. good to be with you. i'm katy tur. last night's primary showed once again the sheer power of a lie, especially when that lie is coupled with ambition. and primaries in both alaska and wyoming, election deniers advanced the general election. republicans in nurturing donald trump's unfounded grievances about 2020 advanced their own careers. lisa murkowski and liz chain he denied that call but while the

rules helped murkowski survived, at least for now liz cheney never had a chance and she knew it. >> two years ago i won this primary with 73% of the vote. i could easily have done the same again. the path was clear. but it would have required that i go along with president trump's lie about the 2020 election. it would have required that i enable his ongoing efforts to unravel our democratic system and attack the foundations of our republic. that was a path i could not and would not take. [ cheers and applause ] against the backdrop of the teton mountains at sunset, cheney, whose father served five terms, gave her concession speech to just 150 people, an invite-only event where i.d.s were checked before entering. i think can you guess why.

her father sitting off to the right of the stage watched as his daughter ended the family dynasty. >> let as resolve that we will stand together, republicans, democrats and independents against those who would destroy our republic. they are angry and they are determined but they have not seen anything like the power of americans united in defense of our constitution and committed to the cause of freedom. there is no greater power on this earth, and with god's help, we will prevail. >> so where does liz cheney go from here and what does it mean for donald trump? here she was on "today," this morning with savannah guthrie. >> there's no political office that's more important than the principles that we take an oath to defend, and i believe that

donald trump continues to pose a very grave threat and risk to our republic and i think that defeating him is going to require a broad and united front of republicans, democrats and independents and that's what i intend to be part of. >> are you thinking about running for president? >> that's a decision that i'm going to make in the coming months, savannah. i'm not going to make any announcements here this morning. but it is something i'm thinking about and i'll make a decision in the coming months. >> no big announcements but a big money move. vaughn hillyard transferred all of her campaign cash to a new leadership pact called the great task. he said she should be -- donald

trump wrote she should be ashamed of herself and can finally disappear into the depths of political oblivion." joining me, vaughn hillyard and what does it mean to have all that cash moved? >> liz cheney and her allies set up this leadership pact and they are transferring the campaign dollars into this leadership pact, which gives her the

flexibility to spend this money, going and the country for her own political purposes. she could use that money on other candidates running for political candidates or use it for her travel, for airfare. most members of congress have these leadership pacts that they use, even mike pence when he was vice president. donald trump set up a pact and now that she lost this primary last night, she no longer has a campaign to lift her up and give her the ability to do so. >> so on the one hand, cheney was at her concession speech saying that she's trying to protect and preserve democracy. what did harriet hageman, the winner of that primary say at her victory speech? >> liz cheney is looking for her own potential 2024 presidential run. wyoming will likely have a new congresswoman and that is harriet hageman, who was lifted up because of the donald trump

endorsement, campaigned along the former president here and last night in her victory speech, there was tones of populism, the idea that she was fighting for the people of wyoming. when you look at what's going to be ultimately probably about a 38 percentage point win here, these are the undertones of i am here to represent you and the people. of course the irony of that is that she has propagated that this was a rigged 2020 election and that donald trump should be in office. this is the message we've heard from the former president himself as he has traversed this country campaigning on behalf of candidates who have echoed to a broader part of the republican electorate that the wrong person is in the white house. so harriet hageman is going to be a stark contrast to liz cheney, who is going to continue over these next couple months to helm the january 6 select committee and as she said this morning she's going to continue to bring forward everything that she and the committee to do in

these final months before she ultimately exits office. >> more dissonance itself since hageman used to be a very big anti-trumper before she started seeing her political prospects elevated by advancing those lies. jake sherman, what does the house look like? what does the republican party look like in congress without liz cheney and with all of these election deniers who are currently winning these primaries? and does denying that the election was free and fair elevating these candidates make it more or less likely for republicans to retake the house in november? >> kevin mccarthy is awakened or becoming alert to the fact that he is the leader of the conference of his making that is fully, 100% loyal to donald trump, to many of whom are loyal to the fact that the president -- believed the fact, the lie rather, that the

president -- that joe biden is not the president, that donald trump is the rightful president. that's something mccarthy is going to have to contend with. he no longer has this middle road of the house republican conference, a bloc of 15 to 20 votes that he can rely on to bring things back to normalcy. that can be a problem in governing as people tried to impeach joe biden and do all sorts of crazy things come next year. that's number one. number two, you asked the most important question, katy, of the moment, which is elevating these candidates who believe these whacky theories, these whacky conspiracy theories about satellite stealing elections, does that impact them winning house majority? history would tell us no, history would tell us they should win the majority, especially with the slim margins that nancy pelosi has going into the 2020 mid terms but we're in

somewhat unchartered territory here in that the politics that we are currently living in has no historical parallel. so we don't know whether voters on a national scale will be turned off by this lunacy. that's number one. i just want to add one other point we've seen in the last couple of weeks. we've seen the generic ballot, the test of a generic republican versus a generic democrat. it means the national mood is shifting. it doesn't mean by a district-by-district basis the races republicans need to win are shifting. most would give the odds to the gop but i think the bigger fact is how this impacts governing. if republicans take the majority, it's going to be a tumultuous 2023 and 2024. >> big news from former vice president pence today saying he,

"if there was an invitation to participate, i would consider it" but added, "it is unprecedented in history for a vice president to be summoned to testify on capitol hill." are we going to hear from vice president pence? what's the panel saying about him? >> katy, this is like throwing up a bunch of glow sticks during a fish concert. you know what's going on, you know what's happening. you see the writing on the wall. he's telling the january 6th committee to ask him to testify. they've going to take this as an open invitation. i can't imagine they won't take him up on this. i can't imagine they would have him in front of a live audience. i have to guess they'd put him behind closed doors. i'm sure they'd want him in front of a live audience but i imagine he would prefer the closed doors. with just three months left until election day, you have to guess that mike pence is going to be summoned by this january 6th committee. >> i wish it was all as fun as throwing a bunch of glow sticks

at a fish concert. alas it is not. joining me is mark leiobovich. now that you've seen it, what did she say. >> i could not have been more accurate of what her concession was going to be, which was going to be forward looking. she was going to very cursory concede, say congratulations to her opponent and spring right into the future, concentrate mostly on donald trump. not only did she focus on january 6th, the constitution, she went pretty specifically into the fbi. she went to things that are broader about the sort of recent bent of the republican party. look, one thing she said to people and she said to me last

week in wyoming is that the republican party is sick and i think electorate she is trying to win over and she's going to fix that. >> are there republicans that are looking for an antidote, someone like liz cheney. if she does run for president, does she have an electorate out there? is it big enough or is it big enough to make an impact on donald trump? >> certainly not in wyoming. there are more swingy states like new hampshire that have crossover voters where you could conceivably get a more fair reading about what kind of path americans want, or independents and republicans want, maybe a more moderate electorate than that. this is an uphill fight. i don't think it's going to end up with liz cheney in the white

house. >> show me or tell me what it looks like. what does she do that would make it so hard for them? >> i think it looks like obstructionism. i think they will do everything they can to make it not happen. liz cheney is extremely good on her feet. she's completely in command of her facts. she understands history. she is on to donald trump with a level of encyclopedic knowledge and disdain that no one can match. i don't think donald trump wants to be next to her. >> the republicans in 2016 tried to hit him with everything and they had a real level of disdain tore him and thought they had his number. chris christie was one of those people, john kasich, rubio, all of them thought they understood what donald trump, which at the time they thought was a joke before they decided to be loyal to him now because of their political prospects. how does liz cheney avoid becoming a john kasich?

>> they all held their fire until the very end. >> they tried to ignore him for a while. >> ted cruz wanted to be like the trump friend. they were well behind until they tried at that. two, liz cheney would just be one. they were all together. there was a big and crowded stage. and, three, donald trump has an extremely, shall we say, involved record at this point that, again, liz cheney is steeped in, she's appalled by and she speaks for a lot of people who have watched all this. >> the "new york times" had a poll a month ago, i've cited it a lot, that said republicans in the party, the voters, were looking for something different, half of them looking for someone different in 2024. the search of mar-a-lago, what we've seen in these primaries, does that change those numbers in your estimation or is there still a lot of -- you wrote about this in your awesome book, the fatigue that some feel toward donald trump? >> absolutely. i think the fatigue factor. everything time there is something that people circle the

wagons for, it adds to the fatigue factor. it might not be detectable in a day-to-day polling environment. ultimately it takes a toll. anyone who has been around as long as donald trump has been on the political scene, it's an exhausting experience. probably dog years in his case. i think that it absolutely takes a toll and opens the door. >> what about what jake was talking about, the issue of governing. if a lot of election deniers do get elected to congress when there are general elections, what do you think it looks like? you've covered washington for while a while now. >> i don't envy ken mccarthy. >> didn't he make his own bed? >> yes, he absolutely made his own bed. i don't pity kevin mccarthy but i don't envy him either. i don't think this is necessarily a path to victory in november. i don't think these kinds of candidates help. i think they'll probably still win but kevin mccarthy has no

handle on this. he's just hoping he'll be able to get over the line and have a speaker's job title and dine out on it for the rest of his life no matter how ugly it gets. >> what about what cheney said that it's likely to take several election cycles to fix the problems, the brokenness of the gop? how do you survive through the next several election cycles if you're somebody who sees things clearly? >> yeah, she might not. i will say she is playing a much longer game than someone whose career ended last night. there is no question she's going to maximize the end of her term, certainly through the january 6th committee and also, you know, i think she can get some real traction in the presidential campaign. probably not something she could win but is certainly i think shaping up as one of the most fascinating figures. >> would she run again in wyoming or somewhere else? >> i doubt it. i don't think she'll run anywhere. she's done everything she can in congress, made a huge name for

herself. i guarantee we'll be talking about her or our kids will talking about her far more in 20 years than harriet hagarman or stefanic or whoever else. >> you look rested. you're through the majority of your book tour and you're starting to see the world again. >> i'll see you at the fish concert. actually, you'll never see me at the fish concert. >> get his book, "thank you for your servitude", it's great. too immature to get an abortion but not too immature to become a parent. the florida ruling that is blocking an orphan from ending her pregnancy. >> and we'll go to georgia where rudy giuliani appeared for an investigation on election interference. >> and new water rules for two

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a pregnant and parentless 16-year-old in florida may be forced to give birth as an appeals court ruled she was not mature enough to end her pregnancy. in normal circumstances the teen could get an abortion so long as

her parents signed off but according to court documents doesn't have parent and has a state-appointed garden. the teen filed her competition by hand and has a relative's permission, that she is still in school, has no job and no help from the father. she researched her options, chose to represent herself in court and she says she is not ready to have a baby. the judge overseeing her case said she was not convinced the teen had demonstrated the maturity to choose to get an abortion. on monday two-thirds of a florida appellate court agreed. i think on the face of this, you have to wonder how can you be too immature to have an abortion but not too immature to have a child? >> well, that's the quandary for all forced parental involvement

laws where that if maturity is going to be the determining factor, the result of being found too immature to make a decision about your own health care necessarily means you're going to have to have to have a child. and whether it seems like if you're too immature to make an decision, then you're probably too immature to take care of a baby. >> so i want to look at what the judge said on this, the appellate judge said on this. he wrote "the trial judge denied the petition but explicitly left open the availability of further proceedings by saying that the court finds the minor may be able at a later day to adequately articulate her request and the court may reevaluate her decision at that time." when they say "adequately articulate her request," is it because she didn't have a lawyer

representing her? >> it seems good counsel may have been helpful to her and may have been able to press upon the court the second ground for bypass, which is getting consent or providing notification to a parent was not in her best interest. it seems she doesn't have a parent who able to consent and comply and sign the consent paperwork for her so she needed a bypass. >> in the aftermath of the overturning of roe v. wade a lot of the circumstances that seemed extreme were written off as exception and weren't really real. what is your take, your knowledge, your expertise on what sort of decisions are out there and what the legal consequences of overturning roe v. wade means in general for women across this country. >> well, the consequences are very real. we're seeing cases all across the country which physicians are

trying to determine exactly the extent of any exception in new criminal laws that are making a felony to provide their patients health care. and i would say accurate depiction and warnings from the abortion access movement are spot on. and those were hand waved away by lots of folks and we're seeing the dire consequences of that lack of real accurate information about pregnancy and abortion care in this country. >> blake, i know since you're the director of roe-cap, have you reached out to her and give her advice on what she can do next? obviously time is of the essence here. >> i have not. i'm not familiar with her case. but if i were giving her advice, i would say she should look really closely at the florida

law and whether her guardian can provide the consent she needs and that she should find some counsel and file again and ask the court to say not only is she mature enough but also it's in her best interest not to involve a parent because that's an impossibility. i think the court also has made a mistake here by misunderstanding the bypass process. it's not saying that the applicant's decision is correct or she has to maintain that decision, but only that she has the right to make the decision herself. so the court could have granted her the ability to make her own decision and then she still could have decided to continue the pregnancy. nothing the court does forces one outcome one way or another. >> blake, rocap, thank you so

much for being with us. and the new climate report warns of the devastation that would hit california when the big one, you've heard it before, the big one finally comes. but interestingly the report is not talking about earthquakes or an earthquake. >> and the latest from atlanta where rudy giuliani just testified before a grand jury in the state's election interference investigation. what he might be saying. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪

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♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ rudy giuliani is in georgia today behind closed doors and under oath as he testifies before a special grand jury. earlier this week he was named as a target in fulton county's criminal probe into efforts to overturn the 2020 election. donald trump's former personal attorney arrived at the courthouse this morning after a failed attempt to push off today's appearance. joining me now from outside of the courthouse in fulton county is blaine alexander and joining me also is gwen keyes fleming and she co-wrote a brookings institution report.

yesterday you sent a note around saying he probably would be ushered in underground from a parking garage, that we wouldn't see rudy giuliani, but he chose to take the steps and the front door. did he say anything to reporters? >> i think that is probably so far one of the most interesting parts about this entire day, katy, the fact that up to this point there have been a number of witnesses that have come forward and spoken before the special grand jury. for the most part, many of them have entered and exited the building away from cameras. that was a very different approach than what rudy giuliani took. he chose the most public entrance where he literally walks up courthouse steps and past a throng of cameras and into the courthouse. he was questioned a number of different ways and said i'm going to wait for the grand jury to finish up before i say anything. he really didn't say enough. but this has been a rather lengthy time he has been inside of this courthouse. he walked in about six hours

ago. so while these are secret proceedings and we have no way of knowing what's happening inside, we can do whatever tea leaf reading we want to do and it lets us now there probably is some sort of back and forth going on between rudy giuliani and those questioning him. we do know his attorney already laid the foundation essentially saying he's likely going to shy away from addressing any sort of conversations that he had with the former president, saying that he was likely going to claim attorney/client privilege, but as for the meat of what he's going to be questioned on back in 2020 pedaling conspiracy theories, the very interest there is how he would answer those questions, katy. >> i am glad to know you also thought it was interesting that he chose the front entrance, the public entrance. interesting that he wanted to get all the cameras trained on him, even though he didn't say anything. inside that courthouse, inside the grand jury right now, what do you anticipate he's being

asked? >> i think he's being asked about a host of things. first of all, any communications with the former president, understanding he may try and claim the attorney/client privilege. there is an exception to discussions about advancing or covering up a crime, called the crime fraud exception. there may be a way that the district attorney and her team can get some of that information. also, he probably is answering questions about his testimony before the georgia house and the georgia senate where he, again, advanced several theories about fraud in the 2020 election, which we all know now are untrue. so these are some of the things that could possibly subject him to various crimes in georgia, including making false statements to government officials and depending on how broadly the d.a. makes her investigation or makes her case,

if there's such evidence, possibly bringing rico charges in terms of this pattern of activity that he may have been tied to depending on her evidence. >> what about the claims he made, the allegations he made against those two georgia election workers, the ones that testified in front of the january 6th panel where he said they were passing things to each other and they were responsible for rigging the election when in reality they were just passing a ginger mint to each other and now they say that their lives have been ruined, a mother and daughter. can he face any consequences for that? are there any legal statutes there? >> i think that's where we'll see possible civil charges. i don't know that that type of activity, as bothersome as it was, would be captured by the d.a.'s investigation into a criminal case. >> what about donald trump? do you think that he's somebody of interest right now considering that rudy giuliani was his personal attorney and doing his biddy?

>> i think the d.a. has made it very clear that the former president's actions are the main thing that she is looking at. so she has been very deliberate, very specific in who she's bringing before the grand jury to be able to establish various connections to the former president and to his actions. so, again, she's put it on folks' radar screens back early in february within a month of her taking office, that she was investigating the former president and his colleagues and we're now starting to see that with each and every witness that comes before the special grand jury. >> gwen and blaine, thank you for being with us. you would be forgiven if you missed president biden sink the inflation reduction act into

law. it is the first major climate bill ever in this country and the first time that medicare will be allowed to negotiate drug prices for millions of americans. but with the flood of news around donald trump, is the white house getting all of the attention it wants? as a new piece from the "new york times" puts it, no other sitting president has ever lived with the shadow of his defeated predecessor in quite the way that mr. biden has. joining me now, the word who wrote those words, peter baker, chief white house correspondent at the "new york times" and an msnbc political analyst. i imagine it's a double-edged sword here. on the one hand you want to tout the victories and tell americans look what i'm doing for you but on the other hand, part of the reason that joe biden won was this fatigue surrounding donald trump. so it's got to be benefiting him, i imagine, as well in some respects. >> yeah, i think that's right. it's frustrating in the white house to have the kind of weeks they have had in the last few

weeks where they have rolled out a number of big legislative victories, they've had a good few weeks after a lot of very unpleasant months, a lot of bad months. yet despite all that, a lot of attention is still on his predecessor. no other sitting president has ever had quite the same shadow over him. other previous presidents have sought to come back but they didn't have the sort of dominating presence that this one has. now, it's not necessarily something to be jealous off. as you rightly point out, the coverage, attention being paid donald trump are about an fbi search for his home for documents he wasn't supposed to have and his main lawyer from the presidential election as you just showed being called before the grand jury as a target about the former president himself pleading the fifth 400 times in a new york investigation. it's not something biden would be jealous of.

he's happy to let the former guy have, as he says, but it is frustrating they feel they have a harder time penetrating the media ecosphere. so this is partially frustrating for members of the press because obviously they'd like to have more sitdowns with the current president, excuse me, they'd like to see him more in the press briefing room. we did see a lot more of donald trump. he took a lot more questions from reporters on a daily basis. does the white house think it's a good idea to put biden out

there? >> no, i think that they think a limited dose is the right one for him. we can argue about why that is. some people will say if is because he has slowed down, he is age 79, about to be 80 and there's some speculation has to whether or not they think it's a good idea to put him out given that. but i think they're also focused on the idea of a more normal white house and that he doesn't have to be out there 24/7 the way trump does, that the public doesn't want him to be that way. they want him to deliver on his promises, but they argue what he's been doing the last few weeks and that that will stand as a contrast to president trump that they're happy to make. the argument they're going to take into the fall, even with the headwinds against them, is that they're delivering on promises while republicans are consumed with this fight over their former president, his efforts to basically overturn the democratic election. >> peter baker of the "new york

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that's why we build technology that makes it possible for every business... and every person... to come to the table and do more incredible things. ♪ ♪ the inflation reduction act that just became law dedicates $369 billion to federal action on climate change, as an ever growing body of research keeps telling us our planet is dying. we're warned of a month-long mega storm in california. it could dump nearly 16 inches of rain and snow on the state and affect every single industry

from agriculture to tech and film. joining me is michael mann, a presidential distinguished director and director of the penn center for science at the university of pennsylvania. he's also the author of "the new climate war." michael, it's really good to see you. it's been a while unfortunately for us. talk to me about this new study, this month-long superstorm that could hit california. some people are saying we've been in a drought, we could use the water but this isn't exactly that. >> hi, katy. it's good to be with you. this latest study is just a reminder that we are starting to see an array of consequences when it comes to the climate crisis. in many cases, the water droughts that they're suffering, sometimes there's too little water and sometimes too much. we see extremes at both ends of the scale with the warming of the planet.

and so while we are likely to see drier summers in the western u.s. and elsewhere in the subtropics of the world, when the rains do come in california and other regions, when those winter storms come, they bring with them more moisture. the planet is warmer, the oceans are warmer, they put more moisture into the atmosphere so those storms have more moisture in them, moisture that's available to turn into flooding rains along the california coast and huge snowfalls further inland and further north. similar in the east. we expense to see more intense nor'easter, these winter storms that bring huge snowfalls to cities like washington, d.c., boston, and philadelphia where i now live. we're seeing extremes at both

end of the scale. >> the road would become extraordinarily slippery. there would be mudslides, the l.a. river would start overflowing and become more of a raging river as opposed to the dry little stream that it mostly is right now. the infrastructure of california, if they were to get something like a month-long superstorm and all of that rain and the "new york times" has a predictor, some visual aides on what it would look like, how does the infrastructure hold up to, this the dams, the levees, et cetera? >> it's a real threat. especially during el nino years, in '98 i was at a conference and it was one of the wettest winter they had seen in northern california, in part because of el nino where it moves the jet

streams into california one after the next. that's a very rare event. we've seen that happen in extreme years. what this study is showing these sorts of events could become common place. those trains of storm after storm sometimes called the pineapple express, all of this moise air from the south coming into california, coming into the west coast in the form of these incessant cyclones, we've seen one of the threats of climate change now impacting california and other regions where those dry summers, those hot summers, you get the wildfires, the vegetation gets destroyed and that destabilizes the top soil. so when those flooding winter rains do come, you get the catastrophic mud slides. >> i remember that 1998 storm season. my entire soccer season was spent splaying in the rain.

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qualified. the bottom line is, if things go well with this launch, again, we're less than two weeks away from this uncrewed launch and they want to test this vehicle and make sure it's safe for humans, if it is, we could see people on the moon, americans back on the moon, including a woman and a person of color, within three to five years. now at launch pad 39-b at the kennedy space center the most powerful rocket nasa has ever built, the artemis rocket, named after the greek god's twin sister of apollo, preparing for nasa's first human mission to the moon, since apollo 17 in 1972. >> we're going to mars and we're going back to the moon in order to learn to live, to work, to survive, how do you keep humans alive in those hostile conditions? >> reporter: but first, this critical test flight set for august 29th. the artemis rocket will carry

the orion crew capsule speeding at 17,000 miles per hour, to a 42-day mission to orbit the moon. if the test flight goes well, humans could be on a lunar orbit flight within two years. then, a moon landing in 2025 or '26. and a lot has changed in the 50 years since humans were last there. it may look just like the old apollo space capsule, but orion is bigger. instead of carrying three astronauts orion carries four with a big upgrade, there's room for a toilet. that matters when you are spending days in cramped quarters. eventually orion will dock with a new space station that will orbit the moon. astronauts will then descend to the lunar surface in a newly designed lunar lander. >> we're going to send a diverse crew. we're going to have the first woman and first person of color and international astronaut, so a much more diverse population, reflective of how we are today. >> reporter: and virtually every astronaut is hoping they're

chosen to go. captain glover spent 168 days on the space station. >> i wanted to walk on and work on the surface of the moon. all astronauts want to do the mission and now that going to the moon is becoming a part of the mission set, i think we're all really excited that's a reality. >> reporter: eventually just like apollo, orion will parachute back to earth, landing off san diego, in the pacific ocean. pretty cool stuff. again, no humans on board. four test dummy, high-tech test dummies will be on board to make sure nasa understand the impact on any future astronaut. >> even if i was qualified, tom, i would got. i'm too scared. >> come on. >> my husband would go. i would not go. tom costello, thanks so much. thanks for bringing us that story. that's going to do it for me today. hallie jackson picks up our coverage next. ♪ ♪

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giuliani in court, under oath, testifying in front of that grand jury in a georgia investigation where, by the way, he's a target. we're live in atlanta on that. and on the other person also ordered to testify, here's a hint, it's somebody else with one degree of separation from donald trump. also this hour the final stretch before the blockbuster thursday hearing in florida. a judge set to decide if the remaining secret search documents for that mar-a-lago search should become not secret. with new reporting today on the legal powerhouse the former president is trying and failing to put together. plus, the blockbuster mea culpa from the cdc, the overall proposed today after what the agency's own director said was a botched response to the covid pandemic. i'm hallie jackson wait lot to get to here in washington. good to be with you. we're joined by former federal and state prosecutor and msnbc legal analyst tolly ferheyi weinstein. talk about this rudy giuliani court appearance and your expectations from what he might be saying to