chief in london, ontario. because he is going after somebody who spotted a trans person on -- this is not -- this is a strategy. this is an infrastructure that is based entirely on harassment, because they've given up on democracy. i want to -- thank you for coming in this morning to talk to us about this. particularly worrisome organist allen. ben collins, nbc news senior reporter. straight ahead, the latest on the war in ukraine as russia's invasion enters month number six this week. plus the latest on the investigation involving the former president and their effect on the upcoming midterm elections. another hour of velshi begins right now. >> good morning. i'm ali velshi. it's sunday, august 21st. it's day one 79 of russia's war in ukraine. a war that none of us imagined

would still be unleashing deadly devastation six months after it began in february. vladimir putin sure didn't. he planned a three-day invasion to take the capital city of kyiv and depose that countries duly elected president. the russian president also plan on preventing the expansion of nato instead the alliance has never been stronger. it's a to admit to new members. finland and sweden. nordic nations that have hissed -- a history of being unlined and would share an 800 mile land border with russia. putin's war of choice is also stated multiple humanitarian crises. the most visceral of which is the flood of people who are trying to escape the deadly violence. the united nations high commissioner for refugees has recorded more than 6.6 million ukrainian refugees across europe. more than 3.8 million have registered for some sort of temporary protected status to remain in the countries that they have led to. another major humanitarian crisis is on hunger.

due to ukraine's role as the bread basket for dozens of nations. russia's naval blockade in the black sea has prevented ukrainian grain from entering the world marketplace. and that's led to soaring prices and rampant hunger in nations that are reliant on it. only a handful of green shipments including four this morning have been allowed to proceed through a very fragile deal that's been brokered by turkey and the deadly and destructive fighting continues. although essentially no significant crowned has been lost or gained by either side for most of the summer, even as both sides continue to suffer heavy losses. russia is now in control of the eastern donbas region over here. which consists of the regions of donetsk and luhansk. in addition to the tracked of ukrainian land that stretches along the southeast of the donbas to crimea. russia also remains in control of the separation nuclear power plant which is seen sporadic and dangerous fighting in and around the facility for much of

the war. that includes russian michelle attack yesterday in which ukrainian -- hit a residential area that's not far from the plan. ukraine says russia may also be planning a military operation at the plant and plans to divert the power that's created by the facility to crimea and russia as opposed to ukraine. although crimea is technically part of ukraine. in crimea, russian officials say that a ukrainian drone struck a building near russia's black sea fleet headquarters yesterday. this is the latest in a series of ukrainian counterattacks on russian assets in crimea. remember, russia illegally invaded in annexed crimea in 2014. it's remained orbital-y away from the fighting until now. it's served mainly as a vital staging round and resupply aside from russia's attacks to the north of it. nbc news is correspondent just lederman is in dnipro ukraine. josh, what's the latest that you're hearing about these

ukrainian counterattacks into crimea? >> hey ali. ukraine's government is still being somewhat coy about their level of involvement in this string of attacks that we've seen now in crimea. russian occupied territory that was thought to be beyond ukraine's ability to strike militarily. but in the last couple of days, top ukrainian officials have been showing a little more like about what they're doing there and the fact they expect more ukrainian-backed strikes in crimea with some advisers to president zelenskyy making clear that this is part of an ongoing campaign to demilitarize the crimean peninsula and eventually to liberated. president zelenskyy saying in an evening address that he can feel the liberation of crimea in the air. that he does not expected to be occupied in the future. that is something that the ukrainian government is really focusing on as they prepare on wednesday to celebrate their independence day. which happens to coincide with

the six month anniversary of this war starting. it's a somber day, it's also a day where ukrainians are hoping to be able to rally around their country. in the sense of patriotism here. but at the same time, president zelenskyy's warning pretty ominously that they expect potentially vicious attacks by russia on that day to try to dampen the sense of patriotism among ukrainians and to remind them, six months of this war, ukraine still remains vulnerable to the military of russia pretty much anywhere in this country. at the same time, we are hearing about some needs that the ukrainian military has now as this war drags on into six months. becomes a grinding war of attrition. and the needs are not simply the heavy weapons, the himars, the rockets are even talking about for so long. according to ukrainian officials as well as civility and so we've been speaking to, the country is now running low on some much more basic

supplies. things like uniforms, boots, helmets, night vision goggles as well as medical equipment and even mres. food for their troops. we spoke with a doctor in odessa who was using a donated supplies including artificial long ventilation devices that are saving the lives of civilians as well as troops being intern on the front lines. who says we don't have enough of the stuff and we're also running low on things like turning gets, bandages, painkillers for wounded troops. we also weren't able to see a military surplus shop in odessa where people were showing up and buying clothes, uniforms off the rack to than used to clothes troops who are serving on the frontlines. it's an indication of the fact that ukraine did not necessarily anticipate this war was going to be as large as it is or last as long as it is and is now struggling to keep their troops supplied of a need to continue fighting as the war extends more than six months

ali. >> josh, thank you. i know that you have had a conversation with my next guest coming up. alex and -- josh waterman for us in dnipro ukraine joining me now on the phone from ukraine is a retired -- alexander vindman. he's the former director for european affairs of the national security council. he's an expert on ukraine actually from ukraine. he's a senior adviser to -- author of the important book here right matters an american story. you first heard of lieutenant colonel vindman when he blew the whistle on donald trump's attempt to shake down of the ukrainian president, volodymyr zelenskyy. which led to donald trump's first impeachment and cost lieutenant colonel vindman his career in the military. colonel, good to see you. thank you for being with us. it's good to talk to you. it's bad to talk to you actually. you and i have been talking since the days before this war. and we're six months. and the good news is that there are still -- there still no success on the part of a russian six month and because they thought it would

take them three days -- the bad news is everything that josh just said. ukrainians are still in a stalemate and they're running low on some supplies. >> yes, thanks. hi, ali. i think typically when war starts there is a great deal of war optimism. the russians had -- they thought they could win this war in three weeks. ukrainians couldn't possibly planned for all the contingencies on a six month war, major conventional war. and of course, supplies are going to run low. some of that being to replenish their artillery summits coming in. one of the reasons i'm here is a very practical solution to all -- western equipment that is coming in here, there is no way to service it. right now, it's being serviced 1000 kilometers away from the front. in poland, in romania. one of the things that we can offer is starting to sort of -- bringing the western technicians in to maintain the equipment. bringing the western parts

closer. you can't retake. you can conduct an offensive on 1000 kilometer line of communication. at minimum, you need to get that downtime for equipment that's broken down two hours and days if you're going to sustain any kind of war, let alone an offensive. but yeah, there is going to be more challenges emerging. as we go into the fall and winter, it's going to get colder. equipment is going to break down. they're going to burn through -- winter equipment that many of them didn't have when this war started in february. they're going to need to figure out how to deal with energy shock and russia's going to complicate them by taking down nuclear power grids. going after gas storage facilities. this is going to get much, much harder. the one thing i can tell you pretty clearly, -- then down here for more than a week. russia's not going to be able to make significant gains. they're going to do more damage, they're gonna punish the population but this is a will

for these people and you've seen it when you are here. to hold their ground, to liberate her territory is absolutely amazing. russia has no chance in achieving it. in securing ukraine. they have no strategic plan for victory. the best they could do is hold on and inflict punishment and see if they can wear down the ukrainians, see if they can wear down their resolve and see if that's a way to get better terms for negotiations. >> you making instant point. because russia had three goals. they were going to be nazify ukraine, which wasn't not sulfide. they were going to stop the spread of nato, which they have absolutely failed and had the opposite effect. so now there is the one remaining coal. and that is to take control of donetsk and luhansk. at the moment, they got control of most of it. does that become the basis of a negotiation? i spoke to somebody in lviv yesterday who said the concessions are still a very bad word around ukrainians who are determined to win this war.

so what does this look like over the next few months to you? when russia took over crimea, they had a sham referendum which that already there wanted to join russia. that's how people think luhansk of the nests are going to go. >> my assessment for being here on the ground and talking to the whole host of leadership is frankly, the ukrainians have taken the punishing losses at the level -- it's going to be hard for them without significant additional u.s. support, additional fires to retake major amounts of territory. with a potentially can do is they can continue to isolate a place like kherson by destroying bridges. keeping that place unable to be re-supplied. with western fires, himars, we can make it untenable for the russians to hold on like it was around kyiv. to force the russians to

withdraw. i think there's legitimate scenario where they might be able to liberate kherson. in terms of the battlefield. i don't think there's going to be a great deal of movement on any side. maybe the moral and strategic victory and kherson could start to make the russian troops to collapse and fall back on ground. they might be able to hold. but there is no real prospect for a negotiated solutions. there is no tolerance from the ukrainian government. there is no tolerance from the ukrainian people. as a matter, fact the people i talked to are saying while crimea was not in place earlier in this war, they were going to commit the topic aside. now there is a thought about we're going to fight until -- there is no plan for it. there is no way to get. they're boring a fight until we liberate it. >> that's amazing -- >> the moral and fighting fatigue has not sudden among the ukrainian people. but do you worry that it has said in elsewhere. including in the u.s..

>> i think that's exactly right. -- moving logistics faces forward you could do that through the commercial sector through kind of contractors. doesn't require boots on the ground, doesn't break the threshold there. the russians are not gonna be able to defeat it. i'm also here for two other reasons. one is to get a better assessment of what's going on. provide better policy advice -- also bring attention back to -- critically important war with the ukrainians are fighting not just for their own freedom, for their own homes but they're fighting for kind of the order that allowed the u.s. to prosper since world war ii. the russians are trying to racket. ukrainians are fighting for it, bleeding for it. i just want to see if i can help remind american public that there is -- this is a very important war with huge stakes. if russia wins, u.s. is enormous peril. ukrainians, i think we have some breathing room.

we have a way to kind of converge democracy around democratic values. and keep making progress to a more democratic world. with the ukraine, we will be in a world of trouble. >> you are making that point long before there was a war in ukraine and before most americans knew anything about this. you continued to and it did cause to your career in the military. we thank you for your service once again. retired lieutenant colonel alexander vindman is the former director of european affairs for the national security council meanwhile after just one week after a congressional delegation a visit to taiwan, another elected american official has just arrived this morning. in the capital, taipei. indiana governor eric holder is the latest politician from the united states to visit the island nation in defiance of china which has pressured and warned american officials from making such trips. in a tweet governor holcomb turned his visit --

an economic development trip. earlier this month how speaker nancy pelosi became the highest ranking american official to visit taiwan in decades. her response prompted china to perform military drills around the region, sending warships, missiles and planes to war in taiwan. we'll stay on that story. coming up on velshi, former president trump is no stranger to a lawsuit. or even fbi raid but this criminal vacation in georgia is unlike any of the other inquiries. plus, a brand-new nbc news poll shed some light on how the american public feels about these ongoing investigations. spoiler, they're in favor. spoiler, they're in favor. spoiler, they're in favor. having a good time. so to help you remember that liberty mutual customizes your home insurance, here's a pool party. look what i brought! liberty mutual! they customize your home insurance... so you only pay for what you need! ♪young people having a good time with insurance.♪ ♪young people.♪ ♪good times.♪ ♪insurance!♪

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his entire life or just out of the reach of the long arm of the law. now the former president finds himself at the center of several criminal investigations all at once. and while you may be familiar

with most of them, one of those inquiries has faded into the background. it involves an array of fears from the former disgraced twice impeached insurrectionists former president to his personal lawyer, is one sitting senator, a governor and even an acclaimed rapper. it centers around a plot to overturn a states presidential election results. normal times, this would be the biggest most scandalous story out there. these aren't normal times. we live in a world of insurrections and fbi searches of a home of a former president let me refresh your memory on georgia's election investigation. fulton county district attorney fani willis can convene a special grand jury into the efforts of donald trump's and his allies to reverse joe biden's election win in georgia the investigation -- zeroing in on several members of trump's inner circle his former personal attorney, rudy giuliani. every villain needs a trusty

little sidekick. and that was giuliani. to trump. the former mayor of new york and failed presidential candidate himself won around georgia, peddling election conspiracies while trying to find votes. that simply weren't there. giuliani stood before georgia lawmakers on several occasions, claiming to have evidence of widespread voter fraud. which he did not. he claimed dominion voting systems machines flip thousands of votes in biden's favor for which he is being sued by dominion. he spread a theory that illegal ballots have been stashed in suitcases under a table at a ballot tabulation center. he claimed there was rampant underage voting. even voting from the grave. all of which are investigated and largely debunked. giuliani never found those votes for donald trump. he did, however, has his law license suspended the city new york. and now giuliani is a target of georgia's ongoing inquiry which means he could be indicted depending on how the investigation develops. giuliani was subpoenaed by the fulton county da, willis, and

spend -- six hours with a grand jury on wednesday. not clear what was said in those closed-door meetings. next, we've got the republican senator, lindsey graham of south carolina. like giuliani, a lawyer by training. a federal judge doesn't eyed lindsey graham slides them to escape a subpoena. and now senator graham is on track to appear in a closed-door session before that's very same green jury in atlanta on tuesday. da willis is investigating a pair of postelection phone calls that senator graham made to georgia secretary of state, brad raffensperger. raffensperger said graham pressed him about whether he had the power to reject certain absentee ballots which raffensperger so -- interpreted as -- some very legally cast votes. senator graham's lawyer say he was well within his rights to discuss election processes with raffensperger and that he made those calls in his then role as chair of the senate judiciary committee. georgia's republican governor

himself brian kemp is also trying to a void a subpoena from the fulton county grand jury. he filed a motion last week alleging that the probe was being pursued for quote improper political purposes he asked the court to kill a subpoena that was requiring contest -- him to this violent of this month. but governor kemp is not in the same boat as giuliani in graham. kemp actually suffer the mobocracy in this instance and fended off pressure from trump to overturn the election results. the da willis even inscribed camp as a mere witness who acted honorably. it's not clear why he's fighting -- he probably does want to be on trump's bedside. something else being investigated in fulton county grand sure er the efforts by the trump campaign to create a fake list of electors to cast fraudulent electoral votes for congress for certification. the da has notified all 16 fake electors in the state, letting them know that they too are considered targets of the

investigation. not witnesses. we know from house january six committee hearings and from supportive justice investigations that giuliani, eastman, john eastman, another trump lawyer and jeffrey clark, our former just apartment official. were involved in the fake elector scheme in georgia and in other states. you probably knew about all of this. except this. kanye west. george investigators report -- testimony from one of kanye's former publicist who allegedly pressured election worker were eager to learn more about this particular aspect of the case but now we've reached the head honcho. former president of the united states. the first and most committed -- and across the country. he himself spread countless lies and conspiracies about election fraud. but the grand jury is undoubtedly most interested in that notorious phone call. >> so look, all i want to do is

this, i just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have. >> i just want to find 11,780 votes. donald trump is not been summoned or subpoenaed by the fulton county da. this investigation is still pretty young. da willis does not have the same limitations as the department of justice. because she's operating under state laws. i guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens. were delayed when the new kid totaled his truck. timber... fortunately, they were covered by progressive, so it was a happy ending... for almost everyone. i have moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. now, there's skyrizi. ♪things are getting clearer♪ ♪i feel free to bare my skin♪ ♪yeah, that's all me♪

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on miro. man 1: have you noticed the world is on fire? record heat waves? does that worry you? well, it should. because this climate thing is your problem. man 2: 40 years ago, when our own scientists at big oil predicted that burning fossil fuels could lead to catastrophic effects, we spent billions to sweep it under the rug. man 3: so we're going to be fine. but you might want to start a compost pile, turn down the ac. you got a lot of work to do because your kids are going to need it. nbc news wall street journal

poll released just moments ago shows that a majority of americans support the ongoing investigations involving donald trump and his alleged wrongdoings. according to the survey, 57% of american support allowing the investigation to continue while

40% of them want to see them come to an end. donald trump is currently tied to four criminal investigations. two of which are federal probes being conducted by the department of justice. one of those federal investigations involves his improper handling of classified records. that resulted in the fbi searching insisting documents from mar-a-lago two weeks ago. the unsealed search warrant revealed that the doj is looking into possible violations of the espionage act. during a hearing last thursday regarding the unsealing of the affidavit, related to that case, the doj told a judge to this investigation is still quote in its early stages. it's an unprecedented case that also evokes the chaos and the carelessness of the trump administration's final days. as the new york times posted quote, what is plain though is that mr. trump's have hazard handling a government documents, a chronic problem, contributed to the chaos that he created after he refused to accept his loss in november of 2020. unleashed a mob on congress and

set the stage for his second impeachment. his unwillingness to let go of power including refusing to return government documents collected while he was in office has led to a potentially damaging an entirely avoidable legal battle that threatens to engulf the former president and some of his aides. joining me now is one of the reporters on that story, katie better, she is just a department reporter for the new york times. she's also an msnbc contributor. katie, good morning to you. thank you for being with us. what's the implication here? that this was trump was busy trying to hang on to power and maybe hung on to documents because he thought he was still gonna be president? or trump was dizzy trying to hang on to power so he wasn't paying attention of documents should be released? the more north korea's view is that trump hung out of these documents for a reason that we don't know about yet. >> i think they were not going to know the reason why trump has also documents but i think -- not only was this entirely avoidable, this clash that he's

involved in now with the justice department but that he would have known what he should've done. he would've certainly known, we have reporting that there were emails being sent out by management offices all over the white house. to every single part of that building. saying this is what you need to do to return or documents to the archives. this is how you need to close up shop. and that pretty much every part of the white house, communication shop, the vice president's office. the very carefully follow this instruction. it's really hard to say that donald trump did not know what he should've done or was just too distracted because everybody around him knew exactly what to do. so there is a laboratory that i think we found in our reporting. >> you mentioned in a new york times story on august 20th, if mr. trump or mr. meadows needed a paradigm before the appropriate handling of government documents they needed to look new for the vice president mike pence's office. two of mike pence's senior aides, marc short, his chief of staff, and greg jacob, his counsel, oversaw the indexing in boxing up of all his

government papers. according to three government officials with knowledge of the work. their goal wasn't that mr. pence left office without a single paper that did not belong to him one of the officials said. i understand frugal who worked in the government that this is actually the way it was supposed to have gone. it's not a secret that you're supposed to handily or documents a certain way. >> absolutely. we also found reporting that every single member of the white house counsel's office from his very first white house counsel, don mcgahn on, also knew this was the process in the procedure. they gave presentations -- to staff alter the white house when he was white house counsel. we also reporting that the next white house counsel pat cipollone's deputy -- they were aware that donald trump's handling of documents and that his hoarding of documents in the residence in his office could become a problem. this was something that was known for a while. this isn't something new that just happened in the final days while they were chaotic and

while those days were somewhat of disaster. this is something that people both knew about in terms of proper handling of documents. and he worried about the presidents own behavior. >> katie, what's going to happen now. because we have a lot of permission about how this all went down. we're probably going to see some version of the affidavit. i assume it will be well redacted. so the things that trump world wants to come out, including possibly naming the agents or sources, is not going to happen. so what then happens with the rest of this investigation? how does it move forward? >> like so many things, this moves forward at the pace the justice department's own inquiry. the department is gathering evidence. they have gathered witnesses to monee. they're going to look at the facts and try to determine whether or not they have all of the information that they seek. it is the justice department's duty to retrieve all the information that they properly hella mar-a-lago. they need to look at the behavior of all the people they've interacted with. the lawyer is close to mr. trump.

determine whether or not this is something that leads them to the sort of work that you would -- basically to bring charges. i'm not sure that they're anywhere near that so i don't want to raise any kind of expectations. but he had the chorus and as we've seen so many times in this justice department, the department moves deliberately at its own pace. and it does not want to take any measures until it feels that the masters that it takes our ironclad. >> katie, thank you for your reporting on this, as always. katie better is the justice department reporter and the new york times. coming up, it's polarizing and it's a partisan political landscape right now. no doubt about that. doesn't mean we can't do things to fix it. stay with us. stay with us or an unbearable itch. this painful, blistering rash can disrupt your life for weeks. it could make your workday feel impossible. the virus that causes shingles is likely already inside of you.

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political republican strategist frank lutz. may feel a typical for velshi. it's really not, actually. we talked a lot of reliance on the show. but it's gravely important. we need to have conversations like the one i plan to have. you actually don't have to listen to them. you are not compelled to do that. i totally get if you don't want to. but i'm a journalist, i actually have to have these conversations. i believe that there is common ground out there and i am committed to trying to find it. so bear with me on this and please don't change the channel. seriously, just coming a chance. you can tweet me all you want afterwards and tell me that you thought it sucked. i wouldn't mind if you just listen to it. before that, i got something i know you are going to like. because this is actually one member conservatives and i actually think is one of yours to. someone velshi viewer snow very well. michael steele, he's a former chairman of the republican national committee. today, he sitting in for jonathan kaye part, as host of emmy and -- i know you wanna talk about that michael but i guess i want to ask you. you do this all the time. you're in the discussion with people who are republicans, for

democrats, across the political aisle. what do you think for the purposes of my viewers, i should be talking to dawn and frank about? >> first of, let me just thank you in applaud you for doing it. for opening that door and having that conversation because it's vitally important. there are a lot of publicans like myself, hopefully you will see this with don in frank that want to have it. so the question, it's a two part or, ali. the first is do you recognize that there is a virus, an infection, that there is a problem inside the party paula -- the body politic of the republican party? and the second is, if you recognize that, what do you think is the best course to begin to -- to lessen its impact and its influence over how the party governs itself? we are a party with right now without a platform which means we have no stated ideas. we are a party without policies

that were putting in front of the country as much as we bash biden and what he is doing. the country is saying okay, we get it, but we're in a time of inflation, we're in a time of higher prices of gas pump in on the bakery shelf. what are your solutions? i think that begins the conversation. you have to recognize that there is an element first. if you don't recognize that there is something wrong, then you are never going to fix it. i think, i would start with those two. and i know you'll hopefully you will get -- i won't say i know. hopefully you'll get on a, strike answers. >> i'm confident that i will. what are you excited about on your? show >> it's a lot. first off, filling in for my boy jonathan capehart. i had to get some attire for this one. he doesn't make it easy for us. does not make it easy. but no, we're going to be getting into a couple of good conversation with michael cohen. looking into sort of the back side of the trump world and sort of deconstructing, if you

will, the mistake around trump and his lawyers and talk a little bit about why you can't do to find it. also getting into liz cheney lobe. talk about her break a moment this week. yes, you also primary. i think some bigger things are gonna come from liz. we're going to get into whether a presidential bid or something bigger than the -- >> something bigger than a presidential bid. whole lot of democrats who had no time for liz cheney for a long time. who find her quite in freeing these days. michael cohen's always great. i was on his podcast earlier this week. which is always fun to do except he swears an awful lot. so i was actually trying to keep a straight face -- >> got my finger on the button. >> he's beautiful. all right, thank you michael good to see you as always my friend thank you. michael steele is the former chairman the republican national committee. stick around after velshi to hear more from michael as he said he's filling in for the sunday show this morning. starts of the top of the hour. at 10 am eastern. i'm gonna have the conversation when we were just talking about after a quick break.

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midterm elections. the democrats unified government could very easily slip away with some extras retaking that they will lose control of the house impossibly the senate. the coca-cola reporters are reading feature control of the senate as a toss-up. which will make it a tough but not impossible task for democrats to hang on to the majority there. senate minority leader mitch mcconnell admitted earlier this week he believes his own party might have a more difficult time retaking control of the senate they previously anticipated. >> i think the -- there is probably a gritty likelihood the house flips in the senate. senate races are just different. they're statewide. canada quality has a lot to do with the outcome. right now, we have a 50/50

senate. we have a 50/50 country. i think when all is said and done, we're likely to have an extremely close senate. either our side of slightly or their side of slightly. >> the candidate quality that he's talking about kudos on the to do with some 250 election result -- promoting the big lie primary litmus test for political success. arguably become the most alienating issue that we are facing right now in this country because of this it's become almost impossible to have meaningful debates and conversations. with people on other sides of the aisle. seems to be more difficult by the day for any of us to -- let alone trying to understand them here is the thing. if we do not try to bridge that divide, we will sabotage our free-flowing democracy and for some it's more satisfying to -- who live in our echo chambers.

i'm not one of those people. we won't make any progress as a democracy if that's how we're going to roll. in an effort to further the bipartisan dialogue i'm going to bring you a conversation with two republican voices to remind us all of the benefits of hearing from folks across the aisle. you are under no obligation to agree with anything my two guests say. i know there's a good chance that some of you may want to pick up your mode right now and change the channel. i'm asking you not to. i'm asking you to stick around. the next few minutes i hope is going to be well worth your time. if it's not tweet me like you always do. let me know. just wait until after the conversation. after a quick break, my conversation with these two people that republican congressman don vacant nebraska and the republican and political strategist and -- i look forward to seeing you on the other side. ou o the other side the other side ♪

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of nebraska, political strategist and poster. also the author of words that, work is not what you say is what people here. gentlemen, thank. you you are peak guests of. ours i'm honored to have you both. here, congressman let start with you. and why just full of ivory tower in new york media bs thinking that people are concerned about these matters? because every time we talk to an elected official, bubble can or democrats, people tell me that they don't talk about the, stuff ali, people talk about, cast the talk about race wagers. they are not concerned about

these broader implications about democracy and election denial and staff. do you have these conversations with your constituents, that i'm talking about? >> first of all, thank you for having me back on. i appreciate it, i have an irregular and i'm grateful for. that it is clear, ali than inflation and prices are the number one issues here in nebraska. but also, people want stability. they want the country to work. they are tired of the hyper partisan civil war mindset. so they are looking for people that can be conservative now values. but they also know the of to reach across the aisle and finding consensus and make the country work. but as with james madison designed our former governments to seek -- they design it so that no one faction controlled -- in areas of commonality. inflation and gas prices are 2 to 1, top issue. but also they want their country to work and they want to decency instability. and they see a lack of it. >> that is hard.

frank lots, i know you don't agree with this but after this weekend once we hit the ratings, we can look at what happened in this segment. i think some people probably switched off. but they don't think that they should. and part of it is that you make the point, you write about, where is the way we talk about things, the way things -- how we mean things and how the people here, things you are saying that if we could be a little bit more cautious or thoughtful about the way we talk, that could bridge this divide a little bit. maybe kind of sort of. >> let me give you an example. congressman is on right now talking about consensus, what the public is looking for his cooperation. he got to the right ladder, but slightly wrong. another example is that you find much more support if you talk about assistance to the poor, because that is the result, rather than talking about welfare. which is the process. the amazing thing for me is that my book was actually purchased by more democrats and republicans.

then i have more trouble talking to those on the right than i do on the, left because they left, quite frankly, often communicates more effectively because they talk from the heart, they talk with the emotion and passion. i would argue that the governing isn't working the way they talk about. joe biden ran as harry truman a genuine cooperation and compromise that he sought to govern as fdr. it is pulling numbers are the same as jimmy carter right now. but in the end, and so when you, me you mean what you say, and you do what you say. that is with the american people are looking for. >> congressman you normally talk policy when we come on, and we will do that again because we always enjoy. that that is actually my heart is. i have been with this network for six years or something like that, and i used to have republican elected members on my show all the time. we would have good, reasonable discussions. and sometimes we will have. arguments isn't as they would

evolve into fights. but they came on. that does not happen all that much anymore. you are one of a small number of people who regularly come on and have a good discussion. i want to ask you how i do better with getting more people into discussion. and whether it costs you anything to be on my show. >> ali, i think of other republicans see how they respond with me, i think you are. fair you try to get both sides with, me and i'm grateful for. that you also given the chance to answer tough questions. i've been on other shows where you can ask some tough questions and get interrupted, continuously. i think you are going to be respectful and how you do it. it is important for folks like me to come on msnbc, cnn and also try to reach out to the other side saying we are firmly sticking to our own signs on her own choir. we are not growing -- and i want folks in the middle, moderate democrats, to know that there is a hole here with me in our party. and i believe the republican party should be a party of values, party of ideas.

not focused on individuals. and i think it shows that we can win. we won 15 seats last election, with conservative principles. but the voters also want someone who is respectful, treat people with decency. they want optimism. they want restored faith that america. and i believe that our party needs to communicate that more. and by the way, i've enjoyed meeting with -- many times. i consider him a good friend. >> frank, why do we get to with. this because one of the things i hear from people, mostly on the, left that is where most of my conversations exist, is how am i supposed to have conversations with people who are fundamentally differ spectacle of white ice and four or who i might be? how do you have conversations with people, where the goal isn't going to be that you are going to agree. or the goal is necessarily going to be the you are going to defeat them in the next election. but the goal is that you are going to do with this country is based on and be a pluralistic nation in which we can respect each other's views without actually sharing each

other's views. about politics, food, religion, sexuality, gender, any of these things. >> you have to want to learn. you have to be curious. a majority of my friends, i will tweet this out, and you are going to see the same kind of partisan breakthrough. by the way, republicans complain that i'm not partisan enough. democrats complain that i am too partisan. that was on the left say that they don't really understand how they feel, and those on the right say that i reject how they feel. well, i must be doing something right if both sides are angry. let me just give you some advice. twice at the beginning of this segment, you talked about people turning this off. this is exactly the opposite message. i spent a lot of time watching msnbc. i work for msnbc for five years. and i even won the only emmy award that the msnbc one in 2001. i have been on this network. i want to hear with the left in

the right say. i want this combination. i love being surrounded by people who disagree with me. and ali, you should be promoting that. here is your chance to hear where the other side says. but to this, i wouldn't even call it the other side. here is the different perspective. if we define ourselves by republican and democrat, if we divide ourselves by the other side, then we are automatically causing this rift and this division. if i can put a little bit of solemn thought to you, all the number one reform that the public is looking for, even more than health care, even more than taxes is our democracy itself. it is under threat. it is under attack. and if we don't do a better job, maybe not agreeing with each other, but at least tearing each other out, then we are in real trouble. >> john bag, and how does the conversation go with some of your colleagues. because some of the, stuff i don't mean this will partisan, so most of the republicans are doing these days must make you crazy in the morning. >> we have hyperpartisanship on

both sides, ali. that's the thing. i get tons of hate from the left, and a lot of false accusations. the state democratic chair here calling people racist, antisemitic, on the other. side and that does not help either. it is hard to work with something they are calling me a racist or antisemitic, but that is on the level. we've also people on the right that say no compromise, and that doesn't work either. this system of government requires that we have to find areas for cooperation. areas that we can agree. if we could agree on 50% of the fixes on the border, but let's fashion legislation to get 50%. i think a half loaf of bread, versus demanding 100 percent in getting zero, that is what's going on with congress right now. we see that for the most part, there are few exceptions, both sides want 100 percent. they won't take 50%. and then we get very little to. which by the way, --

who's won with executive orders. congress is losing power because we have lost our final cooperation and consensus. and we need to have a third equal share of government. but we've lost that. >> this is a very important conversation that you have this for. another time. because we are at a time now. about whether congress can maintain its power. thank you both. we will have you both back on for this republican congressman john macon of nebraska. frank lutz is a -- bit the sunday showing for jonathan capehart begins now. ♪ ♪ ♪ donald trump lashes out. he is threatening more legal action over the fbi search of mar-a-lago. the doj faces a major deadline over the affidavit used to justify the search. to flip not to flip? the trump allies facing their own legal trouble, and g