fifth amendment, fifth amendment, fifth amendment, horrible. horrible. the mob takes the fifth. if you're innocent, why are you taking the fifth amendment? >> you sit there, mika, and listen to him, "fifth amendment, fifth amendment." what is he doing? obviously, he was practicing. >> well, there is that. donald trump's thoughts on taking the fifth before invoking the fifth more than 400 times yesterday while testifying in new york state's investigation. >> 400 times. >> of the trump organization. >> he took the fifth 400 times. >> how long does that take? so does he still think it is disgraceful? >> 400 times over disgraceful. >> does he think it is something you only do if you are guilty. >> 400 times guilty. >> does he still think it is something the mob does? >> 400 times. >> well -- >> is he mobbed up? is that what he is telling us? is this confession? is this rejection? only time will tell. plus, new information on the fbi's search of mar-a-lago and how officials learned about the

possibility of more classified documents on the property. here is a teeny tiny, teensy-weensy hint, it came from inside. >> hold on. hold on. are you telling me the call came from the inside? wow. >> just going to leave that there. good morning. good morning, everyone. >> it is kind of like the mob, isn't it? >> oh, boy. welcome to "morning joe." it is thursday, august 11th. with us, we have -- >> scene from the "sopranos." >> associate editor from "the washington post", david ignatius. donald trump can grift money off supporters, but he can't erase history. it is not that he use to mock the fifth amendment before invoking it yesterday hundreds of times, it is also his attack on fbi director christopher wray, a man he nominated to the

job as a, quote, impeccable individual and model of integrity. >> a model, donald trump said. christopher wray was a model of integrity. >> after all, why would the feds will worried about top secret documents floating around mar-a-lago? remember when trump and his top aides coordinated their response to north korea's missile test in full view of club members, who then posted pictures of it on facebook? or when a chinese businesswoman made her way onto the grounds of mar-a-lago with a purse full of electronics, she was sentenced to prison. lucky for the ex-president, he has supporters like rand paul of kentucky, who once called trump a fake conservative clown. but now, parrots a conspiracy theory that america's top law enforcement agency was planting evidence. let me circle back.

christopher wray put there by trump. put there by him, joe. >> a man of integrity. david ignatius, we haven't talked to you since this all came down. obviously, when you have the fbi going in to a former president's home, there's going to be people on both sides wondering what's going on. we've, of course, heard some voices from the right. "washington post" columnists saying that the doj needs to be more transparent. we have walter isaacson, very respective newsman who was on our show a couple days ago, saying the same thing. that the doj needs to show their hand a bit more than usual and let americans know why they did that. but you talk to legal scholars, and they'll say it's not the

doj's job. it's not the fbi's job. they don't do what comey did during the 2016 election and keep a running commentary going while pursuing possible criminal charges. i'd love to know what your take is on where this is, what the doj's responsibility is as far as transparency goes. >> joe, the first thing i think is that as you look at all these different investigations, you just see this classic picture of the walls in on somebody who is suspected of criminal activity. this is a multi-dictional series of probes. most go through the justice department, but not all. our attorney general merrick garland is the most -- attorney general i can remember. i started covering the ags around 1970s, and i don't

remember one who spoke more softly. he was a circuit court judge, nominated for the supreme court. he has judicial temperament. he is cautious. he is conscious of the rules that guard prosecutions. he wants to make sure that those rules are enforced. grand jury secrecy is absolutely central to our system. grand juries collect information in secret, and prosecutors should not disclose it. but he is also concious of his role. for the last year, he said he is going to be conducting a wide-ranging investigation of the insurrection on january 6th, using every u.s. attorney's office in the country, every fbi office. he said that openly, publicly, repeatedly. we're now beginning to see the fruits of that investigation. people didn't believe merrick

garland when he said this was going to be a probe of that scope, but it is. we now see that. each of these investigations have a slightly different beginning. the new york attorney general's investigation is entirely different from some of the others. we still don't know exactly what the fbi agents were going after when they searched mar-a-lago, except trump's attorney said they took 12 boxes of materials, which implies these were 12 boxes they didn't get before when they went to search and took 15. they knew what they were going after. i think the basic point that people should remember is that merrick garland is an unusually careful and sensible attorney general. i think he'll do well. the country may focus on what is he doing? is he being too aggressive? merrick garland's demeanor is, i think, for most reasonable people, disprove that argument.

>> yeah. you know, george conway, let's bring in george conway, contributing columnist for "the washington post." george, there have been people like myself who have been saying for years it seems donald trump is above the law. you have, of course, manhattan d.a.s, prosecutors who say they have him dead to center on criminal charge, then the d.a. backs down. you have other people in the past who have backed down. mueller investigation just sort of stopped, despite the fact mueller said he didn't exonerate donald trump. but here, i guess what's so surprising about this is we're talking about classified documents which, of course, are extremely important. but you have what's going on in new york state. you have what's going on in a larger doj investigation, most likely, over the insurrection and over president leading a seditious coup. of course, then you have what may end up being the most troubling for him, the grand jury in georgia.

i'm curious, do you agree with david ignatius, that this is just the beginning of the ex-president's legal problems? i also am curious, your thoughts on the doj's handling of this thus far. >> well, i do agree, this is -- i think the walls are closing in on him. there are so many different investigations. there's also civil suits that are chasing him down. i think, bit by bit, we're finally going to see the processes apply to him. he had his deposition taken yesterday by the new york attorney general. there are some civil depositions coming up, and he is being forced, essentially, to put up or shut up in these investigations. yesterday, he, you know, took the fifth 440 times, which is basically the most respect i think he's ever shown for the constitution of the united states. but the georgia case, i think, is particularly one to keep looking out for. it's the one that sort of seems to be moving ahead the most

quickly. but i think this documents investigation is one that we haven't heard the last of. i mean, david is absolutely right about the innate cautiously and by the book nature of merrick garland. i think that he is handling this absolutely perfectly. i don't think the justice department should be saying anything more than it already has said, which is basically nothing about this, because that's what the rule of law requires. that is what grand jury secrecy requires. the whole point of this exercise is that nobody is above the law. the law applies equally to you and i, to the rich and the poor, to ex-presidents and just regular citizens. one of those protection people have is grand jury secrecy and the presumption of innocence. the reason why the justice department does not say anything about ongoing investigations, except in unusual circumstances or when indictments are there is

to protect the reputations of those that are the subject of investigation. if he really thinks that there is a witch hunt going on with these documents that were at ma a lago, he should tell us exactly what happened. show us the search warrant. what was the government looking for? what did they take? he has a list of what they took, or should have a list, and that would tell us a great deal. but he doesn't want to say anything because he knows it's not going to be helpful to him, i'm sure. just as actually answering questions from latisha james yesterday wasn't going to be helpful to him. >> let's bring in former u.s. attorney and msnbc legal analyst barbara mcquaid. and legal contributor charles coleman. a lot of questions floating around in the media, why doesn't the doj come forward or the fbi and tell us what's going on? this was a legal search. this was a peaceful search. they got a heads-up. it could not be more boring.

and the only parties involved here making it exciting or making it sound like something more than it is is trump and his followers, and clowns on television who want to make this an invasion of the american people's home. i think that happened on january 6th. that's just me. also, it's great to catch him in the middle of, you know, the 5,000th moment of blatant hypocrisy about taking the fifth or whatever. those are great headlines, great tv. but, barbara mcquaid, where do you see obvious legal exposure here? is it connected to a potential fbi search, or might it be, as george conway pointed out, in fulton county? >> yeah, i think the georgia investigation is at least the one that is the most imminent. i don't know that, ultimately, it'll be the one that is the most significant or brings the most prison time. but i think that's the one moving the most quickly. part of it is the scope of it is

much more narrow than the scope of doj's investigation because it relates only to the activities occurring in georgia, in contrast to doj's, which sprawls all across the country, involves members of congress, seven states. for that reason, it is easier for fani willis there to get her arms around it. i also think we have a little more visibility into that case than we do into what's happening at doj. that's because as a state prosecutor, if she wants to subpoena witnesses from out of state, she has to get court orders to do that. those court orders are public, so we know about all the witnesses that she's been bringing into the grand jury there. we don't have that same kind of visibility into the grand jury activity at the justice department. but i think, based on the pace at which she is moving and the scope of it, it seems that that's the case that's going to come to a head sooner. i also think she has fewer levels of bureaucracy to deal with than the justice department. if she thinks a crime has been committed and it is worth bringing charges, she has the power to do that on her own. i think that's the place to

watch, at least in the short term. >> charles coleman, i want to know if you agree, just a note to a lot of the republicans out there who, you know, really should let this play out. see where it goes, instead of playing into violent rhetoric which is causing danger right and left. charles, to barbara's point, where do you see legal exposure here for the former president of the united states? >> well, i think, mika, there are a number of different places where the president or former president is facing significant legal exposure. he has, on all sides, been embattled by a number of legal entangmenlements he has to sort out. i'll agree with george, barbara, and david, and i've said it on this program before, fani willis and fulton county needs to be the number one priority for the trump legal team as they sort out what's in front of them. the reason i say that is because

of all of the things that are -- they're facing. that's the one that is going to be hardest to kick down the road. when you look at the investigation that is occurring out of the new york attorney general's office with letitia james, they're going to be able to fight that in a way that pushes that further and further down the road, which is ultimately his plan. he didn't give anything during his deposition. he pled the fifth 400 times, as you already said, and that is a means of trying to get that office to, number one, make a decision. are you going to sue me, or are you going to look for a settlement? either way, it pushes it further and further out. we know that with respect to merrick garland and the doj, those investigations are slow moving and they're meticulous and methodical and strategic. that all takes time. so when you're thinking about the most important and most imminent investigation -- i think barbara used that word -- it is clearly what is coming out of fulton county.

that has to be the priority. ultimately, what we're seeing, i think, in terms of republicans and donald trump, is that now, as a last resort, they are looking to put pressure on the court of public opinion. you know what time of year it is. you have midterms looming. there is obviously the consideration of donald trump running in 2024. all of these things have now created a political firestorm. as a last resort, it's not a legal strategy but it is a strategy intended to put pressure from the public on these different entities as a ways of seeing if that may provide him breathing room in a space that, as many people already said, appears to be closing in very rapidly. >> you know, we will talk in a second about the search and how the call is coming from the inside, but, david, over the past several days, i've been talking to people who -- and, by the way, i agree with walter. as transparent as the doj can be while being fair to donald trump

and being fair to the process, i've been saying they need to be transparent as possible. that said, so many people have been talking about the midterm elections. so many people have been talking about we're 90 days out. you can't do this. you can't do that. i understand those concerns. i also understand, though, that justice is supposed to be blind to such matters. as you talk about the attorney general, talk about merrick garland, and you talk about him being the most renaseint, you have elections every two years. if you're always looking at the investigation, you cannot conduct it in the manner possible. i have no concerns about this investigation leading the doj, where it leads them on the

timeframe it does. i'm curious what your thoughts are. do you think the doj needs to halt before the election? >> no. joe, i think you can be woried about being political that you become political. that you pull back from investigations that you'd otherwise conduct, for which you have sufficient evidence. i think merrick garland has tried to be as careful as he can. but it seems to me that as the evidence here accumulates, and when merrick garland has spoken publicly about this investigation, he said what you see is the tip of the iceberg. we have been conducting this vast, nationwide investigation. every u.s. attorney's office, every fbi office. we've accumulated a lot of material. they have the ability to gather phone records, other records.

they have the instrument of grand jury secrecy to propel them forward. i think merrick garland must have made a decision, he can't hold back simply for fear of seeming to be political. he has to pursue the evidence that he has where it takes him. i have just two thoughts that play off something you said at the outset. first, i think it is entirely possible that they do have significant assistance from people within the trump inner circle. we've seen in the senate, in the house january 6th hearings, how many republicans who were part of the inner circle, the white house counsel, former attorney general, are sickened by what they've seen and are prepared to share information. that may be happening on a much wider scare. if you look at the raid on mar-a-lago, it appears the fbi knew what they were looking for. they were going after something very specific. we don't have the warrant, the

search warrant. trump, presumably, does. we certainly don't have the affidavit in support of the warrant that they gave to a federal judge, which enumerates what they were like looking for they knew what they were going for. why? i think they had some assistance on the inside. second point i would make, one thing that unites many of these investigations is they appear to be focusing on issues of possible criminal intent by the president. if you look at the georgia investigation, you've got him on tape saying, "i want these votes." you know, "i want you to give me x number of votes, "then a series of actions coming from that. if you look at the seizure of phone records of representative scott perry, of john eastman, of jeffrey clark in that separate probe, again, you have questions of what they were instructed to do by the president. what was his intent at time

he issued orders to people, made statements? those two things. people on the inside who may be saying things about trump, things that trump said to others, i think those may be central to a number of these investigations. >> clearly, to david's point, joe, i think of the phrase you came up with yesterday, tortured logic. no matter what merrick garland does or says to, you know, answer to those demanding what happened right now, no matter what he says, it's going to be brought up by trump followers and republicans and twisted. they're going to have this tortured logic about it. whatever they do, it is going to be to fight it. it's not going to have any connection with reality. so there's really no point of trying to appease the public in the middle of an investigation that is now 36, 48 hours old in terms of the search being made public. >> right. >> there is no winning on that

front. >> right. >> the only front they can win on is facts and the law. >> you say appeasing the public. you're talking about appeasing conspiracy theorists. >> you can't. >> insurrectionists. >> yup. >> weirdos. >> crazy people. >> freaks. fascists. >> lunatics. >> fascists who are now going online, talking about violence against the federal judge. like you said -- >> hypocrites. >> -- you're never going to win with this group. but, you know, you look at the people that are squawking the loudest. they're the people that -- you know, it is what you expect. someone who is guilty and knows justice is about to come down on them, it is how you expect them to squawk. so i really think there is way too much chatter about the concern about these right-wing extremistsfascists. i think you call fascists

fascists. if fascists are going out and making threats, i think what you do is, you know, you go after them with the law. >> there's that. >> the rule of law. >> there is also -- >> if you have people on cable news channels that inspired violence leading up to january the 6th and then were shocked on january the 6th by the violence that took place. after january 6th, pretended they weren't shocked by the violence that took place on january 6th and they're doing it again, well, you know, there are legal channels for that, too, when people obviously get hurt. they're being very reckless and irresponsible. there is an underlying theme about what has been going on in trump world since january 6th, the investigation really took off. this is the theme, he's not being taken down politically or legally by people on the left.

no, it's from people that worked for him for years, his most loyal supporters. >> right. >> you look at the fbi search of mar-a-lago. even the fbi search of mar-a-lago, again, george conway, the call came from the inside. "the wall street journal" said it was of internal officials. fbi officials showed up with instructions to keep the search as unobtrusive as possible, with agents in plain clothes and told not to take weapons. the paper reports that someone familiar, on the inside, with where boxes of government documents were stored, told investigators there may be more classified documents on property, even after 15 boxes were sent to the national archives earlier this year. george conway, a call came from

the inside. just as we have seen on january 6th, the most damning testimony, and those hearings came from the inside, came from lawyers who defended donald trump during the first impeachment, came from lawyers who defended donald trump through his second impeachment. it came from the inside. it's happening again here. >> absolutely right. it is going to continue to happen. i mean, the people who are on the inside knew the truth about donald trump. the biggest scam of the last five years was the pretense that he was in any way morally, intellectually, psychologically, fit to the president of the united states. he wasn't fit to hold any public office. the only thing he was morally, psychologically, or intellectually fit for is running a ponzi scheme. the truth is something that they all know, but they're afraid to go public and say these things,

for whatever reason. you had lindsey graham yesterday, i guess, on some cable news network saying, basically nodding when the host was suggesting that the fbi had planted evidence at mar-a-lago. >> oh, my god. >> the basis is nothing. it is completely insane. the cultishness continues. but behind closed doors, they know the truth. they know what he is. these people may be afraid to go on fox news and tell the truth or afraid to come here and tell the truth, but when it comes to federal agents who have subpoena power and who can issue search warrants, and the potential for, you know, criminal obstruction charges if you don't cooperate or you interfere in any way with the investigation, people are going to tell the truth. that's what we've seen in the january 6th hearings, and that's what we are going to continue to see in, i'm sure, this leak investigation -- or this document investigation.

>> joe, to your point, "newsweek" matched this reporting of where this all came from on the inside. two senior government officials told the magazine the search was largely based on information from an informant. >> an informant on the inside of mar-a-lago. >> who told the fbi what documents trump was hiding and where they were located. trump world is reportedly trying to figure out who flipped. according to "rolling stone," donald trump is worried he may have a rat or multiple rats in his midst. he is wondering if his phones are tapped, or even if his buddies could be wearing a wire. barbara, i would think that is a very good thing to be concerned about. >> yeah, absolutely. if this is an ongoing investigation, as it appears to be, then it would be appropriate to continue to collect evidence. so the ways those are done are through listening devices, surveillance techniques,

confidential informants, consensual monitoring. to use those techniques requires court oversight. they're not planting bugs on their own. they're not tapping his phones without great scrutiny by a court. so just as we saw for this search, it required a court to review and determine whether there was probable cause to believe that a crime had been committed and that evidence of that crime would be found on the scene. to engage in any of the other investigative techniques would also require court oversight. so i'm sure merrick garland is doing this by the book. he has told us so. by all appearances, he is doing so. but i think you're right, if we know there is an informant who shared this information -- which is not surprising. it is often the way that the government learns about misconduct in cases, someone who is close to the wrongdoer shares that information. but i think donald trump does need to watch his back. sound like the rats are fleeing the ship. >> yeah.

of course, in a bit of irony, charles, donald trump actually strengthened the law that he may be charged under regarding the mishandling of classified information. again, it's all a perfect circle. here he is, screaming and yelling and bellowing about mobsters who take the fifth amendment because he is trying to attack hillary clinton people. not hillary clinton but hillary clinton's people. then he pleads the fifth hundreds of times. he, of course, has everybody getting up, chanting "lock her up" and, my gosh, has any president had as many people indicted as this guy? only the best people, only the best indicted people, there is the irony there. but here, you know, he strengthens a law for people who are mishandling classified documents because of hillary clinton's emails. a few that may have been mislabeled or that she'd put on

the wrong server. here, you've got a guy with boxes and boxes of documents, some of which so highly classified, they can't even summarize the contents of the documents. >> right. >> and if he is going to be charged, he is going to be charged under a law that even he made tougher to try to make a phony political point against hillary clinton. >> that would be something. >> well, you know, joe, as the old saying goes, it's no fun when the rabbit has the gun. i think that's where donald trump finds himself. he is essentially getting a very different view of how the legal system works. you know, this is -- >> i've never heard that saying, by the way, charles. >> fantastic. it's no fun when -- >> i heard from my grandmom, mom and aunt, i heard just about every saying. >> it's no fun when the rabbit has the gun. >> never heard that one. i'll write it down right now while you continue. go ahead. >> feel free. you know, donald trump is getting a very different

perspective on how the legal system works, and this is the perspective that does not shield itself from privilege. he's enjoyed that. if you know anything about how he has tended to operate, he almost likes to make a mockery of being sued. he has made depositions in the past these verbal sparring matches between attorneys, and he's been notably a very difficult person to depose. but what we're seeing now is he is very clear about the magnitude and gravity about what is at stake. that's why you are seeing a very different tune than you have from him in the past. i think that it is absolutely accurate, viewers need to understand, and i think barbara touched on this, there is no way that you get a search warrant issued, particularly for someone's home, if you cannot describe with specificity and particularity where the information or where the evidence that you are seeking is actually located within the domicile. it has to be a part of how search warrants are written,

because i've written them before, and how they are executed, because i've seen how they are executed. that type of information does not come at random. it comes because someone knows and because someone has supplied that information. so everything about what we're seeing now in this change of tune from donald trump, going from someone who basically derided other people for taking the fifth and now has decided to take the fifth himself, is a very clear indication that he understands that he is in serious hot water. >> charles coleman, thank you very much. george conway and barbara mcquaid, thank you, as well, very much for your insight this morning. we really appreciate it. before we go to break, a look at the other stories making headlines this morning. the justice department has announced a member of iran's islamic revolutionary guard has been charged in a plot to kill former u.s. national security adviser john bolton. the 45-year-old iranian operative is accused of attempting to arrange bolton's

assassination, likely in retaliation for the killing of an iranian force commander in 2020. offering to pay $300,000 to individuals in the u.s. to carry out the act. former secretary of state mike pompeo is also reportedly the target of an assassination plot, as well. >> david ignatius, obviously, this just doesn't happen. just doesn't happen. i was going to say very often. >> does it? >> usually -- how do i say this? countries are not dumb enough to target former american officials because they know hell that will rain down on them after. what are your thoughts about this plot to murder former u.n. ambassador and national security adviser? >> so, joe, i think it is very serious. it is a sign that iran has

attempted to take what it sees as revenge for the killing of soleimani, the head of the force. operatives have been operating under unusual security in the several years since that attack for fear of iranian reprisals. this is the first specific evidence of a plot. the iranians are dangerous. they use force all over the middle east, and they think hard about taking revenge for what they see as attacks on their own people. john bolton was part of the decision making process, but there are many other officials who were closer to the point of the spear, if you will, who were involved in this operation. i'm sure there's concern about their security, as well. but this is an unusual disclosure about iran. it comes at a time when the u.s. and iran are just getting back to the negotiating table to talk about the revival of the nuclear agreement. makes it harder to do a deal

with an iran that is known to be trying to kill a former national security adviser. >> keeping in mind, the justice department, the department of defense, all connected to this, trying to figure out what happened. and mike pompeo, a huge trumper. so very departments that right-wing extremists are now castigating. they are doing their job when it comes to mike pompeo. i don't know how you square that. >> for all americans, and they do it every day, mika. this is what is deeply offensive to me, and it has been for quite some time. i talked about it a couple weeks ago before this raid was moving forward. the attacks against the fbi had slowed down a little bit, and i thought it'd be a good time to reflect a little on the fact that republicans who used to support law enforcement before january 6th, republicans who used to support the fbi before

donald trump came into office, have been slandering the fbi for years now. for years. it is, of course, ironic, because it was the fbi that helped elect donald trump because of some of the things that james comey did. i'm not saying he did it deliberately to elect donald trump, but certainly did. there was a faction inside the fbi, we're quite aware of it, that was anti-hillary, and it was widely reported. that said, though there are human beings inside the fbi, just like there are human beings inside the church, just like there are human beings inside the government, it is an organization that is dedicated to protecting all americans. all americans when they go to work. all americans when they get on the subway. all americans when they get on airplanes. all americans when they move about their daily lives. for republicans to continue to slander and trash professionals who have dedicated their lives

to making all of us safer is just so deeply, deeply offensive. one more quick headline. flash flooding yesterday hit the nation's capitol, with water consuming highways, city streets, and metro stations. more than 4 inches of rain fell. it caught drivers off guard, prompted several water rescues from emergency crews. flooding also occurred in local metro trains. the national weather service issued several flash flood warnings in the nation's capital and surrounding areas through the evening hours. still ahead on "morning joe," beto o'rourke shuts down a heckler in a big way. we'll play the town hall moment that is all over social media this morning. also ahead, numbers some drivers haven't seen in months. gas prices under $4 a gallon. we'll ask "morning joe" economic analyst steve rattner if those

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whose resumes on indeed match your job criteria. visit indeed.com/hire and get started today. 41 past the hour. this is washington, d.c., after a day of heavy rain and flooding. beautiful shot of the sun coming up over the capitol. >> look at that plane. t.j., he cued the plane, cued everything. >> gorgeous. >> how does he do it? i just don't know. we have good news for drivers at the pump. gas prices have fallen for 58

days in a row. aaa is reporting the national average for gasoline is under $4, holding at $3.99 a gallon. couple the gas prices news with the better than expected numbers in july's inflation report. is there relief on the horizon? >> let's bring in former treasury official and "morning joe" economic analyst steve rattner. let's talk, first of all, about yesterday's inflation report. what do you got for us? >> well, let me try to unpack it a little for you, joe. sometimes these inflation numbers are confusing. month over month, year-over-year, especially when you have so much going on in the economy. if you start with the chart on the left, the red line is the -- is what is happening month to month, from june to july in this case. you can see, hopefully, that the red line has gone all the way down to the zero line. in other words, there was no inflation from june to july. why was there no inflation from june to july? you have to look at those colored bars below, and you can

see that gasoline declined, as you mentioned, very substantially. that exactly offset the increases and other prices. they zeroed each other out. without that change in gasoline prices, you would have had inflation at around a 5% rate. still a lot better than what we've seen. still a bit more than what we want. now, if you look at it year-over-year, so this july compared to last year, you can see that prices are rising still steeply, although slightly less steeply. last month in june, they were up 9.1%. that came down to 8.5% in july. a little less than people expected. that is all good news. that is all good news. but it is important to note that even if prices didn't go up at all the rest of this year, we'd still have 6.5% inflation this year. >> yeah, let's talk about gas prices. i saw several people who are not

fans of joe biden seeming to be angry about the fact that gas prices have gone down. wanted the world to know that the only reason they went down is because demand went down. i don't know if that is the case or not. i'm just glad if a consumer, if a working american wants to get a gallon of gas, it's a lot cheaper than it was a month ago. what can you tell us about falling gas prices, even in the midst of a ukrainian-russian war that just keeps going? >> yeah, it is kind of un-american to be against falling gas prices, to be unhappy when gas prices fall. they have fallen for a few reasons. most of them do have to do with the demand side. obviously, there isn't a lot of new supply coming on. we are producing a little bit more, but that's not enough to matter. what's really happening is a couple of things. first, china is very slow at the moment. their oil, overall oil usage has been very uncharacteristically low.

that's had an impact on prices. secondly, there has been demand destruction in the u.s., for example. people are driving less. they're using less gasoline. i think i saw the figure of 9% less this season than last. and the europeans, because of the war in ukraine, are also taking measures to cut back on their oil use. all of that has had a very positive effect on oil prices. >> yeah, you know, i want to go -- let's see how nimble we can be here. i want to go to the third chart. "falling real wages hurting sentiment." in the third chart, we look at wages versus consumer sentiment. take us through that chart, if you will. >> sure. we can be nimble. that is the crux of the matter, to some degree. the reason why we've had so much pessimism or unhappiness among the american public is, in large part, because they are falling behind. if you look at the left side of the chart, the blue line is

what's happening to wage growth. you can see that both before the pandemic, through the pandemic, and until earlier this year, the blue line was substantially above the red line, which is price increases. therefore, americans were getting better off every month or every day, for that matter. the right side, those have flipped around. as inflation took off, wages have also gone up, but not by nearly as much as how much prices are going up. that is the crux of the matter for most americans. you have 6.7% wage growth and 8.5% price growth. the other point -- and then you can see the implication of that on the right in consumer sentiment, which reached a record low. it has, you know, for a month, and we should never make too much of a month, it does look like it bottomed out one month. whether it is because of falling gas prices or the president's great successes or so many other things, i can't say, but we'll see what's next month. but the ying and the yang of this also, and this is the point

that people don't like to always say out loud, is to get inflation down, the rate of wage increases has to come down. wages are obviously the biggest component of what any company does. if you're paying out wage increases of 6.7%, you obviously are going to drive inflation way above the fed's 2% target. >> steve, this is david ignatius. i want to ask a quick question. the financial markets, to look at their performance, seem now to be baking in the idea that there's going to be a soft landing. we've turned the corner on inflation, that the economy seems to be humming along pretty well. what's your view about that? is the news as rosy as the financial numbers from the markets would suggest? >> it is interesting, david, and a little unusual in recent years, anyway, that the financial markets are more optimistic than economic forecasters. the optimism is particularly driven by optimism around

interest rates. the financial markets simply don't believe the fed is going to have to raise rates as high as it says it will have to, let alone how high, as people like larry summers says it has to. those low rates are a friend of the stock market. high rates are the enemy of the stock market. low rates are the friend of the stock market. yes, the market is beginning to think that there is a potential soft landing here. that's, in large part, why you've seen the markets so strong over the last week or two, and especially yesterday, after those numbers came out. >> "morning joe" economic analyst steve rattner, thank you very much. always good to see you. coming up, david ignatius weighs in on that major strike against russian forces deep behind the front lines. what it says about the state of the conflict, next on "morning joe."

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losses in its invasion of ukraine, there is new reporting that moscow is struggling to replenish troop numbers. according to the "associated press," billboards and public transit advertisements have been placed in different regions around the country, urging men to join the professional army. meanwhile, at least nine russian war planes were destroyed in a deadly string of explosions in the kremlin-controlled crimea region yesterday. in a statement, the ukrainian air force said the airfield, which housed russian fighter jets and military planes, was rendered completely unusable. satellite images released yesterday by planet labs, an

american imaging company, appear to show the aftermath of an explosion. >> geez. >> the images show at least three blast craters and eight wrecked war planes. >> david, that is deep inside of crimea. we've been talking about possible counter-offenses in the south, but this is going to the heart of crimea. talk about the significance of that strike. >> joe, it is deep in crimea. it shows the reach of ukrainian forces. what it really shows, i think, is the beginning of something that has been predicted for months, which is a phase of partisan warfare inside areas the russians control. where pro-kyiv ukrainians use the tactics of special forces, where they attack bases with rockets or bombs, where individuals are subject to

assassination. there have been assassination attempts, some successful, in areas of eastern ukraine in the last few weeks. we're entering this new phase of the war, in which the ukrainians are trying to show the power they have to make life miserable for russia. they think that there is a moment of opportunity because of what you and mika discussed earlier, the disorganization of russian forces. let's remember that vladimir putin has only called a partial mobilization. this is still a special military operation, in his phrase. it is not a full mobilization. that means he is having to offer bonuses to try to get recruits on the front lines, as people end their contracts and want to go home. for the ukrainians, it's a moment when the russians are disorganized. they're on their back foot a little bit. there's a lot of expectation in washington and in europe, that over the next few weeks, we'll see a significant ukrainian counteroffensive in the south. >> david, i know it is

impossible to predict what putin is going to do next, but, obviously, you look at intelligence numbers, whether it's from the pentagon, whether it's from british intelligence. the casualties just keep going higher and higher for russian troops. i just have to keep asking the question, how long is he going to be able to continue fighting this war? >> well, that's the question that i hear from pentagon analysts here, joe, the same one. casualty numbers range a bit, and they're not, obviously, highly reliable. but the numbers are enormous. the latest is that the russians could have suffered as many as 80,000 casualties total, killed and wounded, since this began in february. that is an enormous number. it is nearly half the size of the army that they sent into ukraine. if you can imagine that, half your army gets chewed up in this battle. the russians simply don't have

the forces to replace those numbers easily. so this is a moment where putin is reckoning with the costs of this war. u.s. officials warn putin in private, again and again, "you think you can go into ukraine easily, but you are going to be there ten years." that's the kind of scenario they must be thinking about now in the kremlin. >> david ignatius, thank you very much for joining us this morning. great to see you. coming up, more on former president trump's decision to plead the fifth hundreds of times during his deposition with the new york attorney general's office yesterday. plus, the unexpected triumph of joe biden. we'll read from that new column. and we're joined by a senior white house adviser for a look at what's next on the president's agenda. "morning joe" will be right back. and last for weeks. a pain so intense, you could miss out on family time.

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who was it, donald? you gave you up to the feds? who told what you had in boxes? no, not that stuff. >> disgusting. >> 15 boxes of top secret files. >> that's naughty, donald. >> and illegal. >> you broke the law. >> no wonder the department of justice and fbi came knocking. >> they're coming for you. >> who leaked? who sold you out? was it gerald? >> ungrateful. >> ivanka, eric.

>> do they even care? >> melania. >> she wants to escape. >> mark meadows. >> who did it? >> all your old washington friends are talking to the 1/6 committee and the grand jury. >> they weren't your friends. >> maybe someone closer. >> who could it be? >> someone you trusted. >> betrayed. >> now you're the first president to have his home raided by the fbi. >> this is your legacy. >> it's bad, donald. >> your father would be ashamed. >> there's no one you can trust. >> no one. >> no one at all. >> there never was. >> the lincoln project trolling donald trump in another web video that was amid reports someone in his inner circle may have sparked that fbi search of mar-a-lago. it's actually -- >> the thing is, they do try to troll him. the truth is, though -- >> all those people are talking. >> right. he can trust absolutely nobody. >> they have to protect themselves. >> inside the white house, he's had everybody working for him talking to the january 6th committee. most of the people that were in

there with him, defending him through the impeachments, defending him through his toughest times. >> they weren't under oath when doing that. >> they're the first ones now talking to the feds, talking to the january 6th committee. yeah, he's very isolated right now. >> weird feeling. >> obviously, somebody is on the inside, based on the reports and giving him up. >> we'll have the latest reporting if him. it is two minutes past the top of the hour. plus, the former president once claimed innocent people don't plead the fifth. so what does that say about him after he invoked the fifth amendment hundreds of times during his deposition with the state of new york yesterday? walls are closing in. welcome back to "morning joe." it is thursday, august 11th. with us, we have msnbc contributor mike barnicle. u.s. national editor at the "financial times," ed luce. and pulitzer prize-winning

author and presidential historian, doris kearns goodwin joins us this morning. >> doris, a couple days ago, on the 9th, i think it was michael beschloss who said, what were your memories of richard nixon's resignation? it was fascinating, seeing where everybody was on august the 9th, 1974. but then something hit on august the 9th, 2022, that certainly took us all back to those days. i was very young at the time, but, still, if you were growing up and you had memories of watergate, you understood just the severity of that crisis. it did feel -- it really did feel a bit like we were in 1974 again on august 9th. talk about any historical parallels that you saw from the

raid, as donald trump calls it. the rest of america would call it a search, a legal search. just your thoughts about where we are right now, the investigations against, what i believe is a very corrupt ex-president? >> you know, it is interesting, joe. when we think back to that summer of 1974, people were really anxious. we forget because we know it turned out all right. this is what happens with history. we know that, in the end, those republicans went to him and told him, "if you have an impeachment, there's only ten senators that will vote for you. you have to resign," then he resigned. the institutions held. because we know the end of the story, we forget there was a lot of anxiety that people were feeling before it. the same anxiety we are feeling now. how is this going to end? i mean, it seemed like we were moving along at a rather rational track. think about it. two months ago, it looked like conventional wisdom was that joe biden's approval ratings were so

bad and the normal expectations was that you lose in the midterms, and then things changed. we've had so many twists and turns. you had kansas happening to shock everybody. people really felt an idea had come that right to choose was something that had to be protected. then you saw the resurrection of congress. suddenly, these bills are forming. then his approval ratings are starting to go up. maybe inflation is beginning to cool down. suddenly, it all looks differently. all of a sudden comes the search on trump's property. then, all of a sudden, the republicans are rallying around him. it just teaches you that you do never tell. we are probably going to have a lot of twists and turns between now and november. i just keep thinking, my favorite one is that, here, you've got fdr in 1942, he's the leader of the allied forces. here comes the midterm elections. they're frustrated because we've been losing in the pacific, and the north african invasion is set for october. he wants it to be then, but it is postponed until november.

three days before the midterms, somebody in the administration stupidly announces that coffee is going to be rationed for one cup a day because they need the cargo ships for the soldiers. they could have waited to announce it until after the midterms. gasoline is rationed at 5 gallons. the democrats lose huge in the midterm elections. put your seat belts on. we have a lot of twists and turns between now and november. >> wow. >> yeah, you know, the greatest example of that, i think, is three years later, winston churchill leads great britain, of course, through the war. just extraordinary leadership. then loses to atley. his wife said that night, "dear, maybe it's a blessing in disguise." churchill said, "if it is, it is the best disguised blessing i've ever seen." terrible churchill. forgive me for that. >> pretty good. >> okay. listening to doris, i'm reminded

in what i was sort of trying to grasp at, the anxiety that i felt. the anxiety i saw through my parents' eyes, watching walter cronkite through '73 and '74, wondering whether richard nixon would abide by the supreme court rulings that he had to turn over the tapes. whether we were headed down another dangerous path in a very dark time in america. mike, of course, there are some concerns there, but i must say, for everybody that says this is the worst things have ever been, they weren't around in '74 and '74, and they sure as hell weren't around in 1968. it reminds me of something i read last night from jonah goldberg from "the dispatch." it was titled "yearning for a banana republic." he wrote this, if your belief in our country is so fragile and pathetic that you will lose hope for our nation unless donald

trump is given free reign to cleanse the land of evildoers, you don't love this nation. if you want your preferred faction being in power, you've confused partisanship for patriotism. this banana republic talk is un-american. if you're worried about america looking like a banana republic, please don't tell me the first president in american history to defecate on the peaceful transfer of power is the anecdote to the rot of third world corruption in our regime. he is the rot. when i hear people talking, the extremists talking about, on cable news channels, that an attack on donald trump is an attack on them, that's like saying an attack on al capone is an attack on them. you know, back when they went after capone.

this guy, again -- these same people who were begging him to stop the riots on january 6th are the same people who know he is guilty now, even though people are innocent until proven guilty. they know he is guilty in their minds and, yet, they're still playing this jim and tammy faye bakker game on tv, trying to whip people up into a frenzy and possibly whips people up into a violent reaction, like they did on january 6th. >> well, joe, the jonah goldberg piece you just read an excerpt from, and what you're saying right now, i think, outlines the biggest differences between 1968, 1974 with nixon leaving the white house in the helicopter and going to california.

today, there is one man whose sole purpose each and every morning, i think, is to further divide the country. that's the difference. a man who refused, basically, to leave office. a man who tried to disrupt democracy and overturn an election. the man's name is donald trump. so, today, what we're dealing with is a country that isly fra. the biggest difference, what caused the fracture, is you have your former political party. one political party in the throes of cult-like loyalty to this figure. and you are right, everyone around him who worked closely with him knows who he is, knows he is a liar, knows he is in it not for the country but for himself. everything he talks about roots around one thing, himself. that's the biggest difference and the biggest danger, i would submit, between now and anything

that has happened in the past in this country. to jonah goldberg's ultimate point, you know, if you're going to believe calamity is the future, if you're going to believe that calamity is stronger than the roots, the patriotic roots of this country, then there's something wrong with you. because this country is strong enough to survive a lot. it's already survived a lot. we certainly ought to be able to survive donald trump who, each and every day, to the other point you just made, has to be thinking that anyone who worked for him, who was close to him from mark meadows on down during his administration, is thinking, hey, if they offer me a deal, i'm flipping. >> right-wing extremists and far-right websites are going to do what they are going to do, and they're not going to hear this, but to our colleagues in this business, in the cable news business, to jump on this right when this peaceful search happens and twist it into an ait can attack on america, to go nuts and cause people to feel

that this was some sort of incredibly brazen attack on our country, on a former president, when you know what happened on january 6th, you saw it. you were begging him because you knew only he could put a stop to it. you were begging him to stop it. when you know, you know the election was not stolen, okay? you know this. you know the truth. you know what this former president has been trying to do. i'm not saying he broke the law. i'm not saying he committed a crime. that's not for me to say, but you know that he instigated january 6th, that he wanted people to go to the capitol, that it turned ugly. and you know that even to this day, he talks about the election being stolen when it was not. to be criticizing the fbi, to be saying violent things about the fbi, to be saying the fbi

crossed the rubicon, you know you're lying. and you know you're instigaing people to react in a bad way and to try and run to protect donald trump. you know you're doing the wrong thing for america. you know what you are doing, and you should stop it. it is going to get dangerous. >> the thing is, we're doing this with lies about the stolen election leading up to january 6th. they were instigating these people to believe in the lies. and then, when the violence started, suddenly, they're like, oh, oh, they got on their fainting couches. oh, please stop it. please stop it, of course, after being a part of it. whipping people into a frenzy. lying to american middle class citizens every day and every night for ratings. then they whip them into a frenzy.

in so doing, violence is let loose on the capitol of the united states, then they faint. they get on theoh, my god, plea please, stop the violence. we should -- and they're doing it again. >> well -- >> you have chris wray here, mika. you have chris wray now talking about threats to the fbi because of what they're saying. watch this. >> as to the issue of threats, i will say that i'm always concerned about violence and threats of violence against law enforcement. any threats made against law enforcement, including men and women of the fbi, as with any law enforcement agency, are deplorable and dangerous. >> how concerned are you that after the raid, that that could embolden maybe incentivize some of the same bad actors from january 6th to doing something similar? >> again, violence against law enforcement is not the answer, no matter what anybody is upset

about or who they are upset with. >> yeah. you know, watch a few cable news networks and look how they're whipping people into a frenzy. they did from the very beginning. then look, ed luce, at the threats against the fbi, the threats against federal judges, the threats against elected officials. it's just not hard to connect the dots between extremists in the media, whether it's on cable or whether it is podcasts, whether it's just online. the lies that they're telling, i guess for ratings. i don't know why they lie every day about donald trump. i guess they're scared of him. i don't know why. but if we have a problem, we have a problem here. again, because you have an entire cottage industry that is based around spreading lies in support of donald trump. here we go again.

again, we saw the lies about a stolen election leading to january 6th. that was promoted by the trumpist right, whether it was on cable news or in podcasts or online. and here we go again. they're doing it all again. so much so that the fbi is getting threats, federal judges getting threats, elected officials getting threats. when will they learn, their words lead to violence. >> the big difference, i think, between now and january 6th is after january 6th, you did have people like kevin mccarthy, lindsey graham, marco rubio, distancing themselves from what happened. even ted cruz, for goodness sake. this time, following the mar-a-lago raid, instantly, they're taking dictation from

trump. they're stenographers for the reptilian sort of instincts that he shows. this idea that the fbi is the gestapo. if the fbi is the gestapo, there is nothing between the situation, in their minds, we face today and civil war. that's what they're talking about. you don't negotiate with the gestapo. you don't sit down and split your differences with the nazi state. if that is what they are portraying the federal government is, of what the attorney general is, i couldn't think of a less likely character than this attorney general, to be a hitlarian, you know, instrument of some fascist will. but if that is the rhetoric that they are spreading, lots of people are going to believe it. i have no doubt that, you know, senator rubio, who is the ultimate shape-shifter, doesn't

believe a word of what he is saying, nor does kevin mccarthy, ditto. but the fact is, they and their amplifiers on fox news and "info wars" are bigger than a cottage industry, joe, i'd argue. this is a larger scale than a cottage industry. there will be millions of people who believe this, and this destroys something for which we have no real metric, which is any faith whatsoever that justice is blind, that justice is fair, that we have the rule of law in america. if you don't believe in the rule of law, if you think the gestapo is harassing political opponents, namely trump, and that trump is a victim of autocracy, then what wouldn't you believe? >> for sure.

>> you know, ed luce brings up a couple of really good points. one of them, before we continue with this discussion, i'd like to harken back to the clip we just showed of chris wray and the politician who asked chris wray a question, indicating what happened with the raid. he uses the phrase, "the raid." chris wray doesn't push back on that. the fbi director doesn't say, "it wasn't a raid. it was a legal proceeding. it was a signed search warrant, signed by a federal judge." part of the problem here is we have allowed the -- not us, but the politicians involved, on both sides of the aisle, but specifically, specifically the republicans, behave like cultists in official settings, in senate hearings, in house hearings. cultists. the marco rubio that ed was talking about, he is a cultist. doris, i don't think i can

recall -- your search of history, grasp of history is far greater than any of ours -- but i can't recall a time in american history, harkening back to the pre-revolution, revolutionary war days, where one party, one political party, was enthralled and captured and strengthened internally by a continual stream of cultists, who not only ignore reality but ignore the truth. >> well, you know, mike, i think there's two ways of looking at it. one is that the fertile ground that the republican party can find right now in spreading things that are untruths is because there's been a continuing lack of trust in our institutions. back in 1958, three-quarters of the people felt that the government would do the right thing most of the time. it's now down to 2 in 10 people think government will do the right thing some or most of the time. it started with vietnam, the failure to tell the truth about what was going on. watergate escalated it. president trump has whittled it

away little by little by little. on the other hand, we've got to get back to not feeling calamitous. something was happening with these january 6th hearings. they were breaking through to the public. the public sentiment is what matters, not what happens to the trump inner circle. even "the wall street journal" said they stood still, that silence is damning. something went wrong with january 6th. when people understand that, when, you know, victor hugo said that there's no army that can withstand the strength of an idea whose time has come. when the idea comes that no president, nobody is above the law, including the president, and something is happening here that we cannot deal with and we have to get back to voting. we have to get back to protecting voting rights. we have to get back to protecting our institutions. i still think america is going to come through. we've done it before. much worse times. i have to believe we'll do i

it again. >> i believe, as well, doris. i really do. i think you're exactly right. you talk about "the wall street journal" editorial page, "post" editorial page. they've, for some time, come out strongly against the lies, the big lie, against the lie that the election was stolen. also about january 6th. i do think, right now, again, maybe i'm too optimistic, i believe in america. i believe that we will get to justice in america. my concern right now is, doris, people that are out there trying to spread lies and spread hatred that could lead to violence. when you have republican senators, united states senators that are playing into those

conspiracy theories, playing into conspiracy theories that the fbi planted evidence, it just shows you just how corrupted the republican party is. now, i believe that leads to their complete demise ultimately, but right now, these obviously are dangerous times. >> yeah, you just keep wondering, you know, going way back in history, i think kansas started something now with the women who came out to vote for the right to choose, which we didn't expect. kansas is what began, in some ways, the kansas-nebraska act, the breakup of the old wig party and the creation of the republican party. because the extremists had gone too far in allowing slavery to exist above a line that had been agreed for three decades. people said, this can't stand. it's like a thunder clap. i keep wondering, this certain point at which i think things are going too far, and maybe the people who are republicans and don't like what is going on are going to breakaway. where is ambitious for the way

you're going to be remembered in history? why don't they care about that more than winning one more election? incomprehensible to me. your reputation and what your children think about you should be the primary thing you care about. >> that's what is missing this time around. a recognition of history, respect for history, and a care that your kids, perhaps, shouldn't behave in the way that a modern american president does. you know, for our counterparts -- and i don't want to, you know, say anything here except something peaceful -- you have a lot of power. you have a huge megaphone. millions of people watch you. yes, you get a very, very big ratings. please, use that megaphone responsibly. i say this as emphatically as you were texting donald trump during january 6th, you were begging him to stop because you knew it was wrong and you knew he could stop it, i'm begging you to stop. because you know it's wrong. you know this could lead to something very bad.

it already has. and it will if you continue. this does not end will. you have a megaphone. use it responsibly. stop. doris kearns goodwin, thank you. ed luce, stay with us. we want to read from your new column on the "quiet reboot of america's political capacity." to that point, we'll talk with white house senior adviser anita dunn about the democrats' recent string of legislative successes, and how they can keep momentum going into the midterms. plus, incredible images from across the country, as a slew of summer storms wreak havoc. we'll have the latest. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. a pool floatie is like whooping cough, it's not just for kids. whooping cough is highly contagious for people of any age. and it can cause violent uncontrollable coughing fits. ask your doctor or pharmacist about whooping cough vaccination

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long, long time. many obligations. one truly sacred obligation, to equip those we send into harm's way and to care for them and their families when they come home. that's a -- we have a lot of obligations, but that is a truly sacred obligation we have. >> president biden has signed legislation that expands health care benefits for veterans who are exposed to toxic burn pits during their military service. the pact act is the largest expansion of health care benefits for veterans exposed to toxins in more than 30 years. ed, in your latest piece for the "financial times," entitled "the unexpected triumph of joe biden," you write about why the president's string of recent legislative wins isn't being looked at as historic, even if it is. you write, in part, quote, any one of these policy breakthroughs should be big news in its own right. taken together, they amount to a quiet reboot of america's

political capacity. this sea change is likely to be overlooked for three reasons. the first is that almost everyone, especially washington's wizened political caste, is deeply acclimized. the second the is the flurry of legislation may be biden's last real bite of the apple if, as polls predict, democrats lose control of congress in november. republican leaders will ensure nothing more gets enacted for the rest of biden's term. third, the u.s. is in the midst of a deepening constitutional crisis. it is hard to acknowledge that a system is working when it is simultaneously so easy to picture its collapse. joe, it is such a different time for the country, such a divisive time.

yet, these are unbelievable wins for a modern american president. >> it is. it is a difficult time. we've been through difficult times before. i understand this is different, but i also heard that the past difficult times we've been through for different. people wondered if we were going to get through them. i think we will. i think one of the reasons we will, ed luce, is you look at the success that joe biden has had over the past month or two. you look at the success that he's had with bipartisan legislation. republicans and democrats figured out how to come together on the most significant gun safety reform in over a decade. on helping out vets, even though republicans delayed it a few days. they finally came around. on a china competition bill, they finally came around on that. you look at what happened with the bipartisan transportation

bill. if you look at what's happened just in the past year and a half with joe biden, it's really more significant legislation than passed over the decade, before he came to office. donald trump passed a tax cut. you take that out of the equation, and look at barack obama's last six years. you did have mitch mcconnell saying he was going to do everything he could to make him a one-term president. barack obama couldn't really pass any significant domestic legislation his last six years in office. donald trump only passed one significant piece of legislation over his four year. so for a decade, gridlock has been the rule, not the exception. somehow, some way, that's changed fairly radically over the past year. >> yeah, joe, i'd go even further and say that, you know, what has been enacted under

biden, not just in the last couple of weeks but through the whole 18 months, is more significant than both of bill clinton's terms as president. and markablely both of barack obama's. that's just at 18 months. maybe it is something to do with the fact we do have this existential climate with trump and the stop the steal stuff going on. there is only a majority -- there is no majority. it is 50/50. that lack of a cushion that clinton had and obama had, they had big senate majorities for most or a lot of their time, the lack might have created what biden has been able to push through historic bills. the climate stuff, though it lacks a carbon tax, it incentivizes a rapid shift to renewable energy. it's the first time america has been able to enact this after

decades of trying. really since the '92 rio conference bush senior attended. the right of the federal government to negotiate lower drug prices from the pharma companies. the pharma companies always won until now. this really breaks that down. it is potentially very significant. the chips act, the semiconductor bill, which as you point out, was bipartisan, is, in terms of the scale of public science research, equivalent to what eisenhower pushed through in the '50s that resulted in the internet. all of these are really significant, long-term pieces of legislation. i can only conclude, and i think this is probably a fair only observation, that biden's greatest weapon is low expectations. his lack eloquence. he doesn't speak -- >> always has been. >> always has been. he's really above the expectation.

these are historic bills. >> just like ronald reagan who, his power was that his critics from the very beginning underestimated him. they underestimated him in '66 when he ran for governor. underestimated him in 1980. they were mocking him throughout his presidency. he became one of the most significant presidents of the 20th century. you look at biden and the parallel right now, mike barnicle, i'm looking at -- i know you have a question for ed luce -- but you look at biden, you look atlbj. two people in the senate a long time, masters of the senate. they know how this works. they know when you lean in. they know when you back out. they know how to get things done. you look at this track record, this legislaive track record, and, objectively, it is the most significant in a very, very long time for a united states president. >> i totally agree, joe.

yet, my question to ed luce has to do with exactly that. it is a significant, significant chapter in american political history, this passage of all of the pieces of legislation that ed just mentioned, that we all know about. prescription costs going down. chips bill. new plants being built, probably in the state of ohio, a key state, to provide more chips for the united states of america, rather than begging china for more chip production. things like that. ed, constantly, what has happened -- and i'm interested in your view on this, from sort of an outside point of view that you have -- is the coverage of joe biden. the coverage of the legislation that was just passed, it didn't pass overnight because someone decided to vote for it instead of against it. it passed, largely, because the president of the united states is, as joe pointed out, a creature of the senate. he talks to people a lot. he talked to a lot of the

senators, members of the house, a lot in order to move this legislation forward. yet, in the coverage of the passage of this legislation, no matter how favorable the coverage of passage was, there's always an overset. it's his age. you know, this legislation passed, but we have to remember, joe biden is 106 years old. things like that. somehow, we can't seem to get away from separating the two. the progress he makes in legislation that will enhance people's lives, and the fact that he is 79 years old or 78 years of age. what is your view of that, the coverage of it? >> well, maybe to channel joe, he is exploiting other people's youth and inexperience. i mean, the way that he played the mcconnell situation after passing the chips act. mcconnell thought, you have nothing else to pass so we can

afford to be bipartisan on this. he then flips joe manchin, which i assume chuck schumer, he already knew about, manages to pass this inflation, slightly oddly named inflation reduction act. it is really the climate and tax bill. this was something that a president, you know, with experience and age and particularly experience in the senate, but eight years in the white house, could pull off. somebody who, say, a jimmy carter figure who only just turned up might have found a little harder. i should also mention, though, if we are contrasting biden's record with, say, obama and clinton, clinton had eight years, really, of holiday from history. there were foreign policy issues, but they weren't big, geopolitical threats. even under obama, although putin annexed crimea, it wasn't the same roiling geopolitical storms

into which biden has been thrown. he is handling these pretty well at the same time. particularly the russia attack on ukraine at the same time. >> yes. >> that gives him an extra dimension and his experience an extra dimension. >> i have to say, i have to say, mike brings up such a great point about the coverage of it. i mean, here's a guy, whether you voted for him or not, here's a guy that has overseen the expansion of nato, has pushed back on russian tyranny, has been praised by zelenskyy as, effectively, the difference-maker. expanded our nato alliance to its greatest degree ever. we are more strategically safe now than we've ever been. he's done it all while avoiding world war iii. yet, there are people who want you to know, he fell off a bike. >> that would be like --

>> this is a guy who passed the inflation reduction act, the chips act, the pact act. >> yes. >> the most significant gun law, bipartisan gun safety law in over 20 years, the most significant veterans health bill in 20 to 30 years. killed the leader of al qaeda that we've been after for 20 year. >> mm-hmm. >> but, mika, what they want you to know is, somehow, when he is going up steps on the airplane, he stumbles. i mean, it's -- >> ridiculous. >> it's -- >> look -- >> if that's all they've got, that's all they've got. it's pretty weak stuff. >> it would be like every time trump did something during his presidency, we said, "oh, he did this, but he is obese." something that could lead to him dying. you know, i mean, it is just -- you don't know, most people

don't, and joe biden is a success. there is successes happening in this presidency, and i don't know if approval ratings mean so much right now. they could change, and i say this as a warning to my fellow democrats. his approval ratings could change. when you have a string of successes, sometimes they do. i mean, does that math add up, joe, or is this naive on my part? do approval ratings change? >> of course they do. we've seen over the past several months a disconnect between the president's approval ratings and the generic ballot for democrats. but i've said it time and again, it gets so tiring. i'm going to say it again for these democrats who are sitting there and just scared. democrats, they get so scared so easily.

yes, ronald reagan, his party was destroyed in '82. '84, he wins. barack obama, massive victory. he loses, gets crushed in 2010. his party is crushed in 2010. it's supposed to be the end in 2012. what happens? barack obama is re-elected. i can go back in history. 1964, goldwater wiped off the map. we're told after that loss, the morning after that loss, that goldwater has destroyed the republican party forever. couple years later, the reagan conservative revolution begins in california and changes the face of politics. i can go back even further. go back to abraham lincoln in 1864 and the beginning of 1864.

lincoln didn't expect to get re-elected. republicans didn't expect that he would even win the nomination of his own party in 1864. then sherman decided to take a trip to georgia. >> right. >> and everything changed. yes, politics is fluid. a week really is -- i guess it was mcmillen who said, in politics, a week is a lifetime. it is a lifetime. again, we were talking about earlier this morning, how merrick garland shouldn't look at the political calendar when determining when justice is carried out. he should just do his job. it is the same thing with joe biden. don't look at the political calendar. just keep rolling up these wins. in the end, i've said it time and again, in the end, quality always wins. so if he keeps winning legislatively, the numbers will catch up to him. coming up, as former president trump tries to sow

disinformation about the search of his florida home, could we soon see the same m.o. from foreign aversaies like china and russia? also ahead, as the old saying goes, all politics is local, but a new book explores how local politics are leading to the demise of our national democracy. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. anyone who e and auto insurance saves. isn't that right phil? sorry, i'm a little busy. what in the world are you doing? i'm in the metaverse, bundling my home and auto insurance. why don't you just do that in the real world? um, because now i can bundle in space. watch this. save up to 25% when you bundle home and auto. call a local agent or 1-888-allstate for a quote today. vo: as families struggle with inflation... call a local agent or 1-888-allstate congress and president biden are doing something about it. the inflation reduction act will reduce costs for millions of families.

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say in the holocaust or even in the situation with russia and ukraine right now, we want teachers to have the flexibility to delve into those topics and to ask difficult questions. yes, you should talk about these atrocities that have happened in history, but you also do have an obligation to point out the value that each individual brings to the table. maybe you listen to it from the perspective of a german soldier.

>> that was a republican representative from ohio earlier this year, trying to defend a controversial bill proposed in the state's house by arguing that teachers should educate students about both sides of the holocaust. extreme positions like that one are just one of the reasons our next guest says the most dangerous attacks on american democracy are happening at the state level. david pepper is the former chairman of ohio's democratic party and author of the new book "a simple choice." also with us, founder and ceo of all in together, lauren leader. good to have you both with us. david, let's talk about this concept of what's happening at the state level. where do you think the threat lies? >> if you look closely, the front line of the attack on democracy and core rights is at the statehouse level. over the last several decades, these have become -- these

institutions because of gerrymandering, voter suppression, and the fact people don't pay attention to them, they are the perfect place to ram through a deeply unpopular and extreme agenda without having any accountability. you were talking the prior segment how the only thing that happened when trump was president was a tax cut. that's because most of what they're doing, they do through statehouses where no one is watching. almost their entire agenda, from attacking abortion rights to anti-equality, to banning books to attacking voters, it's all through statehouses because they can do it there and get away with it and not get knocked out of office. if you want to put into place a minority world view, you can do it through statehouses in a way that would never work at washington or the local level. until democrats go to where that battle is and get beyond just federal, the other side will always be on offense in those statehouses. >> lauren leader, your group, all in together, often is

fighting for the rights of women, for the voices that don't get heard as often or treated fairly. what is your group doing on this front? >> yeah. david is right about how undemocratic, in some ways, statehouses are across the country. i pulledsome numbers. there are statehouses with republican trifectas. you have 30 statehouses that are republican majority versus 18 democrat. 31 state senates versus 18 democrats. if you look at the breakdown of where voters are in many of the states, it doesn't match up. even in ohio where there is a republican trifecta, there's more democrats registered in the state. david is right, that one of the fundamental issues is that americans don't get involved in state politics. for years now, some of the most contentious and important issues are being litigated in the statehouses. a big part of what we try to do

is get voters, especially women voters, to start focusing on who their state representatives sen show up to vote. we talked about how often state legislators run unopposed in places like florida and georgia. you have a very substantial number of seats that run with no democrat. even trying to, you know, fight those republican candidates. it is a serious problem, and americans really need to start focusing. the supreme court is pushing more and more issues back to the states. americans need to pay attention to where the most important politics is happening. >> yeah. don't just get out the vote and vote yourself, but step up and run. mike barnicle. >> david, my question to you has to do with two political parties. the republican party and democratic party on a national basis. don't we sort of have to give credit where credit is due? fully, think, a majority of

states, state legislators, secretary of state offices, which is going to be critical in terms of who votes and how they vote and what votes are counted in the following -- in 2024 and 2026, the republicans seem to put more energy, more money, more emphasis on helping republican parties in various states build their parties and build their ability to get people elected than do the democrats. do you agree with that, and what do you figure the cost will be? >> for a generation -- and, by the way, it is beyond the republican party. it's the koch brothers. a generation ago, they figured out it was a much better investment for them to control democracy through statehouse than try to win in a fair fight in congress. i won't give them credit on extreme gerrymandering or voter suppression. they've taken the power in statehouses and used it to subvert democracy. democrats are catching up.

yeah, they're pay ahead. i want to pick up, though, on one thing lauren said. this is something i try to go through in my book, laboratories of autocracies. this is not only that they are in majorities when they're not in majority states. but almost a person in the statehouse, not a single one ever worries about an election ever. they're either unchallenged or it is such a blowout, they might as well be, or the other side is underfunded. once you take political accountability out of the equation of the individual office holders' minds, all the incentives we think lead to good behavior. good public outcomes. don't be an extremist, you'll lose your office. once there is no accountability, all those get warped. we have incentives to be extremists. that's how you get ahead in the broken, undemocratic systems. you don't need good results because, back home, they can't vote you out anyway. there is more incentive to do the bidding of private interest at the state capitol.

they are paying attention, even if people back home aren't. they also have this terrible incentive to keep subverting democracy because, like we saw in kansas, if there is extremism and terrible public outcomes, if there is a referendum in a fair district, they'll lose. they have to keep gerrymandering. there is a downward spiral happening in so many states in a system with no accountability. all incentives are flipped on their head. until we add accountability back to the states through good candidates, but unrigging them, by supporting candidates not just in swing states for federal purposes, until we add the accountability back, i'm afraid we'll continue to see the downward spiral. >> can you speak a little more to the gerrymandering situation in ohio? it is a very specific one. there is this amazing piece in "the new yorker" this week. judges found maps in ohio

illegally gerrymandered in favor of republicans. they ran out the clock and ignored the legal ramifications of the maps. what is the solution? >> yeah. >> does the justice department need to get involved and go after states that are then blatantly ignoring the legal challenges to their maps? obviously, federal legislation is one answer, but what do we do in the case of ohio, where they literally, the legislature ignored the fact that the maps were thrown out by judges and found illegal? >> one, they broke the law for eight months, and i think there should be accountability, just like at the highest levels for breaking the law. two, ohioans have a choice this november over the supreme court races. if we want to hold the line to stop gerrymandering, we have to win those. third, and i love all the stuff you talked about with joe biden, the federal government must pass the voting rights bills in front of them. this is a critical moment. we can't let this window pass. one of the parts of those bills that would make a big difference for ohio is it would curb partisan gerrymandering. it is sitting right in front of them. if they did it, it'd help

eliminate the race to the bottom we're seeing across the country when it comes to gerrymandering. >> the new book is "a simple choice." david pepper, thank you so much for writing the book and for being on the show this morning. lauren leader, as always, thank you, as well for being on this morning. coing up, a texas woman is lucky to be alive after she was rescued from her car moments before it was sucked into a sinkhole. plus, donald trump is deposed, but only answers one question for the new york attorney general's office. we'll have more on his sudden change of heart on taking the fifth. also ahead, fbi agents in plain clothes and unarmed. new details about the peaceful search of mar-a-lago. clashing with the version being pushed by trump and other. "morning joe" returns in just a moment.

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the fbi stepping forward at this moment is demonstrated real integrity. >> when you have a presidential candidate, the fbi has a duty to we the people to investigate any appearance of impropriety. >> patriotic fbi agents are pushing and trying to do something, but this requires a full, comprehensive investigation. >> i don't know what took the fbi so long to try to get it. >> she made a choice to leave government with all these documents, as though they were her property. >> the clear intent to evade the federal records act, that is mishandling classified information. why wouldn't the fbi act on that? >> come on, are we supposed to believe that, over time, we she didn't know what the rules were? >> it is a federal crime to negligently handle the documents. >> my verdict, based on the evidence, is guilty.

>> it's the "daily show" talking about, of course, how these people thought that the fbi should have investigated when classified material was mission mishandled. now, some of the same people are making dark, ominous threats, now comparing the fbi to stalin, now suggesting that this is a banana republic. now saying we have to go to war against the fbi. these people hate law and order. >> yeah. >> i thought they were the party of law and order. they don't believe in the rule of law when it applies to the most powerful. i guess -- >> very striking, that mashup of hypocrisy. >> there is also another striking mashup.

i was just reading pete waner, his "atlantic" article, "now they're calling for violence." the quotes in here, mike barnicle, they are just absolutely unbelievable. i can't even repeat some of what has been said here. but de souza said the fbi, organization to fight organize sized crime, is one of the most violent syndicates in the world. we need to shut down the fbi, prosecute its gang of dangerous criminals. newt gingrich suggested the fbi could have planted evidence against trump. he said, we'd be better off to think of these people -- newt gingrich, damn you. you know better. you're saying that americans should think of the fbi as wolves?

christopher wray as wolves? of people who you know, who protect americans against criminals, against terrorists, you are taking another cheap shot at law enforcement officers when they don't serve your interest, in saying we'd be better off to think of the fbi as wolves? wolves who want to eat you? wolves who want to dominate you? newt, you say the fbi has, quote, declared war on the american people? the ugly face of tyranny. chris wray, a guy that donald trump praised as the man of the highest, highest integrity? told you about fox news, fox news hinting the fbi set up trump. they declared war on us, and now it is game on. again, these are the same people who were panicking on january

6th. the same people on january 6th who panicked once the violence that they helped cause began. because they followed donald trump's lies. you have mark levin, seriously? talking about hillary clinton and classified material. now, he says it is a stalinist hunt. i mean, what -- i can't even use the words that are most appropriate there. you have, mike barnicle, a madisonian democracy. it is something i've talked about a very long time. we have checks and balances. donald trump hated those checks and balances. he hated madisonian democracy. he hated the fact that judges, that judges actually could check his illegal actions, could

pushback against his breaking of constitutional norms. here, you have two branches. you have the executive branch and the judicial branch working together. what did they do? they enacted a legal search warrant. and you have all of these freaks, fools, insurrectionists, and people who were causing violence in america, these people who hate law enforcement, these people who were declaring war against the fbi, the federal bureau of investigation, because it doesn't serve their political purposes for the moment. they're declaring war and calling -- newt, you're calling christopher wray a wolf who wants to eat the american -- what's wrong with you? what's wrong with you? what a freak you are. what's wrong with you? mike barnicle, help, help me here. >> joe, while you're talking

about one of the greatest political turns in recent political history, if you harken back to 1968, the republicans, nixon campaigned for president, captured and controlled the law and order vote. 1968 campaign following nixon around the country, you would think there is a strangler out there in every shadow in every community in the country, just lurking, waiting to kill innocent civilians, innocent citizens. they've had the law and order issue in their back pocket for 50 years, i'd say, 50 years. until something turned. until january 6th and probably prior to january 6th. but after january 6th, you had huge elements of the republican party, largely elected officials who began this, and they now resemble something out of jonestown. they're all drinking the same kool-aid. the idea that they're trying the

to promote here after the issuance of a search warrant and the application at mar-a-lago, that the fbi is a wing of the democratic party, is laugh out loud funny. laugh out loud preposterous. >> right. >> the fbi, a friend of the democratic party. ask hillary clinton what she thinks about that aspect of it. >> oh, yeah. >> the danger is -- >> mike, that's the joke, mike. that's the joke. donald trump is president of the united states because of the fbi. he is president of the united states -- >> yes. >> -- and he knows it and they know it, because of the fbi. because of the timing of james comey's actions. he knows it. and the fbi had people inside that were leaking things throughout the entire process. they're human beings inside the fbi, right, just like there are in every organization. people who don't always do the

right thing. but, by and large, by and large, they do good work. they followed the letter of the law here. these people that were, as you said, mike, were for law and order, always talked about law and order, that all changed when donald trump became president of the united states. they declared war against the fbi. they constantly attack the fbi with conspiracy theories, just crazed, crazed conspiracy theories. and then they, on january 6th, mika, they go after capitol hill cops. some of the same people begging donald trump to call off the attack. talking about wolves? >> yeah. >> you talk about wolves? the attacks on january 6th, the same people that were begging trump to call off the attack are the same people who are now attacking the fbi.

trying to whip these same people into a frenzy that will lead to violence. and if you don't believe me, look at what is gong on online. ben collins, of course, who studies this every day for nbc, says he hasn't seen this level of violence online since january 6th. says that it may be even worse than january 6th. all the people that pete waner wrote about, they're doing it again. i don't know how many times i have to say this. they're doing it again. they are trying to rile these people up and cause a violent reaction. >> joining the conversation, we have former senior operations officer with the cia, mark polymeropoulos. good to have you on the show this morning. so the fbi's search of mar a will go, there are demands for,

answers for an explanation. this long after a peaceful search that was executed with a search warrant, all the requirements that one must have to execute a search warrant like this fulfilled, supposedly, and we will find out, but does the fbi owe anybody any explanations at this moment? >> well, first, mika, thanks for having me on. let me just -- before i answer that, i think we should ask john bolton what he thinks of the fbi right now. >> right. >> remember, the fbi has done an extraordinary job of uncovering an iranian plot to kill our former national security adviser. >> and mike pompeo. >> and mike pompeo. let's be careful on denigraing the men and women of law enforcement who do a lot of good they thinks for us globally. look, the fbi, from all accounts, acted professionally. when i hear the notion of raid, i've been on raids. raids is when you breach a door, there's explosive, guns are out.

you're looking for something in a location. this is something i did overseas, but this was not a raid. this was a simple search. the rhetoric has gone completely out of control. one thing i do, i look at these from the perspective of how the world looks at us. the concept of no one being above the law is a really good concept. we should celebrate that. if i was overseas at a diplomatic reception right now serving for the united states government, someone asked me about this, i would say just that. it's a country of law and order. the last point is, you know, democracy survived these things. for goodness sakes, israeli prime ministers have gone to jail. same in france, as well. the republic is going to survive. this was a simple search. doj has procedures not to release any information. we would like some more transparency, we get that. for goodness sake, the rhetoric is so out of control. we need some politicians, particularly -- well, mostly on the right, to tamp this all down. it is getting into dangerous territory. as joe said before, this reminds me of the period around january 6th. >> yeah, this is incredibly

dangerous, joe. i feel it. every time i turn on the television, what i see doesn't just only disturb me and feels wrong, but it feels really scary at this point. i mean, the people who are taking advantage of this information right now and using it irresponsibly in front of millions of people, they know, they know the election was not stolen. >> these people caused -- >> they -- >> these people caused january 6th. they put out movies. "12 donkeys" or whatever. they put out crazy conspiracy theories. they would go on radio every day and spread these crazy, bizarre lies. italian dudes have switched votes with their satellite dishes. >> right. >> there's bamboo in ballots in arizona. there are jewish space lasers

that are being, like, zapped. these are freaks who have spread conspiracy theories. unfortunately, mike barnicle, as we look at these pictures, there are people that fed in and believed those conspiracy theories, just like there were good, christian people who watched jim and tammy faye bakker every day because they loved jesus. they fell for that routine, too. here, we have these people, these irresponsible people that are stoking violence right now, who are preying on people's love of country and their patriotism, and feeding them lies every day, which will, let me say it again, lead to this if they don't stop. if they don't stop. by the way, this starts at the top. this starts at the top.

kevin mccarthy and mitch mcconnell need to tell people in their caucus to be careful about the conspiracy theories they repeat because it will lead to violence. the murdochs need to tell their reporters to be careful on fox news, to be careful about what they say on the air. because what they said on the air before led to violence. the lies about voting machines have put them in a position where they may have to pay out $1 billion. i'm not saying this because i hate fox news. i'm saying this because i love america, and i fear that america may face another riot like we saw on january 6th. these lies have to stop. all right? they have to stop. because we have an example of where lies in the past like this have led us to a riot on january

6th. i'm actually shocked, and i can't believe i'm so naive that i'm shocked, but i am actually shocked that after these riots, which horrified them while they were happening, caused by their words, but then horrified them while they were happening, that these same people are now going back for another shot of this. >> there you go. >> joe, the loudest voices are winning the day. the loudest voices are being heard throughout the country, throughout the republican party. my question to the republican party, to republican senators, republican members of the house of representatives, do you know the meaning of the word "character"? have you ever heard of margaret chase smith, who stood up alone in the well of the senate, stood and spoke against senator joseph mccarthy in the early 1950s? a true danger to america at that time. where are they? where is mitt romney?

where is rob portman? where are the moderate, sensible republicans? why don't they stand up and speak and combat the loudest voices among us? >> what i want to know is, why won't republicans -- i'll take any republicans. there are a lot of good republicans. i have a lot of republican friends in the senate. some republican friends in the house. it'd be so good to hear one come out today and say, "you know what, we respect the fbi. we respect the men and women at the fbi. we want more information, but we understand. we understand in america there is a process. we've got great respect for the fbi. and we discourage members of our caucus from attacking the fbi, declaring war on the fbi, suggesting that the fbi planted evidence on donald trump. these conspiracy theories lead to violence. please, everybody, stand down.

take a deep breath." i would love to hear mitt romney or rob portman say that. you pick it, any republican senator. mitch mcconnell should say it. he's the leader of the republicans. i mean, mitch said a couple days ago that he wanted -- that the doj should come forward and give information. it wasn't irresponsible to say. i understand why he said it, because walter isaacson said the same thing. but we need republicans to do more. we need them to step forward and defend the fbi and defend trump appointee christopher wray. >> larry hogan, the governor of maryland, said something just like that. he is one of the few voices that said, you know, we'd like more transparency, what happened, but, everyone, take a deep breath. i they that'd be the responsible thing to do. one last point, our adversaries overseas are watching.

this is catnip for russia russia and china. everything being stirred up is making america less safe. you know, there's an internal component on this. the united states also has an external component. they'll push the disinformation campaigns into the u.s. the russians have done it before, chinese, too. it is time for everyone to take a deep breath. we need moderate voices to say, no one is above the law. maybe more transparency from the doj, up for debate. seems people forget, they have to remember january 6th. it was a terrifying time in the country, and i fear we are heading right back into that situation. >> yeah. before we get to our next guest, i would say, you know, we can even balance things out more by, joe, saying, you don't have to defend the fbi. but how about ask yes? wait for the peaceful investigation to play out. allow time for information to be

released. allow the questions to be asked. >> right. >> you don't have to defend it. >> don't suggest -- >> you don't have to suggest they are -- >> -- they are planting evidence. >> right. >> don't call them wolves that are going to devour the american people. >> you don't know anything. >> again, that is language that leads to violence. let's bring in right now political correspondent from "the new york times," michael c. bender. he has been reporting on congressional republicans' reaction to the search. michael, i'm sure you have a lot more information than i do. i brought up mitch mcconnell's statement the other day. he said, hey, the doj should step forward and be as open as they can be. i mean, that's something that we've heard walter isaacson and others say on this show, as well. that certainly is far more mainstream than rand paul suggesting the fbi may have planted evidence. what are congressional republicans saying that -- have we heard from mitt romney? have we heard anything from ben sasse? anything from republicans that usually speak out against this sort of madness?

>> well, there are some gaps in the republican party here, but what we've seen so far is a remarkable unity behind donald trump. it is just another sign of this -- you know, his overhaul, his reordering of the republican party. in such a thorough way that, you know, trump has made the political calculation here that this is going to have positive political repercussions for him. i mean, that's the world we live in right now, joe. an fbi search of someone's home can be viewed as a positive politically. >> all right. >> and so any suggestion, have you heard anything about republicans possibly stepping forward and saying something in defense of the fbi? >> well, the only kind of measured responses we've heard from the republican party have

been folks like pete meijer. you know, someone who voted against trump, voted to impeach trump and paid for that byget ing knocked out of office in a primary earlier this month. he wants to hear more from the justice department, as well. this is, obviously, a remarkable moment, not just for donald trump and the presidency, but also for the justice department. you know, i think we're -- as we see some more details trickle out here about, you know, the definition of a search here, that they went in plain clothes, without weapons, you know, they're being forced to respond to this because of how trump is handling this, which is not revealing his own receipts of this search, but by putting his allies out on fox news, you know, wall to wall. putting family members out on fox news wall to wall to portray him as political prey here, instead of a criminal target. you know, this has the effect of

pushing trump where he is most effective, which is as a victim. >> michael c. bender, we'll be reading your reporting in "the new york times." thank you very much. mark polymeropoulos, thank you, as well. still ahead on "morning joe," we'll have more on former president trump's mounting legal woes. the former lead prosecutor from the mueller investigation will be here on what it is like, investigating the trump family. and up next, george conway on why he thinks the justice department shouldn't be saying anything about the reasons for searching trump's florida home. plus, the ceo of global citizen will be here with a major announcement. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. pool floaties are like whooping cough. amusement parks are like whooping cough. even ice cream is like whooping cough,

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david ignatius, we haven't talked to you since this all came down. obviously, when you have the fbi going in to a former president's home, there's going to be people on both sides wondering what's going on. we've, of course, heard some voices from the right. "washington post" columnists saying that the doj needs to be more transparent. we have walter isaacson, very respective newsman who was on our show a couple days ago, saying the same thing. that the doj needs to show their hand a bit more than usual and let americans know why they did that. but you talk to legal scholars, and they'll say it's not the doj's job. it's not the fbi's job. they don't do what comey did

during the 2016 election and keep a running commentary going while pursuing possible criminal charges. i'd love to know what your take is on where this is, what the doj's responsibility is as far as transparency goes. >> joe, the first thing i think is that as you look at all these different investigations, you just see this classic picture of the walls closing in on somebody who is suspected of criminal activity. this is a multi-dictional series of probes. most go through the justice department, but not all. our attorney general merrick garland is the most renascent attorney general i can remember. i started covering the justice department in the 1970s, and i don't remember an ag who spoke more quietly. he was a circuit court judge, nominated for the supreme court.

he has judicial temperament. he is cautious. he is conscious of the rules that guard prosecutions. he wants to make sure that those rules are enforced. grand jury secrecy is absolutely central to our system. grand juries collect information in secret, and prosecutors should not disclose it. but he is also conscious of his role. for the last year, he said he is going to be conducting a wide-ranging investigation of the insurrection on january 6th, using every u.s. attorney's office in the country, every fbi office. he said that openly, publicly, repeatedly. we're now beginning to see the fruits of that investigation. people didn't believe merrick garland when he said this was going to be a probe of that scope, but it is.

we now see that. each of these investigations have a slightly different beginning. the new york attorney general's investigation is entirely different from some of the others. we still don't know exactly what the fbi agents were going after when they searched mar-a-lago, except trump's attorney said they took 12 boxes of materials, which implies these were 12 boxes they didn't get before when they went to search and took 15. there was more they were looking for. they knew what they were going after. i think the basic point that people should remember is that merrick garland is an unusually careful and sensible attorney general. i think he'll do well. the country may focus on what is he doing? is he being too aggressive? merrick garland's demeanor is, i think, for most reasonable people, disprove that argument. >> yeah. you know, george conway, let's bring in george conway, contributing columnist for "the washington post."

george, there have been people like myself who have been saying for years it seems donald trump is above the law. you have, of course, manhattan d.a.s, prosecutors who say they have him dead to center on criminal charge, then the d.a. backs down. you have other people in the past who have backed down. mueller investigation just sort of stopped, despite the fact mueller said he didn't exonerate donald trump. but here, i guess what's so surprising about this is we're talking about classified documents which, of course, are extremely important. but you have what's going on in new york state. you have what's going on in a larger doj investigation, most likely, over the insurrection and over president leading a seditious coup. of course, then you have what may end up being the most troubling for him, the grand jury in georgia. i'm curious, do you agree with david ignatius, that this is just the beginning of the

ex-president's legal problems? i also am curious, your thoughts on the doj's handling of this thus far. >> well, i do agree, this is -- i think the walls are closing in on him. there are so many different investigations. there's also civil suits that are chasing him down. i think, bit by bit, we're finally going to see the processes apply to him. he had his deposition taken yesterday by the new york attorney general. there are some civil depositions coming up, and he is being forced, essentially, to put up or shut up in these investigations. yesterday, he, you know, took the fifth 440 times, which is basically the most respect i think he's ever shown for the constitution of the united states. but the georgia case, i think, is particularly one to keep looking out for. it's the one that sort of seems to be moving ahead the most quickly. but i think this documents investigation is one that we

haven't heard the last of. i mean, david is absolutely right about the innate cautiously and by the book nature of merrick garland. i think that he is handling this absolutely perfectly. i don't think the justice department should be saying anything more than it already has said, which is basically nothing about this, because that's what the rule of law requires. that is what grand jury secrecy requires. the whole point of this exercise is that nobody is above the law. the law applies equally to you and i, to the rich and the poor, to ex-presidents and just regular citizens. one of those protection people have is grand jury secrecy and the presumption of innocence. the reason why the justice department does not say anything about ongoing investigations, except in unusual circumstances or when indictments are there is to protect the reputations of those that are the subject of investigation.

if he really thinks that there is a witch hunt going on with these documents that were at mar-a-lago, he should tell us exactly what happened. show us the search warrant. what was the government looking for? what did they take? he has a list of what they took, or should have a list, and that would tell us a great deal. but he doesn't want to say anything because he knows it's not going to be helpful to him, i'm sure. just as actually answering questions from letitia james yesterday wasn't going to be helpful to him. u.s. gas prices has fallen below $4 a gallon for the first time in months, but there's looming concerns of a possible recession. we'll have the very latest from cnbc ahead on "morning joe."

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call and start saving today. comcast business. powering possibilities. the justice department announced a member of iran's islamic revolutionary guard has been charged in a plot to kill former national security adviser john bolton. the 45-year-old iranian operative is accused of attempting to arrange bolton's assassination, likely in retaliation for the killing of an iranian force commander in 2020. offering to pay $300,000 to individuals in the u.s. to carry out the act. former secretary of state mike pompeo is also reportedly the target of an assassination plot, as well. >> david ignatius, obviously, this just doesn't happen. just doesn't happen. i was going to say very often. >> does it?

>> usually -- how do i say this? countries are not dumb enough to target former american officials because they know hell that will rain down on them after. what are your thoughts about this plot to murder former u.n. ambassador and national security adviser? >> so, joe, i think it is very serious. it is a sign that iran has attempted to take what it sees as revenge for the killing of soleimani, the head of the force. officials have been operating under unusual security in the several years since that attack for fear of iranian reprisals. this is the first specific evidence of a plot. the iranians are dangerous. they use force all over the middle east, and they think hard about taking revenge for what

they see as attacks on their own people. john bolton was part of the decision making process, but there are many other officials who were closer to the point of the spear, if you will, who were involved in this operation. i'm sure there's concern about their security, as well. but this is an unusual disclosure about iran. it comes at a time when the u.s. and iran are just getting back to the negotiating table to talk about the revival of the nuclear agreement. makes it harder to do a deal with an iran that is known to be trying to kill a former national security adviser. >> keeping in mind, the justice department, the department of defense, all connected to this, trying to figure out what happened. and mike pompeo, a huge trumper. so very departments that right-wing extremists are now castigating. they are doing their job when it comes to mike pompeo. i don't know how you square that. >> for all americans, and they

do it every day, mika. this is what is deeply offensive to me, and it has been for quite some time. i talked about it a couple weeks ago before this raid was moving forward. the attacks against the fbi had slowed down a little bit, and i thought it'd be a good time to reflect a little on the fact that republicans who used to support law enforcement before january 6th, republicans who used to support the fbi before donald trump came into office, have been slandering the fbi for years now. for years. it is, of course, ironic, because it was the fbi that helped elect donald trump because of some of the things that james comey did. i'm not saying he did it deliberately to elect donald trump, but certainly did. there was a faction inside the fbi, we're quite aware of it, that was anti-hillary, and it was widely reported.

that said, though there are human beings inside the fbi, just like there are human beings inside the church, just like there are human beings inside the government, it is an organization that is dedicated to protecting all americans. all americans when they go to work. all americans when they get on the subway. all americans when they get on airplanes. all americans when they move about their daily lives. for republicans to continue to slander and trash professionals who have dedicated their lives to making all of us safer is just so deeply, deeply offensive. coming up, on the heels of a string of democratic successes, we'll be joined by a white house senior adviser to weigh in on the party's messaging plan ahead of the midterms. "morning joe" is back in a moment.

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♪♪ gas prices have fallen for 58 days in a row. aaa is reporting the national average for gasoline is now under $4, holding at $3.99 a gallon. couple the gas prices news with the better-than-expected numbers in july's inflation report. is there relief on the horizon? >> let's bring in former treasury official and "morning joe" economic analyst, steve rattner. let's talk, first of all, about yesterday's inflation report. what do you got for us? >> well, let me try to unpack it a little for you, joe. sometimes these inflation numbers are confusing. month over month, year-over-year, especially when you have so much going on in the economy. if you start with the chart on the left, the red line is the -- is what is happening month to month, from june to july in this case. you can see, hopefully, that the

red line has gone all the way down to the zero line. in other words, there was no inflation from june to july. why was there no inflation from june to july? you have to look at those colored bars below, and you can see that gasoline declined, as you mentioned, very substantially. that exactly offset the increases and other prices. they zeroed each other out. without that change in gasoline prices, you would have had inflation at around a 5% rate. still a lot better than what we've seen. still a bit more than what we want. now, if you look at it year-over-year, so this july compared to last year, you can see that prices are rising still steeply, although slightly less steeply. last month in june, they were up 9.1%. that came down to 8.5% in july. a little less than people expected. that is all good news.

that is all good news. but it is important to note that even if prices didn't go up at all the rest of this year, we'd still have 6.5% inflation this year. >> yeah, let's talk about gas prices. i saw several people who are not fans of joe biden seeming to be angry about the fact that gas prices have gone down. gone dowd the world to know that only reason they went down is because demand went down. i don't know if that is the case or not. i'm just glad if a consumer, if a working american wants to get a gallon of gas, it is a lot cheaper than a month ago. what would you tell us about falling gas prices, even in the midst of a ukrainian/russian war that just keeps going. >> it is kind of unamerican to be against falling gas prices to be unhappy when gas prices fall. and they have fallen for a few reasons and that has to do with the demand side. there is not a new supply, we're producing more but that is not just to matter. what is really happening is a couple of things.

first, china is very slow at the moment. and they're gas, their overall oil usage has been very uncharacteristically low and that is had an impact on prices. and secondly that there has been demand destruction and people are using less and using less gasoline. 9% this season than last. and the europeans, because of the war in ukraine, are also taking measures to cut back on their oil use and all of that has had a positive effect on oil prices. >> you know, i want to go -- let's see how nimble we could be here. i wan to go to the third chart. falling real wages. hurting sentiment and in the third chart we look at wages versus consumer sentiment. take us through that chart if you will. >> sure. we could -- that is -- that is the crux of the matter to some degree. and the reason why we've had so

much pessimism or unhappiness amorn the american public is in large part because they are falling behind. if you look at the left side of the chart, the blue line is what is happening to wage growth and you could see before the pandemic, through the pandemic and until earlier this year, the blue line was substantially above the red line. which is price increases and therefore americans were getting better off every month or every day for that matter. if you look at the right side, those are flipped around. as inflation took off, wages have gone up but not by nearly as much as how much prices are going up and that is the crux of the matter for most americans. you have 6.3% wage growth and 8.5% price growth. and then you could see the implication of that on the the right in consumer sentiment which has reached a record low. it has for a month and we should never make too much of a month, it does look like it bottoms out for one month, whether it is

because of falling gas prices or the president's great successes on so much other things, i can't say but we'll see what happens next month. but the ying and yang of this also, and this is the point that people don't like to always say out loud, wages are the biggest opponent of what any company does and if you're paying out wage increases of 6.7%, you are going to drive inflation way above the fed's 2% target. >> the global citizen festival is returning to central park next month. the co-founder and ceo of global citizen hugh evans joins us next with a look at the star-studded lineup. "morning joe" is coming right back.

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age is just a number. and mine's unlisted. try boost® high protein with 20 grams of protein for muscle health. versus 16 grams in ensure high protein. boost® high protein also has key nutrients for immune support. boost® high protein. a global citizen is someone who self identifies first and foremost as a member of the

human race. they exist in every country, and among every demographic. every single one of the majors we face from poverty, gender equality could only be solved by global citizens demanding global solutions from their leaders. but how did we actually go about recruiting and engaging those global citizens. we used the universal language, music. we launched the global citizen festival and we persuaded some of the world's biggest artists to participate. we made sure that these festivals coincided with the u.n. general assembly meeting so that leaders who need to hear our voices couldn't possibly ignore them. turning now to global citizen's fight to defend the planet and defeet poverty.

this year's tenth annual festival is takes place on september 24th in new york city and ghana with a star-studded lineup. it is the largest world movement dedicated to end extreme poverty and this year global citizens are calling on world leaders to help relief crushing debts and close the climate finance gap and power young girls and alleviate the global food crisis. and joining us with a special announcement, global citizen ceo hugh evans. >> thank you so much for being with us. as always, we follow what you've been doing through the years. and have been so moved by you and your friends. across the world, community effort to end poverty, to end extreme poverty, to fight climate change and now of course you're -- you have some more specific goals this year. one of them, empowering girls.

talk about that. >> well firstly i want to say a huge thank you to yourself, joe and mika, without you and the "morning joe" team global citizen wouldn't be what it is today. and thank you as we celebrate the 10th anniversary for the festival for being such extraordinary partners on this journey. this year we're thrilled to announce that the global citizen festival is coming to the great lawn of central park. headlined by metallica, by mary a carry, and dharly plodge and jonas brothers and hosted by preancas jonas and we're here in west africa headlined by -- and jackie boy, an incredible lineup of artists to unite the world behind the urgent issues as you said earlier of empowering girls now of taking climate action now and ending extreme poverty now.

>> talk about ghana. why ghana an the importance of that to global citizen community. >> this year, joe, marks ghana's verse of the independence from britain and the 20th anniversary of the african union. ghana has been a beacon of hope and democracy for the west african region and across the world but in light of the war in ukraine, the covid pandemic and climate change, ghana is now crippled by debt. it is serving 30% of the entire budget in debt payments per annum which is just unsustainable. so we need to take urge ents action now to strengthen the economy and those that need it most, those living in extreme poverty. so we're united behind this mission together. that is why the world's greatest artists are coming here to ghana as well as our home on the great lawn of central park. to unite the world.

and the good thing about the global festival, you don't pay for your tickets, you earn them by taking action. so i want to encourage everyone to download the global citizen app and start taking action today as part of the movement. you don't need -- we don't need your money, we want your voice. >> a love the way global citizen operates. it really changes the game and draws especially young people in. mike barnicle, as i toss to you, i know you have a question for hugh. i love the focus on empowering young girls becauseoch that solves the other problems that is on global citizen's agenda. >> it is a huge issue, mika. huge issue, especially in areas where hugh is and where they're going to operate in ghana on global citizen day. i would like to know from you the impact that the war in ukraine has had on global citizens on the impac