up "way too early." "morning joe" starts right now. the republican party is the party of law and order. our party stands with the men and women who serve on the thin blue line at the federal and state and local level. these attacks on the fbi must stop. calls to de-fund the fbi are just as wrong as calls to de-fund the police. i want to remind my fellow republicans, we can hold the attorney general accountable for the decision that he made without attacking rank and file law enforcement personnel at the fbi. >> former vice president mike pence calling on fellow republicans to stop attacking the fbi over the search of mar-a-lago. it's not just the fbi. we'll explain how violent rhetoric from the gop also put irs agents in danger.

meanwhile, a court hearing is scheduled for today on the request to unseal the affidavit used to search donald trump's mar-a-lago home. we'll have new reporting on where that investigation stands. plus, new polling in the fight to control the senate from a tight race in ohio to the democrat in wisconsin expanding his lead over republican ron johnson. we'll have the latest numbers for you this morning. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is thursday, august 18th. joe, looking ahead to a big hearing today. >> yup. >> a lot of political waves beginning to sort of form out of this. >> they are. i'm curious, what did you think of mike pence's speech? >> it feels -- it feels like he's looking for a lane. i believe his speech, willie, if i'm not correct, was in new hampshire, was it not? >> it was. yes, it was.

>> that would be kind of the, i think, real story there. what is he doing there? there's obviously maybe a long game being played here. i don't want to get ahead of anything. >> but just taking it on its surface, that was mike pence talking the way conservatives use to talk. we've been discussing the last couple days about the fact that republicans that i have known my entire life, friends and family members, talking, repeating the hateful speech from republican legislators, calling republican congressmen and women, calling the fbi the gestapo. it's having a real impact. you're hearing more and more these calls for civil war. you're hearing it muttered under the breath of people who voted for bob dole and john mccain. the radicalization is coming from the top down, and it continues to come from the top down. great example of this, willie,

we're talking about the fbi and how republicans now want t de-fund the police according to the voices we hear, and extreme radicals who used to be mainstream republicans who are now talking about replacing the u.s. government. this is now moved over to the irs, where you actually have republican senators, powerful republican senators, members of congress, republican members of congress, leaders talking about the irs getting ar-15s and going door to door and knocking on doors. it's a complete lie. it was completely fabricated. it got -- i don't know who sent it out on their blast fax machine and sent it out, but it came out the day that republicans started to back off on the search because the trump people said, "hey, listen, this could be really bad. we may want to back off of this

narrative." immediately, this irs, you know, stories of irs agents carrying around ar-15s, knocking on small business people's door. again, from the most powerful republicans in the senate and the house of representatives, started making its way around. of course, threats now going up. it's a lie. it's another conspiracy theory. but this party, my god, it's -- and, by the way, i'm hearing it from -- i can't -- i wish i could -- >> no. >> well, i have used the word here before. i'm hearing it from idiots who i have known my entire life. going, "yeah, what about the irs coming to small business owners' doors with ar-15s?" how do you respond to that lie? like i've been saying for two years now, people read these lie on chinese conspiracy websites,

chinese religious cult websites. they read them on other websites. a member of congress says something about it, and they run with the lie. in this case, it's a lie that inspires even more violence against workers for the united states government. it's un-american. it's un-patriotic. if you're a christian, and i find it hard to believe that you'd be doing all of this stuff if you were, but if you're a christian, it is un-christlike to be going around, lying, and spreading violent rhetoric against people who are working for the united states government. >> yeah, it is a wild conspiracy theory. people are going to think you're making this up, joe. we'll dig into it later. it is out there and, as you say, it's been elevated to prominent united states senators. talking about 87,000 irs agents who will be added because of the inflation reduction act. some, according to the conspiracy theory, with weapons

threatening small business owners. obviously, we know what the climate is right now. we know people are prone to violence, open to it, see january 6th, and to put that out is beyond irresponsible. as for mike pence, joe, it is such a statement, a commentary, and an indictment on the state of the republican party, that it is even noteworthy the former vice president of the united states has to say, "hey, leadership of the republican party, let's stop attacking the fbi and threatening them. we just had a guy shoot up the cincinnati field office with a nail gun and ar-15. let's stop doing that." he said, "look, sure, we should question the justice department." he is not completely clean on this because he doesn't like the raid, but he is at least saying, "let's stop attacking the fbi. that's a bad idea." mika, they believe that is something that has to be said which is, as i said, an indictment of the party right now. >> it is. with us, we have the host of "way too early" and white house

bureau chief at politico, jonathan lemire. and former aide to the white house state departments, elise jordan. she is an msnbc political analyst. we have a lot to get to, including a hearing on whether this to unseal the affidavit to search mar-a-lago. it comes ten days after the search of donald trump's home. two law enforcement officials tell nbc news the fbi is still sifting through the seized documents, separating those determined to be covered by attorney/client privilege from those that are relevant to the case. let's bring in nbc news correspondent covering national security and intelligence, ken dilanian. ken, what are the chances there will be a decision to unseal it? it seems to be a highly confidential case in terms of national security, from what we are hearing so far. >> good morning, mika. yeah, from everything we can tell, there's very little chance

that this document going to be unsealed. even if by some remote possibility the judge decides to unseal a portion of it today, the justice department would then ask to black out portions that they think are sensensitiv. so there will be a process there. they'll say, "judge, we have these proposed redactions." we won't see anything today. i think the best we can hope is that we may learn some new things when we listen to the doj prosecutor stand up in court and reemphasize to the judge -- they already did it in writing -- but say orally why they want to protect this document. because, they say, release of it would compromise an ongoing criminal investigation, a grand jury investigation, involving multiple witnesses and, they said, investigative techniques. so i think what we're hoping to learn is new insights into how big this investigation is and where it is going, mika. >> jonathan lemire, i know you have a question for ken, but i

have a quick one for you. there was talk yesterday that donald trump was thinking about releasing security footage of the search, then some people close to him said, "i don't know that that's a good idea, boss. there are a lot of boxes there that might look really bad for you." >> oh, my gosh, joe. >> maybe they're pulling back. what can you tell us about that and the mysterious voice that talked to trump? >> hired from the old neighborhood to help him out down at mar-a-lago. yes, it is true, trump himself and some in his orbit did suggest they want to put out the video. there's a lot of cameras at mar-a-lago, as you might expect. thinking it'd display the fbi abusing power and traipsing across the manicured lawns and the croquet set. others said, it is a bad idea, showing how many boxes are coming out and how it'd undermine your argument, how this would look. they opted against that, at least for now. keep an eye on the truth social

accounts. ken dilanian, wanted to ask you, we'll learn more of the contours of the investigation if the affidavit is unsealed at 1:00. everything we know about attorney general garland and his justice department is he moves methodically, carefully. there has been reporting that he took weeks to sign off on whether to go with this search. with that as the backdrop, do we have any sense, people you talked to, just the timeline we might be operating here, as to when a decision could be made as to whether an indictment may come for the former president? >> we really don't, jonathan, because there's a couple mysteries here. one is, when does the clock start, where the justice department decides it is inappropriate to take action before an election, and that does apply in this case, since donald trump is not on the ballot? i talked to doj officials about this. they said it's a gray area. it is really not clear. it's sort of a stay tuned situation. but you're absolutely right, i confirmed the reporting that garland took -- he carefully

considered this decision and took as many as a couple weeks to have high-level meetings with senior doj officials and fbi director christopher wray. some people portrayed this as dawdling or indecisive. most people i talked to about this, though, say this was an incredibly momentous decision, and it is normal garland considered this for a long time. as i said before, this is not just about the urgency of getting back classified documents. it's about more than that, clearly. they've said as much in their affidavit now. there is an ongoing criminal investigation. what we're looking at here, again, is donald trump didn't pack these boxes himself. he didn't bring the documents from mar-a-lago by himself. so there may well be other people who have criminal exposure, and that will take some time to unfold. you know, we may see the justice department doing the classic thing they do, which is going after the lower level people and trying to flip them against higher level people. one thing, jonathan, on your point about the surveillance camera, the thing about that

that is actually rather troubling, is the fbi asked the trump folks to turn those off because they didn't want the faces of their agents to be on camera. from what i understand, the trump people declined to do that and continued to film the fbi agents. >> yeah, so those tapes are definitely out there right now. while that piece of the justice department investigation is going on, there's a new development in doj's separate probe into the january 6th attack on the capitol. "the new york times" is reporting federal prosecutors issued a grand jury subpoena to the national archives for all the white house documents it gave to the january 6th select committee. meanwhile, in the new hampshire speech, former vice president mike pence said he would consider speaking with the house select committee investigating the attack on the capitol if he were asked. >> if there was an invitation to participate, i would consider it. unprecedented in history, for a vice president to be summoned to testify on capitol hill, but, as i said, i don't want to pre-judge. if ever any formal invitation

rendered to us, we'd give it due consideration. >> elise, there are a lot of "ifs" in there, but if the headline were, if he was asked, he'd give a consideration. we don't know if he'd do it under oath or have a conversation, but, obviously, he is a central figure to this investigation. it'd be hugely significant if he did sit for an interview. >> well, it was an interesting move from pence. now, it's the committee's move, and it is in their court. basically, he's signaling, i'm open to it. i would like to. he teased it and brought it up. next month, who seems likely to be a featured speaker at the next episode of the january 6th commission? mike pence. it sounds like he is ready and he wants to, and he is using this moment to define himself against trump and the lawlessness of january 6th. speaking of, rudy giuliani testified yesterday before a grand jury in georgia that is looking into efforts by former president trump and others to

overturn the 2020 election. he spent 6 hours at the courthouse in atlanta. it is not clear what questions he answered. the former personal attorney for donald trump told the far-right news outlet earlier this week that he would likely invoke attorney/client privilege if asked about the former president. giuliani's testimony comes days after he was told he was a target in the criminal investigation of election interference. >> ken, i'm curious if you heard any reporting from georgia, if you can help us out here. if you're pleading the fifth, that usually doesn't take 6 hours. at the same time, if giuliani is now the target of a criminal probe, i guess it is just the lawyer in me, i don't really know how it would serve him legally to go in there and blabber for 6 hours. i think most attorneys would tell him, "plead the fifth, and we'll figure out what our defense is when they bring the

charges." what can you tell us? >> clearly, your legal training is at the forefront of your brain, joe. that's what every practicing lawyer tells me. we don't have reporting on what happened in the room, but it is possible they just required him to answer every single question they had. it may be that he pleaded the fifth 600 times over 6 hours. they've done that with other witnesses, as have other federal grand juries. we don't know. it is hard to believe he answered any substantive questions, given his enormous legal exposure we can all see in front of our face, and given the fact he is a target of the investigation, joe. >> what insights, jonathan lemire, can you give us about rudy giuliani in this georgia case? his responsibility, his part in the big lie? i know he was pushing the big lie from the beginning after the election, and there were a lot of trump attorneys inside the

white house trying to keep him away from donald trump. so much of this, and most trump insiders will say, so much of this began with rudy giuliani telling donald trump -- being the only person who would tell donald trump what he wanwanted hear. what can you tell us about the exposure? >> giuliani made it clear to the then president he was always happy to do the dirty work. he, of course, played the role of a smoke machine during the mueller investigation. then, of course, traveled to ukraine and basically got donald trump impeached for his efforts there to try to extort president zelenskyy and his administration to try to get damaging information about joe biden and his family. that, of course, led to trump's first impeachment. during the election, giuliani was a surrogate. then, of course, in his role as personal attorney, was one of those, along with sidney powell,

michael flynn, and a few others, who really pushed the conspiracy theories. people looked for new jobs. there was a covid outbreak. giuliani had basically free reign of the oval office and pushed conspiracies into trump, who was happy to hear them. we remember the news conference at the rnc when the hair dye came down his face. he legislatures and courthouses across the country and talk about how the election was stolen outside, but inside, not testify the same. georgia, he talked with state legislators and prosecutors, he lied, that he presented false information. there is a sense charges can be coming -- he is named a target -- at any time. as a postscript, the "associated press" told him on his return to new york being wheeled through an airport in a wheelchair. he simply said that he satisfied

the obligation to be there from prosecutors but did not go into details any further. he would not say if he took the fifth or how many times he took the fifth. >> joe, we don't know what giuliani said, but he was in there for 6 hours, which is a long time. the other point to make here is we know from the last year and a half or two years that rudy giuliani will be brash, will make big claims in front of the microphone, hair dye dripping down his face, but when the screws are put to him, when he goes to a federal court in pennsylvania, for example, and the federal court confronts him about what evidence he has, he goes, "well, actually i don't have any evidence. this isn't a fraud case after all. i know i said all those things outside the court." he makes these big defenses and claims on behalf of donald trump, but when it is his rear end on the line in front of the judge, he has a different tone and changes his story. >> that will be fascinating, what happened during the 6

hours. again, i can't imagine any attorney suggesting to rudy giuliani that he testify for 6 hours in front of a grand jury who is considering criminal charges against him. i suspect ken is probably right, that maybe they just walked him through question after question, took breaks. >> remember, there's a lot of waiting. >> maybe they just dragged it out a little bit. but you are so right, the attorney in rudy giuliani, there is still one in there, the attorney in rudy giuliani was always careful enough outside of federal courthouses, after launching wild conspiracy theories about widespread voter fraud, to go in and, when he understood that he actually could be held in contempt of court or could be sanctioned, possibly disbarred, he actually usually left that outside during

the press conferences. he said, "no, your honor, we are not saying there are large cases of voter fraud." mika, giuliani, and this is based on -- i don't base it on what i heard in 2016 from trump and the trump people themselves, but when he was considered secretary of state, they were saying back, what, six years ago that rudy giuliani had lost a few steps. that he was not the intellectual power he'd once been. he was addled at times. i only say this to say, he finds himself in an especially precarious legal position right now. i would suspect that the last thing -- again, let me circle back and say it again -- his lawyers would want him doing is rambling on incoherently for 6 hours. it'd do him no favors if a

criminal trial is coming up. >> we'll see what happens. then there is this, former trump organization cfo, allen weisselberg, is expected to plead guilty today to 15 counts of fraud and tax evasion. weisselberg was previously charged with participating in a year's long scheme to help top officials in the trump organization avoid paying taxes. people with knowledge of the matter tell "the new york times," as part of his plea deal, weisselberg could be called as a witness in the company's trial this october and would have to testify about his role in the scheme. he's not expected to implicate the former president or his family if he takes the stand. nbc news also had this reporting earlier this week. weisselberg is expected to receive a five-month jail term but with credit for good behavior, he'll likely only serve part of the sentence. >> ken, walk us through this. >> i have a ton of questions about this. >> seems to be threading the needle a bit.

i've committed all these felonies. i'll plead to them. >> but i won't talk about the family. >> and i will plead against -- i'll testify against the trump organization but will not testify against donald trump personally. seems he is threading a needle there. what can you tell us? >> yeah, and perhaps successfully for him. i mean, five months, you know, even less he could do standing on his head, as the old saying goes. he seems to have escaped this thing without giving prosecutors what they wanted, which is the testimony against donald trump himself. >> but, ken, but, ken, let me ask you this question, though. why would prosecutors, if they had him dead to center on all of these counts, on 15 counts, why would they give him five months? is it possible that he actually gave them some information that would help them in their prosecution of donald trump privately? said, "i'm not going to testify against him openly in trial"?

i know there is speculation, but i can't figure out how this guy could have skated like this, unless he had -- i mean, unless he had turned on trump in some way and given him information. said, "i'll give you this information privately. i'll tell you where to go. i'm not going to testify against him or his family in court." >> that's an interesting theory. i mean, i don't think we can rule it out. but my colleague, tom winter, who is an expert on this case and done a lot of reporting, is under the impression he is not giving them what they need on trump. i think one of the reasons, perhaps, for the sort of poultry sentence is this case brought against weisselberg has been criticized as the thing that a lot of companies do. it is rarely prosecuted. this hiding income through different kinds of payments, you know, to avoid paying taxes on

certain income. they were interested in getting weisselberg's cooperation. stepping back, we should also remember, it's not insignificant, if the trump organization is convicted of a crime, that could have serious repercussions for its ability to borrow money. it could really, you know, put a crimp in some of president trump and his family's real estate and business dealings. again, not the prize prosecutors were looking for. >> nbc news correspondent covering national security and intelligence, ken dilanian, thank you very much. still ahead on "morning joe," donald trump is reportedly piling up campaign cash after bombarding his supporters with emails for donations following the fbi search of his mar-a-lago home. >> how did that letter start? hi, everybody, i removed top secret, classified information regarding national security from the white house. please send $5. >> yikes. we'll discuss what he intends on doing with the money.

>> this is taking grifting to a new level. meanwhile, more on what we were discussing at the top of the show. top members of the republican party warning americans the irs is coming for them with guns. plus, republican nominee for pennsylvania senate seat dr. oz is asked how many houses he owns. his response leads to another memorable online video from his democratic opponent. we'll show it to you ahead on "morning joe." we'll be right back. >> and there's mika's house. >> oh, stop. ["only wanna be with you" by hootie & the blowfish] discover is accepted at 99% of places in the u.s. ["only wanna be with you" by hootie & the blowfish]

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>> legitimately -- i own two houses. >> survey says -- >> rich people think differently. >> steve harvey, ladies and gentlemen. that's a real estate portfolio. that's an online ad from the john fetterman campaign. >> turkey? >> playing off the response from his republican opponent for the senate, dr. oz, to the question on the campaign trail, "how many houses do you own?" the question came from a democratic campaign operative. oz said he, quote, legitimately owns two homes. the other ones i rent. "the daily beast" reports he owns at least ten properties. they include mansions in new jersey and florida, a 7,000 square foot country house in

pennsylvania, couple condos in manhattan, and, yes, those three properties in turkey, joe. >> yeah. >> why? >> things aren't going great. he apologized for a dust-up in a grocery store, mika. now, let me tell you, when you are apologizing for using the word "cru de @tat," i never woud have because i don't know what it is. is that a sport? >> yeah. >> so he's just bouncing around. steve harvey, "family feud," ten houses. >> that was from the fetterman campaign. he wasshopping, and it is

turning out to be profitable for his opponent, john fetterman. here's the video made in april ha that has gone viral. >> grocery shopping, and my wife wants vegetables. here's the broccoli. 2 bucks. not a to be there. asparagus, $4. carrots. that's $10 of vegetables. need some guacamole. $4 or more. she loves salsa. $6. must be a shortage. $20, and this doesn't include the tequila, for crudite. this is outrageous. we have joe biden to thank. >> you are blaming joe biden for your crudite?

>> it was meant to highlight high prices at the grocery store, but the message appears torre mixing up the name of grocery chains. saying he is shopping at, quote, wegners, and he uses the term "crudite" for what many call vegetables on a tray. >> a veggie tray. yeah, i've had a veggie tray before. you can get those for $7.99. where is your vegetable gray? >> fetterman jumped on the fundraise opportunity and chance to continue -- >> we're off to the races. >> yeah. >> folks in pennsylvania aren't talking about crudite at all. it is pretty ridiculous. >> fetterman released limited edition stickers for his campaign and continued making jokes on twitter about the gaffe. it was reported, fetterman raised more than $500,000 in the last couple days, including

$65,000 of the sticker alone. oz responded yesterday, appearing on "newsmax" to defend himself and explain his flubbing of the grocery store's name. >> but it does get to the factor, is dr. oz relatable to the everyday, hard working american there in pennsylvania? >> listen, i rolled my sleeves up my whole life. that's what my life has been about. when i joke about crudite, how ridiculous you can't put vegetables on a plate in the middle of the campaign, we have to work as hard as we can to fix problems. it's what i've done my whole life and continue to do. opponent, what have you done, rolling your sleeves up in your own life to make the life better for people in pennsylvania. >> for those watching in pennsylvania, you you know how particular people are about groceries. what ha wegwagmen and --

>> i was exhausted. >> i don't know that that helps on main street, yeah, i can't remember my kids' names. >> i just hope he at least remembered some ranch dip with all the vegetables he claimed to buy at inflated prices. it's just pitiful. you can tell he is just -- he hasn't been in a grocery store in years. frankly, probably has been on some wacky diet to boot. not even, you know, limiting vegetable intake. it wouldn't surprise me. wow, just, you know, god bless whatever republican campaign consultant is managing this one. it's really going to be an interesting ride. >> i mean, a all of them really. i mean, now, i guess, we can look forward to stickers being on crudite sections of high-end

grocery stores across america. thanks, joe biden! >> why did his folks on his campaign say, that's -- >> too much. >> jonathan lemire was telling me when he goes out to prepare his board for red sox nightsexp. you've been blaming joe biden for that, too. truthfully, it is a painful campaign to watch. whoever is filming that didn't say, sir, let's stop, just say vegetable. let's take this from the top, okay? we have all the time we need. but the houses, he spent the summer abroad, john fetterman is just back on the campaign trail, and the contrast of of fetterman a hoodie shaking hands, and dr. oz filming in a grocery store. >> how you let the campaign video hit the air, when he gets

the name of the store wrong. he is awkwardly holding the vegetables in his hands opposed to using a basket. >> ew. >> of course, using words most pennsylvanians or americans probably don't use. perhaps they said that is the term that turkey is. john fetterman, who suffered a stroke, has been invisible on the campaign trail for months, just started coming become out again, and his poll numbers are only soaring. the more people see of dr. oz, it seems as if the less they like him. this is yet another example of a donald trump endorsement of oz, where he could have gone for a more mainstream candidate in mccormick, who probably would have a better chance to win. herschel walker in georgia. perhaps jd vance in ohio. these are seats that republicans could have won, maybe won easily this november, and their loyalty to trump may cost them. >> okay. coming up, first it was de-fund the fbi. now it is, watch out for the irs?

some republicans are pushing dangerous rhetoric about the tax agency. we're going to get into this latest conspiracy theory from the far right. >> they're actually saying, they're actually saying, members of congress, that the irs is coming to your house with ar-15s. it's just abominable. plus, the latest on a major shakeup at the cdc. the health agency says it is about to undergo a reset. that is straight ahead on "morning joe." ♪♪ meta portal go. look professional. ♪♪ even if you don't feel it. meta portal. the smart video calling device... - right on time! - of course. that makes work from home work for you. so, shall we get started? there's a monster problem and our hero needs solutions. so she starts a miro to brainstorm.

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beautiful shot of new york city at 42 past the hour on this hot summer morning. >> t.j. is dialing them up this morning. >> yeah, there's that.

from poll workers to capitol police officers to fbi agents, the modern day republican party has seemingly left no stone unturned in recent years when it comes to unleashing violent rhetoric against public servants. now, there's a new target of the party's attacks, irs employees. in recent weeks, a baseless conspiracy theory propagated by top gop leaders has spread to all levels of the republican party. it's a lie. responding to the new funding for the irs and the recently passed inflation reduction act, republicans have united around a lie that 87,000 armed irs agents will soon come breaking down the doors of middle-class americans. in reality, most of the new funding will be put towards higher desk workers to enforce tax laws against the highest

paying americans. >> the richest americans. >> that hasn't stopped key republican voices from spreading lies about a federalized militia. >> are they going to have a strike force that goes in with -- >> yeah. >> -- ak-15s already loaded, ready to shoot some small business person in iowa? >> is the irs gearing up for war in our country? is nancy pelosi trying to start a nuclear war in asia? is there an effort by the national security state to stoke violence in a civil war here at home? >> those irs agents are designed to come after you. they're not designed to come after the billionaires and big corporation. they're designed to come after small businesses and working families. >> they're going to go after the mom and pop. they're going to go after the small business person, the independent contractor, the uber driver, and they are going to focus on basically parts of the country that don't support what the regime is trying to do. >> let's bring in nbc news reporter ben collins. he has been tracking the spread

of this far-right conspiracy theory on the internet and is with us now. one of the reasons i wanted to talk to you today about this is, which i talked about on the show yesterday, i had two really disturbing discussions with people i've known -- one family member i've known my entire life, talking about civil war. another, a conservative thought leader in washington, d.c., who has always been responsible, always been a small "c" conservative. we've agreed on most things. he also was talking about civil war, talking about how the united states government was not sacrosanct and could be replaced. civil war. in both of the conversations, one of their key talking points was that 87,000 irs agents are going to be armed with ar-15s, and they're going to be coming to kick down their doors. this was -- i knew it was a

spectacular lie, a spectacular conspiracy theory, but i must say, most of these conspiracy theories and lies that put federal employees at risk are spread by back benchers. this lie is being spread by top -- the top republican in the house, some of the top republicans in the senate. charles grassley asking, "are they coming with loaded ar-15s?" mitch mcconnell, what are you going to do about this, mitch? >> nothing. >> are they coming with ar-15s to mom and pop houses? marco rubio is writing about it. kevin mccarthy. all this is doing, and i don't have to explain it to you. forgive the rant. i'm trying to explain to the viewers why we're having this discussion right now. it is just putting more people's lives at risk because of this conspiracy theory.

where the hell did this conspiracy theory start? >> it started in the dredges of the internet. but the difference is, between now and several years ago, all the gop lawmakers are in on this. they're clearly fine with it. let's say, for example, jade helm in 2015. this conspiracy theory that texas is about to be taken over by barack obama who wanted to take over the government permanently. he wanted to run for a third term or something. so he was getting all of these military contractors together to quietly take over texas. in 2015, ted cruz got a lot of phone calls about this because it was on "info wars" all the time. it was a huge thing in militia circles. you know, it was finally happening. they were finally coming to take your guns. but ted cruz went and said, "you know, i called the pentagon. there's really nothing going on here, guys. don't worry about it." the difference is, now, ted cruz is trying to ramp this up. ted cruz is trying to say the

irs is coming after you specifically. the irs is part of a larger mob. that's the difference now. those "info wars" ideas that used to exist exclusively on, you know, the extreme far right, the stuff on the end caps at the supermarket that wasn't brought up in regular politics, that is the gop now. that's a huge part of what they do. they ramp up the fear. they try to break down the walls between two different ideas. for example, the fbi is, you know, searching mar-a-lago. they're going to come after you with fbi agents. those things coalesced into one big idea last year because it suits their narrative. if they're coming after donald trump, they're eventually going to come after you. >> ben, as you know because you looked into this, there is a division of the, irs that carries weapons, and it has since 1919, for 100 years. i think that's where they're digging deep to try to find some evidence. that's not a new thing. it was happening under donald trump, as well, a couple yeas

ago. i guess the question is what this means to the base, the people who are hearing the voices of chuck grassley, ted cruz, and other members of congress whose words they follow and listen to very closely, when the stakes are raised to, as they have been with the fbi search of mar-a-lago, we are now at war with the government. you now have members of congress saying, in fact, the government is coming to your door armed, ready for war. be ready. what do people online hear when they hear those comments? >> yeah, they hear war. this is on tiktok. militias have taken to tiktok recently, specifically to recruit based on this thing. it's people holding up their guns and saying, "come andic take it, basically," to the 87,000 agents. it is very viral and very visual, the way they talk about people coming to their homes. it is also on linkedin, which sounds ridiculous.

in relatively professional settings, where this stuff was not allowed previously, it's taking over that part of the party. a large part of the gop right now is absolutely convinced that there is some sort of fascist takeover of the united states. they're getting convinced of this because, in a lot of ways, their basic ideas are losing. they're resorting to threats and intimidation. that is an enormous problem for them. by the way, when you talk about the gun part of this, the thing they always bring around, there are, like you said, parts of the irs that are supposed to be part of the job description, literally, online. people should be comfortable holding a gun. it says it on that job description. that's just one of several kinds of jobs, just like, you know, if you're in the nba, a coach does a different thing than a point guard. in this case, some people do have to hold guns at the irs. they found that one job description and said, that is

what is going to happen with these 87,000 people. they'll come to your home. it is the old russian disinformation tactic. find the grain of truth. you don't need to be an agent to use that tactic anymore. >> ben, you talked a couple of times throughout this segment about "info wars." alex jones, you could say, is maybe the chief disinformation officer of all the conspiracy theories in this country. because if it doesn't start with him, he amplifies it. can you give us an update on what's happening with the sandy hook parents and their case against alex jones in connecticut? >> yeah. yesterday, there was a hearing to see if those -- that leaked phone of alex jones' from a couple weeks ago, if you remember that, if that broke some sort of law. the fact that his lawyers accidentally leaked that to another team of lawyers. because it had medical information of the people in the connecticut case, the second

case that is upcoming here. including psychiatric records of the sandy hook parents, which is pretty grim. that sort of thing should not be let out into the public, and that is why they are facing sanctions in connecticut for this. the actual hearings upcoming, this could be another much more, i would say, onerous trial for alex jones. this is in the backyard of the sandy hook parents. but i would -- i just want to caution you guys, he has made more money than ever in the last few weeks. he had record sales selling the doomsday kits. it is, in part, because he was able to fundraise off of the lawsuit in texas. also, in part, because he is able to fundraise off of the mainstreaming of this idea that the government is coming to take your stuff and the apocalypse is coming. it is a very regular thought right now in the gop that alex jones planted a seed for it in the last two decades.

>> obviously, joe, the irony here, whatever it is, is that they're going to make it so irs agents will need to protect themselves because they're ginning up all this hatred. they are the ones creating the danger. >> well, they already have. if you are an irs agent, you're far less safe today than you were a couple days ago. >> media people are doing it. >> chuck grassley went on "fox and friends" and suggested irs agents would come with ar-15s loaded to people's homes in iowa. >> someone needed to challenge that. >> it is extraordinarily reckless. kevin mccarthy, the head of the republican party in the house, is saying the same thing, spreading the conspiracy theories. this is -- you know, this sort of talk is what led to oklahoma city. it is what led to timothy mcveigh. after it happens, it's too late to pull back and say, "oh, let's be responsible," after it

happens. >> yeah. >> this is, again, this is what we were warming about the inflammatory rhetoric about the search, the legal search. >> absolutely. >> we kept warning. sure enough, a guy tries to break into an fbi office, field office in ohio, break through the glass with a nail gun, shatter the glass, then go in and slaughter fbi agents with his ar-15. it is too late, republicans, after next oklahoma city happens. >> yeah. >> that's why i had said, chuck grassley, i mean, somebody, maybe mitch can't say something to chuck grassley about this, but somebody in the republican party needs to pull back on this, just like mike pence pulled back on the radical, reckless talk regarding fbi agents and de-funding the fbi and calling them thegestapo.

again, i just got to say this, ben, this doesn't happen just online, contained online with some crack pots. i've got mainstream americans, two in the same day, talking about civil war and revolution and overthrowing the u.s. government because irs agents are coming to their house with ar-15s. i mean, this is the stakes. this is -- by the way, nobody else is spreading this. the republican party is spreading this right now. they're putting, not only federal employees at risk, but you look at the pictures of oklahoma city and see who else died in that blast. that's what is at stake here. by the way, i was in congress during oklahoma city. i saw the criness that led up to it. we're there again. >> wow. >> yeah, there are people, by

the way, joe, you're talking about mainstream republicans worried about this thing. but people who are focused on action, they talk about the oklahoma city bombing. they talk about that as an awakening for them and a blueprint. that's more on the militia and extreme far-right spaces. but they do, they talk about that as a model for them because, other than the whole, you know, bombing millions of americans -- not millions, but hundreds of americans thing, that was, to them, protest. that's the scary part of this entire thing. we are entering a phase where violent action is their form of protest. it is a scary time. i just do want to say this, if you are somebody who, at one point in your life in the future, want to disagree with donald trump about anything, they will come after you next. the idea that you are somehow safe because you are defending their conspiracy theories right

now, it will come to an end the second that you stand on some sort of principle that goes against what they have to say. >> all right. nbc's ben collins, thank you very much for coming on this morning for this important conversation. we hope somebody is listening. coming up, president biden's recent string of legislative wins seems to have had an impact on his poll numbers. we'll show what voters are saying about biden and what it means for democrats in november, what it could mean. also ahead, new attacks in eastern europe, as russian missiles hit ukraine's second largest city. we'll be joined by ukraine's ambassador to the united states ahead on "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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but this is what happens when kids with little more than a couple nick nickels in their po and a dream decide they're going to go the distance. willie geist, how inspirational. your team against the powerhouse, mega-rich tampa bay rays, last night, showed they were the little engine that could. >> wow, you're choking me up, joe. you're choking me up. yeah, josh donaldson, just a kid, lives there in the south bronx. he was playing stick ball outside. mom was saying, "come in for dinner, joshy." "one more, mom." >> wait, wait, they're calling me to the plate! >> he hits a grand slam in the bottom of the tenth. boy, did the new york yankees need that. they've been on a huge skid since the all-star break. not playing well at all. they were down 7-4 in extra innings, then he comes up and hits the grand slam. back to a ten-game lead. one thing i'll point out for all of us with the american league east standings, i was saying to john, every team in the american league east is .500 or better.

no other division comes close to that. incredibly strong division. yankees aren't back, of course, because of one win. they're still struggling at the plate. but they did put up a bunch of runs last night. >> something you couldn't say yesterday. red sox were below .500. now, they're at .500. jonathan lemire, i know you wish nothing but ill for these scrappy little kids from the south bronx, but we needed the yankees to win last night, to beat the rays. they did. seriously, for us, it's like rocky balboa. we're going into pittsburgh up against that team, we somehow manage to scrap out a couple wins. they're the apollo creed, of course, of baseball. we somehow laid a couple gloves on them the past couple nights. >> josh donaldson was in the little league park down the street before he moved to the yankee stadium. of note, the only other ballpark in america where that would have been a home run, except for

yankee stadium. >> all right. >> here we go. >> you're right, joe, the red sox picked it up a little. earlier in the year, they beat up on some teams. we're back to .500. hoping the yankees get some wins. they play the bluejays now this weekend. another series, bluejays another team ahead of us in the wild card standings. sox are four out, seven weeks to play. they have to hop a bunch of teams to do so. they are going to need help. eventually, they'll have to start beating some good teams, as well. >> we certainly don't want to leave elise jordan out of our sports talk. let's have, right now, our official college football preview. as a mississippi girl, are you an ole miss, mississippi state, southern miss, or yale? >> joe, you know, i'm just a fair weathered fan. i choose, if ole miss is having a better season, i'm an ole miss

fan. if mississippi state is having a better season, i'm a mississippi state fan. just because the family is divided on this question, so i take the easy way out. >> very good. >> see how it goes there. >> we'll get back to you and see. let's get to the news. it is four minutes past the top of the hour. on the heels of liz cheney's loss this week in the republican primary in wyoming, "the wall street journal" is out with a new editorial entitled, "cheney, trump, and the gop." the editorial board writes, in part, this, "cheney is a conservative by any measure and she has the courage of her convictions. a party that can't tolerate cheney and others for voting their consciences after the ransacking of the capitol by a trump-inspired mob is narrowing its political and moral appeal. cheney's concession speech suggests her mission in politics now is to prevent trump from

becoming president again. one option is running for the white house herself. she'd have little chance at the gop nomination, but her goal may be to prosecute the political case against trump in such a way that opens the door to other candidates. democrats may hate trump, but they also believe he will help them retain power despite their manifest policy and governance failure. liz cheney lost in wyoming, but her revenge may be a divided gop that loses again in 2024." i would add a slight twist to that, joe. i think democrats are just as concerned about trump becoming president again. i don't think they take him for granted one bit. >> i don't think they take him for granted, but there are certainly people that can read polls. you know, willie, we've been talking about it a good bit. this is what "the wall street journal" is talking about now. we're a country, we're a 50/50 country.

you win presidencies on the margins. donald trump did it, lost the popular vote but won the electoral vote in 2016. joe biden won fairly comfortably. but if you look at those individual states, really tight in wisconsin. really tight in -- not quite as tight in michigan, but in georgia, arizona. it is a 50/50 state. republicans understand, what democrats are starting to understand a little more right now, is if donald trump is losing 30% of the republican party, yes, liz cheney only got 30%. a person who is prosecuting a case against, you know, the key figure in the republican party, that's that 1/3 that's going to cause republicans so much trouble in 2024. not in the house races in 2022, because you gerrymandered districts. but in 2024, this is going to cause -- again, we always talk about the suburbs of atlanta. we always talk about the philly

suburbs. the suburbs of detroit. it's just a real problem and something "the wall street journal" is trying to do, something i was doing yesterday, something i've been doing, trying to warn republicans that donald trump is the path to electoral defeat. turn away before it's too late. of course, they haven't listened for five years, so they won't listen now. >> we were joking the last hour about dr. oz and the crudite. that is donald trump's hand-picked candidate. knows him, thought he'd be good on tv. it's all about image. herschel walker in georgia, hand-picked candidate. he was my running back on the generals in 1984. let him run for the united states senate. these are his guys. if they lose, it'll be on donald trump. as joe said, the margins in 2020 in places like georgia and arizona were 10,000, 11,000 votes. if there are enough republicans, and i believe there are, who say, yes, i think attacking the united states capitol was unforgivable, and i think that's

a bad thing in our country, and i think targeting fbi agents and irs agents is a bad thing, i don't want anything to do with that part of the republican party, it ends up costing them elections. >> well, and you have that sliver, then you have the sliver of georgia republicans like the ones we spoke to in our "morning joe" focus groups, who say, this herschel walker guy, he's really crazy. i don't think he is stable enough to be a united states senator. yet again, donald trump has put a georgia senate seat in play, as he has with so many other senate seats in the country, just because his own hubris has gotten in the way of political acumen. you can't help but wonder, are there some republicans in leadership who they would not object to liz cheney coming in during the primary and siphoning off votes from donald trump. they want to be rid of him, too, and they're sick of it. maybe in the back of their minds, it wouldn't be such a bad

thing. >> again, we've been talking about the terrible candidates that donald trump has put out there. also, though, what we've been discussing over the past hour, it scares the hell out of voters. it scares the hell out of rational, reasonable republicans. that's why i'd think mitch mcconnell, other reasonable, rational leaders would want to assure suburban voters, assure those moving as fast as they can away from the trump republican party, that they disassociate themselves with comments like this -- and, by the way, let me ask you, how do you think, dear viewer, this will play in the suburbs of atlanta? a republican senator, one of the most senior republican senators is saying that the irs was going to have, quote, a strike force that goes in with ar-15s already loaded, ready to shoot some small business person in iowa.

you have kevin mccarthy talking about a, quote, army, an army of 87,000 irs agents going to get you. you have fox news personalities -- let me get this quote right -- fox news personalities saying, "the irs is coming, quote, to hunt down and kill middle-class taxpayers." let me say that again, i wonder -- by the way, well, i won't get into the lies that are said about me. >> yeah. >> i wonder and mika wonders why so many people we've known our entire life come up with these crazy conspiracy theories. all they have to do is read rupert murdoch's "wall street journal" or the "associated press" or "reuters" to find the truth. people are hearing every day

things like this, the irs is coming, quote, to hunt down and kill middle-class taxpayers. chuck grassley saying, ar-15s already loaded, ready to shoot small business owners in iowa. i plead with my republican friends, i still have some, please call this hate speech out. >> yeah. >> please, please. you have placed the target on irs agents. on the backs of irs agents. you have placed a target on the back of fbi agents. the federal bureau of investigation saying the largest spike in death threats against law enforcement officers because of that conspiracy theory.

and now this. i beg, i beg responsible republicans in the united states senate to please take chuck grassley aside and sit and talk to him. have him back off of that language. kevin mccarthy, i don't know who can talk to kevin mccarthy. talking about an army of irs agents. again, i don't know what responsible head of network would allow people to be saying that americans who work for the american government are coming to, quote, hunt down and kill middle class taxpayers. you guys need to clean this up. i say you've gone too far. you know you've gone too far. there are a lot of people, like mitch mcconnell, that were

around after oklahoma city. this has to stop, republicans. you're taking it to the next level. i assure you, if you don't care about americans being killed, if you don't care about domestic terror attacks, let me assure you, if the only thing you care about is being re-elected, let me assure you, this is not going to do it for you. it'll be the opposite. let's move on to the search of mar-a-lago. a federal judge in florida may decide today if the affidavit used to justify the search warrant of mar-a-lago should be unsealed, open to the public. the doj is arguing that the affidavit should remain sealed, calling it a road map to the ongoing investigation. saying its unsealing may

compromise future investigative steps. it is also possible the unsealing would lead to the exposure of cooperating witnesses, something the doj says could also compromise the investigation. again, a velocity investigation. let's bring in "new york times" congressional reporter luke broadwater. state attorney for palm beach county, florida, dave aronberg. dave, what are the chances we see any of the -- any of this warrant sees the light of day, given what they've already put out as some concerns of making it public? >> good morning, mika. the judge is not going to unseal this affidavit. that's because, doing so would put confidential sources at risk, especially in this environment. it would also allow witnesses to be tampered with, and it would tip-off potential suspects so they can coordinate their stories. there is a reason we prosecutors play by a different set of rules than politicians. because we have to protect,

also, not only investigations, but a defendant's right to a fair trial under the sixth amendment. if you put out the information, you're essentially litigating this case in the press. that's a no-no. those defendants could find that the entire investigation goes away or the case gets dropped because there's evidence being put out there that could later be suppressed at trial. releaing this affidavit serves no one, except trump world, which is why they want this to happen. >> luke, let me ask you, this all ties into your new reporting this morning about federal prosecutors investigating the role donald trump may have played in the attack on january 6th. asking for documents from the national archives. what does that tell you, to get white house documents, effectively, in and around january 6th? >> right. well, it tells us that the federal prosecution, the federal investigation that is going on

into january 6th is now bringing in the national archives. this was a subpoena that was sent out in may, and it asked for every single piece of paper, every single document that was sent to the january 6th committee. i think there's been some concern from democrats on capitol hill that the justice department was lagging behind the january 6th committee. they weren't discovering things as quickly as the committee was. they hadn't showed enough urgency. this shows that they want every single thing the committee has that came from the archives. now, could there be some crossover with the search of mar-a-lago? we don't know that. we have not received indication yet that any document taken back from mar-a-lago was related directly to january 6th, but, you know, we do know that donald trump was, you know, obsessed with overturning the election in the final weeks in office. there's a potential there could be some documents there.

we just haven't learned that there necessarily is a crossover with the search of mar-a-lago and the january 6th investigation. >> hey, luke, it's jonathan. you hit a point that several democrats made to me yesterday. this feeling the department of justice is lagging behind the january 6th select committee in their probe, much to their frustration. speaking of the january 6th select committee, we heard from former vice president mike pence yesterday for the first time, signaling that he would be open to talking to them. he had refused in the past, even though some of his aides spoke. pence, of course, were he to do so, would shed light on not just the weeks before january 6th, where he was privy to the president and his allies' plans, but also, of course, what happened that day as he was at the capitol as rioters breached the citadel of democracy. what do we think? is the january 6th committee going to ask him, and is former vice president pence going to follow through? if he testifies, what would that look like? >> i talked to the committee yesterday about this, and they're holding their cards close to the vest.

they've been deliberating internally for weeks about the best strategy to bring in vice president mike pence, if at all. for a while, there was the belief two of his top lieutenants, that their testimony had served as a fine replacement for mr. pence. but these comments yesterday did really pique their interest. he showed an openness, i think, more than he has in the past, to coming in. he did say there is not a lot of precedent for a vice president testifying before congress or being subpoenaed and forcing them to come in. but he did show an openness. we have unanswered questions. particularly, there is a 10 to 15-minute gap in a private phone call between donald trump and mike pence on january 6th. we don't exactly know what was said. no one else was in the room. no one heard it. we could hear firsthand what donald trump exactly was pressuring mike pence to do in those one-on-one conversations,

if he were willing to come in and say exactly what donald trump told him. >> dave, elise jordan here. rudy giuliani had to spend a lot of time in georgia yesterday testifying, but you think he probably didn't answer very many questions. what do you think is the best-case scenario for giuliani, given his meddling in the georgia election and the georgia officials who are seeking accountability? >> elise, i think giuliani has the most legal liability stemming from his actions in georgia of anyone in trump world. i think he probably evoked the fifth amendment hundreds of times. it was a fifth amendment palooza, 6 howeve hours of it, to say attorney/client privilege. best thing, he cooperates and others are indicted. there is a target on his back,

metaphorically speaking, because fani willis, the district attorney in fulton county, said she was investigating false statements made to legislative bodies in georgia. well, that's rudy giuliani. he went before committees saying there were 10,000 dead people voting and suitcases of fraudulent ballots counted in georgia. he knew they were lies and said them anyway. if you lie to the public and the press, it's distasteful but not a crime. you can spew whatever you want in front of four seasons total landscape, but you can't do it in front of committees in georgia. it'll get you up to five years in prison. i think rudy giuliani is the one most likely to be indicted in georgia of anyone in trump's inner circle. >> "new york times" congressional reporter, luke broadwater, and state attorney for palm beach county, florida, dave aronberg, thank you, both, very much for being on this morning. still ahead on "morning joe," how former president trump is using the search of his

mar-a-lago property to raise millions of dollars. plus, a scathing rebuke of the cdc from the agency's own director. we'll explain that. and how a fatal flaw in one of russia's key weapons has slowed its invasion of ukraine and killed its own soldiers. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. especially when you have metastatic breast cancer. when your time is threatened, it's hard to invest in your future. until now. kisqali is helping women live longer than ever before when taken with an aromatase inhibitor or fulvestrant... in hr+, her2- metastatic breast cancer. kisqali is a pill that's proven to delay disease progression. kisqali can cause lung problems, or an abnormal heartbeat, which can lead to death. it can cause serious skin reactions, liver problems, and low white blood cell counts that may result in severe infections. tell your doctor right away if you have new or worsening symptoms, including breathing problems, cough, chest pain... a change in your heartbeat, dizziness,

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response. dr. rochelle walensky says, in our big moment, our performance did not reliably meet expectations. >> we learned some hard lessons over the last three years. as part of that, it is my responsibility, the agency's responsibility, to learn from the lessons and do better. >> reporter: throughout the pandemic, the cdc has been blasted for shifting guidance over masks. >> kind of just laughed because it was like two weeks ago, i feel like they just got rid of it. >> reporter: testing. >> it seems like you all don't talk amongst yourselves. >> reporter: and other recommendations. >> why is the guidance so confusing? >> thank you for the opportunity to clarify. >> reporter: the agency's external review found public guidance had been confusing and overwhelming. cdc leaders rotated out every few months. important data for inexplicably released too late to inform federal decisions. the changes now include a new executive council, a new exwety equity office, and a streamlined

website. walensky asked the cdc to be granted new powers, including mandating that local jurisdictions share their data. >> our government agencies weren't designed to manage a once in a century crisis like this. i think, while many of them performed admirably, there is no question in my mind that these agencies could have done better. >> reporter: the course correction comes as federal officials face criticism over the monkeypox vaccine rollout. new concerns about polio, just the second instance of u.s. community spread in 43 years. last week, health officials announced that polio had been detected in new york city's wastewater. >> be sure your children are protected because this is a very, very serious disease. >> reporter: a polio vaccine clinic opening in rockland county, new york, an area where the vaccination rate is as low as 37%. >> i may have gotten it as a child, but i wasn't sure about my records. that's why i came. >> nbc's gabe gutierrez with the report. guys, yes, this was a once in a century phenomenon, the

pandemic, but that's why the cdc is there. in theory, it is prepared for something like this. the messaging was confusing over time. remember people were spraying groceries at first, if you go back. leaving them in the garage. we didn't know how to behave. the 6-foot thing felt arbitrary. the message this time from director walensky is we will be better prepared for the next one. let's hope that's true. >> well, we didn't know what to do. >> we learned a lot. >> at the time, we had a president who was saying -- >> who made it worse. >> -- nothing to see. move along. one person coming from china. don't worry about it at all. we had, you know, government agencies that botched it at the very beginning. you certainly can blame them for botching the tests and the communications. obviously, they were working under difficult circumstances with a president who wanted to pretend that it was going to all just go away. but the problems actually continued, even after donald trump, mika, especially in the

area of communication. some things just didn't seem to make good sense. covid is now with us. a voice i always listened to throughout, dr. scott gottlieb. he talks now about this wall of immunity we have built up as americans. now, you know, people, if they're vaccinated, if they are boosted, they'll get covid, may get sick for a couple days, but for the overwhelming majority of americans, it's something now that we live with. unfortunately, over a million americans have died by this. >> yeah. >> but it is now something, at this point, we live with. >> it was incredibly frightening, the first year or two of covid, when we had -- remember, our entire show was dedicated to 100,000 dead. you think of how many have died since. it's taken a few years for the

world to get its arm around this. a lot of conflicting information. i think, now, we're in a situation where, as you said, joe, it is a little bit different. there are some people where masking still matters. they need to do it. and there are some people who will never put a mask on. i think that's where we're at. but, you know, even kids going back to school now are going back to a little bit more normality, and we can only hope that that continues. >> and that's absolutely critical. there's no doubt, the fda in many ways, the cdc, other government agencies, failed miserably in 2020, the beginning of 2020, when this began. and so we moved through it. let's just learn from our mistakes and prepare for the next one. i want to look at another new poll that shows democrats maintaining a slim lead over republicans for november's midterm elections. in the latest survey from morning consult and politico,

46% of registered voters say if midterms were held today, they would vote for the democratic candidate. 42% would back the republican on the ballot. there is a 2% gain here for democrats since june, and a 3% gain since april. president biden's approval rating is also showing signs of life after months of declining. in the latest poll, 42% of voters gave the president a positive grade. that's up two points, though, from judge, but still below his 45% approval rating in the spring. >> whenever i brought home 42s to my parents in certain subjects, willie, they were very excited. but biden, you know, you ask democrats, would they rather joe biden be in the mid 30s or the low 40s, they'll take the low 40s any day of the week. the generic ballot test is always tight. it is still tight. if history is an indication, though, republicans usually do

well if a generic ballot test is tied going into an election. it's still early. a week is a lifetime in politics, and we're three months off. >> you rounded the 42 up to a 60, solid d-minus, and everybody's is happy. all set. >> a gentleman's d in alabama, that's me. roll tide. >> the president of the national action network and host of "politics nation," rev, great the see you. let you talk a little of the polls, where democrats stand now a couple months ahead of the election. some of those positive numbers for the democrats on the generic ballot test, i assume, have to do with people looking at a party in the republicans who are standing behind an attempted coup on january 6th. now, going against the irs and fbi agents. not a sensible message for sensible voters. >> no, in many ways, the

democrats going up in the polls is as a result of republicans working on their behalf, more than anything they are doing. what they have to be careful about is the things that their base is concerned about. one of the things that we've been dealing with the last several days is the fact you have to have a balance between gun violence and police reform. i as the president of the national action network has been in conversation with the white house and civil rights leaders. because this is a problem that is on the ground every day that's not in the headlines that can affect turnout. if you don't deal with the biden administration, who i feel is sincerely trying to deal with, gun violence and the fact that you have in some cities police just saying, "i'm not going to be police anymore if you do certain things," but, on the other hand, you don't deal with the request for police reformwe

raised during george floyd and other issues, if you can't strike the balance, turnout goes out and polls are misleading. the 40% something doesn't show up for whatever reason. where is the balance? the fact we're seeing scores of people being killed every weekend, and it is no longer making the news. on the other side, you have the quest for police reform. a week ago today, i was doing a eulogy in atlanta for a young lady who police forgot to close the back door when they arrested her, when she was having a mental episode. fell out the car and died. how do you strike the balance? that's something that the white house is really working on with a lot of us, trying to find out how to do it. i think they're sincere. the question is whether we get there. >> guns is one of the many issues, reverend, where democrats try to paint republicans as being extreme and out of touch and out of step with where mainstream americans are. we haven't seen president biden get much of a boost yet in the

polls. white house not worried. they point to head-to-heads to show he is up on trump and desan desantis. midterms are coming. democrats are getting a boost in a lot of race, particularly the senate. in wisconsin, mandela barnes opened a 7-point lead on ron johnson, one of the biggest supporters of trump and his big lie. there seems to be, democrats i'm talking to, a sense of optimism here. they feel the wind is at their back to hang on to the senate. what is your concern? can they do this? how much are they being benefitted by republicans who are being out of touch and extreme? >> i read it the same way you do. they feel there is a wind to their back, but that is also when you can make mistakes, when you depend more on the wind than you do your legs. you keep running hard on the ground. the fact of the matter is, with all of this crainess that appears to be on the republican

side, their base will be energized to come out. whether we think people are right or wrong, crazy or not, they feel that it was wrong, some of them on the republican side, to raid president trump's house, even though many of us feel that it was overdue. they're going to come out. what makes your crowd come out? you have to deal with turnout. turn on comes before turnout. you have to give people something to vote for. i think barnes is a great chance in wisconsin. you also have got to pick up and maintain other seats. we're at a 50/50 tie in the senate. you have to maintain and add, otherwise, we're going to be in the same tie-breaker that we were before. that's why we didn't get the john lewis bill. that's why we didn't get the george floyd bill. those are things that, on the base of african-american voters and others, are saying, what did we get? the top items we wanted we did

not get. how do we get it now? they've got to convince many voters, especially in the base, the way you get it is you have to help us deliver more states. >> rev, let's talk about the balance between supporting our law enforcement officers and public safety and police reform. my gosh, the news we hear on crime is all bad. friend of "the new york post" today, a dad, a husband, beaten to death in the early morning hours, a cap driver in new york city. just dragged out of his car and beaten to death by a mob. we were talking last night with a family member who is going out to the west coast, just the horror stories being told by what's been experienced out

there. public safety issues just beyond the pale. in philadelphia, people are just getting gunned down right and left. people of color mainly. at the same time, police officers are just saying -- and people can be pissed off when i say this. you know it's the reality. police officers are saying they've just had enough. they've had enough. they're not going to take risks that could have them landing in jail. that's how they're thinking, all right? don't tweet at me, people. that's how they're thinking. now, in philadelphia, police officers like teachers, like air traffic controllers, like pilots, leaving their jobs in droves. people are quitting left and

right. you have anarchy in not just parts of that city but across america. i know people give me these statistics, and i don't want to say the stats are b.s., but they give me these statistics that say, oh, it is safer now than it has ever been. okay, maybe it is. all i know, rev, is i hear from people of all political persuasions, from liberals, progressives, conservatives, how dangerous their communities have become. and you have to go to far too many funerals of people who have been killed by ever-increasing violence. how do we balance it? how do we tell law enforcement officers we need you? we need you keeping us safe. again, it's people of color who are disproportionately impacted by this crime wave. at the same time, champion police reform. >> i think what you raise is

exactly the problem. i think this is what the biden administration has been wrestling with. like i said, appears to me they're sincere. that is, we've got to make it clear that not only are we seeing people in the black community victimized by police, they are the main victims of this crime. you can't cry at the funeral of someone that has been killed by police, funerals i do, and not cry with me at the funerals that are sometimes much more people that are killed with gun violence. we need proper policing. so the balance must be how we come together. i think we have to do it, whether we back into each other or come forward with an embrace, when we come together and say, how do we reform policing without removing the fact that we need police there to deal with this gun violence and they cannot be just standing

there, being looked upon as the enemy but working with the community. working with community groups and people on the ground. people are suffering. i hear every day people saying, yes, rev, and i agree with you about the girl that was killed in atlanta, but they broke in my house or my neighbor got shot on the corner. what are you going to do about that? if we really care about people -- i'm not talking about the ivory tower elitists that never are on the ground -- if we really care about people, we care about grandma, who is afraid to walk to the corner, or the worker that is trying to get on the subway in new york or in chicago with the cta, who is afraid they'll get shot on the subway, as much as we do about police reform. you cannot segregate your concern for the black community. you have to do it all or you are insincere about all. >> reverend al sharpton, thank you very, very much for being on this morning. well said. coming up, admiral james

stavridis joins us on the state of russia's invasion of ukraine nearly six months in. plus, a report on why russian tanks have become rolling death traps for the soldiers inside. we'll explain how a flaw in their design has rendered them almost useless on the battlefield. and as we go to break, this story out of washington. a critic of vladimir putin who was living in exile in the u.s. was found dead outside his upscale d.c. apartment building. 52-year-old dan rapoport was discovered on the sidewalk sunday in georgetown, according to police who made the discovery after receiving calls of a jumper. the latvian-born businessman left russia in 2012 over his support of dissident navalny, and settled into a home in washington. in 2016, he sold the home to

jared kushner and ivanka trump. no cause of death has been released, authorities say. they do not suspect foul play. we'll be right back. an amusement park is like whooping cough, it's not just for kids. whooping cough is highly contagious for people of any age. and it can cause violent uncontrollable coughing fits. ask your doctor or pharmacist about whooping cough vaccination because it's not just for kids. ♪ it wasn't me by shaggy ♪

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46 past the hour. turning now to the war in ukraine, where deadly russian strike rocked the northeastern city of kharkiv. at least six people were killed and 16 others injured when russian missiles hit a dor matory in the second largest city. the number of casualties is likely to go up as rescue workers scour the debris. president volodymyr zelenskyy called the attack, quote, a vile and cynical attack on civilians. this is the second attack in kharkiv in the past 48 hours. on tuesday, russian rockets hit five of the city's nine districts. joining us now, former nato

supreme allied commander james stavridis. he is also msnbc's chief international analyst. admiral, this along with the reports that we've been discussing on the show over the past week, about ukrainians making possible gains or action inside crimea, which was, of course, annexed by russian, stolen by russian back in 2014, where does the balance of power stand right now? >> let's just step back. we're at this for six month months now, mika, as you know. joe was talking about a gentleman's d. that is the highest grade you can give the russians. they've been miserable at so many efforts of this. their goal of conquering this entire country has simply failed. that's why you're seeing events as you just described in places like kharkiv, second largest city. attacks against civilians. another name for that, war crimes. that's what putin is reaching

for now. i think you're going to see more of that, more flailing around by the russians, not a lot of progress in their offensive in the donbas. on the other side of the firing line, where is the balance of power? i think momentum, the wind is at the heels of the ukrainians. as the rev just told us, you can't rely completely on the wind. you've got to keep sprinting and moving. but, boy, i feel the ukrainians going that way. i'll finish with this, look at these attacks behind russian lines, way behind russian lines. a lot attributed to the technology we are giving them, the high mars system is getting high marks, but we need to keep the pressure on in terms of giving the ukrainians what we need. if we do, i like their chances at this point. i would not want vladimir putin's hand of cards. >> so, admiral, obviously, put

putin has a pretty good idea of what cards he is holding right now. and it is not looking great long term. does it seem like things are going to get any better now that the attacks are coming far behind lines? i know you're always two, three, four steps ahead of us. what does six months down the road look like? >> yeah, on this one, very, very difficult to really project that far in the future, but i'll give you my theory in the case, which others may argue with. as we have been talking about, putin's burn rate, his loss of troops, his loss of equipment, you've got a segment coming up on the terrible flaws in the russian tanks. all of that, i think, is going to drive him toward a need for an armistice, a slowdown, some kind of settlement, probably six months from now this will go

into next year i would suspect. on the other side, our friend, volodymyr zelenskyy, his burn rate is the patience of the west, which is holding together quite well at this point. six months from now, we'll see. post elections in the united states in the fall, we'll see. soy think there's motivation on both sides that will hopefully move them toward at least some level of negotiation. and joe, let's recall to conclude that they have done this in the case of the grain shipments, russia and ukraine came together under the auspices of turkey, so the two sides may find ways to talk in the four to six-month range i would see. >> he mentioned one of the key reasons russian troops have been struggling on the ground as he described. matt bradley has a look at why russian tanks have become sitting ducks for ukrainian

attacks. what did you find out? >> reporter: we can file the tanks under the many, many mistakes that the russians have made in their assault on ukraine. i was one of those people who came out in the early days of this fight and said -- or before the fight started i said the russians were going to trounce the ukrainians. we badly underestimated the ukrainians and overestimated the russians, and the tanks have shocked the world. here is our report from ukraine. these case, parts of ukraine's countryside look like tank graveyards. but so many of these russian tanks died the same grisly deaths. they were decapitated, turrets blown completely off. it's because of the jack in the box defect that has turned the

banks into hearses. just look at this crater. this tank was hit, but what ultimately destroyed it was the explosion of its own ammunition. like in a t-72, which the soviet union built by the tens of thousands beginning in the '70s. it's built for a head of on attack, but the sides and turret are vulnerable. they're sitting on an exposed ammunition carousel. but when the ammunition explodes, it turns the turret into a cauldron. eventually the top pops off. the turret itself can fly high into the air like this one, which plunged back to lodge inside an apartment building. what do you think happened here? >> as for this exact tank, i think it was hit twice. first of all, it was stopped by heavy artillery. after that, it was disabled by

javelin. so this is the place where the fire started. after that, it ignited all ammunition inside. >> so the men inside were just cooked by their own ammunition? >> vaporized. >> so when they find their bodies, there's almost left. >> nothing left at all. no bones, nothing. >> reporter: the soviet designers couldn't have anticipated modern anti-tank weapons, which teach ear dive bomb approach. or drones, with simple bombs that can be dropped above. >> our army has this bomb, and this is just a copy. now we are just going to try to test how to bomb with this drone. >> once you get these going, you just fly them over tanks and drop bombs on them. >> yes, this bomb is against

tanks. >> reporter: this has led many to speculate that tanks are dead. but many say their problems are tactical. >> they operate without the support of infantry, and that's when we have such precise hits that ignite them. >> reporter: it's why they say rumors of the tank's death may have been greatly exaggerated. >> there is no substitute for a tank. there's no substitute for its firepower or its protection and the damage it can cause. >> reporter: but like any animal, today's tanks will need to evolve or die. and i've got to emphasize here, willie, the fact is that the problems with the tank, as i mentioned in the story, are as tactical as they are technical. a lot of those tactical issues were just mistakes within the rank and file of the russian military. some of their senior officers using and employing the tank on the battlefield in a way that western observers said was just

blatantly wrong and incorrect. they learned a lot of lessons from that. that's why we saw so many advances by the russian forces in the east. but they haven't been learning fast enough because of those weapons, the javelins. they're coming fast and furious. and there's already been $10 billion in just u.s. military aid, and that really has, and this has shown, has tipped the balance in favor of the ukrainians. it's been very effective. >> fascinating reporting. matt, thanks for bringing that to us. admiral, i'm curious your reaction as you watch that piece, as you have told us, so much of the material, the military material that russia has, dates back to the cold war. >> it does indeed. you know the admiral is going to say this, but take a look at the sea. you remember when the flagship of the black sea fleet blew up and sank killing 500 russians? that's a slava class cruiser. it has dozens of cruise missiles

topside around its bridge, if you will. this is like driving around in your car with five gallon jugs of gasoline surrounding you in the front seat. what do you think is going to happen? just bad design, bad tactics, bad strategy. you know, russia still has a lot of firepower and capability. but, again, vladamir putin's hand at cards not inviable at this point. >> admiral, this points to a fact that we have talked about before. it's not been great. obviously, we haven't preferred it to be this way, but since 9/11, our troops have been in battle for 20 years, pretty much non-stop until our withdrawal from afghanistan. we have learned to fight, our troops, in some of the most difficult circumstances in urban warfare, urban combat. a lot of things get worked out over 20 years, whether you're talking about equipment or

strategy. you look at the russians. it's clear they have a lot to learn. they're a third-rate military, and let's point to the chinese we're hearing may be helping the russians out, too. we're talking about this imminent invasion of taiwan. does china even have a general that's fought in a major war? >> not at all. the term we use in the profession is blooded, have your soldiers seen combat? have your generals faced a daily list of who has been killed, what equipment has been lost? not just the united states, but our nato allies who fought and died with us in afghanistan, these are deeply blooded armies. so, no. china has no capability to suddenly launch itself into combat. if you're president xi sitting

in beijing, you're asking yourself this morning, gee, i wonder if my admirals and generals are as bad as those russians appear to be, as they were all trained in the same system. they all come out of the soviet military tactics. a lot of the equipment has similarities. again, i wouldn't underestimate china's military in the least, but they have not seen the kind of combat that we have seen. that would be a factor on our side if, god forbid, we end up in a war over taiwan or the south china sea. let's hope we can avoid that. >> former nato supreme allied commander, thank you very much for your insight this morning. we'll have more on ukraine later in the show when ukrainian ambassador to the united states joins us in our next hour. plus, as we await the hearing on whether or not to unseal the affidavit, we'll look at donald trump's rhetoric on the search of his home. is it changing the minds of

voters? and how much money is he making off of it? but that isn't the only major legal story we are watching this morning. in about one hour, the person who knows the trump business better than the former president himself is set to plead guilty and agree to testify against the trump organization. speaking of testimony, what did rudy giuliani say to a georgia grand jury as he spoke to them for over six hours yesterday? we're back in one minute. 're bae ♪ ♪♪ voltaren. the joy of movement. ♪♪

it is one minute past the top of the third hour of

"morning joe." welcome back. it's thursday, august 18th. a beautiful look at the white house and a beautiful day in washington. we continue to follow the fallout from donald trump's legal dramas. signs that the justice department's investigation into january 6th is heating up. trump's former lawyer, rudy giuliani, testifies in georgia's election interference. trump's former cfo is set to plead guilty today in a case that could make him a witness in the trial against the trump organization. and a key hearing is set for this afternoon on whether to unseal the affidavit used to justify the search of mar-a-lago. we'll get a glimpse into the justice department's case involving the classified documents seized from the former president's home ten days ago. i wonder if we'll see a thing. don't think. so just a few hours from now, a

federal judge will hear arguments about that mar-a-lago affidavit. trump says he wants it made public, but the justice department is arguing against it, saying it could compromise an ongoing criminal investigation. nbc news correspondent sam brock has the latest from west palm beach. >> reporter: the pressure for the federal government to show its cards in last week's unprecedented search of former president trump's florida home now set to come to a head in a federal courtroom. even as investigators continue to sift through a trove of documents. the same judge will hear arguments from a wide-ranging group, trump's legal team, allies and media organizations, including nbc noose, who have pushed for the affidavit to be unsealed. >> we want it released, we want full transparency for the american people. >> reporter: the legal wrangling comes after an inventory of items taken was released, revealing 11 sets of classified

documents, some marked top secret. "the washington post" citing people familiar with the investigation has reported some were connected to nuclear weapons. legal experts say a release during a highly sensitive investigation would be extremely unusual. >> if there's an ongoing criminal investigation, in other words, a legitimate law enforcement purpose for keeping an affidavit sealed, most judges would defer to that. in fact, i would say all judges would defer to that. >> reporter: the justice department argues a release could cause significant and irreparable damage to this ongoing criminal damage. former vice president mike pence weighing in on wednesday. >> the american people have a right to know. >> reporter: but pence also pushing back on recent threats to the fbi. >> we can hold the attorney general accountable without attacking the rank and file law enforcement personnel. >> reporter: he was also asked if he would participate with the

january 6th attack. >> if there were any formal invitation rendered to us, we would give it due consideration. >> reporter: following a crushing primary loss for the committee's vice chair, liz cheney, trump blasting her on social media, as too angry and sick to succeed in the future. but cheney says she'll continue her committee work and fight to keep trump from a second term. >> are you thinking about running for president? >> that's a decision i'm going to make in the coming months, but it is something i'm thinking about. >> that was nbc's sam brock reporting. you know, jonathan, on the affidavit, fascinating they're talking about how they suddenly want transparency when they weren't showing any -- wouldn't release the documents before. but they want transparency now because, of course, the affidavit might show the government's hand, where the government's going with its criminal investigation and possible criminal charges against donald trump. so it sounds, you know, mike

pence is saying oh, we must release it and somebody else saying in that clip, we want full transparency. well, you know, the fbi just busted a human trafficking ring. would they have liked the fbi to have released the affidavit before that or before any of their other investigations to tip off the people they're investigating? of course not. so it just doesn't make sense now. but they're working all the angles, respect they? >> yeah, and the call for transparency from donald trump is pretty rich, considering the trump white house's m.o. when it came to investigations conducted by congress was just to say no, to not cooperate or turn over much of anything. trump himself refused to sit down for an interview with robert mueller during that probe, as well. but you hit it, they're just looking -- this is the latest effort from trump and allies to distract, to throw stuff against the wall and see what might stick. and in this case, they're trying to suggest, and this normal doj procedure, to not want an

affidavit unsealed, but they'll paint this as being fishy, hey, look, they're concealing. they don't have anything. it's a political witch hunt. you can already hear the truth social posts being written up as we speak after the ruling later today. this is, though, it is a growing concern from trump and allies, as to what may happen here. this is going to hang over mar-a-lago and the former president's orbit for weeks likely, if not longer. and this is their effort to try to score some sort of political point here, to this point, you know, they're losing this battle, even as it is rallying some on their side, and most worryingly, potentially inciting violence. >> and more potential trouble for the president in the state of georgia, where rudy giuliani testified before a grand jury looking into efforts by former president trump and others to overturn the results oh of the 2020 election there. giuliani spent six hours at a courthouse in atlanta, not clear

which questions he answered at this point. the former personal attorney for donald trump told a far-right news outlet earlier this week, he likely would invoke attorney/client privilege if asked about the former president. his testimony comes days after he was told he is a target in the criminal investigation of election interference there in fulton county, georgia, where -- so six hours of testimony. rudy giuliani has been known to say one thing to defend donald trump and then clam up when he gets in front of somebody that holds his fate in their hands. >> rudy giuliani has real problems in georgia. from the looks of it, the georgia authorities are being fair aggressive in how they're prosecuting this. so trump world just has it coming at them from so many different angles. you really would think that they would have a lot of top legal

counsel lined up, but from what i've read, donald trump has a former insurance lawyer. so it's going to be interesting to watch all of this unfold. >> well, according to a report from "the washington post," former president trump has bombarded his supporters with more than 100 emails asking for money in the wake of the search of his mar-a-lago home, averaging about nine a day, and it's paid off, with contributions to trump's pac, topping $1 billion on at least two days -- $1 million on at least two case. -- two days. it's not clear if the fund-raising boom extended to other fund-raising groups, with the rnc sending out seven fund raising pitches based off of the fbi search. it's also not clear what the

former president plans to do with the money, since leaving office, trump has raised over $100 million. but as of june, had only spent about $5 million to support candidates he has endorsed. the recent barrage of fund raising emails is reminiscent of similar tactics. trump and his team used following the 2020 election, urging supporters to donate to a so-called election defense fund. the effort raised over $250 million. but as the january 6th committee has revealed, no fund ever existed. joining us now, the co-author of that washington post report, josh dossey. thank you for joining us. this fund-raising for president trump after the search, will it continue? does it seem to be waning? it seems like he's raised a lot of money in a short amount of

time. >> mika, it's definitely waning some from last week, but in the initial days after the search of mar-a-lago, the money was flowing in. he was bombarding his supporters with all sorts of hyperbolic claims about what happened at mar-a-lago and it seemed to be getting his most loyal supporters -- it was paying off. his position was, he would ride these problems to a lot more money. there seems to be this desire from the former president to take what seems to be a legal situation and make it into a jauger naught of cash for him. >> so we learned in the january 6th hearings that donald trump and allies sucked up $250 million worth of supporter's money to a fund that didn't exist, raising questions about fraud. and now this pac has $100 million to donald trump's pac.

they spent about $5 million supporting candidates and most of the money hasn't been spent, which raises the question, what are they doing with all this money they're raising from supporters? >> you're right, he's left the money in a slush fund of sorts. they've given some here and there, but most of it he's just sat on. he's used a little bit to pay legal bills and travel. but he tells his advisers he likes having this large sum because it shows power and keeps others from challenging him. he's using a lot of these fund-raising appeals to signify i may run again, help me. but he can't use any of that money again in a normal presidential campaign, and there's lots of ways he can use it for personal benefit. he has a large amount of money he's sitting on. and he is still trying to raise

more and more every day. >> all right. "the washington post" josh dossey, thank you very much for being on this morning. >> the big grift continues. >> it does. but every email he sends is also potentially evidence, i mean, if he's lying again. who knows? >> he raises a quarter of a billion dollars, is that right, $250 million in a legal defense fund which never existed, is that correct? >> yeah, that's the numbers that we have all been seeing. this has been typical trump throughout his time, where he's a fund-raising juggernaut, so where they would eclipse other republicans, and he wasn't sharing that's what is happening now, both in that post election fund and what we're seeing here in his post presidency, after the search of mar-a-lago, he's just hanging on to the money himself. there's a suspicion he'll use it as a war chest for his own

presidential run, but questions remain and other republicans have been grumbling about it. >> and mika, using apocalyptic language to raise this money, saying they broke into my home, give me money. they're coming for you next, give me money, all caps, these emails that go out, nine a day on average according to josh and the reporters at "the washington post." which is, again, this escalation, we've been talking about all morning of rhetoric, which is that we effectively, republicans say, we are at war now, and i need your money because of it. >> it's all the talk about civil war, they're talking about the irs, lying about irs agents, the leaders of the republican party in washington, d.c. saying that the irs is coming to small businesses in iowa with ar-15s loaded. and people on other news

networks saying they're coming to kill you, they're coming to kill middle class americans. it's all, again, they're whipping people into a frenzy, which i don't know, maybe that suggests that they're desperate. is that why they're whipping people into a frenzy? is that why they're using such apocalyptic language, more now than before? i don't know, but unfortunately as we have seen, it gets people spun up and creates violence. >> yeah. the january 6th committee is absolutely watching all of this. let's bring sarah longwell into the conversation, the executive director of republicans for the rule of law. publisher of the bulwark and host of a podcast. sarah, we'll start with your latest focus group in florida. tell us about the session, what they said about whether donald trump would be their preferred candidate. >> yeah, this was an interesting group, because these were people

who did not vote for donald trump in 2016, but they did vote for him in 2020. so over the four years, they decided that they went from not being able to -- only a couple of them voted for hillary clinton. they mostly wrote somebody in or refused to vote. but they thought he was doing a good job, and they would support him going forward, although it was interesting in this group. there were also big ron desantis fans. so when we asked them a head-to-head, who would you prefer, all by one of the participants went ron desantis over trump. >> sarah, elise jordan here. have you seen a shift in the groups you have conducted with trump 2020 voters in the aftermath of the january 6th -- sorry, the january 6th hearings? >> yeah, i did. actually, one of the things that was really interesting is that prior to the january 6th

hearings, in any group, you would see do you want to see donald trump run again in 2024? at least half would say yes and there would be a lot of big donald trump fans. after the hearings started, what we saw was more -- a more muted response. there were a bunch of groups which zero people wanted trump to run again in 2024, which was really unusual, we had almost never seen that. and it was -- i would describe it less as a breaking through the january 6th committee and more of a seeping in. what you saw from the voters was a concern that trump had too much baggage, that he couldn't win. and then they also -- they're starting to look around. they're starting to look around at other people. there's a lot of ron desantis fans in this group, people like christy nome, the governor of texas, mike pompeo. so they will say, hey, we've got a lot of stars. and they also make a point that i always find interesting, it's

sort of obvious, which is if donald trump is the nominee in 2024, he only gets four years. but if it's one of these other people, they get eight years. so electability was becoming more top of mind. but it's interesting that you have been talking about the search of mar-a-lago. when we did this florida group, it was just after that had happened. and they -- one thing i want to emphasize is how skeptical these republican voters are of institutions in general, but now, specifically the fbi, the doj. they were doing a lot of, well, what about the clintons? what about obama? and so, you know, i think that in the short term, there's going to be this kind of rally around trump effect with some of these voters. i'm not sure -- obviously, we don't know what is -- what's coming down the pike and that can considerably change things. so i wouldn't overread it too

much. but it does one thing for trump that he wanted. these voters were drifting a little bit and they were starting to look around at other people. what this does is it refocuses them on him, and that's what he wanting. he wants the me, me, me, focus on me, talk about me, because he wants in the voters consciousness, he doesn't want anybody else to creep in there. that's what we were seeing in the wake of the january 6th hearings. >> donald trump raising a ton of money off the fbi execution of a legal search warrant of his house. you talked to wyoming voters, sarah, the focus group there about liz cheney. we know what voters said two nights ago about her. she lost by nearly 40 points. when you spoke to them, what did they say? >> yeah, unfortunately, you know, not a lot of liz cheney fans in wyoming. one of the things that was interesting to me about the wyoming group was, yes, they were mad about her impeachment vote. but it was also this sense, you know, wyoming is sort of a place like alaska. they have a sense of place.

people talk about wyoming values. they don't like national politics. so this idea that liz cheney had become sort of a national figure had -- was the kind of thing that was sitting poorly with the republican voters there. there had been this feeling about her a long time ago, that she was a carpet bagger from jackson, which they didn't -- they don't always consider it part of wyoming, they consider it a different place. and so, yeah, we saw where this was going. we did talk to some democrats and independents who were planning on switching over for her. that obviously happened in her home district or her home area. but, i mean, it wasn't enough. almost 40 points. >> all right. sarah longwell, thank you so much. host of "the focus group" podcast. appreciate it. still ahead on "morning joe," the ukrainian ambassador to the u.s. will be here on "morning joe," after a russian

missile attack on a dormitory in kharkiv last night. a strike that volodymyr zelenskyy called a vile and cynical attack on civilians. and we await this afternoon's hearing on the fbi's affidavit for the search of mar-a-lago. we'll speak with a lawyer who has represented client twhos have mistakenly taken home classified documents. he reveals why he's worried about potential espionage charges against a former president. up next, in less than an hour, former trump organization cfo alan weisselberg will appear in a new york courtroom to plead guilty. and promised to testify against the trump organization. but we'll explain why it still seems like he isn't giving investigators what they want. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. we'll be right back.

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former trump organization cfo alan weisselberg is expected to plead guilty today to 15 counts of fraud and tax evasion. weisselberg was previously charged with participating in a years long scheme to help top officials in the trump organization avoid paying taxes. people with knowledge of the matter tell "the new york times" as part of his plea deal, weisselberg could be called as a witness in the company's trial this october. and would have to testify about his role in the scheme. he's not expected to implicate the former president or his family if he takes the stand.

nbc news also had this reporting earlier this week. weisselberg is expected to receive a five-month jail term, but with credit for good behavior, he will likely only serve part of that sentence. >> so ken, walk us through this. >> i have a ton of this. >> i committed all of these felonies, i'll plead to them -- >> but i want touk about the family. >> and i will testify against the trump organization, but not -- will not testify against donald trump personally. seems like he's threading a needle there. what can you tell us? >> yeah, and perhaps successfully for him. i mean, five months, even less, he could do standing on his head, as the old saying goes. and he seems to have escaped this thing without giving prosecutors what they wanted, which is the testimony against donald trump himself. >> again, let me ask you this question, though. why would prosecutors, if they

had him dead to senter on all of these counts, on 15 counts, why would they give him five months? is it possible that he actually gave them some information that would help them in their prosecution of donald trump privately but said i'm not going to testify against him openly? i know this is speculation, but i just can't figure out how this guy could have skated like this, unless he had -- i mean, unless he turned on trump in some way and given them information and said i'll give you this information privately, i'll tell you where to go, i'm just not going to testify against him or his family in court. >> that's an interesting theory. i don't think we can rule it out, but my colleague, tom winter, who is an expert in this case, is under the impression that he's not giving them what they need on trump, and i think one of the reasons perhaps for the sort of paltry sense is this case that the prosecution has brought against weisselberg has been roundly criticized by sort

of tax professionals and lawyers who practice in this area, as the kind of thing a lot of companies do and it's rarely prosecuted. this hiding income through different kinds of payments, you know, to avoid paying taxes on certain compensation. it's a thing where they brought this case because they were really interested in getting weisselberg's cooperation. but, again, we should also remember, it's not insignificant if the trump organization is convicted of a crime. that could have serious repercussions for its ability to borrow money and put a crimp on president trump's real estate and business dealings. but not the prize prosecutors were looking for. coming up, republicans are targeting even more government employees for violence. nbc's ben collins joins us ahead to break down the latest conspiracy theory about the irs. "morning joe" is coming right back. s. "morning joe" is coming right back

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from coal workers to capitol police officers to fbi agents, the modern day republican party has seemingly left no stone unturned in recent years when it comes to unleashing violent rhetoric against public servants. and now there's a new target of the party's attacks, irs employees. in he cement weeks, a conspiracy theory, propagated by top gop leaders, has spread to all levels of the republican party, and it's a lie. responding to the new funding for the irs and the recently passed "inflation reduction act," republicans have united around a lie that 87,000 armed irs agents will soon come

breaking down the doors of middle class americans. in reality, most of the new funding will be put towards hiring desk workers to enforce tax laws against the highest paying americans. >> against the richest americans. >> but that hasn't stopped key republican voices from spreading lies about a federalized militia. >> are they going to have a strike force that goes in with ak-15s already loaded, ready to shoot some small business person in iowa? >> is the irs gearing up for war in our country? is nancy pelosi trying to start a nuclear war in asia? is there an effort by the national security state to stoke violence and a civil war here at home? >> those irs agents are designed to come after you, not after the billionaires and the big corporations. they're designed to come after small businesses and working families. >> they're going to go after the mom and pop, the small business

person, the independent contractor, the uber driver, and they're going to focus on basically the part of the country that don't support what the regime is trying to do. >> let's bring in ben collins, he's been tracking the spread of this theory on the internet and is with us now. one of the reasons i wanted to talk to you today about this is, i had -- which i talked about on the show yesterday too, really disturbing discussions with people i've known, one family member i've known my entire life, talking about civil war. and another, a conservative thought leader in washington, d.c. who has always been responsible, always been a small "c" conservative. we've agreed on most things. he also is talking about civil war, talking about how the united states government was not sacrosanc and could be replaced.

in both of the conversations, one of the key talking points was that 87,000 irs agents are going to be armed with ar-15s and coming to kick down their doors. this was a spectacular lie. a spectacular conspiracy theory. but i must say, most of these conspiracy theorys and lies that put federal employees at risk are spread by back people. this is being spread by the top republican in the house and the senate. and charles grassley asking, are they coming with loaded ar-15s? mitch mcconnell, what are you going to do about this, mitch? >> nothing. >> are they coming with loaded ar-15s to mom and pop houses? i think marco rubio is writing about it.

kevin mccarthy. and all this is doing, i don't have to explain it to you, and forgive the rant, i'm trying to explain why we're having this discussion right now, it's just putting more people's lives at risk, because of this conspiracy theory. where the hell did this conspiracy theory start? >> it started off in the dredges of the internet. but the difference is, between now and several years ago, all of the gop lawmakers are in on this. they're clearly fine with it. so jade helm, in 2015, this conspiracy theory that texas is about to be taken over by barack obama who wanted to take over the government permanently. he wanted to run for a third term or something. so he was getting all of these military contractors together to quietly take over texas. in 2015, ted cruz got a lot of phone calls about this, because it was on infowars all the time, it was a huge thing in militia

circles. it was finally happening, they were coming to take your guns. ted cruz went and said, you know, i called the pentagon. there's really nothing going on here, guys. don't worry about it. the difference now is ted cruz is trying to amp this up and say, the irs is coming after you specifically. the irs is part of a larger mob. and that's the difference now is those infowars ideas that used to exist exclusively on the extreme far right, the stuff on the end caps at the supermarket, that wasn't brought up in regular politics, that is the gop now. they ramp up the fear, they try to break down the law between two different ideas. for example, the fbi is, you know, is searching mar-a-lago and they're going to come after you with fbi agents. those two things coalesced into one big idea last week. it suits a narrative. they're coming after donald trump and eventually will come

after you. coming up, we'll be joined by the ukrainian ambassador to the united states. president zelenskyy says this latest strike is evidence of moscow terrorizing civilians. "morning joe" is coming right back. "morningoe j" is coming right back

man 1: have you noticed the world is on fire? record heat waves? does that worry you? well, it should. because this climate thing is your problem. man 2: 40 years ago, when our own scientists at big oil predicted that burning fossil fuels could lead to catastrophic effects, we spent billions to sweep it under the rug. man 3: so we're going to be fine. but you might want to start a compost pile, turn down the ac. you got a lot of work to do because your kids are going to need it. large out-of-state corporations have set their sights on california. they've written prop 27, to allow online sports betting. they tell us it will fund programs for the homeless. but read prop 27's fine print. 90% of profits go to out-of-state corporations, leaving almost nothing for the homeless.

no real jobs are created here. but the promise between our state and our sovereign tribes would be broken forever. these out-of-state corporations don't care about california. but we do. stand with us. ladies and gentlemen, the man himself, dr. oz. >> how many homes do you own? s n >> rich people think differently. >> steve harvey, ladies and gentlemen. that's quite a real estate portfolio. that's an online ad from the john fedderman campaign, playing

off the response of his republican opponent in pennsylvania for the senate, dr. oz. how many houses do you own? the question did come from a democratic campaign operative, as you heard oz said he legitimately owns two homes. the other ones i rent. but the daily beast reports show he owns at least ten properties that include in new jersey, florida, a 7,000 square foot country house in pennsylvania. a couple of condos in manhattan, and yes, those three properties in turkey, joe. >> yeah. >> why? >> things aren't going great. he apologized for a dust-up in a grocery store, mika. let me tell you, when you are apologizing for using the word "crude-a-te" in a campaign, first of all, i would not use the word, ever.

>> i don't know what that is. >> because i don't know what it is. is that a sport? but, yeah -- >> so, the video -- >> he's bouncing around -- >> let me explain -- >> a family feud -- >> that was from the fedderman campaign. the video from dr. oz at wegman's is turning to be very profitable for his democratic opponent. here is that video that's gone viral. >> i'm doing some grocery shopping. my wife wants some vegetables for crudite. here's the broccoli, $2. asparagus, $4. carrots, that's $4. that's $10 of vegetables there. and we need some guacamole. that's $4 more.

and she loves salsa. so salsa there, $6? must be a short an of salsa. guys, that's $20 for crudite. we have joe biden to thank for this. >> so people blame joe biden for everything. you're now blaming joe biden for your crudite issues? >> he wanted to highlight the high prices at the grocery store. what was lost on him, saying he was shopping at wegners, and he uses the term crudite, for what many call vegetables on a tray. >> you can get those things for like $7.99. where is your veggie tray? >> fedderman jumped on the fund-raising opportunity and the chance to continue his claim

that oz -- folks in pennsylvania aren't talking about crudite at all. it is pretty ridiculous. >> fedderman released stickers and continued making jokes on twitter about the gaffe. fedderman raised more than $500,000 in the last couple of days, including $65,000 off the wegners sticker alone. oz appeared to explain his flubing of the grocery store's name. >> but it does get to the factor, is dr. oz relatable to the everyday, hard-working american there in pennsylvania? >> listen, i rolled my sleeves up my whole life. when i joke about crudite, which is just talking about how ridiculous it is to put vegetables on a plate, we'll

going to work as hard as we can to fix their problems. it's what i've done my whole life. what has my opponent done to make life better for the people of pennsylvania? >> for those watching in pennsylvania, you know how particular many people are about their groceries. what happened with wegman's and wegners, can you explain that to them? >> yeah, i was exhausted. when you're campaigning 18 hours a day, i've gotten my kid's names wrong, as well. i don't think that's a measure of someone's ability to lead the commonwealth. >> i don't know if that helps in scranton when you say i can't remember my kid's names. >> i hope he at least remembered some ranch dip for all of those vegetables he claimed to buy at inflated prices. >> we'll see how it plays out with pennsylvania voters. still ahead on "morning joe," rudy giuliani spent hours in an

atlanta courthouse yesterday testifying before a special grand jury. now, the governor of georgia, brian kemp, is trying to avoid having to do the same thing. we'll bring in a report twhoer is covering that fulton county grand jury probe ahead on "morning joe." "morning joe." when moderate to severe ulcerative colitis persists... put it in check with rinvoq, a once-daily pill. when uc got unpredictable,... i got rapid symptom relief with rinvoq. check. when uc held me back... i got lasting, steroid-free remission with rinvoq. check. and when uc got the upper hand... rinvoq helped visibly repair the colon lining. check. rapid symptom relief. lasting, steroid-free remission. and a chance to visibly repair the colon lining.

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russian forces carried out several strikes in the port city of odessa yesterday. ukraine's emergency services said several people were injured as russian rockets hit numerous residential buildings. according to the agency, a resort and multiple private buildings were destroyed in the attack. the city is a key point for the export of ukrainian grain to other parts of the world. this comes after a russian strike against a northeastern city of kharkiv, at least six people were killed and 16 others

injured when russian missiles hit a dormitory in the second largest city. local officials say the number of casualties is likely to go up as rescue workers scour the debris. this is the second attack in kharkiv in the past 48 hours. on tuesday, russian rockets hit five of the city's nine districts. joining us now, ukraine's ambassador to the u.s., oksana markarova. thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. what is the latest in terms of casualties and strikes, russian strikes in ukraine? do you know more? >> good morning, good morning, yes, it is a sad day in ukraine. and we know that more than seven people were confirmed already that are dead. but as you said at the beginning, it is difficult to say yet because still the firefighters and all of the rescuers are trying to -- to see

how many people have been there. and unfortunately, this is what we see, 176 days everywhere. so in kharkiv in odessa. but equally in so many places which russia attacks during this war. >> so can you speak about the movement and the actions that have happened inside of the crimea in the crimea area? is that ukrainian action? >> as we head, we are confirming everything that our military forces put out publicly. we do not have any information yet from our armed forces. but as i previously said a number of times, you know, we will be defending ukraine everywhere. we will be defending ukraine within our internationally recognized borders and as soon as we have more information, we'll be able to share it. but again russians could not feel safe anywhere in ukraine because they are the invaders

and they are the ones that are killing and torturing and raping our people everywhere, where they are on our sovereign territory. >> madam ambassador, you could give us the latest in terms of what ukrainians still need toward to continue with this for the long haul? >> well, it has been the same since -- actually before the war and since the beginning of this phase of the war for sure. we need the older weapons that our partners an the united states could provide us with. all of the security assistance is very well appreciated and everything we received to date we're using very responsibly but very effectively, too. we need more, because the enemy is not stopping and they are much bigger and very brutal. we need all of the international support. you see the situation that happens with the zap oreesha

plant. and we really welcome the statement of countries including the united states, calling for russia to immediately leave the plant and seize any type of activities there to give it back to ukraine so we could de-mine it and get out of the personnel from it because it is very, very dangerous. but we also need all of the support, the economic support to ukraine as well as sanctions on russia. again, i know it is a lot to ask but it is the same fight for democracy, we're fighting for this 176 days and also for eight years and it is a national security priority for all of us who believe in democracy. so hopefully we'll continue an increased support we'll be able to not only to free and defend ukraine, but also to clearly show that democracies can defend

themselves. >> ambassador, there is news crossing the wires as we speak that president zelenskyy has met in lviv with erdogan. what could you tell us about this meeting and what potential role could erdogan play in bringing some kind of peace deal about? >> well, again, we appreciate any assistance of all of our friends, allies, neighbors, whatever they can provide. and clearly the black sea crane deal which was made possible through the engagement of president erdogan and also the u.n. secretary general, which of course we really hope that russia will adhere to, but they have started shooting at odessa less than 12 hours after we started shipping the grain. nevertheless, our grain under attack will always act in good faith and will always try to not only defend us but also help all

other countries, we understand how important it is for all of the countries in the middle east and northern africa to get the agricultural projects that they use to buy from us. so again, we will explore as we did for the past eight years defending our country but we will explore any possible diplomatic solution and any possible resolution without compromise on the territory and integrity. >> ukraine's ambassador to the u.s., oksana markarova, thank you for that update. we appreciate it. and it is exactly the top of the fourth hour of "morning joe." right now, 9:00 a.m. in the east, 6:00 a.m. out west. and we have a lot to get to this hour. we're just four hours away from a hearing to determine whether to unseal the affidavit federal investigators used to justify a search warrant of mar-a-lago. we're getting a