good, morning it is sunday august 20. eight 9 am in the, east 6 am in the. wes i'm ali velshi. ever since the fbi conducted a search of mar-a-lago in august, eight new and damning details have emerged about the twice impeached insurrectionist ex presidents reckless handling of highly sensitive documents, which contain some of this country's most closely guarded secrets. we have learned about the national archives, and the justice department to repeated requests for trump to return material that properly it belonged to the u.s. government. we have subsequently learned of trump's yearlong attempt to style stonewall those agencies from retrieving those materials. we know that 184 unique and classified documents were among the first batch of documents recovered by the national archives in january of this year. some of them included information that could compromise the identities of clandestine human sources. including, possibly, those who work as informants for the

american governments. recently unsealed court documents also revealed that the department of justice is looking into donald trump's potential violations of the presidential records act. the espionage act. and of obstruction of justice. but what happens now? will donald trump be prosecuted? should he be prosecuted? and if it, is one of the consequences of that? even though but half of the 38-page affidavit that was unsealed on friday was redacted, there was even redacted information in there to generate serious discussion about a prosecution. that brings up some hard questions and scenarios, with which the justice department and all of us have to grapple. for one thing, there is no doubt that if he is indicted, the trump loyalist faction of the republican party will seek some sort of retribution. a number of them have already been quick to echo the former presidents baseless accusations that he is being politically persecuted. the potential for violence has

to be taken seriously as well. trump hard-line supporters have already stormed the capitol. even threatening the lives of government officials inside the halls of congress. threats against the fbi have increased in the days immediately after it conducted its search of mar-a-lago and august 8th. three days after that, a man armed with a rifle tried to breach the fbi's field office in cincinnati. which led to an hours long standoff that resulted in the man's death. even the national archives, administrative agency tasked with preserving government records, has become the target of trump supporters of vitriol. it has become so disruptive the acting archivist stuber walsh set out an agency why email recently, saying, quote, the national archives have received messages from the public accusing us of corruption and conspiring against the former president. while congratulating the national archives for bringing him down. neither is accurate, or welcome. this is a delicate moment for the united states, despite this possible undesirable outcomes.

it's also clear that if donald trump faces consequences, the possibility remains that he or people who share his views and detectives could further damage our democracy. and our national security. after all, we are talking about a man who is already been impeached twice. he is currently facing multiple criminal and civil investigations in multiple jurisdictions. not to mention his long and shady history from before he ever enter the political stage. but that same man remains the most popular and powerful figure in the republican party. who can still feasibly become its presidential nominee again in 2024. who can still feasibly become the president of the united states. and if all of these investigations and evidence of wrongdoing get swept under the rug, and he wins the president say, what happens then? joining me now to discuss this is the former united states attorney joyce vance. she is the coast of the sisters in law podcast. and any clogged junior professor and chair of the partner of african american

studies at princeton university. host of history's office podcast. both etienne joyce are msnbc contributors. good morning to both of you. thank you for joining me. for this really important conversation. sunday morning, we can get past a little bit of all the news we have been covering all week. joyce. and it is basic level this is a conversation about just versus the consequence of trying to pursue that justice. you have had to face this as a prosecutor. you have to make decisions sometimes about, i know they should do, but is that actually what i should do? >> well, the decision that you always make, you're north star, is to do the right thing. and although the sounds simplistic and idealistic, ultimately that is the whole point of having a justice department and living in a rule of law system where no minutes above the law. when you have the sort of external considerations, will people come after you, does somebody want to kill you?

or harm you as a result of the prosecution. you are trump's prosecution is to satisfy those considerations. we do not have a system where a strongman can threaten violence against prosecutors or against the country. and avoid prosecution. the doj's job is to decide whether they have sufficient evidence to obtain and sustain a conviction. and if it is a national interest and no other form can provide justice, then it is the doj's job to go ahead. >> so, eddie let's say it is even bigger than that. joyce is making a good point. prosecutors cannot make decisions based on personal threats or threats against their environments. police don't make those decisions about that. but now we are talking about the. country we saw a guy who is going to traditional been fbi office, and ended up dead after an hours long standoff with police. we have seen threats against archivists, of all things. we have seen threats against democracy itself. and there are people who still

use, and they shouldn't, but they use the term civil war and some of these right-wing social media sites. this could be bigger. arresting donald trump or charging him could make him a martyr for a cause. which could lead to decades of danger in this country. do you think about it differently? or do choices valid points still hold? >> i think that joyce's point holds, but i do want to be mindful, ali, of these broader considerations that you mentioned here. we have a tragic choice. either you hold donald trump accountable or you confront the possibility of escalated political violence. we need to be, clear i think, that political violence has always been a feature of the american political landscape. we think about the mid 20th century. you think about that dreaded year of 1968. in april. marc king is killed. robert kennedy is killed. but beyond these extraordinary moments, there is a kind of violence downstream.

election workers being attacked, ordinary folk being attacked. i think we need to be clear about that. and i think we all need to understand in this, moments ali, that we are finding people who are being self radicalized as they are kind of engaging on a line. and we see these people who aren't belonging to organizations, engaging in violence, or being threatened to engage in violence. i think you are absolutely right in this regard. but also i want to say this really quickly. we have to be very careful of collapsing all of this with donald trump. trump is a kind of symbolic figure who is representing these focal believes that they are in a cultural and demographic threat. that underlying cause is not going away, even if donald trump is locked up. >> it is a very valid point. joyce, on friday night we had a conversation with your sister in law college ill wine-banks, he was very involved in watergate. because i said there is a water gates enis to this particular crime. we know that often people charged with talking once they shouldn't have to not face much

consequence. but through the course of water, banks as it unfolded, both the public republicans and elected republicans decided that there was a line that had been crossed, and they turned on richard nixon. they decided they were not going to continue to defend him in this case. that has not happened with elected republicans or the republican party. if it, hands it might have some influence on whatever you just said. it might have filter down to a whole bunch of people and said, stop this fight, it's not worth continuing to defend donald trump and his alok. >> the republicans bear more than a small share of responsibility for where we are, and what a gate really is an excellent example. because the republican party all but vanished nixon from future public life, and that could change the calculus here. if donald trump were to announce any sort of future political runs, if you were to agree to the part from public life like an extended, then we

might be looking at a different public scenario. in terms of the risk for violence. but he hasn't done, that he has no propensity to do that, unless he is compelled to do so. and today's republican party is not going to act into that space. and that, frankly, is a calculus that prosecutors can engage and. because sometimes when you are involved in, let's say, a public corruption case, where you have a senator or governor or someone who is involved in taking rubs or other activities, one of the legitimate considerations is whether justice can be done by removing that person from office or taking away from them the power to engage in any future harms. as long as donald trump has the capacity to return to public life, and as you point out, he appears to be very popular, if not the front runner for the 2024 nomination in the republican party. then, the doj has to consider whether there can be a measure of justice without prosecution. as long as he still has the

range. >> i want to just expand that thought you had last time. it's true. donald trump is as much asymptomatic as a cause of everything that is happening in this country in the last five years. what do you do about the rest of it? this may be a -- you are almost making the point of this is an assigned question. you can prosecute donald trump but you still have this deep into cultural war that we have had in generations to a deeper political polarization than we have had in generations, is there any road that we can follow to alleviate that? >> that is a central question, to my, mind ali. it's a moral as well as a political question. we have to make a choice as to who we are going to be as a country. there are those who are crumbling for an idea, that we must remain a white christian nation, america. and they are in some ways expense-ing terror and panic about the changing cultural and demographic trends of the nation. we are gonna have to have that

hard conversation. we are gonna have that hard work of actually building a multi generational democracy. remember the 1840s 1850s, ali. they know nothing party cited riots on the basis of -- against irish catholics and italians. he reviewed his nonwhite. we've seen this in the 1960. this is a part of our history. what has happened is that we have left those folks who engaged in the violence. we did not hold them to account. we never resolve the underlying issue. we have to deal with this idea that america must remain a white nation. we are not. that and we have to figure out how we are going to be together differently. that is the only way we are going to get beyond -- other side of this and be about our nation. r si>> one important conversati. thanks to both of you for being with us this sunday. morning joyce vance former attorney for the northern district of alabama. msnbc contributor, host of the sisters in law. podcasts idealogue to, your professor and chair of the departed african american studies at princeton

university. and msnbc contributor. still to come on velshi. conversation crucial getting to president biden on board with the forgiving of student loan debt. congressman -- talking to me about her role to forgive up to $20,000 per person in student debt, even though she wish that never had been a lot higher. first, after the break, extraordinary new nasa mission scheduled to take a dramatic first step tomorrow, as united states lays the groundwork's. groundwork's like #6 the boss. pepperoni kicks it off with meatballs smothered in rich marinara. don't forget the fresh mozzarella. don't you forget who the real boss is around here. it's subway's biggest refresh yet.

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planned, they spaced issues going to launch its maiden flight of the sls mega rockets tomorrow from the kennedy space center in florida. it is known as the artemis 1 moon mission, it has been years in the making. we will send it uncrewed ryan capsule around the moon and back. this mission is going to mark a

major milestone furnaces artemis program, which aims to put the first woman and another man on the us earliest 2025. lindsey reiser joins me in the studio, which is something that hasn't happened for a very long time. this is huge. i was born in the year that nasa landed on the moon, and people walked in the. moon and they have not done that sense, when they've gotten down there in 50 years. what is this all about? >> this isn't your generation of space exploration. there are some lofty goals including the ones who talked about. we talk about building a lunar base, building a floating base around the moon also, and also mars. let's take a look at the rendering of what's the orbit around the block staff of ryan is going to look like. this is 6 million pounds, this rocket. he stands 32 stories tall. the boosters actually generate more thrust each one, then 14 commercial jumbo airliners. those four engines are the most efficient ever built. they consume enough propellant

can't drain a swimming pool in a minute. an hour and a half after the, launch a right is now on a lunar trajectory. and ryan is going to travel in distant retrograde around the moon. traveling nearly 1000 times farther from the distance between the iss and earth. the return is really a test here for the heat shields around the. ryan protected for the nearly 5000 degrees fahrenheit. then we will see two initial parachutes deployed in less than 20 minutes, when arrival go from brock 32 to 0 at slash town. >> these are fantastic, nominations obviously. it's not just, video this is actually happen. but this everything about this. people like me who grew up watching rocket launchers and they try to launchers, there is some sadness that these things don't have the energy that they used to have for everybody. this is going to feel like an old-fashioned rocket launch, and it is actually bigger. it will be bigger and no easier and more impressive to watch

this whole thing. so it is not just a return scientifically and engineering ali, it is a return to the glory of space. >> it certainly is. it is not necessarily just a return. there is going to be new technology. take a look at this orbit. here we have a riot blasting off, this is the lunar trajectory. first there is a very close fly by of the moon, within about 60 miles, and then there is going to be this distant space. this is distant rush for grade. this is further than any human spacecraft built for humans will have gone. then we get the lunar gravity assist, from the winds gravity. then back on the course for earth. really, it is the technology that is. new bigger, better, greater, hotter, faster, all of that. >> like everything else, they to parts that matter are the launch, which you can see and feel. i remember being on the shuttle launch, in all my experience i have never felt anything like that. and then there is that return. those heat shields. that is the thing that they always have to get right.

because once you re-enter the atmosphere, that is going to be the part. and until you see those troops come down, that is kind of its. then you watch that splash without and guys like me watch until the last second. until they get everybody out. it is going to be amazing to watch. >> i want to talk we have some time about some of the things that they are going to be testing. because if you think about the idea of getting humans, one, day tumors, we have to suppress everything. the radiation, the isolation, the confinement, the sheer distance. this is not a three-month trip, it is a three-hour trip. the lack of gravity, the six months track incompletely weightlessness. what effect is that going to have on the astronauts? and also the hostile environments. they have to recycle everything, even their. waste there will be some mannequins on board to ryan's. well wearing radiation vests and sensors everywhere, to test for radiation vibration. >> for all the science and engineering involved, these two are the hard. once because these are human conditions. the isolation in the confinement. >> right, behavior. >> the distance from earth.

i don't like when they go away from home for too many days. >> and that's you! you are always on the road. >> i am. i think a little time. i travel more than most people i. now going to mars and going into deep space, these things are -- they are engineering issues and their human issues. >> and you cannot turn. back >> you cannot turn. back you cannot decide your board. you cannot decide you're scared with the. holding thank you. great to see you back in person, like the old days. makes me feel a little bit like normalcy is returning. lindsey reiser, msnbc. right here in the studio for us. coming up, millions letting a huge sigh of relief and present biden announced last week that he is giving up to $20,000 in student loan debt. coming up next, my conversation with the massachusetts congresswoman ayanna pressley. there she. is she was instrumental in making that biden campaign promise into reality. ise into reality $30. (daughter) i've already told everyone! (nurse) wait... did you say verizon for just $30? (mom) it's their best unlimited price ever. (cool guy) $30...that's awesome. (dad) yeah, and it's from the most reliable 5g network in america.

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federal student loan debt, for individuals making up to $125,000 a year. and for couples bringing in $250,000 or less, annually. borrowers who have qualified for federally backed pella grants will be eligible to have as much as $20,000 of their federal student loan balance erased. this goes for undergrad, rounds graduate school loans, and parent plus loans. right on cue, republicans took to social media to slam the program and calling it a giveaway for the rich. and it unfair handouts. but they are not the only ones crying foul. some progressives say that the amount of debt forgiven is not enough to make a debt for many americans. but some moderate democrats in tough midterm races have been trying to distance themselves from the student loan decision as well. worry that there is going to be a backlash against debt forgiveness, in states where districts were college attainment is low. no matter how you slice, it the bill is set to help tens of millions of americans. according to the white house, this war could provide debt relief for up to 43 million

americans who have student loans. 20 million american kids will have their debt right out entirely. my next guest was instrumental in the push to get president biden to pursue student loan forgiveness. although she initially sought significantly higher numbers. the democratic congresswoman ayanna pressley joins me now. she represents the seventh congressional district in massachusetts, covering most of the boston area. she's a member of the house financial services committee. congresswoman pressley, good to see you this. morning thank you for being with us. have you fought so hard for, this having seen the results, and now having seen the various embraces and criticisms of its, what is the way in which we present this to someone? >> look. obviously we would have loved to have been your ambitious in this. we want to advance policies and responses to the everyday struggles and needs of people to go as far and as deep as the heart. that being said, i work is not done. the fight is not done.

and for us to get us to invest in higher education is the public good that is, with hbcus and pell grants for community college. state laws are going to cost some peoples lives. we cannot give short trip to the, real meaningful, transformative relief that 43 million people will feel, disproportionately black borrowers. >> let me talk about that for a second. you and i have often talked about this. the historic inequalities, wealth inequalities between black americans and others. i spoke to audrey perry yesterday from brooke owens. here's a little of what he told me about this. >> turning to closing racial gaps, $10,000 of relief is negligible when closing the gap. $20,000 does a little damage. my colleague call rumor and i found the more that you illuminate, the more you close the racial wealth gap. by capping it 125, 000, what

you are essentially doing is listing the many middle income and upper middle income people of color and women who i'm making high incomes and -- then everything they were told to doing terms of getting an education. but they have significantly less well. >> i know you share some of that view. this was not your policy, has not been your policy. if it, was numbers would probably be higher. but how do you process that criticism? >> ali, it is important to understand where we started here. two years ago this was an issue that people through those fringe. about who is impacted by this nearly two trillion dollar crisis. there was a false mix characterization that this would be regressive an impact, only benefiting white graduate students who went to universities. in two years, we have moved this international discourse to a response by the biden administration, to the

coalition of voters elected him. and mitigating the hurts that people are experience saying in the midst of a pandemic induced recession, and still feeling the effects of inflation. black americans have historically been locked out of federal relief programs from the homestead act to the gi bill, to the new deal. today is the 59th anniversary of the march on washington for jobs and freedom, a march for economic justice. this is an important step in the right direction. black borrowers, disproportionately our pal grant recipients. one in four black borrowers will have their debt zero out, also just want to say this, i am not using the term forgiveness because debtors have done nothing wrong. we've been told we live in a meritocracy, education is the equalizer, in that meritocracy this was supposed, higher education was supposed to close the racial wealth gap.

it is only exacerbated. and that's why you see in the hvac getting presidents using funds to cancel student debt. that's when two years we've been able to build a coalition to include some organizations like the naacp and educators and grassroots organizers and organized labor. so, this movement has worked because people share their stories. we held the administration accountable for promise made on the campaign trail, they have been responsive to that movement over the last two years. >> what do you make of the criticism from people, most in the right, but some democrats, about how this is inflationary? we're gonna get all this money to people, is gonna cause inflation? let me tell you, before i answer, might be about this, we don't talk about inflation which people get tax cuts, we don't worry about the fact that giving people tax cut on the new airplane they have to buy is gonna be inflationary, boy, you give $10,000 to people who are struggling, you have to think a lot about that apparently. >> well, i mean, many economists have already dismissed that, the impact on

inflation is minimal, again, this democratic majority, this peoples house is acting with the inflation reduction act. we're beginning to turn a corner there. in order for us to have a robust recovery from this pandemic and this recession, to leave no one in our family committee behind, especially the most marginalized, this student debt relief is an important step in the right direction. again, our fight continues. we cannot give short to the fact that 40 million people slept a little bit better the day that this announcement was rolled out and woke up feeling a little bit more hopeful. and, the student loan payment clause, which we also fought for, that will go on for december 31st, it will allow us to see in realtime as people began to apply in mid october for income very fecundation and then in 4 to 6 weeks after that, actually feel the impact of this relief. we'll see in realtime how that's going. we cannot give -- to the impact that people be

feeling, a lot of people are getting calls and texts all day, disproportionately from black borrowers since this announcement saying, thank you. >> democratic representative, ayanna pressley of massachusetts, i say thank you to you for your time as always. as always. the successful drive to end abortion rights in america's decades in the making. coming, up the lie at the center of the so-called pro-life movement and how the fall of row is exposing it. w is exposing it ♪ this is the moment. for a treatment for moderate-to-severe eczema. cibinqo — fda approved. 100% steroid free. not an injection, cibinqo is a once-daily pill for adults who didn't respond to previous treatments. and cibinqo helps provide clearer skin and less itch. cibinqo can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. before and during treatment, your doctor should check for infections and do blood tests. tell your doctor if you've had hepatitis b or c, have flu-like symptoms, or are prone to infections.

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this sunday shows coming up at 10 am this morning. my friend, michael steele, is filling in with jonathan capehart. hey, buddy, good to see you, as always. i have to ask you this, i've been talking about the last several weeks and how things may have changed for democrats and their fortunes in the midterms. i talked to eric swalwell the other night, he said something interesting, he said, look, democrats been making these incremental gains and their

policy oriented. republicans still seem to be on the side of chaos at the moment. when it comes down to the election, democrats are going to have to be able to articulate the fact that, hey, we're for policies, whether this student loans or prescription drugs or guns stuff, and republicans are still supporting a guy and a sentiment that is around chaos. >> yeah, i mean, that's, you know, chaos pays, baby, that's why they do it. their votes and their dollars associated with a. it's part of the ongoing narrative back to 2015 where, you know, the trump world decided that their goal is going to be to disrupt, to disengage people from their understanding of how government has served and helped people. and so, you see this now competition among these candidates who are out here trying to be one better than trump. so, it's gonna make for a very

dynamic space. here is the rub for democrats, it can't just fix a on the policy side because at the end of the day you still have to deal with the politics of crazy, you still have to deal the politics of this, you know, deconstructing the administrative state. what is your response to one party that is now shown that it's much more interested in white nationalism then it is in the constitution? so, you're gonna have to find that balance between making those policy arguments for the great successes that the administration has had, particularly in last couple of weeks, up against as well the reality that if you give power back to these people, those policies, whether you like them or not, won't be what's gonna animate this party, the republican party. it will be about wretched beautiful politics, it will be about laying the groundwork for 2024 election of donald trump. >> i think you're right. i'm hearing there that there is more than just the policy discussion, you're not thinking they're fully there yet.

i'm gonna hear more about that on your show. i want to join you, by the way. >> i know. >> six months after ukraine, united have little conversation about that. i want to express appreciation on behalf of jonathan capehart for the pocket square in the fact that you are trying to maintain the tory alleges seal the show. >> that kate part standard is the hard one to match. >> it's a hard one to do. good to see you, my friend. all seen a little while, okay? former anti chairman, ketchum of the top of the hour it sitting in for jonathan capehart on the sun day show after velshi. whether someone says they support abortion rights or the oppose abortion rights, often depends on how the question is actually asked or what's question is asked. ahead on velshi, my conversation with was lee and jennifer reuben on the rapidly changing landscape of abortion rights and how it may already be playing out in american voter registration ahead of the midterms. midterms we've been coming here, since 1868. there's a lot of cushy desk jobs out there, but this is my happy place. there are millions of ways to make the most of your land.

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rights in this country began almost before the ink was dry on the supreme court's ruling in roe v. wade in 1973. it took decades of tireless work, but ultimately the effort was successful this year. when the trump-backed court overturned that landmark ruling in nearly 50 years of precedent, cutting off vital medical care for millions of women almost overnight. it came as a shock to many americans, largely thanks to one of the greatest successes of the antiabortion movement, their marketing of their message. they describe their movement, as quote, pro-life. focusing intently on questions of when life begins. skipping entirely over the, lives livelihoods, health safety and equity of women. we american media largely let them get away with it. the polling for gallup has been asking for decades whether people can disperse it in themselves pro-life or pro-choice. if you look at those numbers, you would think america's long been evenly divided on the abortion issue. take a look. from the late 1990s up until

this year pro-life and pro-choice have taken turns in the majority, but both have largely been in the 40s and 50s. it looks like a country that has been evenly divided on the question of abortion rights for decades. but it is not. we turned pro life is at best a slick marketing hawaii, and at worst pernicious lie. it sounds nice to lots of folks who might be uncomfortable with the idea of abortion, but most of these people do not want to let the so-called pro life movement has now brought to this country. draconian abortion bans, miscarriages becoming. criminal investigations. lifesaving medical treatments withheld lawyers are consulted by doctors. a child rape victim being forced to travel across state lines to escape forced childbirth. the lack of availability of contraception. the fall of roe v. wade has exposed with has always been true of the pro-life movement. it is not a pro-life movement as much as it is a pro birth movement. it is not popular in america.

when you ask americans about policy rather than marketing, you get a very different picture than the pro-life pro-choice divide. for example, the polling form target smart recently asked arizona voters, voters, do you support or oppose arizona woman having access to legal abortion? 61% of voters say they support. it that led to arizona voters for their thoughts on criminalizing travel over state lines to get in abortion. which is a policy that has been discussed in antiabortion states since the fall of. row 73% of people opposed that. targets marked pollster been lasers tweeted last month. a reporter asked me would surprise me about this new poll, nothing surprises me about it. abortion rights are popular. abortion bans are not. arizona democrats some more fired up about jobs than arizona republicans. the arizona governor's race is very competitive in 2022. no surprises, and quote. and as the midterms drawn you

are, it seems as if the jobs dobbs decision maybe already having an impact on turnaround. according to an analysis by targets, marked the two months since row fell, women are registering to vote in staggering numbers across this country, and in kansas women are out registering manned by 40%. and wisconsin, but more than 15. percent in michigan, by 8%. abortion rights are popular. abortion bans are not. there is no surprise in that. after a quick break will drag into the truth about abortion rights in america with leslie, regan professor and award-winning author. and jennifer reuben, writer for the washington post. shington post. use foot mapping technology to give you personalized support, for all-day pain relief. find your relief in store or online. (dad) we have to tell everyone that we just switched to verizon's new find your relief welcome unlimited plan, for just $30. (daughter) i've already told everyone! (nurse) wait... did you say verizon for just $30?

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of misleading messaging from the antiabortion movement in the changing post roe political landscape, doctor leslie reagan, professor of history at the university of illinois. award-winning author of multiple books, including one abortion was a crime. jennifer reuben, an opinion writer for the washington post and msnbc political analyst, author of resistance, how women save democracy from donald trump. thank you both returned before this important conversation. jennifer, you knife talked for many many years, we haven't really talked about your evolution around abortion. you're a columnist, it's all in writing, so, anyone can look it up. tell me whether there is been an evolution and pro life has meant to you and how that may have changed over the years?

>> well, i think the original opinion and roe had from a first credential point of view shows some issues. after 15 years, after we have really made tremendous progress for women and all aspects of society, i came to believe, others came to believe, that this was settled law. there is also something else to keep in mind, there may have been a time in america where the democratic process of negotiation and compromise was possible, that is not possible now, both because the state legislators are not responsive to the voters, the state districts are highly gerrymandered, there isn't true democracy. the republican party has gone insane, frankly. now they're talking about absolute bans for abortion. they are talking about no exceptions, even for the health of the mother. so, i think we have come to the conclusion that this is not

about life, as you are pointing out, this is about controlling women. we now have situations which women's lives are endangered. doctors are presented with a choice of letting the woman get really really sick before they offer an abortion rather than do the medical and moral thing, which is to treat a soon as possible to avoid risk. and i think what we've come face to face now with is the really horrid reality that frankly the supreme court and many the state legislators don't care. these results were very clear, they were inevitable, they were argued about, and they went ahead and did it anyway. i think we have to go straight out and say that these laws are barbaric, they are cruel, they're meant to deny women agency over their lives. and as a result, you see this tremendous backlash and frankly i predicted this. as soon as the opinion was leaked, i said, listen, people

are gonna go nuts. in particular, women are gonna go nuts. there is a whole -- , know they'll be awash, the pro-life people will be happy, the antiabortion people, the pro abortion people will be, you know, dismayed, it'll kind of washed out. i said, no, after writing my book, you kindly pointed out to it when women feel that their personhood is in danger, thatetm as individuals, they get mad, and they organized. that is exactly what is going on right now. >> you have written so extensively about the antiabortion movement and the pre roe criminalization of abortion. being antiabortion was in fact not always a politically conservative issue, it was not always a republican issue, it was not even a talking point for the catholic church and many religious groups. talk to us about how all of this came together to turn abortion into the political wedge issue that it now is? >> thank you, hello.

well, that is a complicated question. i will try. you know, both republicans and democrats voted to legalize abortion across the country, it was not partisan perhaps until the 90s. there is a couple of things. one, of course, the religious antiabortion movement, which figured out to call itself right to life and then pro-life. and combined with a new right tn party. and, i mean, as jennifer is pointing to, the political, the arrangements of our politics, the gerrymandering, the conservatism that is built in in terms of congress and the senate has made this possible. so, it is partially, of course,

media. it is a very powerful one funded antiabortion movement, it's also our countries, the creation of politics. i think it's important that you're talking about this is popular. one of the things i found in my research, i was studying when it is illegal, and it is criminalized in the 19th century. and, you know, medical authorities, legal authorities. the law said that this is criminal. if you looked at practice, as i discovered, people continue to practice abortion, doctors provided it, midwives went to them. there is an acceptance about it. you could say, come out in the juries, i call this a popular morality that was really invisible. if you look at media. but it was a driving force ultimately in the decriminalization. i think you're right to call it popular, it is something, nobody wants any kind of

medical surgery or to go to the hospital if they can avoid it. if they need it, they want, it is very popular. >> the idea, jennifer, of being uncomfortable's abortion is fine. everyone can be uncomfortable anything they want, they can choose to not have abortion, one of the things that i did a few weeks ago, as you know i went to alabama. where all of, what you call the barbarism, the cruelty, the almost medieval nature of this is coming out. i think that move some needles for a lot of people. you said when women feel their person has attacked it changes things. everyone is now looking at these lies and saying, i used to think i was pro-life, i'm definitely not into any of this barbarism in this medieval cruelty. >> and the irony is that you are having lawmakers displaying responsibility, that's not what we are in favor of, that's not what we meant. you have these twisted arguments that they're not really seeking an abortion in these situations. of course, they are seeking an abortion, you just bend

entirely. and i cannot communicate how empathetic all this to what i think of conservatism. there was a time when many of us on the republican party were pro-choice. it was a matter of personal freedom, it is a matter of restrain government. and now we are empowering government to take a tyrannical approach to insinuate itself in the doctor-patient relationship, to tell women how they are going to evaluate risk whether their health is more important than a decision to possibly have a child, how do they balance that risk against children they already have that they may be orphaned if the mother is incapacitated or dies? so, none of the strikes me as anything approaching what i think of as-limited government. and it's ironic that the republican party is never an all powerful, all nosy busybody state. and i've been talking to

ob/gyn's over the last few weeks, it is horrifying, these people are being forced out of states, they're moving or getting relicensed. what is left behind are going to be ob/gyn deserts that women will not be able to find karen. we already have a shortage of health care in many instances. it's going to get worse. there is a clinic that has been operating in tennessee. they are now relocating to illinois. keep that town in mind, that is going to be the abortion refuge for many women in the south and in the midwest because it is located in the southern tip of illinois, which is closer to some of these states. we now have women traveling hundreds of thousands of miles to get health care. so, it is, i think, traumatic experience for all of those involved. i would really ask that lawmakers reconsider, if it really didn't understand what they're doing, it is not too late, they can reverse

themselves. >> i wish i had a whole hour for this conversation because between the two of you in the things you britain and the ideas you've got, this is important for my viewers, i want to do this now invite you both back so that we can discuss this more. doctor leslie, and award-winning offer and professor of history illinois. jennifer's an opinion writer for the washington post and msnbc political analyst. that does it for me, thanks for watching, we'll, she catching her next saturday and sunday morning from eight to 10 pm eastern, it's available as a podcast, subscribe and listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. keep it locked, sunday show on msnbc begins now. donald trump's documented drama is growing. intelligence officials now assessing the risks to national security from the classified material seized from mar-a-lago. we will have the latest on the investigation including a criminal court hearing next week. plus, florida, florida, florida. a closer look at the highly