can i have another kiss? han heyou know, try to pro her yway that we could. yoknow all, everybody. do it ch other. >> and ny've fused thattentioarah's baby. ughter j i being raistheir mo but like eveelse, it's real famil mom's house when jyn i there and, you know, hri sunday, policing in america. >> he didn't attack nobody. he didn't kill nobody. >> a young man with bipolar disorder wrongly believed to be committing a crime. apparently he is a schizophrenic. >> dies in police custody. >> please! >> in front of his mother. >> he told our mother that he loved her. >> anton black's story raises so many questions about policing in america. >> get on the [ bleep ] ground! >> how did a police officer who lost his job in one city get a

job in another? how could anton's death be ruled an accident? >> anton black was in a fight and lost, and that is a homicide. >> and are police unfairly attacked while doing a dangerous job? >> any indication of malice, i don't see any indication of indifference. >> no. >> this morning we will look at the pressure points of policing in america through the lens of one case. the death of anton black. >> my son was george floyd before george floyd. >> welcome to sunday and a special edition of "meet the press." >> announcer: from nbc news in washington, the longest running show in television history, this is a special edition of "meet the press" with chuck todd. good sunday morning. i hope you are enjoying your labor day weekend. this morning we are going to do something a little different, take a deep dive into the debate over policing in america. there are few cases of policing

more notorious or consequential than that of george floyd. floyd's death, which sparked a huge national debate about defunding police, it set off street demonstrations and made the phrase "black lives matter" a household term. it's another case that happened before george floyd in the small town of greensboro, maryland, with similarities and connections to the george floyd case that were actually going to examine in depth today. first reported by "dateline" by lester holt and supervisor producer dan, the death of anton black in police custody touches on so many fault lines we have been debating about, race, mental health, escalation versus de-escalation, police accountability and the role of the medical examiner just to name a few. in this morning's special edition of "meet the press" we

are going to review what happened to anton black, how he died, how the cause of death was determined, and perhaps most importantly how a police officer with a history of violence in another jurisdiction was even allowed to be on the job. and in each step of the way i will talk to experts on policing. a scholar on race, criminal justice, the president of a police defense fund and the director of the innocence project as well as a former medical examiner. but let's start by meeting anton black. a star athlete whose death has raised so many questions about policing in america. here is lester holt. >> how you doing? i'm anton black. i hope you like my introduction video. >> yeah, this is my baby boy. anton. >> anton was a standout athlete, voted his high school's homecoming king twice.

>> he was a star wide receiver on the football team. and mid-atlantic champion in the 100, 200, and the high jump. i used to love to see him run. oh, and jump. >> reporter: after graduating anton enrolled in college. but his sister latoya said his true passion was to build a career as a model. >> he had the looks. >> definitely gorgeous. >> reporter: but in that summer of 2018 anton's behavior changed. >> to me all of a sudden he got moody, he was crying, he was upset all the time. >> he went to a hospital? >> yeah. anton was diagnosed with bipolar disorder, a condition that often develops in the teenage years. anton lived in the small town of greensboro, maryland, a few miles from the border with delaware. it's an important point that will soon come into play.

greensboro is a racially mixed town of approximately 2,000 residents. one in seven of whom are african american. the town has four police officers in total. residents often describe greensboro as a real life mayberry. that changed in september 2018. a saturday evening when a married couple driving home from church saw something alarming. anton holding a 12-year-old boy in a head lock. when the woman asked the boy if he was all right, xavier said no. so she called 911. and greensboro officer thomas webster responded. what neither knew was that anton and xavier had known each other for years. >> all right. listen, you are not his brother? >> no. >> i am. >> he is not my brother, bro! >> stop. >> reporter: before webster turned on his extraordinary, xavier told him anton was schizophrenic which wasn't

accurate. he had been diagnosed with bipolar disorder. when webster went to handcuff anton he gave the officer an odd response. and began to run away. webster radioed the dispatcher. >> black male wearing all black just fled on foot. apparently he is a schizophrenic. >> reporter: three other men joined the pursuit. two off-duty officers from nearby jurisdictions who happened to be in the area along with a civilian on a motorcycle. anton ran to his home and locked himself in a car outside. officer webster arrived moments later and without saying a word he drew his baton and smashed the driver's side window. then he fired his taser. >> i'm tasing him, tasing him. >> reporter: but it didn't work. anton grappled with the man up a ramp towards his front door as

he cried out for his mother. >> he is schizophrenic. >> yeah, yeah, yeah. >> reporter: the officer then wrestled anton to the ground. with the help of a civilian who had a confederate flag on his motorcycle helmet. >> he's cuffed. >> everybody take a breather. >> reporter: anton's mother heard the commotion and stepped outside. webster began speaking with her. >> anton here tried to abduct a 12-year-old and fled from the police. >> reporter: anton, handcuffed and on his stomach, was kicking his legs, so webster decided to shackle him, too. anton continued to cry out. >> i love you! >> you will be better if you don't fight. >> reporter: officer webster told anton's mother he wasn't in any legal trouble. >> he needs help. >> yeah. okay. >> so he is not getting locked up?

>> reporter: anton went limp. >> anton, come on, buddy. >> reporter: that's when emts were called but they could not revive him. >> i saw, that's why i can't sleep to this day. i see him begging for his life. you know, he is calling, mommy. they never got off of him. opened up the door. how come they didn't let him up and i am standing there. >> we will pause the story here. i am joined by two men, paul butler teaches criminal law at georgetown university and author of "chokehold, policing black men." joining us is jason johnson, the president of the law enforcement legal defense fund which provides support to officers charged with crimes. gentlemen, welcome to "meet the press." >> great to be here. >> i want to try to unpack the incident itself and what the police could have done differently.

we put up the definition of de-escalation from the national consensus of policy and discussion paper from 2020 and the definition is this. an attempt to stabilize the situation and reduce the immediacy of the threat so that more time, options and resources can be called upon to resolve the situation without the use of force over the reduction in the force necessary. jason, let me start with you. what we saw with thomas webster, did he follow this definition? >> not in my opinion. no, he is not. i think it's important to remember de-escalation is just words on a page. unless we train our police officers how to de-escalate. it's not a skill we are born with. we have to be trained how to do it. as far as i know, the officer wasn't trained how to do it. did he employ those tactics? no. were they appropriate to the situation? i am not sure. but they certainly were not used. >> paul, it's without, i mean, my goodness, a good thing we have body camera footage so we are able to are some idea of

what the truth is. what are some ways -- you dealt with a lot of these cases. what are some ways that officer webster could have handled this differently. >> chuck, every year the police arrest about 10 million people, and not one of those 10 million people feels like getting arrested that day. so de-escalation is about common sense ways of reducing the trauma and stress of an encounter with the police so it doesn't end in a tragedy like what happened to anton black. in this situation keep in mind mr. black had not committed a crime. he is rough-housing with a friend. we know that. this is something that when people see african american young men playing around, they are more likely to think of it as a crime than if it's someone else. but what de-escalation in this context means is looking at the situation.

how do you talk to people? do you communicate with respect with your tone, with your voices? are you thinking in this warrior mentality? president obama's commission on policing said one of the concerns is that too many cops now have this us against them mentality. it's guardian, not warrior. >> jason, explain the decision by the officers to pursue him when he fled. >> the information that the officer receives is that we hear the 911 tape, it's that there is a younger boy who is in a headlock. the officer responds in good faith assuming that's true. he makes some observations that tend to confirm that. his interaction doesn't dispel that and anton black leaves. he gathers information to perhaps seem to think he is suffering from a mental health emergency. officer webster seems to understand that. so he has no idea where anton black is going, whether he could harm himself, harm other people. he has a duty to follow up in my opinion, and that's what he does. i heard what professor butler

said. i do believe that the officer was respectful in his initial encounter with anton black. i don't think he came across as authoritarian or mean at all. i thought he was respectful. and so i think the reason for following him is he has a duty to do that. >> you believe he should have followed him? that there was enough cause to follow him? >> he responded to a concern that this child was being hurt maybe and he learns that, no, they're friends. the kid is just playing around. at that point the criminal law enforcement interest was over. still the officer elects to seize mr. black, to try to put him in handcuffs. and what has anton said? he said, i love you, and he runs away. again, every officer does not have to make every arrest. in this case, there was nothing to arrest for. but too often these kinds of chases, even when they are about nothing, lead to tragedy.

>> let's talk about the next confrontation, jason, which was he goes, he sees that he is in the car, and the baton to the window. there doesn't seem to be any justification for that. i am curious what you would say or what his defense is? >> i would say that is the part of this incident that if you watch the videotape, that's the part that sort of hit me, is the most likely that, look, if people are going to have questions about this, why did he do that. my response is police officers are human beings. they are not perfect. in this case i don't believe officer webster had been trained in the de-escalation policies. i think what he was intending to do is reduce or eliminate the risk. first of all, he didn't know that is anton black as far as i know. he doesn't know that's his house he doesn't know that's his car, as far as i know. he wants to eliminate the risk. he doesn't know if he has a risk, if he wants to harm himself.

if his intention, is to see anton black, that seems to be his intention, and we could argue the propriety of that, if that is his intention, why note do it when you have the opportunity immediately? might not be talking about it at all if anton black is safely placed in handcuffs and taken to a hospital. you know, looking at this in a light most favorable to what the officer's intentions were, which i am sort of inclined to do that, i believe, was his intention. >> then there was also the tasing. the question is, looking at a layperson, what was the rush? why not let him sit in the car for half an hour and cool off? it seems like what was wrong with just sort of stepping back? >> that would have been the best police practice. it's true that police officers are human beings, but they are human beings who are licensed to kill. and in this context you have to wonder about how much of a difference anton black's mental

illness made. sometimes police officers buy into this stereotype that people who are mentally ill are more dangerous or more likely to commit violent crimes, and all of the data tells us that that is not true. >> let me -- when do you think it is -- do you understand when a police officer feels as if they are not sure going into his situation, they are not sure, might reach for a weapon and they have to always be prepared that the person they are trying to calm down might reach for a weapon, how should they be handling that situation? >> the legal standard is, if an officer reasonably believes that she is about to be killed or that the suspect is about to harm somebody else, then she can use deadly force. if that's not the situation and there is no reason that the officer in this case would have any practical reason to be concerned about mr. black, the officer isn't entitled.

a federal judge, in a civil settlement in this case, said that a reasonable jury could find that the cop used excessive force. >> is there any part of the tasing that is defensible in your view? >> i would say this is not a use of deadly force. using a taser is not deadly force. ideally, it stops there. again, in my earlier remarks, looking at it again, in a light most favorable to officer webster, i believe that's what he was trying to do is end it there and the taser was an extension of that. >> end what exactly? >> his design was to place anton black in custody and, again, we could debate whether that was proper or not, but that was his -- i would say it was. that was his objective to get anton black in custody using a -- if he uses the taser effectively and anton black is taken into custody safely, that changes the outcome. i go back to he used the taser as he was running away. not coming towards him.

should that have been a difference when you use the taser? >> the legal standard for using the taser is active resistance. if a person is actively resisting arrest -- >> that would have met the legal standard? >> i agree a jury could disagree with this. i understand it's not a well established -- but i think there is an argument to be made that there was a reasonable action by the police officer. >> professor, got to make this clear. the police can't shoot somebody or use nondeadly force because they are running away from a crime. it has to be proportionate to the threat. in this case there was no threat from mr. black. >> all right. i am going to pause here. you guys are coming back a little bit later in the program. so we will see you again and continue this discussion. when we come back we will tell you a little bit more about the police officer thomas webster. turns out he had a violent past. he was an officer in dover, delaware, where he was seen on police dashcam video kicking a young african american man in

the face, knocking him out and breaking his jaw. still got hired by greensboro. his story and the aftermath were well known to the town before they hired him. how did this happen? stay with us.

every search you make, every click you take, every move you make, every step you take, i'll be watching you. the internet doesn't have to be duckduckgo is a free all in one privacy app with a built in search engine, web browser, one click data clearing and more stop companies like google from watching you, by downloading the app today. duckduckgo: privacy, simplified.

welcome back. 19-year-old anton black died in front of his mother in a struggle with four men, including officer thomas webster and two other officers from nearby towns. so who is thomas webster? as we'll learn, webster had been a police officer in nearby dover, delaware, and was the key figure in a violent incident captured on police video eventually would cost him his job. how was he able to get hired in nearby greensboro, maryland. webster is an example of what some call the wandering cop syndrome, officers who simply move to another town after being let go for cause. what's more, the town of greensboro knew all about webster.

here's where lester holt picks up the story. >> we got another one around the store. the video, which is hard to watch, is from august 2013 when webster was an officer in dover, delaware. he and another officer responding to a call about a fight when they stopped one of the suspects, latif dickerson, and ordered him on his hands and knees. as dickerson began complying, webster kicked him in the face, knocking him out and breaking his jaw. but it took two years for that video to go public, only after webster was charged with second-degree assault. >> folks wanted answers. they wanted justice. >> reporter: lamar gunn, then president of the naacp of central delaware, led protests outside the courthouse. >> a packed courtroom in kent county today. >> reporter: at the trial,

webster testified he was afraid dickerson was reaching for a gun. he said he meant to kick dickerson in the upper body but missed and kicked him in the face. after three days of deliberations, webster was acquitted. >> it sends us years backwards. we are clearly not happy with this response. >> reporter: in an agreement with the city of dover, webster resigned and left with his pension. $230,000. >> i thought he was done. >> reporter: but two years later lamar heard disturbing news. webster had been hired as an officer at the greensboro, maryland, police department, just 25 miles away. >> i felt betrayed. i couldn't believe it. >> reporter: did you feel the need to warn the folks in greensboro? >> the moment i learned that webster was in the process of being hired in greensboro, i made a phone call. >> reporter: lamar says he spoke with the greensboro city manager.

>> i went step by step as to why you would have to hate the people you serve to unleash that type of monster on unsuspecting citizens. >> reporter: you called him a monster? >> yes. >> lamar gunn was not the only person who warned greensboro. he was chosen by greensboro's get tough police chief michael petyo. after webster was hired, members of greensboro's african american community protested and went to the town council pleading with them to reverse the decision to hire webster. but the council made up of five white men allowed webster to stay on the force as one of the town's four police officers. agreeing with petillo that he earned a second chance. joining me is rebecca brown from the innocence project. welcome to "meet the press." >> thanks. >> this is the wandering cop syndrome. when you get to the details of

this, this isn't a case when we talk about should we know who police officers are, how much of their record should we know, this is a case where if you just googled his name you learned everything you needed to know about what happened. so i look at this and wonder what reforms could have fixed this? >> i think several reforms could fix this. the first is making here police disciplinary records are made publicly available. in delaware there is a law enforcement bill of rights that is a statute that effectively says any internal investigation is secret from the public. this man had 32 excessive force complaints. that was kept from the public. now, of course, people did know about this other horrible incident, which did somewhat follow him and, obviously, the community was very concerned about that and brought that to the town council. but just foundationally, his record should have been publicly available because what

ultimately happened was that the chief kept that information from the certifying body in maryland. >> now, maryland now has a law and it's called anton's law that essentially gets rid of these law enforcement bill of rights. is that fair to say? >> right. so that was repealed in maryland. there are 20 states with law enforcement bills of rights. >> there are quite a few of them. that sounds terrific. who is against the law enforcement bill of rights when you look at this on here. but these have turned into almost super -- a steroid version of immunity, hasn't it? >> right, special protections for law enforcement facing allegations of misconduct. at the innocence project we wish some of these protections were available to our clients. i mean, some of our clients, because they are innocent, don't even seek counsel. everyone deserves counsel. police, civilians. that said, these special protections are beyond the pale.

people can, you know, for instance, law enforcement that are accused of these things can sometimes have cooling off periods, five days, ten days, before they are even interviewed or interrogated. in some instances they review body-worn camera before they are interrogated. >> let me talk about the body camera situation for a minute because we wouldn't be here without the body camera footage. we talk about the cellphone footage that has done this. but how difficult was this to police, to borrow a phrase, before we had this movement to get police officers to wear body cameras even in a small town like greensboro? >> body camera footage was central here. it's not a panacea. there are so many other aspects of the system that need to be reformed to really assure transparency and accountability of law enforcement. and that just wasn't the case here. we saw that there were hidden disciplinary records from

delaware. maryland, now, certifying body is not receive them. this could be fixed through laws like anton's law. anton's law didn't just repeal the law enforcement bill of rights. it made police disciplinary records publicly available. 75% of states restrict access to police disciplinary records. >> this just makes it, literally, as he drove 25 miles across state lines, he is a brand new person. >> right. >> in a brand new state. >> exactly. sometimes this is in an intrastate problem. ohio, which is where tamir rice was killed, the officer came from a department where the chief says this this man should not police because of how he trained in firearms training. >> would the simplest reform be a federal registry for cops, basically one person described it as a social security for cops? >> absolutely. they should have unique

identifiers. right now they do not. >> across the board, if you're in greensboro, maryland, or new york city? >> absolutely. to properly put information into the index you need to make sure that the records are publicly available. we saw in this instance 32 complaints people were unaware of. 22 of them with a taser. this would have been critical information. >> let's talk about standardized training. in this entire conversation i had previously with jason and paul, one of the things he may not have had the proper training. we do not have uniform training standards, particularly for small town cops. >> right. i think there are issues around training and also issues around who is best equipped to respond to these incidents. we understood years ago that he with needed specialized firefighters to deal with fires in this country. so to have emergency responders be responsible for every type of incident just makes no sense. >> what do you do when you are in a tiny town with limited

resources? it feels like it's easier to reform the nypd than greensboro, maryland. >> i thought it was fascinating on the "dateline" we watched the former chief say exactly what we have done, which is a different form of policing to begin with. arguably, big or small, you can have emergency responders who are best equipped to deal with mental crisis. >> we will discuss the guardian versus warrior mentality little bit later. thank you. when we come back, anton's father says anton was george floyd before george floyd. but the connection between anton black and george floyd doesn't simply end with two deaths in police custody. there is another connection to george floyd. it had huge consequences in this case and potentially huge consequences for others. that's next.

it's time for the biggest sale of the year, on the sleep number 360 smart bed. why choose proven quality sleep from sleep number? because proven quality sleep is vital to our health and wellness, only the sleep number 360 smart bed keeps you cool, then senses and effortlessly adjusts for your best sleep. and tells you exactly how well you slept, with your sleepiq score. our smart sleepers get 28 minutes more restful sleep per night. so, you can be your best for yourself and those you care about most. don't miss our labor day weekend special. save 50% on the sleep number 360 limited edition smart bed, and free home delivery on all smart beds. ends labor day.

every search you make, every click you take, every move you make, every step you take, i'll be watching you. the internet doesn't have to be duckduckgo is a free all in one privacy app with a built in search engine, web browser, one click data clearing and more stop companies like google from watching you, by downloading the app today. duckduckgo: privacy, simplified. welcome back. so how did anton black die? you saw it, but it's a question anton's family had been demanding to know for months. "dateline" found out about anton black while reporting on a far more famous case, that of george floyd.

during the reporting on this story, "dateline" learned there was a key player who played an outsized role in both cases. here again is lester holt. >> reporter: four months after anton black's death on his own front doorstep the autopsy report came out. the manner of death, accident. >> it's an accident. you are begging for your life and they don't get off of him. how is that an accident? >> reporter: the report was cosigned by maryland's then-chief medical examiner dr. david fowler. you will want to remember his name. it said that while it was likely that the stress of the struggle contributed to his death, no evidence was found that restraint by law enforcement directly caused or significantly contributed to it. the cause of death it stated was a heart defect and a significant contributing condition was bipolar disorder. the day after the autopsy report was released the county prosecutor announced no charges

would be filed. >> he took somebody's life and don't even get charged? >> it's like they were exonerated as soon as anton's autopsy report was signed. >> reporter: the role of the medical examiner was yet another issue captured in the harsh light of anton black's death. >> our role in legal cases plays a huge part. >> reporter: dr. roger mitchell is a former chief medical examiner for washington, d.c. today he is head of pathology for howard university and an expert in investigating deaths like anton's that occur in police custody. >> he was breathing, running, talking before the fight and he is no longer breathing, talking, running and he dies. >> reporter: from what you learned from the anton black case, what is the proper manner of death? >> homicide. he was in a fight and lost. and that is a homicide. >> reporter: which is not the same as a murder, and it doesn't mean webster or anyone else

committed a crime. whether they did anything wrong, that's a legal matter? >> that is correct. >> reporter: here is where anton black's case intersects with george floyd's. when former minneapolis police officer derek chauvin went on trial for murder his defense called an expert witness. >> i was watching it live from my office. >> reporter: chauvin's expert was none other than dr. david fowler. the same medical examiner who cosigned anton black's autopsy report. >> potentially carbon monoxide poisoning. >> reporter: he told the jury that despite chauvin's knee on floyd's neck, in his expert opinion the manner of death was undetermined. joining me to talk about the role of the medical examiners in determining police accountability is the man you saw in that clip, dr. roger mitchell. doctor, welcome to "meet the press." >> good morning. >> the viewers have seen the

death of anton black. i will give you three basic choices here. accident, homicide, murder. this medical examiner chose accident. how did he come up with accident? >> i am not quite sure how they came up with accident. i think that there is a philosophy and culture if there is an altercation with law enforcement that often if law enforcement didn't mean to kill someone, then it's an accident. but i suggest that it's a homicide, that whether they intended to kill him or not, the actions of another human, whether they are law enforcement or not, those actions that lead to a death are homicide. >> that's the technical definition of homicide? a death by the hands of another. we don't get into intent. >> that's right. to answer your question about murder, murder is a legal construct, and that can be determined by your prosecutor, your jury. >> if you were the medical examiner you would have labeled this homicide? >> simply. >> and so what does that --

because i think this is what the people don't understand. if you label it accident, the investigation ends? what happens? >> well, some will tell you that the investigation doesn't have to end, right? it will say, well, you know, prosecutors can take accidents, they do it with motor vehicle collisions all the time and they prosecute motor vehicle homicides. but in reality, when the medical examiner calls something accidents or undetermined, a lot of the times the prosecution will not move forward. the investigation will not move forward. >> the minute you put in homicide, then it just creates urgency, pressure, or is there actually more mandated investigating that has to be done? >> that's on law enforcement, right. as the objective forensic pathologist, my job is not to calculate what the effects of my cause and manner are going to be, but merely to call the truth on my cause and manner. and ensure that the cause and manner is reliable and reproduceable.

like any other diagnosis in medicine. >> there is a lot of subjectivity in this. in this report the medical examiner here, dr. fowler, seemed to indicate bipolar disorder was a cause. how did he come up with that? >> it's interesting because david fowler cosigned this report. it's not just one medical examiner on this report. there is a more junior medical examiner and then there is dr. fowler. bipolar is a contributing cause, again trying to give circumstances of why the altercation needed to occur could be my only assumption. >> well, they think maybe a heart condition developed. couldn't you have just said that the tasing, simply tasing him could have triggered this? the point is, it's as possible of a contributing factor as bipolar disorder? >> the cause of death, interesting that you bring that up, chuck, is the reality of it is, is that that cause of death

is a natural cause of death. it's a natural cause of death if you just read the cause of death, yet the manner of death is an accident. so there is some force that is acting on that natural death. in this case, it's the altercation, and that's why it's a homicide. >> let talk about a bigger picture, which is we don't know the true number of people that die in custody in america, whether you die in custody during an arrest, die in custody perhaps while you are in jail or in prison, die in custody perhaps in a health care facility. it is not on any form, is it? >> no. and the reality of it is, is that in order for us to understand the whole burden of this injury or disease in this country we need to know how many people are dying. there is a deaths in custody reporting act in law that is not being fully complied with across this country. >> we don't have a mandatory death certificates to check that box?

>> no, we don't each have it on the death certificates. i have been talked for a check box merely to say yes or no whether or not a death is in custody because, yes, anton black is terrible and so is george floyd, but there are hundreds of people that are dying from natural disease that they didn't need to die from while incarcerated. >> we may find out, how about a little better health care or something like that? a pharmaceutical help here, something like that, correct? this is the type of things we can discover? >> absolutely. and an objective public health measure. the reason we know about maternal mortality and why women die in childbirth is because there is a check box on the u.s. standard death certificate. why smoking is contributing to cancers is because there is a check box on the death certificate. motor vehicle collisions, a check box on the death certificate.

>> and not in custody. you created this box in d.c.? >> that's correct. >> it took a year, you got everybody -- did you get push back from law enforcement? >> you know, it's interesting. i work well with law enforcement. been a medical examiner over 15 years, and once we articulate and started educating people about how having this data readily available can help us prevent deaths, people are pretty much onboard. it took me a year. we got it done locally. we need it done nationally. >> and we don't have time to get into the whole conversation how we can elect these people, elect folks rather than make sure they have the expert background before they become coroners or medical examiner. >> we are here to improve a system. >> that would be a way, too. dr. mitchell, appreciate it. we will talk to you again soon. when we come back, when we have learned about officer webster, the man who hired him, the police chief, who knew even more about webster's past and hid it from view. your projects done right

. with angi, you can connect with and see ratings and reviews. and when you book and pay throug you're covered by our happiness check out angi.com today. angi... and done.

welcome back. it turns out there was more to officer thomas webster's past than the videotape kicking incident we showed you earlier. during ten years as a cop in delaware he had 32 use of force incidents on his record, 26 were against african americans. but michael petyo, the new police chief, who chose webster withheld that information. petyo ultimately pleaded guilty

to a charge of misconduct. he receives three years of probation. 11 months after anton's death, officer thomas webster was decertified as a police officer and fired in greensboro, maryland. last month three days after "dateline" broadcast anton black's family settled a law enforcement against the police officers involved and the towns involved for a total of $5 million. the settlement includes a new use of force policy that restricts restraining a suspect in a prone position and it also calls for training in de-escalation and dealing with mental health issues. when we come back, i'm going to bring together all of our guests for an in-depth discussion on how we can reform policing in america.

welcome back. we're bringing together all of our guests from the broadcast for a comprehensive discussion on what anton black's case tells us about policing in america, how we can learn from it and

perhaps get police reform on the national agenda. joining me again are rebecca brown of the innocence project, professor paul butler of georgetown university, jason johnson, legal defense fund and former d.c. medical examiner dr. roger mitchell. welcome back to all of you. paul, let me start with four pillars here. one thing you brought up early, and it was something i was going to bring up had you not brought it up, because it was almost like the first sentence of the obama administration's task force on 21st century policing in may of 2015. law enforcement culture should embrace a guardian rather than warrior mindset to build trust and legitimacy within agencies and within the public. the idea is warriors are soldiers. they fight wars. the guardians are members of the community. they protect you. >> and if you think about somebody who is applying for a job to be a guardian, they have a whole different skill set than people who want to be warriors.

guardians want to take care of communities. they want to talk to people and work with them. from today's conversation it can sound like we're talking about a bad apple cop, but i think that that's only one of the problems. most cops serve with integrity. but u.s. cops still kill 1,000 people a year. that hasn't changed since george floyd. and so when we're talking about reform, we have to think about transformation and change, including workplace culture getting away from that warrior mentality. >> the type of folks you recruit. there is this feeling in 20 years of militarizing our local law enforcement? >> we need just not guardians. one person to fill both roles. depending on the circumstances. almost impossible to find. if we have officers responding to an active shooter or act of violence that requires officers to bravely enter and take appropriate action, that

requires both roles. i'll say a lot of this conversation about police reform is driving people out of the profession. it's not because we are looking at reform, but it's the idea that the tenor of the conversation, the fact that it's controversial, divisive, running people out of the profession, and the line of people that want to come in is very short. so i think we have to be mindful of the fact that the conversation we are having about police reform or improvement is going to inform a young person who may be interested in serving in a guardian role in law enforcement, if they feel that they are entering something that's divisive, made up of people that are racist thugs, they are not going to do it. >> or a job where you have to follow your rules, if you are licensed to kill and have to be careful about how to use that power. if you have concerns about that, you should not be a police officer. >> i certainly didn't say that. i think that police officers should be -- should follow the rules. i don't think that's an issue. i don't think that's pushing people out of the profession, by the way. i think that the fact that

police officers today are presumed guilty, presumed bad if there is a viral video of any sort of controversial police action, that it seems like it's the police officer that is presumed to have done something wrong. that pushes people out. public policy that follows it, that pushes people out. following the rules and being subject to training is not the issue. >> go ahead. >> i think it's largely, you talked about culture. the culture within the law enforcement agencies, culture within those local law enforcement agencies, yes, we can take our cues from some of these outliers as what we're talking about, but also some of the sustained racism we may see in law enforcement. but if we are willing to change the culture and really work towards changing the culture of policing, towards this guardian mindset and reward community that lives in community, that loves community, that operates in community and have those same people want to be the law enforcement in community versus

people coming from outside communities, policing those communities, that mindset of guardian is easier than you would think. >> i'll be honest. rebecca, i'm hearing echos of like we have this debate about we want a different skill set in our teachers and all of this stuff and when you think about both teachers and cops we are asking them to do a whole lot of things now. and, by the way, we don't give them a raise and we don't pay them. we want them to have all these skills but they don't feel like they are rewarded to have those skills. is that a problem? >> expecting police to be emergency responders to every kind of event. there is certain better equipped people to deal with people in mental health crises. and so i think, you know, and by the way, this would be an excellent issue for unions to take up in terms of protecting their work force. they don't -- you know, instead of sort of fighting accountability measures and transparency measures, i think

unions would do well to look at what is being asked of law enforcement, and thinking about does this even make sense. are there better responders for some of these types of events. >> there is, for me, no doubt that there is -- that we are putting too much on law enforcement. i believe in an all government approach and to let the public health institutions in government, to let the department of behavioral health off the hook for their responsibilities to community. i think it's poor government. >> i don't want to get into the named stuff because then everybody has a politicized debate, but this is about public safety at the end of the day. sometimes public safety is a health crisis. >> absolutely. and as everyone around the table i think agrees, police officers have become public safety generalists. no matter what it is, we expect law enforcement to respond to it and that's not what they are fit for. >> should it be? i mean, are we -- should we rethink this? >> you never going to get police

entirely out of the mental health business because of the nature of what police do. they can be second responder. the front line are mental health professionals and police are there to protect the public in that narrowly defined role. >> 90% of 911 calls are about people in a relationship crisis, mental health crisis, a beef between family members or neighbors, someone who is experiencing homelessness. when people with guns and batons and the power to arrest show up, often that makes things worse, not better. even republican administrations, president trump, he agreed that there are to be call responders, not just the folks with guns to those types of situations. >> let's talk about some simple police reform, has died a couple of times in congress. it seems like simple things that shouldn't be hard to do. your check box. why does -- why should politically -- why has it been

difficult? >> i think it's really not holding our public health infrastructure responsible for the public safety of our citizenry. to suggest that there is some disconnect between public health and public safety, you know, i'm a medical examiner, a physician, but i also served as interim deputy mayor for public safety and justice for washington, d.c., because there is a need to connect the dots. this check box on the u.s. standard death certificate allows for a death certificate that has to occur in all deaths in custody. it's going to occur. for us to merely know that that individual died in custody, we can start understanding from a very basic level who, how, and why people are dying in custody. >> if the question is why we haven't seen national change, it's a two-word answer. the republicans. it's senator scott, a republican, and senator booker, a democrat, who are supposed to work something out about the

george floyd justice in policing act justice in policing act, common sense reform. failed not because of politics or the democrats. it failed because republicans did not have the courage and will to do life-saving work that would make police officers pond more effectively, help community safety. >> i just don't think -- the problem with the police reform debate is that we don't agree on what the problem is. we don't agree on what the problem is. i think a lot of people are resistant to facts when we put data about how many millions of calls police respond to, how small the number of times that police officers use deadly force, but that's among a sea of police responses and it doesn't take any account for what the circumstances were. it's just a number. if we can't agree on that, we can't move forward. >> we spent an hour on it. we got a lot more debate to do. i have run out of time. so thank you. that's all we have for today. a shout-out to "dateline,"

lester holt for reporting this story for a very long time. thank you all for watching. enjoy the rest of your labor day weekend. we will be back next week because, if it's sunday, it's "meet the press." good evening. and welcome to "politics nation," tonight's lead, nine weeks to go. right now, on this labor day weekend, we should all make sure our seatbacks are in their full upright position. and our seatbelts are securely fashioned. as the captain has indicated, with big red flashing lights, that we are starting our descent