hello. i'm chris jansing live in front of the historic state capitol in beautiful cheyenne, wyoming. and today a new era begins for this state as new questions are being raised for the country. with liz cheney's landslide defeat exposing the stark choices for republicans come november and the massive divide between those willing to follow donald trump and those who won't. cheney spoke about those choices last night. and even in the face of defeat it was hardly a typical concession. >> no office in this land is more important than the principles that we are all sworn

to protect. and i well understood the potential political consequences of abiding by my duty. tonight harriet hageman has received the most votes in this primary. she won. i called her to concede the race. this primary election is over. but now the real work begins. [ cheers and applause ] >> on the other side the woman who beat her, harriet hageman, spoke in trumpian terms about what this win means for her state. >> wyoming has drawn a line in the sand that if we put you in power you will be accountable to us, you will answer to us and you will do what is in our best interests. and if you don't we will fire you. >> donald trump also took a victory lapp that he'd been waiting to make for more than a year, claiming he helped send cheney to the, quote, depths of political oblivion.

but did he? you have to consider that question in the context of what surely is a fateful moment for the former president. despite federal and state investigations seeming to close in on every side, he has been able to maintain his hold over the party. of course the bigger test of that hold will be during the midterms, when his integrity and influence will once again be on the ballot. meanwhile, liz cheney's future is yet to be written. this morning the politico playbook said, "cheney lost her seat but gained something else. she is now the undisputed leader of the trump opposition." last night she talked about the work ahead, work that includes the january 6th committee and a leadership pact designed to oppose trump and what he stands for, especially if he decides to run again for president. and then there's the question of whether she herself could be his opponent. >> are you thinking about running for president? >> it -- that's a decision that i'm going to make in the coming months, savannah.

i'm not going to make any announcements here this morning. but it is something i'm thinking about, and i'll make a decision in the coming months. >> joining us to discuss is steve peck, public affairs senior producer at wyoming pbs. he's with me on set. jonathan allen has been covering this race. he's senior politics producer for nbc news digital. matthew dowd is the founder of country over party and an msnbc political analyst. ali vitali joins us from anchorage, alaska where she's been covering the other big primary that took place last night. so steve, i'm wondering what you think about what we have heard over the last 12 hours or so from liz cheney, and what do you think her next move is? you've been around this for what, 40 years plus. >> that's true. i have. and welcome to wyoming, by the way. >> thank you. >> the race reminds me sort of of a person who says i'm going to lick my finger and stick it right into a light socket. it doesn't make a lot of sense. it doesn't sound logical. you know what's going to happen. but it's still a shock when it happens. so for a year or more there's been one line of consensus really in this race, which has

been that she couldn't win. liz cheney could not win. the questions being how big the margin of defeat would be and whether the crossover vote from the democrats and the unaffiliated voters in wyoming, which is a group almost as large as the democrats, might make the margin closer. >> it didn't. >> and it didn't. and i think in terms of your question about the voters, there was some democratic crossover. but i believe that the analysis of the results will bear out that those voters were more interested in some down-ballot races at the statewide level rather than at the federal level, where the trump candidate was on the ballot three times but only won one of those. and leading to the conclusion perhaps that it's still liz cheney and her record and her rhetoric are what they are and the perception that she had become a darling of democrats, at least in this states, i think the lie was put to that last night. >> so does that rule out a run for president?

is she teasing us or is she really thinking about it? >> she's doing both. you begin by teasing, i think, and then you plunge in. what i would say to that is her wyoming problem is now behind her. she no longer has to worry about being nominated in wyoming. >> she was neff going to win a red state. >> the smallest state in the union. even though two years ago she won by a landslide. her third straight landslide, each by a bigger margin than the one that preceded it. but that's now behind her. and so being the lone member of the 435-member body from the smallest state in the union, that's not a particularly impactful position in congress, honestly. she made it more so because she was able to maneuver to the -- almost to the pinnacle of republican leadership. but that's behind her now. what he had she has is several more months of the january 6th inquiry. she's now a national figure. she has at least for the time being centrist appeal in some places. perhaps not in wyoming. but wyoming is in the rearview mirror now.

and this is not the end of the world for her, i'm sure, if what she sees is a wider path that she wants to start on now. >> all right. so you've given us a lot to unpack. matthew, we know cheney wants to commit to fighting trump and bringing the country back together. lots of people are already doing that, including you. can liz cheney be effective in that fight in a way others have not been? i mean, after all, she did raise a lot of money from all around the country. >> well, think she's already been incredibly effective in that fight. i mean, she's obviously adopted a pro-democracy, pro-constitution banner. she's one of -- we can't neglect to say she's one of the most conservative members of the republican caucus. she's one of the most conservative as defined by conservative principles. so having republicans who are conservatives stand up and say listen, i'm with you on all these other issues, i just can't be with you on destroying our democracy and lifting up autocracy, which is what it seems that donald trump wants, i

think that is a very effective tool. i don't think she's calculating whether or not she can win republican primaries in a presidential race. if i sat down with her and looked at the numbers i would tell her the same thing she probably knows, is she can't win that nomination because she's out of step. they seem to want election denialism. but i think it's a very effective platform for her to raise these national issues that's going on in every state. it's not just wyoming. it's arizona, it's michigan, it's pennsylvania, it's nevada, it's all these states. so if she can do that and continue to do that after her career as a congressperson is done, i think is incredibly important in this debate and in this fight that's happening in america today. >> so jonathan, look, obviously the numbers would not look good for her if matthew sat down with her. but last night she went ahead and talked about abraham lincoln. and i want to play a part of that. >> the great and original champion of our party, abraham

lincoln, was defeated in elections for the senate and the house before he won the most important election of all. lincoln ultimately prevailed. he saved our union. and he defined our obligation as americans for all of history. >> her message has been the party is broken and i can fix it, but republicans, many of them at least, don't seem to believe it's broken. in fact, they think trump fixed what was wrong with it. so how does she answer that? >> it's a very difficult question to answer, and i think we'll see how she's answering it over the course of time as she starts this new political action committee and as she thinks about running for president. the big problem for her is as matthew suggested there's not a path in the republican party to a nomination and if she runs as an independent it's not clear whether she would siphon more votes from donald trump or from joe biden. and i think it's impossible to project that because you're talking about state by state

elections with an independent on the ballot potentially. which swing states would she help the democrats defeat trump? which states would she end up helping trump defeat the democrats? and i think she'll do a lot of research into that. but it's a difficult question to sort of answer at this moment. we just don't know what's going to happen over the next couple of years before that presidential election. one thing i would say, though, is if you look at the people who are small d democrats, people who believe in this union, who believe in prioritizing the republic over their party, she is among the most effective voices for that message at a time in which that's the axis on which our politics are fought. it would be difficult for you to name three or four big d democrats who are better at messaging than liz cheney is. i think there will be a role for her to play in the upcoming presidential election and probably as well in the midterm elections. we'll just have to see how she determines she can best be of use. >> while we were at the harriet

hageman headquarters last night, it turned out to be a victory party, he talked to some voters there, and i couldn't resist asking them what they thought about the idea that liz cheney might run for president. and here's a sampling of what they told me. >> some people say if she doesn't win tonight she might run for president. >> it might be worse than this one. >> some people say she might run for president. >> good luck. won't happen. >> she's campaigning everywhere but here. and why? that's a good a reason as any. >> my imsxrerks it's a snapshot in time. it's not your 40 years of experience. is that there was be not a single person in that room whose mind was going to be changed because all the other issues combined about this state they felt less strongly about than they feel about her going after donald trump. >> that's absolutely true. that's the only way to explain how she could have lost considering who she is, who she's been, who her father is,

and her previous electoral success. but wyoming doesn't matter in presidential politics. wyoming's voted for the democratic candidate once in 70 years -- >> but do you think it's an indication of where the republican party is? >> it certainly is in wyoming in this particular case. but in wyoming the governor for the past 50 years has been a democrat more often than a republican has been. so i think a lot of it is focused at the tip of the funnel related to liz cheney and donald trump and impeachment and january 6th that created this position for her. one thing i have observed in presidential campaigns as well is the campaigns often are shaped at the primary level largely by the people who don't win. think of bernie sanders, for example, or -- and others. so she could have a role to play in that by debating on the stage against trump or someone else, for example, and could have an impact there, a memorable impact

if that's what she wants to do. what someone else said is very true, that we don't know what's going to happen in two years. >> we don't know what's going to happen in two days. >> no one two years ago could have predicted we'd be here now. and if they said they would, that just clanks of untruth. clanks false. i've been looking at wyoming politics for a long time. people say these are crazy times, aren't they? and i say yeah, they are. it's always crazy times in politics. and two years from now it will be again. we just don't know what's going to happen. i think we do know that she's decided she wants to be part of that and is in a position and has the knowledge and experience, the patience and the long vision where she can make sure that happens in some capacity. >> and as jonathan pointed out, the messaging skills. but let me try to get at this, matthew, from another direction. here's what was written in the "new republic." "cheney represents the idea that there are republicans out there who are horrified by what is happening to their party. there's little evidence that there are many of them, however.

cheney still has supporters in the republican party and among the masses, but all of this adds up to pockets of resistance, not a silent majority. a career might be built on these foundations but it's not likely to be an electoral one." how much of the republican party, this is the bottom line question i have, matthew, how much of the party does cheney really represent. >> >> well, if you look at polls after polls after polls over the last year, and i've looked at a lot, including her favorability among republicans and the favorability of people that espouse the sort of pro-democracy side against the big lie, it represents less than 20% of the party. so we've seen this in election after election. we saw it in wyoming yesterday. it wasn't just liz cheney. it was this sort of big lie promoting election-denying secretary of state republican that won the nomination in wyoming on the same day. i think it's a very small segment.

and one thing i would remind liz cheney of on the lincoln thing is the old party had to be completely defeated, the whigs, and decimated before somebody like abraham lincoln could arise in something new. so in my view liz cheney, if she does -- is successful at this has to begin to build something new in this sort of post-republican party. i would also speculate, i know liz cheney, i worked with liz cheney in the 2004 bush-cheney campaign. she is a person who stands on principles and doesn't lose sight of those. she will not do anything that will help elect donald trump president of the united states. so if she considers an independent and be she does the research and finds out that her entrance as an independent would help donald trump and hurt joe biden, she will not do that. so i think her sort of north star right now is how to remove the republicans that are election deniers from this and defeat a possible donald trump candidacy. but she's only got about 20% republicans behind her.

>> beyond cheney the other marquee name on the ballot last night was sarah palin. ali, you said this could take a while to sort out. so where are we this morning? >> doing exactly that. it's going to take a little bit of time to sort out if sarah palin is the person who's going to be heading to congress most imminently, though again, we have to remind people, chris, this is the race that comes back around in november to serve out an all full term in congress. palin made the ballot for that as well last night. but look, last night in alaska was again another example of the country in midterm elections trying to answer this question of what kind of party is this and what's trump's role in it? sarah palin was hoping that the role that trump would play in it is buoying her to victory. senator lisa murkowski, though, the incumbent who had her own primary election last night, was hoping the answer would be quite different. and when i asked her about this larger republican landscape and if she even thinks she fits in it anymore, her answer was really interesting. listen to what she told me.

>> those republican values and principles that i signed on to when i was 18 years old, those are still what i think ground -- are still what i hope ground the republican party. and so i hope that we do not become the party of one person. i hope we do not become the party of donald trump. >> and chris, what i countered with to senator murkowski is the fact it does seem like that is exactly what the republican party is doing. murkowski is one of those rare people in congress where i usually spend my time who will reach across the aisle, who will work in bipartisan fashion, and i think it's striking when we see her election come up in november because she was assured to make the top four that she needed to make to be on the ballot here come november. november is the real judgment day for murkowski. again, she's the only senator who voted to convict donald trump of impeachment charges who's actually facing an election battle in this current cycle. so she's the real litmus test

there for not how it plays in the house, which is of course much more closely hud to the way that the public would vote in terms of the fact it goes district by district as opposed to state by state. murkowski is one we're going to be paying attention to even well after this primary night, chris. >> ali, thank you so muching from beautiful alaska. jonathan, matthew, thank you. steve, appreciate you coming out and being with us today. and a quick reminder, nbc news plan your vote tool is here to help you successfully cast your ballot in the midterm primaries. you can get key information on voting rules where you live. just head to nbcnews.com/planyourvote now. another major political fight that's heating up in wyoming and in fact all over the country, abortion. the fascinating new poll data showing what that could mean in november. and the conservative lawmaker who appears to be having second thoughts. and more legal developments surrounding the former president. important updates on rudy giuliani and mike pence. you're watching "chris jansing reports" live from cheyenne,

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as more and more legal developments rock trump world, rudy giuliani takes center stage today. right now he is appearing before a georgia grand jury investigating 2020 election interference in that state. as giuliani arrived at the courthouse this morning, he found himself locked out. a few months later a guard unlocked the door to let him in.

meantime, former vice president mike pence opening the door to talking to the january 6 committee saying today in new hampshire he would consider testifying if invited. "the new york times" is reporting the fbi has interviewed top trump white house witnesses, including former white house counsel pat cipollone and his deputy. that is according to three sources familiar with the matter. nbc news has not confirmed that report. and as so many different tentacles of law enforcement get closer and closer to trump's inner circle there is this from the "washington post." "former president donald trump and close aides have spent the eight days since the fbi searched his florida home rushing to assemble a team of respected defense lawyers. but the answer they keep hearing is no." to help us break all this down let's bring in nbc's blayne alexander in atlanta and harry litman, former u.s. attorney and former deputy assistant attorney general. blayne, what's the latest at the courthouse? >> reporter: well, chris, we know it's been almost five hours now since rudy giuliani and his

counsel walked into this downtown atlanta courthouse here behind me. so that testimony is still going on. now, of course this is all secret proceeding. this is grand jury testimony. so he's behind closed doors testifying under oath. so we don't know exactly what is happening inside that room, how he's being questioned or perhaps more specifically how he's answering those questions. but before in the days leading up to this his attorney did give some sort of indication as to at least the questions that he would not p answering. he said that giuliani would stay away from any questions about conversations he had with former president trump and that he would claim attorney-client privilege. so that's that. but the other piece of this, the big backdrop that makes all of this something we're watching even more closely, is the fact that he's now been named the target in this investigation. and of course according to a number of legal experts that i've spoken to they say that they would certainly believe that he would plead the fifth on a number of these questions. now, it is important to talk about why he's here, why the d.a. wants to hear from him in the first place. but i spoke with fani willis in

an interview last month. she's made it clear she's conducting a robust investigation. she wants to hear from anybody who had any sort of knowledge about the former president's mindset, his actions, really anything revolving around the 2020 election here in georgia, specifically for rudy giuliani that pertains to a number of statements that he made before some georgia state legislatures. apparently talking about a number of false claims about the state's lerks debunked and unproven conspiracy theories really that we expect him to be questioned on today. >> blayne, thank you so much for that. so lots to talk about, harry, but let's start with rudy giuliani because a former aide was on cnn yesterday and here's how he describes the former mayor. >> he knows he lied to legislators. he knows that he concocted this false electors scheme. you know, he knows he lied for his client. and he knows we all know. it's clear.

rudy flew too close to the sun. he got too close to trump. he got burned. >> so like you rudy is a former federal prosecutor. he knows how law enforcement works, how meticulous these investigations can be. what is he potentially facing here and what do you make of the fact that at least somebody close to him says he's pretty nervous? >> that's some frank new york talk, isn't it? he's facing being indicted for a crime. it's true. they're interested in trump. but when they call him a target, chris, that means they are ready. they've crossed the sort of subjective threshold. they are ready to indict him for his own activities in december 2020 when he went down and gave the sort of greatest hits of fraud. he said your count is false. he talked about the suitcases, the machines, dead people voting, everything, and it was all malarkey. >> and then you've got this late-breaking development from former vice president mike pence who as we all know was in an extremely precarious situation

during the insurrection. he may be ready to talk to the january 6th committee. what would be your first questions for him? >> well, what did trump say here, there, and over at this place? he will not answer them. even thinks answers there were very sort of tiptoey and he'll think about it. so i personally think it won't be that valuable an exchange, maybe a nugget or two. but he's already putting some arm's length requirements and conditions on. we'll see if it happens, and then we'll also see if it's anything at all useful. >> well, let me ask you about those conditions because he said he'd consider testifying if there was an invitation to participate. would there be, then, discussions between pence's and the committee's lawyers? what do those kinds of discussions usually look like? >> polite but then they get increasingly tense. what he also said is i'll have to consider the historic role of

the vice president. what does that mean? he's a witness here with some very valuable testimony to give. and i think that he was vice president except as it gives rise to legal privilege claims really has nothing to do with it. but that's what it will be, is it sort of decorous and befitting his role. and he's a very sort of cautious and even, you know, mealy-mouthed sometimes politician. so that's what it would entail. but of course having him up there saying a few things, that would be informative. >> and his old boss donald trump is apparently having trouble finding qualified lawyers. now, look, if you're an ambitious attorney i think it would be hard to find a more high-profile case that'll get you on tv more. so does it surprise you at all that there are so many lawyers apparently saying thanks but no thanks? >> only because it's not the first time. but yes, wouldn't you think? and you know, he deserves good counsel, but they are -- in droves. and i know what's happening.

anybody who is prominent in a big firm, the partners are going to them and saying don't get anywhere near him because all our other clients and general counsels will scream, it will be terrible for the firm. and so anyone with any prominence who has a future practice is steering clear of him. and of course also it doesn't help that he never pays his bills and winds up trashing whoever his lawyer was. so he's probably the worst client anyone's ever seen, and that feeds into it. but you know, it's remarkable, right? the former president can't get a lawyer. >> harry litman, well said. thank you so much. meantime, a legal and political fight heating up here in wyoming while nationwide the political and personalities implications of new abortion legislation is pushing people to have second thoughts. and they're showing up in polling unexpectedly on the floor of a heavily republican state legislature as well. you're watching "chris jansing

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wyoming. and right now the abortion fight is heating up in this state after a judge ruled that abortions can continue while a lawsuit that challenges the ban is decided. but that's just one of dozens of fights across the country over abortion. one state over in idaho a judge has ruled that a near-total ban can go into effect at the end of the month. the court battles have ignited a very different fight, one for women voters. and a new fox news poll has some fascinating numbers. look at the shift away from the republican party and toward democrats. women up seven points. white women eight. non-white women 10. suburban women up 9. and the same poll shows that men are up 4 points. dads are seeing a 28-point shift that could reflect the power of moms and daughters, maybe talking to their fathers and husbands. all of this is likely why we're seeing the airwaves fill up with democratic ads that target republicans for their anti-abortion positions across

house, senate, and governor's races. i want to bring in jasmine hall, a reporter for the "wyoming tribune eagle" and politico's megan messerly, who covers health care for this site. this is a big legal question, but it turns into a political one when it impacts the way people think about how they're going to vote. you've been talking to some of the people that this will impact directly. tell me what they're telling you. >> yeah. so it's been an interesting conversation. i'm lucky to be one of the reporters covering it. there's been a lot of other people involved in this. but after talking with local attorneys as well as health care providers, there's a great concern for the language that's included in this law because at the moment the only exceptions would be in cases of sexual assault or incest. and if there's a dire medical circumstance. but there's no language that describes that medical circumstance or what might happen between a doctor and a

patient when they're making that decision. there's a lot of doctors who are nervous that if they give care such as, you know, providing medication to pass a miscarriage or even discussing treatment for an ectopic pregnancy they might be at risk forever a lawsuit. and in other cases where the baby can't be carried to term, they might die outside of the womb, doctors have no ability to treat that at the moment. they have to send their patients down to colorado. but it's an interesting conversation just because in wyoming before this law went into effect there was only one clinic that was giving medical abortions to women and other people who were in need. and it was medication. there have been no surgical abortions in this state. and they have continued to send those women down to colorado, to other states, which puts pressure on colorado. i know that governor polis, he actually made it so that will be

no investigations -- or cooperation with investigations -- >> that might come out of here. >> yeah, for women who might travel. and here in southeastern wyoming that's a big conversation. we're only 45 minutes from fort collins. we're 15 minutes from the border. it's not hard to get down there. but it does cost women a lot in terms of resources. what kind of money do you have? what kind of travel accommodations can you make? and people are really having to look at that in the future. but at the moment there has been a preliminary injunction granted. and so that choice won't have to be made at the moment. >> at least for the moment. but that leads me exactly to what's happening in south carolina. and there is a republican state representative. his name is neil collins. he actually broke down yesterday while telling the story of a 19-year-old woman. he was told by a doctor that the woman's water broke at 15 weeks and that her fetus was unviable but had a heartbeat.

because of the state's new heartbeat bill, attorneys advised doctors they could not extract the fetus. they sent her home. the doctor told him there was a 50% chance that teenager could lose her uterus, a 10% chance she could get sepsis and die. let me play what collins said to his fellow lawmakers. >> that weighs on me. i voted for that bill. these are affecting people. and we're having a meeting about this. it took -- that whole week i did not sleep. what we do matters. >> thank you, representative collins. >> one second, mr. chairman. i'm almost finished. >> megan, the doctor did tell him that the woman survived. but this republican lawmaker is from pickens county, south carolina, where trump received the highest percentage of votes in 2020.

and i think when you put that together with what's happening here, the reddest state in the nation, is the heart of the debate in many ways what we're seeing now? where is that line? how specifically do we need to draw it and at what point do you take medical decisions away from a doctor? >> exactly. i think that's really what we're seeing, especially republican lawmakers at the state level, grapple with. i mean, before roe was overturned, not that it was easy to be pro life, but i've had some republican lawmakers say that -- you know, who describe themselves as pro life say it was a pretty easy position to take. you didn't have to deal with these thorny questions over how many weeks, do you want exceptions or not, what does it mean to protect the life of the pregnant person, to protect the pregnant person's health, how do you allow aborkss in cases of lethal fetal anomaly where there's no chance the fetus is going to survive? so i've had a lot of republican

lawmakers tell me that being quote unquote pro life in a post-roe era is very hard and filled with nuance. i'm talking to these folks. like that example you mentioned from south carolina yesterday. there's a lot of republican lawmakers in south carolina that i've been talking to who sort of acknowledge and recognize that even though they in general are opposed to abortion and want to limit access to abortion as much as possible that there are these cases where it's not so black and white and they're really thinking through how do we craft the laws in such a way that we're banning the abortions that we're trying to ban without banning other procedures that we're not? i just think they're finding it's a lot more complicated than perhaps any of them had anticipated before roe was actually overturned. >> we saw the political impact of this in kansas. and i want to go back to those fox news numbers. the swing toward the democratic party. those dad numbers alone stand out. what are you seeing in terms of democrats seizing this moment?

and maybe the bigger question, can they sustain it until november? >> yeah. that's the million-dollar question. i mean, democrats are extremely eager to talk about abortion and reproductive health care. you know, they know obviously like those polling numbers you mentioned, this is a winning issue for them, or they believe it to be a winning issue with voters, especially when they're dealing with the economy, inflation. they would much rather be talking about abortion. all this comes back to the question of are voters willing to cast their ballot on abortion? is that going to be the deciding issue? interestingly enough, talking to some republicans, they've expressed concern to me. republican state lawmakers. who have said we're worried that we're going to lose some of these quote unquote republican suburban women who are a little bit more moderate, that they're going to lose those voters to democrats. the question is of course where this makes a difference. and obviously where we're looking to is the gubernatorial

races. you know, whether you lose those republican moderate suburban women could make a difference in some of these really close races. i'm thinking pennsylvania. i'm thinking nevada. states where the future of reproductive health care really depends on the balance of power in the state between the governor and the state legislature. >> megan messerly, jazz mirn hall, i know you were out late last flight. we were both covering the election. so thank you for coming over to see us. a tidal wave of pandemic fraud. so many cases, so many agencies involved in finding out who took government money illegally that prosecutors are drowning trying to keep up. the author of that stunning report joins me next.

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caseload. this investigation involves 500 people and 21 inspectors general. that includes investigators from the fbi, the secret service, the postal inspection services and the irs. 1500 people have already been charged in fraud cases, with 450 convictions so far. and agents are sorting through 2 million potentially fraudulent aid applications. joining me now, the author of that article, david fahrenthold, a "new york times" reporter and an nbc news contributor. david, this is mind-boggling. you describe it as one of the largest frauds in american history, with billions of dollars stolen by thousands of people including at least one amateur who boasted of his criminal activity on youtube. tell us more. >> yeah. the scale of this is sort of hard to imagine. so during the pandemic there were three really large programs. expanded unemployment aid and two big loan programs from the small business administration that were supposed to help struggling businesses that

basically had a huge loophole. the same loophole in all of them. which is that they were built on the honor system. there were key elements to that to qualify people just had to swear that they're eligible. and obviously there's a lot of people out there who are willing to swear to things that are false. as a result thousands and thousands of people stole like we said billions and billions of dollars. and it's just the scale of that is so big that even for the giant federal law enforcement apparatus it's almost too much to chase. it's almost too many leads. almost too many tips. and they're even now struggling to catch up to all the leads that are out there. >> well, earlier this month president biden signed bills extending the statute of limitations for some pandemic-related fraud to ten years from five, maybe for exactly that reason, david. and he had a warning to those committing fraud. take a listen. >> my message to those cheats out there is this. you can't hide. we're going to find you. we're going to make you pay back what you stole and hold you accountable under the law.

>> i mean, are we looking at potentially a decade-long investigation? are they kind of prioritizing them, i don't know, based on how much money they believe a person took? >> yes. the first part of what biden said is true. you can't hide. the investigators i talked to said the trail of evidence in this case is footsteps left in concrete. you lied on a government document, the government still has that document. it's really hard to get out of this once they catch you. the problem is the second part of biden's statement which was we're going to catch you, we're going to track you down. even with ten years, with that incredibly long time horizon, i don't think that's going to turn out to be true. in fact, when we talked to some of these investigators they said yes, we're prioritizing the biggest cases, the ones where there were ring leaders organizing a bunch of other people, habitual criminals committing these cases. and there are a lot of cases including one very common fraud was people who took advantage of an advance grant program from the small business administration where they got

$10,000 they didn't have to pay back. if they got that they may never see the feds at their door because it costs so much to investigate those crimes. >> david fahrenthold, it was an eye-opening article. i recommend it to people. thank you so much for being on the program. new water restrictions on the way for drought-stricken states like arizona, nevada. right here in wyoming as well. what those restrictions look like and what the newly signed climate and health law will do about it. that's ahead. you're watching a special edition of "chris jansing reports" live from cheyenne.

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generates through the hoover dam but it is now reaching a critical point. >> we just kept spending out of the bank account and saying this is great, we can keep spending, but we never rebuilt the bank account. we never rebuilt the balance. and now there's no alternative but to call for very large cuts and reductions because there's no more money in the bank account. >> jack schmidt says the basin states haven't come to an agreement on their own while they've reached new levels, triggering federally mandated cuts. >> some are saying it's an important problem and those other guys need to fix it and stop spending. and other states are saying we were willing to cut more but we'll be damned if we're going

to cut more if no one else is going to cut at all. >> everybody has to tighten their belts in this situation. >> the new cuts will force nevada to cut back by 8%. it impact hitting state farmers already working with less water. >> they're trying to do what they can to produce, still have production, stay in operation to meet consumer demand. >> that was cnbc's valerie castro. president biden's signing of that massive climate and health care package is about as timely as you can get. it includes $4 billion in drought relief for the river and its reservoir. before we go, there's business we have to tend to, monkey business. it all began with a mysterious call from an unlikely location, the zoo. the sheriff this root was having

an uneventful friday night when she decided to money around. she must have picked up the zoo's cell phone and just so happened to dial 911. most likely a banana emergency. hey, they were told that monkeys like root are very inquisitive and will grab anything and everything and start pushing buttons. they say you can't really dame -- blame her at the end of the day, monkey see, monkey do. i'll say that does it for us this hour. thanks thank you for joining us for this edition of "chris jansing reports." join us every weekday at 1:00 eastern time every weekday. "katy tur reports" starts next. can. sprays take hours.

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. good to be with you. i'm katy tur. last night's primary showed once again the sheer power of a lie, especially when that lie is coupled with ambition. and primaries in both alaska and wyoming, election deniers advanced the general election. republicans in nurturing donald trump's unfounded grievances about 2020 advanced their own careers. lisa murkowski and liz chain he denied that call but while the