♪♪ ♪♪ namaste, everyone. john hammond is here sitting in this chair for nicole wallace all week long. just warning you. if you're a democrat you're pretty happy this week regardless of who is in this chair. the wind at its back thanks to a

piece of legislation, the vote 51-50 for the inflation reduction act and a sweeping 700 plus diamond bill on health care, prescription drugs and climate with all 50 republicans voting against and vice president kamala harris breaking the tie. if the house passed the bill later this week as expected, democrats would have passed a landmark piece of legislation as described by "the washington post" as quote one of the most consequential pieces of economic policy in u.s. history and it comes at the string of legislative victories for joe biden as the times put it, capped off an extraordinarily productive run for a congress better known for its paralysis and it included passage and the first bipartisan gun safety legislation in a generation and a huge microchip reduction to bolster american competitiveness with china and a major veterans health care measure. a series of successes was all of

the more sweet for democrats because it came with the political benefit of republicans making themselves look not just bad, not just stupid, utterly idiotic by having them switch their position, and getting obliterated by jon stewart and after having been revealed to have had a temper tantrum with the climate deal and they had to back off and do the right thing. washington post reports that it was added to hoax that they might be able to avoid the historic headwinds that the president's party typically faces in midterm elections while voters won't have the impact before election day and if they have something more to campaign on and they hope that it will sweeten voters' sour mood toward the party over high inflation and the head of the senate democrats campaign arm with the washington post, i think it's pretty clear that there is a momentum shift. we'll talk about that this incredible panel and jake

sherman the co-founder of punch bowl news and katty kay for bbc news and strategist and former adviser to the bush, romney and campaigns, each and every one and msnbc contributor. jake, when the moment comes, when the biden press office, decides to step out of the shadows and start tweeting, not just tweeting in favor of things that joe biden has done and starts employing meme politics, they went for the dark branded meme. that's how you know that the white house is on it, and there it is, it's crushing it and right there on twitter and andrew baits from the rob bates office, and he also did a meme and a white house that a few months ago was oh, my god, we're getting crushed and tell us how what you're hearing up on the hill and how it all came

together to put them in this position that no one thought they'd be in just a few weeks ago. >> are you going to give me all hour to run through this story? no, i think a few things worth considering here, john, number one and this is a much-needed victory for the president, number one and senate majority leader chuck shumer and you have to admit no matter what party you're in or what side of the aisle you're on, this is an incredibly productive six-week stretch for chuck shumer and you have to give much, if not all of the credit to schumer and i'm not belittling the white house here, but the president has found, i think actions speak louder than words here. i think the white house has found that biden is most productive when he's not acting as they say as the 101st senator. i know biden has the inclination and the urge to be involved in every legislative debate and to

negotiate as he did a couple of decades ago when he was in the senate, but that is not useful and there is a dynamic here on capitol hill among democrats. there was this dynamic and joe manchin got back in line and cut this deal after 18 months of hemming and hawing over it and that was the spark here and if you look at all of the other deals and the chips bill and the pact act, nato, and finland joining nato, and infrastructure. this was all generated by rank and file members of congress. that is a marked difference, john, from what we've seen in the last two presidencies and the trump presidency and the obama presidency which were to the extent the trump presidency was anything, but those were much more top down. so it's a massive victory for the president, but i agree with what the post said there. we don't know and schumer said yesterday, he had no idea

whether voters would feel any of this, and they might feel some, they won't feel all and it is a momentum shift in the sense that democrats have left d.c. with a pep in their step. >> katty, we'll get to the politics of it in a second and it's super important as to how it will play out, but look, jake made the point that joe biden who by instinct and inclination wanted to be the 51st senator. >> i was in that place for 35 years and i know how to make deals in congress and we say he's undisciplined and people say that all of the time, and it seems to me that having realized that being the 51st democratic senator, or the 101st senator was not working for him. he decided he was going to go against his instincts and let chuck schumer take the lead on this and rebound to him and to the party and it speaks discipline and joe biden or not, two words that go together and one of the most obvious cases

where he fought his own instincts and it paid off. >> yeah. it seems to have done when he was getting heavily involved in it with the build back better act, tweeting about it regularly, and talking about it regularly and it didn't get anywhere and it didn't seem to work, and i don't know if that was a direct result of joe biden getting involved or whether it was a direct result of the first time around the bill was just too big for kyrsten sinema was able to stomach because the climate change aspect of this is much more carrots than it is sticks and that's something that he can get along with, but whatever it was with those two it's being passed and it's hard to see how biden himself doesn't benefit from this, whether that means he can carry on being disciplined and he will benefit from this. it may not as chuck schumer said have a materiel impact on voters in terms of their pocketbooks by november and you're already seeing signs that young voters

in particular and joe biden was really in the tooth with young voters. only 1% of approval rating just last month among voters under the age of 30. this matters to voters under the age of 30, and it will -- democrats, but it's hard to see how it doesn't benefit as well. >> mike. i always like to talk about politics, and i will before this block is over and put up this list, you guys. put up the list of the consequences of the biden presidency and what he's got go done here in 2021 and 2022. the american recovery act, and the chips and science act, $300 billion, and the inflation reduction act now about $700 billion and all of those numbers coming from politico. you know, there's been a lot of rancor. a lot of people said that it looked like build back better was dead. i take the blame.

i said this. i said joe biden was nuts to talk about how he would get all of this stuff done and how he could be like lbj or fdr with the narrow margin he has and he'll never pull that off and that's crazy and now you look at that list and i don't know if i would compare them to fdr or lbj and some i'm sure will and i'm curious how as a matter of substance how the biden presidency in the first two years now stacks up that we see this list of what got done. >> johnny, i got whiplash. i'm a political hack and i try to talk substance and you make a good point. historians will say the rodney dangerfield presidency and your kids can look that up, the don't get no respect presidency is over. he actually delivered a lot of stuff. the political question and some of these things were bipartisan and they're both huge and he deserves a lot of credit when it's nearly impossible and he did it, and did the magic trick.

now the question is the politics of it and you've got to remember that list, while impressive on a serious basis in campaign world, republicans and right of center independents don't measure success by spending levels. how many billion of this and how many billion of that particularly when there's inflation going on. so i think the good news for joe biden is one and my friends on the panel have mentioned this, and the terrible polling date as and a guillotine blade hanging over them politically and now they can make eye contact with voters and that's a useful change. will it penetrate the range of gas prices which i know is going down, but still high, groceries, inflation? i don't know. he'll get better press from washington. it won't be the same and he can't tie his shoes or pass and that will not go away, but out in voter world, it takes a while and at least they have something to fight with now which they have before.

it's a big, open question. >> you're up there on capitol hill any you're waving your hand. i see you. i'm getting to you. >> sorry. >> i'll just frame it this way. you guys want to talk about the politics and so do i. let's make the little list up here and this from politico's playbook. the scope of the issues that are addressed in this bill, notable and the pandemic and the economic fallout and highways, bridges and broadband rail and this is the totality of joe biden's domestic achievement and climate change and deficit reduction and tax equity and he also expanded nato and passed a bill to address the effects of the toxic burn pits and all, but two of the big ones and the arp received significant republican support and joe biden mocked by saying they will do something on a bipartisan basis and mocked and you understand the trump-post trump-era and you're

out of it, dude. a lot of those things and some degree of bipartisan support. how does that look from the perspective of people on capitol hill who are running for re-election in the house and many of them running for reelection in the senate. >> when you talk to members they say i'm going to go home and lean in on this? on what? what are the things they want to lean on and maybe less useful except as making the lists as we're doing here? >> a few thoughts here, number one was a perfect storm and the chips bill is something that is literally bringing massive chips factories into people's states and people's districts and that is the easiest thing to brag about and a lot of people will talk about, same for infrastructure and these are things that had bipartisan support because they weren't parts and by the way, i'm one of the people who probably wouldn't get a lot of things done on a bipartisan basis and i'm wrong

on that and that's a fair criticism of us. i do think that some of this was driven by capitol hill. we'll have to see how they message or how they talk about this bill and also the crosscurrents of what's happening on inflation. i was just on the phone with house democrat a couple of minutes ago who said tell me what it looks like in october. is gas still going down? is inflation still going down? are jobs still good? are people feeling better about the economy? the last, most recent poll i saw had 80-something percent of voters saying the country was in the wrong direction -- heading in the wrong direction. that's an astounding number and that's just a huge number and i'm not sure if they'll -- as you noted in your opening, john, i'm not sure if they'll be able to overcome both that and the general historical trends that in the first midterm of a president's term, the party in power typically loses between 25 and 26 seats on average in the

house and we'll have to see what happens in the 50/50 senate, but i'm not sure there's a neat explanation for why all of these bipartisan things passed and what they're going to do when they go home and talk about it, but there are easy things for both parties here to talk about. bridges and roads, infrastructure and chips factories with millions of jobs coming to states across the country and those are all great things to talk about and democrats will talk about the fact that they make drugs cheaper and these are not small issues and these are big issues that as you noted have been in the works for a very, very long time on capitol hill. >> when you say have been in the works and the perception that they were popular and gummed up and not getting anywhere and stuck in the works for a long time, jake and now suddenly the logjam breaks. katty, just on this bill, a politico morning poll on the key element and the medicare negotiating drug prices and 73%

of the public says they're for it and 11% is against it and reducing the budget deficit, and 73% are for it and 9% against it. go down this list on the climate thing and 54% support and 32% oppose. these are popular. a lot of these things are popular and that's part of why we got the bipartisanship and the republican couldn't fight on some of these issues anymore and this is the case that often the frame for a campaign gets set months earlier and it's hard to get out of their heads and do democrats have time and they have time to make the argument. >> maybe populism is still alive and well in american politics this time around and it's the democrats who figured out how to get themselves on the right hold of populist issues and chips, prescription drugs and these are

things that people want. play well in public and beyond the wrath the republicans always level to joe biden is that he's incompetent, old, slow, tired, can't get things done. here you have a democratic president going into summer who has reversed that idea of themselves. they've changed their whole model and now they're getting everything done and that projects energy on to biden, as well. it makes it harder to say it's an old president who can't get stuff done when he's gotten a whole slew of things done. the single biggest issue that everybody is talking about and this is democrats and republicans is gas prices. they have come down a little bit, but food prices are still not down and people are feeling that. they're not going to feel by november the cheaper drug prices. they are still going to feel, and i don't see much indication that food prices are going to come down while we have reasons

of the war on ukraine and the grain coming out of u rain and that will cause problem are for queet a long time. i still think inflation come noefr noef will be potentially a big issue unless you see prices stumble down the road. >> mike, was there one thing republicans did on this bill that again, seems like suicidal to me. they blocked the cap on insulin prices for millions of patients. here's what they said. republican lawmakers on sunday successful leal stripped a $35 price cap on the cost of insulin for many patients from the ambitious package the democrats are moving this weekend with arcane rules and some 7 million americans require insulin daily. 14% of those users are spending 40% of their income after food and housing on medicine. if you think about it is burn pit legislation, if you think about where republicans are on

things that have nothing to do with this bill like abortion. you think about the donald trump issues and all of the things we talk about all of the time about what the january 6th committee has brought out, what democrats were begging for was a big narrative. republicans are extreme. they're not on your side and they seem to have given democrats a lot of sticks to beat them with, and so i ask you the same thing i asked katty, but specifically on this. that republicans are out of step, out of touch and against your interest, can the democrats make that sale in a way that can save the house? >> well, no. i think they'll lose the house on inflation and food price e but now they at least have offense and they'll make it not just a negative referendum on joe biden and there's a perfect storm brewing and historically, and the republicans would do very well and that's made the republicans cocky. so they're starting to do really stupid things and you combine that in the senate races which

is the bigger battleground, i believe. you have a lot of weak republican candidates who are stumbling and now the democratic candidates can really go on the attack and it's not about biden and it's about giving people a break on insulin and wants to take away gay marriage and wears funny shoes and i never liked that guy. let's talk about me and these republican candidates and a lot of them, the dr. oz and some of it is like a comedy act. they've got their own problem. so is that enough to handle the midterm wave and the inflation anger wave that's coming. if the republicans had their act together both in how they run their senate messaging and in their candidate recruitment, they'd put these senate races away. they may bungle the lottery ticket they won with the conversation a genta going sideways and at least the messaging on it and some of these characters that are

running the blake masters and others, and then you have roe that we just saw a scary, scary medicine, and it's getting interesting when it really shouldn't. >> jake, you have ten seconds to answer this question. when you talk to democrats on capitol hill right now, what's the percentage of them who think that they can hold the house? >> probably 20 and just talking with a moderate democrat and no way we hold it and it's pretty bearish at this moment. >> not just a reality check on that and it's not mike murphy and that's what democrats did on capitol hill and they've made this thing way more competitive. jake sherman, katty kay, thank you for starting us off, mike murphy with the flag and his funny shoes will come back. ignoring what happened at the ballot box last week, indiana republicans decided to go ahead on an historic attack on women's

reproductive act, signing into law a near-total ban on abortion since the supreme court overturned roe. states, man, moving so far to the right it's too extreme even for some gop lawmakers. how much pro-choice energy can the democrats tap into for these upcoming midterms? plus, one of donald trump's many chiefs of staff recounting the story of how donald trump openly complained that he wanted his generals to pledge loyalty to him like the generals of nazi germany did with adolf hitler. trump and his generals are the first news-making excerpt of the new blockbuster book and one of the authors coming up on that topic. >> later in the show the 2020 election is on the ballot and tomorrow's primary race in the state of wisconsin. candidates there having to decide if they need to embrace the big lie and all those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after

this. please, do not go anywhere. aftr this please, do not go anywhere ds, yl moving and storage team. when you order the new lemon ricotta blueberry protein pancakes with 37 grams of protein, you get a smile on your plate. only from ihop. download the app and join the rewards program today. you see, son, with a little elbow grease, you can do just about anything. thanks, dad. that's right, robert. and it's never too early to learn you could save with america's number one motorcycle insurer. that's right, jamie. but it's not just about savings. it's about the friends we make along the way. you said it, flo. and don't forget to floss before you brush. your gums will thank you. -that's right, dr. gary. -jamie? sorry, i had another thought so i got back in line. what was it? [ sighs ] i can't remember.

millions have made the switch from the big three what was it? to xfinity mobile. that means millions are saving hundreds a year on their wireless bill. and all of those millions are on the nation's most reliable 5g network, with the carrier rated #1 in customer satisfaction. that's a whole lot of happy campers out there. and it's never too late to join them. get unlimited data with 5g included for just $30 a line per month when you get 4 lines. switch to xfinity mobile today.

to be clear, we have never been accused of being flashy, sexy or lit. may i? we're definitely not lit. i mean seriously, we named ourselves booking.com which is kind of lit if we are talking... literal... ha ha. it's why we're planet earth's number one site for booking accommodation. we love booking stuff! and we're just here to help you make the best of your vacation. ow... hi... booking.com booking.yeah

one of my concerns is you've got states that are going to try to ban women from traveling that don't -- if you're raped that you have to report it to the police. well, i was raped when i was 16, and it took me a week to tell my mother. by that time any evidence would have been gone, and the violation of a woman's privacy, i can't tell me how traumatic that was in my life. in my own home state they want women to be mandated to report when they are raped, and i just can't even imagine when you're a girl that has been raped and

have to report those things and "handmaid's tale" is not supposed to be a road map. i think it will be an issue in november if we're not moderating ourselves and if we're including exceptions for girls who are victims of incest and in every instance where the life of the mother is at stake. >> that was a republican, i'll say it again, republican congresswoman nancy mays of south carolina, that brings her own personal trauma to bear in a powerful way to "meet the press" this sunday warning that the party's extreme abortion ban can impact them in the midterm elections and the state governor signed a new abortion, restricting the procedure from conception and limited exceptions to severe threats from the health and life of the mother and some instances of rape, incest and fetal abnormality. this new law takes effect on september 15th, it's the

country's first post-dobbs abortion ban and comes after the overwhelming victory for abortion rights supporters in kansas. joining us is mike murphy back with us from the state of new hampshire. we've been talking about what's going on up there for a second and professor murray, i want to start with you and just talk us to about what the reaction to the law has been. there was a new york times story, and i'll cite the story right now, the new york times story major indiana employers criticize the state's new abortion law and saturday morning one of indian's biggest employers eli lilly will be forced to plan for more employment growth outside our home state. i don't think eli lilly's going to be alone in indiana in making statements like that and i think in other states that you will do these things you'll see companies doing the same thing. talk about that and what you think the fate of this law is as it goes forward? >> thanks for having me, john.

it's worth noting here that there are all sorts of ways that different individuals and institutions can exact pressure on this political landscape and what we're seeing from eli lilly is what we saw in other context like marriage equality where corporate interests came out in front of the state in recognizing same-sex couples and cultivated the conditions for the state to recognize those unions and here we see corporate interests getting out in front getting bent on authoritarianism and trying to moderate and they're going to relocate in other states that are more hospitable to reproductive rights because this law goes too far. >> mike, that's how the free market works, right? companies who look up and see these laws getting passed will vote with their feet and it does team to me that this is not -- it's not the first time we've seen it as professor murray points out and it's not the last as legislatures and governors pass into law in other states

restricts that are extreme. >> yeah. the republicans don't understand we're in a new era now, and if you get behind some clown legislation on repealing gay marriage or punishing gay rights or the extreme side of the abortion debate, the companies how have huge hr issues over this stuff. employers ask more from a company than just a paycheck, and if you're in the brainpower world and industry, you can move and if your employees want to move and you can't recruit you're going to move, and so again, sometimes the republican party still thinks you know it's 1961 and they're going to get beat up. they got a bit of luck in kansas and it was a great warning sign, but it's clear at least in the indiana state legislature nobody was listening. >> professor murray, there are a lot of places where people aren't listening. here's a little map we have of states that have abortion bans and the ban's in effect

currently in alabama, arkansas, kentucky, missouri, oklahoma, south dakota, texas and wisconsin and idaho on august 25th and indiana and we just talked about september and tennessee on august 25th and north dakota, utah, west virginia and wyoming. i'm curious about what you think on the legal side and what's the -- these are all operating separately and you can't generalize totally on this matter, but if you imagine where we're going to be a year from now in terms of the legal status of a lot of these things, what are some of the scenarios that you can imagine playing out in some of these states as we go forward. >> there will surely be litigation to challenge these laws as they go into effect and it is not clear that that litigation will be successful in beating back these laws. at best they are probably going to delay the enforcement of these laws a little bit and ultimately the supreme court has laid a foundation for upholding these laws because it is

prescribed the lowest standard for these kinds of abortion restrictions and we are unlikely to see a state voter initiative because many voters in that state don't have a mechanism for direct democrat seep. and kansas may be a bellwether on that front and what we'll see is more representative democracy and state legislatures many of which have had partisan gerrymandering and being as extreme as possible on these laws because they can be because they don't necessarily need to translate the nuances of their constituents because they are gerrymandered and they reflect the most extreme ideals of the republican party in those states. >> so, mike, you raised the fact that what happened in kansas was a big warning shot for republicans and your thought is it would have been and they also had this incredibly publicized

case that is another thing that happened in that state and they decided to go forward with it, and other republicans are smoking the same thing and you have stacy abrams on tv over the weekend, making the point that we've all been bandied about, i want to play stacy abrams and we'll talk about it on the other side. >> i would never underplay how important it is for us to think about putting, you know, money in people's pockets and putting a roof over their heads, but we know for women these abortion rights -- fights are about their ability to control their lives to participate in the economy and to determine whether forced pregnancy is in their future. so, yes, i would urge every voter to think about the economy is going to go up and down and these laws when they become solidified change the future for every woman that you know. >> mike, again, republicans see the flashing warning signs expect they're not taking their foot off the gas, and they're

slamming on the accelerator and going through the brick wall. what do you think the consequences are of a highly energized and very large majority and not just in blue states and in red states and others how can it affect the midterms? is stacy abrams right? >> that's a question with a lot of parts to. these legislatures lag the voters. so they will react to the voters when they start seeing empty seats next to them where their buddy used to be. what happens in the election? traditionally, there have been a lot of people with pro-choice opinions and a majority in many places, most, but they're not single-issue voters and they don't vote on abortion issues because they thought the status quo was safe. now the status quo is under threat. how many of those voters and by the way, a seek red political fact, the most pro-choice in america is not women. we keep saying that. it's young men and the biggest problem they have in the off

year is to get young voters it turn out. when they get a surge both men and women who are acting single-issue be on this and now they have the climate story to tell which is shr, shr pushback and they might have against the economic angle. we're in a new era, under traditional abortion politics one, now we have indicates they would be and the legislatures are rethinking the last couple of elections in their career. so it will be fascinating to watch this turnout. if you didn't have the big inflation anger and those problems, it would be a huge factor. it's balanced out two massive forces coming together in the philly, atlanta and other suburbs and we will see. no lack of energy. >> mike, will you be doing any waterskiing out there in lake winnipesaukee with the romneys?

>> i may drop by, but i'm laying my own 2024 effort and i'll run and eliminate the middle man. stay tuned. we're starting to organize. >> enjoy the granite state while you're up there. melissa murray, thank you for being on the show. up next, we have donald trump and the generals he used to refer to as my generals. news of more tension between those two parties and what the president wanted a big flashy military parade down the streets of washington. one general, one of his generals had to remind him that's what dictators do and we'll talk to one of the reporters behind that fantastic new scoop coming up. dt fantastic new scoop coming up.

oh, that i can't believe i scored this price feeling! well believe it baby! because wayfair always delivers. the look you want at the prices you want. so you can have the home you want! see we told you. wayfair always delivers small prices for big dreams. ♪ wayfair you've got just what i need ♪ (vo) what can a nationwide 5g network from t-mobile for business do for your business? unlock new insights and efficiency-right now. allow monitoring of productivity at remote job sites, with next-generation bandwidth. enable ai cameras that spot factory issues in real time, using next-generation speed. and deliver ultra-capacity 5g coverage that's years ahead of the competition. t-mobile for business has 5g that's ready right now.

non-gaming tribes have been left in the dust. wealthy tribes with big casinos make billions, while small tribes struggle in poverty. prop 27 is a game changer. 27 taxes and regulates online sports betting to fund permanent solution to homelessness. while helping every tribe in california. so who's attacking prop 27? wealthy casino tribes who want all the money for themselves

support small tribes, address homelessness. vote yes on 27.

we have so many of our cabinet members here. i see my generals -- the generals that will keep us so safe. >> all i can do is ask my generals. >> i have great generals that are great generals. these are warriors. my generals and my military they have decision-making ability. >> my generals, and it's a pet phrase of trump's. it always sounded a little strange coming from president bone spurs, but then he also said my african-americans. what are you going to do? donald trump just didn't get it when it comes to the military from peter baker and susan glasser in their forthcoming book -- i cannot wait for this

book. "the divider," trump in the white house, 2017 to 2021. you can pre-order it now. it's on amazon. here is the excerpt published today in "the new yorker." the president's loud complaint to john kelly one day was typical. you f-ing generals. why can't you be like the german generals. >> the german generals in world war ii. you do know they tried to kill hitler three times and almost pulled it off. no, no, they were -- and he was never going to get because that's not lou it works here. joining us now that bock's co-author peter baker, white house correspondent for "the new york times" and ben rhodes both msnbc contributor.

peter, congratulations is premature, but you are getting plaudits for this reporting. i want to ask you about milley and i want you to talk about the broader perspective of how trump's relationship with these military people who he referred to as his generals and how that evolved over his four years in office? >> it's very interesting, of course, john, and ben knows a lot about the civil-military tension. his president had tensions with his generals as well, but president trump viewed generals as, you know, people who should be politically loyal to him. he viewed the military as the worry among the generals as a political instrument. that's what they were afraid of and that's what they didn't want to slap and that's why you saw general mark milley and retired admirals like john kelly and general silva, and they all pushed back on trump's vision of the military for his own purpose.

that's not been the history of the military in the united states and it's different than a lot of countries around the world and it was something that they felt bound to resist in a commander in chief who didn't seem to get that. >> ben, it's not just that he thought he wanted political loyalty. he thought they were his pets. you remember in the beginning of the administration, general mad dog mattis. he worked for barack obama. compare and contrast about the way barack obama thought about his generals with the way donald trump did. >> well, it was quite different. [ laughter ] >> there were always civil military tengs about things and in the obama administration, occasionally there were disagreements about policy and the amount of troops in afghanistan and obama would run a process to get to the end point of what the size of surge would be in afghanistan, but that's very different than the reporting in peter and susan's book and the trend in the trump

years which was it's not just that he wanted to exert policy control over them which is always a tension between generals and civilian leaders, he really wanted them to just do his bidding and be seen as an extension of his personal interest and one thing that president obama and past presidents saw is that the united states military is the united states military. it's not barack obama's military or donald trump's military or george bush's military. those generals, you know, most of them served before and after president obama. they took an oath to defend this country and that goes all of the way down to the private, out in the field and with trump, keep in mind, it wasn't just about policy. it was about a personal political things where generals get very uncomfortable like being in a parade in front of trump to serve his political interests for clearing a square or lafayette square and that's where the difference comes in most acutely. he wanted them to do his political bidding and most ominously, we still don't know the bottom of what was going on

around january 6th where the military could have been enlisted for his schemes. >> peter, just because ben raises is i'll read another excerpt here which relates specifically to the question of trump wanting to see the military parade after he saw one in france that he liked and here's another quote, i didn't grow up in the united states. portugal was about dictatorships and it was about showing people the guns and in this country. you tonight like the idea, he said, incredulous. no, selva said, it's what dictators do. i wonder, peter, whether it's your impression that arguing with donald trump over doing something by saying it's what dictators do, whether that would be a thing that would cause trump to change his mind or

whether trump's attitude was yeah, that's kind of why i want to do it. >> i'm sure he thought they were overstating things or being difficult or what have you. in preparation of the excerpt whether he had any comment and he decided that all of these generals were incompetent and decided therefore no longer to rely on them, but it is because they didn't share the same values, right? ben's point is right. generals do kick up a fuss sometimes when they disagree about policy, but once a decision is made they follow it so long as it's legal. milley said i'll follow orders as long as they're legal and what he felt compelled to resist was an illegitimate use of the military as a political force, what he considered to be a violation, in his view, of the constitution that would include using the military to stay in office which was something that seemed like a very real possibility to the generals who run our pentagon in that

post-election period, and i think that that -- that sense of anxiety that they felt really speaks to just how close to the edge we came in that period. >> well, that is exactly when we want to talk about on the other side of the break. peter, you're staying. ben, you're staying. when we come back there we'll have more scoop from the scoopy new book, mark milley and his fears about the national security threat posed by donald trump and the possibility that was bigger than any of us knew at the time or even know now. that is next. stick around. that is next stick around i think i changed my mind about these glasses.

yeah, it happens. that's why visionworks gives you 100 days to change your mind. it's simple. anything else i can help you with? like what? visionworks. see the difference. (woman vo) sailing a great river past extraordinary landscapes into the heart of iconic cities is a journey for the curious traveler, one that many have yet to discover. exploring with viking brings you closer to the world, to the history, the culture, the flavors, a serene river voyage on an elegant viking longship. learn more at viking.com

i'm greg, i'm 68 years old. i do motivational speakingn elegant viking longship. in addition to the substitute teaching. i honestly feel that that's my calling-- to give back to younger people. i think most adults will start realizing that they don't recall things as quickly as they used to or they don't remember things as vividly as they once did. i've been taking prevagen for about three years now. people say to me periodically, "man, you've got a memory like an elephant." it's really, really helped me tremendously. prevagen. healthier brain. better life. [lazer beam and sizzling sounds] ♪♪ kids don't always take the best care of school supplies.

so save money shopping back to school on amazon. while they... 0oh... uh... figure their stuff out. i got tai last december. i've spent almost every minute with her since. when i first brought her home, she was eating little brown pieces in a bag and it was just what kind of came recommended. i just always thought, “dog food is dog food” i didn't really piece together that dogs eat food. as soon as we brought the farmer's dog in, her skin was better, she was more active, high-quality poops. if i can invest in her health and be proactive, i think it's worth it. see the benefits of fresh food at betterforthem.com

thanks to that reporting from peter baker and susan glasser, we know about an unsent letter of resignation written by mark milley, then the chairman of the joint in the days after donald trump's infamous march on lafayette square. "the events of the last couple weeks have caused me to do deep soul searching and i can no longer support and execute your orders as chairman of the joint chiefs of staff. i believe that you have made a concerted effort over time to politicize the united states military. i thought that i could change that. i've come to the realization that i can not and i need to step aside and let someone else try to do it." we are back with peter baker and ben rhodes and peter, i'll ask you, a very fraught moment, and mark milley becomes an important player in history when we get to january of 2021.

talk a little bit more about what the general is going through at that moment and what turned out to be kind of on the line in his decision, ultimately, to not turn that letter in and to stick around. >> of course, people remember that general milley and defense secretary esper were brought along with the president as he walked across lafayette square to the church to hold up a bible, and both milley and esper felt very uncomfortable about this. they tried to peel away from the cameras because they realized it was an inappropriate role for them to take and they apologized and disowned their participation with it publicly afterwards. we knew at the time, i think, that general milley had thought about resignation. that was reported by some of my colleagues but i don't think we had -- when i know we didn't have was the actual letter he wrote. the kind of letter i don't think any general i can think of has ever written to a commander in chief, and it said, very clearly, how he saw the threats to the country. now, he didn't submit it.

he put it in a drawer. when he decided to do was to, quote, fight from the inside, as he put it. he decided that he would stay and do what he could to protect the military against what he saw as the politicization of the armed forces, and he saw what was coming ahead. he looked and saw november and not just november but december and january, what was coming behind that election and worried about what the potential was, so he put the resignation letter in a drawer and decided to fight from the inside. >> peter, why didn't he send it? >> well, you know, he can't send it because he decided that basically he could do more good and this is a lot of people in that administration came to this conclusion, rightly or wrongly, by staying there and whoever came after him might be more willing to accede to the wishes of a commander in chief that he considered to be dangerous. so, it was a calculated decision, obviously he's a man of great ambition, wanted to -- he wanted his position to be in the first place, he sort of -- he was seen as campaigning for it when trump first appointed

him, but at this point, he was also juggling the question of what his responsibility was as the leading general of the armed forces and where his obligations stood in terms of protecting it from what he saw as an unprecedented kind of danger. >> well, turns out that danger was pretty -- was even greater than mark milley thought that summer, the summer of 2020. and ben, i want to read you a little bit more of peter and susan's reporting talking about milley's worries after the 2020 election. here's the quote. "two nightmare scenarios kept running through milley's mind, one that trump would spark an external crisis to divert attention or create a pretext for a power grab at home. the other was that donald trump would manufacture a domestic crisis to justify ordering the military into the streets to prevent the transfer of power." i'm curious about, you know, ben, as you now know all the history here, seems like milley was right to worry about these things and i'm curious about

how -- about whether you think -- how important it was, potentially, that milley was still in that job in potentially keeping some of those worries from becoming -- from moving from hypothetical to real. >> i think it was hugely important, and part of what we learned is it is a slippery slope. it starts with parades, which is what -- the general is right. that's what dictators do to intimidate people. then it can go to clearing the square. that's what dictators do too. they don't just use police. they trot out the military and the generals to show they're going to bust heads in the streets, and then it can go to something as fundamental as the peaceful transfer of power, and if you look at that period of time, john, we focused a lot on dhs and secret service recently. there were some very strange people over at the pentagon in the transition period. you may recall that trump installed some real loyalists, like people who cut their teeth working for devin nunes on the house intelligence committee. he put those people in charge of the civilian pentagon, but what he did not have is people like that in charge of the uniformed

military. and i think part of what's so chilling is you know from reporting that there were people like michael flynn encouraging trump to make use of the military in his election denialism and effort to subvert the peaceful transfer of power, and i think what we all have to bear in mind and the reason why books like peter and susan's matter so much is not just a historical record. this is a live question. if trump comes back the next time, i think what we're going to start from is square one is going to be the kinds of people that were there at the end at the pentagon, civilian roles, and potentially in uniformed military's role. that's clearly the kind of military that trump wants. he clearly wants my generals, my pentagon. and i think that's what's at stake in american politics over the course of the next two and a half years. >> peter, real quick, you know, one of the things you report is that on january 3rd, milley overheard trump talking to the man who was then the secretary of defense, guy named christopher miller, who i swear to god none of us could pick him out of the line-up, he was defense secretary for 11 seconds and he's exactly the kind of

person that ben is talking about. he heard trump asking miller if there were, quote, enough people to make sure it's safe for my people. you know, we know that milley testified -- has testified before the 1/6 committee. is there stuff you think that milley -- that we don't know about right now that he's told the 1/6 committee that's of great consequence? is there more stuff on this in your forthcoming book? >> yeah, certainly, well, we've said we have on this in the book, but -- in this excerpt, but i don't know if there's more said. we don't have the full story and i think from throughout this presidency, we tried to answer the questions the best we could in our reporting, but we don't have subpoena power. we can't force anybody to testify. what the january 6th committee hopefully is going to offer us is an even more thorough and complete account, including the questions that you ask, which i think are very, very vital. >> peter baker, thank you for being on the show. i want to thank you in advance.

you and your wife, susan glasser, what a great power team, matrimonial team, they have a book coming out called "the divider: trump in the white house 2017 to 2021." it's -- you're going to want to read this book if you care about history, you care about the future of the republic. ben rhodes also, thank you for spending time with us as well. quick break for us. s as wel. quick break for us big lie is on the ballot again in another batch of gop primary contests tomorrow. that story, we'll get to it right after this break. , we'll right after this break

okay everyone, our mission is to provide complete balanced nutrition for strength and energy. woo hoo! ensure, complete balanced nutrition with 27 vitamins and minerals. and ensure complete with 30 grams of protein. ♪ ♪

i just always thought, “dog food is dog food” i didn't really piece together that dogs eat food. as soon as we brought the farmer's dog in, her skin was better, she was more active. if i can invest in her health and be proactive, i think it's worth it. visit betterforthem.com

♪♪

i don't care what the race is, we're still divided in this country. i look for moderates in both parties, and i think that's extinct, so it's a shame we've gotten to this so polarized. >> i'm going go with trump. that's just -- that's my thing. >> i'm tired of politicians. i'm going to vote for the nonpolitician. >> aloha and namaste, everyone, it is 5:00 p.m. in new york city. i'm john heilemann here for nicole wallace. get ready. i'm here all week. we are exactly three months out from the 2022 midterm elections. historic, important, consequential, never bigger. this hour, we'll be taking a look at developments in three key battleground states, not just this fall but in 2024 also and in wisconsin, michigan, and florida, three of the most important states. all of them could have huge implications for the future of

our country and our democracy and of course, of course, the former president and his big lie about the 2020 election feature prominently in all of them. we will start in the badger state. you just heard from a few voters there in that sound byte that we played, a state whose 2020 election results were and still are a massive fixation for the former president, who was from waukasha county too. 2020, former president lost the state by about 20,000 votes, and despite there being no evidence, and i mean, no, nil, nada, zero, zilch evidence of fraud, he's still calling on the state to decertify the votes for joe biden. that's been embraced by the president's base. "the new york times" out with reporting on how republican voters are demanding an impossible task. "mr. trump's supporters have turned fury over his 2020 election loss and the misguided belief that its results can be

nullified, into central campaign issues in the republican primary for the governor of wisconsin, a battleground state won by razor thin margins. gop candidates have been left whether choosing to tell voters they are wrong, which is what they would have to do if they cared about the truth, or engage in the fiction that something can be done to reverse mr. trump's defeat." we are seeing that play out now among gop gubernatorial candidates ahead of tomorrow's primary. the trump-backed tim michaels said he's willing to consider legislation to decertify but largely shied away from discussing the results. meanwhile, his opponent, rebecca clay dm fish, who proudly touts her support of trump, she finds decertifying to be crossing the line. clayfish, who has endorsements from former vp mike pence and scott walker, says, "i'm not saying that the passion is imaginary. i'm not saying that the mistrust is imaginary. i'm saying the idea that you can disavow the constitution and statutes and do things that are not articulated anywhere in the law is a lost cause, and there

is no path that is articulated to do that." for a friend of this show and former conservative talk radio host, charlie sykes, points out the current rift in the party. "this is all another indication of how trump's influence can be damaging. it's going to allow maga world to label kleefish as a mike pence rino which would have been inconceivable a year ago." wisconsin state assembly speaker robin boss, who has been a long-time target of the former president, refused to cave to trump's pressure to decertify the 2020 results. trump called voss a rino, big surprise, and urged voters to support voss's challenger. joining us this hour, "washington post" senior national political correspondent ashley parker. also with us, neal katyal, former acting solicitor general of the united states, now a law professor at georgetown university and former rnc chairman michael steele, a man

who, i mean, in this chair, last week, i mean, has anybody ever done it better? i mean, other than nicole wallace? nobody's done it better. >> just following your lead, brother. >> michael steele, i need you to come up here and sit with me to teach me how it's done. but i'm going to start with ashley parker anyway because you're the one who is out there in the world covering politics, and i am, as you know, i have historic ancestors in wisconsin. i care about what happens in that state. it's a really important state in terms of understanding who's going to be the next president of the united states. tell us what's going on there relative to the big lie if and how it is playing out. we've done a little survey of it here in that script read but i'm curious what your impression is about what the state of play on those issues heading into the primaries tomorrow. >> well, again, wisconsin is just the latest state that has become sort of a litmus test, not just for the power that former president trump has over the party, but really for, again, his litmus test that any

candidate he supports has to support his assertion of the big lie, which is the false and baseless claim that the 2020 election was somehow stolen, and then in wisconsin, you're seeing it go a step further, this idea that not only do these candidates have to express fealty to the idea that it was stolen, but they have to claim to be able to do something that they literally have no power to do, which is to decertify the results of an election held nearly two years ago. in layman's terms, what former president trump is asking them to do is like a student government election in third grade where he's asking them to promise the students, you know, chocolate milk in the cafeteria and recess all day. you are seeing some of these candidates do just that. so, regardless of who wins on primary day, in certain ways, former president trump has already won in that he's just created this as a debate or a discussion or a thing that, you

know, adult politicians are able to say with a straight face. >> neal, i ask you, as ashley points out, this is an election that took place 21 months ago, and the former president and his supporters are demanding, still, that it -- that somehow it be overturned, to this day, they're still asking for it. you know, you're a super smart guy, and i -- you know the law really well. i can't help but think that you watch these events unfold in our politics and you think to yourself that there could be some kind of a way to, like, decertify these arguments, like just kind of a priori, they should be knocked out of our politics. this is not a question of opinion or where you stand on public policy. this is not a doable thing. why are we discussing it in any context right now in the state of wisconsin? >> right, namaste, john, great to see you, and i completely agree, and i think ashley's litmus test, i'd like to just put a spin on it because i think it's, you know, this wisconsin primary is a really good illustration of how trump and

the republican party have succeeded in normalizing a brand of basically post-truth politics that allows them to blow off facts that they find inconvenient. and so, you say, there should be some way to decertify these claims, and there is. 62 different courts, federal and state, including the u.s. supreme court, which is not exactly in joe biden's pocket, ruled against them time and time again. and so, the -- what the trump people are saying is, well, look, the wisconsin supreme court, which is quite a -- it's a very conservative court, in july, said that the drop boxes that were used in the 2020 election were illegal, and these were the dropboxes that were used during the covid pandemic. and the result of this, they says, is, well, let's throw out the hundreds of thousands of people who voted that way, which is an unconscionable argument. in elections law, the touchstone is always trying to give effect to the will of the voters, and they just want to toss out all these ballots. now, that's something that might work in, like, the soviet union,

but it's as profoundly un-american as you can get. and as ashley says, even if it were right, there's no backsies here. there's no way to get a redo and do the election again. you know, this is basically an empty political process by these people in wisconsin. there's no mechanism whatsoever to take back the certification. these promises are literally ones that these candidates can not keep, which takes, i guess, election politics to a whole other level. >> i keep thinking they're living on another timeline or something that we don't know about, like the sideways universe in "lost" or something. but here's my question for you, michael steele. being someone who understood the republican party back when you were chairman of it, you know what wisconsin's like. so here's the governor. a democrat, i'm going to read a little "new york times." here's what the situation is with this sitting governor. the "times" says, "the winner of the primary will face a democrat who's vetoed more than a dozen voting bills passed by the

republican-controlled legislature in the last two years, because the gop's large majorities and the gerrymandered legislature, a republican governor would be given a wide berth to change how the state casts and counts votes in the 2024 presidential election." here he is talking about the stakes here. let's talk about that. >> i believe they will continue doing this until donald trump is six feet under. if a republican ends up as governor of the state of wisconsin, we will see elections change to the point where the legislature makes the final decision, and that should scare the living crap out of everybody. >> so, michael, like, in the old days, and i mean, even 2016, people forget, donald trump didn't win the republican primary in wisconsin in 2016. ted cruz did. and you would go up there and you would talk to republicans of the charlie sykes ilk, and they would be like, wisconsin republicans are a much more center, this is not the crazy wing of the party. and now, you're seeing this kind of behavior, and you're seeing these efforts again and again,

what tony evers is talking about. people used to ask, what's the matter with kansas? i want to know, what the the matter with the badger state? what's going on in wisconsin that the party has gone so far off the rails and what does that portend for 2024? >> well, it's not just wisconsin, but it's pretty much an infection that is throughout the country. where it emanates from is this idea of how we gain power. this isn't about governing. this is not -- there are no real legitimate concerns here. when you ask these folks, okay, show me where there was the fraud or when people say, we want to address irregularities in the election. okay, which irregularities, specifically, are you referring to that occurred in your state or in that county or in that particular jurisdiction? they can't point to those. and when they do, ironically enough, the person who's in violation of the law is a trump republican. and so, the reality of it is,

you have this narrative that has formed and been created by a rancorous, irritated, irritable base that wants to own the libs, and the leadership doesn't have the moxie to stand in the breach and say, that's not how we govern. i mean, we can do politics that way, but that's not how we're going to govern. so, the governor, evers, is absolutely right. if given the power, what you're going to look at is changing the rules of the game so that they can keep that power, not so they can govern better. and that's what voters need to -- how voters, i think, need to distinguish what these candidates are saying they're going to do, because they cannot change the law. they certainly can't change the constitution. but if given the power, they can at least change the law on their way to ultimately trying to

change the constitution, whether of their state or of the country. >> so, ashley, i want to drill down a little bit more on this race between kleefish and michaels. you've got a situation, your paper tries to -- does some work on this here. i'll read from it here, the headline is, "trump's pick for wisconsin governor won't weigh in on the 2020 results." this is donald trump's person, michaels. "michaels avoided addressing whether he would certify the 2020 presidential election or attempt the legally impossible feat of reversing trump's 2020 loss. michaels's profile contrasts with those of other gubernatorial hopefuls that trump has endorsed." we talked about a little bit about kleefish, who's going to get labeled a rino, because she's trying to -- doesn't want to touch this with a barge pole. but michaels is not, like, as far off the deep end on this as trump-backed candidates in places like arizona and pennsylvania, which we'll talk about in a second. give me a sense of what -- of the way in which this dynamic of the republican civil war within

this primary is maybe a little bit different than it is in some of the other states that we have looked carefully at in the past few weeks and will in the weeks ahead. >> well, it's twofold. there's a third candidate in this race who is sort of even more conspiracy theory-ist, who former president trump did not endorse, so that's notable in and of itself. because one thing motivating trump, of course, is that in addition to wanting republicans to jump through hoops to justify his litmus test, he also wants to win, and he wants to be viewed as a kingmaker, and if you do a bunch of just utterly impractical conspiracy theorist endorsements, that's not the best method for winning, not even always in all of these republican primaries. and secondly, what you're seeing in wisconsin, which is different from some states, is there is at least a private and increasingly public acknowledgement among republicans that even if they sort of have to pay lip service

to what they would do about an election nearly two years ago, that this is not what voters want to hear. they prefer issues looking forward. they, you know, in the same way that president biden is now struggling with, for instance, strengthening nato and the transatlantic alliance, all sort of big victories, when voters care about gas prices, republican voters also care about gas prices, perhaps, a bit more than they care about, again, an election two years ago that they can't change. so, that is what you're seeing in this race. you're seeing a republican candidate in michaels who obviously wanted trump's endorsement where it is beneficial, but also understands the practical reality of winning, first of all, a primary and then potentially having to win a general where this is even less popular. >> neal, you mentioned the ruling by the wisconsin supreme court that said that the way, basically, the election was conducted in 2020 was kosher. it's also mentioned how

conservative they are. they also, in that -- i think in that same ruling, they had some things to say about how drop boxes work that have going forward effects in terms of both this primary and other elections in the future. why don't you talk about that and how the court -- the way in which the courts are getting into -- dipping into the question of election administration could change significantly how elections are run in wisconsin going forward. >> the wisconsin supreme court did say that these drop boxes, when they were used during the pandemic, were problematic. the remedy, of course, was not to just disenfranchise and toss out all of those votes, but that is an illustration of these kind of some conservative state supreme courts wanting to police and prevent people from voting. whether during the pandemic or otherwise. this is going to raise its head, john, very much in this north carolina case that's my case, so i just want to disclose that now, the supreme court's going to be hearing in december, which asks the question, can state

courts have any role to play in federal elections or not? the republican party over many years has been investing in state legislative control to the point of cutting out state courts or trying to cut out state courts from elections altogether. and if they succeed in that, it will just be state legislatures and no one else that will be able to control the rules for elections, throw out ballots for whatever reason, provide remedies and the like. >> michael, to the extent that there's a -- that this -- that there is this tension and it's happening in wisconsin, again, maybe a little less dramatically than it has been in some other republican states. we saw the craziness that's happened in arizona, where things are really at a very high pitch right now, you know, you've got on the democratic side, you got mandela barnes, who's going to win their democratic primary because everybody else has decided to get out of the race. strong candidates decided they were going to clear the field for what they perceive to be the

strongest democratic candidate in the race. i'm curious what you think, in a divisive gop primary, in a state that's this finely balanced, how much of an advantage is it to have democratic unity, totally backing barnes, versus what the potential aftereffects of this primary will be in the republican party? >> john, you just touched on, for me, as a former county, state, national chairman, the essence of the dynamics of any election cycle is the ability of your opponent to recalibrate and to do so in a way in which they can position themselves, you know, to be in a strong position but then to be up against an opposition that, at every turn, seemingly, makes your approach to the general election that much easier, which is why, going back to the last hour, with you and mike murphy, i have a slightly different take on how november could shape up for

democrats in the house. and it's largely along this idea. what you see the democrats doing in wisconsin, what they have done in utah with the race of evan mcmullen, is to think strategically about, okay, can we win this state? can we win a statewide race here in utah? no. but a reasonable republican can, and so -- who's now an independent player. can we position ourselves in a state, as you mention, like in wisconsin, where the margins are thin so that we can take advantage of the opportunities? yes. because of the types of candidates the democrats are coming up against in these -- that will be in position from republicans in general elections, not just in wisconsin but around the country, has given them, coupled with the national narratives on abortion, the economy, et cetera, puts them, i think, in a very, very strong position. but here's the caveat. the democrats know how to do

strategiry, right? that's my favorite bushism. if you can't do strategiry, if you can't be smart and strategic when you get to september and october, and executing and supporting candidates like barnes, then all of this is for nothing. >> ashley parker, michael steele, great to see you both. thank you for starting us off. neal katyal, my friend, sticking around. after the break, we're going to go to michigan where we are counting -- we're continuing our tour of the united states battleground states, now being overtaken by big lie politics. why republican candidate for attorney general there has been implicated in the investigation of an election security breach. shock. horror. plus, the florida prosecutor who was sidelined over his position on the state's abortion ban. he says he's not going down without a fight, and he's joining us to talk more about his battle with ron desantis later in the hour. and first we had covid. then we had monkeypox. and now, a resurgence of polio?

we're bringing in a doctor to help us make sense of this onslaught of public health challenges. "deadline white house" continuing after a quick break, so please do not go anywhere. q so please do not go ywanhere make your home totally you. i did with wayfair. sometimes i'm a homebody. can never have too many pillows. sometimes i'm all business. wooo! i'm a momma 24/7. seriously with the marker? i'm a bit of a foodie. perfect. but not much of a chef. yes! ♪ wayfair you've got just what i need. ♪ mission control, we are go for launch. ♪

um, she's eating the rocket. ♪ lunchables! built to be eaten. ♪ i'm mark and i live in vero beach, florida. lunchables! built to be eaten. my wife and i have three children. ruthann and i like to hike. we eat healthy. we exercise. i noticed i wasn't as sharp as i used to be. my wife introduced me to prevagen and so i said "yeah, i'll try it out." i noticed that i felt sharper, i felt like i was able to respond to things quicker. and i thought, yeah, it works for me. prevagen. healthier brain. better life. it's 5:00 a.m., and i feel like i can do anything. we've been coming here, since 1868. there's a lot of cushy desk jobs out there, but this is my happy place. there are millions of ways to make the most of your land. learn more at deere.com

in the great state of michigan, there is a all too typical tale of republican hypocrisy and election denying playing out, which may be getting a big liar in big trouble. this time, it's trump-backed soon to be gop nominee for the state's top law enforcement position, michigan attorney general dana nessel requesting a

special prosecutor to investigate matthew. trump continues to push, quote, fix that absolutely phony fraud. turns out, according to nessel, he is one of the prime instigators -- that's in quotes -- and orchestraters of a potentially criminal coordinated plan to gain access to voting machines that were seized illegally and tampered with. joining us, reuters reporter nathan lane, who has covered this story, and neal katyal is back with us. nathan, tell us about the state of play here on this story. it's obviously a big deal. deperno has a lot of questions. he's an election denier. a lot of people have said he's one of the republican election-denying nuts who donald trump is going to help become nominees. but now he's in trouble with dana nessel. walk us through the story. >> sure. so, it's -- i don't know how unprecedented it is, but it's certainly unusual, and it's not

every day that you get a sitting a.g. essentially alleging that her opponent in the upcoming race in 2022 has probably committed a crime, but that's what happened today. they have been -- the a.g., nessel, has been investigating these incidents of unauthorized individuals essentially going around to clerks in different areas of michigan, mostly rural michigan, and trying to get those clerks to give them access to those voting machines. and what we found out, through police reports, talking to the clerks, other reporting, is that they've -- some clerks gave in and essentially gave their vote tabulators to these people, these people that are working with matthew deperno, and they took those tabulators to somewhere in oakland county, and took them apart, examined them, and then in some cases used that

information to create reports, and those reports were filed in the lawsuit that matthew deperno brought against the county and the state. >> so, dana nessel, i'll read in her request for a special prosecutor now that that nathan has talked about the tabulator. she says, all five tabulators were taken to hotels and/or airbnbs in oakland county where they broke into the tabulators and performed tests on the equipment. this is what nathan was just talking about. it was determined during the investigation that deperno was present at a hotel room during such test. so there's lots of questions here, neal, as nathan says, it's not a common thing to see and she's asking for a special prosecutor to insulate herself from the politics of this. knowing what you know now, is it more likely that deperno ends up on the ballot or in jail before the election in november? >> yeah, no, i think it's very likely that, you know, that this

is real serious criminal liability for mr. deperno. i think he's going to learn that the way to trump's heart is going to put him behind bars or in jeopardy of that, because look, this guy is running to be the top legal officer in the state. he's being accused of helping steal these voting machines to examine them in hotel rooms, and you know, the state attorney general is supposed to be above reproach, the kind of top legal officer in the state, and it's a pretty good rule of thumb that you don't want your top legal officer in the state to be under criminal investigation, i guess, unless you're in texas where paxton is going through this right now. and so i think what this attorney general did, i don't think she had any choice. you've got these accusations. they're really serious. yes, it happens to be against her political opponent -- a political opponent, but you also -- your primary goal -- your primary job as attorney general is to enforce the law, so what she did was, say, i'm not going to do this myself because of a perceived conflict of interest.

i'm going to go and get a special prosecutor, someone from outside of her chain of command to do this. and that's something that we've done at the federal level. i worked on those special counsel regulations at the federal level. she's doing something very similar at the state level. she's trying to depoliticize the issue as much as she can. of course, there are going to be inherent politics involved in something like this. that's not her fault. that's the fault of the person who's, you know, taken all these actions, matthew deperno, to be in that situation. i do have one kind of other question, though, john, about this, which is, these allegations are really serious, and i do wonder, where is the u.s. justice department in this? >> yes. >> because u.s. justice department does have authority over voting, and you know, that, of course, would remove any sort of political issue about one candidate versus another. so, it's obviously a state crime, but it also very well may be federal. and so, i'm interested to hear what the justice department's doing, if anything, in this area. >> yeah, if someone in the justice department is listening

to neal katyal, you can call me right now. my phone number is widely available. give me a call, let me know what you're doing. nathan, i want to ask you, i'll come back to the politics here of this. neal -- this is going to be a mess because republicans will say that this, no matter what nessel does on this, whether she asks for a special prosecutor or not, it's politically motivated, there's no way around that. she went after him last week on steve bannon, on what deperno told steve bannon on a podcast. she tweeted this. "republican a.g. candidate matthew deperno wants to disenfranchise hundreds of thousands of urban voters." you got donald trump out there saying, you've got to have deperno. we need him. this is the somebody that can fix it. i talked him into doing this. this is going to be a national race with national focus. i'm curious how you think the politics of it will play out in that context because there's no -- she's doing the right thing, legally, if she thinks she's got this case, but man, it's going to mess with the politics in this race in a big

way. >> right, right. well, it's really hard to tell. i'll just point to one thing, which was interesting. matt deperno has obviously left out -- sent out a tweet, sent out some statements basically calling the investigation politically motivated, but he also sent out a tweet trying to raise money off of it, help him, you know, quote, unquote, fight back, so i think he can position himself or he's likely to position himself as framing this as a politically motivated investigation, perhaps it helps him raise money, and in this political environment, who knows how that will play with the voters. i did also want to add one thing. it's interesting that if you look at the petition that a.g. nessel sort of -- in which she played out her allegations, it's sparse. but it's not as if, at least in the a.g.'s mind, there's really

any question here. if you just read -- i'm just going to read from it. she said the investigation has been -- now been presented to the criminal trials and appeals division seeking approval for criminal charges against the above listed individuals. that's nine individuals with matt deperno at the top. so, based on that document, and based on what she's saying, she is already -- they have already made a determination that charges should be brought. i guess with respect to the politics, it's up in the air how quickly those charges might be brought, if they are brought. >> neal, i have a very quick question for you. we learned that doug mastriano, trump's pick for governor in pennsylvania, the republican nominee, and noted election denier, is also going to be -- is going to be called before the 1/6 committee. he's going to do a virtual deposition in the very limited time that we have left, what do you think the 1/6 committee will want to know from doug mastriano? >> i don't know, actually, john, so that's not something, you know, i have been privy to.

i'm not sure what they're looking for. i did want to say one thing about the attorney general of michigan and nessel. i think it's actually, you know, if she were just operating politically, i don't think she would have sought a special prosecutor. she'd have left these charges to cloud around him, because they're not going to be resolved before the election. so, what she has done here is actually the responsible thing by moving the case forward, opening herself up to these attacks and this guy can run against her on that, but at the end of the day, she's done what law enforcement does every day in, day out, which is to say, i've got to do this. if this guy wins, then this law will not be enforced against him. he will control the prosecution of himself. that can't possibly be the way good justice is administered. >> well, it is the way that justice must be administered in donald trump's conception of the country. but hopefully that will be not the one that prevails. nathan layne and neal katyal, thank you. up next, the florida prosecutor who says he's being targeted by the thought police

at the hands of one governor ron desantis. f one governor ron desantis is it me or does everyone auditioning for this health insurance commercial look the same? it's not you. health insurance companies see us all the same. that's not good. well, except humana. they see me. after my back surgery, humana sent a home health nurse for five days. helped me get set up, showed me how to manage my meds... ...even sent me a week's worth of healthy frozen meals. get out. good i-dea. better care begins with listening. humana. a more human way to healthcare. sadie?

(woman vo) sailing a great river past extraordinary landscapes into the heart of iconic cities is a journey for the curious traveler, one that many have yet to discover. exploring with viking brings you closer to the world, to the history, the culture, the flavors, a serene river voyage on an elegant viking longship. learn more at viking.com we just moved. so there's millions of - dahlias in bloom. over nine acres. when we started, we grew a quarter of an acre. now i'm taking on new projects on the regular. there are millions of ways to make the most of your land. learn more at deere.com

after effectively being suspended for saying that he would refuse to enforce a 15-week abortion ban in florida and speaking out against laws that are not yet on the books, that would criminalize gender-affirming healthcare, our next guest, a twice-elected state attorney in the state of florida says that he's not going down without a fight against

what he calls the ron desantis thought police. joining us now, that very ousted state attorney for hillsboro county, florida, andrew warren. mr. warren, great to see you. i've been -- i want you to just explain, as best you can, to people what it is that you stand accused of doing by the governor, and try to give as fair an account of why he's doing this before we talk about why it's ridiculous. >> i'll try to be objective and present what it is before we get into how ridiculous it is. so, the governor came in and suspended me from office, blindsided me with a plot that had been hatched days, if not weeks, before, with no warning, to overturn a fair and free election. and he's saying that it's based on things that i have done and policies that i have enacted, not to prosecute certain types of cases. but in reality, it's about what i said. it's largely about my stance on

abortion and gender-affirming healthcare, and with regard to abortion, it concerns a 15-week abortion ban that has been found unconstitutional by the first judge who looked at it, and regarding gender-affirming healthcare, there's no law on the books in florida, so i'm being punished for not enforcing a law that doesn't even exist yet. >> yeah, and look, i mean, i think it's kind of an extraordinary thing. you're not at all alone. there's a joint statement that you were a signatory to along with 84 other attorneys against prosecuting on abortion. our legislatures may decide to criminalize personal healthcare decisions but we remain obligated to prosecute only those cases that serve the people. this makes a mockery of justice. prosecutors should not be part of that. so, this is not exactly -- you are not a rogue prosecutor here. you're one who's in some pretty good company, and importantly, as we said a second ago, you

made a statement. have you had any opportunity to prosecute a case under this abortion law that you have declined to prosecute? >> no, of course not. we haven't had a case come to us yet. >> and this is also the case in terms of -- >> that's what makes this -- >> go ahead. >> no, please, go ahead. that's what makes it what? >> that's what makes it so outrageous. this isn't about what i have done. this is the fact that we have been doing very forward-thinking things in hillsboro county to keep our crime rate low and the governor just disagrees with it. he disagrees with my opposition to bills that he supported which criminalize abortion, which criminalize transgender healthcare, laws, again, not even on the books yet in florida, but the implications are so far-reaching for this, because if a public official can't talk openly about a law that affects what that official's responsibilities are, then we have so much to fear here. i mean, what groups can only say

what king ron desantis, you know, allows? first it was businesses. then it was teachers. now public servants? who's next? >> can you explain the authority under which the governor has taken this action? i mean, on the face of it, for the reasons you're saying, again, there's one -- there's an abortion law that's on the books but is being -- has been declared unconstitutional by some authorities and is under -- is being contested. the gender legislation is not even become law yet. you're expressing opinions about what should and shouldn't be done. the governor has decided, not for the first time, but the first time related to you, that you should not be doing your job even though you were democratically elected in the job that you have. he's overriding the will of the people and saying, my view is what matters here, i disagree with this man and i'm going to suspend him. what's the actual mechanism by which the governor of florida has the ability to do this thing to you? >> well, he's claiming to have the power to do so based on the florida constitution. that gives him some authority to

suspend elected officials for drunkenness and being, you know, charged with a crime and complete dereliction of duty. but that's not what's happening here, right? i mean, this is about the governor trying to advance his own personal ambitions. he wants to run for president, so he gets to, you know, cast me down as some radical prosecutor. i'm a former federal prosecutor. i was elected twice in a purple county. we've worked with law enforcement here to keep the community safe and keep crime down. but facts don't matter for him, right? this is his alternative fact universe where he just gets to make things up and become the thought police, which really is sending a chill down the spine of every elected official in florida who now has to be careful what they say. >> i mean, look, you did a twitter video where you talked about how he was -- about how ron desantis is trying to overthrow democracy in florida. and you know, this is one of the trend lines with republicans these days is not having a great deal of respect for democracy.

this governor has also, you know, on -- when he decided to punish disney and take away its special tax status, he did that and admitted openly that the reason he was doing it wasn't because disney had actually violated any laws or done anything wrong but he heard some things on zooms with people in disney expressing opinions he didn't like, and he said, that's not the florida way of life, we're going to take away their tax status. the governor of florida is really -- thought police behavior. what are you doing to do about it? how are you going to win this battle not just for your own job but for the sake of what democratic principles should be in the state? >> you're exactly right. first of all, this goes way beyond me. this is not about one elected official being suspended. this is about overthrowing democracy in hillsboro and in florida. and we're going to fight back and fight back vigorously. we have a thorough defense of democracy that, you know, shreds apart his venezuelan-style edict. i invite people to come stand

with me at andrewwarrenfl.com because this is about more than me. this is about democracy in the state. and this implication that the governor can just pick and choose whoever he wants to serve in office and throw out elections is a full front assault on the rule of law and on our democracy. >> well, i wish you luck, because i do think it is -- it's not really -- it really isn't a matter of one elected official and it really isn't a matter of one issue. it really is a question of this governor who has decided that if he disagrees with you, he will use the power of the state to punish you, and at least in my understanding about how america's supposed to work, that's not really how, look, the kind of values and principles that the country is founded on. so, i would say this. if you were a republican or an independent or anybody else, it seems like you're fighting the good fight, so good luck with that. >> thank you so much. thanks for having me. >> andrew warren, thank you for spending time with us. the new public health

warning in new york about polio, yes, i just said polio. i didn't say covid. i didn't say monkeypox. i say, polio. that's what we're dealing with here. we'll talk about it after the break. here we'll talk about it after e th break. which side are you on? americans who believe liberty and justice are for all, or traitors inciting violence against our country and trying to take away our freedoms? which side are you on? people who work for a living and care for our families, or the trump republicans who block everything our families need?

this november, it's time to show which side you're on. vote for democrats. ff pac is responsible for the content of this ad. i grew up an athlete, i rode horses... i really do take care of myself. i try to stay in shape. that's really important, especially as you age. i noticed after kids that my body totally changed. i started noticing a little pudge. so i took action! coolsculpting targets, freezes and eliminates treated fat for good. no needles, no incisions. discuss coolsculpting with your provider. some common side effects include temporary numbness, discomfort and swelling. you've come this far... coolsculpting takes you further. visit coolsculpting.com kids, one year they want all dinosaurs stuff the next, camels. - llamas. - llamas. so save money shopping back to school on amazon. you sure that's not a camel? yeah. whatever you say. only at vanguard you're more than just an investor you're an owner. that means that your priorities are ours too.

our interactive tools and advice can help you build a future for the ones you love. that's the value of ownership. ♪ so i climbed into the cab, and then i settled down inside ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man ♪

♪ i've been everywhere, man ♪ ♪ of travel i've had my share, man ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere ♪ ♪♪ bubbles bubbles so many bubbles! as an expedia member you earn points on your travels, and that's on top of your airline miles. so you can go and see... or taste or do absolutely nothing with all those bubbles. without ever wondering if you're getting the most out of your trip. because you are. in case covid's persistence and the monkeypox outbreak weren't enough to keep you freaked out, we now have health officials in new york warning about another potential deadly disease outbreak.

new york's health commissioner announcing that a case of polio county north of new york city could be just the tip of an iceberg after officials found the virus in waste water samples at a processing plant nearby. that polio case, the first in the united states in nearly a decade, is causing officials to urge unvaccinated residents to get immunized to prevent potential spread in the area. this comes as officials in new york and around the country are struggling to figure out how to get shots in arms for monkeypox, amid a limited supply of the vaccine. just a week after the biden administration declared a public health emergency for the disease. let us bring in msnbc medical contributor dr. kavita patel, former obama white house health policy director and dr. patel, i got to start in the obvious place, which is, with the polio outbreak. i'm going to read this statement from the new york department of health in a little more detail here. based on earlier polio outbreaks, new yorkers should know that for every one case of paralettic polio observed, there may be hundreds of other people

infected, state health commissioner dr. mary t. basset said. as we learn more, what we do know is clear. the danger of polio is present in new york today. i live in new york. not happy about this. and i don't really understand it. like, what just -- try to eradication effort, a global a rad ration effort. and actually in the united states, it's been about 22 years since we were able the declare because of a vaccine that it was eradicated at least from the united states having native cases of polio. we do see cases in other parts of the world, because that's something that has been happening over and over, but not at anywhere near kind of pictures of the iron lungs and some of just the devastaing disease this caused -- paralysis of the limbs.

so many things we've heard from fdr's time. this is something only most of us have seen in history textbooks. so what's happened and unfolded is in 2020 there was a pause on a lot of global eradication efforts. but sadly, a lot of misinformation about vaccinations in general, that led to a decline in vaccinations for polio, both worldwide and also a decline in the united states. that allowed an opportunity for the virus, which they believe has been picked up from another country, but has now taken hold in the united states to be allowed to proliferate, and the new york health commissioner's warning is just another to underscore that vaccines matter, they save lives, and that -- i can't believe we're talking about polio, monkeypox, and covid all in the same breath, but what's where we are. all throe have vaccines available. in one case, monkeypox, people want them desperately. in the other cases we have to convince people to do routine

vaccinations. >> am i wildly oversimplifying and generalizing when i say, we know the anti-vax moment, how damaging it was to getting the vaccine out on covid. we know that. is it right to say that the likelihood that polio is back in even some small way, a brief way, that that is a consequence -- not the consequence of the fact that the anti-vax movement had negative effects in all of these areas, and this is part of that same story? am i wrong about that? >> no you're not wrong, and i think what we haven't really measure second down how much time we've lost, health-care workers such as myself and others having to combat that misinformation, because we're having to convince people -- i had to spend time convincing families. new york, 7.1% average polio vaccination rate. there's no reason that shouldn't be in the high 9 0s.

we're combatting this, and wasting time we could have used with developmental milestones. we're just seeing the ripple effects, not just with vaccines but so many other parts of health care, and i fear -- i'll be honest. polio took me by surprise. i thought we'd see more measles outbreaks because of the decline in measles vaccines. wouldn't shock me at all if we saw it all copping to roost this year. >> for those of us who believe in vaccines you would think this information about the monkeypox vaccine, the fda says it's going to make a historic change soon, that will allow us to take one dose of monkeypox and divide into it five. "the new york times" talks about what that could mean. stretching out doses of this vaccine could help the federal government resolve a predicament partly of its own making even though it developed the monkeypox vaccine against small and monkeypox. both vaccine stocks processed into vials.

it's enough to over 30,000 people, but need three times as many. there's a story about children at a day care exposed. how important is this splitting of the vaccine? will that even be enough with the pace at which this thing is spreading? >> great point. i think it will definitely be taking one dose turning it into five is incredible, and it doesn't change -- i want to emphasize this. we don't have the data, but the fda made the point to say, it doesn't change the effectiveness of these vaccines. we're not shortchanging the doses, we're just changing the way they're administrated. originally they had to be given under the fatly layer, and we're switching and putting into the skin layer, and that allows for a smaller dose.

that's a good thing. everybody needs to acknowledge, it's not just in one population. it has likely spilled over into the community. so what we need to do is be honest. you have an unusual illness, rash, contact with somebody expected to have monkeypox, go to see somebody, go to a health-care office. you can get a test. it's very simple, and you have to advocate for yourself. but this is not limited to one geography. we'll likely see more cases. good news, have a vaccine. we have treatments on hand, and you need to get to them, get diagnosed early. >> i keep saying to myself, it's like covid, monkeypox, and now polio. it's like the hits keep oncoming. just absolutely unbelievable. >> john, i will say this, one thing, though. this is a lack of -- we need to invest in public health. it's not because i want more

money or need to get paid more. this is why we need to bring public health back into the fore front, and it deserves that attention from congress. >> i'd be happy to have you paid more. the information you give us, i want to invest in public health and want to pay you more because you're always so good on the show, give us information any idiot like me can understand. quick break for us. we'll be right back. >>

this? this is supersonic wifi from xfinity. it's fast. so gaming with your niece has never felt more intense. incoming! hey, what does this button do? no, don't! welcome to the fastest internet on the largest gig speed network. are you crying uncle ed? no! a little.

only from xfinity. unbeatable internet made to do anything so you can do anything. . ♪ always be together ♪ she was a british australian pop star, but still a quintessential part of the american pop cultural experience, especially for a certain inspiration. sad news to report. olivia newton john died this young at the terribly young age of 73. her family says she passed away surround bid loved ones as her ranch in southern california. showed so much grace and

toughness fighting breast cancer for some 30 years. today as she passes remember her not for who she was, not for how she died, remember her for how she lived. won four grammys over a five decade career. sold 100 million records, and her song physical was recorded by billboard as the number one pop single of the 1980s. the olivia newton john fundraised a fortune for cancer research. passing away today at the age of 73. thanks for being with us. "the beat" with ari melber starts now. ari, you wonder the olivia newton john song "mellow". you're never mellow. your favorite song, wondering what it is? >> there's such a legacy there. first thing i