rapidly as the bullet shot out of any other gun? five times. and can pierce kevlar. imagine being a parent, not just losing a child, but not being able to physically identify the child or the adult because they've literally been blown apart. we equip our service members with the most lethal weapons on earth to protect all of us, protect americans, but we require them to receive significant training, extensive background checks, mental health assessments. they have to learn how to lock up and store their weapons responsibly or they get kicked out. we let any stranger, an

18-year-old walk in, a 20-year-old and buy an ar-15. that's why back in 1994 i took on the nra and passed the assault weapons ban. for ten years mass shootings were down. ten years in a row. i was going to say i passed that legislation in 1994 as a senator. but in 2004 republicans let that ban expire. what happened? mass shootings in america tripled. it's time to ban these. it's time to ban these weapons. we did it before. we can do it again. [ applause ] it's time to hold every elected official's feet to the fire and

ask them are you for banning assault weapons, yes or no? ask them. if the answer is no, vote against them. [ applause ] look, i'm prouder that after seven years we finally had a senate confirm director of alcohol, tobacco and firearms responsible for fighting gun crimes, for seven years the other team would not let us appoint anyone to that job. incredibly important job to help local law enforcement, federal law enforcement identify the ballistics. a whole range of things, for seven years we finally got a pass this time out barely. seven years because they didn't want anybody in that job. my plan gives the bureau the funding to hire more agents, to stop gun trafficking, and by the

way, there's a lot of states that don't allow you to purchase certain weapons in the state. just cross the state line and go buy it next door, and bring it across the state line. keep guns out of -- you know what the mexicans -- mexico, which has real problems causing us real problems, you know what their biggest complaint is? can't we stop gun traffic across the southern border into mexico. there are certain gun dealers that are basically -- not gun dealers, they're wholesalers. providing the weapons to anybody who has the money. folks, look, we can help local law enforcement. we can solve more gun crimes if we have the -- someone heading up, which we finally do, this organization is designed to track this kind of behavior. finally, i plan to invest in crime prevention programs that

help keep young people from getting in trouble in the first place. under my plan, communities can, one, provide after school and summer job programs they'd get paid for. more a access to mental health d drug counseling. more social work and housing to keep people off the street, when they get out of jail they get $25 and a bus ticket, and they end up under the same bridge that they were under before. [ applause ] this will help prevent crime, get young people to pick up paychecks instead of a pistol. at the same time, you need to help people getting out of prison successfully reenter society so they don't get in trouble again. if you served your time, you shouldn't be designed -- you shouldn't be -- you shouldn't be deprived of being able -- if you've served it, you shouldn't be deprived of being able to get a pell grant to go to school. [ applause ]

>> you should be able to get a degree. what's the best thing you can do? make them productive. they should get access to good jobs where they can earn a decent living. all these steps will prevent crime, not increase it. let me close with this. a safer america requires all of us to uphold the rule of law, not the rule of any one party or any one person. let's be clear, you hear some of my friends in the other team talking about political violence and how it's necessary. think about this now. did any of you think, you'd ever be in an election where we'd talk about it's appropriate to use force, political violence in america? it's never appropriate, never, period. never, never, never. no one should be encouraged to use political violence. none whatsoever.

and look, you know, if we're in a situation where to this day the maga republicans in congress defend the mob that stormed the capitol on january 6th, defend them. you all saw it. i don't care how frustrated you are. when i showed up, one of the things that i learned as president, even though i'd been vice president for eight years and done a great deal of the foreign policy for the administration, i showed up at the meeting of the major democracies called the g-7, and i sat down. it was in england. i sat down for this three-day conference and i said america's back, and macron, president of france turned to me and said for how long? for how long? and we had a discussion with -- just for how long, and one of them said to me imagine, joe, if

you turned on the television in washington, d.c., and saw a mob of a thousand people storming down a hallway to the parliament breaking down the doors trying to overturn an outcome of an election and killing several police officers in the meantime. imagine it. imagine what you'd think. think about what the world saw. not what we saw, what the world saw. did you ever think the united states that would happen? what i find even more incredible is the defense of it. cops attacked and assaulted, sprayed with mace, stomped on, dragged, brutalized. police lost their lives as a result of that day. police lost their lives. one of the officers said it was worse than anything he had experienced in war in iraq.

let me say this to my maga republican friends in congress, don't tell me you support law enforcement if you won't condemn what happened on the 6th. [ applause ] >> don't tell me. can't do it. for god sake, whose side are you on? whose side are you on? look you're either on the side of the mob or the side of the police, you can't be pro-law enforcement and pro-insurrection. you can't be a party of law and order and call the people who attacked the police on january

6th patriots. you can't do it. what are we teaching our children? it's just that simple, and now it's sickening to see the new attacks on the fbi, threatening the life of law enforcement agents and their families for simply carrying out the law and doing their job. [ applause ] look, i want to say this as clear as i can, there's no place in this country, no place for endangering the lives of law enforcement. no place none, never, period. i'm opposed to defunding the police, i'm also opposed to defunding the fbi. look there's no greater responsibility for government than sharing the safety of our people.

every parent should be able to know when their kid leaves home to go to school or just walk the street, they're going to come home safely. we can do this. we have to do this. we just need to remember who we are. we are the united states of america. [ applause ] and when we're united, there is not a single thing we cannot do, not a single thing. [ applause ] i mean it. so folks, just remember who in god's name we are. i really mean it. what our values are, what we believe. we the people, that's how our constitution starts, the declaration. we the people. it's who we are, and by the way,

no one expects politics to be a patty cake, sometimes he's mean as hell, but the idea you turn on a television and see senior senators and congressmen saying if such and such happens, there will be blood in the street. where the hell are we? well, that's all i'm looking for, and folks, do me a favor, presumptuous of me to say that, but think about doing me a favor, please, please elect the attorney general of the senate [ applause ] elect that big old boy to be governor, and by the way, there are a lot of really -- and i mean this.

i'm not being solicitous. remember what used to be the criticism of biden when i was running, biden is too bipartisan, biden has too many republican friends. there's a lot of republicans i've worked with through all the years of the senate, i got a lot done. we respected each othe. when we disagreed we disagreed on principle and then went and had lunch together. not a joke. what in god's name has happened to that in the united states of america? so folks, let's bring it back. we can do this. god bless you all, and may god protect our troops. thank you, thank you, thank you. [ applause ] ♪♪ >> president joe biden reframing not just the fight for the soul of america, but this white house has laid out a brand new i guess new goal post for his own party.

president joe biden calling out the republicans. it is 18 months since the deadly insurrection. the president tagging them for defending the insurrectionists, calling them patriots and saying there is no place in this country for threats to law enforcement, wrapping the recent attacks on the fbi into his real offensive against today's maga republicans. a little bit of reminiscing about the way it used to be, but this president unveiling the sharpest message we've heard from him since he was a candidate for office himself. joining us, jonathan lemire, "politico" white house bureau chief, also the host of msnbc's "way too early" tim miller is also here, also an msnbc political analyst. a.b. stoddard is here, associate editor and columnist for real clear politics, and nbc news white house correspondent mike memoli joins us live from wilkes-barre, pennsylvania.

i think this is what joe biden says when he shouts at the television, but he wrapped it all into a speech and really took his white house and his party on the offense, said we beat the nra and put himself squarely on the side of federal and local law enforcement who in many instances were on the receiving end of unprecedented attacks from the gop. >> reporter: that's right, nicolle, this was absolutely an effort by the white house for democrats with president biden leading the way to flip the script on republicans. democrats paid a real political price in the 2020 election down ballot. the president himself didn't, of course, he was elected but down ballot a lot of democrats lost the election because of the framing of the party as the party of defund the police. so you saw the president here in this swing part of a swing state where he's going to be spending a lot of time in the week ahead reversing that saying this is the party, democrats who want to fund the police. more than anything what you saw from the president today is

politics 101. if you are the party in power, if you control the white house, the senate and the house as democrats do at the moment, you want to make an election a choice election between two parties, rather than a referendum on what you've done. what you heard the president do was initially pose this question to republicans, whose side are you on? are you on the side of law enforcement that you claim to support or the insurrectionists that you've apologized for, and really what he's doing, though, is making this a choice for voters in the fall. nicolle, i've spoken recently with two of the president's top political advisers, and they say, yes, some of the headwinds that we were facing in this election have dulled a little bit because of his legislative successes of late, the accomplishments like the inflation reduction act, the decision by the supreme court overturning roe versus wade has really injected a lot of energy into a key pillar of the biden coalition as well. that is women voters, but more than anything, the reemergence of donald trump. he never went anywhere but he's

certainly back in a bigger way than ever before and the hold that he has on his party still to this day, not just when he comes here like he will on saturday to campaign with the republican candidate for governor, but the fact that he has shaped the primary field in a lot of these races has given democrats a real chance here and as one of biden's long-time advisers said to me, donald trump is the mvp, if democrats manage to defy all of the political history here and hold onto the senate and potentially even hold onto the house. >> mike memoli, are they studying anything about how the midterm elections of 2002 defied this pattern of sometimes a president's party not faring so well in midterms because it seems like a lot of the things that that were on voters' minds have to do with some of the very same things in the news, the security of our homeland, national security questions about the ex-president and all of his allies who are real slow to condemn the hoarding of

classified documents. are they looking at other examples in history when a president's party fared well in the midterms? >> reporter: that's certainly this is a white house that has studied midterm elections very closely, nicolle. i spent a lot of time with then vice president biden out when he was campaigning in the midterm elections in both 2010 and 2014, and then i was with him when he was in a lot of races, more than 60 races in the 2018 elections, and you know how this biden team prides itself on the consistency of its message, and that's one more reason why they are thankful that donald trump has so inserted himself into the conversation. but really, what we see here from the president is focusing on the core message that got him into office in the first place. this idea that we are as he's going to lay out in a prime time speech on thursday in a continued battle for the soul of the nation is a message that's ever more salient now because of

what we saw happen with the raid on mar-a-lago and the republican voices who are like lindsey graham, you heard the president refer to him. he certainly is aware of what lindsey graham has said of late and the idea he is talking about potential reactions of riots in the streets is something that the president was clearly aghast about and they feel has given democrats a real opportunity. i was talking before this event with the county chairman from neighboring susquehanna county, pennsylvania, it's a little bit redder even than lucerne county here and lackawanna county, a democratic stronghold, and what this gentleman told me was that he has been talking, yes, to independents who are certainly trending in the direction, but even some republicans who are increasingly interested in potentially voting for democrats in this election. and i think it speaks to what we heard from the president not this week but last week when he said i respect conservative republicans. i don't respect maga republicans, and for this president who has a compulsive

need to relate to even those with whom he disagrees on so much, that was quite a statement. it's why they think this election could go democrats' way despite historical trends. >> a.b. stoddard you have been counseling this president and this white house to make national security and make the unprecedented abdication leading the country at a time of violence around 1/6 a central message. it appears that message has been received is and processed and delivered today. what'd you think? >> nicolle, i was really impressed with the way the speech was written to tie several issues together, to be number one explicitly pro-police. to describe how police need more resources to protect us and do their job, why they're so essential and that they should be held accountable. to then be explicitly be anti-assault weapon and to say this is a message in the election ask people if they

support a-year-old buying an ar-15 and if they do, don't vote against them, and then to wrap this recent development with the mar-a-lago search and the document in with the republicans attacks on the fbi in the face of such unprecedented threats to them and their families, and to be able to say i don't want to defund the police nor defund the fbi. he did not go there as we might, nicolle, and talk about how republicans are basically saying that the former president a above the law, but this entire message was about the democrats supporting law enforcement, and as mike said, flipping the script, going on offense about the need to support the blue and making the explicit point passionately that you cannot choose -- i mean that you must choose, you cannot be both

defending the mob and supporting law enforcement, so he has such an interesting recent opening with independent voters. i think that started not only with those tragic mass shootings in late spring, nicolle, but in the early summer with the january 6th hearings and now with the developments at mar-a-lago that make independents far more open to these messages about how extreme the republican party is, how they actually don't support police and it's smart of democrats to embrace this message. >> jonathan lemire, in all of june and july, there was night after night, day after night of lifelong rock rib conservative republicans making the case publicly at the adept questioning of liz cheney and bennie thompson and adam kinzinger and other members of the january 6th committee. and then instead of being a sleepy summer month, august

ushered in an unprecedented search of the ex-president's home. on that same sort of pillar, threats to national security at the hands of the ex-president. what do you make of this message, which is really something a.b.'s been talking about ever since the insurrection, but how it maybe aided and really relatable based on the news diet that most americans have consumed for the last three months. >> well, for months now, this white house has tried to paint the upcoming midterm elections as, hey, democrats we're the party that are trying to get things done, while republicans are the party of the extremes who are out of touch on a number of issues, and the big two for a while there were guns outside of a few republicans who lent support to the bipartisan gun deal, very few in the gop wanted to go there, and then of course abortion, when the supreme court tossed out roe v. wade, that was another moment where polling suggests americans were opposed to that, but republicans were up

there celebrating it. already the white house thought those would be the two pillar issues here. now you can add one more. national security or i might say national security slash democracy that the republicans over this past summer have spent themselves week after week defending donald trump's actions when it comes to january 6th, and as you say, the committee with their stunning and gripping hearings breathe new life into that story, dominated the news for weeks on end, and then of course the search at mar-a-lago and though republican voices have gotten quieter in recent days, americans remember that in those first days after the search so many of the republicans, trump himself and other allies too including some who have broken with trump on other issues like mcconnell and pence kind of condemned what the fbi did. they demanded to know why this was, they said it was political and so on. and of course as new reporting has emerged exactly just what trump had at mar-a-lago, those republican voices have gone

quiet. and white house aides that i've spoken to just in the last few hours have said they feel like that is yet another huge issue for them, an inability to paint the republicans as the party of the extreme who are out of touch, out of step with everyday americans and they point to this long win streak that biden and the democrats are on, and they feel pretty good. pretty good about the midterms with two months out. labor day sort of kicking off the unofficial general election if you will, the last two months. dems feel like they have the wind at their back. >> tim miller, the president alluded to, i think, sergeant gonell's testimony when he talked about that very first january 6th hearing where they described the beatings that they received and their fears for their life, and he said what happened on january 6th was described by law enforcement officials who were there as more brutal than combat in iraq. i have not heard him speak so

explicitly in a way that represents his close viewing of those public hearings. what do you make of sort of the packaging and the story telling and the building blocks ab is talking about of today's speech? >> i thought you had what was the most powerful part of the speech for me, nicolle, just talking about what the police that were there to protect our capitol and to protect our democracy went through. it is so powerful. obviously some were lost in the days after, there were complications, via suicide. president biden, this is something that he's been powerful about before. there's a really good add in 2020 when he was pushing back against the defund the police narrative, where he was speaking at police officers' funerals, something that he's had to do too many times. this is something he has a history with, something that he believes and that is on message for him and i think ties directly into, you know, both

his january 6th hearing message but also the idea that republicans have kind of lost something they've never had, kind of this high ground on a law and order issue. you know, if you do not speak out when a president tries to literally overthrow our democracy, if you do not speak out and defend in rival networks and some republican politicians, if you go so far to mock the police officers who are in -- you know, who are being injured, who are being battered trying to defend our democracy, if you claim that fbi officials are planting evidence with no basis for that, you're just throwing that out there on national tv to smear public servants, then, no, you're not the law and order party. you're the party that's the threat to law enforcement. and i think it was, you know, correct today both on the politics and on the policy and i think it's worth mentioning that in politics and in life when you make a misstep, when you go a way that isn't working for you, recalibrating course is the

right thing to do, and that's what biden and the democrats, i think, are doing here on this law and order issue. they realize they've lost political ground. the republicans have given them this massive opening with their horrific treatment of the police on january 6th and the fbi, and i think they're really smart to do it. >> a.b. stoddard, there's the political, which has obviously been our focus, but it's also really important at a tomb when i think in the last week the irs, the national archives and the fbi and justice department have all had to harden their security measures, both their physical office space and their security protocol for their human -- for the people that work there, really important to hear the president out there condemning all this loose rhetoric and threats of violence. >> exactly. i think democrats really have to echo this message as we go through the fall and all of these employees at these different agencies doing the

work of the rule of law face these unprecedented threats in many cases, you know, many of these people like election officials and school nurses and librarians will be hounded literally at their jobs and find them unsafe to continue doing, and i think the democrats and president biden have to continue to talk about the fact that these threats are coming maybe from the voters in the republican party, but they are not being disavowed by republican electeds and their leadership that we have not seen after those initial days that jonathan described. it might have gone a little quiet, but we did not see republicans push back and say we really want to keep these agents and their families safe, and we want to protect the rule of law. they did the opposite, and they're endangering these people's lives, and they will own any subsequent violence, and that's why i really think that

the president needs to show law enforcement, state and local, that he has their back and everyone who works at these agencies that are facing these threats is an important message for every member of congress who's running in a race this fall to echo the same one. >> jonathan lemire, tim miller, a.b. stoddard, mike memoli, we all plan to talk amongst ourselves but the president went a little long. thank you for watching with us, and starting us off today. when we come back, we are waiting on the justice department's public response to trump's motion for a special master to oversee the fbi's review of those materials that were seized in the mar-a-lago search. doj had to ask for permission to file a jumbo supersized rebuttal. we have some amazing experts coming up to help us talk through all of that. and later in the program, take away his phone, the ex-president spent the better part of the day promoting

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were seized from mar-a-lago and potentially delay the investigation. it is expected to be a doozy. last night the judge granted doj's request to submit a response twice as long as the original limit, a whopping 40 pages, so it can, quote, adequately address the legal and factual issues raised by trump's team in its initial request. nbc news has learned that the ex-president has finally found someone to agree to represent him. florida's former solicitor general, chris kies who has close ties to florida's governor ron desantis, and a reputation as a political knife fighter at the supreme court level. joining our coverage, betsy wicker swan, national correspondent for "politico" and an msnbc contributor, neil cat neal katyal is back, and david

, at the department of justice's national security division, he oversaw the investigation of hillary clinton's emails. david, i start with you. this is the part of the justice department thrust, i'm sure, unwillingly into the news. what is going on really here with the dueling briefs over the special master request when all the seized material has already been reviewed. what's this about? >> well, look, i mean, there's always been an erratic nature to the president's litigious ness, he's not always been represented by the most shrewd, strategic thinking attorneys. this is a spaghetti thrown against the wall attempt really to throw a monkey wrench in the government's ongoing criminal investigation and possibly into the u.s. intelligence community's review of the classified documents that were seized in mar-a-lago. there's a bizarre disconnect i'm sure neal will attest to between what the president predominantly

asked for in his motion, which sounded all about executive privilege and what filter teams or privilege teams do, which is to identify any potentially attorney/client privileged material, so i expect the justice department brief to hammer hard on the inapplicability merit of this case, this is about government records, classified records, other presidential records. it has nothing to do with protecting the candor of presidential communications with close advisers. these are federal records. and with regard to the attorney client issue, they have done what they always do, they have corrected a privilege review team to identify potentially -- that's the word they used in their brief -- potentially attorney/client privilege detail and discuss it with attorneys on the privilege review team to decide whether it should be treated with privilege or to throw it over the wall to the investigative team. >> david, what strikes me is that there wouldn't be any privilege issues to discuss if he's simply left the materials

in the hands of their proper owners. i mean, if at the end of his presidency he had -- he had heeded pat cipollone and mr. philbin's counsel and left the documents where they belonged we wouldn't have this conversation. he wouldn't have this as a delay tactic and doj wouldn't have to respond. how much of this is sort of legal crises that are manufactured, that are designed to do something other than protect privilege? >> you know, i think part of this, nicolle is also part of the mosaic of trump's attack on the legitimacy of our government institutions. he has repeatedly attacked the integrity and independence of the fbi and the department of justice and part of this brief and its litigation strategy is aimed at further undermining public confidence in these institutions. we'll see whether the judge leans that way. she indicated an inclination both to grant the motion and nen at the very end of the motion,

at the very end of her order indicated i haven't decide it had yet in his favor. we'll see what she says, but it seems to me the government has the balance of merit in this matter, and it would be shocking in a case like this. this is so different from other cases where special masters are commonly appointed. this is not a case like the search of michael cone's, you know, house or office or rudy giuliani's devices. this was not a search conducted on a law office. it was a search conducted on a president in exile who was hooding presidential records cluding large stashes of highly classiied information. i can't see any comparable executive privilege anywhere and it's hard to imagine there's anything that's truly attorney/client privilege. if it is, the department will deal with it like it always does. >> neal katyal, you have been invoked. your thoughts on the back and forth today and some of the broader issues around a

continued refusal to see any of the priorities of the government that he once led as superseding his own personal legal prerogatives. i mean, he's still -- he stepped back totally unwilling to do anything to protect some of the most secret intelligence that our country has. >> yeah, nicolle, that's 100% right. for trump it's always about me, me, me. it's not about the country. it's not about national security. it's just about him, and it's never about the law either. i mean, with donald trump's legal team, it's always hard to see where the pandering ends. this special master is a really good illustration of this. ultimately it's meaningless. special masters are appointed at the outset of a search, not after the government's already gone through all the documents. the trump team waited almost three weeks to file their quest, and it's practically

useless at this point because the department, the fbi's already gone through these materials. you can't put that toothpaste back in the tube. second, the investigation here is about -- it's not about the contents of the individual memos that he stole. it's about the fact he stole them, and so even if you found some documents that might be protected by executive privilege, which is, i think, ludicrous, but even if so, that wouldn't be a defense to the fact that he took them. executive privilege is not i get executive privilege for all time and get to put them in my golf club. it just means that the documents properly belonged to the executive branch, which by the way means even if the special master found in his favor, it wouldn't mean he'd get the documents back. it'd mean they'd go to the archives. it's impossible for me to think there will be any executive privilege documents that will be found because the supreme court has said executive privilege

lies in the hands very much of the current president, not the one -- not the former ones. and here the current president joe biden has said there is no executive privilege over these documents. so all in all, i think this is a big nothing burger and a side show. it's done, i think, for political reasons, not for legal ones. >> betsy, there's some real tactical pieces that i still can't get my brain around. why before they turn over 15 boxes, 14 of those had classified materials in them, why didn't donald trump go through them before he turned them over? i mean, why didn't donald trump ask for scif to be built if he wanted to keep the stolen classified material that included human intelligence and signal intelligence? what were they doing and what is behind the sort of bizarre and incompetent legal maneuvering now? >> i mean, it feels like a lot

of steps in search of any sort of discernible strategy. the fact that these are open questions, was there a scif that could have been built that trump asked to have built at mar-a-lago? why didn't trump go through these documents himself more carefully? why didn't he just turn over all the documents when the justice department asked very politely a long time ago for him to turn them over? and what it all points to is a total lack both of any level of foresight on the part of the former president himself, who's ultimately responsible for the decisions that he made in relation to these documents, and also a lack of guidance from people around him who understood that those both the seriousness of what they were dealing with and the very doable asks with which they had been presented. it's not that hard to give boxes of papers to the fbi.

they weren't asking for particularly onerous just return this paperwork that the federal government and the executive branch was supposed to have in the first place. the fact that that didn't happen, and the fact that it didn't happen in a way that at least based on what's publicly known appears to be so devoid of strategy just points to once again why this is a former president, this is an american public figure who's been in and out of all sorts of legal problems for the totality of his time in public. if you have good lawyers around you, the likelihood of things like this happening is just a lot lower. >> well, i don't even know, though, david, if a good lawyer can fix an indifference to u.s. national security. you have a quote in "politico" that is like a h knife through cold butter that i want to read here that gets right to the bone here. for the department to pursue a search warrant at mar-a-lago tells me that the quantum and quality of the evidence they

were reciting in a search warrant and affidavit that an fbi agent swore to was likely so pulverizing in its force as to eviscerate any notion that the search warrant and this investigation is politically motivated. that seems to just bottom line this entire chapter. >> i mean, what i'm referring to was all the stuff that was blacked out, nicolle, in the search warrant affidavit. that's where all the good stuff is including probably evidence of obstruction of justice, which just compounds the original sin of taking classified information and other presidential records to mar-a-lago and keeping them there in the face of government requests for voluntary compliance and then notwithstanding a subpoena from a grand jury to produce them. so look, i mean, you've been in government. you understand in the case of this sensitivity, the government is going to err in an abundance of caution to make sure not only it has its ducks in a row, but that it's got really powerful

ducks in a row. so even if the legal standard was probable cause to go to the magistrate, i have some reason to believe the quantum and quality of evidence was probably closer to what beyond a reasonable doubt would require of the government. they're going to say as much as they can without revealing sources and identities and tactics and techniques in this brief that hopefully will, you know, explode a lot of what trump is trying to do and persuade the judge to stand down on any appointment of a special master. >> so donald trump over the last five years has attacked betsy's profession. he's attacked mine. he's attacked former justice department officials, he is now gunning for your former office, david. president joe biden just took on some of those attacks. i want to ask all of you about that speech that just wrapped up on the other side of a break. don't go anywhere.

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injection site reaction, joint pain, urinary tract infection, diarrhea, chest cold, pain in legs or arms, and shortness of breath. with leqvio, lowering cholesterol becomes just one more thing life throws your way. ask your doctor about leqvio. lower. longer. leqvio. we're back with betsy wood rough swan, neal katyal and david lauhman. i'm guessing you were watching president biden's speech. he explicitly took on these attacks against the fbi in the wake of the mar-a-lago search. what do you make of the president, not just the politics of it, but the reality of it that he's the only president right now. these agencies are under unprecedented threat and attack. many of them incited by the ex-president and his followers. >> i am so glad that president

biden said that because it's a real rule of law issue and those of us who have worked at the department of justice worked with the fbi, those of us who are just ordinary americans who depend on law enforcement to keep us safe, i mean, this is outrageous, the idea that a sitting senator would go on go basically say, oh, there will be riots if an indictment happens. he's traveling the line between warning about it and actively calling for that violence. and it's also just wrong. you know, i had the privilege of being one of the prosecutors in the george floyd murder where people said this kind of garbage too, that, oh, we -- there will be riots if these cops are indicted and so on. bologna. the system was strong enough to handle itself. the cops have -- some have been convicted for various things, and there wasn't some outright violence or the like. and if we're really worried about that, if we're really worried that there's a cloud around the fbi, that's something that can be dispelled. after all, you've already had an independent federal judge say

there's probable cause to believe trump has violated the national security laws. the documents happen to have been found after that search was authorized, and as i believe, donald trump will be indicted and ultimately tried before a jury of his peers, and he can appeal that conviction to the court of appeals where donald trump appointed many of those judges and even to the u.s. supreme court where he appointed three justices. so, that's the process. that's the way it should unfold, and i think that these, you know, insinuations that everything's unfair to donald trump, the best way to put that to rest is an indictment, and i know merrick garland doesn't want to indict -- i mean, i can imagine that. this is a guy who's not a bloodthirsty prosecutor, but at this point, trump stole the documents, he lied about it. he hid the documents. he kept them hidden even after documents were found. he said he had returned them all when he didn't, and now he's thumbing the nose -- his nose at the fbi and justice department. very hard for merrick garland to look the other way, even if he

wanted to. >> betsy, the weaponization of donald trump's bully pulpit to call for violence has been proven out by the january 6th public hearings. they took the tweet on december 19th, they shared evidence with the country and their public hearings about everything that happened before and in that moment, and they showed that the violence and trump's appetite for it, enthusiasm for it, and desire to be a part of it and among it was not chaotic. it was not in the moment. it was planned. it was intentional. it was his desire. when you see the threat that his lawyer relayed to merrick garland when he talked about what would happen, this was trump through his lawyer, if he was investigated or prosecuted, and then you see his closest, closest senator to donald trump is lindsey graham. i don't know if he's his caddy or just likes to golf as much as trump does and has that much

free time, but he sees no u.s. senator more than he sees lindsey graham, threatened violence on national television this week. how do you sort of process and cover the specter of political violence incited again by donald trump and his allies? >> the first thing that i would note is that the prospect of political violence in the wake of further law enforcement activity related to these documents is very much a real threat, according to the fbi and the department of homeland security themselves. they have said that in a joint intelligence bulletin that went out shortly after the mar-a-lago search warrant was executed. what was unsaid but what's pretty much in the gut of -- the culture of federal law enforcement, is a view that threats of violence on the part of people being investigated and on the part of the supporters of people being investigated should have no bearing whatsoever on

any sort of investigative or prosecutorial decisions, and if anything, those kind of threats, you know, forcing the fbi to provide further security around its building in downtown washington, d.c., forcing fbi field offices around the country to think harder about what they're doing to secure their own buildings, if anything, those kind of threats just increase the interest and the focus that investigators have on these types of investigations. trump's supporters are far from the first people who have threatened law enforcement and who have violently attacked law enforcement. that's a horrible but very much real part of working in law enforcement and policing in this country are these risks. of course, the fact that the head of a massive political movement engaged in rhetoric that was immediately followed by violence is different, but this

isn't actually something that the fbi is whatsoever ill equipped to handle. >> david, i want your thoughts about -- i talked to mary mccord about this a bit yesterday, about the fbi's appetite to have to do what they have to do right now, to deal with not just a threat among us but a national security risk and someone who now has a pattern, a proven track record, of inciting domestic violence. >> look, it makes it harder for them to do their job. fbi agents, department of justice prosecutors, my former colleagues, we're all human. we have families. these threats impact them. i had threats against me when i was overseeing the clinton investigation, but it had not one whit of impact on the work we did on the investigative findings, on the legal analysis or reasoning or judgments we came to, because we're professionals. they're professionals. they're going to do their job. but it makes it harder.

it makes it harder for their families, and so i'm confident that merrick garland and chris wray are ensuring that additional security measures are provided to agents and prosecutors to enable them to do their jobs without having to be buffeted by all this white noise to the extent possible. >> david, you represent some of the law enforcement officials who president joe biden didn't name them today, but he was talking about sergeant gonell, i think, when he said that one of the officers testified to combat being less gruesome than what he endured on january 6th. what do you make of this presentation of a choice to the country really rooted in which party stands with law enforcement and the rule of law? >> i think it's a critical theme, and i'm so glad the president struck it today. he has to portray this as a primordial battle to preserve the rule of law, to preserve democratic institutions, and he wasn't hyping it today.

the former president of the united states didn't used to stoke and foment political violence. the republican members of congress who remain in his thrall continue to foment it. the choice before the american people is to ensure that these democratic institutions survive, to ensure the rule of law is resilient enough to rebound and endure in the time ahead. >> these are really, really, really hard and uncomfortable conversations. i'm grateful to all three of you for having it with me. betsy woodruff swan, neal katyal, david laufman, thank you so much. when president joe biden fighting to hang on to democry, his predecessor again is fanning the flames of extremism. we'll talk about the battle lines taking shape today ahead of the next election cycle after a quick break. don't go anywhere. tion cycle afr a quick break. don't go anywhere. i didn't really piece together that dogs eat food. as soon as we brought the farmer's dog in, her skin was better, she was more active. if i can invest in her health and be proactive,

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republican friends in congress. don't tell me you support law enforcement if you won't condemn what happened on the 6th. don't tell me. for god's sake, whose side are you on? whose side are you on? me look, you're either on the side of a mob or the side of the police. you can't be pro-law enforcement and pro-insurrection. you can't be a party of law and order and call the people who attacked the police on january 6th patriots. you can't do it. >> hi again, everyone, it's 5:00 in the east. just last hour, president biden there delivering a powerful message to maga republicans.

you cannot be pro-law enforcement and pro-insurrection. it is a theme that president biden is pushing in a series of speeches ahead of the november midterms, that our democracy is what is at stake. thursday night, he will address the american people in primetime, focusing on the continued battle for the soul of the nation and show how the central argument of his 2020 candidacy remains as salient and urgent as ever. those battle lines, clear as can be today in a split screen of the sitting president and his disgraced twice-impeached predecessor. on one hand, president joe biden just spoke to the need to protect people's rights to defend our democracy from attack and to call out dangerous and violent rhetoric. curtain number two, the twice-impeached ex-president, donald trump, this morning posting qanon conspiracies in a storm of reposts from supporters on his platform called truth social. he created it after he was banned from twitter. according to a report by media

watchdog news guard, published just yesterday, trump has reposted qanon conspiracies 65 times since he joined truth social in april, and to remind everyone about qanon, here's a description from the "new york times." "millions of qanon followers believe that an imaginary cabal of sex-trafficking, satan-worshipping liberals is controlling the government and that trump is leading the fight against it. fantastical qanon ideas have taken root in mainstream republican politics, although some supporters have struggled at the polls. the movement has been viewed by law enforcement as a potential domestic terror threat and was linked to the capitol riot." in the past, trump has played dumb and refused to disavow qanon followers. >> during the pandemic, the qanon movement has been -- appears to be gaining a lot of followers. can you talk about what you think about that and what you have to say to the people who

are following this movement right now? >> well, i don't know much about the movement, other than i understand they like me very much. which i appreciate. i've heard these are people that love our country. >> disavow qanon in its entirety? >> i know nothing about qanon. >> i just told you. >> i know very little. you told me, but what you tell me doesn't necessarily make it fact. i hate to say that. i know nothing about it. i do know they are very much against pedophilia. they fight it very hard. but i know nothing about it. >> they believe it is a satanic cult run by the deep state. >> i tell you what i do know about. i know about antifa and i know about the radical left, and i know how violent they are and how vicious they are. >> so, now, just over two months away from the midterm elections, what is before us is more than an alarming contrast between two major political parties as seen through the actions of their leaders. we are now asking questions we have not had to ask before.

will the losers of any of the midterms elections acknowledge narrow losses? will the twice impeached ex-president incite more violence? the burning questions about this moment in american politics is where we begin the hour with some of our most favorite reporters and friends. axios political reporter alexi is here. political strategist, my friend, matt dowd, and cornell belcher is here, pollster and president of brilliant corners research. alexi, matt and cornell are all msnbc contributors. also joining us today, msnbc senior reporter ben collins. i want to start with you. your twitter feed is the stuff of my nightmares. i flagged it, and i have been sending it around, because the things that donald trump -- i don't know if he has this many followers on the -- what is it? the social truth as he did on twitter, but a lot of people watch what he does and talk about what he is disseminates.

>> yeah, he has about 4 million followers on truth social. it's very hard to use that website, by the way. it's not an easy thing to do. so, people really have to seek him out and find him. the goal of the website, by the way, is to do exactly what we're all doing today, screen shot it, send around the worst stuff that he said. for him, what he has to do, he has to keep ratcheting up the rhetoric to get news coverage on other sites, so reporters screen shot him, put him on twitter or facebook or whatever. but today, unfortunately, you kind of had to do that. for example, he posted a momentum that said, russia is not the enemy with the words "the enemy" over kamala harris's eyes and pointing to nancy pelosi and joe biden as well. he posted overt qanon material about the storm, which is the imagined day that, you know, the deep state, hillary clinton, barack obama will be rounded up and executed in public. you know, that's where this is headed. this is a very dark space for

the president -- the ex-president to be headed, donald trump. he is focused now on getting his even more fringe base than before riled up again. in q forums, by the way, qanon forums, which had been largely dead over the last few amongst, because they ran out of hope that, you know, their plan that he was secretly still running the country or something could be enacted. it fired them back up today, and one of the top posts in response to donald trump's post today was just one that said, "nuke them from orbit," which was referring to the deep state and people like joe biden. >> let me read -- ben, i just want to give our viewers some context. i'm not sure i've ever led with the qanon story on this program since it launched. this is senator chris murphy's tweet today. "i just think everyone, including the mainstream press, needs to take seriously the growing culmination between

trump's operation, the extremist 4 chan/q crowd and the monarchist new right. this is chris wray, for those who haven't been following every whiff and blow of trump's descent into madness. >> we understand qanon to be a set of complex conspiracy theories largely promoted online, which has sort of morphed into more of a movement, and like a lot other conspiracy theories, the effects of covid, anxiety, social insulation -- social isolation, financial hardship, et cetera, all exacerbate people's vulnerability to those theories. and we are concerned about the potential that those things can lead to violence. we have arrested at least five self-identified qanon adherents related to the january 6th attack, specifically. >> ben, one more data point, and then i'm going to turn this back to you. "the new york times" is

recording that news guard, a media watchdog that analyzes the credibility of news outlets, found 88 users promoting the qanon conspiracy theory on truth social, each to more than 10,000 followers, 32 of those were previously banned by twitter. you're talking today about a bit of a renaissance or a resurgence. is there any policing -- i think i can answer this question, but i still want to know from you. is there any policing or gating or guarding or kicking off the qanon conspiracy theorists that christopher wray, trump's hand-picked fbi director, links there to all of the nexuses between domestic violent extremism? >> no, there's no gate keeping there. the only gatekeeping i've seen on truth social is the time a couple weeks ago when a person went to an fbi field office in cincinnati and tried to shoot through it -- shoot through the glass window with a nail gun so he could use his ar-15 once he got inside. that guy had an account on truth social, and he said he was going to go do that there, and all of that stuff was pretty immediately taken down from truth social. otherwise, qanon stuff is very

much allowed on that platform. it's important to remember, one of the first people to get through on january 6th, the person who sort of led the charge, was in a qanon shirt that day, because he thought he was seeing the storm. he thought he was, you know, it was all about to happen. he thought he was about to see people hanged, and he thought he was about to see the takeover of the government. that's what this is about. you know, one way or another, you don't have to believe in q to believe that the government needs to be taken over with pro-trump militias or other, like you just said, monarchist-style beliefs that donald trump is the very last president of the united states. in these spaces, pro-trump spaces, qanon spaces, they call him gotus, stands for god emperor of the united states. they view him as like a deity in these spaces, as a sort of last resort, their last ability to get back a culture that they have -- they believe they have lost that's largely based on white supremacy. and in the qanon circles, you

know, the fact that this was dithering and dying out on its own, the fact that he had to bring that back up shows me that he thinks that his base is maybe dithering itself. >> matthew dowd, there's such a -- i grapple with it myself. i did all day preparing for this hour. there's such a temptation to say, it's the whack jobs, it's the fringe, it's not the mainstream. but it feels like an urgent political mission -- and i think that's the point of chris murphy's tweet -- to explain that donald trump is one with the fringe and the crazy and the belief system that, again, is at the very intersection of ideology and domestic violent extremism. >> well, nicole, i mean, i'm the same as you. you wonder whether or not you should -- these crazy people, you should even talk about, but the problem is, which is

something we all have to acknowledge, donald trump was the -- is the former president of the united states of america. where he had command of the american military, and he has one of the largest bullhorns in the world, not only in this country, and so when he does this and this group does this, the effects and the deleterious effects it has on our democracy are huge, and it's not only just donald trump and a few how qanon people. it may be as much as 5% of our population that are into this, and 5% or 6% of our population is 20 million people, and many of these 20 million people have multiple guns, have multiple guns in this. and it's become part -- it's become one of the integral parts of the republican party, one of our legacy political parties. it's become an integral part of one of the political parties as we've seen in gop nomination process throughout the country this year, and we'll probably see in a presidential year in the course of this. and it's one of the things that causes me great concern, that

people not only believe this, which is bad enough, and there's not a lot we can do about that except keep enunciating facts, but the fact that there are people in power, including a former president of the united states of america, who's bolstering this group, who's an incredible danger to our country. >> cornell, it is one of the oldest sort of political tactics in the political tactician's, you know, arsenal, to highlight associations and either embarrass or shame or sort of break up those coalitions. both parties have deployed those tactics. the real scary thing is that i played -- i'm very judicious about playing donald trump. it is hard for me to watch and imagine him as the steward of our country's mighty military and the office of the presidency, but when asked and given the opportunity to

distance himself from qanon, he refused, not once, but twice. it is so reminiscent of when he was asked to distance himself from david duke, and he said, i disavow, what do you want me to do, jake? to the proud boys, what do you want me to do, chris wallace? stand back and stand by. i mean, he wants these associations. >> well, he needs them. i mean, they're the -- they're the base of his coalition. so, he -- i mean, without, you know, white nationalism, without tribalism, without being their tribal strong man, the emperor has no clothes. it's not that -- like they like trump for his free market economic theories. he is their tribal -- he is their tribal strong man, and by the way, so he can get away with a lot of things that typically -- our typical politicians won't get away with because the only thing that they have vested in him is their

tribalism. i want to get back to a point that dowd actually stole from me here is that, you know, nicole, if you're talking about 10 or 12% of americans who are all in on this cult-like behavior, you're talking about upwards of 20 million people. you're talking about an army of americans, and that's the real danger here. that's why i actually really appreciate what president biden did today, what, to me, what president biden did today was really a call to americans' decency, a call back to decency in politics and asked over and over again, you know, what the heck are we doing? this isn't america. this isn't who we are. and i think the majority of americans will rally around that ideal that, this is not who we are. and this is something that we have to put down. >> yeah, i mean, alexi, i

appreciate the emergency frame around this. we have an emergency, folks. the maga republicans, these are not normal republicans. these are not conservative republicans. these are people who can't or won't condemn an insurrection. and they have insurrectionists confused with patriots. it was just this shot of -- this injection of reality and truth into a debate that hasn't really had particularly sharp edges on the part of elected democrats until the president stepped right into the center of it today with that speech. >> that's certainly something a lot of democratic voters have been wanting to see from president biden and the white house as we've been seeing the january 6th hearings and having more information revealed about president trump and his conduct since then. i can't help but also think about the night that the election was called in 2020, joe biden said, let this grim era of demonization of america begin to end here and now. and he said that, obviously, when he was elected and the race was called, and it's so similar,

of course, to what's going on now, but the difference, of course, is that democrats and biden aren't just fighting against donald trump. they're fighting against trumpism, the slate of candidates that he has recruited who are talking like him, acting like him, proposing plans that would govern exactly like him, seeking to overturn the results of future elections if they don't like the results of those elections. this entire institution, machine, the millions of people that we have been talking about online and offline who kind of follow this trumpism is what democrats are up against this time around, and it requires that urgency that we heard from president biden today but also a lot of hard work from the democratic party campaign arms, the democratic candidates, especially those i talked to who were running for governor in places like pennsylvania, wisconsin, arizona, these states where they're critically important this time around, but whoever gets installed in those positions is really going to have the keys to democracy for 2024 and beyond. >> yeah, i mean, ben, i wonder if you can pull back the curtain

on how many -- i don't want to use the word "legitimate," but how many elected republicans are swimming around in sort of the same toxic sludge on truth social when it comes to the qanon accounts? >> the qanon accounts, i would say, it's not that many people. but they all have to play to that base. you can't ignore them. you can't run over them. you can't pretend like they are not part of the situation. there are people who have tried to do that, and their names are liz cheney and adam kinzinger. so, like, those are the two people and they are no longer really part of the party anymore. i do want to add, you guys were talking about the 5% of the country thing. >> yeah. >> the three percenters, you know, the people who stormed the capitol, they are based on the notion that they believe, which is not true, only 3% of people in the united states participated in the revolution against the british, so when they say 1776 again, that's what

they mean. they believe you don't need that many people to have a successful coup or uprising or revolution in the united states. that's the whole point of this for groups like the oath keepers, and three percenters and the qanon people. they are not interested in majority rule. they are interested in fighting. they want desperately to fight a ground war in the united states to keep their guy in power, and that's where this is all headed, and i think that's, you know, sounding the alarm today is very important. >> ben collins, thank you for your reporting on all this. i'm really grateful that you do it and that you take the time to come and talk to us about it. alexi, matt and cornell stick around. when we come back, matthew has compiled a list of the top candidates who pose the most danger to our constitutional democracy. we'll go through all of them. they're some of the biggest election deniers who spread some of the most insidious conspiracy theories, and alarmingly, they also have a legitimate shot at victory this november.

that list and the candidates in their own words, we'll show it to you after the break. plus, there are new developments in the case that at one point was considered to represent the biggest legal threat to the twice impeached ex-president. an update from fulton county, georgia, is ahead. and breaking news out of moscow. russian state news agencies are reporting the death of mikhail gorbachev at the age of 91. we'll take a closer look at the life and impact of the final leader of the soviet union later in the hour. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. "deadline ws after a quick break. year they wt all dinosaurs stuff the next, camels. - llamas. - llamas. so save money shopping back to school on amazon. you sure that's not a camel? yeah. whatever you say. kickstart your fall refresh with wayfair's labor day sale. shop indoor and outdoor area rugs up to 70% off. cooking must haves up to 60% off. and kitchen and bathroom upgrades from $19.99. shop our labor day sale now through sept 7th.

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in recent primaries across

the country, we've witnessed republicans nominate candidates with extreme views, whether they're about the 2020 election, abortion rights, gun control or many other issues. take a listen to just some of what we have heard from republican candidates just in the last couple months. >> we have a lot of evidence of irregularities and problems, and we're going to address those. why would i release it to a bunch of people who deny that there was fraud when there was only fraud? >> the most thing is i get to appoint the secretary of state and the secretary of state is going to clean up the election laws. you're going to have to re-register. >> this idea that these marriages were fundamentally, maybe even violent, but certainly unhappy, and so getting rid of them and making it easier for people to shift spouses like they change their underwear, that's going to make people happier in the long-term.

it really didn't work out for the kids of those marriages. >> i've talked to those people who were the child of a rape victim, and the bond that those two people made and the fact that out of that tragedy, there was healing through that baby, it's something that we don't think about. >> when we consider both the criminality and the incompetence, the margin of error exceeds the margin of victory. ladies and gentlemen, we know it, and they know it. donald trump won. >> just a quick message to the characters from arizona. there was no fraud. your guys did a fraudit and they couldn't even find any, and again, i'm reluctant to amplify those messages, but we played them for a really important reason. that's the gop. those candidates are also part of a list curated by our friend, matt dowd, a ranking of the top ten candidates who threaten our

democracy. we're back with our panel, alexi, matt, and cornell. matt, talk about -- to be clear, that could have gone on for another 30, 40, 50 minutes. talk about this crop of republicans. >> well, you know, i had to come up with a test -- a three-part test in order to limit the number to ten, because the number is north of a hundred and that's serious. the number is north of a hundred of candidates that are -- that are nominated by republicans in this election in state after state, so i wanted to limit to the top ten so we could focus on the top ten, and it's basically a three-part test, as you just evidenced from there. it's, one, how crazy they are, the crazy stuff they say and the unhinged stuff they say and how far out of the mainstream they are. two is how much of a danger are they to democracy if they take power, if they actually win the office. and three, what are their chances of winning in this election? because, yes, somebody could be crazy, and yes, somebody could be a danger, but they may have zero chance of winning.

every one of the ten of that list has all three. i mean, the number one is kari lake, who you started with, who's running for governor, who's basically within the margin of error of winning as governor of arizona, and close second is mark finchem, who's also tied in the polls, who's also said, what you didn't play, he would decertify the election as secretary of state in the course of this. there's two in arizona. there's three in michigan. the rest are spread, pennsylvania, ohio, wisconsin. around the country. so, my goal of this was to focus on this idea, yes, they're crazy, as the previous segment talked about a lot of crazy stuff, but two, it's a real danger to our democracy if they hold the power, like the governor of arizona, who said -- the candidate, republican candidate, doug mastriano, who said he gets to appoint the secretary of state who runs the elections in this, is that these folks are not just somebody to make fun of and, you know, i always think of that when i look at these folks. it's all fun and games until

someone gets hurt. well, this is all fun and games until our country is hurt, and every one of these candidates on that top ten list has a legitimate -- a legitimate shot at winning in november. >> cornell, how do you -- how do democrats defeat them? >> well, i think it goes a long way to what the president was doing today. look, you know, we've talked about this before. democrats have historically not wanted to nationalize election and make every election local and focus on the individual candidates. you all -- republicans have done a good job of nationalizing the election and making them about bigger things. what i love about what the president was doing today was he was nationalizing the election. he was making it about something bigger. and with a broad stroke, you know, defining this election as freedom and democracy versus chaos and danger and the loss of democracy. so, he's making this thing about -- and by the way, sort of

the, you know, there's a couple of us who have been on this show, preaching this from this hymnal for a long while, and i'm glad to see the white house getting on board with that, but i think that is how, you know, nod to you, dowd, but that is how i think democrats take advantage of this is that we, in fact, nationalize the election and make it about big things, not micro, small things, which we tend to like to do in our -- over the last couple of cycles. >> alexi, i've been part of these conversations and i always quote the aaron sorkin character who says, on election day, people care about what i tell them to care about. it would appear that talking about -- not talking about, but i think illustrating through evidence, through interviews, through taped depositions, in the words of republicans, the damage to democracy done under donald trump, showing that the right to bear arms has been so

perverted that our babies aren't safe in elementary school and living in a country where abortion is illegal in the states that had trigger laws in place after the extreme supreme court overturned roe vs. wade. the facts have almost proven the case ahead of the democrats turning to this message. what do you -- what do you make of the speech you heard today and democrats' willingness to make democracy a midterm election issue? >> yeah, i mean, i can't help but think it's not something you've heard in an off-cycle election as a major theme in some time. 2018 was obviously healthcare, healthcare, healthcare. otherwise, it's been jobs and the economy. these kitchen table issues. but it's really just speaking to the larger problems and to the point about keeping races local versus national, it's nearly impossible to do that now, because of the scale of the problems that we're having, even as all these issues are coming down to the states. you have to nationalize it. vp harris was at a fund-raiser

over the weekend for the dnc, and she said, during that, to donors, if you are running for office, you must absolutely state where you stand on defending and preserving democracy. that is certainly not something, i'm sure, congressional candidates otherwise have heard in the past when they're running for office, but it speaks to this largest contrast the dems have been trying to make with the republican party to varying degrees of success with different issues up until this point, and it just seems that they're getting more and more sort of tangible examples and moments to draw this contrast that's not just ds versus rs. it's, are you for democracy, or are you not? >> it is amazing. i could talk to all three of you for the whole hour. we'll have to do that one of these days. thank you so much. when we come back, the news breaking this hour out of moscow, the death of mikhail gorbachev, the soviet leader whose time in power set off the events that led to the end of the cold war. we'll be back with that report after a quick break. ar w we'll be back with that report

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confrontation. that was revolutionary. gorbachev made friends with the soviet union's former enemies. none more than ronald reagan. they negotiated a breakthrough nuclear missile treaty, and formed a strong bond. that same year, gorbachev sat down with nbc's tom brokaw, a tv first, and americans were amazed by the open, reassuring soviet leader and charmed by the first soviet first lady they'd ever seen. but it was at home where gorbachev's two ideas, glass november and par stroi ka that a genie out of the bottle even he couldn't put back. >> translator: we could and should have saved the soviet union, but we lost politically, he says. soviets got more freedom, but nothing to buy.

the economy collapsed. while in eastern europe, people didn't embrace his reforms, they fled them. but in perhaps his most iconic act, gorbachev let the berlin wall fall, and a year later was awarded the nobel peace prize. but back in moscow, his own colleagues plotted and failed to overthrow him in a three-day coup. when gorbachev returned from house arrest in the crimea, he landed in a different world. russian president boris yeltsin was now firmly in charge. within months, gorbachev resigned, and the soviet union was no more. years later, he said, his main concern was to avoid bloodshed. it could have been civil war in a country saturated with nuclear weapons, he said. he went on to become an international celebrity, maing ads for pizza hut. and louis vuitton to fund his

foundation russia, few paid attention to his calls for more democracy. >> he's a hero to many. the majority of the world, he's a hero. to a minority, he's a villain. >> mikhail gorbachev, the man who ended the cold war was never forgiven for the demise of his country and died largely reviled by his own people. keir simmons, nbc news. >> joining us live from london is keir simmons. you cannot watch that -- i watched an incredible documentary about gorbachev during the long months of the covid lockdown. you cannot watch that and try to understand putin as some sort of reaction to that reception of gorbachev's legacy. >> reporter: that's so right, nicole. gorbachev's life is a lesson in the reality that the true judge, the ultimate judge, is history, or as toll stoi -- to paraphrase

tolstoy, the greatest force in life and time is patience, because we only saw the impact of gorbachev, and he was one of the most singular important figures in the 20th century. americans' lives are different as a result of mikhail gorbachev. but only really saw how in the past few decades. you're so right, because so many russians felt that their economy crumbled, that they lost their empire, if you like, in eastern europe, and they lost their pride, and president putin has doubled down on that again and again and again. when i interviewed him last year, you'll remember we had a conversation about whether mikhail gorbachev agreed the west, nato could extend beyond -- into eastern europe as kind of a deal to agree to the unification of germany. and you know, president putin even a year ago was saying,

well, there was an agreement with james baker, the then secretary of state, but you betrayed us, so everything i've done since then is validated. it was an extraordinary year. people remember that great raving speech. tear down that wall, mr. gorbachev. calling on gorbachev to end the cold war. interesting thing about that speech, nicole, it was given in 1987. didn't really get recognition until 1989 when the wall game down, and people looked back and said, see, the reagan speech? incredible history, the turning of historic pages, the ending of a chapter with the death of mikhail gorbachev. >> just to see, you know, in the context of the news that you and i deal with every day, to is an an american president so close personally and ideologically and mission with the soviet leaders is just remarkable. keir, it's a treat to get to see

you on this occasion for the family and friends of mikhail gorbachev, but thank you for your reporting. when he come back, there are new developments in the fulton county d.a.'s investigation, into how the twice impeached president and his allies sought to overturn president joe biden's election in georgia. we'll be right back. orgia. we'll be right back. >> tech: cracked windshield? don't wait. go to safelite.com you can schedule service in just a few clicks. it's so easy. and more customers today are relying on their cars advanced safety features,

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georgia, where the twice impeached ex president and his allies are under investigation for their efforts to overturn the results of the 2020 election in georgia. the fulton county judge overseeing the district attorney's probe has delayed the testimony of the georgia governor brian kemp until after november's election. he's running against stacey abrams. kemp asked for that delay, suggesting it's politically motivated his ruling the judge says the court expects kemp to make an appearance once the election is over. kemp's lawyers sought to kill the subpoena outright, but the judge denied that. willis herself gave an update on the investigation saying overall she is pleased with its progress. >> i think we're about 60% through all of the people we need to be brought up. i'm pleased with the pace that we're going. you know, there can't be any predictions, as you know. many people are unsuccessfully

fighting our subpoenas. we will continue to fight to make sure that the grand jury and the public gets the truth. and i am very hopeful that by the end of this year i'll be able to send the grand jury on their way. >> wow. joining us now, tia mitchell, washington correspondent for the atlanta journal constitution. our friend joyce vance is back, former u.s. attorney, now law professor at the university of alabama as well as a msnbc legal analyst. let's deal with governor kemp first, tia. what was this in the judge's view a middle ground? seems like a pretty long stretch to delay his testimony. >> yeah, for the most part the judge agreed with the district attorney's office in their arguments. as you mentioned, kemp didn't want to testify at all. he tried to claim sovereign immunity, that, you know, he couldn't be compelled to testify. he tried to say that the grand jury didn't have jurisdiction because it was a civil matter,

even though the grand jury -- the district attorney's office said, we're looking at potential criminal activity, and so the judge mostly agreed with the district attorney that kemp could not get out of being questioned and that the grand jury had the right to compel him to answer questions. really the only thing the judge did agree, as you mentioned, is to delay that testimony until after the election. kemp has said he worries about his testimony being politicized, and in some cases, his lack of testimony is now being politicized. again, that judge did agree to delay the testimony until after the election. >> joyce, you made the very wise point that if he were a target that might be understandable, but he's simply a witness. your thoughts to the delay. >> this is a real gift to governor kemp, and if anything

smacks of politicization here, it's permitting him to lay off of testifying until after the election, because he's not a target of the investigation. we all know now that doj and other prosecutors go hands off of folks who are on the ballot once it's close to the election. he's a fact witness, and in essence, what the judge is doing here is saying, if he had been the witness to a car crash or to a murder, he wouldn't force him to testify for a period of several months until the election's over. although the d.a. will proceed with her case, will talk to other witnesses, there's no doubt this delay makes her life more difficult, because the governor is an important witness in many ways he's a victim of the crime. the president called him shortly after he lost the election and called him to talk about the vote counting process in georgia would proceed. it's important for the district attorney.

there's little or no rationale for using his candidacy as a way of avoiding it, and if anything, it smack of politic on the winning sigh of this little battle for governor kemp. >> joyce, it feels like vonnie willis has had more success than setbacks in the courts. is that how you assess her efforts to obtain the grand jury testimony she wants? how do you sort of assess the state of the case? >> i think that's an astute observation. she's had a lot of success. the reason is, she's driving straight up the middle ground, and she's really only going after testimony that she is entitled to obtain. the reason she's had so much success with enforcing her subpoenas is that they are righteous subpoenas and testimony that she's entitled to. because as a prosecutor, your most important job, or one of your most important jobs, is

finding out what the truth is, getting to the heart of the matter. sometimes you find out no crime has been committed. in this case it looks like she's driving straight up the middle and increasingly finding evidence that people participate in the what looks more and more like a conspiracy to interfere with the outcome of the election in georgia. >> tia, how much are people focused on this and paying attention to her investigation? >> i think people are focused on it. you know, in georgia, it's very high profile. this investigation now has a national profile. so we do know that people are paying attention. now, do i think this investigation or january 6th overall is at the top of people's minds when we're talking about the midterms and all the other pocketbook issues? not necessarily. but i do think that people are invested in the investigation and by and large, people want to get to the truth. of course there's partisan divide over what that is.

there's partisan division over district attorney willis, over the investigation. but definitely people -- especially in georgia, are paying attention. >> thank you so much for spending some time with us today on this. a quick break for us. we will be right back. chicken s. there's a perfect plate for everyone. great value for all your favorites only from ihop. download the app and earn free food with every order. this is john. he never gives up—no matter what life throws his way. high cholesterol. heart disease. 17 fad diets... 5 kids... 3 grandkids... 1 heart attack. and 18 passwords that seem to change daily. with leqvio, john can lower his cholesterol— and so can you. when taken with a statin, leqvio is proven to lower bad cholesterol by over 50%

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and electric crowd as they got ready to watch what might have been, could have been her career ending match at the u.s. open. but the 23-time grand slam champ triumphed. she was not going to lose, defeating her opponent in straight sets in what is expected to perhaps now be the final tournament of her professional tennis career. this spectacular first round has millions of us hoping for a breathtaking last run. williams will face number two seed annette kontaveit in tomorrow's second round, and for fans of the u.s. sisters, this u.s. open has it all. besides vying iffer her seventh title serena is going play doubles with venus. she had to this say. we're laying it all out here, for me at least. i can't speak for my sister. it's going to be fun playing doubles with her. it's going to be crazy. we haven't done it in so long and i'm excited for it. we're excited, too. we'll be right back. l be right .

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. thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. we are grateful. "the beat" with ari melber starts right now. hi, ari. >> hi, nicole. nice to see you. welcome to "the beat." we have a lot going on in the show tonight. justice department expected to respond to trump's effort to have have a different review process for materials that have largely already been reviewed, so we're keeping a cry on that. i also have a special report for you tonight on the war on drugs, on lessons from the obama era, from attorney general eric holder, and why a new song is making waves all about this. sometimes we go old school.