♪♪ ♪♪ hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in the east. another day another disclosure that deepens the alarm among national security experts that the ex-president was a grave threat to the nation's most sensitive secrets. a federal judge has released a detailed inventory of the items seized by law enforcement in the search of mar-a-lago. it gives us a glimpse into the haphazard and chaotic manner in which donald trump kept sensitive national defense information. the inventory shows that classified documents, some of them designated top secret were found i boxes found alongside clippings and articles of clothing. seven of them from trump's office. one of those boxes from his office contained 24 classified documents. of course, that's despite the fact that trump's attorney

attested to the fbi that all the records that he had were being kept in a storage room in mar-a-lago. now ourably the most alarming detail in this newly released inventory list. a box found in his office contains, quote, 43 empty folders with classified banners raising big questions about what happened to the classified documents that were at one time inside those folders. in a notice filed with the inventory the justice department says it has already reviewed every item. they add this, quote, all evidence pertaining to the seized items including, but not limited to the nature and manner in which they were stored as well as any evidence with respect to particular documents or items of interest will inform the government's investigation. another key focus today of the investigation how these records which include more than 10,000 non-classified government documents ended up at mar-a-lago, and why these

particular records were kept by trump. some of them for more than a year and a half since the end of his presidency. "the new york times" pulls back the curtain on what is called trump's, quote, appetite for sensitive information, quote, a look at what most engaged trump during intelligence briefings based on interview with former trump administration officials and people involved in providing intelligence reports to him suggests that he was often drawn to topics who had clear elements, personal elements and visual components. trump devoured intelligence briefings about his foreign counterparts before and after the calls with them. he was eager to deepen his relationships with autocrats like kim jong-un of korea and xi jinping of china and to get leverage to allies he took dislike to people like angela merkel of germany, president emanuel macron of prance and justin trudeau of canada. among the materials that the government retrieved from

mar-a-lago was a document listed as containing information about mr. macron. it is our clearest look into records that donald trump kept at mar-a-lago and it's where we begin today. joining us is ryan ridely, former agent pete strzok is back. washington post congressional investigations reporter and msnbc contributor jackie alemany is here and former acting solicitor general and msnbc legal analyst our friend neal katyal is back. let me start with you, neal, and this list. how does it deepen your understanding not just of what trump had, but how he had it? >> well, you know, nicole. like in the start of a relationship you meet someone new and every day you learn something new, interesting that that bringious further. trump is the reverse of that. every day you learn something new and worse and draws

prosecutors in more. investigations, this one is spiralling for trump downwards. it's not just that he stole the documents. it's not just that he lied about them. it's every new fact that makes the situation worse. so first we thought it was just some documents at mar-a-lago and then we learned it was highly classified documents and then we learned it was human sources and signals intelligence and some of the crown jewels and then we learned he didn't return the documents when the archives asked for them and then we learned the justice department had to get a grand jury subpoena for these documents. then we learned that his lawyer certified that they had responded to the grand jury and turned over the documents when they hadn't, and now we're learning that 43 folders were found with classified -- were bearing classified findings and a whole lot more with military information, and i've just been racking my brain. i can't think of why trump would have 43 empty, classified

folders that were completely empty and that evidence is completely concerning, specially when you consider that trump's attorneys have lie on the fbi, and i don't think that trump's team has spent time lying about the archives and the fbi about some empty folder going on here. >> pete strzok, i want to ask you about the lying. it has developed evidence that trump's lawyers were lying when they said all of the records were in the storage room and this is from doj's filing after trump responded on tuesday. after producing the redwell, that's what some of the documents were in, documents for the former president indicated that all of the documents were stored in one location, a storage room at the premises and the boxes of record in the storage room were, quote, the remaining repository of records from the white house.

counsel further represented there were no other records stored in other private space and other location of the premises and all available boxes were searched. donald trump has basically confirmed that that was a lie by saying my documents, my classified stuff wasn't on the floor. it was in my cartons. we've got the target confirming that he had confirming not in the storage room which is what his lawyer attested to. what does that say about where this investigation is? >> nicole, i think what it points to is that the certainly the way increasingly i think about this is not so much a case of mishandling of classified information with elements of obstruction, but more a case of obstruction with elements of mishandling classified information. we've all seen the photograph that was attached to the release materials and it is impossible, when you looks at a cover sheet and you see 42-point font top secret and secret written on the

front. if you were doing even the most cursory of searches it is going to be impossible to not see that, and so the fact that all of this was recovered after things were turned over to national archives, after things were voluntarily turned over -- well, under subpoena to the fbi and doj in june that all of this material would still be there? that's really concerning and the other concerning part is with all these employ tee folders. where is that mortgage fraud where there was a done deal unfacted for that could do grave damage to the national security. this is potentially an ongoing threat which absolutely requires the highest level of investigation by the federal bureau of investigation and in part, maybe we'll talk about it later and part of this idea of appointing a special master is ludicrous because the last thing the government needs to be doing now is slow anything down when it comes to trying to find this

material and get it back. >> well, let's talk about that now, but peel pete strzok i am looking forward to showing you what bill boar has to say about that. >> what people are missing all of the other docs would claim executive privilege, even belong to the government because they're government records and even if they're classified and subject to executive privilege. they still belong to the government and go to the archives and any other documents that were seized like news clippings and other things that were in the boxes containing the classified information. those were seizable under the warrant because they show the conditions under which the classified information was being held. so i think it's a red herring and at this stage since they've gone through the documents this was a waste of time. people say it's unprecedented

and it is also unprecedented for a president to take all of this classified information and put them in a country club. how long is the government going to take to get that back? do they jawbone for a year? they were deceived on the voluntary action taken? >> they then went and got a subpoena. they were deceived on that, they feel, and the facts are starting to show this they were being jerked around. >> how long did they wait? >> pete struck, does he make a good point there? >> nicole, it's one of those things. >> we waited long enough. >> when the worst person in the world makes a point that you agree with what are you supposed to do? [ laughter ] >> that is absolutely right. whoever's mouth it is coming out of and whoever did as much in their power as anybody else did in the trump administration to enable this sort of behavior, the fact of the matter is that

former attorney general barr as much as i hate to say it, and he did jerk around repeatedly for months and months and months, first the archives and then the department of justice. there is no reasonable expectation of safety, let alone an authorized storage container at the country club at mar-a-lago. that's completely right and i'm glad fox new viewers heard the attorney general. he's right. >> let's move the way the story moved forward today and it's what neal and pete talked about and it's the empty folders. we have mishandling of classified documents, but in terms of what is public facing of this probe, we have classified material that is right now as far as we know in a location unknown. so here's the information. twit empty folders labeled return to staff, secretary or

the military aide, and that's item number 2. item number 15, two empty folders with classified banners. two empty folders labeled return to secretary milley. in 18, label return to staffer. label returned to secretary mill aide. >> one empty folder, item 23, classified. two empties returned to staff secretary. in total, 40 empty folders with classified banners and 48 empty folders that should have been returned to the staff secretary or the military aide. now that means that a normal functioning white house shares those records with the president, usually with the briefer, but sometimes it's just a paper briefing. i can't imagine trump did all of that, but they were never supposed to be his. not just after he was president,

they were supposed to go back to the appropriate authority and agent of those documents. it's an incredible new detail not just of how much he took, but of how much is missing. >> nicole, i do think that -- and we agree that there is a belief at least amongst officials at the archives that were well appointed with the universe of donald trump's documents during his four years of his presidency that there could very well be a lot of documents missing and it is unclear -- >> we're going to unfreeze jackie because we can't stand to miss anything she says. ryan riley, i know you've been poring through this and -- do we have jackie back? should we try again. jackie, are you there? >> i'm sorry about that. >> that's okay. go ahead. >> we have talked to officials

at the national archives that were well equipped with the totality of the universe throughout donald trump's four years in the presidency and they told us that they doubt that the fbi and the archives has fully recovered all of the missing documents. that being said it is still very unclear whether or not there are outstanding documents and perhaps there are at bed minh ter and perhaps flushed down the toilet as the new york times has reported or shredded and put it inappropriate burn bags and i did speak to government officials who had extensive experience in handling testified downs and they doesn't share the opinion because empty folders could potentially be these manila folders are ways to carry multiple items sometimes with a

single cover sheet. it may not be a surprise to many people to know that there are documents that have yet to be recovered. >> jackie, what do you make of -- as pete said, when you've lost bill barr. bill barr there really slamming this notion that the government, you know, spread and they were jawboning for a year and they were hemming and hawing for 18 months to try to get these things back, and it was anything but some sort of unexpected or abrupt escalation. it was a solution of last resort to regain possession of presidential records and national defense information. >> absolutely. and government officials from the archives to the fbi have been very meticulous about documenting and leaving a trail reported in emails and communications of their interactions with trump lawyers. his many different lawyers and this was passed over from lawyer

to lawyer to lawyer who was representing trump over the course of the year to get these documents back, going back to two weeks before the former president even left the administration. there was a recognition that he had been handling it, and the boxes needed to be retrieved from the white house residence, his private residence after hoarding these for four years in the white house, but i think that at this point it's very clear that trump's legal team needs to try to evolve the current defense that they've consistently given which is the presidential records case ask and that at the end of the day executive privilege trumps anything else because it's not just an issue of mishandling classified information, and prosecutors have already done a very good job of laying out all of the other potential criminal

exposure that not just trump has, but his lawyers, as well in obstructing the fbi for what they were due and would like get again. we saw it earlier in the week because now we know what was in the picture we know what was in number two, 99 magazines, press articles and other printed media dated from january 2013 to october 2018. two u.s. government documents with classification, and two documents with secret classification. serve do you means with top secret classification. 69 documents with classification and 28 empty folders that were returned to staff secretary.

what do you make of this drip all week long of new revelations from the dueling filings? >> to bill barr's point, just the idea that regardless of classification don't belong to him is a very important one here. there were over 1400 documents, government documents in trump's office alone and that's not including all of those more tan 10,000, and more than 11,000 in fact that were found in overall in mar-a-lago. so i think it reminds me of the early simpsons episode where sideshow bob is walking around in the yard full of rakes and hitting rims in a race what he's coming out, first there was a complaint about thes parts, why did they say the it is to release derogatory information about donald trump. saying we took the passports because they were in the same

storage facility or the same drawer as the secret government records that he was not supposed to have, these highly classify materials which highly suggest that donald trump personally handled these do you means and where do you keep important documents like a passport? in a spot where you will go to it. if you have it squirrelled away like passports and it's pretty likely that you handled this information personally and none of this, as you pointed out would have become public had donald trump not chosen to go this route to file this litigation, to make this public in the first place. everything is chosen here and essentially him stepping on a rake and get being hit in the face. >> people nim nibbled? being. >>ed on it. >> i want -- when you say it is a farce where do you have that

legal argument? >> i don't know. it's remarkable to hear bill barr say that. this is the guy who, you know, cleaned up the mueller report and twisted what the mueller report said and put it out in front of the american public. it just really is quite a world that we're in that bill barr is now saying, look, this is really bad. this is really damning for the president to a fox news audience, no less. i can't imagine the emails and angry tweets bill barr is getting after throwing that all out there, nicole. >> there will be no violence for him here, but neal, i want to come to you on this serious point that everyone's getting at and that's not just that trump does not have a possession of the records and the classified do you means and neither do his lawyers at this point that we know about and in terms of lying on his behalf when he's out there saying, no, i kept my classified stuff in cartons. they weren't on the floor. they confessed that there were

crimes under investigation. >> his lawyers made one of them, and it was reported that she sign happened a document saying i've turned over all of the documents the grand jury has asked for and then the search warrant was executed and they found 184 more classified documents. so she is definitely looking. these almost just target of the krim nool investigation. she can't claim attorney-client privilege, if your attorney is helping commit a crime there is no privilege and they will, i suspect, throw the book at her and then she will have to make the decision over whether to cooperate in exchange for leniency. i suspect she's probably got counsel now. notably, she did not sign trump's reply brief in this master litigation.

she wasn't one of the attorneys yesterday. by the way, nicole, the attorney for trump. the we couldn't hear what trump's lawyer said and it's reported from people afterwards that trump's lawyer kept saying there are no criminal penalties in the presidential records act and that's something that jackie was referring to a moment ago which is entirely whack a doodle because no one is investigating trump for violating the presidential records act criminally. they're being investigated for violating five other laws all of whom found as to which donald trump has a probable with donald trump frommy a lot of mris direction that un.ly, the

american public never got to hear even though we paid for that courtroom, we paid for that judge and that judge cut off access to all of us and that's very sad. >> interesting point. again, trump has found a lawyer taking legal strategy from him and we know that because trump's not allowed to tweet, but whatever he does he posts whatever that thing is the social. he's been posting there that presidential records act, exclamation point and because we're all sort of experts five years in to translating what he means, that's usually the legal argument he wants someone to make on his behalf and not a great sign. pete, jackie and neal are sticking around because i do want to dig in that reporting about where the pattern and history is about intel.

and it is like allies who are enemies and enemies who are allies. the inventory comes to light, again and just how much legal trial trump's lawyers are in as we've been discussing and we'll talk more about what is in store for them. trump's allies try to defend the mar-a-lago document scandal. one top republican going so far as calling it a hoax over a corrupt federal government and that is nonsense. one is pushing back aggressively. we'll have matt castelli as our guest later in the show. also later a split-screen moment for america. president joe biden with an urgent and clear-eyed warning about the threat to democracy that is the ex-president while at the same time he goes right to the lines with plans to pardon hundreds of insurrectionist should he hold offers again approximately all of that when qwest deadline"

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we are back with pete strzok, jackie alemany and neal katyal. i want to share with you this nugget about trump's taste in intel. mr. trump didn't always like going to the situation room or even the oval office for special briefings. pentagon officials briefed him on the plans with the special operations raid to kill mr. baghdadi from the oval, part of the white house residence with the sweeping view of the washington monument. at that briefing senior officials handed numbered visual aids to the president and collected them after. still several former officials who remembered trump occasionally taking a document

from the classified briefing or requesting a document from the national security council staff said the material he collected in those instances could not have added up to the hundreds of pages in dozens of boxes retrieved from the government from mar-a-lago. pete, this is the kind of detail that builds on the conversation you and i had earlier in the week with sue gordon about the knowledge at the time that there was an agenda and it was not the country's agenda. this reporting seems to go a little distance in filling that out. >> yeah. absolutely. i think there's not a lot of surprise about what drives donald trump's interest and what you read at the top of the show and it was kindly put with folks at the dni and others about how they had to adjust to include less fewer words and more pictures and more models. if the pdb or the intelligence process was the new york post, donald trump was interested in page 6. he wanted the things that were

salacious or interesting or drew on the personal aspect for what they could be at the table and i'm reminded during the campaign and all of the catch and kill stories with "the national enquirer" with people with potentially damaging stories whether they were bought and put together with the information and stashed away in a safe somewhere. it's the same thing except rather than the national enquirer some other tabloid doing it and it's the national intelligence community providing trump something salacious grabs his interest, he rips it out of a binder and gets stuffed pell-mell into all these different boxes to a point where nobody knows exactly what was taken. nobody knows exactly where it ended up and so now we're faced with the aftermath of it trying to put back this 10,000 piece puzzle where 2500 pieces are missing. >> pete, someone reminded me that with trump everything's about trump and that the single

thing that was of the most obsessive interest to him was this pee tape, that it wasn't him, he didn't do it and it's at the root of the dissolution of any trust or ability to build trust with anyone on the intel team and they were up there on the transition. i mean, when you look at what he was obsessed with and the politics of personal destruction that he's played with you and with many people who had a role of investigating his campaign and potential ties to russia and you read this reporting how he wanted dirt on america's allies who were his foes and america's adversaries that he wanted to make his friends. what does it say about how he governed the country that isn't revealed in full yet. >> it's the most immediate and clearest example we have yet that donald trump did not approach the presidency with an interest in america's national

interests. he approached it from a perspective of his own personal interests. time and time again, we saw that throughout the presidency, but when you look at what he was holding on to it's clear that that was not something that he had some vital interest in the key things that gave america comparative, strategic advantage and it was again, things that are of personal interest to him whatever that may be because it was neat, because it was salacious or it gave him leverage over everybody. for goodness sakes when that photo came out he was not tweeting, but on truth social, he didn't try and explain it, he spent an inordinate around saying i'm not messy. don't think i made that mess. speaking nothing about what the documents were. nothing about why he had them or what that said about it. he just didn't want to look bad. so that is the context of the man. that is the context of the entire presidency and it just is unfortunate confirmation that not a day in office did he walk

into work thinking about what does america need? how do i take care of america's national security and make sure that our nation is great? >> you know, and jackie, this investigation burst into public view and it's been going on a lot longer than the august 8th search and on the heels of a very similar case that's been made by liz cheney and chairman bennie thompson and the members of the january 6th committee that at this moment of great peril for the country and any transfer of power is a moment where your country is vulnerable instead of shoring it up and strengthening the transfer of power and he plotted a coup and at the center of all those public hearings that we watched in all of june and july and they're coming back in september for at least one and then another one was this same theme that seems to be revealed in these documents that there was

an agenda that he pursued and it had nothing to do with the national interest. >> yeah, nicole. it's actually, i do think is as mar-a-lago as people have been referring to as played out the last two weeks, we have lost sight that there is a completely other parallel investigation still going on by the congressional committee investigating the january 6th insurrection and the department of justice which has convened a grand jury and today we were supposed to be interviewing pat cipollone and pat philbin today and interviewing them for their testimony about the former president's efforts to overturn the results of the election. but all of this does track with a pattern of the former president using the presidency, politicizing it and using it to

his self-interest prior to the country's interest, even just the example of the former president using the whole entire archival process as sort of of a political weapon in recent months putting two designees to the national archives as is his former representatives and two people who are his biggest allies and most aggressive defenders and people like kash patel and solomon who have been trying to obtain documents post-presidency that they believe will vindicate the former president. it is things like these hanging on to documents that he believes can vindicate him in some way or boost his staff or post-presidency that he potentially might have wanted to hold on to, just in the way that he was trying to use all of these sort of extra judicial measures to try to hang on to the presidency, as well with regards to the january 6th insurrection. >> you know, neal, i want to ask

you about what jackie is saying and i want to flip through some of his book which i haven't read in full when his book came out, but he does write that on his last day trump was most mad at him for not prosecuting comey and his other enemies. the dream never died. trump's desire to prosecute the people who investigated his campaign ties to russia, it didn't dissipate. if anything it intensified. his disappointment in bill barr and the durham investigations and others was existent on his last days in the white house after he'd been defeated. so what are, for you, the open questions about who he might have shared this material with? what was he doing with it and what might be there with the things we know he was obsessed with at least until bill barr's last day. >> it's still the overarching history with the posts on the

social media site and all of his cable tv appearances, and he's never answered that simple question. what in the world are you doing with these overly classified documents and he's selling them at personal gain and at best there is a huge judgment there and this is days after an attack on the capitol. he knew full well that he was going to face years of political and legal scrutiny. he decides i might as well take some classified souvenirs to the tune of hundreds of pages with me. the law forbids it. every national security official gets briefed every week that you can't do this kind of stuff. even the people who stormed the capitol on january 6th knew better than to steal from the court during the arraignment. so that's one thing i'm worried about. another thing that i'm thinking a lot about and i'm curious about what pete thinks is mar-a-lago is the only trump

facility. there's bedminster and trump tower. trump has all sorts of other looks and if i'm a foreign intelligence service i'm going to be put being my people on right now to go and see, lord knows what trump has in those locations and to our knowledge, garland hasn't execute good search out there. i sure hope there are discussions going on with trump's lawyers and counsel about what is in these other trump facilities and my problem is i can't believe them anymore because they've lied so much to the fbi about mar-a-lago. what's to say they won't lie again. >> pete? last word. >> i think it's absolutely result, there aren't documents in manhattan, that there aren't documents in bedminster and of course, the issue isn't only what trump might have done with it and to the point that jackie's colleague his great reporting today about just the flow of people in and out of

these properties. so the concern isn't just trump and what he might do with it. the concern is every other person worker, guest, visitor who might have access to that and what they might have done with it. >> pete strzok, neal katyal. we'll all remember where we were when bill barr made a good point. thank you for joining us today. jackie isn't going anywhere. up next, we'll speak to a former cia agent hoping to become a democratic congressman. he's running against a politician who more than anyone else in the republican party represents the dark turn the gop has taken in total defense of its dear leader. that candidate matt castelli will be our guest after a quick break. don't go anywhere. don't go anywhere. shingles doesn't care. i go to spin classes with my coworkers. good for you, shingles doesn't care. because no matter how healthy you feel, your risk of shingles sharply increases after age 50. but shingrix protects. proven over 90% effective,

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terrier-iffic i labra-dore you round of a-paws at&t 5g is fast, reliable and secure for your business. i have to tell you i'm pretty pissed off. i'm angry about the top secret documents lying around mar-a-lago. i'm concerned about why the former president did with them and why he didn't give them back and i'm most piss on elise stefanik's attacks on law enforcement. this isn't a game. i spent nearly 15 years at the cia, and i and countless intelligence and military colleagues put ourselves in harm's way to protect our national security. people die to collect those secrets. stefanik knows that. she sits on the house intel committee and knows the tremendous harm that's been done to our national security. that's matt castelli making the

pissed off congresswoman elise stefanik for her defense of donald trump and the government documents found at his florida property. stefanik, the once quasi-lawmaker turned maga, russia hopes 2.0. and suggested to axios that the nation's federal law enforcement agencies all of them are corrupt. matt castelli is a former cia officer, first-time congressional nominee hoping to unseat elise stefanik in their upstate new york mid-term race. he joins us now. i want to see -- your video last night kind of had a moment. talk about your message there. >> thank you, nicole. it's great to be with you again. well, i'm still pissed off because from the very start of all of this we saw stefanik defending a serious breach of

our national security and he's launched these unhinged attacks on laufrment and as she noted this week she started to call this a hoax. it's not a game. there are 139 stars on the wall at cia headquarters for those officers who lost their lives while collecting and protecting our nation's secrets, and so i want elise stefanik to look their family members in the eyes and tell them that their sacrifice was in vain. tell them that this threat to our national security is all a hoax. it's not just cia officers either. it's men and women in uniform, thousands of them who lost their lives participating in intelligence. i want her to look those family members in the eyes and tell them that this is a hoax. the reason i'm so pissed off is she knows better. she does know how grave a threat that has occurred here to our national security and it's readily apparent that she's willing to sell out her country

and willing to sell out our national security to continue having million dollar fund raisers at mar-a-lago or pipe ipe dreams of becoming vice president in 2024. elise stefanik, in my estimation, is a traitor. >> wow. that is farther than you've gone in your campaign, since you were on last time i dug around a little bit on your race, and it is true that elise stefanik has not faced voters in the district as this version of herself, and to your point, this is very much -- i mean, who knows which one is real, but this is a manufactured presentation of her national political ambitions, and i wonder if you can take me inside how that's -- how she's faring in a district that did not send this maga caricature to congress to represent it. >> people are pretty mobilized and unified in support of our campaign to unseat her, certainly democrats are, but independents and republicans, as

well because she has changed on the electorate. she has embraced this far-right extreme version and taking her party down this very, very dark path. this is a moderate district, and so this race is really turning into, i believe, the front line in the battle for the soul of our nation because there is no person on the ballot this november who is more responsible for this ongoing threat to our democracy than elise stefanik. there's no person that's more responsible for the rock that we're seeing right now in the republican party than elise stefanik. she's hijacked my mother's republican party. we all saw her stab liz cheney in the back. she's working overtime to prevent there being any kind of accountability for the insurrection and right now we're seeing her refuse to stand up for the rule of law. all of this to advance her own career, and i think it's clear to many voters, certainly all of those supporting our campaign that she's a sellout and she's the worst form of politician and

we're going to defeat her this november. >> matt, i dug into her margin of victory last time, specifically this, she won re-election by 18 points and she ran nine points ahead of trump. so what was explained to me was those nine points were not more republicans. they were the voters you are talking about. that represented independents that remembered her as something different than what she has become since she replaced liz cheney in leadership because liz cheney had the audacity to tell the truth about the deadly insurrection. do you have her running behind her numbers in 2020? >> we do because after redistricting here in new york we picked up a number of territories as folks know it was a big win in new york 19. some of those counties that are a part of that special election will be a part of new york 21 and we are building a coalition

in the way that prior candidates haven't been able to of those democracy-loving republicans and those independents who make up 30% of registered voters in our history and we're hearing from so many of those republicans, and unpatriotic attacks against law enforcement and one of the unique things that we've been able to do in this race is i'm not just running as a democratic candidate and i'm running as the moderate party candidate if you collect enough signatures, and so in november, we have a wonderful vehicle for all of those independents and republicans who may not be able to bring themselves to vote for a democrat and this is a moderate district. she used to be as you noted a moderate, when folks voted for her initially they thought they were getting a nod and they had previously voted for moderates, barack obama, bill owens, whomever it may be and her shift

which has occurred in the 2020 elections are out of step with the electorate. >> matt, your race is really, really intriguing to me. i'm going to continue to keep an eye on it. we'll continue to call on you as this investigation into trump's handling of the kinds of documents your 15 years at the cia helped create. thank you for spending some time with us today. >> thank you so much, nicole. >> a pair of high-profile grand jury appearances today in washington, d.c., for the justice department's criminal investigation into efforts to overturn the 2020 election results and ultimately incite the insurrection at the u.s. capitol. what two top former white house counsels may have been asked about by the government today. that's next.

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from the trump white house era appeared before a federal grand jury that is investigating the january 6th attack. former white house counsel pat cipollone, and pat philbin spent four hours behind close doors with prosecutors. he's the highest ranking official to appear before the grand jury in the justice department's investigation. the decision to subpoena two top trump white house lawyers reveals an intentionification into the probe of the january 6th attack. we're back with jackie, before

the mar-a-lago search and the effort, for taking documents and endangering state secrets, there was this ramping up, criminal investigation into january 6th, and that appears to be what the cipollone and philbin grand jury testimony is about. do we have insights into how that questioning was focused? >> what we've heard so far, leading up to today was that a lot of the grand jury's efforts have been mirroring what the january 6th select committee, the congressional committee has been doing. they have been brought in a lot of the same players, and they are conducting new testimony with them. building off of a lot of the public work that we've already seen from the committee. just based on what we've already heard from other witnesses who testified publicly during the congressional hearings over the summer along with pat cipollone's testimony, he

appeared in the final hearing after he finally sat down for investigators were likely, or we should at least expect that the department of justice tried to corroborate or build on some of what they had previously been asked. pat cipollone, and pat philbin were in the room and flies on the wall for a lot of very important conversations and moments. they provided legal advice to the president during these tumultuous last few months of his presidency on his way out, advising him against some of the maneuvers he was trying to pull with outside allies, sidney powell, rudy giuliani, and others who were presenting the former president with a pallet of options to try to overturn the results of the election, things like seizing voting machines or trying to send u.s. government officials to italy to investigate italygate, these conspiracy theories that were

flying around. these lawyers were described during these public hearings as sort of the voice of reason, team normal. and so it's also possible that the department of justice is pursuing a line of inquiry that we might not know about yet. they have tools at their disposal, and might have obtained information that the committee investigating, the congressional committee might not have been able to obtain, so that is something that we are all trying to pursue readouts of at the moment. this is certainly a justice department that's been very busy this august recess. >> it's a great point that they may have lines of inquiry that are -- that go further than the select committee because of their tools. i'm thinking of the attempt to overthrow doj leadership, and the knowledge of violence, but it could be that plus things that we're not talking about. jackie alemany, thank you so much for your reporting and spending time with us today. up next for us, back to our top

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president trump did here, does it constitute foolishness or is he illegally culpable. do you think there could be a prosecution here? >> okay. it is clearly foolish what happened, and inexplicable, but beyond that, they may well be able to make a case out here.

if they clearly have the president moving stuff around and hiding stuff in his desk, and telling people to disemable with the government, they may be inclined to bring that case. there's going to be differences of opinion whether that makes sense, but we really have to know the facts to see, you know, to make a judgment about that. i hope it doesn't happen. >> hi again, everyone, it's 5:00 in the east. bill barr might not want it to happen, but it's all same when it comes to the investigation surrounding his former boss's handling of classified information. even the ex-ag has to admit the department of justice might have a case. the newly revealed inventory list of the materials sized by the fbi paints a picture of a storage system/collection system at mar-a-lago, more akin to a teenager's bedroom than a safe and secure place to keep our nation's most sensitive defense

and intelligence information. classified and unclassified materials, some of them marked top secret, mixed up and comingling with knickknacks, things like newspaper clippings and gifts. all told, the fbi took 33 boxes, seven of them from trump's office, simultaneously raising more doubt about how much trump knew about what he had and turning up the pressure on some of those on his own legal team who assured the fbi that no records were stored there in his office. they said they were all down in the storage facility. perhaps the most alarming new tidbit that we learned today, they found 43 folders marked classified with nothing, nada, zilch, inside. something to keep in mind that just because this is news to all of us does not mean it's new information to those federal investigators. in all likelihood, the department of justice is several steps ahead of us, somewhere in the process of a sprawling effort to track down the chain of custody of those folders to figure out where whatever was

once in inside went. while we process this trove of details, the wheels are turning at the department of justice as trump's legal team tries to plot its next move. it's where we start the hour with some of our most favorite friend. msnbc legal analyst, andrew weissman is back, former senior member of robert mueller's special counsel investigation. also joining us tracy waldorf, former cia agent, and fbi agent, she spent five years as a covert operative for the cia. tell me what, as we are here at 5:00 on friday, what is your sense of what we understand about the nature of this investigation, that even former attorney general bill barr has to sort of concede and acknowledge is a pretty good case? >> two thoughts, and nice to be here with you this afternoon. so first thought, really

revolves around those empty folders. ever since we learned that there was a search warrant and learned that there were classified documents, what was in the back of everyone's mind was the fear that these didn't all stay at mar-a-lago, and was there any dissemination. that is the reason why government documents are supposed to stay with the government, classified documents are supposed to stay in a skiff and top secret documents, more than that, are highly restricted in terms of who has access. and that is because of the concern that they get into the wrong hands. and when you see how many folders were empty, that is the thing that causes you to take a deep breath and really be concerned about what happened to them. it is very reason for this

investigation and for the department of justice to be taking these actions, and the second thing that crossed my mind is we have learned a lot about mar-a-lago, that that is not the only place that the former president has a residence. and although he was given a grand jury subpoena that called for him to produce documents wherever located, that was not -- we know that was not complied with, and so the second thing in my head is what steps are being taken to make sure that the government has scooped up everything, especially given the concern about these getting into the wrong hands. you can be sure that our adversaries are looking at this and having a field day, and figuring out how they might be able, if they haven't already, gained access to these documents. >> andrew weissmann, i got pete stark to agree with bill barr, let's see if i can get you to

agree with john bolton. here's what he had to say about the likelihood of classified documents being at bedminster. >> well, given that it's donald trump we're talking about, i'm not surprised in the slightest and i wouldn't be surprised if there were more highly classified documents at bedminster or some other residence of his. >> andrew weissmann, would you guess, an informed guess that there is a process underway to see if what john bolton says wouldn't surprise him, if they're looking for some of those missing classified documents or others at bedminster or trump tower? >> there's no way that merrick garland and lisa monaco have not thought of this. this is not rocket science. they are competent, thorough people. they have to be thinking about where all of these documents are, and they certainly aren't relying on a grand jury subpoena that called for the production of any document that has

classification markings, no matter where located because they know that grand jury subpoena was not complied with, so they have to be scouring their informants and thinking through any and all next steps, including tracing where the former president and his minions have been. i'm sure they're doing a complete catalog of everyone who has been at mar-a-lago who they can possibly identify. we also obviously know that they have sources because we know they have sources who told them that the grand jury subpoena was not complied with. hence the reason they went and did a search that was court authorized. so they have to be going back to those people to see if there's any information whatsoever, about documents being located anywhere else, and then just to make it even more terrifying, we're not just talking about documents because it could be the case that the former president talked about the contents with other people.

there have been reports he did so when it came to information about the president of france, and so there's concern about not just, of course, the worst case is the documents get out, but it's also a concern that he certainly is known to not exactly be circumspect in the way he speaks about thing, whether he talked about any of these documents with anybody, anybody at all, including any foreign adversary? >> the things we have to imagine because it's donald trump are truly remarkable. tracy, i want to show you something, one of donald trump's former lawyers had to say about one of the current lawyers who appears to potentially have some exposure herself. this is michael cohen. >> 100%, she needs to lawyer up. here's the thing about donald. what he did with her, and i'm sure, because i've seen him do it a hundred times. he tells you there's nothing there. i already sent everything back.

i just need a lawyer to sign this, and she doesn't want to argue with the guy. he's her client. it's donald trump, so what did she do, foolishly signed the document. now she's going to have to testify and explain exactly what she did in order to verify that these documents were no longer on the premises. she's going to have to turn around and say, i didn't, because donald just told me. she has a right to rely upon her client's statement, but not when it's donald trump. the guy lies with impunity. he lies the way people breathe, and she should have known that. >> tracy, here we are, we have missing classified folders. we have someone who in this crisis, in this very new and ongoing criminal investigation, a lawyer representing him in this one has now been lied to at least based on the filings that have become more and more clear this week, and she now, in addition to representing an

ex-president has to programs worry about finding representation for herself. >> she does. i mean, that's the bottom line. she is going to have to find representation for herself. i don't think there's really any way around it. it begs the question that i always have, why are so many people always sort of willing to, i guess, fall on the sword for donald trump. you know, why did she take him at his word as cohen was saying. that really boggles my mind, and that's something that i don't know that i'll ever understand. you know, in going back to the documents that were not there, just to kind of speak what andrew's talking about, in terms of retracing our steps, where trump has been, i think we need to think about digital thefts as well. we don't know what pictures were taken of the documents. we don't know what e-mails were sent of the documents. we don't know what text messages were sent of the documents, and to me, that's highly problematic, and i also started thinking a little bit about, you know, the time line of the

documents, and when the archives, you know, first really approached trump, which was may-ish of 2021. and then we just have a few months later in october of 2021, which is when the cia issued sort of that worldwide cable saying, you know, hey, do a better job of keeping your assets safe because we're noticing that they're being killed perhaps, and i just, i find the timing of that highly unusual, and also, you know, with the news breaking that the member of the rothschild family who turned out to be a russian spy was also at mar-a-lago in may of 2021 when we know those documents were there. this is highly problematic, and we have basically served up our sources and methods to our adversaries really on a silver platter. what he has done, i really kind of liken it sometimes to edward snowden in a way by providing sources and methods to our adversaries. >> so my mind is blown by your filling out of the time line,

going back to 2021, and let me just make sure i understand what you're saying. we know as the general public knows in may of 2021, the archives was trying to retrieve the documents that trump took with them. we know from the "new york times" that trump packed them himself, they were working quietly. this was all secret until trump started social truthing his -- the fact of the search. talk again about what you've gone back and stitched together about what happened in october. >> so, again, this is obviously just my hypothesis of putting together this time line, but now that we have the time line, you know, we know that the first request was made by the archives in may-ish of 2021, and we also know that what's now known to be a russian spy but who charaded herself as the rothschild family was at mar-a-lago may 2021 and in and out for the rest of the year. and then in october of 2021, a

worldwide cable went out, basically, from the cia, letting their stations all over the world, really handlers, such as myself have to be more careful with our assets. we have to handle them better. and we have to really make their safety priority number one. that to me is a huge deal. and, you know, again, i'm just hypothesizing here, but i personally don't find it to be a coincidence. >> wow. no one is going anywhere. let me add to the conversation, democratic congressman peter welch, a member of the intelligence and oversight committees and democratic nominee for senate in vermont. you join the conversation underway, we're talking about the details, a week's worth of new revelations, not simply about donald trump taking classified material but the grave, grave possibility that they were at some pretty high

likelihood of being exposed. what is your committee doing, what can you do in terms of understanding and doing any sort of the damage assessment? >> you know, you couldn't hear it better than from a former cia agent herself and what tracy said is what we're concerned about. i'll get that in a minute. there's the legal issue, is it legal for a private citizen, that's what trump was, to take classified documents to his country club. the answer to that is no. the doj is pursuing that. secondly, what tracy was talking about and you're asking is national security. these documents were in the public. who was there, rudy giuliani, the pillow guy, who knows who else, but that had potential information that would compromise the safety of human sources, and as tracy said, it also has information about the sources and methods by which we gather information to protect the american people. and if any of that is compromised, it really under cuts our ability to protect

america, and obviously threatens the lives of folks. we in congress are asking the director of national intention avril haynes to do an assessment to see what the damage is. avril, and we'll get a report on that. we'll take steps to mitigate the potential harm and threat to individuals, and then there's a third question is the political question. it's really the swamp where donald trump likes to swim. where instead of just turning the documents back, he accuses the fbi of illegal activity or planting them and just the circus goes on with him on that. fundamentally, there is an attack on the democratic institutions that are so profoundly important for all of us to resolve our differences and to make progress. >> congressman, sue gordon, the former number two at dni said earlier in the week that there's

no excuse for what we already know to have happened and that's that all of these highly sensitive classified materials were taken and left vulnerable. when you couple that with what tracy's talking about, the easy penetration, just in terms of what's been reported by the press. we don't even know what the intelligence community has assessed. you have to assume they have done an assessment of their own that we don't know about yet. what is sort of the appropriate role for the intelligence committee. is it to stay briefed and let the agency's do their work. what is sort of the shoring up look like of not just american intelligence assets but potentially anything that was exposed on the part of our allies. >> you know, tracy mentioned snowden. and this is a snowden type situation. we don't know what was in those documents. this is why it's so important that that assessment be made as soon as possible because if there are steps we can take to protect lives, to protect sources and methods, to protect

the means of collection, that is what we have to do to shore up our intelligence capacity and protect the people who have been helping us. it's shocking in one way that donald trump did this. because who in the world would take documents to a private country club. on the other hand, it's the pedestrian move of donald trump, it's what he does, but this is what brings us to what president biden was speaking about in pennsylvania. and that is the threat to democracy. the rules just don't apply to donald trump as he sees it. the norms don't apply. we've got now an opportunity for the doj to do its job. the follow through on the rule of law. we've got a chance for congress on a bipartisan basis to protect our national security with an assessment. and donald trump on the political side, that's the swamp he swims in and we're going to have to wade through that, put our hip waders on to get through.

>> congressman stay with us. i want to bring andrew and tracy back into the conversation. andrew weissmann, when you chart what has been revealed in short order in this now intense mick phase of the investigation, you know, what comes next? you know, you've been up close and personal to the ex-president and his inner circle as anybody. what do you anticipate both from the government and the ex-president's legal team. >> nicole, could i ask one question, maybe, which sort of relates a little bit to that, which is for the congressman, because one of the things that is remarkable to me and this is because norms sort of change with this former president where we don't really react the way would if we were dealing with jimmy carter or either of the former bush presidents, who, you know, are reputable. that there's been no explanation from donald trump whatsoever, as

to why he took these, why he didn't return them. what was in them. what was he planning to do with them. why are the folders now empty, and so one question i have, and this does go to sort of next steps, is whether some part of congress including the sort of extremely reputable intelligence communities, both in the house and the senate shouldn't be asking the private citizen who was a public servant to come and testify to explain what happened. he is a citizen all of us would have to respond to a congressional subpoena to give those answers, and why shouldn't that be one of the next steps, at least from congress. it wouldn't interfere with the department's work or the extremely important work that avril haines is doing. why shouldn't that be something that the president who has decided not to voluntarily

disclose and explain what happened, why shouldn't he have to come to congress and explain, given the mission of the intelligence communities. >> you know, i'm all for that, andrew. that's what we should do. it would take a congress that has some members that were on the republican party during watergate who, when it was determined that the then president nixon committed a crime, that's all they needed to hear, and then they stepped forward. but i'm serving in a congress where 147 of my republican colleagues voted against certifying the election of the person who got 7 million more votes. and we're now in an election where over 100 candidates on the republican party from secretary of state to the united states senate have denied that joe biden was elected president. so there's a premise that we should have this in your question, that that they are a committed rule of law branch of the republicans. in fact, what donald trump has

done is not only broken norms, he's in the process of totally destroying what has been a mainstream and very reputable republican party up until his presidency. >> tracy, let me bring you in on this. where does that lever the men and women of the intelligence committee who have for the most part enjoyed bipartisan support of their mission and their work product. >> i think andrew asked such an excellent question and the work that congressman welch is going to do on this damage assessment that haines is doing is so, so critical. but, you know, it's really interesting. i served at the cia under two different administrations, and one took power in a relatively contentious election. however, the cia remained incredibly apolitical, and i think really where that leaves the men and women is still trying to do the work that they are supposed to be doing, and really highlights and

underscores the fact that the intelligence apparatus needs to remain apolitical, and has to remain apolitical, and i think the congressmen really underscore that when he talked about the impact that trump really has had on, you know, republicans wanting to work with democrats to do the right thing. and subpoena him. and so i think it's really really important that the intelligence community and intelligence apparatus as a whole maintains its integrity, and really maintains its apolitical nature. i know it has. >> congressman, do you have any information about either when the intel committee will be briefed on the damage assessment, and do you have any insight from your republican colleagues on that committee as to whether or not that's something they're interested in knowing more about? >> i think they are interested in knowing more about it. i don't know whether it will happen, and i think it's a challenging job. it's got to be done by director haines first.

she has got broad bipartisan support. she's very very respected by republicans and democrats on our intelligence committee. so we're all anxious, time is of the essence, because these, we're talking about national security here, independent of how outrageous it was that trump did. this is the snowden situation. are there individuals who have helped us whose identity is compromised. are there means of collecting, so those will be denied in the future. we have to get on that yesterday. >> congressman peter welch, andrew weissmann, thank you all for spending time with us and starting us off today. we are grateful. when we come back, president joe biden's prime time address to the nation last night offered the clearest contrast yet between a president sounding the alarm about the very real threats against american institutions and american democracy. and a twice impeached ex-president who continues to make those threats. we'll discuss that stark split screen moment in american

political and civil life next. plus it is back to school time not just here at home but in war torn ukraine. that is creating challenges for children who have already been through way too much. our fred dr. erwin red letter will be back to tell how we can help. and the cdc's green light of new and improved covid booster shots, what we need to know. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. after a quick break. don't go anywhere. but seriously we need a reliable way to help keep everyone connected from wherever we go. well at at&t we'll help you find the right wireless plan for you. so, you can stay connected to all your drivers and stores on america's most reliable 5g network. that sounds just paw-fect. terrier-iffic i labra-dore you round of a-paws at&t 5g is fast, reliable and secure for your business.

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in our country today is not normal. donald trump and the maga republicans represent an extremism that threatens the very foundations of our republic. history tells us the blind loyalty to a single leader and a willingness to engage in political violence is fatal to democracy. this is inflammatory. it's dangerous. it's against the rule of law. and we the people must say this is not who we are. today the split screen as clear as ever in what president joe biden says is now an inflection point in america. on one side, a leader clear eyed and willing to talk about the threats to democracy, the rule of law, our rights and the growing danger of political violence here. on the other side, his twice impeached predecessor whose

repeated lies and threats have put american democracy and institutions in grave apparel. president biden called out the ex-president by name. he warned about his pro insurrection election denying maga republican allies and their hold on today's republican party. contrast that with the ex-president who says he's financially supported and met with january 6th capitol insurrectionists in his office. he suggested that if he is ever reelected president, he will offer full pardons and apologies from the united states government to those who have been convicted. let's bring in the reverend alex sharpton, president of the national action network and host of "politics nation" here on msnbc, he along with other civil rights leaders met with the president at the white house today. also joining us alexa mchammond, political reporter for "axios," also an msnbc contributor. rev, i want to hear what was on

the president's mind today and if the speech he gave last night came up? >> well, it did come up. first and foremost, i said it was the kind of speech that i thought the country needed to hear. this is not about republican versus democrat or right versus left. this is a threat to democracy, and the reason why we had requested this meeting, even before we knew about this speech, being that this is the anniversary week of the march on washington. and we wanted to reiterate to him that even democracy is not the same for blacks and other people of color as it is for others, but with democracy off the table for everyone else, we are almost back to pre-civil war days, and that's what the meeting was about, in terms of criminal justice and quoting and all. but he very much took in what we said. we all said it was an exceptional speech. it needed to be said. what kind of country are we

where now we are normalizing violence, and violence is used as a political tool. this is something that needed to be said by the president of the united states. >> and alexei as though trying to bolster the case that president joe biden made to the nation. we're not making this up. the ex-president said that if he's president again, there will be full pardons for the insurrectionists and a formal apology from the united states government. >> yeah, and i think that's the distinction that president biden and other democrats have been trying to make between donald trump and the maga republicans and the whole of the republican party is really important because quite frankly, i think republican party leaders shouldn't want to be looped in with those same people who are pro political violence, who don't think anything of what happened on january 6th of last year who might be supportive of the president's latest announcement of helping these

folks who were capitol rioters, you know, with legal and financial challenges, the contrast for democrats has gotten easier because of what the former president is doing. they have been trying out on the campaign trail this entire cycle to contrast the parties on different issues, whether it was guns, abortion, health care more broadly, and now we're seeing all of this kind of gel and be refined by the president last night into this broader message about pro democracy folks, whether they're in the democratic party, the republican party or identify as independents coming together. >> let me play what we're talking about, rev. this is donald trump yesterday on wendy bell radio. oh, i'm sorry, we don't have it. he said this, i met with and i'm financially supporting people that are incredible. and they were in my office, actually, two days ago. if i decide to run and i win,

i'll be looking very very strongly about pardons, full pardons, and i mean full pardons with an apology to many. he's paying for the defense of insurrectionists, these insurrectionists are being charged in some instances with seditious conspiracy against the united states government. so he is financially, politically and if reelected, he will give full pardon to people who attack the u.s. government. it feels like anyone questioning whether biden went too far last night, it's clear the ex-president is accelerating and escalating faster than the current one. >> there's no question about it because you must remember now, he is saying this about people that not only was committing sedition, and trying to stop the certification of an election by the people of the united states. he's saying this about people who physically harm policemen,

while he claims to be for law and order. he's saying it while there's an active investigation and he's almost full counting at the prosecutors, you know, come get me, and frankly, i hope you do. how does anybody under investigation, two weeks after a raid, talk about pardoning criminals caught on video tape unless, you just do not believe in law at all. and the whole question that we're facing with, and i think president biden hit it last night, is whether we're going to have a nation based on laws and common decency. when you have a former president talk about i want to pardon people that cause death and bloodshed at the u.s. capitol, what are we talking about. why are we even discussing this in mainstream america and political life. >> and alexei, i want to show

you more of what we're talking about, president joe biden sounding a little bit like tim ryan saying i'm not talking about all republicans. i'm talking about maga republicans. here's that sound. >> not every republican, not even the majority of republicans are maga republicans. not every republican embraces their extreme ideology. i know because i've been able to work with these mainstream republicans. but there's no question that the republican party today is dominated, driven and intimidated by donald trump and the maga republicans. and that is a threat to this country. >> it just feels like a crystallization of a message that people have sort of grappled with, and there it was, put pretty succinctly by the current president. >> yeah, and i mean, the former president, barack obama, held a fundraiser for the national

democratic redistricting committee, and he went a step further than president biden did and told donors at the event, you know, that he didn't expect one of the two major political parties as he put it, to systematically empower political minority so that they have more power as long as they can. biden is trying to make a distinction between those extreme republicans as he calls them and the rest of the party. what's interesting, you're sort of seeing a potential split or folks outside of washington thinking there might be an opening to divide the party. florida governor ron desantis, and virginia governor glenn youngkin taking the country by storm in the 2022 midterms, ahead of 2024. they're both rumored to be interested in running for president. desantis is clearly backing these trump-endorsed maga candidates in these, you know, red and battleground states while governor youngkin is instead going to blue states hoping to flip them red, more

purple areas, trying to occupy this kind of like establishment republican lane that, you know, frankly may or may not exist depending on the success of people like, you know, governor youngkin and whether or not any leaders here in washington want to kind of follow that trend. >> we will keep watching with your help. the reverend alex sharpton, alexei thank you so much for spending time with us today. when we come back, the immense challenge facing teachers and their students in ukraine as schools reopen despite the ongoing war there. our friend dr. irvin red lenner is doing incredible things. len is doing incredible things

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as the summer draws to a close, sadly, kids from all around the world are heading back to school, and that includes in ukraine, where millions of school children went back to class for the first time since the war with russia started. 60% of schools are expected to open on time as many of their school buildings have been damaged or destroyed over the last six months of shelling. the toll of war are not only evident in the walls and grounds of the schools but on the children themselves. "new york times" writes with sandbags outnumbering backpacks, class size is limited by how many children can cram into bomb shelters and schools being supplied with first aid kids. the day is not so much an end of

summer recess, but continuation of the bleak season of war. thousands of schools have been damaged by russian bombs and rockets. hundreds completely destroyed, and for millions of children, a day normally filled with excitement and anxiety started with a lesson in what to do when the air-raid alarm wails. joining us, msnbc public health analyst, dr. irwin redlener, cofounder of the action projects, working with the city of warsaw on the ground to address the critical needs of traumatized ukrainian kids seeking refuge in poland. dr. redlener, just talk about this back to school in area. >> right. of course, nicolle, the first work that pops up is heartbreaking. these are children who didn't ask for this war, who have had their homes, their communities leveled by a very brutal attack by the russians. and two out of three kids have had to leave their homes and

communities move either out of the country as refugees or into western ukraine which is what the article in the times was talking about. the things they're bringing with them, nicolle, is an enormous amount of psychological trauma. we would call this shell shocked in world war ii, but now we're calling it children who have been psychologically traumatized. it's important for a lot of reasons. obviously from the humanitarian perspective, we need to take care of these children, but the other thing is that really does interfere with their ability to learn and function in a classroom. that is if they can get to a classroom. and this has been the constant challenge of these children, including the refugees outside the country. but especially the ones in ukraine. they've been through hell basically, and we're expecting to have to squeeze into these classrooms, and not only are they having to deal with crowded conditions and some of them not even getting into a classroom, but they're also now getting lessons in what to do if the

nuclear reactor in eastern ukraine blows up as a consequence of the war. so there's problem upon problem, nicolle, and what we're trying to do is trying to figure out how to help the ukrainians with the help of many of our donors and supporters, deal with some of these issues, which in fact, can be dealt with. >> ukrainian source of mine said that what a lot of parents are grappling with is a choice between remote learning, which everyone in this country knows the pitfalls of that, or going to school where there's an adequate bomb shelter. that because russia's tactics have turned to clearly terroristic tactics, attacks and strikes on civilian targets that even the schools are known targets, and that this is one of putin's strategies of war to terrorize the civilian population, to weaken the country's resolve to continue to fight. that feels like it could go on a

very long time. how do we build almost a permanent bubble around these kids. or is that an impossible errand? >> that would be very very challenging, and the thing now is that the war has to stop. you know, there have been people pushing for ukraine to keep fighting until they quote unquote defeat russia, and i'm not a military expert, but, you know, i read a lot about it. i think what has to happen, what will happen, in order to bring this violence to a close is going to be some kind of negotiated piece. that's got to happen. every single day, the war goes on, there are more children being traumatized, families being killed, and we've seen children. i've seen children personally in ukraine children's hospitals in lviv where kids have seen their parents killed right in front of them. besides getting physically injured themselves. and it just is unbelievably horrifying and the war's got to stop. in the meantime, the bubble will be created by officials by

teachers by their parents and by others who just care about them, and what we're working on right now is, in fact, training teachers online in a very extensive, dramatic program we're developing that will help teachers understand how to deal with classrooms filled with traumatized children. it can be done. it also has to be taught. >> that's incredible. dr. redlener is sticking around. we're going to ask about reformulated covid booster shots. what they mean for all of us and what we should do heading into the fall. that's next. we should do headio the fall that's next.

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ask your gastroenterologist about rinvoq. and learn how abbvie could help you save. there's some important news to tell you about in our country's ongoing fight since covid. the cdc has recommended that most americans receive an updated booster shot, one that targets the newer variants, like the dominant ba.5 omicron sub variant, the news comes after the fda earlier this week signed off on both pfizer and moderna's new reformulated booster shots. scientists hope they will decrease the chances of a big winter or fall outbreak. dr. redlener is back. take me through what we should do if we have -- if we're due for a booster. is this all that will be available. is it another choice, what are the pros and cons. >> so, you know, why don't we

skip all the controversy, the debates and why didn't they do this and that, and i want to get to the hub, the nub of what is being recommended by the fda, and now the cdc, and that is this, if it's been at least two months and up to six months since your last vaccine, your last booster, you are now eligible for and should get one of the two manufacturer vaccines that are specifically designed for omicron. so moderna's version is available to people 18 years of age and older. the pfizer version is for people 12 years of age and older, so if your kids fit into that category or you do, it's time to get the booster. so that's the range, two months to six months after your last shot. that said, if you've had a preexisting condition, if you have chronic illness or you're auto immune or older, you should go ahead and get it sooner

rather than later. that's really about all we need to know right now, nicolle. >> what is your forecast for the fall. what do you expect, or what should we be bracing for? >> you know, hope for the best, prepare for the worst is the kind of ongoing public health motto here, and i'm concerned that we could easily have a significant surge of covid again in fall. and if we do, it could be pretty serious with lots of spread, lots of illness, we're already seeing 500 deaths a day more or less, from covid. that could go up this fall. the more we're immunized, the better we'll be. >> thank you for keeping it simple. thank you so much for spending time with us on these stories. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. k for us we'll be right back. totaled hi. timber... fortunately, they were covered by progressive, so it was a happy ending... for almost everyone.

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even more important for all of us to really process. when someone like her, someone like sue gordon with 30 plus years of service at the highest echelons of our country's intelligence community, someone who has briefed american presidents back to ronald reagan, personally briefed then president donald trump when she says we're looking at potentially devastating consequences to u.s. national security, we need to pay attention to. we heard from a lot of you asking us to make the full interview with sue gordon online and screaming. we're happy to report it's live online at msnbs.com, and streaming on peacock. take a look at this. quick break for us, we'll be right back. quick break for us, we'll be right back so i go triple... with trelegy. with 3 medicines in 1 inhaler,... it's the only once-daily treatment for adults that takes triple action against asthma symptoms. trelegy helps make breathing easier,... improves lung function,... and lasts for 24 hours.

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new housing units in all 58 counties, including: permanent supportive housing, tiny homes communities, project roomkey supportive hotel units... and intensive mental health and addiction treatment. in short, 27 means getting people off the streets and into housing. yes on 27. another week of shows during these truly extraordinary times. we are so grateful. "the beat with katie phang" in for ari melber starts now. >> same to you,