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coup-plotting and pathologically duplicitous ex-president to subvert american democrat see and the process of given the persistent power of donald j. trump in the republican party and the depoched and decrepit party, will end the way it did with wyoming congresswoman liz cheney losing in a landslide. cheney's unforgivable sin in the ice of maga voters and a bunch of other republican voters, too, along with team trump cultivated and blessed the candidate who defeated her when it came to her conviction that trump is nothing more than an existential threat to our republic and cheney acknowledged as much. >> years ago i won this primary with 37% of the vote. i could easily have done the same again. the path was clear.7% of the vo. i could easily have done the same again. the path was clear.3% of the vo. i could easily have done the

same again. the path was clear. but it would have required they go along with the lie of the 2720 election, that i would unravel our democratic system and attack the foundations of our republic. that was a path i could not and would not take. >> cheney's opponent, harriet hageman with the collective downward spirala reported in "the new york times," ms. hageman is a former close ally of ms. cheney. she introduced her as a courageous, constitutional conservative that year. ms. hageman also called mr. trump racist and xenophobic, by 2020, ms. hageman openly supported mr. trump and she grew bolder in embracing the claims that he was robbed of re-election. absolutely the election was rigged she said in kasper,

wyoming and ruby red wyoming and take cheney's seat. for her part liz cheney has no intention of going away quietly. she vowed to press on as vice chair of the january 6th select committee with the question on the minds of everyone in the political world, given the way she behaved last night is what the future might hold for a woman who in less than three terms has transformed herself into not just a leading never trump voice, but also a genuine national figure. here's what cheney had to say about what might lie ahead for her on the "today" show this morning. i'll make sure that people all around the country understand the stakes of what we're facing and understand the extent to which we've now got one major political party, my party which has become a cult of personality and we've got to get this party back to a place where we're embracing the values and the principles on which it was founded and in talking, you

know, about the fundamentals issues of civics and fundamentals issues of what it means to be a constitutional republic. >> are you thinking about running for president? >> that's a decision that i'm going to make in the coming months, savannah. >> not even remotely answering that question, but answering it all the same. joining us is republican strategist mike murphy in the lake winnipesaukee and the author of the tremendous new york times best-selling book "the big lie" and rick wilson, former gop strategist and co-founder of the lincoln project and the only one of the people i really wanted to see and msnbc political contributor. mike, because you're away i'll start with you and the same thing when i was talking to rick and all of your, you know, you

political consultants. you agree that liz cheney went down for principle, if you agree with that, how often have you seen that in your career? a candidate who was willing to lose their seat, lose their job over a matter of conviction? >> -- hey, mike, you're muted. on whatever device you're using. there's nothing worse than watching you pantomime, mike. >> there we go! >> it's like reverse karaoke or something. go ahead. >> hear me now. no, no, there have been a ton of them and it's a very thin book of history of courageous folks who stood up. we're seeing a bumper crop right now because we had a bunch of members who voted for impeachment who were forced to retire like fred upton and pete meyer, so it's rare and she is a hero.

>> you said, you tweeted out, mike, a gloomy day. i knew liz cheney would lose and not tight, but not this big ugh. what conclusions do you draw from that this really was a landslide? >> i think two things were working, and i think the main one was if you are in a cheneyesque position where you voted for impeachment in the alleged january 6th and you're a party enemy now in the crazy gop we have, but what also happened is the cheney people made a strategic calculation and i'm not going to criticize it which is play the national politics and they pull out of wyoming and they didn't run ad attacking hageman, but they didn't think they could win so they moved their battle and they'll keep it national, and i think that probably widened the problem. i talked to folks from wyoming who told me yes, she wasn't here and even the people were

insulted by the lack of campaign. wouldn't have changed the outcome and they knew that. now cheney will fight fashlly and that's what the press buzz was about today and the thing is how does she lose the group and the party we have right now. if she ran for president today it would be grim in a republican primary. the question is if we host midterms will we host midterms that will make it a real campaign. >> we'll get to that question which to me is the question of the hour and rick, i'll go to you, another apostate republican strategist. mike makes the point that there were people who voted to impeach donald trump and have paid a price. there's nobody like liz cheney, though. this is how much liz cheney was, like, i'm all in. i'm not just going to vote to impeach and lay low. she has been as harsh as anybody in the country attacking donald trump, both harshly and with a lot of moral gravity and seriousness. let's play a mash-up here liz chain owe donald trump this past

year. >> will not sit back and watch in silence while others lead our party down a path that abandons the rule of law and joins the former president's crusade to undermine our democracy. >> it is absolutely clear that what president trump was doing and a number of people around him were doing that they knew it was unlawful. >> i say this to my republican colleagues who are defending the indefensible. there will come a day when donald trump is gone, and your dishonor will remain. >> a man as dangerous as donald trump can absolutely not ever be here the oval office again. >> think he's guilty of the most serious der liksz of duty in our nation's history. >> he's a criminal, he's a psychopath and a million other things, but other than that, he's just great. she went all in, and i can't --

i've been here for over 30 years and i've never seen a candidate that says i'm going to lose and straight in the teeth of it. >> mike's right. there have been a lot of republicans who voted for impeachment and they're gone now. what liz cheney did was vote for impeachment and then led with something that has broken donald trump's brain fundamentally. not only was she an apostate that would not bow, would not break and she did something that was unforgivable. she took attention away from heim and made a case against him in the media and during these hearings that has obsessed him, that has rattled him. i was told the other day that a trump-adjacent person he focused more on this race except his golf game in the last two years. he is obsessed with her. she's rent-free and she has five more months to cause donald trump a lot of sleepless nights and a lot of anxiety and she's upped the game here and showed

republicans if you stand against him you'll take a hit and you'll take pain and you'll come out as a stronger character in the field. >> luckily, she has a long-term lease and it goes until january. speak to that. >> i actually have a qi for rick which is the elephant in the room here is what do you do when voters themselves are acting irrationally and the question is what do you think of persuasion and the role that it has to play at this point? it's sounding that she not only lost, but she did lose in a landslide. are we to make of that that these voters are unreachable or is there more work to be done? i do think there's an instinct not to treat voters as adults. >> trump, you're either with him or you're an enemy. we saw the fact that that is a

very, very red state and if you reiterate that out and there are 35% of american voters who will vote for donald trump when he's dead. who will vote for donald trump if he's on fire. they are not movable. we studied the hell out of them at 15 and 16, and 17, 18, 19 and 20 trying to figure out and trying to break the code of these people and they are stuck. they are obsessed and they are post-republican. it is an authoritarian personality cult and cult behavior is different, and the motivations are different and the behaviors are different. >> i would kind of ask you this question, and you kfrng about what she's done here. she got elected to congress twh 2016. she's only run for one of their office and she ran against mike enzi. 435 members of congress, most of them, 99.9% of americans could aren't pick out of a lineup including people in their own districts and she's elevated

herself to this different place. do you think that before we get to the what she does next, is that a worthwhile for a member of congress who happens to have the last name cheney, is that a worthwhile transaction? she wants to have a future. is that the right gamble that makes sense to have done what she did? >> certainly the last name plays a role here and who her father is and that gives her inherent name recognition that most of her colleagues do not have. this is a moment of principle. i know we'll talk about her future in a minute and she is someone who was willing to give it up and she knew she was going to lose. she didn't just lose, she got crushed and she knew that was coming and she was willing to accept it because she wanted to defend the constitution. she's the vice chair and helped in leading the committee. she was the most powerful voice in the committee so far and the point person of what has been, what was and continue to be a stunning and surprising takedown

of donald trump. one that resonated this summer and most than what people thought would. at least in her short term she does have a seat in congress and we'll hear from that committee at least two more times and maybe more. some news today that mike pence open for the first time. there could be a lot more to be done there before she came to the office. >> this is very important, we haven't had a chance to start it before it happened. the commission wasn't goinging to do anything upon. >> by the time they got to the hearings, just like, and the reporting by mine and anybody else's that i know, she's been instrumental in not just prosecuting trump, but understanding the storytelling nature. her staff driving the tvization of it and making that thing like a netflix -- a netflix limited series that you needed to binge

and waiting for that next episode. she gets a lot of credit and even from democrats who didn't want to credit her, they'll say yeah, it's all been about her. do you think that that is going to -- that the skills she laid out and that she shown in that is the kind of thing that will last with whatever she wants to do next? >> i do. she's forging a third way and a very important one, and i think that's important, but it's ironic, right? she has the republican talent for story telling to the january 6th committee and that was an extraordinary turn of events and it's one of the things to happen to american democracy in the past few years and it's been a dark few years and i think she does have clearly national ambitions. the real challenge for her is going to be who is her voter base. it's not going to be democrats who disagree with her on every policy item under the sun and

it's not going to be the republican primary voters. she may have a while to wait. >> so, mike, i want to come back now to the topic at hand, and you immediately go all haecki. last night -- >> i am who i am. >> i know, and we love you. that's why you're here. last night, you didn't have to be a rhodes scholar or the chairman of mensa to get the thrust of her speech last night. she -- i'll read a little bit of this to you. it's too long for us to go through the whole thing and it's notable. she cited two people and she compared herself implicitly to two people. one, abraham lincoln where she called him the great and original champion of our party who was defeated in the lech in the senate and the house before he won the most important election of all. and ulysses s. grant, another american president. in may of 1864, after years of

war and a string of reluctant union general, ulysses s. grant met general lee's forces at the elths of battle of wilderness. most assumed he would do what previous union general his done and retreat. on the evening of may 7th grant began to move as the battle still smolderred and grant rode it to the end of the column and on the intersection of black road, and there as the men watched and waited, instead of, and grant turn his horse south and the heart of the army. she said lincoln and grant in our own great-great grandfather saved our union. their courage saved. >> i quoted a leg,y chairman of mensa and you'd have to be a moron which to say i'm running

for president. maybe not in 2024, but at some point that's the prize that her eyes are on. i wonder a, do you agree, what are the things that has to happen for liz cheney to be applausible candidate, i should say? >> well, i'm a huge fan. i admire her courage this which is tremendous and there's a difference between here and general grant. general grant had an army. i would vote for her in a minute in a republican primary for president. it's the other 25 million votes i'm a little worried about. the question is what can she do to have an impartial and they are sending a dog whistle to the press. >> she can gain attention and she can hurt job for her main goal preventing him from ever getting in the overa was office again and she might be able to engage politically in the pluming and wiring races like secretary of state races that will be very important in the

future. the hard thing is politics. we just saw that, but if that world changes in the future and evolves that could bring ler to life and what it would require as an initial step and i'm being a bit of a romantic here because it requires big changes that, you know, hard to accomplish, but if the party does far worse in the midterms and is expected and with biden's numbers and inflation, they ought to do well, but if they lose the senate because we have chucklehead republican candidates driven by trump then there might be a re-think because parties ultimately exist over time to win and if they keep losing trump's cost us a lot of lost elections along the way, and it's a crescendo, then there could be an opening for cheney or somebody like her. she's the only cheney, but there's hogan othes and that requires more. >> chuckle heads, meatheads, and

meatheads and a lot of republicans with those names. you talk about how liz cheney lives rent-free in donald trump's, so if you're there, corridor when cheney comes down, i want to run for president in this republican party, and her's a boat load of money. not now. not in their 24 yet. >> could she be a spoiler? >> as an independent, and it's really, really hard and complex, however i think she can play a role between now and 24 as an antagonist to him. she will not leave his brain. i promise you he will get obsessed about her. it will grind on him constantly. she can play a war as a

psychological warfare element against him. putting her into a republican presidential primary field right now as mike indicated and it's the other 25 million voters that are the problem and there are going to be a lot of 19th place finishes for liz cheney in the big field and a lot of last place finishes. they hate her because she told the truth about donald trump, she humiliated against him. she bit hates that beyond worts, not just as an anti-trump and pro-democracy voice and he hates that with the fire of a billion suns. >> everyone's sticking around and you'll get a chance to talk. liz cheney may be cast out of the gop, but guess who has not been cast out of the gop? sarah palin. she's still in the running for the alaska seat and stories from

the campaign trail that show sarah palin from alaska has not changed one bit. plus, rudy giuliani today facing a grand jury for an election fraud and an investigation that's targeting economy. >> george conway joins us to talk about all of these stories and the cookie monster. we'll need more than that. "deadline: white house" continues after this quick break. don't go anywhere.

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party of donald trump. we need to be the party of those strong values that brought young women like me into a party several decades ago. >> that was alaska senator lisa murkowski last night as she advanced in her state's republican party to face a trump-backed challenger in a runoff election. sarah palin also heading to a runoff for alaska's sole congressional seat. to fill the remaining months of the late congressman don young's term, a race that also features palin. a lot of palin. too early to call. we are back with our panel. rick, what do you make of the strange world in which lisa murkowski and sarah palin, two brands of republican women that could not be more different. >> could not be more different. >> both seem to be doing at this stage pretty well in that weird republican system. >> you know, the rank choice

voting in alaska. alaska's weird politics regardless and ask the choice equation in there and it is going to be a hell of of a ride here and palin's name i.d. was sufficient, but begich still put on a good show at 24-point-something percent and sarah palin is a part of the politics and the culture political apparatus and she will be on fox a lot. she will become one of the stars of the republican caucus and she will try to re-do her folksy b.s. all of the time and we will end up being cursed with sarah palin until she's carried out feet first if she wins this seat. do you think she will be in congress? >> here's sarah palin talking about rank choice voting and we had an experiment with that and people did not love it and people in new york were not happy in the race and sarah palin might fit in with what she said. she said she shd a statement and i'll be honored to fight against

the ever-growing corruption in d.c. today is the first test case of the crazy, convoluted, undesirable ranked-choice voting system and to everyone who's watching from outside tonight, and the cockamamie system that makes it impossible to trust that your vote will even be counted the way you intended blah, blah, blah. i ask you this question. i almost never say this to anyone else in my life, does sarah palin have a point? >> oh, my goodness, i'm laughing because that statement could have put out by a candidate in new york city. i think the real problem is that our elections are so low turnout because we make it so hard in the united states for people to vote. elections should not happen on random days in the summer during the week. they should really make it as easy as possible. holiday would be great.

automatic voter registration would be great. i think rank choice is confusing so that doesn't help matters necessarily, but it is intended to increase participation, so we don't need to get too wonky, but let's just say i will give sarah palin credit for maybe trying to improve the voter experience which is not something republicans are known for at the moment. >> totally true, and now we head into these runoffs and lemire, i'll come to you -- the alaska survey research in late july found 31% of registered alaska voters viewed her positively and viewed her negatively. republican pollster mark larkin thought it was more due to the fact -- that's about palin, and republican pollster matt larkin was mostly likely due to mr. portola and the low favorability

numbers. what do you think happens now in these runoffs? >> the low favorability numbers, she left midterm as governor and not everyone loved and she moved to the lore 48 and set up shop in arizona for a time and herr name recognition is still huge. she's not a guarantee to win, but i think she's the favorite to win and certainly murkowski would be a split ticket for donald trump. he took down his top target and we mentioned before with liz cheney and he's done it for senator murkowski, as well and that seems to have, at least for now, failed. >> mike, you get the big essay question here and everyone else has been doing true/false and multiple choice. sarah palin is a historic figure in this respect and she was a harbinger of what happened to your former party and she

prestaged donald trump and the fever swamp carnival culture and the disregard for voters and democracy and all that stuff. just talk a little bit about that. just what does it say? is it inevitable in some ways that in the era that we now live that she prestaged the woman who got in a bear suit and danced to rap music on national television and if she wins, she seems like a very important signifier of something. please tell me what. >> oh, god. crazy times demand crazy politicians, i guess. she is part of the breakthrough of dumb pop culture into politics and that celebrity for her namesake is rocket fuel. she was governor of alaska and she had a legitimate political career and now she went a little crazy and is created this persona where she's dancing in bear suits.

i will defend the rank choice. it is all about how in the old days as a candidate you want to get all of the votes you can and you want to be people's second or even third choice. and that's the problem for palin. is she anybody's second or third choice? that's when they're with her or not. the rank choice you have yesterday is only for the late five months and ted stephens' come through and you paid the primary who would get to vote for this choice and i wonder who will have the full term in the next congress. for all of the confusion and trouble, this will be a test if the strategy of the second and third choice actually does hurt polarizing grievance candidates like palin.

so we may learn something here, but she's the queen of pop culture politics helped invented and a precursor -- >> she said a lot of stupid stuff in 2008. >> just in 2008? >> which newspapers did you read? >> you look at this alaska voting system and it was too complicated to try scripted. i remember when they first started talking about the open seat and the rank choice voting and all of these were going to happen. alaska voters must be, like, who designed this? what were they smoking and whatever it was they had a little too much and give me a little bit. >> i'll leave that there, yeah. it is confusing and there are a couple of thing, two different elections and people believe in the future and it hasn't been put together in practice just yet. i'm sure there's a lot of confusion and sarah palin is probably speaking for some voters there.

i think she's still the favorite to get through this and it's because of how polarizing she is and there are people in the state and they know her and they don't like her. >> we've been punished for our sins in many ways and we will continue to be punished in the future. jonathan lemire, mike murphy, and mara is sticking around although i may be headed to juneau if i could find the guy who designed that election system and hook up with him. up next, we have the case against rudy giuliani and georgia's election fraud investigation and what he may have been up against in his faceoff with the grand jury today after this. the grand jur today after this moderate to severe eczema still disrupts my skin. despite treatment it disrupts my skin with itch. it disrupts my skin with rash. but now, i can disrupt eczema with rinvoq. rinvoq is not a steroid, topical, or injection. it's one pill, once a day, that's effective without topical steroids. many taking rinvoq

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yeah great decision! ♪ wayfair you've got just what i need ♪ today in hotlanta rudy giuliani, the man once known as america's mayor and more recently the former personal attorney to the disgraced twice-impeached ex president finally made his way to the fulton county courthouse to appear before the special grand jury that is investigating election fraud claims in the 2020 election in the peach state. we learned earlier this week that giuliani is one of the primary targets spearheaded by d.a. fani willis. giuliani left the courthouse today after more than six hours inside and chose probably wisely not to speak to the media and left in a vehicle through the secure exit under ground. joining us now, ashar, angapa

with counterintelligence and assistant dean at the yale jackson school. plus my man, harry littman as well as the host of talking heads podcast and mara gay. harry gets all wound up if you give him praise, we like harry when he's on fire. talk to us today and i'll start with you, harry because i've been boosting you. giuliani was initially a materiel witness in this case and is how now a target, what do you think giuliani faced in the six hours inside the grand jury yesterday? >> in the federal system when you're a target that means you can take the fifth. almost anyone does and doesn't show up. not in fulton county. question after question after question and just like trump in new york last week. they made him say the words.

now remember, he's in front of a special grand jury, but still they can take account of his credibility and demeanor when he does. they're going to file a report until willis and it's not clear whether he'll take them out of turn and indict him and whether she'll wait until the report is in, but he's a 99% candidate to be indicted. he went down in december and told every lie in the book and he's looking at election fraud charges and false statement charges and maybe even the state version of rico. >> asha -- >> those words are exciting in and of themselves so i say them calmly. >> harry -- when harry is projecting this kind of calm you know someone is in trouble and it's probably rudy giuliani. asha, i ask you the evolution in an investigation like this, the evolution that changes someone from being a witness, from being a material witness to being a

target, how does that unfold inside of an investigation for the investigators? do they think we think he'll eventually be a target or we'll classify him from the beginning or we stumbled on to something and that second one might not apply in this case, given everything rudy did in georgia. >> well, they need to build a case even if it seems quite obvious for the prosecutors to build a case beyond a reasonable doubt. so the accumulation of evidence will make the case stronger and stronger and then potentially get to a level where they are confident that they can charge and then actually bring this case in front of a jury. rudy's potential crimes as harry just mentioned are on a spectrum. there are some of these that are quite blatant, things that we saw him do -- on television, lie to lawmakers about claims of election fraud that there were suitcases of votes, et cetera, and then more things that were

behind the scenes, pot shall conspiracy charges, for example. i think a big difference here between the federal and state system is number one, there's no ability for, you know, a future trump pardon here. he's kind of boxed in in terms of if they have him on the hook for something like false statements and they can use that as leverage to get to things like his conversations with trump and i don't think the attorney-client privilege is going to go anywhere. the second difference here is fani willis is not constrained by things like the department of justice memo which prevents politically sensitive overt steps before an election. so she can move quite aggressively on giuliani or other targets in the coming months and so that is something that we can keep an eye out for. >> harry, i come back to you for one more legal assessment. i know you have thoughts about

this. as soon as it was revealed that giuliani was now a target, his attorney basically came out and said they were going to invoke attorney-client privilege and that's why he can't testify before the grand jury. the previous claim was that his health was so bad he couldn't fly down there and the judge swatted that out. and he basically said if they make me do this, i was his attorney and i was trump's attorney and we're one step closer to fascism. >> it's roy combs-style fascism. for starters, most of what he's charged with doing, remember moss smoking crack pipes and everything, he did everything, none of that has to do with attorney-client discussions cl is all it extends to and the crime fraud exception might apply. he might have invoked it today and there might have been a

skirmish or not behind the scenes trying to force him not to, and i think if he does invoke it and the value is not having to say the words of the fifth amendment and probable te just sits there and they don't push him and don't adjudicate and move to indict him, but he has no leg to stand on on attorney-client and if it's pushed and litigated that's how it will come out. >> so i do want to remind everybody, mara, what this is all about and some of the things that giuliani said if you're a careful viewer as i know you are of the 1/6 committee and we want to play it here and it's a mash-up of giuliani's smoking gun claims to the georgia state senate from the statefarm arena video in december of 2020, and just recall the time line here you have giuliani really pushed trump in november after the election to file a lawsuit in georgia, he said the dominion voting systems flipped thousands of votes and he told the georgia state senate.

let's watch this video here. this is part of the 1/6 committee and we pushed it all together to see what rudy was saying and gave sterling, the georgia official fact checking it and this is delightful video. take a look. >> i don't have to be a genius to figure out that those votes are not legitimate votes. you don't put legitimate votes under a table. wait until you throw the opposition out and in the middle of the night count them. we would have to be fools to think that. no need to push it any further, but there's more than ample evidence to conclude that this election was a sham. >> mr. sterling, did the investigators in your office review the entire surveillance tape from the state farm arena on election night? >> they actually reviewed four to eight hours where the action was taking place in the state farm arena. >> what did the tape actually show?

>> what it actually showed was fulton county election workers engaging in normal ballot processing. >> as rudy giuliani said it doesn't take a genius to see this is all a sham. that's a good thing for rudy because the guy who went to four seasons total landscaping is not a genius. talk about the way, not from the legal perspective, but the way a normal person views this. man, this was the worst, the trump phone call, it seems like they're obviously guilty. >> dead right is what it looks like and that's not a legal opinion, but i want to say i feel like we need to go farther back in time. we are sitting here in new york city and rudy giuliani was of course, the longtime mayor of new york. this is a real arc of the moral universe moment here because this is a man before he was america's mayor he was the tough on crime mayor and he made his career actually as a prosecutor in the most prestigious office in the land, and then went on to

become the mayor in which he delighted in putting away petty criminals mostly young black and brown people at rikers island and sending people off and for small smaller crimes than what he was under investigation for. i think the fact that he has been unmasked, unfortunately as someone who has evolved into being closer to a fascist than america's mayor is extremely disturbing and it should provoke some soul-searching among all of us who have seen his career in other stages. how did new york city produce this? how did america produce this figure? i don't know, but i will tell you that he is -- it's a remarkable human story and it's not just a political story at this point and it will change his obituary, it will be on his tombstone and it's a sad, sad kind of political end to a long

and stored career. >> they took his law license away and having been a squeegee man myself i felt happy that day because i remember back in those days he was mean to the squeegee man and a budding fascist even then. everyone, stick around. more on this rudy stuff, georgia stuff after the break. y stuff, a stuff after the break. - i'm norm. - i'm szasz. [norm] and we live in columbia, missouri. we do consulting, but we also write. [szasz] we take care of ourselves constantly; it's important. we walk three to five times a week,

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by my name anymore. i get nervous when i bump into someone i know in the grocery store who says my name. i'm worried about who's listening. i get nervous when i have to give my name for food orders. i'm always concerned of who's around me. i lost my name, and i've lost my reputation. i've lost my sense of security. all because a group of people starting with number 45 and his ally, rudy giuliani, decided to scapegoat me and my daughter shay, to push their own lies about how the presidential election was stolen. >> ruby freeman testifying on the 1-6 committee, poll workers, that day of testimony when they did that, i remember being

incredibly affected by it. it was the human face of a lot of stuff that gets archaic for all of us, about it's inside the beltway, or inside the courtroom. those people were the human face of the lies and the potential broken laws and the perfity of these people. do you think, based on what we know, do you think justice is coming for rudy giuliani for what he did? >> i think justice is definitely coming for rudy giuliani. i think that -- i'm glad you played that clip. it's important to remember there were real victims in this entire saga. the obvious victims on january 6th, the law enforcement officials, the members of congress, but that along the way people have been targeted. their lives have been affected. i think that the department of justice is right to pursue these -- pursue this investigation. and i think the states are right to pursue investigations to

vindicate their own harm caused to their own citizens. yes, to answer your question, i think rudy giuliani is on the hook. like i said, it's because so much of what he did was in plain sight. i want to mention also as an officer of the court, as a lawyer, i think he's -- he has a higher duty, a professional duty. i think we're seeing that come into play as well in terms of the false statements he made and the suspension of his law license and the penalty he will pay on that, too. >> seems like we should move from suspension to revocation. harry, i feel confident when you and asha agree about everything on a given point. so i want to go -- in some ways past giuliani himself and the trouble he's in and ask the question of whether this investigation is bad news for donald trump? barb mcquaid wrote on msnbc the

following. she says it is also possible that giuliani will invoke a different privilege, his own 5th amendment privilege which refrains people from answering questions. that permits people to refrain from answering questions if they have a well-grounded fear that their answers may expose them to personal prosecution. prosecutors also have a counter move here. if they believe trump is the bigger fish in this investigation, they could grant giuliani what is known as use immunity and obtain a court order compelling him to testify. talk about that. >> yeah. first, all of this is right. one quick agreement with mara and asha. giuliani has become not only decreped by vicious. he has become a jackal the last few years. this is very dangerous for trump

and there's an interesting dynamic here. yes, obviously giuliani could incriminate trump. he's 78 years old. got used to the high life, does not by any means want to spend the rest of his life in a georgia state jail. a target letter that two purposes usually. it's an invitation to come in and talk before you're charged and see what you can give up. even if he tries to be intransigent here, georgia could decide nevertheless give him use immunity which would say anything you say can't be used against you. no more fifth amendment privilege, you must talk or go to jail. i think giuliani is a big fish to give that to. they could well, but here's the big dynamic. if there's a case against trump right now, many people agree, she may have the goods as a matter of evidence, but it's going to turn immediately into a

law school hypothetical, go to federal court, could take years. not giuliani. they could indict him and get information, if he wants to cooperate about trump before ever facing this. short answer, big trouble for trump whether it's by cooperation and charging or if it comes to it, as barb points out, limited use immunity. >> you are much more a normal person than i am, i occasionally try to play one on the show. a lot of people watching this would be sure, a lot of people out in the country heard that phone call with raffensperger and people think if that's not illegal, a sitting president calling the secretary of state saying can you find me these votes? if that's not illegal, what's

justice even mean in america? >> it's an important point. there's a cost to democracy. when you don't pursue somebody who has potentially committed this type of crime, it's a huge cost to democracy. we saw that when we saw those election workers testifying before the january 6th committee. that's one example of the every-day americans whose lives are put at risk by people who are willing to give up democracy for a buck or for power. they are real, and it's not just fbi agents, it's everybody-day americans whose futures and lives are at risk. i wouldn't want to be that prosecutor right now. >> georgia, atlanta, fulton county, the eyes of the world are on you. we need you to come through on this stuff if we're going to restore our faith in democracy and the legal system. all of you are making me feel better it may work out. not an unusual feeling on this show, i'm not usually

optimistic. up next in our 5:00 hour, george conway joins us for the threats of the past hour, the next line of "dateline: white house" starts after this quick break. after this quick break. or atopic dermatitis under control? hide my skin? not me. by hitting eczema where it counts, dupixent helps heal your skin from within, keeping you one step ahead of eczema. hide my skin? not me. and that means long-lasting clearer skin and fast itch relief for adults. with dupixent, you can show more skin with less eczema. hide my skin? not me. serious allergic reactions can occur that can be severe. tell your doctor about new or worsening eye problems such as eye pain or vision changes, including blurred vision, joint aches and pain, or a parasitic infection. don't change or stop asthma medicines without talking to your doctor. when you help heal your skin from within, you can change how your skin looks and feels.

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large out-of-state corporations have set their sights on california. they've written prop 27, to allow online sports betting. they tell us it will fund programs for the homeless. but read prop 27's fine print. 90% of profits go to out-of-state corporations, leaving almost nothing for the homeless. no real jobs are created here. but the promise between our state and our sovereign tribes would be broken forever. these out-of-state corporations don't care about california. but we do. stand with us. between two initiatives on sports betting. prop 27 generates hundreds of millions every year to permanently fund getting people off the streets a prop 26? not a dime to solve homelessness prop 27 has strong protections to prevent minors from betting. prop 26? no protections for minors. prop 27 helps every tribe, including disadvantaged tribes.

prop 26? nothing for disadvantaged tribes vote yes on 27. why did they choose the most extreme, risky and high-profile evidence technique? does the evidence match up? that's in the affidavit of probable cause. >> the affidavit of probable cause in the warrant, we need to see that in congress. >> releasing the affidavit would

help. >> why are they afraid to let us see the affidavit. >> they need to see the affidavit. show your cards. aloha. it's 5:00 in gotham city. that, which you just heard, is the new refrain singing from the same song book, the chorus line of donald trump and his allies. releasing the affidavit is what they want. the document containing the reasoning behind the search and seizure of mar-a-lago last week. tomorrow at 1:00 p.m., the judge who signed off on that search warrant, will hear arguments on the unsealing of the aforementioned affidavit and other remaining documents related to the mar-a-lago search and seizure. the doj already filed their opposition to making that public saying earlier this week in that filing, if disclosed, the affidavit would serve as a roadmap to the government's ongoing investigation, providing

specific details about its direction and likely course and future steps. despite the cries from trump's allies, all those republicans, yak yak yak, to unseal the information, the "washington post" has more mixed emotions in trump world about what might be inside. trump within trump's circle believe that releasing the document would give him additional am nice to attack the integrity of the justice department's investigation. others fear such a move could backfire because they don't know what it contains, these people said. tomorrow's hearing coming as trouble for the disgraced, twice impeached, deplatformed former president mounts. there's new reporting on trump finding it hard to get good lawyers to represent him as he fights this federal investigation. former president trump and close aides spent eight days since the fbi searched his florida home rushing to assemble a team of

defense lawyers, but the answers they keep hearing is no. ordinarily the prestige of representing a former president and the new and complex legal issues at stake in this case would attract high-powered attorneys but trump's search is being hampered by his divisiveness, stiffing vendors, and ignoring advice. despite the fact he's a lunatic and lies all the time. joining us is john conway, a recovering lawyer, i believe? >> lovering lawyer. >> i would like to see you back in the day when you were full-on. you must have been scary. >> i don't think so. i doubt that. >> talk to me about the affidavit thing. it's not -- every republican in the same way as they were first on the fbi is the gestapo, they're totalitarians, then it

was definitely planted. that was the chorus. now the chorus is release the affidavit. tell us why it's a ludicrous situation. >> it would be a road map to the entire investigation. it would basically tell you what the case is. they're not required to reveal their case to the potential criminal defendants. that's not how this works. it just doesn't happen. that's the reason why all these people are saying we must have the affidavit. they know it's not going to happen. it's nothing. it's asking for ice in winter. you're not -- you get ice in winter, but -- wrong metaphor. but you just -- they're just asking for it so they can create an issue out of nothing. >> we talked about it the last couple days on the show. it's an important thing that's happening. it will be argued in court. you can never completely assume a forgone conclusion, but it is right essentially that it would

be a stunning result, nearly unprecedented result if the judge were to rule to release this affidavit. >> the government would go bananas. the government would take it up to the circuit court and almost immediately. it's just not going to happen. it's not going to happen because the law doesn't allow it to happen. there's grand jury secrecy rules. he has no entitlement to it. beyond that, they have a particularly strong case, they have all this boiler plate language from the cases and all these other cases where motions like this are denied. this is a guy who has a history of obstructing justice. you know, multiple, multiple descriptions -- multiple occasions in the second volume of the mueller report when he was obstructing justice. and he's been doing it right up to the present day with the january 6th witnesses. calling up some dude -- some former low-level person at the

white house and -- >> i would say more than history, it's a proclivity. it's almost a hobby for him. here's the thing -- >> it's a profession. >> if i remember correctly, as i was reading this thing in the "washington post" about all the lawyers they're trying to get, all of them saying no. if my memory serves, there was a time at the beginning of the administration when donald trump wanted george conway to be a lawyer -- not for him personally -- >> he would have viewed me as a personal lawyer. because everybody works for him. >> he was talking about solicitor general of the united states. >> the one i was going to be considered for is assistant attorney division for the civil -- it's a great job. >> you said no. >> no. >> you took yourself out of consideration. i'm asking you this not to rehearse old history, but you are a high-profile lawyer. what made you think at that

point, in early 2017, i don't want to be part of this? >> basically came to the conclusion there's something seriously wrong with this guy. i couldn't quite put it on -- i figured it out later that he was just plain lunatic, but i -- i saw what he was doing with firing mueller, and then going out on television and saying -- talking about it i did it because of russia. there's a screw loose there. i was wondering how big is that screw? when rob rosenstein appointed mueller to be special council, this guy will be at war with the justice department for years. >> i know you have to write these things in english, you say trump's divisiveness and propensity not to take advice and stiff clients, all of that is true. but if you were a high-class lawyer, the kind of lawyer that

trump would want, that most of those people would not -- those are almost pedestrian reasons not to be part of this. what you've seen over the last five years is a serious person who wouldn't touch this client with a barge pole. >> after i withdrew from consideration to be an assistant attorney general, i got a call in my office two blocks away from the white house, from the president, with about ten people with him, vice president pence, jared, who was the chief of staff there, he was going through the name of prominent american lawyers from major law firms in the united states whom he was considering hiring. you know, none of them wanted anything to do with him. it was all a mindless exercise. none of these law firms want to have anything do with him. >> there are some lawyers who do want to have something to do with him.

let's bring in carol now. it's good to see you. i want to get both of you to talk about this. we met some new lawyers in this over the last eight days. we talked about how all the good ones who don't want to work for them. i want to play this. it goes to the news of the day. one of those lawyers now, there's that woman, miss bob, and now this woman who was on news max yesterday. and she basically made a demand what donald trump wants from the justice department. let's play that sound. we'll talk about it. >> the president's position, the same as what i would advise him is to ask them to uncover everything so that we can see what's going on. i understand the witness protection issue, at the same time, these witnesses are truly not going to be concealed for very long. that's just not the nature of the doj and the fbi and unfortunately our country. there's always leaks. i've dealt with that, even with

local law enforcement. there's leaks when there shouldn't be. so i think it's in the best interest, so the country can get comfortable, to see what the basis was, especially from somebody who was cooperating, working with them, with the attorneys. this is not a reason to be blind-sided. >> carol, george used the phrase a few minutes ago like that's not how this works. i would say the demand that the government reveal the witnesses that it used to justify getting the search warrant, that's another one of those "that's not how this works" kind of things. how is it going in trump world with these kinds of attorneys making claims on television that even if you're a partisan you have to wonder is the president really well represented by some of these people? >> well, look, there's always these two tracks with former president trump. we saw this during impeachment

and other legal troubles that he had, during the mueller investigation, you have a set of lawyers working for him that are focused on the substance of that and then this overlap with what is a pr campaign. part of what the former president's team is trying to do here is the forward-facing pr stunt, if you will, or try to continue to, in their view, feel is win public opinion. by public opinion, i mean trump supporters. they feel this is a good issue for the former president, it's elevated him. it reminds his supporters that he's around, because he's not really that visible. hasn't been. not on twitter. he's been on television a lot less, and why he ran in the first place and why they liked him. they like seeing him. when i talk to people in trump world, his supporters like

seeing him in a fight. when you see a clip like that and you hear for calls for things that any lawyer knows is not going to happen, that's not how investigations work, that's part of the fight. that's the public fight. the question is who are the lawyers around the president who are focused on substance? >> or are there any? i want to read more from this "washington post" story. it talks about this issue. trump is rushing to hire seasoned lawyers. a whole bunch of bylines in the story. says he's rushing to hire these lawyers. one lawyer told the story from earlier in trump's presidency of his legal team urging him against tweeting about the mueller probe only to find that he tweeted about it before they got to the end of the west wing driveway. several said it would be impossible to represent trump and it was unclear if they would be paid. you have written this investigation, george, represents the shortest distance

between trump and an orange jumpsuit. >> i said it. >> so this is the most serious legal jeopardy he's been in. >> correct. >> the lawyers -- i go back to habbab, who served as a general council to a parking garage company. she started representing trump last year. she was sued last month by a black former legal assistant who said she was claimed by her boss loudly. she said habbab lost her cool about letitia james. christina bob, former oann anchor, whose prior experience is a handful of trademark cases

involving cross fit during a stint at a san diego law firm. i feel you have high qualifications to rule on this matter. are those women the "a" team? >> i don't think they're even the "f" team. they're so far below the level of qualifications needed to handle a serious investigation that i -- you can't even take it seriously. >> to carol's question, is it -- do you know or suspect that don trump has some hidden cache of fantastic lawyers, these are the ones he puts out on public and tv, but he has the real ones in the back, the well-paid, well-compensated -- >> you mean hiding behind the boxes of documents in mar-a-lago. >> i would never stipulate to that. >> no, there are no such lawyers. >> okay. i want to go to the fact that -- carol, this story is still ongoing. you have the story that the "new york times" wrote about philbin

and cipollone. mr. philbin tried to help the national archives retrieve the material that it wanted to get its hands on, according to the times. but the former president resisted the entreaties. that has a ring of credibility to it. i ask you, though, i'm a layman, i'm not a lawyer, but that sounds like if you had a bunch of people who would testify to that in court, it sounds like a confession to me. >> and there you have why the former president is struggling to have people sign on to be his lawyers in a number of these cases and investigations. it's because they have all seen the movies. they've seen what happens and how difficult a client he can be. you mentioned tweeting before

somebody had even left when he thought he had an agreement that he wasn't going to. the former president can't help himself. he's constantly needing to comment and say things. that line is in line with some reporting that we had this week about how the president would think about documents while he was in office. we spoke to a number of white house officials who worked for him at the time who said he treated them like they were his own property, much like how he saw staff and cabinet officials as working for him, not working for the government. so that's the mindset. the question is whether there was something really nefarious there. we don't know. and whether he had some sort of intent with holding on to these documents. certainly there it is in the president's own words, according to one of his lawyers, according to our reporting he saw this stuff as his. he had a right and was ententit

to it whenever he would like it. >> there's a quote in your piece, seems like an epitaph for the entire thing. it worried people all the time. george, i have to turn to the subject i've most wanted to discuss with you yesterday. you published a story in the "washington post," a column, some would call it, that deals with this thing we've talked about a lot over the last week. which i think lawyers call arguing in the alternative. you make one stipulation, another stipulation, another stipulation, they're all inconsistent but you're basically flinging it against the wall. in addition to writing this piece, you also did a dramatic rendition of it. >> i did do a dramatic reading. >> we'll play that now. >> okay. >> cookie jar? what cookie jar? i don't have a cookie jar because i don't have any cookies. if there's a cookie jar, you put it there to frame me.

there were no cookies in the jar any way. you put the cookies in the jar. people saw you. it was on fox news. in fact, you ate the cookies. but they weren't really cookies, they were crackers or something. it's my cookie jar, so any cookies in the jar are mine. in fact, i had a standing order that me cookies in the jar automatically became mine when they were into the jar. the jar, and the cookies in them, are perfect. all cookies are mine, no matter where they are, because i had an article that put me in charge of every cookie. >> one of these things, if you listen to the full version of it, it starts out like his trump isn't that good. by the time you get two minutes into it, you can't -- you're hysterically laughing because it becomes more -- it sounds more and more like trump as you go along.

that was a bold move to read that thing like that. >> i couldn't help myself. they asked. >> everybody should listen to it. the whole thing is hilarious. >> a trump impersonator did an actual video of it. it's much better than mine. >> you can get barack obama involved, hillary clinton involved. there's a serious point in the middle of it, which is what? i will let you characterize the point you were trying to make. >> he just makes stuff up. he just says whatever comes to his mind at the moment. it doesn't matter whether it comports with the facts or reality. he just says one thing, then the next thing, then the next thing. it's why he needs good lawyers to basically try to get him to shut up but he won't shut up. there's that story from the first book written by bob woodward, he must have had an

interview with jim dowd. jim dowd put trump through the paces of a mock cross examination and trump was spouting things out, making stuff up. basically the book ends with dowd saying -- with woodward saying that dowd couldn't say the one thing he wanted to say to trump which is "you're an f'ing liar." >> we'll go to break, i will say, maybe the smartest thing donald trump has ever done that one day in new york when he decided to take the 5th like 490 times. >> i don't know how they prevailed him to do that. >> with the right kind of cookies. much more on how those classified documents ended up at mar-a-lago and what should be done about it now. congressman jim heinz will be our guest after the break. and now that primary season is pretty much over and a full crop of far-right election denying republicans will be on the ballot in november, is the perfect storm brewing for democrats to shock the world and

have a good off-year election? later, laugh out loud takedown of jared kushner's new book. "dateline: white house" continuing after the break. please do not go anywhere.

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we are now less than 24 hours away from the next beat in this trump mar-a-lago fbi doj story. that will take place in a federal courtroom where a judge will hear from federal investigators and decide whether to unseal the affidavit that

supported the search warrant of the ex-president's home in mar-a-lago. a search that turned up classified and in some cases top-secret documents. as we await decisions from that judge, questions are still swirling about the contents of those documents and what should be done about the former president's handling of them. joining us now is congressman jim himes of connecticut. good to see you. i assume, because there seems to be a totally legal consensus, that your view is that the federal judge will not allow the affidavit to be unsealed and that that's the right outcome. >> i think that's probably right. the affidavit contains all sorts of information including testimony by informants, witnesses and others that now that we know that not just donald trump but the republican party generally will make threats, including threats on the lives of people, including

fbi agents involved here, there's a lot of risk. we need to step back here for a second and remember this is a legal investigation. a very specific legal process. which, by the way, the republicans never afforded to hillary clinton when about ten seconds after jim comey revealed an investigation, they shouted lock her up. the wheels of justice need to turn. if the department of justice can indict the president or -- the ex-president, or the ex-president's lawyers, or the ex-president's associates, that's what needs to happen. i know we're all desperate to know, because this is an unprecedented move. we'll all sunday morning quarterback the decisions of the doj, what is important here is that this investigation be carried out with integrity and come to whatever logical explanation it should. >> we've seen a lot of republicans over the course of

the last ten days attack law enforcement and say incredibly vicious, incendiary things. one of the things that's been most extraordinary is people who should know better have said things to impugn the basic logic of this investigation and deemed it illegitimate without knowing much. i want to play sound from cnn on sunday of your colleague on the intel committee, congressman mike turner. he was asked some simple questions on cnn sunday. and he gave some telling answers. let's listen to that. >> do you take home documents marked special access? >> no. >> and yet you're casting doubt -- >> quite frankly -- i've been in the oval office with the president. i'd be surprised if he has actual documents that rise to the level of immediate national security threat. >> you yourself would not take home documents marked special

access. you would not take home this sensitive compartmented information. >> remember what i'm casting doubt on. it's not -- these are labeled that. we don't know whether or not these are classified and rise to that level. >> congressman, that sounds like word salad and gibberish to me. maybe there's a special code that you make sense of it is marked special access, but it may not rise to the level of meeting a national security threat. try to disentangle what congressman turner there. if it is gibberish, how do you keep a straight face when you have a colleague on the intel committee talking like that on national television? >> you know, mike turner is in the impossible position of being asked to defend the indefensible. we could spend a lot of time reviewing the fact that no republican sort of asked the question about reality winner who is in jail right now because

she copied one document. what about that edward snowden stuff. are we sure the stuff was really truly important to national security? the pauses mike took there when asked whether you take home special access information. he doesn't take home top secret or even secret information. my republican colleagues are trying to set up this structure didn't work. no, obama didn't take secret stuff home. they're trying to set up this argument that, yeah, he took a lot of classified stuff, but i've looked at it, it's not that classified. it's not that critical to our national security. it's absurd on the face of it, but it makes more sense than the other defenses that the president tried to mount which have been absurd. >> i think i heard congressman turner say there were a lot of top secret things that fell

under the nuclear umbrella but which were not seriously top secret. they were less top secret than other top secret things. i want to ask about mike pence. he was up at new hampshire at a political event that people who cover politics are familiar with, it's called politics and eggs. he was asked about whether he would consider testifying before the 1/6 committee if asked. >> if there was an invitation to participate, i would consider it. but you heard me mention the constitution a few times this morning. under the constitution we have three co-equal branches of government. any invitation directed to me, i would have to reflect on the unique role i was serving in as vice president. if there was any formal invitation rendered to us, we'd give it due consideration, but my first obligation is to continue to uphold my oath.

continue to uphold the framework of government enshrined in the constitution that created the greatest nation in the history of the world. we'll do that. and we'll do that. >> like i said, i don't have the special intel committee decoder ring, but i think i have the decoder ring for that. that sounds like a man who wants an invitation to the 1/6 committee to me. how about you? >> yeah. it's interesting that you ran the mike pence clip, right after you ran the mike turner clip. they're doing exactly the same thing. they're trying to defend donald trump or at least not to get in donald trump's crosshairs the way liz cheney did or the way others have done and seen their careers come to an end while still trying to preserve a modicum of integrity. just to not appear completely absurd or seditious. i'm in politics, too.

what i think he thinks in his own mind or what mike turner thinks in his own mind, this is so outrageous, why am i in the position of having to defend this, that would be the end of their political careers. we've seen that story over and over again. we can all say isn't it wonderful that liz cheney and adam kinzinger have done what they have done, but you have to square that circle. >> i would say, i totally agree with everything that you said, but that sounded like a man trying to send out an s.o.s. and basically was like invite me, invite me. he can't come out and say it because he's pathetic and afraid of donald trump. congressman jim himes, thank you for spending time with us today. when we return, our political panel on where we stand heading into the midterms elections. we pretty much know who the republicans are, they're extreme, right wing and election deniers. does that mean democrats have a chance to do something they

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between two initiatives on sports betting. prop 27 generates hundreds of millions every year to permanently fund getting people off the streets a prop 26? not a dime to solve homelessness prop 27 has strong protections to prevent minors from betting. prop 26? no protections for minors. prop 27 helps every tribe, including disadvantaged tribes. prop 26? nothing for disadvantaged tribes vote yes on 27. primary season is not all the way over. we still have new york and florida coming up, but the table for november is largely set. one of the overriding themes when it comes to republicans, election deniers up and down ballots across the country.

winning candidates fit a pattern. across the battleground states that decided the 2020 vote, candidates who deny the legitimacy of that election claimed two-thirds of gop nominations for state and federal offices with authority over elections. specifically when it comes to the election certification process. 54 of 87 winning candidates are election deniers. 12 of 13 of the winners in arizona. 13 of 19 in georgia. more than half in michigan, nevada, pennsylvania. wisconsin, only 4 out of 11, but still scary. as a position, election denialism, that sells in the primary, but now for the big lie republicans they're facing a new ball game when speaking to a general election audience who may not be as receptive to that big lie bs.

let's bring in alexi mccannen, christopher dowd and david plouffe. do you think that democrats are out over their skis on the notion that what we're seeing with all of these things that have happened, whether it's roe v. wade energizing their coalition, uvalde energizing the coalition, donald trump being front and center and now with the stuff last week that makes donald trump more front and center and the republican party announcing every day it's slavish devotion to trump that democrats are saying we may be able to pull this off. are they right or a little too optimistic now? >> no, i actually think they're right. i actually think some democrats are too pessimistic in this moment. they're still operating on old assumptions on this. the trajectory of this national environment has changed fundamentally since april or may when republicans had a real

distinct advantage on the ballot numbers by four, five, six points. today, democrats have a slight advantage on the generic ballot numbers. everything you've seen, you and i had this conversation before, where there's a disconnect between joe biden's job approval numbers and how people feel about the democrats, that's primarily being driven by what their view of republicans are and how far out of the mainstream they are and how unaccepting they are of our existing democracy in this. if i were betting today in this race, i think the democrats keep the senate, maybe even expand it by a seat or two. i think the house is a coin flip today. what happens in the next 80 plus days is going to be up to the democrats, i think, and how they run this campaign and whether they really push the limits on what these issues are and how they can benefit from it. it's a vastly different territory they're operating in than they were two, three months ago. >> plouffe, as things started to -- as the momentum started to shift and people noticed there

was a change, kansas was a big thing. that was a catalyzing thing. the next big thing would be donald trump running for president, helping democrats hone the message about republican extremism, they're still cultists and in donald trump's back pocket. is not the only thing that furthers that interest more is what happened over the course of the last ten days related to the mar-a-lago investigation and the way republicans have handled it? >> it takes a special set of events for the national political environment to change. i agree with matthew, three, four months ago, we looked like we were headed to a more

historical political environment. democrats win back the senate and the presidency, you have a tough economy, that's generally a recipe for disaster for the party in charge. you ran through all the things that have happened over the last few months to change the political mark. i'll also say that, we're not 15 months out from the election. we're not 15 weeks out. people will start voting in a few weeks in a lot of these states. i think while the playing field is largely settled in terms of candidates, i think the dye is not fully cast but i think we kind of know what we're dealing with. so i will say this, i mean, there's some polls out today -- i don't know if they're right or not -- showing in pennsylvania, for instance, both candidates for governor and senate up double digits. barnes was up by 7 in wisconsin against johnson. i will say this is a high watermark for democrats. i wish they would win pennsylvania by double digits, i don't think they will, but if you can win some of these competitive statewide races by

3, 4, 5, 6 points, it makes the house vulnerable. and i think the governor's races in all the states you mentioned where you have these election deniers, i like democrats chances in most of them. as we saw back in '98 where there was a reaction to impeachment that helped the democrats, you saw in 2002, a national security election that matthew is well aware of that defied historical trends. we could be looking at that now where the environment is about as positive as democrats could have ever hoped for, quite frankly. >> i want to get to the question i led with, the question about the election deniers and a piece from msnbc. the headline is big lie advocates are dominating gop primaries in battleground states. in and of themselves these efforts won't necessarily succeed. they would likely face legal challenges in courts. people trying to repudiate the results of the will of the people in an election. political challenges from officials in other parts of the

election confirmation pipeline, but they can still cause nationwide panic, inspire vigilante and right-wing violence and spark a new legitimacy crisis for the nation. the anti-democratic myth of an untrustworthy election system would continue to live and potentially grow not because of new evidence but because of new radicals in government. the genie is out of the bottle. this is one of the big problems with the big lie, these things tend to build on themselves, suddenly it becomes a thing that gets further and further, more embedded in government based on actions, not just words. how concerning is it at in point, if you believe in democracy, to see this extraordinary run of election deniers in battleground states in positions -- running for positions, nominees for positions that really determine how elections are run?

>> you know, when i talk to democratic campaigns and democrats running for themselves for governor, senate against these folks who they acknowledge don't believe in democracy in the same way that they do, they'll admit privately and personally that it takes a toll on them. they acknowledge what you're saying. that come november, if these people actually win tshgswin, i lot more for the country than what we're discussing now. while democrats are optimistic and heartened by recent trends, there's a real factor of something entirely different existing which is this new iteration of trumpism. so it's not even necessarily donald trump. it's almost when you talk to democrats, this idea of trumpism being back on the ballot, not just because of everything we've seen in the last two weeks but because of this perpetuation of the big lie and the willingness for candidates, republican candidates and now nominees to step up for these crucial offices like secretary of state,

like governor in battleground states that could truly dodd not just this election, 2024 and beyond and vow and proposed plans to be able to have more unilateral control over certifying the future election results in 2024. they're laying out a plan, they're campaigning openly on this, it's an entirely different dynamic for democrats to deal with. that's where the contrasts keep coming up that you see across the country between dems and republicans in ads and otherwise. >> everyone is sticking around for the part of the show i've been most looking forward to. we'll get into the questions revolving around dr. oz and whether guacamole and salsa have anything to do with any of it. after a quick break. we'll see you then.

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include the tequila. that's outrageous. and we have swrb joe biden to thank for this. >> nothing, i have been waiing for this all day. this is a viral sensation. nothing says common man like going out to shop for your veggies at a place called wagners. that's a combination. nothing says gaffe like suggesting that salsa and guacamole have anything to do with crudeta. john fetterman in that senate race in pennsylvania he insisted that you should call it a veggie tray like a normal person. he raised $500,000 after that rediscovered video that went viral. we're pack with our panel. and matthew, i must begin with you. you know something about guacamole and salsa. you know it. so just one of these things. i'm going to stipulate they

think there's more that this is important in some small way. this is everybody is talking about this video. the fetterman people have seized on it like it's gold. raised all that money and they are going to keep pushing it. is this meaningful or one of the things that's like here today gone tomorrow, we're not going to care about this in 24 hours. >> i think it's incredibly damaging to dr. oz.. fist of all, i didn't' known what crudeite was. i thought carrots in our lunchboxes in the fourth grade you were getting them because they didn't want to give us chips. it's such a contrast to fetterman. john fetterman is the every man working class, lives in an abandoned car dealership in a small town outside of pittsburgh who wears carhartt jackets. and then you have it television celebrity who is terming vegetables by their french name

or whatever. when i saw that, i thought, wow, this is akin to the visuals when the sit economist was getting debated in 1992 and george walker bush went into the grocery store and didn't know what a scanner was in the grocery line. it's that same kind of thing. it's going to stick. >> i was talking to dan fiefr on the phone. there's a whole thing about gaffes. when does a gaffe stick? when it reveals something about the candidate. his view was that fetterman's people are running as dr. oz being a weirdo. they are all over that weirdo thing. including kissing his own star, which is a weird pea piece of video. this is going to stick for the reasons that matthew said it's revelatory in a way that feeds into a narrative that fetterman has been driving pretty effectively. >> no question. i think it would stick anywhere, but particularly to stick in pennsylvania.

not a place where weirdos do particularly well. in addition to being a weirdo, he's a world class tool. it's really remarkable. this is the biggest one, but it's misstep after misstep. this is the biggest food gaffe in pennsylvania since john kerry ordered a cheese stake with swiss in the 2004 campaign, which hurt him. fair lu or not, people thought it showed he was out of touch and elitist. so i think that -- listen, fetterman, i don't know whether he's up by 15, but he's opened up a lead. i would expect that to close. but the other thing the campaign is doing a great job of just punishing dr. oz for gaffe after gaffe, mistake after mistake, not allowing him to get much oxygen. and the clock is ticking here. a loft people have already decided how they are going to vote. before too long, they are going to be casting ballots. and so in pennsylvania, that's

important. we used to be only for the most part people vote on election day. but as we learned back in '20, a lot of people are going to vote by mail. he's a tool. by the way, none of this will work in new jersey at all. they have done a good job of punishing him for being a candidate from new jersey trying to win pennsylvania. it's like the oz campaign is doing everything wrong day after day. it's a remarkable thing to watch as a former practitioner. >> david, i never want to cut you off, but i have to get to the other thing about the show, which is jared kushner's book. i want to talk to you more, but i have to get to the book. and also the only thing i can ask is if you agree with plouffe that he's a world class tool or second tier. i owe you the minutes. i'm sorry about that. thank you all. when we come back, the thing i have been promising all day

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go golo. (soft music) if you're one of the people that preordered jared kushner's book, hoping that kushner would finally spill the beans and dish the dirt and tell you all the inside secrets of of the trump administration, i'm sorry to tell you, not so much. it's actually a lot worse than that. the book review came out today in the "new york times." the legendarily brilliant and at times lethal "times" book reviewer said the following about kushner's book. breaking history is an earnest and soulless. kushner looks like a manikin and writes like one. curb almost entirely ignores the chaos, the al nation of al lice,

breaking of laws, flirtations with dictators, the loss for leadership to speak about his boyish tinkering with issue issues that he was interested in. what a queasy-making book to have in your hands. once someone has happily worked alongside one of the most flag rant and systemic and powerful liars in this country's history, not only that, but married his daughter, how can anyone be expected to believe a word that person says. it's a very good point, mr. garner. there's so much more colorful language than that in that review. don't read the book. thank you for being with us this wednesday. "the beat" starts right now. nothing queasy about being with you. i feel inspired. i feel optimistic. take the reigns. >> john, i love a good mood board and a good verbal mood board from you. thank you,