no longer serious, no longer even pretends to stand for democracy? >> right. that's true, michael. i mean, what's so amazing is that cpac used to be -- it was always a colorful event, you know, people liked their costumes, but it was also serious discussions about policy and the direction of the party. whatever they are defining as conservatism now is not about our leadership in the world and free markets and limited government and reverence for the rule of law. it's about christian nationalism and they're not subtle.

they have a dalliance with viktor orban because he has transitioned hungary from a democracy towards autocracy. he controls the media. he's putin friendly. he's a member of the eu but criticizes it and bashes it, will not provide any support to ukraine, is eroding the rights of lgbtq hungarians and women and is very up front about his embrace of christian nationalism, and this is why they had a conference in may where he spoke and could not make it another year without getting together with him and had him come to texas. again, it's really important to note, this is what the crowd wants. they don't want to hear about policy. they want to hear about nationalism. they want to hear about battling immigrants and flirtation with conversations about being opposed to mixing race. >> tara, talk a little bit about the point that amanda carpenter brought up, how conservatives need to -- need support from

those abroad to bolster their views on things like race and immigration here at home. >> well, that's because they've become so far out of the mainstream, domestically, that they're now outsourcing their extremism, and bringing it in to the united states for validation. it's clear. as a veteran of many, many cpacs back in the day, i used to look forward to it as a young conservative in washington, d.c., it has really just -- it's astonishing to me how everything about cpac since the era of trump is just circling the toilet bowl of democracy now. they are just flushing it down the toilet. they don't care. they are more emboldened than ever, to a.b.'s point, about embracing this extremism with christian nationalism, bringing in someone like viktor orban at cpac would have the ronald reaganites of the day spinning in their graves. ronald reagan spoke at cpac.

that used to be one of the hallmarks of the conservative movement where there were serious discussions. yes, there was some quirkiness there but there were serious discussions. it was a must-stop place for presidential candidates and now they have someone here who represents the worst of the worst, not of democracy, of authoritarianism. and that is what they're doing. let's not forget that not only has viktor orban made atrocious comments about mixed race and about his anti-semitism, pro-putin, but he also altered the constitution of hungary to change the voting to keep him in power. does that sound familiar? that sounds like something that the republican party now is embracing and has with the big lie and is continuing to support donald trump, so this is no longer a party that is of democracy. it's a party that is pro-authoritarianism, and we haven't seen a leader like this speak this way in europe since the 1940s, which we all remember what happened then and who that was. >> yeah, it really is damning

evidence, particularly as, you know, like you, tara, spent a lot of years at cpac. i've spoken at cpac on a number of occasions. >> me too. >> and it has become something horrific at this point. jeremy, with all of that as a backdrop, what's going in texas, what we've been talking about so far, could you speak a little bit to the history of donald trump and cpac? >> so, i think that viktor orban's presence on the stage there is just the culmination of a series of trends and developments, some subtle, some not so subtle, that we saw unfolding since, you know, the days of pat buchanan, really, even somewhat before then. this kind of sentiment, this race baiting, this othering of certain americans based on their color or nationality, has always been there. it's just not been as prominent.

in 2011, cpac was the stage where donald trump tested out his first message on birtherism. you know, this vile conspiracy theory about president obama's nationality and religion. and it got the biggest applause of any line in his speech. and that was 2011. i don't need to remind you, michael, it was just, i believe, what, 2017, maybe a little earlier than that, when somebody attacked you in racist, vile terms from the stage, saying that the only reason you were chairman of the republican national committee was because of your race. >> yeah. >> and this is -- like i'm saying, this has always been there. i think that the trump years emboldened those sentiments, empowered the people to make

them without any fear of retaliation. and now, what do you have? you have the party of donald trump and marjorie taylor greene, and whereas it used to be just, you know, a few one-offs like steve king, think of how long it took before republicans finally distanced themselves from steve king, who made appalling, racist comments about immigrants. and now, marjorie taylor greene, who has associated with white supremacists, and the republican party doesn't bat an eye at that, and she remains one of the biggest fund-raising draws in today's gop. so, this has all come home. >> it was more than the color of my skin, trust me on that one, baby. they just couldn't handle it. so, i want to, a.b., tie in with you, not just what's happening in texas right now with cpac but also how this kind of rolls out and sort of worms its way into what we see playing out in the

results in arizona right now. and certainly, with a lot of the candidates that trump has endorsed around these primaries. >> well, trump is doing two things at once. one, he's tried to pick a fight with the remains of the old guard of the republican establishment, to pick flawed election denier freak candidates who are making mitch mcconnell sick to his stomach. and they're really endangering the republicans' chances at taking back the senate and winning key gubernatorial races like in pennsylvania, wisconsin, and michigan. at the same time, sometimes, he panics and sees that someone might lose, and he'll, you know, jump on the bandwagon and endorse someone like eric schmidt, who's also an election denier but not as unelectable. sometimes he panics, looks for

the "w" and joins forces with the establishment. but he really is trying to wage -- to make the divide bigger and, of course, continue the big lie, and it is leading to a real headache for republicans. will they speak out, michael? are they coming out and saying, we are -- have elected dangerous people like mr. finchum, who would be a secretary of state in arizona who is an oath keeper and a january 6er, an election denier? no, they're just mute and quiet and going about their business and saying it will be a tough election. it's always hard. and it might be competitive. but they're not calling out what we're seeing on stage at cpac. they're not calling out how unelectable and how radical and extreme these candidates are. they're putting their head down and trying not to upset the trump base, and then they're going to take their lumps in november as a result. >> tara, about the minute we've

got left, i want to go a little bit off script with you here. it's just you and me talking here. do these folks at cpac -- does the leadership, especially around the country, do they actually believe that this all ends well for the party? do they really believe that their silence, their acquiescence, their go along to get along, their sort of merry, you know, let's buckle up and unify after you just whipped our behinds in a general -- in a primary election with your lies, they really think this is all going to end well for the party in two, three, four cycles? that they're going to be bigger, stronger with more americans joining the party as opposed to running screaming away from it? >> yeah. well, the -- i think the people who run it, right, this is a big grift for them. it has been very lucrative for them. the people who are running this, i don't think that they -- that they care as long as they have the attention, as long as they have power, as long as they're making money.

they don't care. they don't give a damn about what happens to our democracy as a result of their dereliction. and they have created a monster. and the desire for the elected officials to just go along to get along because of the power of tribalism and party loyalty is ultimately destroying the republican party. look at what just happened in michigan. you had peter meyer, who bravely stood up and did the right thing to vote against -- to vote for impeachment of donald trump. he got primaried by a crazy, someone who is not qualified to be a congressman, election denier, and then he goes -- he loses, and now he's on the bandwagon and is supporting the guy who beat him in the primary, who's an election denier, and everything that peter meyer claimed he stood against. they are becoming what they despise and now the train has left the station, and they can't control it. so they're just going along, and it's gotten worse. there has been no -- michael, you know this.

how many opportunities to off-ramp from this? and the leaders in the party, the people who have the opportunity to put an end to this have not done so. they still think they can manage it. no, they cannot. they are barrelling down a bath to possibly destroying our free and fair election system and our democracy in one or two election cycles. that's where we are. because a major party, the republican party, has abandoned all principles in order to, in their minds and their perverted minds, all to hold on to power and to have some agenda where they think that, oh, they're going to turn it around. no, they're not. and instead, the crazies are now overtaking the mainstream, and soon enough, you're not going to have a mitch mcconnell who's actually reasonable. you might be a villain politically, but he's reasonable. he knows better. he's not a threat to the democracy. but he's allowing, by not putting his foot down and not saying enough is enough, mccarthy, and all these other ones, this is what they've created. and now the country is paying the price. but the american people can stand up and say, no, if they

don't want this, but not unless they realize the threat that these people actually pose. >> jeremy peters, a.b. stoddard, thank you so much for just starting us off. tara, you're going to stick around for a little bit more. after the break, the big lie growing even bigger. how republicans in arizona are raising fresh doubts about election integrity. we'll talk to arizona's secretary of state about that. plus, the maps are being redrawn when it comes to abortion access across the country in the wake of the victory for abortion rights. advocates in kansas earlier this week. how the result could change the game for both parties ahead of the midterms. and don junior and ivanka testifying in the new york probe into donald trump's finances, sources telling nbc news today they did not plead the fifth. all those stories and more when "deadline white house" continues. s and more when "deadline white house" continues. kids don't always take the best care of school supplies. so save money shopping back to school on amazon.

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more doubt in our elections and prove their threat to our country once more. that includes those like mark finchum, the republican nominee for secretary of state, who questioned the integrity of a race he ended up winning. joining us now, arizona's secretary of state, democratic nominee for governor, katie hobbs. madam secretary, welcome. so, here you are. how does it -- how do these lies further erode the trust that voters have in our elections, not just in your state but around the country? and what do you think happens if these republicans like mark finchum and kari lake are in charge in arizona elections and elsewhere around the country? >> look, these lies are undermining our integrity of our elections in so many ways. it's, quite honestly, exasperating at this point. people just want to move on from the 2020 election, but folks like kari lake and mark finchum

have centered their entire campaigns on it, and i think because they're more interested in appealing to the former president than they are to the majority of arizonans, and we need to move on, and how we move on is not giving these folks the votes to get into these offices. we need to elect leaders who are going to uphold the trust and integrity in our processes, not continue to undermine them. it's part of why i'm running, and i need folks to join me at katehobbs.org, but it is very concerning that this many people who are touting these lies are running for these high offices and a heartbeat away from getting into them. >> and while all that's going on, madam secretary, you still have the power to take kari lake's election fraud claims seriously. have you thought about, okay, let's delay the certification of this race to see what the results are and then go from there?

>> well, first of all, i don't have the authority to delay the certification. it is a statutory date, and the counting of all the legal ballots will be done in time to make sure that we appropriately canvas the results and certify the results. and in fact, i am the authority that kari lake referred to that she would turn the evidence over to rather than the, quote, fake news, and she has not turned over any evidence to me. the fact is, she doesn't have any evidence. this is just a baseless claim that she is using to continue to gin up her base. >> so, just so we're clear, you can't really begin any process until you receive some evidence of a claim made by a candidate, and then you can look into that? >> i mean, the appropriate venue to make a claim at this point would be to a court, but there's no -- there's nothing to file any legal challenges on, and right now, kari lake is winning,

so i don't know why she's continuing to make these claims, because i think it just undermines her own probable victory in this election. >> she's claiming fraud while she's winning, so maybe she's not winning. but now that you know who you're going to be replaced by, mark finchum, at least he's attempting to, who said he wouldn't have -- he wouldn't have conceded if he lost this recent primary, what do you make of that? >> well, i mean, this is right out of the trump playbook, right, and it's part of the plan to continue to sow doubt, to undermine the confidence and create all this confidence about what the actual processes are and what people do or don't have the ability to do in these processes. but it is highly concerning that someone like mark finchum, who is an oath keeper, election denier, was at the january 6th insurrection, could be in this office. he has said, if he was secretary of state, donald trump would

still be president. there's no legal ability for that to happen. and so, this is really concerning. we need to move on from these lies, and make sure that we're focused on upholding the integrity of the processes. nobody who is more focused on the outcome should be in charge of our elections. >> you say, quite frequently, democracy is on the ballot this november. so, how do you and candidates like you contend with trump's power over these elections and the candidates that he has out there running on the big lie? >> well, as secretary of state, i'm going to continue calling out the lies. we have been doing that for the last two years. as a candidate for governor, i am talking to voters across the state about the issues they're concerned about, how we bring people together to solve these issues, and how i have a track record of doing that, and these election deniers are not offering any real solutions to

any of the issues that we're facing right now. >> "the new york times" reporting, here's what a trump campaign lawyer wrote in december 2020 about two arizona election officials involved in trump's fake electors plot. arizona republican party chair kelli ward and state senator kelly towson. ward and towson are concerned it could appear treasonous for the arizona electors to vote on monday if there is no pending court proceeding that might eventually lead to the electors being ratified as the legitimate ones. what does it say that they went along with it, despite knowing it might fail and the legal concerns that they had? >> i mean, the lengths that these people would go to overturn results that they don't like should be alarming to all of us. they need to stop. they need to understand that we have legal processes in place, and they were followed, and they

need to be held accountable for these continued, repeated attempts to undermine our democracy and overturn the will of the voters, and quite frankly, break the laws. >> arizona secretary of state katie hobbs, thank you for spending some time with us. much appreciate it. >> thank you. and we are watching an austin, texas, courthouse, where we've learned a verdict has been reached in the alex jones defamation case against parents of sandy hook victims. coming up, why democrats are confident the hard line abortion stance within factions of the gop is set to backfire on the party. o backfire on the party.

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we have breaking news in the alex jones trial. the far-right conspiracy theorist ordered to pay over $4.1 million in damages to the parents of the sandy hook victims. the lawyers for the sandy hook parents were asking for $150 million. joining our conversation, former democratic congresswoman donna edwards of maryland and tara setmayer is also back with us. just get your reactions right out of the gate here about what we've heard from the jury in this defamation case. let's start with you, congresswoman. >> well, i think that there is no amount of money that can bring back the lives of

6-year-olds and their teachers who perished in that sandy hook shooting. what alex jones did was reprehensible, and i think the jury acknowledged that, which might be some vindication for the families, but you know, i would say that, you know, what alex jones did, as revealed by his own communications, text messages, emails, was reprehensible, and i think that this is a signal to people that you can not just exploit people's pain and their suffering by doing what alex jones did in order to make a buck, in order to make a political statement, and this verdict demonstrates, i think, to all of us, that that pain and that suffering is not going to be tolerated. >> we're waiting also for a

verdict on one more charge to come in, and we'll get that to you as soon as it is announced. so, tara, building off of what donna was just talking about, obviously, the parents did not -- this was not about the money. that's very true. how do you now -- but we know this -- these folks. how do you see this being spun and do you think that the jones types, folks like him, will they learn something from this going forward? >> maybe. i'm not so sure, because some of them, they thrive off being victims. we've seen this repeatedly, particularly with conspiracy theory nut cases like alex jones, and what alex jones did to these families is absolutely atrocious. he is the scum of the earth. and i hope that that jury comes back with punitive damages that bankrupt him to hell, because that's exactly where he belongs. because that's what he has put

these families through for the last ten years, who could not -- these families couldn't mourn properly because he was out there perpetuating this god-awful lie about sandy hook not being real and these poor little kids and their families suffering from this awful tragedy, and he profited off of this. there were reports that he was making $800,000 a day at one point, and he even was unremorseful on the stand. if you watch any part of this, he was trying to hock his supplements. he was lying while he was there. he was admonished repeatedly by the judge. people like this don't learn until they pay a big enough price, and i hope that that price bankrupts him so that he no longer has a platform to spill his ilk. so, i applaud the jury for coming out and at least this part of it, it's compensatory, and then the punitive damages, we'll see. i mean, there are limits to it. they won't get $150 million, but i do hope it's enough to shut him down. and i also hope that they pursue perjury charges against him,

because we already saw through this civil trial that he perjured himself, and now he has another headache with his phone and text messages being handed over to the january 6th committee, because he played a role in that disaster also. so, as far as i'm concerned, the world's tiniest violin is playing right now for alex jones. >> i think that's going to be true largely around the country at this point, donna. because we watched, realtime, the agony and the pain of these families and to have someone like, you know, alex jones out there sort of making money off that pains does not feel good to the american people, doesn't resonate with them at all. but more broadly speaking, how do you see the country reacting to this? you know, certainly the compensatory damages, we'll see what punitive damages are, but more broadly, do you want -- do you think the country wants to

see more pressure from the judicial system on these types of efforts, that sort of make money off of the pain of particularly victims like children or is this just going to be one more verdict? and then we'll move on? >> no, and i think i agree with tara, that i think there needs to be, you know, follow-up criminal or perjury charges leveled against alex jones. i mean, the judge acknowledged, in the trial. he lied. he lied on the stand. he continues to lie. he lied about his net worth in order to try to reduce the amount of damages that he would have to pay. and so, i just think that, you know, you're always going to have a set of people in the country who are wedded to these conspiracy theories, but what we cannot tolerate is the person who is going to ramp that up and sell the conspiracy in order to line his own pockets. we may not be able to do

anything about the people who believe those conspiracy theories, but i mean, this trial will demonstrate, and we will see with the punitive damages, will demonstrate that you're not going to be allowed to profit on it, and in fact, if you perjure yourself, you may end up in jail. >> tara, is there room coming out of this case, and certainly this verdict, for other families and communities that have been impacted by gun violence, who have also suffered publicly at the hands of some on the extreme right who have mitigated their pain and tried to make money off it, that they see this as a pathway not just in dealing with the defamation but also dealing with some of the more policy-oriented issues around gun violence and so forth? >> well, i think the -- we'll take the defamation part of this first. defamation cases are really

hard, and so this is a difficult path because you run up against first amendment issues, opinion versus what's actual malice and defamation. alex jones is an extreme case, and we see how long it has taken these families to finally get some justice here against him, so you -- it can be challenging to win on that part of it, for people like this to pay a price, because we have free speech in this country. but as far as gun legislation and moving forward with that, i think we have seen movement on it since sandy hook, unfortunately, there have been a rash of mass shootings, and we've seen the country start to open up a little bit more to the possibility of stricter gun laws that could possibly prevent these. we just saw something passed bipartisan this year, a modest step forward, but a step forward nonetheless. >> donna edwards and tara setmayer, thank you very much. appreciate you. coming up, don junior and

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according to those sources, neither of them exercised their fifth amendment rights during their testimony. the former president himself is expected to speak to the attorney general's team in the coming weeks. joining us now, susanne craig, "new york times" investigative reporter, and tim o'brien, senior executive editor for bloomberg opinion. they both are msnbc contributors. thank you, and welcome to you both. suzanne, what could don junior and ivanka offer investigators about their father's business practices? what's so juicy that they could share? >> well, it is interesting, at the top, you noted that they did not take the fifth, and that does differ from eric and from allen weisselberg, the former cfo of the company. you know, with their -- the two children are potentially, and this may have factored into why they didn't take the fifth, because they may not be as involved in some of the minutia of this case that we think, but they're involved in the day-to-day operations, and they

would have been in touch, potentially -- this is a case that looks at appraisals and the appraisal of real estate and whether or not laws were broken. you know, did they give advice to banks or documentation to banks that was potentially false? what were their communications with the main appraiser that's on the case? there's a lot of stuff there that they could have provided that the attorney general would be very interested in. >> so, susanne, the trump family's also facing the civil probe into their finances and there's also the lingering criminal probe by the manhattan d.a.'s office. >> yep. >> who will be looking for trump's deposition for any new leads. >> well, very real -- a very real case, criminal case, against the trump organization and allen weisselberg. it will be going to trial unless it settles. >> so, what are the stakes there for the trump family as they, you know, as they cooperate with these investigations? >> well, very high, i would

think, on both with the criminal, if there is a criminal trial and they're convicted, you know, could have huge ramifications on the company, potentially could put them out of business. you know, it will affect their -- you know, their lines of credit, their ability to borrow and the rates they can borrow at. the civil case is sort of another -- it's sort of connected. it's happening with the attorney general. the civil case, they could face and could go to trial on that as well. these are two very serious things simmering in new york for them. >> tim, back to the fifth amendment for a little bit. you tweeted a quote from a "new york times" piece the other day, in which it highlights how trump ridicules witnesses for taking the fifth amendment. so, do you think we'll see trump take the fifth, and if he does, is he going to ridicule himself? >> michael, he never ridicules himself, so i don't expect to see that happen.

i imagine his lawyers are advising him -- will probably advise him to take the fifth, because he's a tricky client to put under testimony. he has a penchant for exaggeration, which alone is problematic, but he also can almost be a pathological liar and misrepresent his track record frequently. he tried to do that under oath when my lawyers deposed him in our litigation. we had the virtue of having documents we could push across the table toward him that contradicted earlier statements he had made about a wide variety of things. having said all that, though, i think there's still a very high hurdle for the new york attorney general's office to meet here in proving fraud. they're going to have to show that the trumps knowingly misled the banks, and that the banks ultimately, i think, were victimized. some of at least the evidence that's come into the public record indicates that both the manhattan district attorney's office and the new york attorney general are relying on these statements of financial

condition that trump showed the media and others, and those are very loosely drawn documents. they weren't -- they didn't pass muster with most accounting principles. he used them, i think, as a document that allowed him to brag. it's not clear to brag. it's notes clear to me any of the banks relied on those documents to make loans to him, and on top of it, they are sophisticated organizations that are supposed to do their own due diligence. some of that has to be muddled out from a evidentiary standpoint. i think the second issue here is donald trump is a potential land mine for his lawyers under deposition because he's undisciplined. he likes to exaggerate. and he probably won't stay on script unless they tell him to simply take the fifth repeatedly and repeatedly. i think it's interesting that the children didn't take the

fifth. it would suggest to me they don't think they're exposed. but we know ivanka was one of the primary liaisons at deutsche bank. don jr. helped manage 40 wall street. those are all transactions the prosecutors with looking at. we'll have to see how that side of it plays out, too. >> to wrap it up real quick, what are leticia james' next steps? >> i have to believe she's at the end of her fact gathering process. i don't think she would depose trump if it wasn't close to an end point. the next step is if she'll indict the trump organization and his children. >> thank you both very much. >> thank you. >> thank you. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. we can come to you and replace your windshield. >> grandkid: here you go! >> tech: wow, thank you! >> customer and grandkids: bye! >> tech: bye! don't wait, schedule now. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪

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the last story we wanted to bring you tonight may be one of the more consequential political stories on our radar. it starts in detroit, where for the first time in nearly 70 years, the city is poised to be left without a single black member of congress. this is detroit, which is about 80% black and is now staring down a future with no black representation. the story comes down to redistricting. "the washington post" explaining it this way. quote, the independent citizens' redistricting commission in january finalized the u.s. house

and legislative maps that will last ten years. if plans are fair politicaly to democrats but have drawn criticism in the civil rights department because they slash the seats where -- seeking to block the newly drawn districts, the suit alleging violations of the u.s. voting rights act and constitution. and a moment when leader in the black community are sounding the alarm about nationwide assaults on constitutional voting rights, we will be watching this story in detroit and in redrawn districts across the country for new developments. one for quick break for us. we'll be right back. we'll beig rht back.

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thank you for being with us this thursday. "the beat" with ari melber starts right now. hey, ari, what's up? >> what's up, michael? good to see you. welcome to "the beat." i am ari melber. we have breaking news. right wing conspiracy theorist alex jones just lost another round in the multistep quest for justice. he has been found to have been lying and defaming people. today, part one of the damages to the tune of $4.1 million. this is breaking news within the last half an hour coming out of that dramatic courtroom scene we have been covering. this is what they call compensatory damages to the sandy hook families, parents of the murdered children, and it's only step one. we'll explain tt