two tickets to nascar! yes! find rewards like these and so many more in the xfinity app. we've got breaking news as we're coming on the air with a judge in a florida court right now weighing whether to appoint an independent third party to review the documents found at mar-a-lago. you're looking at a live shot of the media members that have gathered for this. she said she's going to make her decision in a written statement, no timeline other than in due course. we'll take you there live for the details in a minute. also, a former nypd officer sent to be sentenced for his role in the attack on the capitol. the sentencing should be any minute.

thomas webster perhaps going behind bars for any other january 6th defendant. nbc news confirming a court appearance for pat cipollone and pat philbin set to go in front of the grand jury in washington. the mississippi water crisis bad to worse, telling people to shower with their mouths closed. businesses still closed. students still learning remotely. the fema administrator will join us live later in the show about what is being done on the federal level to fix it. i'm hallie jackson in washington. with me nbc news correspondent vaughn hill lard in west palm beach, ken dilanian, washington correspondent for the "new york times" and msnbc contributor charlie savage and former u.s. attorney and msnbc legal analyst barbara mcquade is joining us too. vaughn, start with you on the ground there outside the building where all the action is going down. bring us up to speed on what we need to know and what happens

next? >> hallie, i was talking with our colleagues maria and mark, both inside of that courtroom, this is not proceeding which had a video camera or dial in phone number to listen in to, so i'm just here in the last few moments getting brief what happened inside the courtroom. folks just left, and i'm told took place inside this courtroom is the judge, judge cannon, here in the southern district of florida, asking probing questions of the department of justice attorneys, multiple attorneys, as to why a special master should not be brought into this and appointed to take a second look at these documents that justice department of justice seized and procured what we are told is now more than double the number of classified documents that were initially turned over on june 3rd as part of a subpoena agreement and the request being fulfilled here. there are questions that were posed to the doj because it was

the trump's attorneys making the case that including a new attorney brought on to represent him, the former solicitor jen until florida, the question they were putting forward and the case they were making was that president not only is protected under the presidential records act but privilege. there is little case law -- the nixon v. u.s. case in which nixon was ordered unanimously by the supreme court to turn over those tapes and other materials as part of the investigation into watergate was a subject of conversation here, but the trump team made the case that this is a former president in extra diligence should be taken into account when discussing this here. trump's team i think it should be noted are not disputing that he was in possession of these highly classified materials. they have acknowledged that. despite a custodian of -- signing on behalf of trump june 3rd all the relevant documents had been turned over here. ultimately the judge, upon the

courtroom going into recess, said that she will issue not an oral determination here this afternoon, but, instead, she will release a written determination about whether a special master will be appointed in due time. whether that is later this afternoon, over the weekend, next week, it is not clear at this time. >> ken and then barbara on the same question here which is, from the tea leaves we can read here on the questions that judge cannon asked who was in the room on the discussion, what can we, perhaps, surmise -- i realize it is speculative -- where she stands in relation to a week ago she suggested she would be preliminary inclined to appoint the special master. ken, start with you? >> i wouldn't be surprised if she went ahead and did it because she clearly views this as an unprecedented situation, as the rest of us do. it's not legally though. it's unprecedented as a matter of politics and the nation, but donald trump is like any other subject of a search, as a matter

of law, but, you know, it seems from the questions she's asking and the tenor of the hearing she may grant a special master on the narrow issue of a small set of documents subject to attorney-client privilege. it seems like the doj could live with that. they said in their brief, you know, they argued against appointing a special master but then said, judge, if you appoint one here are some conditions we would love for you to follow such that it would make it go faster. as i think about this, hallie, this is a bit of a side show. i mean, the government has already seen these documents. they already know what classified documents were seized at mar-a-lago and what other documents. the real issues in this case can only be answered, it seems to me, by the witnesses whose identities we don't know, like how did the documents get there, who saw them, you know, did donald trump tell his lawyers to lie or did his lawyers lie on their own? those are the big questions in this investigation going forward and whether there's a special master or isn't, there's still going to be big questions.

>> i think it's important to note too the fbi investigation, as you say, it is still going to move forward. this doesn't pause the investigation. it may slow it down, but doesn't end it in the least. barbara, a similar question, i'm curious as to your perspective, given the career you have had, is there anything that you have heard from judge cannon today that might give the doj a sense that perhaps it will end up with the ruling that it wants to see? >> i think the justice department is going to get a ruling it wants to see. i think it's a good signal the judge has decided not to issue a ruling from the bench -- >> why? >> i think that if she were going to rule from the bench she would want to appease donald trump and his lawyers because that's the safe one, that's the one that calms people in the streets. to go back into chambers and take the time to write it, ike she's going to fashion something careful. what could be seen as, perhaps, a mild victory for donald trump, is to appoint a special master only with regard to the small

amount of material protected by the attorney-client privilege. that would be a win for the justice department. they don't care about that material. they can't look at that material anyway if it's protected by attorney-client privilege. what they care about are the classified documents. the harm they are seeking to avoid is having a special master slow this thing down, not only slowing down the investigation but the damage assessment they want to do to make sure sources don't have lives in danger and channels of surveillance have not been dried up. that's what they need. the other important thing that's happened today, she could have halted all further review of these documents until she makes a decision and didn't do that. that's why i think the tea leaves favor the justice department getting no special master or a limited one on matters they don't really care about. >> i thought it was interesting that chris kooiz was in the courtroom, his new attorney, former florida solicitor general considered high profile in the state at time when some of the

other former president's attorneys as you are reporting on now, seem to be getting caught up in the investigation because of things they said to the fbi that the justice department is saying, may not be true. i want to show people what we're looking at. two of the president's -- former president's attorney in court today. evan and lindsey also members of the trump team. >> that's right. chris kise is the new lawyer added to the team. the two that may be in trouble evan cork rin and christina bob, her name has not appeared on court documents in this case. she was the formal custodian of records for trump's office and signed the written declaration attesting to the best of what she had been told -- not saying who told her that -- they had turned over the documents marked as classified in response to a subpoena was a false statement we now understand. trump added this new lawyer.

he does have political ties in florida. he is prominent in his role as a former solicitor jenle for the state. that means he has experience making appellate arguments about florida law. he's not a criminal defense lawyer. there's not a federal law guy. he's not someone who necessarily would seem to have any particular expertise in matters like executive privilege and separation of power issues and the fourth amendment and these sorts of things that will be key to this case. it's not entirely clear why he is the perfect hire for trump at this time, but he is the hire that trump has made at this time, and he, i understand, from our own reporting that was in the courtroom today, was the first to speak and talking about trying to lower the temperature and so forth. >> that's right. that was one of the first things he said, this has become, i'm paraphrasing, kind of a spectacle, but talked about wanting to lower the temperature. vaughn, to you, the former president has been, to say the

least, vocal on his social media platform, right, with dozens of postings and messages over this past week, bizarre conspiracy theories, et cetera, but today he's out talking on the radio about the january 6th related stuff. >> right. he's really made himself the martyr in this situation and even his lawyers were bringing up rule 41-g, in criminal procedure, hits at the improper search and seizure of one's property and would suggest that that property be returned here. now ultimately donald trump himself has suggested that this was his personal residence and office that was invaded by fbi agents and that they were complying, of course, we go back to that june 3rd subpoena affidavit that was signed by the custodian of his records saying they had turned over all relevant records. we know that was not the case at this time. you have to hear the former president address this on a radio show because he is

targeting millions of americans who are taking his word about what the fbi is ultimately conducting on what is now his personal property and prior to club. take a listen. >> so what you do is you accumulate a lot of stuff over a term and all of a sudden you're leaving and stuff gets packed up and sent. it's not like this was some sinister plot. they have pictures of guys standing outside, the boxes literally outside, the sun is pouring down and they're waiting for a truck. then they have pictures putting them on the truck. there's nothing secret about it. there didn't have to be anything secret. all declassified. >> reporter: hallie, if you can still hear me here, i think with the situation you've got to take into account is numbers of people we now know visited mar-a-lago and had access or had been in proximity of these records here. alina hava, an attorney going on the tv airwaves representing

donald trump speaking on his behalf, though she is working on the new york attorney general's investigation for the trump organization, but last night on fox, it was her own quote, in which he has frequent visitors into his office here. this is a situation where the department of justice is making the case that there have been individuals within the proximity of the highly classified materials. it goes beyond the fact whether it is the prerogative whether donald trump can be in possession of them or not. >> there are people behind you, people all around you at this courthouse in west palm beach, the attorneys have walked out. they didn't really stop and talk to the media although chris kise, we're told, said it went well. gives you a sense at this moment of the way the trump attorneys are publicly interrupting how it went with judge cannon. barbara, to you on this. >> yeah. i think what he's probably

referring to is most of the questions were reserved for the justice department, but that just means she was looking for legal arguments to satisfy herself in writing an order. they need to lower the temperature really suggests they don't have the law on their side. it is really about avoiding unrest in the streets. the only reason the temperature has been risen is because donald trump himself has made such a fuss about this. if the justice department had done this the way they wanted to, no one would even know any of this is going on. they would have quietly searched the premises, taken what they wanted and left and there would be no public notice about this whatsoever until and if charges were filed. it is donald trump who has raised a ruckus. to be rewarded for that seems to turn lawsuit on its end. >> one thing the trump attorneys did not argue in court today is that the documents have been declassified by former president trump before he left office. we have not seen that in any of the filings or legal protest to this point, despite in the court of public opinion that is

something that you are seeing from the former president himself and his allies. it feels there's a disconnect between the pr optical push that team trump is putting out and the legal push they are trying to make. >> it's a chasm. you heard him in the sound to vaughn played, heard him say declassified. that's been his argument the whole time. i was president i had declassification authority i declassified these. it's not true. we've interviewed many former trump administration officials who say they never heard of such an order. if such an order existed the cia and other agencies would have had to have known about it because they would be concerned about what was happening to their documents they were sending to the white house. it's absurd that his lawyers can't and haven't argued it in their legal briefs and in court. to the contrary what they're saying is something far different, these were presidential records and it's only natural that presidential records contain highly classified documents.

compared this to an overdue library book in court today. you you and the justice department are over reacting because they're part of presidential records and this is a negotiation, which is belied by the records in that there were grand jury subpoenas that were not complied with. >> ken and vaughn and charlie, thank you for your reporting. barbara, thank you for your perspective. we're going to stay on top of this. if that written statement, let's say that written order does drop in the next 45 minutes, you will see it here live. probably not super likely but we're going to keep our options open. still ahead, more to get to, including republicans reportedly quietly working up legal plans to get student loan debt uncanceled. the reporter with that scoop is here with what it means for the biden administration. new details from the white house on the prime time address from the president a matter of hours away. what we know about the republican prebuttal. the two trump white house attorneys set to testify in front of a grand jury investigating the capitol riot.

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new details in from the white house just hours before president biden is set to deliver a prime time speech in philly, one he hopes is going to serve as a warning to americans about the dangers democracy is facing. it's a speech that comes at a time when several election deniers my be on the cusp of taking office. "the washington post" reporting finds more than 60% of gop nominees in battleground states running for positions that have some kind of role in elections have dismissed the legitimate outcome of the 2020 election. without, with that backdrop, saying the speech at independence hall will mirror parts of what the president said at the kickoff rally in 2019, this is about the battle for the soul of the nation. i want to bring in white house correspondent mike memoli in the greatest city in america, philadelphia, thank you, and listen, the white house has made clear, officials you're talking

to, made clear this is not a trump speech but it is not, not a trump speech. it feels it is trump adjacent. i wonder what you hear interest your sources on that? >> i think that's right. the reality in which the president is operating is certainly overshadowed at times by the former president. we see that on a daily basis as of late. as we look ahead and what we're hearing from the white house about the president's speech tonight let's start with the venue. often the venue is the message. the president speaking in front of independence hall behind me in which he's going to embrace this moment in history talking about the great experiment launched almost 2 1/2 centuries ago, but one that is at stake still in this moment and potentially even on the ballot this november. he's going to be speaking for about a half hour and covering a lot of ground. white house officials insist this is going to be an optimistic speech, talking about some of the progress that has been made in this battle for the soul of the nation, especially

talking about some of the bipartisan legislative wins we've seen over the last year and a half a lot of which we don't talk about on a daily basis. he's going to contrast what's possible if democrats and independents and make this distinction, mainstream republicans, work together versus what is at risk by the so-called extreme maga wing of the republican party. these election deniers, embracing political violence, the threats we're seeing on law enforcement something the president will lay out in stark terms tonight, and a speech that is informed, white house officials have been reminding me, by a conversation the president had about a month ago he gathered some presidential historians to meet in the white house and they laid out in their view the fact it is not hyperbole to say america's democracy is at risk. this is a president that heard that message that has helped informed the writing of his speech and underscored the necessity of giving it with under ten weeks before voters go to the polls. >> kevin mccarthy is set to give

a kind of rebuttal, if you will, to the president's speech tonight. he was prebutting on a different network. i want to play for you what he had to say. >> i had to ask a simple question to every american could you afford to give up one month's salary. most would say no, but that's exactly what joe biden's administration has taken from you. one month's salary 8.3% of your year but inflation is higher. you're paying 60% higher in gasoline. every time you go to the store it costs more. >> so he's trying to make the point on fox news, that americans are upset about the economy, right. our recent poll shows threats to democracy is the biggest issue, people say, facing the country, cost of living and jobs and the economy when you add them up, you know, that ends up taking the cake, if you will. i wonder, how the white house is walking this line between focussing on what they see is a very real threat towards democracy, given the backdrop we laid out, the potential for election deniers to end up in

positions of power, with the very real realities, sort of pocketbook issues as pundits say that americans are facing at home? >> yeah. it's interesting, i spoke with one of the president's top political advisors, and he laid out two tracks, the two pillars the biden midterm strategy is. the first of what we discussed, the soul of the nation pillar you could call it, one that's also reinforced by the idea of roe versus wade overturned, our rights and freedoms are at risk, it's a powerful one, but the adviser said this is a president who understand full well that kitchen table issues are going to be just as important. that's why this white house yes, does feel there has been some change in the political winds, but it is headwinds facing the democrats. tomorrow is an important day, it's a jobs report friday. the president is going to continue to focus on an economic message in the weeks ahead and they're keenly aware of that, that they're not out of the woods yet. interestingly want to mention, we've had a white house rebuttal

to the kevin mccarthy prebuttal that sets up the speech tonight thanks to caroline kennedy watching the briefing who flagged what core rooen jean-pierre said, quoted what kevin mccarthy said on the floor january 6th when he condemned president trump the role he played leading up to the insurrection said that president biden agrees with that kevin mccarthy that mccarthy like many republicans is shown to be in the grip of the former president at this moment. >> thank you very much. live for us there in philadelphia. next up, people in jackson mississippi, with no clean, reliable water for a fourth straight day and it's not like they know when things are going to get better. what is the federal government doing it? we'll ask deanne criswell next. t [coughing] ♪ birds flyin' high, you know how i feel. ♪

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profoundly unfair situation. it's frustrating. it's wrong. it needs to be fixed. >> today officials are telling people in the capital of jackson to shower with their mouths shut so that no water gets into your mouth and don't drink any accidentally as national guard troops have started handing out bottled water with fema leading the push in the state's capital. the leader of fema deanne criswell set to go to jackson tomorrow. i want to bring in administrator criswell. thanks for being with us this afternoon. >> thanks for having me today. >> what's the first thing you will do when you get on the ground in jackson? >> the most important thing for me is to talk to the people of jackson, mississippi, and get a better understanding of what they're dealing with so i can hear directly from them. i also want to talk with the mayor and hear from him the things that he's going to need in order to help his citizens as we continue to go through this crisis. >> fema is now authorized to

coordinate all disaster relief efforts in the capital of jackson. we typically see fema getting involved in housing for people after hurricanes, et cetera. can you talk about the concrete steps the federal government can do to make the life -- lives better for people who have been dealing with this? >> yeah. the biggest piece of this emergency declaration which president biden authorized a few days ago is that we can now support those immediate needs for the residents of jackson, mississippi. we want to make sure that they have safe drinking water through bottled water and we're going to continue to support the efforts of the mississippi emergency management agency as they bring that water if or if they need additional support, we can tap into our supplies as well. the other thing that we want to do is be able to support the efforts to restore the water pressure and put some temporary measures in place that will allow for the water pressure to be resumed in homes so people can turn on their water faucet, they can flush their toilets.

but then i want to make sure that what fema does really well is we bring in our federal partners, and we want it bring in the appropriate federal partners to talk about what is going to be needed in the mid term and long term to bring this treatment facility back to a safe and operating level so jackson doesn't have to experience this again. >> how long do you expect it will take to get things back to normal in jackson? >> yeah. i don't think we have an answer for that right now. that's why we're bringing in agencies like ep and the army corps of engineers to look at what it's going to take to bring water quality back and assess the infrastructure damage and determine what the plan is going to be to help bring that facility back to normal. we're going to focus our efforts right now on the immediate needs and make sure we continue to have safe drinking water for everybody in jackson that needs it. >> you talked about wanting to talk to people in jackson, the people who live there and lives are affected that i have to imagine and we know are enormously frustrated by the lack of answers on timeline as

to when things will get back to normal. our team at nbc news has been on the ground since day one and i want to play something that one mom told one of my colleagues here. watch. >> i'm very frustrated. it's very sad because the whole community is suffering. this has been going on for too long to not have it figured out by now. >> this isn't the first time, even in the last year, that jackson has faced water problems. the governor has said he knew it was only a matter of time before the city's already unreliable water system failed. was this a systemic failure in mississippi in your view? >> you know what, i do know that this water treatment facility has had decades of issues with it, and what we want to focus on right now is, again, taking care of those immediate needs to manage the crisis of today, but really focus on the future and bring in together all of our federal partners that are going to be able to put that plan in place for how to get this

infrastructure back to what it needs to be. >> i hear you on the immediate and urgent need that clearly exists. i think there is an appetite to make sure this doesn't happen again. does the federal government bear some responsibility for what you have described as decades of problems, for example, in jackson? >> no. i think we have a lot to learn still as we bring in our federal partners to better understand, you know, what cause is and what has happened to get us to this point, but the federal government is here to support the things that we can support, again like the immediate needs, providing the technical assistance to understand what it's going to take to get it took about normal. >> fema administrator deanne criswell, thanks for being with us. safe travels. we're following big new developments in another doj investigation into the attack on the capitol on january 6th. any minute, we could see a judge hand down the longest january 6th sentence by far. we've got this former nypd officer convicted of attacking police at the capitol in court as we speak. what he is saying now to the

judge. it comes as we're learning two trump white house lawyers pat cipollone and pat philbin set to appear in front of a grand jury tomorrow. an oath keeper has been arrested and charged in connection with the attack. let me bring in ryan riley and correspondent julia ainsley. we have been waiting for the sentence to come down because it could be significant. it could be the longest sentence yet for any defendant we've seen on january 6th and we've heard some i think striking that thob ster, as determined by a jury of his peers, lied on the stand during his trial. he was telling what justice department calls a per post strus story, alleging that he

was the one under attack and a rogue police officer invited him to fight with him. it was a bogus story as anyone sitting in the courtroom could tell including the jury during that time, but that was the story he was trying to sell. that might have consequences here because, of course, there's this thing known as a trial penalty. it's easier to plead guilty because you end up with a shorter sentence. this is an individual who chose to go trial and chose to tell a jury what the jury determined was a sort of nonsense story that explained his behavior. this was a former nypd officer. he had a lot of experience testifying on the stand. there is a term when police conform a story when on the stand and that appears to what was going down at his trial and that could have consequences here. we expect the judge to come back just around the top of the hour and give the ultimate sentence here. the doj is seeking what would be a record sentence of 17.5 years

in federal prison for this violent assault on a d.c. cop on january 6th. hallie? >> we should know more as you say in just about 25 minutes from now. julia, to you, because nbc news has learned the two trump white house lawyers are set to appear in front of a grand jury tomorrow. the one in d.c. investigating january 6th, pat cipollone, pat philbin. tell us about what they might say and what this says to you about where the investigation is going? >> well, hallie, this is the grand jury that's looking into january 6th and trump's interference of the 2020 election. what we think they might say is what we're gathering that from what pat cipollone already told the january 6th committee and congress who is investigating the insurrection as well, and from that testimony we understand that pat cipollone and pat philbin instructed the president he should not fire his then attorney general william barr in order to find someone to put in the position who might look more closely into these allegations of election

interference, that they actually threatened to resign if he, in fact, did that, and that they also instructed him on january 6th to come out with a definitive rebuttal to try to tell these people in no uncertain terms they should not resort to violence and go to the capitol and they should go home. they wanted that quickly and wanted the more aggressively than the president delivered. but they are basically presenting themselves as the guardrails on the president during that critical time, but after the election, and on january 6th. so what they have to say about the president's mental state is something that the grand jury will now be able to hear, as they hear from these two witnesses who were so close to the president as the time and what it says about the investigation is that now the grand jury is being presented with information that really will get into exactly what president tried to do, even things he wasn't allowed to do, because of people like his white house counsel near him. >> julia ainsley, thank you.

ryan riley, thanks to you as well. we'll be seeing you i am sure on this network later when we have the sentence. coming up, republicans reportedly gearing up to fight president biden's student debt cancellation plan in court. so how could that affect you and your loans? first, things are getting heated between a couple senate republican leaders. what's behind this feud situation between these two and how it could affect the midterms coming up. ming up. put it in check with rinvoq, a once-daily pill. when uc got unpredictable,... i got rapid symptom relief with rinvoq. check. when uc held me back... i got lasting, steroid-free remission with rinvoq. check. and when uc got the upper hand... rinvoq helped visibly repair the colon lining. check. rapid symptom relief. lasting, steroid-free remission. and a chance to visibly repair the colon lining. check. check. and check. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections and blood clots, some fatal; cancers, including lymphoma

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>> i clearly disagree with what he said. we both agree we want to get the majority, but i'm going to go out there and support candidates. >> i want to bring in bureau chief burguess everett back on the show. great interview. this stems from mitch mcconnell calling into question candidate quality, he said, some of the people running for the republican ticket for the senate. you got the first interview with scott where he called this a strategic disagreement with mcconnell, saying republicans have great candidates. how should we interpret that? what else did he tell you? >> well, there's a long running disagreement over rick scott's tenure. the moment that most people caught on to it was when rick scott introduced his own plan for if republicans take the majority which senator mcconnell has not done. now that we're two months before election day, you're looking across and the spending and republicans are nervous they're going to kind of blow this opportunity to take the senate and so there's a lot of hand

wringing and a lot of it is private and rick scott is reacting to a lot of private anonymous quotes about his leadership, but he's reacting to his own party leader sort of lowering expectations. now that's something that mcconnell has done in the past, but it's very much not the rick scott way. the rick scott way we have great candidates, we're going to win, we can compete in washington state, colorado, and connecticut in our interview. you see two different expectations set by these republican leaders. >> the expectation settings, you point out in your piece scott says if you trash talk our candidates you hurt our chance of winning and our candidates' ability to raise money. they have raised a lot of money for candidates but so has mitch mcconnell's super pac, right, the senate leadership fund, spending something like $160 million on ads this fall. what are sources telling you about the effectiveness of mitch mcconnell and the effectiveness of rick scott when it comes to the money piece? >> well, here's the problem for

republicans is that their individual candidates are not doing a good enough job raising money and almost any republican leader will tell you this. what that means they get worse ad rate because they need super pacs and to buy ads and you're seeing the senate leadership fund which has more money than the democratic super pac pouring in tons down the stretch but they're pulling out money. we saw them cancel ad buys in arizona last week, which was viewed as kind of a shot at the confidence of their candidate blake masters there, and they want peter thiel who backed masters in his primary to step up there. there's a money problem for republicans and you're going to hear that a lot over the next two months. rick scott had his own strategy. he decided to spend a lot of money early and thinks that's kept him in the game and they need the senate leadership fund and individual candidates to pick it up. now what's different here than we've seen in my time covering the senate is usually the nrsg

chairman and mitch mcconnell are totally aligned. that is not the case here and rick scott is acknowledging it. we've heard mitch mcconnell basically acknowledge it earlier. this is something to watch when you have the two powerful men running these campaigns not exactly on the same page. >> real quick, if republicans flip the senate in the midterms, does this all go away? is this water under the bridge for these two? >> yeah. i would think so. a lot of folks think rick scott is looking at a possible presidential run and this would be something he could talk about that he has done and if mitch mcconnell is leader they just need to pick up that one, net that one seat to do it. i think, you know, if they don't do it, there's going to be a lot of blame cast rick scott's way. if they do he should be able to take some of the credit because he's taken a lot of arrows with this strategy. >> it is a treat to have you on the show. burguess, thank you, appreciate it. if you're one of the millions of americans to get your student loan canceled, hang on a second, "the washington

post" is reporting the republicans are drawing up plans to try to squash president biden's push to cancel some of this debt. they're reportedly working up a bunch of lawsuits to challenge this, challenges that could limit or invalidate this policy before it goes into full effect. one of the reporters behind that scoop is tony rahm, congressional economic policy reporter for the "washington post," also a treat to have you on the show. you're reporting that there's some big names involved in this, senator ted cruz, for example. nothing has been filed yet, right? but talk about what could happen if, as you report, this does go into effect. in theory, you could see a judge, perhaps, putting a temporary pause on this plan, no? >> right. the worse case scenario is that there is no debt forgiveness at the end of the day and the major financial lifeline that president biden has given to millions of student borrowers never materializes after years of promises. now, we're far from that, right. we first need to actually see a lawsuit and one of the conversations that's happening

among multiple groups of conservatives right now is how to bring a case that could survive court scrutiny, but this is likely to be a potentially lengthy process. we could see, as you described, some sort of temporary pause that allows the court to take a look at this, you know, potentially preventing some of the forgiveness from taking place as quickly as president biden would like to see. suffice it to say, republicans don't like this and they are going to do as much as they can to stop it. >> what is your reporting the republicans might argue the standing point, whether they have standing to bring this kind of suit? >> we don't know just yet. this is one of the big questions they face. it can't just be that a conservative group doesn't like the student loan forgiveness piece and files a lawsuit against it in court. these arguments have to involve some sort of personal injury to a taxpayer, to a state, to some other interest, to allow them to have that standing to sue, but i think in a perfect world what the conservatives would like to

see is a lawsuit across the country in a number of federal circuits and conflicting or overlapping rulings because we could see this elevated into a bigger fight, not just over student loan forgiveness, but over the president's economic authorities that could land right in the that could land right in the hands of the supreme court. again, that's so far from where we are right now, but suffice to say borrowers are freaking out about this. that's the number one thing we heard as we were canvassing the u.s. is that borrowers were scared they were never going to get the relief they were promised. >> it's great reporting, tony. thank you very much. we'll stay on top of you as you get the story. cdc set to vote right in time for covid shots because after all, it is september, somehow. how should you know if you should get one? we've got that coming up. we've p ♪ ♪

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"shake your thang" by salt n pepa right now cdc advisers are meeting and getting ready to vote any minute we anticipate on the updated covid booster shots that specifically targeted a couple of omicron variants because if this panel signs off the cdc director gives a final green light and it's a go. people can start getting shots as soon as next week. dr. natalie azar joins us now. good to see you. we know that these boosters in particular were not tested on humans. has that come up today in the conversations with advisers and what do you say to folks looking

at that and wondering should i get this? >> it actually has come up in a lot of detail. they're basing this authorization on three pieces of data. one is what we call the data from the mrna vaccines that have now been given to millions of people. they also have the non-clinical data, i.e., the data in mice for the ba.4, ba.5 variant which is the one they're voting on and they're using the clinical data from trials that have been done on a bivaliant vaccine earlier in the summer that included the ancestral strain plus the ba.1, and they spent a lot of time talking about the data with ba.1 and showing that if you have the bivaliant that had the ba.1 you had a superior antibody response to omicron than the omnivariant, i.e., the ancestral strain. using that will inform their decision about whether or not

they're going to approve this particular bivaliant booster. as you and i have talked about before, they sort of re-emphasized that there should not be any new safety concerns, that it's just the only part and this was the very specific question that was asked, the only part of the manufacturing process that was changed was the little snippet of messenger rna that was introduced in order to generate the appropriate antibodies to the right spike protein, in this case, ba.4 and ba.5 and making the analogy to how we change and take the flu shot every year. >> something that dr. paul said, and he may be familiar to folks who watch the show. let me play it. >> what i fear is that they're going to say everybody should get it when a healthy young person may benefit from a booster dose and they target it more specifically to those who are more likely to benefit. >> do you agree, dr. azar, or is

someone who is eligible go get one. i spent a lot of my time listening to experts who sit on these committees and i value their opinions. paul offit has been a strong voice of reason and more conservative about boosting this booster mania as he calls it which i think is a great term, and i would tend to agree with him. so even and we'll see how specific the cdc gets in their recommendations, but even as of a couple of months ago when cdc was recommending a booster for anyone over the age of 50 i had a little with that. i'm 52 years old. i've had three shots and i had an infection in march, and i knew that the booster with the bivariant was around the corner so i haven't boosted myself with the ancestral one and now i'm looking forward to the booster

with the bivaliant shot, but to his point i don't think that if you were an otherwise healthy person that you need to run to get a second booster and a lot of folks including dr. fauci, 50 and older you should get it, and i think what i've said from the beginning, hallie, is not a one size fits all. i can't tell another person what to do other than give my patients guidance. you have to look at the page of the person, medical conditions and what medications they're on and how good of of a response, and when were they infected and then you make a decision about whether or not a person should get a booster. paul offit's position has been clear from the beginning. the vaccines were meant to keep people alive and they are doing that and they are still doing that. updating the vaccine ostensibly is going to give us more protection against infection and possibly against transmission and certainly we want to prevent infection with a lot of people especially those that are

susceptible and vulnerable to severe disease. >> timing wise it is notable and important that it is ng right as we head back to school season when you have kids going back to school and can i call it the return to office season. i think for a lot of folks it's that, too. >> yeah. you know, and that's convenient on the one hand because you can get the flu shot at the same time as you get a covid vaccine. you can get the pneumonia shot at the same time so that's great so you can do a one-stop fits all. i think probably the most important pieces of information that we just unfortunately don't have the data on right now is the optimal time to get a booster to optimize its response, and i think also what dr. offit has kind of said, too, is this issue of if you do these boosters too close together and the vaccines too close together are you really, you know, maximizing the potential immunologic response, and we just don't have the data yet to

say four months is better than six months is better than two months. the fda has said wait two months to get another shot and we'll see if the cdc has anything that's more evidence based other than reaching and going on what we know about immunology and what the vaccinologists say about the response. >> dr. natalie azar. we will wait to see what that is and appreciate it. we've had a lot of news and we expect more news this afternoon and we are glad to have you joining us on msnbc. find us on twitter @hallieonmsnbc and on the news for show number two. "deadline: white house" with nicole wallace is starting right now. ♪♪ ♪♪ hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. a pivotal hearing this afternoon on what has been so far the only

legal move made by the ex-president donald trump in response to the search of his private residence more than three weeks ago. it's his request for an independent arbiter, a so-called special mast tore review the documents that were seized in that search. lawyers for donald trump and lawyers for the justice department squared off in federal court before judge eileen kenan who said she will issue her statement in due course. attorneys for the ex-president claim that, quote, both sides needed to turn down the temperature in this country, and then one of trump's attorney, jim trusty was dismissive of the entire probe comparing the documents seized to a, quote, overdue library book. attorneys for the justice department revealed that the process of analyzing the documents that were seized is still under way. they argued that a special master will delay that process and an attorney for