beschloss a slice the status of the battle -- two months away from the critical midterm elections. later in the show, a very special edition of the velshi banned book club featuring the one and only margaret atwood. we begin this hour with a sometimes controversial presidential power. the power of the pardon. u.s. constitution bestows a handful of races the american president. one of which is the quote power to grant reprieve and pardons for offenses against the united states, and quote. which seem callous presidents over the centuries you see this -- authority for good. often giving mercy to those who are wrongfully committed or convicted or in more modern times, those who were simply railroaded by the criminal justice system. but like almost all legal and constitutional norms in this country, this one has been complicated in the era of donald trump. let's be clear, donald trump did not issue a lot of pardons. in fact, he issued fewer than most other presidents which

makes it all the more concerning when you look at how many of trump's pardons carried the stink of political patronage and best in corrupt self-interest at worst. according to pew research center over the course of his four years in office trump only granted 237 acts of clemency. that's the third lowest number of pardons for any president in history. only the two president bush is pardoned fewer people. it would seem that trump was extremely selective about who he pardoned. still some of his pardons were widely praised. like alice johnson in 2020 who was serving life in prison for a nonviolent drug conviction. he posthumously pardoned the historical figure season being anthony, arrested for voting illegally. in 1870 to inject johnson the first black heavyweight boxing champ who is subject to a racist conviction in 1913 for transporting a white woman across state lines. but he also pardoned a robes gallery of political figures

including many of his own associates. some of whom's -- directly related to trump's own interest. you may recall some of these bigger names two sentences trump either commuted or pardoned altogether. steve bannon, trump's former chief strategist in the white house and the ceo of his 2016 campaign. convicted of defrauding donors to a privately funded effort to build trump's border wall. michael flynn, trump's former national security adviser who pleaded guilty to lying to the fbi as part of the trump russia investigation. paul manafort, trump's 2016 campaign chairman. who was convicted of financial fraud. roger stone, a friend and adviser to trump who is convicted for lying under oath to congress and threatening a witness is part of attempts to impede the russia investigation. charles kushner the father of trump's son-in-law jared kushner, who pleaded guilty in 2000 and 4 to 16 counts of tax evasion. donald trump is no longer free to abuse pardon power because he's no longer the president. but he's actually still trying.

trump's been proudly hinting at about the run for the presidency in 2024 at least now saying out loud that if he wins the presidency again, he will look to pardon those convicted of storming the capital on january 6th. >> and you see what they're doing with the sentencing and i will tell you, and i'm looking at it very carefully. i've studied it i study cases. contributions should be made, we have to do it, they have some good lawyers. and i will tell, you i will look very, very favorably about full pardons if i decide to run and if i win, i will be looking very strongly about pardons. full pardons. >> i think that's probably going to be the best because even if they go two months or six months, they have sentences that go a lot longer than that. we'll be looking very, very seriously at full pardons. because we can't let that happen. what's happened here.

and i mean full pardons with an apology to many an apology. not just full pardon's full pardons with an apology. nbc news justice reporter ryan reilly points out that trump's eldest son, don jr., is essentially helping fund-raise for some of the defendants. the angry trump -- re-to the link to a crowd funding site for a rioter who attacked police officers on camera and then bragged about the importance of the violence. call me crazy. i don't think any of these tenure six defendants should expect financial support anytime from donald trump considering he won't even help pay the mounting legal expenses for his own pitbull,, rudy giuliani. this is actually serious. it doesn't sound like but it's serious. the dangling of pardons for those who committed violence in the name of donald trump on january six. donald trump is sending a message to the next insurrectionist. he's letting anyone who may consider that kind of political violence no i got your back.

joining me now is hugo lowe, permission reporter for the guardian covers a near six insurrection. and the trump investigations. hugo, good morning to you. thank you for being with us. i thought it was a joke when i first heard that he had said this on a radio show. i've never ever heard of any historical example of someone saying when i become president, i will issue pardons to specific people. >> yeah, i think that's -- there is no parallel here. we never had a president who has effectively incited his own supporters to attack the capitol and then promising -- has said don't worry, we'll let you walk. despite serving convicted for things like seditious conspiracy. i think there are no parallels here. that reinforces how trump likes to throw these pardons out. people who are sufficiently loyal to him and don't cooperate when investigators. if we go back to the pardon that trump issued at the end of his term. all those people you earlier

mention. these are all people and also before. these are all people didn't cooperate with the russia investigation. there were people didn't cooperate with congress. roger stone -- these are all people that trump suggested to them, look, if you cooperator down cooperate against the investigators and i will save you at the end. this seems to be an exact repeat of that behavior. >> so, in the abstract, it's weird and terrible and there's no historical a parallel but it's not in the abstract because last night don trump delivered a speech in pennsylvania in which he rolled up his supporters using language that was quite inflammatory. calling president biden and democrats the enemies of the state and saying that they don't have a right to take this country from you. when you combine rhetoric that either incites violence or release incites massive political polarization with the dangling of pardons for people who actually used violence to overcome an election.

you have a dangerous brew here. >> i think that's right. at the start of the trump presidency, i don't think anyone believed for a moment that anyone would storm the capital. there was a lot of free passes from people saying this is just political rhetoric. this is just what politicians do. except it continue a six, we actually had people act upon what trump was saying. he now knows and people around the former president acknowledge this. trump now knows if he says certain things if he says them in a particularly belligerent manner his supporters will take that to be a literal truth. and they will go and act on it. he now knows he has his power and this authority to kind of compound his supporters to do things that they might know the ways do with any other political candidate. and so when he starts making comments at rallies -- supercharged environment and supporters already coercion devoted to him. then i think you are laying the groundwork, let's say for the next presidential election that if he loses, you have the seat

here of a potential repeat of january six. >> the complicating factor he was in pennsylvania rally for doug mastriano. pennsylvania is almost a mirror of arizona right now. they've got a senatorial candidate in gubernatorial candidate both of whom are election deniers. but the whom have said if we are -- if we become the governor we will take actual actions to undo prior elections or take control of election systems. this is, again, not obstruction. it's possibly politically violent talk. it's combined with an election that could actually help overturn election. >> if you take a look at arizona for instance. that's kind of the more -- that's the stay where we have election deniers who are kind of more forthright in this perhaps. people like mark -- he's a member of the oath keepers. he's a member of the far-right group that were directly involved in january 6th. directly involved in storming the capitol. the oath keepers in the proud boys these are two far-right moves that we --

lead the way into breaking into the capitol and he was a direct and provide sort of direct number of them. he's continuing to say that the election was stolen. and that he wants to be certified the results. this is not theoretical. these are people, and outspoken -- he's the kind of genuinely believe that the election was stolen and wants to decertify president vitamin -- you have these people running for office in the next election. i think it's a concern. >> it is not theoretical, as you pointed out. hugo, -- congressional reporter for the guardian. joining me now is democratic congressman raja krishnamoorthi from illinois. he's a member of the house intel oversight and reform committee. congressman, good morning to you. thank you for being with us. it's good to see you as always. let's pick up exactly where i left off with hugo. it's not theoretical. the stuff that donald trump has been saying. the dangling of pardons -- the encouragement of the language he uses with his supporters. the idea that we have five senatorial candidates, republican candidates who are a

little bit wackadoodles and states like arizona and pennsylvania which are on the line with gubernatorial candidates who are election deniers. this is some theoretical. all of this stuff is actually real and potentially dangerous in two months from now. >> that's right. i think that with the dangling of the pardons one thing that we talked about rapidly during the term of this ration. when he was president. was that he often did this as a signaling tool to keep people quiet. and i think this might even be signaling tool towards people who might cooperate with the january six committee. with the justice department in any number investigations of him. or even the georgia or new york proceedings. and and secondly i think you're absolutely right. he is trying to -- he's gone full maga at this point. he has decided that he's going to deny that he committed any wrongdoing or call whatever he did in terms of wrongdoing

justified. and he's going to get people so riled up in his corner that i fear that they're going to commit violence. and this kind of use of political violence potentially is even more dangerous to our republic right now. >> let me ask you about the search on mar-a-lago and the polarization of it. there are a lot of people saying that at the very least it's a technical breaking of the law that should be pursued. i think as an intel committee person, need say it's much more serious than that. it's not the dangle breaking of the law. the city of the rugby names and sources who are out there. but there are others who say whatever it is that gets donald trump prosecuted is going to lead to major deeper fisheries in our political system. how do you address that fear? >> i think the justice department and fbi have to do their jobs outside any other considerations. going to your initial point,

this is not a case of an over do live our book. this is not sloppy bookkeeping. this is a staggering refusal and woeful retention of hundreds of classified documents, often containing exquisite information bearing on our national security. i think the biggest theme here, ali, is how do we guard our national security and how do we guard it when a former president willfully refuses to treat classified documents properly? and then resist returning them when he specifically asked to do so. and so that is a huge problem. then of course we're connecting simultaneously a damage assessment with regard to how those documents may have damaged our national security. and what we can do to mitigate that provided from happening. in the future. >> congressman, let me ask you about this mystery around these files that were found. empty files. they had top secret

designations on them. it was fastening to see the photograph that came out of the inventory that these are not -- there's no chance it mistakenly have to get these things out of the white house thinking that maybe they contained other things. that said, intelligence experts have said don't make too much of the fact that these files were found empty because it's quite likely that they were used for transportation and that the stuff they're in or that was there in, the ten or 11,000 documents or found were just separate from the files. i know that your intel committee guys so you can only tell me so much without killing me. what do you make of that analysis? >> i'm not gonna kill you ali. so the issue here is we just don't know the answer to the question of what was in this empty file folders. there are dozens and dozens that thing more than 40 that were, that had the cloth of a document banner on them. we don't know what was supposed to be in those documents based on the publisher reports. there is also dozens and dozens

i think more than 40 folders that said return to military aides. so that obviously suggest that there were documents related to the defense matters. i think that's what is connected to that stat she doesn't vote in the warrant with regard to the espionage act. that's the woeful retention concealment or destruction of documents related to defense matters. when you then say that many of these are top secret or ts/sci, the highest classification of intelligence that's what gets peoples eyebrows raised and people very, very concerned about the situation. >> you've had to look, have you had a case to look at ts sci files like -- that process is not -- this one out and about your house accidentally. >> i've never reviewed any of these except in a secure facility, underneath the capitol in a bunker guarded by

armed police officers. and also they take inventory of these documents. they have people standing, watching as you reviewed these documents to make sure they retrieve them upon completion of the review. they're often related to covid programs, human intelligence sources. the electronic monitoring of foreign communications and the like. this is what's called the most exquisite of intelligence that the intelligence community keeps. >> congressman, you could see. you think of me with us. especially on this labor day weekend. congressman robert -- come -- coming up this hour, classes in session for a very relevant fellow she history lesson. we're going all the way back to 1776. turns out a member than it which on adams four saw the threat of democracy that we are currently facing. i cannot some thinking about my conversation with the handmaid's tale author margaret atwood in the eerie timing of the whole thing. just one day before the

shocking roe v. wade supreme court decision leak, the conversation didn't and there though. bringing the rest of today. this is velshi. this is velshi me? about 1000. walgreens...millions. ♪♪ i cannot miss her big debut. with your booster, i think you'll be there. for every twirl. i got a shot so my sister won't get sick. way to go, big bro! so while we're here... flu shot, as well? let's do it. when you need to talk vaccinations, our pharmacists are here ♪♪ in a 1776 letter to a fellow

revolutionary, john adams worried that the risk of a demagogue who could exploit public anxieties would always pose a threat of popular government. two months before the country would declare its independence

from the british crown john adams who would go on to become the second president of the united states warned ominously quote we may please ourselves with the prospect of free and popular governments but i fear that in every assembly members will obtain influenced by noise, not sense. by nina's, not greatness. by ignorance, not learning. by contracted hearts, not large souls. there is one thing, my dear sir, that must be attempted and most secretly observed, or we are all undone. there must be decency and respect or we are undone. in a popular government, this is the only way of supporting order. and quote. 246 years later, the american experiment finds itself threatened by the noise that john adams warned about. political violence, bullying, disinformation, stopped by an agitator who believes he's bigger than the republic. not since the civil war has the nation facing internal threat on the scale and on thursday, president biden called out this

danger by name. >> too much of what's happening in our country today is not normal. donald trump and the maga republicans represent and extremism that threatens the very foundations of our republic. history tells us that the blind loyalty to a single leader and a willingness to engage in political violence is fatal to democracy. this is inflammatory. it's dangerous. it's against the rule of law. we the people must say this is not who we are. >> the first time in his presidency biden pointedly and forcefully called out the threat trump fired back at biden's comments during a rally in passed saturday in pennsylvania. >> joe biden came to philadelphia pennsylvania to give the most vicious hateful and divisive speech ever

delivered by an american president. vilifying 75 million citizens plus another probably -- 150. we want to be accurate about it. as threats to democracy and as enemies of the state. you are all enemies of the state. he's an enemy of the state. you want to know the truth. >> leaders of the far-right maga movement also responded calling biden's comments a declaration of war. the republican congressman matt gates tweeted the joe biden just declare war on red state america? sure hope not. congresswoman and resident republicans versus marjorie taylor greene demanded that biden be removed from office quote, joe biden just declared all of us enemies of the state. biden is a danger to us all. joe biden must be impeached. after the break, were to america's most brilliant historians to discuss the crisis and democracy and what president biden's speech means for the country moving forward.

michael beschloss nonchalantly -- standing by. anding by. try boost® high protein with 20 grams of protein for muscle health. versus 16 grams in ensure high protein. boost® high protein also has key nutrients for immune support. boost® high protein.

i recommend nature made vitamins because i trust their quality. they were the first to be verified by usp... ...an independent organization that sets strict quality and purity standards. nature made. the number one pharmacist recommended vitamin and supplement brand. for decades, i've worked at the intersection of domestic violence and homelessness. the number one pharmacist recommended so when prop 27 promised solutions to homelessness, i took a good, hard look. it's not a solution. 90% of the money goes to the out-of-state corporations who wrote it. very little is left for the homeless. don't let corporations exploit homelessness to pad their profits. vote no on 27.

♪♪ with 20 made-to-order griddle combos, there's a perfect plate for everyone. great value for all your favorites only from ihop. download the app and earn free food with every order. ever notice how stiff clothes great value for all your favorites only from ihop. can feel rough on your skin? for softer clothes that are gentle on your skin, try downy free & gentle downy will soften your clothes without dyes or perfumes. the towel washed with downy is softer, and gentler on your skin. try downy free & gentle. with us to discuss the crisis

in democracy or to build in american historians. michael beschloss is and nbc news presidential historian. he's of the fires that history on peacock and the author of many books including an important one called presidents of war. the epic story from 1807 to modern times. doctor jelani cobb is a ph.d. in american history. he's a staff writer for the new yorker. he's the dean at the columbia journalism school and author of the book the substance of hope. barack obama and the paradox of progress. gentlemen, thank you for being with us. let me start with you. i was -- i thought of you guys because of the speech on thursday night. but so much has happened since including the speech last night. donald trump in pennsylvania. donald trump dangling the idea of pardons for those who have been convicted in january 6th.

it seems like we're coming unraveled just in the last couple of days. give me your sense of the last few days and where we are. >> so i think that we should be mindful of just how extraordinary this moment is. the speech that joe biden gave, first, this was joe biden giving the speech. the person who has defined moderation in centrism throughout his extensive political career in the united states. we've reached a point where even he has become alarmed by the tenor of everything that's happened. and that should be alarming for the rest of us as well. listen to the things that he was actually responding to. january 6th. in the -- heated rhetoric about civil war and insurrection that has followed in the aftermath of the raid at mar-a-lago. all sorts of things that -- vectors of significant danger. for democracy.

and i think that the other part of it is that -- him giving the speech it would be easy to kind of make the false equivalency between the kind of calling out that he's done and calling out that donald trump has historically done. and pointed to dangerous of the opposing party presents to society. the difficulty -- the difference, the distinction here is the actual array of facts that joe biden has relying on and making that argument. >> michael i'm going to ask the same question of you. where do you think we are in the last few days? >> i think jelani said it perfectly. i think the other thing is that compared in history, go back to 1860, the eve of the civil war. we're not on the eve of a national civil war between two armies but this country is terribly divided. and talking about the criticism that trump made of joe biden for being divisive. abraham lincoln said in 1858 as we all know this country can survive as a house divided.

half slavin half free. that's about as a voice of the you can get. that's what presidents do and times of this. the same thing with franklin results 1940 when americans were just -- do we possibly go to war against hitler and the fascist or do we not? i love the fact that you mentioned john adams. the system that john adams and james madison and hamilton and the other founders built said that we are depending on a president -- being elected of great character who desire is to unify the country and frame the issues for the people of so they consider them in instead what we've got. donald trump imply he's going to run for president again. hawking pardons if they were drumsticks and suggesting if he were president he would inspire domestic violence and i should say domestic terrorism although he doesn't call it that.

even threatening doing that if the department of justice should indict him or someone around. >> you know what stood out to me -- go ahead. >> add something quickly did that. i'm glad you brought up that house divided speech that abraham lincoln gave because in the midst of this, there were two speeches that i thought about winichakul biden gave that speech last week. the first was the house divide the speech. the other was a speech given by william henry -- about four months after that. which was the irreplaceable conflicts speech. both of them made these points that are really pertinent to what we're thinking about now. this speech has been given two years before the start of the civil war. three years before the start of the civil war. the fact of it is that they pointed to the limit of politics. that we have reached the limits of politics and how politics could resolve the divisive issues of the day. and biden is essentially saying we may not be at that point now

but we are at a place where we need to be mindful that we can come to those kinds of this asterisk circumstances. >> on a more simple basis, michael one of the things that heard in the speeches when he -- in donald trump's response last night was when he referred to joe biden as the enemy of the state. that's been repeated by a number of people. we went through four years recall the media the enemy of the people. that rhetoric worked. it really did work. nobody can tell us in the media it didn't work. trust in the media which was already in decline continue to plummet and people have decided they were going to just stay in their own silos. when he says this stuff it's not just rhetoric. this guy has a lot of power to make people particularly people who are already following him. in conservative echo chambers believe it and act on it. >> michael. all right, jelani, giving that

he you, we have a technical problem with michael. same question goes to you. >> absolutely. my position as dean of the journalism school. this is one of the things are very concerned about. that we have students will be reporting in this kind of context. kind of fact free context. and now a card reality where people place reality next to factual reality next to conspiracy theories and those things are given can equal weight. the immense difficulty that presents for actually doing what the press supposed to do informing the public. not to mention the element of danger that this exacerbates. that's something that we've been loathe to talk about but it's an actual reality. >> actually one for them in the same speech. donald trump linked the department of justice's criminal investigation of his actions directly to his supporters. he said it was not just my home that was raided. it was the hopes and dreams of every citizen who i've been fighting for since the moment i

came down the golden escalator in 2015. wanting to represent the people -- referring to trump tower. that's when he came down the escalator. michael, it's remarkable. donald trump is turning what is either in the very best case eternal crime of documents being removed from where they once was to be in the very first case something substantially more dangerous to national security and turning it into not just the witch hunt the language he uses but an attack on the american people. an attack on anyone who ever supported donald trump in the old world if someone who supported committed a crime you might say hey i'm done with you. donald trump is actually making this about everybody who supports them. >> exactly. he's working -- you were talking about donald trump referring to joe biden and people who like him as enemies of the state. all say something in the next four to say on your program or anyone else --

hear donald trump is releasing history but the problem is the history is using its not american history, it's soviet history. that's what stalin and the stalinesque used to say about people who stood in their way. and in the case of stolen, as we tragically know, millions of people were killed. i don't think there's a remotely thank god chance of that happening now but these things do have very dark echoes just as you are saying. >> thank you for your input. this is a good conversation and we will have many time sadly. michael beschloss nbc news presidential historian jelani cobb as a staff writer for the new yorker and the dean of the columbia journalism school. coming up, the handmaid's tale had the new york times bestseller list right after trump's inauguration. then again after roe fell. decades after its initial publication. there is a reason that this book continues to resonate for generations of readers. coming up next and never before seen conversation with margaret atwood herself. this is velshi. wait... did you say veri

zon for just $30? (mom) it's their best unlimited price ever. (cool guy) $30...that's awesome. (dad) yeah, and it's from the most reliable 5g network in america. (woman) for $30 a line, i'm switching now. (mom) yeah, it's easy and you get $960 when you switch the whole family. (geek) wow... i've got to let my buddies know. (geek friend) we're already here! (vo) the network you want. the price you love. only from verizon. once upon a time, at the magical everly estate, landscaper larry and his trusty crew... were delayed when the new kid totaled his truck. timber... fortunately, they were covered by progressive, so it was a happy ending... for almost everyone. new york city is known for many

things. among them, it's many world-class museums. this labor day weekend cities going to gain another one. on monday, any museum honoring the baseball pioneer jackie robinson and his legacy will open to the public. it's taken more than a decade to create. and isn't bc's ron allen reports, the museum's mission goes way beyond sports. >> jackie robinson forever remembered for breaking baseball's color barrier in 1947. the new museum proudly displays his uniform and that and a lot of his stories for us from a billion. his widow, rachel robinson, now 100 insisted the museum focus on her husband's work beyond the playing field. which she has said it was more important to both of them. >> she wanted us to talk about jackie's dog commitment to his community and to first classes and shipping available for all americans. >> she helped design the museum. >> this is jackie robinson and

martin luther king. they were close. >> they were close. yep. >> robinson's army uniform. where he became one of only a few black officers and face a court martial for refusing to move to the back of a military bus. 11 years before rosa parks. >> as a black man, i find it quite discouraging to look around and find how little has been done to lift minorities from the depths of poverty. >> after baseball he started a bank and ran a construction company that built affordable housing. >> he was the original activists athlete. >> he was just 53 when he died. >> he did a lot of those 53 years. >> so much that robinson museum is being held at some one of the first new york city dedicated largely to the civil rights movement. >> what do you think you remember the most from this museum? >> that he was an activist and someone who was in -- encouraging and someone who helps other people. >> the space determined to inspire future oration to continue robinson's work. >> national baseball hall of

fame -- >> nbc news. new york. >> joining me now is the host of the sunday so jonathan capehart. jonathan, i missing my's friend. michael steele the nice cabin for you including wearing the square. he hardly puts a tie on. he put a tie on and he wore a pocket square. he said you get a keep up key part standards and i agree. >> i'm glad he did because he knows what to happen otherwise. you know ali i can't wait to go to the jackie robinson museum because we all know him as a baseball player but as that report shows he was much more than that. he was a pivotal figure in this country moving to where in need to be in terms of racial equity and justice. but ali, we got a lot as usual on tap for the sunday show. including a sunday show exclusive with white house press secretary kareen jean pierre. rachel is on me to talk about a number of issues including the water crisis in jackson mississippi. and president biden's message to the nation about mega republicans. plus students in uvalde texas

had back to school on tuesday just three months after the massacre at robb elementary love 19 students and two teachers dead. we'll talk about the measures and place to address anxious parents and students. get this. ali the relentless attacks against the lgbtq+ community have people making some drastic decisions even uprooting their families to leave states where they were born and raised. we're going have to ceo of family equality's stacey stevenson who did just that. should join me to talk about it all that in a little bit more coming up on the sunday show, ali. >> looking forward to it. good have you back. jonathan kaye part. the ground right after velshi for jonathan sunday show starting at 10 am eastern. special addition of the velshi banned book club it's coming up. i wish morgan i would have been classic the handmaid's tale did not resonate so much at this point in time but it feels closer to reality with each passing day. and she agrees. stay tuned for more of my

conversation with the sensational margaret atwood. nal margaret atwood. despite treatment it disrupts my skin with itch. it disrupts my skin with rash. but now, i can disrupt eczema with rinvoq. rinvoq is not a steroid, topical, or injection. it's one pill, once a day, that's effective without topical steroids. many taking rinvoq saw clear or almost-clear skin while some saw up to 100% clear skin. plus, they felt fast itch relief some as early as 2 days. that's rinvoq relief. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections and blood clots, some fatal, cancers including lymphoma and skin cancer, death, heart attack, stroke, and tears in the stomach or intestines occurred. people 50 and older with at least one heart disease risk factor have higher risks. don't take if allergic to rinvoq, as serious reactions can occur. tell your doctor if you are or may become pregnant. disrupt the itch and rash of eczema. talk to your doctor about rinvoq. learn how abbvie can help you save.

♪ ♪ we believe there's an innovator in all of us. ♪ that's why we build technology that makes it possible for every business... and every person... to come to the table and do more incredible things. this is john. he hasn't worked this hard to only get this far with his cholesterol. taken with a statin, leqvio can lower bad cholesterol and keep it low with two doses a year. side effects were injection site reaction,

joint pain, urinary tract infection, diarrhea, chest cold, pain in legs or arms, and shortness of breath. with leqvio, lowering cholesterol becomes just one more thing life throws your way. ask your doctor about leqvio. lower. longer. leqvio. lower. longer. i'll pick this one up. i earn 3% cash back on dining including takeout with chase freedom unlimited. so, it's not a problem at all. you guys aren't gonna give me the fake bill fight? c'mon, kev. you're earning 3% cash back. humor me. where is my wallet?

i am paying. where is my wallet? i thought i gave it to you. oooohhh? oh, that's not it either. no. no. stop, i insist. that was good though. earn big time with chase freedom unlimited with no annual fee. how do you cashback? chase. make more of what's yours. it's the all-new subway series menu. twelve irresistible new subs. the most epic sandwich roster ever created. ♪♪ it's subway's biggest refresh yet! ♪ ♪ this is the moment. for a treatment for moderate-to-severe eczema. cibinqo — fda approved. 100% steroid free.

not an injection, cibinqo is a once-daily pill for adults who didn't respond to previous treatments. and cibinqo helps provide clearer skin and less itch. cibinqo can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. before and during treatment, your doctor should check for infections and do blood tests. tell your doctor if you've had hepatitis b or c, have flu-like symptoms, or are prone to infections. do not take with medicines that prevent blood clots. serious, sometimes fatal infections, lymphoma, lung, skin and other cancers, serious heart-related events, and blood clots can happen. people 50 and older with heart disease risk factors have an increased risk of serious heart-related events or death with jak inhibitors. this is the moment. but we've only just begun. speak with your doctor about cibinqo today. an innovation from pfizer. kickstart your fall refresh speak with your doctor about cibinqo today. with wayfair's labor day sale. shop indoor and outdoor area rugs up to 70% off. cooking must haves up to 60% off. and kitchen and bathroom upgrades from $19.99. shop our labor day sale now through sept 7th. ♪♪

here goes nothing. hey greg. uhh...hello? it's me, your heart! really? yes! recording an ekg in 30 seconds. tada! wow, that was fast. you know it! kardia offers the only personal ekgs that detect six of the most common arrhythmias in just 30 seconds. so you can manage your heart health from home, or on the go. your heart rhythm is normal. no arrhythmias in sight. i wonder what my doctor would say. ooh! let's find out! with kardia, you can email your ekg directly to them or send it to a cardiologist for review. kardia can do all that? all that and then some, greg! kardia also gives you access to heart health reports and automatic ekg sharing. what next? let's get some fresh air. been cooped up for too long. yeah... ♪♪ kardia mobile card is available for just $99. get yours at kardia.com or amazon. it's the all-new subway series menu!

12 irresistible new subs... like #9 the champ. rotisserie style chicken double monterey cheddar. the champ is truly made for a champ. gee, thanks chuck. who said anything about you? it's subway's biggest refresh yet. america, that is the author of

the seismic heavily handmaid's tale started the banned book club, i started our conversation with a quote from the american author oscar. wild life imitates art. far more than our timid takes life. margaret hour joins us on sunday may the 1st. hours later on may 2nd, a draft of the supreme court decision on dobbs versus jackson's women health organization leaked. it was a decision that, once it was issued explicitly, overturned roe v. wade. and next to the constitutional right to abortion. senate women back 50 years and

opening a horrific new chapter of american history. rushing to active flurry in new abortion bans and restrictions. each one more cruel than the last. life imitating, aren't indeed. my conversation with margaret atwood went all the way to the end of the show, but after the likes faith is and another show started, she and i continued our conversation. we recorded a deeper and more wide reaching interview, exclusively for nbc's screaming streaming platform peacock. as we continue to discuss the themes intrinsic to the handmaid's tale, women's bodily autonomy in the dangers of a theocracy, it feels only right to show you a little bit more. so take a look. >> when you wanted to write about a totalitarian, authoritarian state, you wondered what form it would take. and back in 1985 when you wrote this, you thought it would be a theocracy. in 2022, totalitarianism and authoritarianism are in better shape than they were when you wrote it. do you still think that if it were the united states and we

were to get that kind of authoritarian rule that it would be based in religion? >> that is already happening. in a number of states. the excuse for all of these laws that you have been talking about is really a religious one. it is based on a religious belief and let us say here that we must distinguish between a belief, an opinion, and actual evidence based factual knowledge. the difference is that you can prove or disprove the third one but you cannot prove or disprove the first one. a belief is a belief and it is not evidence based. and in opinion can be either based on -- a belief or on a set approvable facts. and all of these ideas that

request to themselves as a human being, that is a belief. >> let me ask you about -- what you are thinking in 1985. it is a dystopian novel about a future that could be bad. and that particular case, bad for women. but bad for everybody, bad for democracy in society. there were some winners in it, but it was kind of grim generally. do you feel better or worse about the future in 2022 than you did in 1985? >> i would say quite a lot worse. it is because something that was a nascent movements in the 80s is now become pretty full-fledged. and people have seen raising religious slogans as a pathway to political power. and they have taken that pathway, and many of them have succeeded but it is a sham version of christianity in my opinion. >> in fact, is it anything to

do with christianity? donald trump, he made it sound like he was wrapped in religious conservativism even though history does not just any of that at all. but it was a pathway to power. in the handmaid's tale, were you predicting that religion itself, or at least provisions of religion, would become the evidence form of government? or was that all meant to be a pathway to power, and religion was just a convenient hook? >> well, we are just talking about the united states, here. okay? we are not even talking about canada. it would be a lot harder in canada. we are not talking about england because they have their religious war in the 17th century. so whatever else they might do, they are unlikely to do that. but the united states never had a religious war. they had war. it was not a religious war. if anything, the american civil

war, the bible thumping was done by the north. so yes. they never had that out and out religious war. but they had watched the religious wars going on in europe, and that is why they wrote the constitution in the way that they did. they wanted freedom to worship so that people would not murder one another in the name of having one religion conquer over another religion. and i think the thing to ask about religion is not what religion you practice, but how are you practicing it. are you practicing it to harm other people, or are you practicing it in the form of support and consolation for yourself. d and there is a big difference. >> -- religion in the united states because there's enough of a

population base willing to buy into one particular interpretation of it. unfortunately, in the states where you are seeing that it is in congress ali teamed up with a form of white supremacism which has no basis in the bible. and no bases in historical fact. in fact if you want to see a -- it's called there is no way jesus. it's very unlikely that jesus was blond and blue wide. >> let me ask you about a passage on page one 74 that struck me given the amount of attention that we're giving to what happened on january six 2021. the words for the book are keep calm of the southern television. everything is under control.

that was when they suspended the constitution. they said it would be temporary. there wasn't even any rioting in the streets. people stayed home at night watching television looking for some direction. there wasn't even an enemy you could put your finger on. that hits home as you sit here on a new show in a world where there are completely different views as to what happened during an attempted insurrection on january 6th. this idea that the news was what your characters in the handmaid's tale dependent on to tell them the truth because other good reliable sources have information of been cut off. >> yes well, first thing any respectable coup does is -- seize the communication channels. so they head for the television station and the radio station as one of their very first acts

and that of course -- on the difference between january the 6th what happens in the handmaid's tale is that what happens in the handmaid's tale was better organized. >> i want to look at when your other works. a few years before you published the handmaid's tale, you published something called second words in which you write i began as a profoundly a political writer. but then i began to do with all novelists and poets do. i began to describe the world around me. now you have not stopped writing in all of that time. far from it. you write a great deal. tell me about the evolution of your politics. where they sort of baked when you wrote the handmaid's tale and the world has unfolding as you predicted? or has their politics changed in any way? >> i don't have any baked politics. i didn't grow up in a family that had a big politics. they weren't very baked when

they were a lot of other -- they were scientists and scientists like to look at evidence. and they like to test evidence and they like to see whether the hypothesis that they had been presented with this crew. in one of those old-fashioned people for whom truth actually still matters. >> if you can believe it, there is even more not just from margaret atwood. nbc's exclusive streaming service peacock is home to additional extended conversations from some of our best to most poignant book club meetings. we always do an extended version and you can check it out on a peacock. that is for me this morning thank you for watching velshi catch me here next saturday and sunday from eight to 10 am eastern and over get velshi is always available as a podcast. you can list of the entire show on the go at anytime subscribe and listen for free anywhere you get your podcasts. have a very enjoyable labor day

weekend. sunday show which i've been caper begins right now. which i've bee caper begins right now >> a tale of two presidents. after president biden rallies the country to defense democracy, donald trump riles up the maga crowd. >> you are all enemies of the states. he's an enemy of the state, if you want to know the truth. >> white house press secretary kareen jean pierre joins me for an exclusive interview on the dueling speeches and president biden scurrying of political winds. plus >> -- >> trump lashes out of the search for mar-a-lago is questions remain about this empty folders and missing classified documents. then, there is this guy. >> the electric court of liberty still sparks in our hearts. >> and he expects to be the next house speake