thursday morning. "morning joe" starts right about now. that's 20 million people who can start getting on with their lives. all this means people can start to finally crawl out from under the mountain of debt, to get on top of their rent and utilities, to finally think about buying a home or starting a family or starting a business. and, by the way, when this happens, the whole economy is better off. >> president biden making the case for his decision to wipe out hundreds of billions of dollars in student debt, up to $20,000 for some borrowers. we will discuss the impact that could have on the economy and whether it strikes at the heart of the problem, the soaring cost of college. plus, today is the deadline for the justice department to submit its proposed redactions to the affidavit used to get the search warrant at mar-a-lago. we'll have the latest developments in the investigation of former

president donald trump. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is thursday, august 25th. i'm willie geist. with us, msnbc contributor mike barnicle. former aide to the george w. bush white house and state departments, elise jordan. the president of the national action network and host of "politics nation," reverend al sharpton. and white house editor for "politico," sam stein. let's dive into the story that has everybody talking right now. 43 million people in line to have at least a chunk of their student loan debt erased. as many as 20 million people could clear all of their student debt. those are the figures from the white house following an executive action yesterday by president biden. the president pushed back at criticism that debt cancellation will make inflation worse. >> by resuming student loan payments at the same time as we provide targeted relief, we're taking an economically responsible course. as a consequence, about $50 billion a year will start coming back into the treasury because

the resumption of debt. independent experts agree that these actions, taken together, will provide real benefits for families without meaningful effect on inflation. >> here's how it breaks down. borrowers who earn less than $125,000 a year or $250,000 for couples who file taxes jointly can get relief for up to $10,000. pell grant recipients will be eligible for up to $20,000. the administration also extending the pause on federal student loan payments through the end of the year. and the president yesterday announced a new repayment plan that would cap monthly payments for undergraduate loans at 5% of discretionary income. that's half the rate under most existing plans. the reaction on capitol hill fell, predictably, along party lines. >> let's just celebrate because, understand, 20 million americans

got the news today that they will never have to pay another nickel on student loan debts. >> young people, people who are trying to make end's meet, they as it is are struggling. so to ask them to be paying back their student loans right now with a difficult economy is just wrong. >> this is an unprecedented step to alleviate the burden that people are feeling. >> i think it's a bad idea. i'm sure the people who will benefit from it will love it. the question is, is it fair to everyone else? >> that's exactly what this is, a massive bailout for people who have made bad decisions and are doing very well economically. >> it is completely unfair. hard working people, they shouldn't have to pay off the great big student loan debt for some college student that piled up massive debt going to some ivy league school. >> rev, we're going to get into some of the complications with this and some of the criticism of it, but let's start with,

first of all, for president biden, this was a campaign promise, number one, and, number two, this will be transformational for millions of people in this country. >> definitely was a campaign promise, and it definitely will be a relief for millions of people. and it definitely is a step in the direction that we wanted this president to go. many of us voted for him to go. did we want him to go further? yes. will we always want him to go further? yes. but he's gone further than anyone else has gone. let's remember, when we hear the opposition party, the trump party give their objections, these are people that did exactly what they said they would not do. the whole stereotype is that these are people who want to live life and do nothing. they're reckless. they're worthless. they're not trying to lift themselves up by their bootstraps. these are people who got into

debt trying to educate themselves, be good citizens, trying to make the nation better. they aren't in debt because they were partying all night. they were going to school. society is saying, we have a responsibility to not put weights on their legs the rest of their lives because they tried to be constructive, well-educated citizens. when you compare that to how we are globally, how people are trying to educate and outrun america in terms of our educational ability, we ought to see it as an investment in raising the standards of the country and commending people that, despite their backgrounds, many of them impoverished, i want to be educated. i want to have the kind of life that maybe i can't afford but that i can make myself constructive. they ought to be aided, and joe biden did that yesterday. i wish we could have done $50,000, but i'm glad we got $10,000. if you were drowning in a hole, and somebody lifted you out,

even in part, you'd thank them. you don't say, "why didn't you bring me all the way out?" >> majority leader chuck schumer and others agree with you, they pushed the president to make it $50,000, but they'll take what they have in front of them. sam stein, how much did the president grapple with this decision? he made the promise on the campaign trail, but he does know that it is not just republicans who have criticisms of this. it's a lot of working people, democrats, independents who feel like they're footing the bill. >> right. the question is, how much did he grapple with this? a tremendous amount of grappling. >> yeah. >> this was, you know, more than a year and a half in the making. continuous disagreements within the white house. the president getting frustrated at leaks around this stuff, hearing from different stakeholders, an intense, internal debate about what to do on the policy merits. sort of out of the blue, to a degree, a quick decision.

it was classic joe biden governance in that sense. look, i think, in the end, you ended up with a product that actually goes beyond what joe biden had initially pledged. he had pledged a $10,000 relief. he's going to go up to $20,000 for pell grant recipients. on top of that, he has these reforms that cap the percentage you pay in student loan payments based on discretionary income at 5%, which could be the biggest actual policy plank in this whole package. you know, there are going to be critics here. specifically on the right and among even allied economists who say this is the wrong time to do it. we're in the midst of this inflationary crisis. also, this doesn't do enough to actually tackle rising tuitions. it could, in fact, exacerbate that. but, in the end, i think, ultimately, the politics of this probably do win out for biden, in that you see it poll pretty well. a lot of people are grateful, even those who already paid off their student loans say, yeah, this is the right thing to do.

student loans are incredibly burdensome, and people need to get out from under them. >> you know, given the divisions in this country today that exist, it's amazing that he did it yesterday. in the face of the clamor that be surround it, no doubt. the first thing we ought to really consider is completely ignore the criticisms of people like jd vance, who we saw in a clip, and marjorie taylor greene. they are preposterous in their criticisms of it. the problem would seem to me to be the base of the democratic party, the old democratic party, largely working class people, you're always going to encounter the possibility that you're going to encourage resentment among those who have already paid their loans, who have already helped their children get through school and paid off their loans. now, they're going to be saying, you know, hey, what about us? on the whole, though, you're absolutely right, $10,000, people clamoring for $50,000. elizabeth warren was clamoring

for free college for everyone. it is a moderate position when you look at it. we're going to have to wait and see. does it add to inflation? larry summers claims it'll add to inflation, but we'll see. >> i am concerned about it adding to inflation. i don't really understand the timing, necessarily, because even politically, what's the bump? what's the point in doing this right now at this specific point. i guess what i find annoying about it is that it doesn't address the higher education cartel. it basically is infusing money into a higher education system that is basically just corrupt at this point. you look at how much tuition has just skyrocketed. >> obscene. >> over the last 20, 30 years. i mean, my college tuition, it was -- it is three times today what it was 20 years ago. >> yeah. >> that is just absurd. it doesn't do -- that's not accessible for the majority of

americans. it's absolutely obscene. >> and the other thing is, a lot of these schools we're talking about have billions and billions of dollars sitting in endowments. >> exactly. >> collecting interests for generations. >> did you have student loans? >> i did not. my mom worked to pay for my college. i was lucky. >> it took me 12 years to pay off my student loans. i can still remember. it wasn't a burden, i just didn't want to pay it off. >> sounds like you. >> rev, let's look at the political side of this. the accusations yesterday that we heard of president biden buying votes, that he wants to get young people to come out and vote in the midterms, this is, for him, a good political move, you think? >> i think in the end, it could be, but there's no guarantee. i think that the safest political thing would have been to do nothing, which is why i give him credit for doing something and taking the risk. what are we talking about? we're talking about relieving debt, actual, real burden on

people. and if you actually help people and you do that because you want their vote, that might be the way the american political system ought to work. that you do something for the voters in order to get them to vote. i mean, i think there's nothing wrong. there is something right about that. it is a lot better than trying to play to their worst senses, like his opponent in the last presidential race. you actually want to earn people's vote. i think that a return to that is a good thing. >> well, there are economic, moral, even legal arguments against forgiving student debt in this way. last year, even speaker nancy pelosi said, the president of the united states does not have the authority to cancel debt. >> people think that the president of the united states has the power for debt forgiveness. he does not. he can postpone. he can delay. but he does not have that power. that has to be an act of

congress. >> that was in july of last year. a former top lawyer at the department of education under barack obama telling "the wall street journal," it is, quote, doubtful the courts will let this stand. on the economic front, former treasury secretary larry summers, among many, arguing cancelling student debt will increase inflation by encouraging colleges to raise tuition. and a former economic adviser for president obama tweeted this, quote, for roughly half trillion dollars of gasoline on the inflationary fire that is already burning is reckless. "the wall street journal" editorial board calls it a moral hazard, writing, in part, those who will pay for this write-off are the tens of millions of americans who didn't go to college or repaid their debt or chose lower cost schools to avoid a debt trap. this is a college graduate bailout, paid for by plumbers and fedex drivers. according to the latest census, fewer than half of american adults hold a college degree. the recent nbc news poll found

debt cancellation not particularly popular. 46% of registered voters say they're more likely to vote for a candidate who supports cancelling student debt. 33% said it is less likely. let's bring into the conversation columnist of "the washington post," megan mccartt l, and former treasury official and "morning joe" economic analyst, steve rattner. good morning to you both. steve, let me begin with you on the pure economics of this. what do you think this does knot economy? what do you think it does to inflation? >> first of all, willie, it'd be difficult to overstate the vastness of this program. this is a huge, huge amount of money that is going to change hands and basically be in one fell swoop of the president's pen. there aren't good estimates what the cost will be, but let's call it something in the $500 billion range. that is pure increase in the deficit and cost of the federal government, and that's roughly twice the size of the amount of deficit reduction that was in

the manchin/schumer bill just passed. in terms of the size of the spending in the manchin/schumer bill, this is larger. it is the largest, i believe, amount of money ever dispersed by an executive order. so we just have to really gasp a little bit at the scale of all of this. in terms of the economy, yes, it is going to nudge us to the inflationary side. you saw the larry summers and the jason fuhrman quotes you put up. to me, that'd not be a deal breaker. it's not ideal. we don't want to increase inflation or inflationary pressures at this time. we don't want to be increasing the size of the deficit and the size of our debt at this particular point in time. the whole point -- or one of the points of manchin/schumer was to reduce the amount of debt through deficit reduction, not to increase it. this goes in the wrong direction on that. but i think, by far, the biggest issue is the issue of fairness that you eluded to in various other conversations. half of americans who don't go

to college don't benefit from this. people like your family that worked hard, took an extra job to put their kids through college so he didn't have to graduate with debt don't get anything from this. there are substantial questions of fairness here in terms of who is going to benefit and who is going to be left without really getting any benefit from this. >> megan, your piece in "the washington post" is titled "biden's student loan fix: it's perfect for making the problem worse." there certainly are a lot of people out there this morning who feel like suckers for having worked a second job or having paid off their student loans or gone to a college maybe they thought they could afford versus one they'd have to pay off for, you know, 20 or 30 years. let's break down your piece a little bit. what's at the core of your argument against this? >> look, i agree with mr. ratner. there are a lot of reasons this is problematic. it causes fairness problems for people who worked hard to pay off debt or put kids through school without debt.

it also is going to create pressure for future such bailouts. you look at the people who are enrolling in college next year, right? they are getting the reduction to a 5% rate on their income-based payment, but they're not getting the $10,000. they are going to look at that and say, tuition is still going up. this is unfair. they are going to say to the administration, what about me? you're kind of creating this pressure to keep doing this over and over again, and it's not fixing. it is not only not fixing the problem of rising college costs, it is actually making that problem worse. so there is reasonable evidence that, in fact, subsidizing student loan debt, you know, it seems like a great idea. it allows people to say, look, you're going to be making a lot more money in the future. let's let you bring a little of the income forward and use it to pay your tuition. in the same way we do this with mortgages and car loans and business loans. but the problem is that colleges can respond to that by saying, oh, you can pay more, let me raise tuition. that has been one of the things

driving the last, you know, 40 years of tuition increases, is this ability to pay more. so by making it even easier to borrow money, the thing i said in the column is, this is kind of like trying to quit smoking but switching to unfiltered cigarettes. >> rev, what about the fairness question? the majority of americans don't have a four-year college degree, and they're saying, why am i paying for people who went to college, took out big loans, got it wiped out in tax increases, in this half a trillion dollars, potentially, that has to be spent to cover it. what do you say to that? >> i mean, i think you understand that feeling. but in the same way, i think that a lot of people would say, i'm glad to see people may not have to go through what i went through. i mean, it is kind of really tricky to say, i went through two jobs so i want everybody to have to go through two jobs. i think it is probably the more mature way to say, i'm glad people don't have to go through what i went through.

but i think, megan, where i agree with you, and i want you to elaborate, is where we put pressure on those institutions to deal with the higher tuitions and to deal with what they are doing to try to meet the hour. i happen to think the way the president moved yesterday was good in terms of direction. i wish he'd gone further. but i think that it does not address the escalating college prices or college -- the amounts they're getting for tuitions and all. i think there needs to be more focus on how we kind of bring that in. >> well, i think that this is a huge problem. no one really has a very good idea about how to control the cost of college. so what we have done continually is say, look, this is a really big problem. i know, let's increase the subsidies. and especially when you think, you know, college professors, administrators, those are key

democratic constituencies. so i think on the party, you have the pressure to increase the subsidies, but you definitely have a lot of pushback if you want to go in and say, hey, you know what? you have too many administrators. you have to cut that back. you have too many, you know, of these amenities. you have to cut them back. i know they help you be competitive with other colleges, but we can't afford to keep subsidizing this forever. kind of expecting the democratic party to find a way to do that, i think, is difficult. i think there is a reason we have dealt with this continually. what are the democratic proposals? they're proposals to put more money into colleges, not to start taking some of the costs out. >> steve, on this particular issue, and it is a tough issue, the cost of tuition at some universities, you could be spending $50,000, $60,000, $70,000 a year on tuition at the universities, some of them. do you have any ideas? do you know anyone who has any ideas on how to cap the tuition cost increases that occur at

these universities? especially, a lot of these schools get enormous sums of government money to subsidize the programs they have within the university. any ideas on that? >> mike, one of the ironies of the college tuition issue is that college tuition, as everyone here pointed out, has gone up very fast, faster than inflation, taking a higher share of family incomes for a very long time. yet, ironically, people see value in that, and they've been willing to pay for it. if you look at applications to private education, in particular, ivy league schools and so forth, which charge the highest tuitions, those applications hit record numbers pretty much every year. they've escalated at an enormous rate. people see value in this and, therefore, the schools feel that they can raise their services, raise their tuition, and that that's what people want. i think it is an important point to recognize that this program or programs like this do

encourage, in effect, more raising of tuition, because you're subsidizing the students. other than the government coming in and somehow controlling college tuition, which i'm not sure any of us, at least i would not be particularly in favor of, this is what happens. can i make, quickly, though, one other point that i've been thinking about in this context? you'll remember in 2009, we passed $75 billion of homeowner relief as part of the response to the financial crisis. as a result of that, literally the day after, a cnbc reporter started a rant that turned into the tea party. it was all over these fairness issues. it was over the question of someone who had bought a house he couldn't afford, put on too much mortgage debt, gone to disney world, whatever, and now is being bailed out by the government, versus someone who acted responsibly. i agree with what the rev said, that this is a different issue in the sense that people are borrowing this money to go to college, and that is a

responsible thing to do, in a way, but this basic issue of fairness that gave rise to the tea party, in fact, is going to be something i think we hear an awful lot about in the coming days. >> well, and you already are. megan, curious what you think about how this plays out politically. you've had even democrats like tim ryan, who is running for the senate in ohio, before the president even made the announcement, coming out against it. he knows it'd cost him votes in that state. >> this is a really interesting moment. because no one can really figure -- that i've spoken to at least, no one has a good idea of how much this is going to help the democrats. it might well hurt them. the problem is, the people that are most avid for this are kind of young, very politically engaged voters who have put a lot of pressure on the administration, successfully, obviously. the problem is, those people already vote. they're solidly in the democratic camp. they're already solidly turning out at higher rates, you know, educated voters in general turn out at higher rates than

non-educators voters. young voters don't turn out that much at all. so you have two groups where you're like, they're either going to vote for us or not come out. how many people is this really moving to the polls? i am somewhat skeptical this is going to be long-term helpful for the administration. obviously, he made it a promise. he was under fierce pressure. a lot of democrats in high-cost areas like new york were putting a lot of pressure on the president to do this. i think he eventually just said, okay, let's do it. >> we'll see how it plays out. at the end of the day, 43 million people will have a little easier time getting through their day. columnist at "the washington post," megan mccardle, and economic analyst steve rattner. fascinating conversation. thank you both for being here. we're going to talk much, much more over the course of the morning. still ahead, we will have more about student loan forgiveness. joined by the head of the naacp. also, the latest from ukraine as russia launches an attack on a train station in ukraine on independence day. we'll get a live report from kyiv. in syria, three u.s. service

members suffered minor injuries after rocket attacks. what we know about their condition, and how the united states responded to their attacks. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ight back. the women and men i served with in combat, we earned our benefits. just like people earned their social security and medicare benefits. but republicans in congress have a plan to end so-called "entitlements" in just five years. social security, medicare, even veterans benefits. go online and read the republican plan for yourself. joe biden is fighting to protect social security, medicare and veterans benefits. call joe biden and tell him to keep fighting for our benefits.

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the most epic sandwich roster ever created. ♪♪ it's subway's biggest refresh yet! "the washington post" is reporting an email sent by the national archives and records administration to former president donald trump's staff months after trump left office expressed concern about the return of documents taken from the white house and noted trump's own staff had agreed they should be returned. in an email sent to trump lawyers in may of 2021, the lawyer for the national archives, gary stern, wrote, it is also our understanding that roughly two dozen boxes of original presidential records were kept in the residence of the white house over the course of president trump's last year in office and have not been transferred to nara, despite a determination by pat cipollone in the final days of the administration that they need to be.

specifically, stern references at least two well-known documents the archives knew to be missing. correspondents between trump and north korean leader kim jong-un. also a letter from president obama. writing, quote, we know things are very chaotic, as they always are in the course of a one-term transition, but it is absolutely necessary we obtain an account for all presidential records. stern did not state specifically in the email which documents the archives thought were in the boxes, but cited the correspondence as an example of something then president trump requested just before the end of the administration. in the email sent to some of trump's lawyers but not to cipollone, stern refers to the fact that he also raised the issue with another trump lawyer, scott gast, prior to the president leaving office. we'll talk to the reporter behind that story coming up in a bit. meanwhile, as questions swirl about whether outgoing wyoming congresswoman liz cheney will pose a challenge to former president trump's expected 2024

presidential bid, new polling suggests her candidacy actually would hurt the current president more than his predecessor. in the survey from yahoo! news and ugov, if it were a two-way race between president biden and trump, 46% would back the current president. when cheney enters the mix as an independent, trump wins with 40% of the votes. 17% of voters do say they are undecided. following her republican primary defeat last week, cheney said she'd consider a presidential run. she's not said, though, whether that would be as a republican or as an independent. this was the suspicion of many people, elise, that if she ran for president trying to take down president trump, she might actually take down president biden. >> exactly. because who would be the voters who would move from donald trump to liz cheney? not that many people if you're a

hard core committed donald trump voter. you don't just move over to liz cheney. it is taking never trumpers who then don't vote for joe biden. maybe she could really damage him in the republican primary, and her presence in the republican primary would stunt trump, much the way that marco rubio was taken out by chris christie, perhaps, but in the general, does not help joe biden at all. >> sam stein, this is why many democratic strategists are saying, applause for you, liz cheney, standing up to donald trump, leading this fight against his attempt to overturn the 2020 election, but, please, do not run for president. >> well, let's start by stipulating that this is painfully early for 2024 conversation. >> you think? >> i hope. i hope. but i think i agree with all the analysis. it's hard to see how she could impact an election in the way she wants while running in that election. elise is absolutely right, her candidacy would draw support away from biden by getting never

trumpers to vote for her, not him. i think the damage she could inflict, if that's what she wants to do, and all indications are that's what she wants to do, would be through the form of a primary bid. even that would be so long shot at this juncture. my suspicion is she knows this stuff. she is wise politically and understands how this works. she ends up doing something different than running for president, maybe launching an organization of some sort that could do ads or organizing in the course of the republican primary and ultimately in the general election, to try to defeat donald trump, which she has stated is her preeminent goal at this juncture. >> she said, my goal is not to be a spoiler but prevent donald trump from ever stepping in the white house again. maybe that comes from the outside rather than running in the race. >> or if she chooses, if she just decides she has to run, run in the primaries. i would love to see some republican primary debates with liz cheney against donald trump. i would really love to see. she could really weaken him with

body punches from the inside. but i think one thing that we shouldn't miss about this poll is it does say that, on a head-to-head, and i agree that we're painfully early here, talking about it, but on a head-to-head, biden beats trump. i think what the democrats need to look at is who other than biden can beat trump? according to this poll, he can beat him by four points. i don't know there's another democrat that we could poll that can do that. so all of this age talk, we need to start looking at, but the polls say he can beat trump. who else can beat trump? while we're on cheney land here, the democrats need to do a little inspection on who they have in their backup here, if biden does not keep his word and run. so far, he saying, and i think he really means that he is going to run. >> who exactly the is trotting out of the bullpen, mike? that is the question. that's something president biden said himself. the white house has said, i see

all these polls that say 70% of democrats don't want me to run again, but i also see the polls that say 98% of you would vote for me again against donald trump because i've already beaten him. that's their argument. >> as i listen to this, i'm in a wistful mood, wondering, will we ever be rid of the division, the disruption, the demagoguery that is donald trump? we talk about him in one way or another every single day, sometimes all day long. the damage that this man has done to this country, to the institutions of government, to the business of politics and elections is almost incomprehensible to me at this time. you know, we're never talking about a republican versus a democrat straight up. we're always inserting and forced to insert donald trump in almost every conversation. i don't know about you people, i don't know about the people out there, i am so sick of listening

to his name, talking about him, hearing him be referenced, his every move being followed. how did this one individual, as corrupt as he is, as he has been proven to be nearly all of his adult life, so dominate the business of politics in this country? >> because of his crime syndicate, it is not going to end for quite some time, hate to say. >> i know. >> for media, his whole string of things, now the revenge of the librarians is happening. they might be the ones who actually take him down. >> national archives. >> at the end of the day, go national archives. but we're going to have -- you know, this is going to be such anion going story. i do think, though, we should refer to the republican party as the trump party, just as you did earlier. >> yes. >> that makes much more sense. you look at the context of who some of these candidates are going into midterms, and those are trump candidates.

they're not who gop leadership wanted to have running for office and losing senate seats, basically. >> but i think that, to barnicle's point, i think one of the reasons we have this endless conversation about trump is, from my view, trump is a symptom of a lot of suppressed feelings that had never been brought to the forefront, that people now are seeing him bring out how they feel, as ugly and as archaic as they are. i think we're seeing them expressed because he's hit something that people really have felt. now, i don't think he feels a lot of it himself. i think he's playing on that because he is the ultimate con man. but i think that is why he is having this lasting effect, is that a lot of people are saying, "yeah, that's how i really wanted to say it. yeah, he represents me." the fact that a guy that has no lifestyle similar to them at all

is the one that brought this out is the irony of it, which is why i think he's the perfect symbol to deal with these ugly feelings once and for all. because the demise of trump, and there will be a demise, you got it from me here, whether it is long term or short term, there will be a demise. nothing that wicked can last forever in my opinion. >> the reason we're talking about him is, you can't wish him away. he is likely coming back and running for president again. he'll be back with us. sorry, mike. coming up, more fallout from the reversal of roe versus trig abortion take effect this week. we'll go through the laws and what they mean for women in those states. plus, a state lawmaker sees firsthand the consequences of a restrictive abortion law that he voted for. show you what he said when "morning joe" comes right back.

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three american service members suffered minor injuries in a rocket attack in syria. a pair of facilities that housed u.s. troops in northeast syria began taking rocket fire yesterday afternoon. one service member was treated and released. two others were said to be under evaluation for minor injuries. a u.s. military official tells nbc news the united states responded with strikes from apache helicopters, destroying three vehicles and killing two or three of iranian-backed militants believed to be responsible for yesterday's attacks. in ukraine, at least 25 people were killed, another 31 injured, when russian rockets hit a train station in the central part of the country. joining us now from kyiv with more on this story, nbc news foreign correspondent meagan fitzgerald. what more can you tell us? >> reporter: well, we know that this attack happened yesterday in the eastern part of the country, nipro, not part from the donetsk area.

25 people, as you mentioned, were killed in what is being seen as the deadliest attack since the middle of july, talking several weeks t. country was expecting some sort of attack. this one particularly sad because we know children were among those who died. in a separate attack not far from the railroad, we know a missile hit a home, killing an 11-year-old boy. there were attacks across the country. in the west and even just outside of kyiv, we know there was an explosion targeting a residential building. look, this is a country that's been on high alert. there is intelligence from the u.s., along with ukrainian intelligence, suggesting that the russians are preparing a particularly vicious attack. members of the community here in kyiv were told to stay inside their homes yesterday and to work remotely, not to have mass gatherings as the country celebrated its 31st independence day. but this threat is not over. the president of ukraine saying that people need to stay

vigilant. they need to pay attention to those air-raid sirens when they go off and take cover. because the thought here is that there could be an attack at any moment. willie. >> yeah, what's the -- just the color and feel on the ground in kyiv? as you reported and told us all week that there was tension because of this anniversary, the 31st anniversary of independence from the soviet union, that vladimir putin may take that as an opportunity to attack. how are the people in ukraine holding up? how are they feeling? >> reporter: willie, it is a great question. you know, we've been speaking with people here. the ukrainians are resilient people. they are convinced that they are going to beat the russians and push them out of their country. but, look, people are scared. people are on edge. we know ahead of the independence day yesterday, a lot of people here in kyiv left the city because there was concern there could be an attack here in the city. we know that, obviously, people stayed home from work. they didn't gather as they would for their independence day, just

like in the united states we have festivals, there's fireworks, gatherings, barbecues. it is a similar situation here. but yesterday was more of a somber day. it was a more of a low key day. not a lot of people out on the streets, enjoying the day. it wasn't a holiday. people didn't have off of work. they are on a heightened state of alert here because they realize that, at any moment, at any time, the russians could strike, willie. >> the united states yesterday on that independence day announcing $3 billion more of military assistance to ukraine, as the fight continues. nbc's meagan fitzgerald in kyiv for us this morning. thanks so much. we talked about him yesterday, congressman pat ryan will join us live in studio after his victory in the special election in upstate new york. how the swing district could hold the keys for democrats to hold on to the house this november. plus, 25-year-old maxwell frost could become the youngest member of congress in history.

the democratic nominee in florida for the house of representatives is our guest. "morning joe" is coming right back. ck

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and find out what your case could be worth. ♪ call one eight hundred, eight million new, restrictive trigger laws against abortion are set to take place today in three more states. in tennessee, nearly all abortions will be outlawed, except in cases related to preventing the death or serious injury of a pregnant woman. the law makes no exception for rape or incest. in texas, the state already has banned abortion with no exceptions for rape or incest. procedure only can be performed if the mother is having a medical emergency. the state's trigger law, which takes effect today, will toughen the punishment for those involved in a now illegal abortion. doctors could face life in prison and fines no smaller than $100,000. in idaho, that state implementing a near total ban, with exceptions for rape, incest, or if the mother's life

is in danger. doctors who perform abortions outside of these circumstances could face up to five years in prison. but late yesterday, the biden administration won his first legal victory in the supreme court since roe versus wade, convincing a federal judge to rule a doctor cannot be punished if he or she performs an abortion to protect the health of a pregnant patient. as of this morning, a total of 14 states have near total abortion bans or bans after six wo weeks of pregnancy. national political reporter at "the washington post," carolyn, thank you for being with us. one in three american women already lost abortion access with more restrictive laws coming. put this into perspective for us, if you could. what are we talking about here, and how quickly has this changed, just since the roe versus wade decision? >> i think what's really struck me in the two months since the

decision is just how swiftly these laws have come, one after the other after the other. we knew a series of trigger laws were going to take effect right away, but it's been even more than that. existing laws that had been on the books, that had been blocked because of roe were just swiftly taken away. we have seen one after the other in states moving to ban abortion in the most aggressive way possible. as you said, now one of three women in this country is mostly without abortion access two months after roe. >> what other laws are you hearing about in states that have banned abortion? i know in mississippi, there was a non-profit putting up billboards, psas essentially, with the website on how women can get the abortion pill. now, that is in contention over whether it is legal for people

to even advertise how to go around the state laws. >> i think a big question is abortion pills. what i'm seeing online, you know, what i'm seeing talking to patients, is just an overwhelming number of women are turning to the internet and turning to abortion pills that they're obtaining illegally as a way to get around these laws. i think for republicans, the next question is going to be, what do we do about that? how do we, you know, basically restrict what people can get online through the mail? that is, you know, what i'm hearing anti-abortion advocates really bring to the top of their list of things they want to tackle next. >> there is an extraordinary moment in south carolina, where a republican lawmaker now getting a lot of attention for emotional comments he made about his state's abortion laws. state representative collins

shared the story of how south carolina's 2021 heart beat abortion law, which bans abortions after six weeks, and that he supported, had a direct impact on a 19-year-old woman in his district who ended up in the er at 15 weeks pregnant. >> a 19-year-old girl appeared at the er. she was 15 weeks pregnant. her water broke. and the fetus was unviable. the standard of care was to advise her that they could extract or she could go home. the attorneys told the doctors that because of the fetal heart beat bill, because the 15-week-old had a heart beat, the doctors could not extract. there is a 50% chance, greater than 50% chance she's going to lose her uterus. there is a 10% chance that she

will develop sepsis and herself die. that weighs on me. i voted for that bill. these are affecting people, and we are having a meeting about this. it took that whole week, i did not sleep. i followed up with the doctor a week later. she had heard nothing. did not know about the 19-year-old. thank god, i followed up two weeks later. she did return to the er. they did extract the now non-beating fetus. what we do matters. >> those comments come after the state supreme court temporarily blocked south carolina's 2021 heart beat law this week, but abortion still is outlawed there after 20 weeks. the statehouse now considering a new abortion ban that has no exceptions, other than to save the life of the mother. but as we just heard there, even that is complicated. that bill advanced tuesday with collins and five other republicans declining to vote.

the south carolina senate has pursued an even stricter version that would criminalize anyone who aids those seeking abortions. elise, we heard he voted for the bill, and now when he is seeing the reality of what it means, you know, he's haunted by it. he said it weighs on him. but it gets to something we've talked about now for a couple months on this show, that some of this stuff is just extreme and radical. the idea that these states are going to force women to deliver the babies of their rapists or somebody who molested them, it's not only grotesque but it is an extreme position to take. >> it's so dark. i can't -- i got chills listening to the story of a pregnant woman having to carry what she knows is a dead baby, for two weeks. every day that you're pregnant feels like a lifetime. having that kind of pain for two weeks, just because of the law, because the government is forcing doctors to not practice

medicine the way that they see fit. i just -- the left is really losing. just libertarians in general, people who don't believe in government intervention, they're losing this battle over what this is. this is government control. that's all it is, government control. >> caroline, that clip we just played, deeply emotional clip, is probably playing out in individual homes around the country right now that we don't know about. my question to you is, am i wrong in getting the sense that various republican state legislatures around the country, are we now looking at a race to find the most punitive abortion laws, depending on the republican legislature in the state we're talking about? >> i think that that is probably a fair assessment in a lot of these states. you know, i spent a lot of time last spring in oklahoma, where

the governor repeatedly said, you know, i want to be the most pro-life governor in this country. you know, in a lot of ways, it really is a race. on that clip, i'm just hearing a lot of frustration from people who are saying, we told you this. >> right. >> there are -- there were doctors all through the spring. i was in state legislatures has they were passing these bans, and all through the spring, there were doctors who would come before these legislatures and testify and say these things. so, now, there is a real feeling among abortion rights activists of, you weren't listening. why weren't you listening? >> yeah, and this is part of the reason we're seeing democrats using this as a central issue in some of the campaigns we're watching and will be into the fall. national political reporter at "the washington post," caroline kitchener. >> thank you for being with us. we'll have more on president

biden's announcement about student loan forgiveness. we'll speak to the head of the naacp. plus, what do young americans think about that issue? harvard university is looking at that. john joins us ahead, saying this key group of voters is about value as well as policy. we'll explain when "morning joe" comes right back. s right back

7:00 in the morning here in

new york city. live picture thursday morning from the top of our building at 30 rockefeller center. president biden speaking about his massive plan to cancel hundreds of billions of dollars in student debt. up to $20,000 for some borrowers. yesterday at the white house, the plan getting some pushback, even from some of his allies. welcome back to "morning joe." it is thursday, august 25th. mike barnicle, the reverend al sharpton, and elise jordan still with us. 43 million people now in line to have a chunk at least of their student loan debt erased, and as many as 20 million people could clear all of their student debt. those are the figures from the white house following an executive action yesterday by president biden. the president acknowledged it is not a perfect solution, but he calls it a responsible plan to address a broken system. >> not everything i'm announcing today is going to make everybody happy. something is too much. i find it interesting how some of my republican friends who voted for those tax cuts think we shouldn't be helping these

folks. something is too little. but i believe my plan is responsible and fair. it focuses the benefit on middle class and working families. it helps both current and future borrowers and will fix a badly broken system. these actions build on my administration's effort to make college more affordable in the first place. >> here are the details. borrowers who earn less than $125,000 a year or $250,000 for a couple who files jointly can get relief up to $10,000. pell grant recipients, who make up the majority of student loan borrowers, will be eligible for $20,000. the administration also extending the pause on federal student loan payments through the end of the year. and the president yesterday announced a new repayment plan that would cap monthly payments for undergraduate loans at 5% of discretionary income. that is half of the rate under most existing plans.

democratic lawmakers, many of them wanted more, but generally happy yesterday with the president's move. >> let's just celebrate. because, understand, 20 million americans got the news today that they will never have to pay another nickel on student loan debts. >> young people, people who are trying to make end's meet, they as it is are struggling. so to ask them to be paying back their student loans right now with a difficult economy is just wrong. >> this is an unprecedented step to alleviate the burden people are feeling. >> director of polling at the institute of politics at harvard university, an msnbc political contributor, john. correspondent for the "washington examiner" david drucker. and correspondent morgan rad radford here with us. morgan, we want to bring this

down to street level and see how this might impact people saddled with the debt. >> the question is who does this ultimately affect on the ground every single day. first off, to set the stage, the vast majority of student debt holders, around 74% owe less than $40,000. more than half of all borrowers owe less than $20,000. in a nutshell, there are basically three categories of people most affected by this. one, you have younger people who are just now starting off to pay off the first loans. number two, people who have lower credit scores. three, blacks and latinos who will end up having a higher share of their debt eliminated when compared to their white counterparts. that's ultimately because if you look at that data, it shows the students of color do two things. they take out smaller loans and owe more after graduation. if you look at that, 90% of black students and 70% of latinos take out loans compared to 66% of white students. four years after graduation, the average black college graduate

owes more than $52,000. that's compared to around $30,000 for latinos and $28,000 for white graduates. the end of the day, those numbers look a lot like people. like loan holders. this student said his mother had to deport back the mexico. then another who had to stop going to school to get a work. >> i went to school in '93 to '96. it's like, now, i wasn't able to finish. life happened. i had a baby. you know, i had to get a job outside of college and work. then, you know, got married, had another baby. long story short, i was never able to finish. i'm 46 years old and still have this, you know, over my head. this announcement definitely, you know, gives a little hope, you know, for a start, some relief for us. >> i took out loans because i didn't have financial support

from my family. i am one of four children, but i'm the only u.s. citizen in my family. i come from a mixed status household. i voted for the president specifically for this issue. $20,000 for pell recipients would be a major victory. i voted for the president for those republicans, and i would feel the president is delivering to an extent, even if it is not everything we advocated for. >> you just heard him say this was a politically motivaing factor. the big picture is while every student loan holder we spoke to was happy about this decision, many said they do hope this is just the first step. because even though this is likely to eliminate student debt for around 14.6 million people, there are still around 30 million who owe more than that threshold, with new students taking on debt every single semester. >> great context on this. real-world examples. john, you look closely on all issues at generation-z and millenials, how they're feeling.

how do they feel about debt cancellation? obviously, i think this is among, you know, demographic groups, perhaps they're most concerned about all of this. >> well, thanks, willie. you're right, because what they're looking for in the next stage of their life is financial independence. this issue cuts at this. this plays at another level, as well, which is, it helps rebuild trust among generation z and millenials, the largest voting block we'll see in 2024. both in government, generally, that government can do big things, that there is faith that if you vote, you will see a tangible effect and impact on the vote. number two, it builds faith in president biden. over the last several months, i've conducted lots and lots of focus groups and surveys. younger people were questioning whether government was listening to them, whether president biden was actually tuned in and caring and listening to their needs.

now, just 18 months into the term, most of the work of the last several months, they see the administration delivering on guns, a promise kept. they see the administration deliver on climate, a promise kept. now, something that impacts them directly right now, they see him delivering on student debt. i think it works on two levels. >> rev, as you've been saying, and we heard some of the democratic lawmakers say, this is not all that a lot of democrats and progressiveslooki. this is an important step. as morgan points out, transformational in the lives of millions of people in this country. >> definitely many of us were pushing for $50,000. but we got more than we even thought biden was going to do. we're going to keep pushing. congress can come into play here. i think one thing that morgan's report showed is that there is a disproportionate amount of blacks and latinos, people of

color, that disproportionately have to deal with it because they come from a disproportionate economy. therefore, the financial backing they have, the ground, the foundation they have is much different. so you need this kind of relief. and these are people -- i keep repeating it everywhere i've gone in the last 24 hours -- these are people that did the right thing. we're not talking about people that did irresponsible things that fit the stereotype of the welfare mom that reagan used. we're talking about people who went to school and were trying to be responsible citizens. that's going to help this country compete with china and russia on an educational level. we're trying to find ways to make them suffer for that? i think this is not only the right thing to do morally, i think that, yeah, there's nothing wrong with them doing the right thing politically, like keeping a promise that you made. i think that's a good habit for presidents to do. >> yeah, and president biden thinks this is the right thing

to do, but he also knows it may help push some of these people out to the polls this fall, as well. with all of that said, we've heard a lot of arguments against this, including last year from house speaker nancy pelosi, who said the president does not have the authority to cancel student debt. >> people think that the president of the united states has the power for debt forgiveness. he does not. he can postpone. he can delay. but he does not have that power. that has to be an act of congress. >> that was just over a year ago. a former top lawyer at the department of education under barack obama told "the wall street journal" it is, quote, doubtful the courts will even let this stand. on the economic front, former treasury secretary larry summers among those arguing that cancelling student debt will increase inflation by encouraging colleges to raise tuition. and a former economic adviser to president obama tweeted this, pouring roughly half a trillion dollars of gasoline on the

inflationary fire that are already burning is reckless. "the washington post" editorial board called biden's student loan announcement a, quote, regressive expensive mistake. this is "the washington post," writing in part, it takes money from the broader tax base, mostly made up of workers who did not go to college, to subsidize the education debt of people with valuable degrees. mr. biden's plan includes a cap, it does not reflect need or earnings potential. white collar professionals with high future salaries tend to benefit. extending the pause would cost $20,000. while forgiving $10,000 for households, it'd cost $230 billion. together, it'd nullify a decade's worth of deficit reduction. the loan decision will not do enough to help the most vulnerable americans. it will, however, provide a windfall for those who don't need it. with the american taxpayers

footing the bill. that is from "the washington post." according to the latest census, fewer than half of american adults hold a college degree. david drucker, this is at the core of the criticism a fairness issue, which is to say, people who didn't go to college, who don't have the college degrees, who didn't take out these loans, more than half of americans as we just saw there, are footing the bill for people who did. >> yeah. look, i listen to that litany of criticism, and i think republicans can take the day off. just let it speak for itself. look, i think, willie, there's a couple important points here. obviously, there's a lot of support for president biden's policy. there is an important segment of his base, john della volpe spoke to that, younger voters for whom this is an important move. you have to look at this in totality. i don't know that we know holistically it is the best political move, possibly before the midterm elections where biden and democrats need to juice their base and the

democratic electorate. it could be helpful. but when you look at the 2024 scenario where it is not just how many votes you win but in which battleground states you win those votes, there are a lot of americans who did not go to school or did go to school and pay off their loans, who are going to be resentful of fact that they are now paying for everybody else. when the government engages in loan forgiveness, it's the taxpayer that is engaging in loan forgiveness. i think there's a reason why when you look at the key senate races this year, whether it is tim ryan in ohio, senator bennett in colorado, senator cortez masto in nevada, there's some criticism, or at least not a wholesale embrace at the very least, of this policy. they have lots of voters who are going to look at this and not be happy with it. one of the things driving our politics the past ten years or so, but particularly in the trump era, have been a complaint about fairness. we've seen it for bernie sanders from the left, donald trump from the right. this populous movement claiming that this isn't fair and that

isn't fair. you know, life may not be fair, but that's where our politics is today. just a note on this, as somebody who did go to school and has children that will one day go to school, this may be ultimately a necessary policy, a good policy, but it puts no pressure on colleges and universities to lower the cost of tuition. because somebody, yet again, is footing the bill that enables them to keep their prices right where they are. >> john, this discussion, and specifically morgan's piece we played the top of this discussion, the ramifications of this issue are literally endless. there's a lot of resentment that can go into this decision and a will of applause that can go into this decision. the president of the united states, some people are going to say $10,000, it's great, but it is not enough. others are going to be saying, no, nothing. no repayment whatsoever. but my question to you is, in your focus groups, among largely younger people, does it ever come up or do you ever talk

about issues like, say, a 44-year-old ups driver with two kids and a good union job, who has helped his children pay off their college educations, and now they've paid off their college educations. and there's some sense of resentment, i'd think, among people like that. then, on the other side, you match a 46-year-old woman in morgan's piece who is still paying off a college loan, that's ridiculous. how do we balance this off? what do you hear when you have the focus groups? >> thanks, mike. i heard yesterday from a 60-something-year-old woman who is struggling with student debt, as well. this is something that transcends all generations. but what i hear from voters in these focus groups is actually concern that this hasn't happened before. that president trump had an opportunity. president obama had an opportunity. president bush and president

clinton had an opportunity to help those 30, 40, 50, 60-year-old people at a similar stage of their lives. often, i hear they're grateful that someone is handling this for the next generation. i think that there is a greater appreciation than we might understand about the importance of education. k through 12 and also higher ed, in terms of making our communities and, mike, our country stronger. that ups driver, the plumbers, the weldw le welders, they understand we need it. do they want additional opportunities and community college paid for? absolutely. but they appreciate the burden was on prior presidents, and president biden is moving forward, at least in the initial step, to try to correct a systemic failure within the system that provides opportunities for some but not everybody. >> david, you have a new piece in the "washington examiner" reporting on how democrats are

feeling new strength going into the midterms. do you think this is another move that will juice the base, or is it something that's politically questionable at this turn, when there's so many issues that are already motivating democrats? >> well, i think we have to look at where democrats were earlier this year, before the summer, and where they are as we're about to turn the corner at labor day into the homestretch of the fall campaign. i mean, there was a lot of apathy. there was a lot of sort of dispiritedness against democrats who felt their party wasn't delivering. this is something the president's party always deals with in an election. what have you done for me lately? we're already in power, and opposition tends to motivate in midterm election. it's why we've seen this pendulum swing back and forth in the 21st century with the out party winning big in a midterm, the in party struggling. democrats scored a number of

legislative victories the last few weeks that have at least given their voters a reason to think about turning out, if not turn out all together. obviously, the dobbs decision, overturning roe v. wade, has been motivating. but i think that what we want to see is where things are a month from now, where things are six weeks from now. sometimes there is this summer lull where the party that had been on the march, in this case the republicans, look like they're weakening. it look like maybe the midterm election is not going to be too bad for the in party. they'll find a way to survive. then toward the end, we just see this rush to put a brake on the current administration. a lot of these races often finish close in midterm elections. you look at a wave and say, well, one party won most of them. a lot of times, these are one and two-point races that were really tough, but you just look at the total outcome and it's a wave. having said all of that, democrats are certainly in a much better position to compete

than they were a few weeks ago. it looks like enthusiasm numbers have caught up not quite to where republicans are, but are nipping at their heels. if this becomes a battle over turnout and republicans and democrats are as energized or as close as republicans, then democrats do not have to suffer and may not suffer as steep of losses as were originally projected. having said that, one more carrot, a little stick here or little vinegar, a little honey, republicans only have to win five seats in the house to win the majority. they only need to win one seat in the senate to win the majority. they don't need a republican wave to win control of congress. they just need to win a few seats, take advantage of historical trends, and they're at least in control of the floor next year. >> as you know, david, talking to republicans yesterday, they are energized by this announcement from president biden yesterday. they think they have an issue they can run on. senior political correspondent

for "the washington examiner," david drucker. harvard university's john della volpe, thank you, both. morgan radford, thank you for your reporting, as well. great to see you. ahead, we'll speak to the head of the naacp, derrick johnson, on why he thinks the plan to forgive student loan debt is a good step but leaves key people out. and maxwell frost, the 25-year-old florida democrat poised to become the youngest member of congress will join us. what does he think of the plan? plus, as violent rhetoric from the right intensifies against government agencies, congresswoman and former cia counterterrorism officer abigail spanberger will be here on how to combat the threats against our democracy. and next, it was the most surprising result from tuesday's primary. perhaps the most closely watched. democrat pat ryan winning a special election in upstate new york. the congressman elect joins us next. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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months ago, we got in this race, unexpectedly, certainly unexpectedly. and from the beginning, people counted us out. the early polls had us down 14 points. but we got in this race because the foundations of our democracy were and remain under direct threat. that is deadly serious. and in the face of those threats, we took clear, strong stances to stand up for fundamental rights and freedoms for people in this community, in this district, and in this country. when the supreme court ripped

away reproductive freedoms, access to abortion rights, we said, this is not what america stands for. >> that is democrat pat ryan moments after clinching victory in a special election for new york's 19th u.s. congressional district. and the congressman elect joins us now live in studio. great to have you with us here. >> morning. >> it is funny, yesterday, we were talking for hours about your election. why are you talking about a district, a special election in upstate new york in the hudson valley? so many people on both sides were watching closely to see what would happen there. you talked about reproductive rights. you talked about abortion a lot there. do you think that was the issue that energized the voters who gave you the win? >> we talked about choice. we talked about freedom. we talked about unifying american values and the fact that they are under direct threat, as you heard there. that is -- that has been a catalyzing, energy-driving thing, certainly across this

district. i mean, we just felt the ground shifting as we were going through the final weeks. i kept trying to explain that to people, what i was feeling on the ground. a lot of people said, oh, i don't know. i don't know. i'm so proud that our community stood up at this moment. i think it is an existential moment for our democracy and my community delivered. >> one of the reasons people were watching, it is truly a swing district. it went for obama, then it went for trump, then it went back to biden. it was shown in the margin on tuesday night. just for national viewers out there, talk a little bit about what your district is like and why it was being watched so closely. >> i'm bias. it is obviously the best district in the country. >> there you go. >> no, it's about 90 mile north of new york city. we're more rural, small businesses, farms, a lot of veterans, lot of working families. it's a community like a lot of america that really feels like we've been left behind, especially coming out of the pandemic. very small percent of people

doing really well. everybody else feeling so much pain, so much economic pressure. we talked about choice. we talked about freedom and reproductive rights and abortion access. i talked a lot of economic relief, too. we did both. i think the one-two combo is the key. that is where most people are at. our utility bills are out of control. my second ad talked about just hammering our utility company that has been ripping customers off. i think one of the big takeaways is we have to both provide relief and fight for these freedoms. people just want to see the fight in us right now. >> pat, i think most people don't realize that you're going to be on the ballot again in november. >> yeah. >> in relatively part of a new district that's been -- because of redistricting. >> right. >> you're going to have to reintroduce yourself to people who probably don't know who you are. when you do that, the balance of issues you talk about, how to you do that going forward in a relatively new area of your

district? >> i think the issues and the challenges are very much the same across these two districts. there's about a 50% overlap from the old district to the new district. there's no shortcut for just doing the work, showing up, going to every single corner, talking to people, actually listening to people. >> what do you hear when you listen to people? what do you hear? >> a lot of cynicism right now. i hear that folks just are losing -- i think trust is really the operative word. a lot of broken promises. people feeling like a whole lot of words, not a lot of actions. the last few weeks, though, we have seen a significant change. we are actually seeing delivering. we are seeing people getting help. i mean, student loan relief, huge. inflation reduction act, bringing down prescription drug prices, huge. one of the most popular things in my district, finally making big corporations pay their fair share of taxes. that's something we need to do

for decades. that momentum, combined with us taking that clear, clear stance on freedom, this universal american value, has been very, very potent combination. >> one of the things that struck me about your campaign is what you described here, that you were able to sympathize both the ideas that people are concerned about, threat to democracy, women's right to choose, but also deal with the local utility company and what people were feeling on the ground. would you advise a lot of your colleagues in the democratic party that are running in the midterms that they need to deal with the ground as well as the cerebral, well thought out policy stuff? because people lift on the ground. i mean, often, reverend mike

here talks about people in the ivory tower. no, that's me. but you proved it to be effective against the odds. >> the only way you rebuild trust is show up at the ground level, actually deliver help. i mean, when we called for a rate freeze on our utility company, which has a monopoly on the customers, we finally felt like -- i think our whole community felt like we had some power against this very, very powerful company that they've been held hostage by. i was knocking doors until the very last minute on tuesday. one of the most powerful conversations was mom in her 40s, four kids. she literally said she was afraid to cook for her kids because the gas prices were so high. she was, instead, going to the fast food store down the street. think of the ripple effects of what that means. on a human level, just how heartbreaking that is. to get relief in people's hands is just -- that's the only way to change it. >> pat, did you hear voters talk much at all about ukraine?

>> to be honest, no. you know, i'm a west point grad. i am a former army officer. i'm a foreign policy person personally, but did not have a lot of conversations about that. we've really kind of seen that on the ground, anyway, be overcome by threats to democracy, economic pain and pressure, so yeah. >> what were you doing before you ran for congress, and why did you decide to run? >> so i had an awesome job. county executive, which is sort of like a mayor in upstate. got to lead our community through a pandemic. got to do a bunch of economic revitalization programs. got to run our whole social services and community support programs. real ground level where the rubber meets the road, how do we help people? i got a lot more gray hair than i did when i started the job, but a lot more hope. i mean, i really have a lot more hope.

we were able to come, in our community, through this divisive pandemic and pretty much stick together. i think each day kind of rebuild that trust deficit. i think a lot of the work in our democracy is going to have to be bottom-up because the top-down is not getting us there. >> your republican opponent didn't talk a lot about donald trump and defending donald trump and january 6th didn't come up much. the attempted coup and overturning the election. wanted to talk about the economy, the biden economy, all those things. is donald trump in the conversations you have with voters at this point, or are they just worried about what is in front of them in their daily lives? >> i think it is in the subconscious. i think people understand at a very, very foundational level what's happening. i mean, the polling that threats to democracy have surpassed economic pressure actually really aligns with what i've been feeling on the ground. the fact we think that people can't hold both of those at the same time, it really doesn't

give people credit for how smart they are and how intuitive they are. i mean, these are generational rights and freedoms that my grandfather fought for in world war ii. to see these things ripped away, that strikes nerves. and i think especially in the congress, people want to see candidates and actual leaders who are going to say, no, that is not who we are as a country. i'm going to come in and do everything i can to try to fix that. >> great candidate who ran a great campaign and now gets to enjoy it for a couple months before you get back on the ballot. most importantly, thank you for your service to the country and the united states army. >> thank you. >> congratulations. that is representative elect pat ryan from new york's 19th district. coming you, we'll show you new video from an attack on an fbi field office that came just days after agents searched mar-a-lago. also ahead, new reporting on the communication between the government and donald trump's legal team before the fbi took those boxes of documents from

his home. plus, democratic congresswoman abigail spanberger of virginia joins our conversation when we come right back on "morning joe."

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earlier this month, a gunman in ohio breached a field fbi office in cincinnati three days after the fbi searched mar-a-lago. posts from the suspect's social media account suggest he was inspired to act following that search. new video shows how the intense situation unfolded once law enforcement confronted that man. nbc news national correspondent gabe gutierrez has details. [ sirens ] >> reporter: the barrage of gunfire alongside an ohio corn field came during a tense standoff, after police say a man tried to breach this fbi field office in cincinnati this month. >> in sight. >> reporter: a high-speed chase

followed the attempted break-in. >> 85, 90 miles per hour. >> reporter: the suspect stopping next to the cornfield. the gunfire starts. troopers take cover. this video provided to nbc affiliate wlwt by the warren county sheriff's office. just one of the agencies involved. >> the car now has a pistol. >> reporter: more officers arrive, including an aviation unit, watching from above. >> the driver's side window is shot out. he is back up and on his knees. back on his knees and he is holding a rifle. >> reporter: it is a rare look at officers assessing the threat in real time. >> he's got a rifle. let's just make sure we get heavy equipment there, and i think we can come up with a better game plan. versus trying to go in with the rifle and he's ready for a fight. >> reporter: the standoff lasts nearly 6 hours. >> it appears he might grab another firearm. >> reporter: eventually, law enforcement closes in. the suspect shot and killed.

>> nbc's gabe gutierrez reporting there. joining us now, democratic congresswoman abigail spanberger of virginia. she is a formere cia officer. good to see you, congresswoman. let's talk about the threats to the fbi, threats to the irs now, other agencies that, frankly, some of your colleagues in the united states congress have put in harm's way. we heard this man who was killed in ohio, who went to a field office in cincinnati because of what he'd heard about the fbi searching mar-a-lago, that they were out to get the president and everything else. have you talked to any of your colleagues about turning down some of the rhetoric, particularly some of it based in conspiracy theories? >> well, i want to just first take a minute to reflect on that video, the number of law enforcement officers whose lives were in danger because one man was spun up in anger and hate, in the conspiracies you mentioned. in my conversations with my colleagues, i've been very clear

in the danger that exists when people are so willing to lean into lies. like the lie of 87,000 armed irs agents. that is not real. that is not true. yet, we see members of congress and people who want to head to congress, who are willing to call the fbi names, accuse them of being corrupt, all for political gain. in fact, in our race, my opponent sent out a fundraising email, calling the fbi corrupt, calling them deep state. it is disrespectful. it is a lie. it is a conspiracy. those who wish to go to the halls of congress actually believe these lies themselves, or they are willing to put the lives of the men and women in law enforcement, fbi, it was local police, sheriffs, state police in that video you just showed, by pushing these lies, either to fund their campaigns or to curry favor with some.

it is dangerous, and it has to stop. >> congresswoman spanberger, we just spoke with representative elect pat ryan who won a true swing district here in new york state. he's on the ballot again and will be running in november, as you are on the ballot in november. he was talking about the significance in terms of voter energy having to do with the supreme court decision on roe v. wade, but also he mentioned the fact that when he's out, what he hears a lot of people talking about are two elements. trust in government and the fact that democracy seems to be in peril. i'm wondering, in your travels around your district, what do you hear on those two issues if you hear anything at all about them? >> absolutely. i heard the interview with congressman elect ryan, and he is spot on. the deficit of trust, the cynicism that exists, i hear from voters the, well, you know,

challenges facing their lives. economic issues, health-related issues, a concern that maybe people just don't care. the cynicism that lawmakers are not focused on their constituents and a lack of trust that people on capitol hill or people in richmond here in virginia, at our capitol or anywhere else, that. >> narrator: they're not focused on the needs of those they serve. it's the deficit of trust that creates fertile ground for conspiracies, that allows people to turn against our system and democracy. there are multiple steps we can take. i'm leading the bipartisan effort to ban lawmakers from being able to buy or sell stocks, individual stocks. it seems like a simple thing, but when there is headline after headline of members of congress who are making money on this stock or that stock related to the war or the pandemic or any other thing that we might be briefed on, when i'm around my

district, people say, oh, of course, people are in it for themselves. so this legislation that we are moving forward and want to vote on is about a tiny little step forward in affirming to voters, you can trust me because i'm in this work to support my constituents and not my stock portfolio. in any place where we can show up, where we can listen, where we can advocate for the issues, hyper local and national, and take steps to ensure that people realize and know and see that we are working for our constituents and not ourselves, that is how we do the building block foundational work of strengthening our democracy, strengthening our system and, frankly, strengthening our communities that have been hurting for the past few years. >> congresswoman spanberger, as you outline that part of the distrust that is building up among some of your constituents, is there also a sense that you're getting that people are

concerned about the very structure of government, of our democracy is at risk? when you look at the video of the attempt there at the field office in cincinnati, the fbi, do you get a sense that people want to see some aggressive way that those that are in charge of government now would stop those that have really destabilized government itself? i mean, january 6th was the obvious example. but are you sensing people are wondering, can we hold on to government and to this democracy as we've known it, or at least as it was preached to us, whether we ever got all the way there or not? is this instability something you're hearing? >> absolutely. certainly, voters will frequently talk to me about the images, what they saw on january 6th on their televisions. i was among the lawmakers who were in the house chamber as

that attack ensued. i speak frequently about the bravery of the capitol police officers and the metropolitan police officers who saved the day, saved that building, saved everybody inside. safeguarded our democracy for that time. so the unease and concern for the democracy, access to voting rights, ensuring that people's voices really are heard at the ballot box. here in virginia, under the prior gubernatorial administration and our state legislature, we put in place significant reforms, expanding access to the ballot, ensuring voters' ability to vote, having 45 days of early voting. here in virginia, we're in this interesting place where we see the steps forward that can be made to affirm that we want our citizenry to vote, that that vote is important, it is their role in democracy, it's their responsibility as part of our system, but we see that, at the

federal level, even though the house passed the john lewis voting rights act, we couldn't move it in the united states senate. so there is a clear contrast between what we know is possible, what has benefitted, you know, be it the local truck driver. i heard this at the polls in 2020. a truck driver said, i'm a truck driver. i get my route every morning and every tuesday of election day, year after year, i never know whether or not i'm going to be able to vote. it depends on how long my route is. now that we have early voting, i can always vote on a saturday, never have to worry. i'll always know my vote is heard. so looking at the federal level, the fact that the senate did not allow us to move forward with the voting rights act, that is an area of consternation. i think it makes people want to see continued forward movement. of course, i'm a co-sponsor and voted for the legislation twice and will continue to work to see its final passage and movement to the president's desk. but so many of the places where we can be strengthening the system, some of it is through legislation like the voting

rights act, ensuring people's votes really are their voices in our democracy, but also ensuring that we legislators are doing the hard work of listening and being fully responsive. frankly, as congressman elect ryan mentioned, the inflation reduction act, lowering prescription drugs. i've been hearing about the cost of prescription drugs particularly from seniors since i was first elected in 2018. the idea we're combating climate change, that is something i've been hearing about since i was first elected in 2018. the fact we're bringing farmers and producers to the table in our efforts to sequester carbon and fight climate change and invest in rural and cultural communities. the fact we're taking meaningful steps forward to stop gun violence in our communities and to recognize the needs of our communities in terms of ongoing mental health crises, these are successes we have had. i was touring bridges and roads that are going to be getting significant investments in our

district because of the infrastructure bill we passed last year and the president signed last year. so we are doing that work of uniting the reality of the good work we're doing on capitol hill, the bills going to the president's desk, and the meeting they have back home in their communities. >> big news out of the white house yesterday, student loan relief for some 43 million americans that will go a long way to helping them get out from underneath the burden. also criticized. nancy pelosi a year ago said the president didn't have the power to do that. we'll see what the courts say. some say it'll contribute to inflation, including some of president obama's economic advisers. others saying it is immoral to make people who didn't take out loans pay off the loans of people who did. where are you on this issue? >> well, across my district, i have heard all those opinions voiced by constituents and the people i represent. really, notably, there has been ebbs and flows in information we have had as it was initially discussed in the public that

this was something -- that this executive order was something that the biden administration was considering. there's a lack of clarity in terms of this bumpy road of getting here. i have been getting a lot of con constituent questions about what this means. for me, moving forward, this is a band-aid step, a point in time step. it impacts millions of americans. but there are families across the country that are dropping their kids off at school, at universities this week, who aren't yet contending with the root issue, which is the affordability crisis of higher education in our country. that is something that we all need to be focused on, or we'll continue to be facing the challenge of generation after generation, continuing to contend with that. it is also important that we continue to have conversations about investing in apprenticeship programs, labor programs, and in all of the phenomenal and absolutely vital

jobs that community members hold, many of which also don't require a four-year degree. >> do you believe this is a step toward helping with that, $10,000 for people who took out federal student loans, $20,000 for people with pell grant loans? >> i think there are certainly benefits to many individuals, to communiies and the ability to invest, but i don't want the conversation to end here. because we have to get at the issue of affordability. we have to make sure that we're not constantly having a conversation every few years as to whether or not this is the step that the government should take. that is not sustainable. that should not be our goal. our goal needs to be to get at the root cause of the college affordability crisis and, moving forward, ensure community members, whether they go to college, don't go to college, have family sustaining jobs, can make investments, can buy homes if they choose to do that, and can be a part of the economic drive in our communities, making investments in locally, the

economy both in their communities and across the country. >> congresswoman abigail spanberger of virginia, thank you so much for being with us. appreciate it. still ahead, flooding across parts of the south. plus, vanessa bryant, the widow of nba superstar kobe bryant, awarded $16 million in a lawsuit over leaked helicopter crash photographs. we'll go over what exactly happened in court yesterday. plus, a new head of the secret service amid scrutiny over missing text messages related to january 6th. "morning joe" is back in a moment.

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story joins us with details in that timeline. also, bill nye the science guy will join us to tell us about his new show on peacock, about how we can survive and prevent major global disasters. "morning joe" is coming right back.

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20 million people who can start getting on with their lives. all this means people can start finally crawling out from under the mountain of debt, to get on top of their rent and utilities. to finally think about buying a home or starting a family or starting a business. and, by the way, when this happens, the whole economy is better off. >> president biden making the case for his decision to wipe out hundreds of billions of dollars in student debt, up to $20,000 for some borrowers. we will discuss the impact that could have on the economy and whether it strikes at the heart of the problem, the soaring cost

of college. plus, today is the deadline for the justice department to submit its proposed redactions to the affidavit used to get the search warrant at mar-a-lago. we'll have the latest developments in the investigation of former president donald trump. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is thursday, august 25th. i'm willie geist. with us, msnbc contributor mike barnicle. former aide to the george w. bush white house and state departments, elise jordan. the president of the national action network and host of "politics nation," reverend al sharpton. and white house editor for "politico," sam stein. let's dive into the story that has everybody talking right now. 43 million people in line to have at least a chunk of their student loan debt erased. as many as 20 million people could clear all of their student debt. those are the figures from the white house following an executive action yesterday by president biden. the president pushed back at criticism that debt cancellation will make inflation worse.

>> by resuming student loan payments at the same time as we provide targeted relief, we're taking an economically responsible course. as a consequence, about $50 billion a year will start coming back into the treasury because the resumption of debt. independent experts agree that these actions, taken together, will provide real benefits for families without meaningful effect on inflation. >> here's how it breaks down. borrowers who earn less than $125,000 a year or $250,000 for couples who file taxes jointly can get relief for up to $10,000. pell grant recipients will be eligible for up to $20,000. the administration also extending the pause on federal student loan payments through the end of the year. and the president yesterday announced a new repayment plan that would cap monthly payments for undergraduate loans at 5% of discretionary income.

that's half the rate under most existing plans. the reaction on capitol hill fell, predictably, along party lines. >> let's just celebrate because, understand, 20 million americans got the news today that they will never have to pay another nickel on student loan debts. >> young people, people who are trying to make end's meet, they as it is are struggling. so to ask them to be paying back their student loans right now with a difficult economy is just wrong. >> this is an unprecedented step to alleviate the burden that people are feeling. >> i think it's a bad idea. i'm sure the people who will benefit from it will love it. the question is, is it fair to everyone else? >> that's exactly what this is, a massive bailout for people who have made bad decisions and are doing very well economically. >> it is completely unfair. hard working people, they

shouldn't have to pay off the great big student loan debt for some college student that piled up massive debt going to some ivy league school. >> rev, we're going to get into some of the complications with this and some of the criticism of it, but let's start with, first of all, for president biden, this was a campaign promise, number one, and, number two, this will be transformational for millions of people in this country. >> definitely was a campaign promise, and it definitely will be a relief for millions of people. and it definitely is a step in the direction that we wanted this president to go. many of us voted for him to go. did we want him to go further? yes. will we always want him to go further? yes. but he's gone further than anyone else has gone. let's remember, when we hear the opposition party, the trump party give their objections, these are people that did exactly what they said they would not do.

the whole stereotype is that these are people who want to live life and do nothing. they're reckless. they're worthless. they're not trying to lift themselves up by their bootstraps. these are people who got into debt trying to educate themselves, be good citizens, trying to make the nation better. they aren't in debt because they were partying all night. they were going to school. society is saying, we have a responsibility to not put weights on their legs the rest of their lives because they tried to be constructive, well-educated citizens. when you compare that to how we are globally, how people are trying to educate and outrun america in terms of our educational ability, we ought to see it as an investment in raising the standards of the country and commending people that, despite their backgrounds, many of them impoverished, i want to be educated. i want to have the kind of life that maybe i can't afford but

that i can make myself constructive. they ought to be aided, and joe biden did that yesterday. i wish we could have done $50,000, but i'm glad we got $10,000. if you were drowning in a hole, and somebody lifted you out, even in part, you'd thank them. you don't say, "why didn't you bring me all the way out?" >> majority leader chuck schumer and others agree with you, they pushed the president to make it $50,000, but they'll take what they have in front of them. sam stein, how much did the president grapple with this decision? he made the promise on the campaign trail, but he does know that it is not just republicans who have criticisms of this. it's a lot of working people, democrats, independents who feel like they're footing the bill. >> right. the question is, how much did he grapple with this? a tremendous amount of grappling. >> yeah. >> this was, you know, more than a year and a half in the making. continuous disagreements within the white house. the president getting frustrated at leaks around this stuff,

hearing from different stakeholders, an intense, internal debate about what to do on the policy merits. sort of out of the blue, to a degree, a quick decision. it was classic joe biden governance in that sense. look, i think, in the end, you ended up with a product that actually goes beyond what joe biden had initially pledged. he had pledged a $10,000 relief. he's going to go up to $20,000 for pell grant recipients. on top of that, he has these reforms that cap the percentage you pay in student loan payments based on discretionary income at 5%, which could be the biggest actual policy plank in this whole package. you know, there are going to be critics here. specifically on the right and among even allied economists who say this is the wrong time to do it. we're in the midst of this inflationary crisis. also, this doesn't do enough to actually tackle rising tuitions. it could, in fact, exacerbate

that. but, in the end, i think, ultimately, the politics of this probably do win out for biden, in that you see it poll pretty well. a lot of people are grateful, even those who already paid off their student loans say, yeah, this is the right thing to do. student loans are incredibly burdensome, and people need to get out from under them. >> you know, given the divisions in this country today that exist, it's amazing that he did it yesterday. in the face of the clamor that will surround it, no doubt. the first thing we ought to really consider is completely ignore the criticisms of people like jd vance, who we saw in a clip, and marjorie taylor greene. they are preposterous in their criticisms of it. the problem would seem to me to be the base of the democratic party, the old democratic party, largely working class people, you're always going to encounter the possibility that you're going to encourage resentment among those who have already paid their loans, who have

already helped their children get through school and paid off their loans. now, they're going to be saying, you know, hey, what about us? on the whole, though, you're absolutely right, $10,000, people clamoring for $50,000. elizabeth warren was clamoring for free college for everyone. it is a moderate position when you look at it. we're going to have to wait and see. does it add to inflation? larry summers claims it'll add to inflation, but we'll see. >> i am concerned about it adding to inflation. i don't really understand the timing, necessarily, because even politically, what's the bump? what's the point in doing this right now at this specific point. i guess what i find annoying about it is that it doesn't address the higher education cartel. it basically is infusing money into a higher education system that is basically just corrupt at this point. you look at how much tuition has just skyrocketed. >> obscene.

>> over the last 20, 30 years. i mean, my college tuition, it was -- it is three times today what it was 20 years ago. >> yeah. >> that is just absurd. it doesn't do -- that's not accessible for the majority of americans. it's absolutely obscene. >> and the other thing is, a lot of these schools we're talking about have billions and billions of dollars sitting in endowments. >> exactly. >> collecting interests for generations. >> did you have student loans? >> i did not. my mom worked to pay for my college. i was lucky. >> it took me 12 years to pay off my student loans. i can still remember. it wasn't a burden, i just didn't want to pay it off. >> sounds like you. >> rev, let's look at the political side of this. the accusations yesterday that we heard of president biden buying votes, that he wants to get young people to come out and vote in the midterms, this is, for him, a good political move, you think? >> i think in the end, it could be, but there's no guarantee.

i think that the safest political thing would have been to do nothing, which is why i give him credit for doing something and taking the risk. what are we talking about? we're talking about relieving debt, actual, real burden on people. and if you actually help people and you do that because you want their vote, that might be the way the american political system ought to work. that you do something for the voters in order to get them to vote. i mean, i think there's nothing wrong. there is something right about that. it is a lot better than trying to play to their worst senses, like his opponent in the last presidential race. you actually want to earn people's vote. i think that a return to that is a good thing. >> well, there are economic, moral, even legal arguments against forgiving student debt in this way. last year, even speaker nancy pelosi said, the president of the united states does not have the authority to cancel debt. >> people think that the

president of the united states has the power for debt forgiveness. he does not. he can postpone. he can delay. but he does not have that power. that has to be an act of congress. >> that was in july of last year. a former top lawyer at the department of education under barack obama telling "the wall street journal," it is, quote, doubtful the courts will let this stand. on the economic front, former treasury secretary larry summers, among many, arguing cancelling student debt will increase inflation by encouraging colleges to raise tuition. and a former economic adviser for president obama tweeted this, quote, for roughly half trillion dollars of gasoline on the inflationary fire that is already burning is reckless. "the wall street journal" editorial board calls it a moral hazard, writing, in part, those who will pay for this write-off are the tens of millions of americans who didn't go to college or repaid their debt or chose lower cost schools to avoid a debt trap.

this is a college graduate bailout, paid for by plumbers and fedex drivers. according to the latest census, fewer than half of american adults hold a college degree. the recent nbc news poll found debt cancellation not particularly popular. 46% of registered voters say they're more likely to vote for a candidate who supports cancelling student debt. 33% said it is less likely. let's bring into the conversation columnist of "the washington post," megan mcardle, and former treasury official and "morning joe" economic analyst, steve rattner. good morning to you both. steve, let me begin with you on the pure economics of this. what do you think this does knot economy? what do you think it does to inflation? >> first of all, willie, it'd be difficult to overstate the vastness of this program. this is a huge, huge amount of money that is going to change hands and basically be in one fell swoop of the president's pen. there aren't good estimates what

the cost will be, but let's call it something in the $500 billion range. that is pure increase in the deficit and cost of the federal government, and that's roughly twice the size of the amount of deficit reduction that was in the manchin/schumer bill just passed. in terms of the size of the spending in the manchin/schumer bill, this is larger. it is the largest, i believe, amount of money ever dispersed by an executive order. so we just have to really gasp a little bit at the scale of all of this. in terms of the economy, yes, it is going to nudge us to the inflationary side. you saw the larry summers and the jason fuhrman quotes you put up. to me, that'd not be a deal breaker. it's not ideal. we don't want to increase inflation or inflationary pressures at this time. we don't want to be increasing the size of the deficit and the size of our debt at this particular point in time. the whole point -- or one of the points of manchin/schumer was to

reduce the amount of debt through deficit reduction, not to increase it. this goes in the wrong direction on that. but i think, by far, the biggest issue is the issue of fairness that you eluded to in various other conversations. half of americans who don't go to college don't benefit from this. people like your family that worked hard, took an extra job to put their kids through college so he didn't have to graduate with debt don't get anything from this. there are substantial questions of fairness here in terms of who is going to benefit and who is going to be left without really getting any benefit from this. >> megan, your piece in "the washington post" is titled "biden's student loan fix: it's perfect for making the problem worse." there certainly are a lot of people out there this morning who feel like suckers for having worked a second job or having paid off their student loans or gone to a college maybe they thought they could afford versus one they'd have to pay off for, you know, 20 or 30 years. let's break down your piece a little bit.

what's at the core of your argument against this? >> look, i agree with mr. rattner. there are a lot of reasons this is problematic. it causes fairness problems for people who worked hard to pay off debt or put kids through school without debt. it also is going to create pressure for future such bailouts. you look at the people who are enrolling in college next year, right? they are getting the reduction to a 5% rate on their income-based payment, but they're not getting the $10,000. they are going to look at that and say, tuition is still going up. this is unfair. they are going to say to the administration, what about me? you're kind of creating this pressure to keep doing this over and over again, and it's not fixing. it is not only not fixing the problem of rising college costs, it is actually making that problem worse. so there is reasonable evidence that, in fact, subsidizing student loan debt, you know, it

seems like a great idea. it allows people to say, look, you're going to be making a lot more money in the future. let's let you bring a little of the income forward and use it to pay your tuition. in the same way we do this with mortgages and car loans and business loans. but the problem is that colleges can respond to that by saying, oh, you can pay more, let me raise tuition. that has been one of the things driving the last, you know, 40 years of tuition increases, is this ability to pay more. so by making it even easier to borrow money, the thing i said in the column is, this is kind of like trying to quit smoking but switching to unfiltered cigarettes. >> rev, what about the fairness question? i'll let you take it to megan. the majority of americans don't have a four-year college degree, and they're saying, why am i paying for people who went to college, took out big loans, got it wiped out in tax increases, in this half a trillion dollars, potentially, that has to be spent to cover it. what do you say to that? >> i mean, i think you understand that feeling. but in the same way, i think that a lot of people would say,

i'm glad to see people may not have to go through what i went through. i mean, it is kind of really tricky to say, i went through two jobs so i want everybody to have to go through two jobs. i think it is probably the more mature way to say, i'm glad people don't have to go through what i went through. but i think, megan, where i agree with you, and i want you to elaborate, is where we put pressure on those institutions to deal with the higher tuitions and to deal with what they are doing to try to meet the hour. i happen to think the way the president moved yesterday was good in terms of direction. i wish he'd gone further. but i think that it does not address the escalating college prices or college -- the amounts they're getting for tuitions and all. i think there needs to be more focus on how we kind of bring that in. >> well, i think that this is a huge problem. no one really has a very good idea about how to control the

cost of college. so what we have done continually is say, look, this is a really big problem. i know, let's increase the subsidies. and especially when you think, you know, college professors, administrators, those are key democratic constituencies. so i think on the party, you have the pressure to increase the subsidies, but you definitely have a lot of pushback if you want to go in and say, hey, you know what? you have too many administrators. you have to cut that back. you have too many, you know, of these amenities. you have to cut them back. i know they help you be competitive with other colleges, but we can't afford to keep subsidizing this forever. kind of expecting the democratic party to find a way to do that, i think, is difficult. i think there is a reason we have dealt with this continually. what are the democratic proposals? they're proposals to put more money into colleges, not to start taking some of the costs out. >> steve, on this particular issue, and it is a tough issue,

the cost of tuition at some universities, you could be spending $50,000, $60,000, $70,000 a year on tuition at the universities, some of them. do you have any ideas? do you know anyone who has any ideas on how to cap the tuition cost increases that occur at these universities? especially, a lot of these schools get enormous sums of government money to subsidize the programs they have within the university. any ideas on that? >> mike, one of the ironies of the college tuition issue is that college tuition, as everyone here pointed out, has gone up very fast, faster than inflation, taking a higher share of family incomes for a very long time. yet, ironically, people see value in that, and they've been willing to pay for it. if you look at applications to private education, in particular, ivy league schools and so forth, which charge the highest tuitions, those applications hit record numbers pretty much every year. they've escalated at an enormous rate.

people see value in this and, therefore, the schools feel that they can raise their services, raise their tuition, and that that's what people want. i think it is an important point to recognize that this program or programs like this do encourage, in effect, more raising of tuition, because you're subsidizing the students. other than the government coming in and somehow controlling college tuition, which i'm not sure any of us, at least i would not be particularly in favor of, this is what happens. can i make, quickly, though, one other point that i've been thinking about in this context? you'll remember in 2009, we passed $75 billion of homeowner relief as part of the response to the financial crisis. as a result of that, literally the day after, a cnbc reporter started a rant that turned into the tea party. it was all over these fairness issues. it was over the question of someone who had bought a house

he couldn't afford, put on too much mortgage debt, gone to disney world, whatever, and now is being bailed out by the government, versus someone who acted responsibly. i agree with what the rev said, that this is a different issue in the sense that people are borrowing this money to go to college, and that is a responsible thing to do, in a way, but this basic issue of fairness that gave rise to the tea party, in fact, is going to be something i think we hear an awful lot about in the coming days. >> well, and you already are. megan, curious what you think about how this plays out politically. you've had even democrats like tim ryan, who is running for the senate in ohio, before the president even made the announcement, coming out against it. he knows it'd cost him votes in that state. >> this is a really interesting moment. because no one can really figure -- that i've spoken to at least, no one has a good idea of how much this is going to help the democrats. it might well hurt them. the problem is, the people that are most avid for this are kind of young, very politically

engaged voters who have put a lot of pressure on the administration, successfully, obviously. the problem is, those people already vote. they're solidly in the democratic camp. they're already solidly turning out at higher rates, you know, educated voters in general turn out at higher rates than non-educators voters. young voters don't turn out that much at all. so you have two groups where you're like, they're either going to vote for us or not come out. how many people is this really moving to the polls? i am somewhat skeptical this is going to be long-term helpful for the administration. obviously, he made it a promise. he was under fierce pressure. a lot of democrats in high-cost areas like new york were putting a lot of pressure on the president to do this. i think he eventually just said, okay, let's do it. >> we'll see how it plays out. at the end of the day, 43 million people will have a little easier time getting through their day. columnist at "the washington post," megan mccardle, and economic analyst steve rattner. fascinating conversation. thank you both for being here. we're going to talk much, much more over the course of the morning. coming up, congresswoman liz

cheney says she could run for president, in part, to stop donald trump from returning to the white house. but a new poll suggests her potential candidacy could have the opposite effect. we will run through the numbers next on "morning joe." and democrats in congress just passed a law to lower the cost of medicine. the inflation reduction act caps the cost of insulin at $35 a month for seniors. that's more savings for us. in three seconds, janice will win a speedboat. bingo! i'm moving to the lake... gotta sell the house... ooh! that's a lot of work. ooh! don't worry. skip the hassels and sell directly to opendoor. bingo! when life's doors open, we'll handle the house. [zoom call] ...pivot... work bye. vacation hi! book with priceline. 'cause when you save more, you can “no way!” more. no wayyyy. no waaayyy! no way! [phone ringing] hm. no way! no way! priceline. every trip is a big deal.

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"the washington post" is reporting an email sent by the national archives and records administration to former president donald trump's staff months after trump left office expressed concern about the return of documents taken from the white house and noted trump's own staff had agreed they should be returned. in an email sent to trump lawyers in may of 2021, the lawyer for the national archives, gary stern, wrote, it is also our understanding that roughly two dozen boxes of original presidential records were kept in the residence of the white house over the course of president trump's last year in office and have not been transferred to nara, despite a determination by pat cipollone in the final days of the administration that they need to be.

specifically, stern references at least two well-known documents the archives knew to be missing. correspondence between trump and north korean leader kim jong-un. also a letter from president obama. writing, quote, we know things are very chaotic, as they always are in the course of a one-term transition, but it is absolutely necessary we obtain an account for all presidential records. stern did not state specifically in the email which documents the archives thought were in the boxes, but cited the correspondence as an example of something then president trump requested just before the end of the administration. in the email sent to some of trump's lawyers but not to cipollone, stern refers to the fact that he also raised the issue with another trump lawyer, scott gast, prior to the president leaving office. we'll talk to the reporter behind that story coming up in a bit. meanwhile, as questions swirl about whether outgoing wyoming congresswoman liz cheney will pose a challenge to former president trump's expected 2024

presidential bid, new polling suggests her candidacy actually would hurt the current president more than his predecessor. in the survey from yahoo! news and ugov said if the 2024 presidential election was a two-way race between biden and trump, they'd back the current president, said 46%. when cheney enters the mix as an independent, trump wins with 40% of the votes. 17% of voters do say they are undecided. following her republican primary defeat last week, cheney said she'd consider a presidential run. she's not said, though, whether that would be as a republican or as an independent. this was the suspicion of many people, elise, that if she ran for president trying to take down president trump, she might actually take down president biden. >> exactly. because who would be the voters

who would move from donald trump to liz cheney? not that many people if you're a hard core committed donald trump voter. you don't just move over to liz cheney. it is taking never trumpers who then don't vote for joe biden. maybe she could really damage him in the republican primary, and her presence in the republican primary would stunt trump, much the way that marco rubio was taken out by chris christie, perhaps, but in the general, does not help joe biden at all. >> sam stein, this is why many democratic strategists are saying, applause for you, liz cheney, standing up to donald trump, leading this fight against his attempt to overturn the 2020 election, but, please, do not run for president. >> well, let's start by stipulating that this is painfully early for 2024 conversation. >> you think? >> i hope. i hope. but i think i agree with all the analysis. it's hard to see how she could impact an election in the way she wants while running in that election. elise is absolutely right, her candidacy would draw support

away from biden by getting never trumpers to vote for her, not him. i think the damage she could inflict, if that's what she wants to do, and all indications are that's what she wants to do, would be through the form of a primary bid. even that would be so long shot at this juncture. my suspicion is she knows this stuff. she is wise politically and understands how this works. she ends up doing something different than running for president, maybe launching an organization of some sort that could do ads or organizing in the course of the republican primary and ultimately in the general election, to try to defeat donald trump, which she has stated is her preeminent goal at this juncture. >> she said, my goal is not to be a spoiler but prevent donald trump from ever stepping in the white house again. maybe that comes from the outside rather than running in the race. >> or if she chooses, if she just decides she has to run, run in the primaries. i would love to see some

republican primary debates with liz cheney against donald trump. i would really love to see. she could really weaken him with body punches from the inside. but i think one thing that we shouldn't miss about this poll is it does say that, on a head-to-head, and i agree that we're painfully early here, talking about it, but on a head-to-head, biden beats trump. i think what the democrats need to look at is who other than biden can beat trump? according to this poll, he can beat him by four points. i don't know there's another democrat that we could poll that can do that. so all of this age talk, we need to start looking at, but the polls say he can beat trump. who else can beat trump? while we're on cheney land here, the democrats need to do a little inspection on who they have in their backup here, if biden does not keep his word and run. so far, he saying, and i think he really means that he is going to run. >> who exactly is trotting

out of the bullpen, mike? that is the question. that's something president biden said himself. the white house has said, i see all these polls that say 70% of democrats don't want me to run again, but i also see the polls that say 98% of you would vote for me again against donald trump because i've already beaten him. that's their argument. >> as i listen to this, i'm in a wistful mood, wondering, will we ever be rid of the division, the disruption, the demagoguery that is donald trump? we talk about him in one way or another every single day, sometimes all day long. the damage that this man has done to this country, to the institutions of government, to the business of politics and elections is almost incomprehensible to me at this time. you know, we're never talking about a republican versus a democrat straight up. we're always inserting and forced to insert donald trump in almost every conversation.

i don't know about you people, i don't know about the people out there, i am so sick of listening to his name, talking about him, hearing him be referenced, his every move being followed. how did this one individual, as corrupt as he is, as he has been proven to be nearly all of his adult life, so dominate the business of politics in this country? >> because of his crime syndicate, it is not going to end for quite some time, hate to say. >> i know. >> for media, his whole string of things, now the revenge of the librarians is happening. they might be the ones who actually take him down. >> national archives. >> at the end of the day, go national archives. but we're going to have -- you know, this is going to be such an ongoing story. i do think, though, we should refer to the republican party as the trump party, just as you did earlier. >> yes. >> that makes much more sense. you look at the context of who

some of these candidates are going into midterms, and those are trump candidates. they're not who gop leadership wanted to have running for office and losing senate seats, basically. >> but i think that, to barnicle's point, i think one of the reasons we have this endless conversation about trump is, from my view, trump is a symptom of a lot of suppressed feelings that had never been brought to the forefront, that people now are seeing him bring out how they feel, as ugly and as archaic as they are. i think we're seeing them expressed because he's hit something that people really have felt. now, i don't think he feels a lot of it himself. i think he's playing on that because he is the ultimate con man. but i think that is why he is having this lasting effect, is that a lot of people are saying,

"yeah, that's how i really wanted to say it. yeah, he represents me." the fact that a guy that has no lifestyle similar to them at all is the one that brought this out is the irony of it, which is why i think he's the perfect symbol to deal with these ugly feelings once and for all. because the demise of trump, and there will be a demise, you got it from me here, whether it is long term or short term, there will be a demise. nothing that wicked can last forever in my opinion. >> the reason we're talking about him is, you can't wish him away. he is likely coming back and running for president again. he'll be back with us. sorry, mike. coming up, another deadly attack in ukraine as russian rockets kill dozens of people at a train station. we have new reporting on the ground in ukraine next on "morning joe." finding the perfect developer isn't easy. but, at upwork, we found her. she's in prague, between the perfect cup of coffee and her museum of personal computers. and you can find her, and millions of other talented pros, right now

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90% of the money goes to the out-of-state corporations who wrote it. very little is left for the homeless. don't let corporations exploit homelessness to pad their profits. vote no on 27. man 1: have you noticed the world is on fire? record heat waves? does that worry you? well, it should. because this climate thing is your problem. man 2: 40 years ago, when our own scientists at big oil predicted that burning fossil fuels could lead to catastrophic effects, we spent billions to sweep it under the rug. man 3: so we're going to be fine. but you might want to start a compost pile, turn down the ac. you got a lot of work to do because your kids are going to need it. three american service members suffered minor injuries in two separate rocket attacks in syria, according to u.s.

central command. a pair of facilities that housed u.s. troops in northeast syria began taking rocket fire yesterday afternoon. one service member was treated and released. two others were said to be under evaluation for minor injuries. a u.s. military official tells nbc news the united states responded with strikes from apache helicopters, destroying three vehicles and killing two or three of iranian-backed militants believed to be responsible for yesterday's attacks. in ukraine, at least 25 people were killed, another 31 injured, when russian rockets hit a train station in the central part of the country. joining us now from kyiv with more on this story, nbc news foreign correspondent meagan fitzgerald. what more can you tell us? >> reporter: well, we know that this attack happened yesterday in the eastern part of the country, dnipro, not part from the donetsk area. 25 people, as you mentioned, were killed in what is being seen as the deadliest attack

since the middle of july, talking several weeks. the country was expecting some sort of attack. this one particularly sad because we know children were among those who died. in a separate attack not far from the railroad, we know a missile hit a home, killing an 11-year-old boy. there were attacks across the country. in the west and even just outside of kyiv, we know there was an explosion targeting a residential building. look, this is a country that's been on high alert. there is intelligence from the u.s., along with ukrainian intelligence, suggesting that the russians are preparing a particularly vicious attack. members of the community here in kyiv were told to stay inside their homes yesterday and to work remotely, not to have mass gatherings as the country celebrated its 31st independence day. but this threat is not over. the president of ukraine saying that people need to stay vigilant. they need to pay attention to those air-raid sirens when they go off and take cover. because the thought here is that

there could be an attack at any moment. willie. >> yeah, what's the -- just the color and feel on the ground in kyiv? as you reported and told us all week that there was tension because of this anniversary, the 31st anniversary of independence from the soviet union, that vladimir putin may take that as an opportunity to attack. how are the people in ukraine holding up? how are they feeling? >> reporter: willie, it is a great question. you know, we've been speaking with people here. the ukrainians are resilient people. they are convinced that they are going to beat the russians and push them out of their country. but, look, people are scared. people are on edge. we know ahead of the independence day yesterday, a lot of people here in kyiv left the city because there was concern there could be an attack here in the city. we know that, obviously, people stayed home from work. they didn't gather as they would for their independence day, just like in the united states we have festivals, there's fireworks, gatherings,

barbecues. it is a similar situation here. but yesterday was more of a somber day. it was a more of a low key day. not a lot of people out on the streets, enjoying the day. it wasn't a holiday. people didn't have off of work. they are on a heightened state of alert here because they realize that, at any moment, at any time, the russians could strike, willie. >> the united states yesterday on that independence day announcing $3 billion more of military assistance to ukraine, as the fight continues. nbc's meagan fitzgerald in kyiv for us this morning. thanks so much. coming up, the school board in uvalde, texas, fires its school police chief after the botched response to the mass shooting there. those details next on "morning joe." families are struggling with inflation and congress and president biden just did something about it. signing the inflation reduction act. it means lower drug costs for millions and ramps up production of american-made clean energy, bringing down monthly energy costs for families. and it's the boldest action on climate change we've ever seen.

it means lower costs for us and a brighter future for them. a historic win that will bring relief to millions of people. congress and president biden got it done.

in a unanimous vote last night, uvalde, texas's, school board approved the termination of school police chief arradondo. he and the responding officers faced fierce criticism for the

slow response to the deadly school shooting that killed 21 people, most of them children. nbc's priscilla thompson has more. >> reporter: this morning in uvalde, embattled police chief arradondo has been fired. >> all in students and families quickly running high. >> i have messages for pete arredondo and other law enforcement that were there. turn in your badge and step down you don't deserve to wear one. >> our babies are dead, our teachers are dead, our parents are dead. >> determination comes three months after a game claimed the lives of 19 children and two teachers at robb elementary. the uncle and guardian said victims like uziah deserve justice. >> he's never go to graduate from high school and his first date and first car. he will forever be 10 years old.

>> reporter: pete arredondo in a lengthy 17-page statement sent to the school board his lawyer accusing the board of an unconstitutional public lynching. writing, the board has not followed proper procedure and refuses to provide a written complaint against arredondo saying they fails to meet the standard of conduct for law enforcement officers and similarly situated in texas. officials say it took authorities 77 minutes engage the shooter. the texas legislature releasing a fact-finding report last month. faulting the police response for egregiously poor decision-making. adding officers failed to prioritize saving the lives of innocent victims over their own safety. in that report, arredondo telling the committee, he didn't

consider himself the incident commander. but uvalde families grad to see some results even three months later. >> we did something. we got something accomplished finally. >> priscilla thompson reporting. >> coming up, new reaction to the president's plan to wipe out significant amounts of student loan debt for millions of americans. we'll be joined by the head of naacp straight ahead on morning joe. on morning joe. so we need something super distinctive... dad's work, meet daughter's playtime. thankfully, meta portal auto pans and zooms to keep you in frame. and the meeting on track. meta portal. the smart video calling device that makes work from home work for you.

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just before the top of hour. a federal jury has awarded kobe bryant's wife $16 million after photographs and pikes were never made public but the jury awarded her damages for emotional distress. national correspondent miguel

almaguer has the story. >> reporter: she kept in court. ordering l.a. county to pay the widow of kobe bryant $16 million for past and future emotional distress and suffering. after the verdict, bryant walked past a crush of media, later posting on instagram, all for you. i love you. justice for kobe and gigi. >> one copter down with medium brush. >> her lawsuit months after the 020 hillside helicopter crash that killed kobe bryant, their daughter gigi and 7 others. l.a. county confirming first responders took or shared gruesome photos of the victims for personal use. those pictures according to testimony were later shown at bars and even a banquet by sheriff's deputies and firefighters. during the ten days of testimony, when bryant took the

stand, she said i felt blindsided and devastated and hurt. i trusted them not to do these things. a sobbing bryant, after the photo leak, i have two choices to try to live my life or end it. the jury also awarding co-plaintiff chris chester who lost his wife and daughter $15 million. >> it sounds crazy when you have a $31 million verdict but in a way the county should have a sigh of relief because it could have been so much bigger. >> reporter: during closing statements, county lawyers argued the pictures never became public. there is a simple truth that could not be ignored. there is no public dissemination. the verdict coming down on 8/24, kobe bryant day in los angeles and a day after he would have celebrated his 44th birthday. the jury deciding two families who lost loved ones were victimized by the very people called in to help. >> some small measure of justice

there for the families of the nine people killed in those crashes. nbc's miguel almaguer with this report. it is just about the top of the report. the fourth hour of "morning joe." coming up on 9:00 in the east and 6:00 out west. and another busy hour including a new report from "the washington post" revealing president trump's lawyers agreed the classified documents he took with him from the white house upon leaving office needed to be returned. over a year before the fbi search of mar-a-lago. one the rotters behind that scoop will be here with us. and we're following flooding in the south. where historic rainfall has battered central and southern mississippi. and california is a step closer to banning the sale of new gas-powered vehicles. we'll tell you when that could go into effect. and later this hour, bill nye the science guy will be here on

his new show on peacock that explores how we could avert impending global disasters. that is all ahead. but we begin with president biden's ambitious plan to cncel thousands of student loan debt for millions of borrowers. 43 million people are set to have a portion of their student loan debt erased and 20 million could clear all of their student debt following yesterday's executive action by the president. he acknowledged it is not a perfect solution but called it a responsible step toward addressing a broken system. >> not everything i'm announcing today is going to make everybody happy. something is too much, i find it interesting how some of hi republican friends who voted for those tax cuts and others think that we shouldn't be helping these folks. something is too little. but i believe my plan is responsible and fair. and it focuses the benefit on