♪♪ hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. an eye-popping piece of brand-new reporting from "the washington post" drives home the fact that the criminal probe into donald trump's handling of presidential records is not at all an issue of returning overdue library books as trump's lawyers have asserted. it's about a twice-impeached ex-president hoarding and holding on to some of the most critical, most sensitive intelligence that the united states has at its disposal. from that new washington post reporting, quote, a document describing a foreign government's military defenses including its nuclear capabilities was found by fbi agents who searched former president's mar-a-lago residence and private club last month. that is according to people familiar with the matter, underscoring concerns among u.s. intelligence officials about classified material stashed in

the florida property. for context, here's what the post says about what the documents found are typically handled. >> some of the seized documents u.s. operations so closely guarded that many senior national security officials are kept in the dark about them. only the president, some members of his cabinet or near-cabinet level officials to know details of these special access programs and details of such classified operations require special clearances on a need to know basis and not just top secret clearance. records that deal with such programs are kept under lock and key almost always in a secret, compartmentalized facility with a designated control officer on keep careful tabs on their location, but despite the fact that these documents are normally, typically out of reach, totally inaccessible to all, but a teeny, tiny handful of top government officials and

kept in the most highly secure facilities that the u.s. government has ever created, these documents were sitting around at donald trump's pay for membership golf club for more than 18 months. as "the washington post" points out, the fbi has 184 in the set of 15 boxes sent to the national archives and records administration in january. 38 more handed over by a trump lawyer to investigators in june and more than 100 additional documents unearth in the a court-approved search on august 8th and it was in this last batch of government secrets about the nuclear defense readiness was found. brand-new reporting is where we report today, yamiche alcindor is here and moderator of washington week on pbs and

andrew weissmann, former doj prosecutor ask senior member of robert mueller's special counsel investigation and neal katyal is back, act of former acting solicitor general and now professor. i want to start with you, yamiche, because you from the north drive of the white house covered for years of what was excruciating for most national security professionals and that was donald trump's not just disregard for the intelligence community products and something confirmeded on this program. he never appreciated what went into everything briefed to him and his carelessness and his recklessness and boastfulness with people like sergey lavrov which he shared very, very sensitive classified information about sources and methods as well as his skepticism of deep intelience services and i wonder that among the documents he

took, hoarded and lied about returning was another government's nuclear secrets. well, this underscores if this reporting is accurate and i imagine friends at the washington post are credible and this underscores former president trump not really taking as seriously as most of his critics should take seriously national security secrets and it underscores why the department of justice took the unprecedented step to get a search warrant into go into mar-a-lago and knowing that this was going to be a big deal and searching a former president's home was going to have i'm sure a crush ever media attention which, of course, is what it's getting and it really shows us as a nation what exactly the -- the doj and fbi officials were just so worried about. it also i think, underscores the reporting of last week who people who, and officials and agents who were reviewing this information that they had to get their clearances escalated in some cases and had to get new

clearances in order to look at this information and it underscores what former president trump and his sort of view of the office of the president being personally, and we think about bill barr saying it's unprecedented for a president to come and take national security documents back to a country club. those were bill barr's words as former attorney general. i will also say as someone who has been out on the campaign trail talking to voters recently, i think this is something that i think people across the country are paying attention to. this idea that former president trump was not diligent in safeguarding the secrets of this country and it shows the recklessness on the part of him and if you're a critic of former president trump on the campaign trail and this shows you even more who is in office in 2024. if you're a republican in this country there's still a faction of loyal trump supporters who see this as the fbi overreaching and when you read this article

you understand how important it was to the doj. >> andrew weissmann, i also think that there are some patterns now that i think we can take into the full picture that when it comes to donald trump, the fbi does not overreach. they do what they have to do to try to ensure that the rule of law and the united states of america is preserved. and as we gain more visibility, perhaps, this may be overstating it, but as we learn more about what was there, i think the flashing yellow is really, i think, questions about how we let those secrets stay in such insecure location. there are stories that seem to come out all of the time about how easy it is to penetrate whatever security exists and the secret service is not there to protect classified documents. they're there to protect the life of the president and his family. talk about -- you know, this picture that's settling in of just how vulnerable state

secrets have been at mar-a-lago. >> sure. let me put on my former fbi general counsel hat. let's assume the best case scenario for the former president which is that no foreign adversary has managed to obtain the documents or the information in the documents. those are two very separate things, but let's assume that you can be sure that admiral haynes, the head of the intelligence community is looking at that issue and let a assume that that is not the case. we are still being actually harmed right now. nicole, as you know, the saying is that politics ends at the water's edge. that has not been true for the trump administration. i personally saw this in the special counsel's office and can attest to the incredibly close

relationship that we have with numerous countries. some that you are not -- it's not known how close our ties are. the damage that is done from foreign adversaries and allies have seen how this kind of information is handled and is current. there is no question that countries like britain, australia, new zealand, canada, as well as other countries, france, italy, israel are all going to -- that's just naming a few, are all going to be looking at the issue of how can you share information and partner with the united states when it is one administration to another. it is no longer the case that there will be continuity in terms of how we deal with them. that was not true when we were dealing with administrations

like the obama administration, the bush administration, the clinton administration where there was that continuity and trust that the intelligence community would have one message and it would be acting the same way. this has real damage in terms of what the former president is doing and that's assuming the best case in terms of what he has done here. >> let me just stay with you and drill down deeper. so we don't know what government's nuclear secrets were found amid the mar-a-lago classified and -- and top secret intelligence that was seized from mar-a-lago, but we do know that everyone, our allies and adversaries read the story today, as well. what sort of damage control with your sort of informed guess, and

with the countries you nim with whom you have sharing relationships and countries what you share and what we know is more opaque. there is a limited amount that could be done. this is totally hypothetical, but let's assume at that time documents that we're talking about are nuclear capabilities of iran. it's just a type, and based in part based on intelligence from an ally, england, israel. what is the message if we are now trying to get additional information on a whole host of things that are important to the national security of our country? >> getting countries to involves trufrt and it involves

continuity. it is not a rational behavior that we're seeing from a former president. in terms of the florida case, the decision by judge canon where she says she's trying not interfere with the ord or of investigation and in fact, it makes it extremely hard for department justis, is of an example, but i can't stress enough that there is actual damage to our national security status and ability to protect the country based on what the reporting that we've seen in "the washington post." >> neil, i want to bring you in on something that i think that

for reasons that are not totally clear to me, but bill barr has taken it upon himself to attest to the strength of the federal government's case against donald j. trump. i'll show it to everyone in a minute because it's news that pill barr's read, who didn't warrant to put his big thumbs on the scales of justice for donald trump and perhaps everybody else thinks the government is or should be close to indicting him and i'll put a pin in that, i'll get to that in a minute. is that a frame from reverence that someone would poset, and that we should stipulate that he's important to this conversation because it has anything to do on the for situations and on donald trump's mishandling of documents has nothing to do with any of us or who anyone votes for. this is what former defense

secretary william cohen about the standard that he would have been held to if he had done anything like what donald trump had done. >> i think you're asking the question why. i don't think it matters why. the fact that he has those documents in his possession is offense enough. subject to perhaps criminal prosecution. if i'd had those in my house after leaving office i would be in handcuffs at this time. so the justice department has gone out of its way to show deference to the former president that no other president in the history have behaved in had fashion or have behaved in this personally, and i think that time has come to an end. >> this was not in public view, the all of this deference and

all of this patience has been shown to the ex-president and here we are that another country's nuclear secrets were among the documents hoarded and seized. >> yeah, nicole. secretary cohen's exactly right. i handled some of these documents and they're under such lock and key and control, and you handcuffs and the next stand. when you've lost bill barr that's really telling and i think it's because this extraordinary ruling of the judge. andrew referred to trump's action as erratic and irrational, and i think that aptly describes what this judge did here. she stopped the investigation because they were a handful of documents that were privileged and that's a bazooka when one needs a scalpel and before the article post information on the

nuclear information and not just underscore as sandra was a saying a moment ago just how insane this that, when i was -- only a handful stop the investigation and stefan from saturday night live. mar-a-lago has everything. it's got everything, palatial pools and nuclear secrets. it's the kind of full-service country club that every foreign spy dreams about, and the one thing i would disagree a little bit with secretary cohen when he said the why doesn't matter. i do think the why actually matters a bit because this is donald trump not just stealing these documents, not just putting them in his home in mar-a-lago, but also refusing to turn them over in response to a subpoena and from the day this investigation began in public

view we've all been asking, andrew said it on your show, and i've said it on your show, what in the world donald trump, are you doing with these documents in the first place? that's the question that i think still has to be answered. >> and i think that's right even -- i think the secretary -- frankly bill barr has made the same point, in terms of the criminal case against him, it's the refusal to respond due to the grand jury subpoena and the things that need to be meant in terms of a decision to indict. let me show you i think bill barr's third most extraordinary comment. he's rebuked, by the way, ms. review is very much in line with andrew's and in seeking a special master he called that a red herring and he rebuked the opinion. here he is talking about the strength of the government's

case. >> as i've said all along there are two questions. will the government be able to make out a technical case? will they have evidence that they could indict somebody on including him? that's the first question, and i think they're getting very close to that point, frankly, but at the end of the day, do you indict a former president? what will that do to the country? what kind of precedent will that set? will the people really understand that this is not failing to return a library book. that this was serious? so you have to worry about those things and i hope that those kinds of factors will incline the administration not to indict him. i don't want to see him indicted as a former president, but there will be a lot of pressure to indict him. look, if anyone would have gotten indicted, why not indict him? >> so what he basically asserts

is if anyone else would have done it, they would have been indicted. >> he just wants to protect his guy and he'll offer some criticisms, but at the end, those criticisms, just think about what he's saying. he's saying the president betrayed our national security by taking secrets home after he was president, not returning them, but hey, that's cool. he's a former president so he gets to do it and it's only the secretary cohens and mes of the world who if we did it get thrown in jail. i can't think of anything more corrosive to the rule of law. the whole country is built on the idea that no person is baf the law. bill barr who wrote a memo saying president, you can't be indicted while you're in offers for all of the crimes donald trump committed then, now evidently, you get some sort of lifetime pass from some of the gravest crimes in the federal probe like the espionage act simply because you were a former president. give me a break, former presidents have all sort of opportunities for mischief and

everyone's throwing them deals every which way. the barr principle here is a recipe for absolute disaster and turning our country into russia or something like that. >> yamiche, it's worth stepping back and reminding ourselves that donald trump is under scrutiny by doj, if not personally, his behavior is under scrutiny by doj which reportedly after seeing cassidy hutchinson testify publicly in the january 6th hearings was particularly understanding the facts around his conduct. what's apparent is that the rule of law is catching up with donald trump and of course, you listen to the bill barr speak and of course, it wasn't going to happen while he was our country's doj, but when you look at what merrick garland is facing now, it is frankly years of donald trump's corruption and criminal conduct now, at least coming under scrutiny.

how does that shift the analysis on the right and it seems as though there won't be scrutiny, and transparency and his conduct will not be revealed. >> nicole, it's such an interesting question and such a smart question, because on the one hand, you have republicans who have been watching former president trump sort of deal with all sort of scandal and corruption allegations and all sorts of legal issues and challenges and somehow can get away with it all and that's in some ways endeared them to him because he cannot be taken down and he's sort of teflon don and then you have the republicans who quietly and on background have been waiting to see what is the scandal or accusation that will finally rid the republican party of former president trump and those people, i think, are getting quieter and quieter. so even though you see a vocal number of republicans defending former president trump and you see frankly a lot of the

supporters continuing to support him there is a sense that when i talk to people that it could become more serious as the days go on any bill barr, it is interesting for him to say is the public going to understand what is going on here. this is not taking a library card home and that's bill barr's own words and oh, this is not just a piece of paper. these are government secrets and according to "the washington post" nuclear documents and i think the longer this goes on you have the public really understanding why the doj felt the need to go in and get this stuff. i think in the beginning of this in talking to voters and in talking to republicans, is this a sense that the doj wants to go to war with, is this going to be the thing that the doj wanted to go into mar-a-lago for, but when you realize what these documents met and the level of secrecy and the seriousness and the connection to national security is becoming clearer and clearer both to people on the right and to democrats, as well, that this

is something that could possibly be the sort of legal jeopardy that former president trump might not be able to weasel out of. >> andrew, i want to give you the last word on this part of the conversation, and again, the irony is that bill barr asking a question on fox news about whether the public will understand and accept that it was more than keeping an overdue library book and this is a hell of a lot more serious than a library book looking straight in the camera that people will die. this is about putting down all of the bs, bill barr calls it bullshit and it is. and that's what got us here. whether the ex-president can be prosecuted depends on what bill barr says on fox news, doesn't it? >> as unpalatable as it is for

me to be agreeing with bill barr and his rehabilitation tour, it is the case that his voice is important here to reach to those people who would otherwise not be listening to msnbc and the new york times and "the washington post" which it's a different community. at the end of the day, though, i'm reminded of my silly analogy. when bob mueller went to san francisco to be the u.s. attorney, the defense there publicly was saying outrageous things about how it's going to be over the top and how he'll prosecute all sort of people and privately was saying thank god he was there because he'll actually do some work and bring some criminal cases. and i think here -- i think you're going to hear republicans have to mouth off and spout things, but you know, if this is

the time when the chickens finally come home to roost and donald trump is held to account for, you know, a long history of either criminal or near-criminal conduct, you know, i'm not so sure there aren't a whole bunch of republicans who aren't going to be privately saying he got what he deserves and there will be a portion of the country and maybe unfortunately, a large portion, who will believe that he's being persecuted when, in fact, so far he has been privileged beyond anything that would happen to anyone else in the same situation. >> to anyone else. it is really such a remarkable stark contrast. andrew weissmann, thank you very much for starting us off. yamiche and neal, stick around. don't hold your breath for another trump pardon. steve bannon is expected to face a new indictment and details on the new legal troubles he's

facing and if he will seem to surrender to prosecutors by tomorrow. we'll bring you the latest reporting on that story, plus, the obamas were back in the white house for a tradition that skipped a cycle. it's a tradition taking on powerful, new, important themes this year. they were underscored by former first lady michelle obama. we'll show you what she had to say about that coming up, later in the show, and our ongoing series ahead of the mid-terms. we'll head out to arizona where the entire slate of, gob candidates are election deniers and don't go anywhere today. and don'got anywhere today.

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we are learning today that one of the disgraced twice-impeached ex-president's dead enders, one of his most loyal and ardent supporters could soon be indicted on charges in new york that many legal experts believe will be similar to those by which he was pardoned by then president trump. bannon was indicted by federal prosecutors who allege that he and three others defrauded donors and pocketed money from the we build the wall fund-raising campaign, one that promised to build a wall on the u.s.-mexico border. steve bannon was pardoned and presidential pardons only apply to federal charges meaning that new york state can still go ahead with the indictment and there's nothing trump can do. in a statement to nbc news, bannon said that the charges are phony, partisan. we are back with yamiche and

neal. i guess the problem, there are so many problems, yamiche. one, mexico was never going to build the wall and neither was trump's federal government and the story is so sick and steve bannon took money from trump supporters and his president was going to build and then bannon took their money and that's how we got here. but two, bannon knew he was guilty which is why he sought the last pardon and it makes me examine the pro-insurrection comment so differently. >> it makes me think of what president biden said in the speech last week which is part of the republicans are embracing election lies is because of greed. this idea that there's a lot of money to be made off of these election lies and the peril that our democracy might be in and there's this idea that there is a corruption and a moneymaking factory behind some of this, and

being able to raise money by lying about the election, and that being said it will be interesting to see how the prosecution unfolds and it is interesting to see how steve bannon talks about this. he's, of course, going to say that he's a martyr and this is an example of him being targeted because he's loyal to donald trump and this is showing that there are legal challenges that are getting increasingly more serious for donald trump and people around him, i.e., steve bannon in this case. >> you know, i've never seen a picture of steve bannon without msnbc on in the background so hi, steve, if you're watching, but let me just remind people of how strong the case was against him for which he pursued the pardon and this is nbc. according to the federal indictment which was unsealed in august, bannon, andrew battalato and timothy shea orchestrated to

defund thousands of donors. we build the wall raised 25 million, he falsely assured the public that he would not take a penny in salary. bannon said we're a volunteer organization and they took thousands of donated dollars and used them for personal expenses. those other guys were not pardoned, neal, and the criminal conduct was never really in question, was there no defense just the pursuit of a pardon. what do you think happens to steve bannon? >> yeah. i mean, it's totally trumpy. pardon your friends bannon and the other guy is left hanging out to dry with federal crimes, but look, hat's off to all of the legal pundits for the last four years that people can be prosecuted for state crimes and steve bannon is finding the hard

way today, and we're not sure what the indictment says and the report says it is related to the claims about the build the wall and one of the allegations in the federal indictment is that bannon said he wasn't going to take a salary and wound up taking a million. dollars. it's hard to know how serious the indictment was for bannon because we don't have the actual language of it, but any indictment is scary particularly when you don't have your guy in the white house to pardon you. for once, bannon may face the consequences of his actions and donald trump retains not only executive privilege, but also the pardon power, miraculously or something and even that wouldn't help because he has state charges and not federal. bottom line is that bannon is facing serious, state criminal charges and the case against him was incredibly strong at the

federal level. he was convicted as were his colleagues. he got pardoned under that and now, you know, the same types of crimes can be charged at the state level and it looks to me like bannon is facing a serious jail sentence. >> i don't actually know anything about steve bannon personally, but it seems that in service to donald trump he committed or is accused of committing a lot of crimes in congress that was in defying the subpoena from the january 6th committee. i believe he had sort of defense counsel for the duration of the trump presidency. he's now facing state charges. what happens to someone like steve bannon when the rule of law catches up with him, if he is charged and prosecuted and faces jail time. do they become ever more cooperative around the other investigations for the person, their former political patron?

>> first of all, nicole, you're right. it's a long list of the crimes that bannon has been charged with, and now i guess we can add career criminal to his esteemed list along with con artists and failed political strategists and when indictments like this repeated indictments and repeated convictions happen, yeah, i guess you can feel a little bit, like, immune from everything when your guy has pardoned you and he's cagey. he might just decide, and that's his only card left to play, it seems to me. the problem is these are state charges and there is of course, a state investigation going on of donald trump and right now the ball game is against trump, a lot of the gravity is at the federal level both with the january 6th investigation and

with the investigation into mar-a-lago. it's not impossible for state prosecutors to take into account, you know, someone's cooperation in a different federal investigation, but that adds a level of complexity. >> neal katyal, thank you so much for spending some time with us. >> yamiche sticks around. up next for us, a domestic terrorist group with politicians listed as one-time members and the group has come out from behind the shadows and we are learning more about how many right-wing extremists are living among all of us. that story's next. us. that story's next. oh, i can tell business is going through the “woof”. but seriously we need a reliable way to help keep everyone connected from wherever we go. well at at&t we'll help you find the right wireless plan for you. so, you can stay connected to all your drivers and stores on america's most reliable 5g network. that sounds just paw-fect. terrier-iffic i labra-dore you round of a-paws at&t 5g is fast,

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there is an incredible, eye-opening and alarming new piece of reporting out about the apparent extent of mainstream extremism in our country today, and the range of public servants that it seems to appeal to. the anti-defamation league centered on extremism says it looked through 38,000 names on leaked oath keepers membership list and the far-right group whose founder is right now at this hour awaiting trial this month on seditious conspiracy charges for his role in the january 6th capitol insurrection. the adl says those names include 81 people who were serving and or running for public offers as of early august. 373 people believed to currently be serving in law enforcement agencies across our country and

117 people currently serving in the u.s. military is important to note as the adl explains, quote, an individual's inclusion in the oath keeper database is not proof that they were or are still an oath keeper, end quote. the associated press talked to some people on the list who say they were briefly members of the oath keepers years ago and are no longer affiliated with the group. some people say they were never dues-paying members. that's a relief. let's bring in miles taylor, the co-founder of political party forward and yamiche alcindor is still with us. let me just for the appropriate context of this story coming outside for this moment in our political life, stewart rhodes, the had of the oath keepers faces these charges, seditious conspiracy, obstruction of an official proceeding and con spir so to prevent an officer from

disrj chaing duties and tampering with documents and proceedings. so i wonder, i guess, miles, if the list will get smaller, if the list will get longer, if the oath keepers are viewing stewart rhodes' potential trial as a recruiting trul or if it's repelling people. what is your theory? >> yeah. i really hate to say it, but i think the trend lines here are only towards organizations like this growing, nicole. i think the takeaway that we see here is that domestic terrorism is going viral in this country and that's really the big worry, and i want to put this into a little bit of context in terms of what it says about the potential for civil disorder or sort of modern civil war in this country. i think people watching have read barbara walters' terrific quote, not the newscaster, the researcher about the start.

it was one of the first things that i thought of. there are a couple of indicators, one is that as the democrat see goes down and that's been ng here in the united states and another factor is the explosion of identity politics which we've seen extremist identity politics like white supremacy and another piece that's telling is when you see the emergence of armed militia groups and the oath keepers are one of those armed militia groups and the next step that's even more worrying to me is when you see people in trufrted institutions like law enforcement and the military join and affiliate with those types of violent and extremist groups and that is what we are seeing and when you poll american people about the institutions they trust, they often talk about the military. they often talk about law enforcement and when you see people in those institutions compromised and potentially affiliating with domestic terror

, and that's what's alarming here. again, i would highlight the caveat that you did, nicole, that not all of the people on this list are necessarily still members, but what it does show is what you said at the beginning, extremism is going mainstream and it is start tock creep into those institutions and that's very alarming from the public safety perspective. >> miles, i think the other pieces when confronting with their existence on the list. at least one state republican, representative didn't disavow the draup. he was also from the ap, south dakota to republican phil jensen is included among the names. he told the a.p. he paid for a one-year membership and never received any oath keepers literature, attended any meetings or renewed his membership. he would not say whether he now disavows them and he didn't have information about the group,

really? they used to be a solid conservative group. i don't know where they are now. their leader stewart rhodes faces federal seditious conspiracy charges, conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding, obstructing an official proceeding and aiding and abetting, what else do you need to know about the head of the group to disavow them, miles? >> it's really breath taking and nicole, you and i have used this example a lot, but i have to go back to it because it helps people understand how serious this is. january 6th was a domestic terrorist attack. what if the news report today was instead that people in the u.s. military and law enforcement and elected republicans had joined al qaeda or isis and then went a step furger and justified their membership in al qaeda or isis.

it's not a perfect analogy and elected officials and people who are supposed to protect this country affiliating with domestic extremist groups and we would never have a elected that post-9/11 and there would be calls for sweeping trials and investigations if we had elected leaders affiliating with isis and al qaeda. i would also say, though, that i think there is just underreport. i've tacked on a lot of researchers and investigators that aren't domestic terrorist groups, that have affiliates currently filling in and elsewhere and i think the rot goes much deeper than this initial story than those who currently have affiliations. >> yamiche, president biden has stepped right into this conversation in the country by trying to chief a part from the old-fashioned republicans he used to know in the united

states senate. it seems they have a high level of awareness that this radicalization is going on in parts of the right. >> certainly, and the real concern that president biden has really was is part of the reason why he gave that speech in philadelphia, where he really talked about the sort of threats to american democracy from within. the idea that there really needs to be a serious look at how our democracy is in peril and he really wanted to call out in very clear and direct ways, the people in this country that are really, i think adding to the warnings and the scariness of where we are as a democracy. i also say when i talked to civil rights leaders they remind me that the best part of january 6th is understanding that these are not fringe people from the internet. these were real estate brokers and they were veterans and police officers. oftentimes when we talk about

domestic terrorism and we talk about racist views and extremist views and in fact, when they are i part of society and teachers and school boards and all of these different places in our society, and civil rights organizers remind me, this is not new and elected officials and police officers were also the people that were a pat of the kkk. i'm not saying that the oath keepers are the, can kkk, we as a country need to understand that the ugliness we often want to run from, that those people lynching people across the south, they were elected officials too, and that's what i talk about when we talk about stories like this one. >> you have pushed my brain to the far corners of fear with thoughts and insights of foreign terrorism and our very ugly history and thank you both so much for having that conversation with me.

miles, thank you. yamiche sticks around longer. the obamas today at the white house and a time-honored tradition and a reminder of a peaceful transfer of power. we'll play for you some of what first lady michelle obama had to say about that next. helle obamao say about that next. my mental health was much better. my mind was in a good place. but my body was telling a different story. i felt all people saw were my uncontrolled movements. some mental health meds can cause tardive dyskinesia,

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takes to preserve democracy in america noting that events like these today are much more than just formalities. they are about the continuation of democracy and the peaceful transfer of power. take a look at what she said. >> traditions like this matter, not just for those of us who hold these positions but for everyone participating in and watching our democracy. you see, the people, they make their voices heard with their vote we hold an inauguration to ensure a peaceful transition of power. those of us lucky enough to serve, work as barack said as hard as we can for as long as we can, as long as the people choose to keep us here, and once our time is up, we move on. >> wow, you're supposed to, right? until today a portrait unveiling

had not been held in more than ten years, donald trump break with the tradition that each president host his predecessor regardless of party, refused to invite the obamas. we're back with yamiche. this was to former first lady michelle obama's point, a lot more than a formality or a portrait unveiling today. this felt like it had all of the weight of the moment on it, michelle obama spoke to it perfectly. >> certainly, and when you saw michelle obama, former first lady michelle obama, she was really speaking as an american saying part of our country's ability to be the sort of jewel and that sort of continuing democracy that makes people want to come and move to this country is that we hold onto traditions, and we do things in a way that really underscores that, no matter political party, we continue to transfer power in a peaceful way. i think it really was in some ways underscoring that they hope that that will be the case.

they hope in the future we will have a political system that is not so partisan that people can't even do traditional things like unveil a portrait. i think when former president trump decided not to hold that and the animosity that he had for democrats in particular, not just about policies but personal animosity, let's remember that the former president called into question the birthplace of barack obama. he was the leader of that racist conspiracy theory saying he was not born in the united states. that was sort of un-american. and michelle obama has reemerged and has been since she was at the white house, has tried to speak to americans as a people rather than with a political party. >> let me show exactly what you're talking about, yamiche. here's more. we don't have it. we're going to do this again in the next hour. we're going to show more of what president obama had to say. she said as much as some folks

want us to believe that the story has lost some of its shine, that division and discrimination and everything else might have dimmed its light, i still know deep in my heart that what we share as my husband continues to say, so much bigger than what we don't. our democracy is so much stronger than our differences. wow. >> yeah, and there's michelle obama trying to remind the country what her husband famously told the country, which is that we're not a red america or blue america. we're supposed to be the united states of america. i think especially in this moment where i know going out on the campaign trail, it does feel that the country is even more torn apart than just political differences and that people are wondering whether or not our democracy will survive. she was using this moment as she was unveiling that beautiful portrait of her and former president obama that she was speaking to the country to say hold on a minute. we can have our differences but let's agree on the facts. let's agree on the constitution and american democracy being something we all want to cherish.

a lot of times we don't feel that out in the country. we certainly don't feel that when we hear some of the divisive conspiracy theories and lies about the election and all sorts of other things. i thought it was interesting to see celebration and laughter in the white house. we've lived through so much with the pandemic and everything else. it was also interesting to see the sort of jubilation in the room. >> yeah, sort of what these rooms were built for. we're going to have much more. we're going to show you president obama's remarks as well in the next hour. yamiche, thank you so much for sticking around for the whole hour with us. we're really grateful. >> thanks. former cia director john brennan weighs in on those documents taken by the ex-president to mar-a-lago. we're learning they include details about another country's nuclear capabilities. we'll be right back after a quick break. ht back after a quick break. , i can tell busines is going through the “woof”. but seriously we need a reliable way to help keep everyone connected from wherever we go. well at at&t we'll help you find the right wireless plan for you. so, you can stay connected to all your drivers and stores on america's most reliable 5g network.

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means more people get the assistance that they nee they get someone to partner in such a way to see transformation come to them. yes on prop 27, because there's no place like home. there were times when i was secretary of state that literally a military courier would come into my office, it would be an emergency.

there wouldn't be time to get to the white house and have a meeting in what's called a scif, a secured facility. so usually a man, it was always a man as i remember, walked in. he would have like a briefcase locked to his wrist, and he would come into my office and he would say you have to look at this immediately, secretary. he would unlock the briefcase. he would stand there. he would give me this document that had really delicate, secret information about something of importance. i would read it. then i would sign that i had read it. it would go back into the locked box attached to his wrist and off he would go. >> i kept wondering where trump's watch was. hi again, everyone. it's 5:00 in new york. a briefcase locked to his wrist. if you'd seen it, it doesn't sound quite so alarming, but it's really important detail about how sensitive these documents are.

secretary of state hillary clinton had to sign off that she had read the document and then it got locked back onto that watch. that's normal. that's what normal looks like. that's how classified information and the most sensitive intelligence is normally handled. making the fact that the twice impeached disgraced ex-president took and then hoarded hundreds of classified documents with that kind of secret intelligence at his resort and residence all the more troubling and shocking. there is brand new bomb shell reporting in "the washington post" that we talked about in the last hour, we're going to talk about it again. it reveals that among those hundreds of documents in trump's possession at mar-a-lago for 18 months was a document describing a foreign government's military defenses, including its nuclear capabilities. "the washington post" reporting says that people familiar with the matter did not identify the foreign government in question or say where at mar-a-lago that document was found. just under a month ago "the washington post" reported that classified documents relating to

nuclear weapons were among the items sought in the fbi's august search. this new reporting, though, shows that they found some of what they're looking for. "the post" goes on to explain how sensitive some of the documents taken during the serk were. quote, some of the seized documents detailed top secret u.s. operations so closely guarded that many senior national security officials are kept in the dark about them. only the president, some members of his cabinet or a cabinet level official could authorize other government officials to know details of these special access programs. that's according to people familiar with the search who spoke anonymously to describe sensitive details of an ongoing investigation. these types of documents in the wrong hands could have serious and dire consequences. even others just knowing about their existence can be problematic. here's donald trump's former defense secretary mark esper this morning. >> well, you don't want your adversaries to know that you know what they have or what they can do because otherwise they

change their capabilities. they change their own security procedures et cetera. the same is true of course by the sources and methods. you don't want them to know how you're getting that information, whether it's through signals intelligence, human intelligence, you know, overhead surveillance, you name it. so you safeguard all those things because otherwise you compromise your access, and thus your own nation's security. and that would be my principle concern, and i'm sure a concern of most national security officials. >> that's where we begin the hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends, ashley parker is here. she's the senior national political correspondent for "the washington post," also an msnbc political analyst. harry litman is back, former u.s. attorney and former deputy assistant attorney general, now the host of the talking fed podcast, and former cia director john brennan joins us. he's now an msnbc senior national security analyst. director brennan, i start with you. the portrait of what trump took and refused to turn over before this became a law enforcement

matter and then defied a grand jury subpoena to keep is growing more alarming, and i wonder your take and your analysis of what we're learning from "the washington post" that another country's nuclear program secrets were included in the documents he kept. >> well, nicolle, the amount of information and documents that have been found at mar-a-lago and the nature of the sensitive programs that are contained in those documents really is very unnerving from the standpoint of what this could mean in terms of the consequences for our national security. these special access programs are something that are the most highly sensitive and highly restricted within the u.s. government. when i worked at the white house for four years during president obama's first term, my office was a scif in the west wing, but within my office i had to keep certain documents in a locked safe. they were that sensitive. and if i were to take them out, i would have to make sure that

there would be a record of who they were shown to, where they were, and they had to be returned to the appropriate owners or the stewards of these programs. and so it makes me wonder what were the practices during the trump administration that donald trump was able to collect these documents and then bring them back to the residence and then bring them down to mar-a-lago. it seems as though there was just a failure to have a system in place that was going to protect our nation's secrets. you know, i just came back from the white house for the unveiling of the portraits of barack obama and michelle obama. michelle obama talked about the importance of traditions. and it made me think when i heard those words about the presidential tradition of safe forwarding our national security, but protecting our secrets, of making sure that we respect the work and the sacrifice that had been done over so many years to acquire the intelligence that we need to keep this country safe, and it certainly appears as though donald trump did not care whatsoever about the importance of our national security and to

try to make sure he fulfill those presidential obligations to keep this country's secrets in very safe hands. >> director brennan, i posed that question to sue gordon about what her concerns were. "the washington post" had some reporting and the times has also reported that he traveled with boxes of classified documents around foreign countries. and i know times are different. she said that she was less concerned when there was a security apparatus around him, when there was a national security adviser and ostensibly traveled with him, it's not clear how often they briefed him. you take all of that away, right, he's at mar-a-lago and it's not even scleer that they've been truthful. let me say that the other way. it is clear that they had lied about where mar-a-lago the documents were. where does your alarm go.

we're not even getting true answers about where at the golf club the documents were. >> we know he was irresponsible even when he was at the white house in terms of what he shared and exposed to foreign visitors. i do think in the waning days of his presidency, there was a haphazard approach to security. again, the amount of documents that found their way to mar-a-lago really is quite concerning in terms of how they actually travel from the white house to mar-a-lago. how many people put their hands on it, how many people looked at it, what documents might have been taken in that process where they were moved to. but again, mar-a-lago is a sieve. and again, thinking about foreign intelligence services that could easily get people into mar-a-lago, hey, there's to buy a membership or have somebody in a cleaning crew or something else. if those documents were left unsecured for that length of time, i am sure my national

security colleagues and intelligence professionals who are trying to do this risk assessment right now are just in absolute shock in terms of the type of things that may have been exposed including the nuclear capabilities of foreign countries, whether it be adversaries or allies, this is among the most sensitive, the most highly restricted documents in the u.s. government, and the fact that donald trump cared not a whit about it, just underscores how irresponsible he has been as a president and afterward in these last 19 months or so. >> i wonder if you can explain why, there are nine, china, france, israel, north korea, there are more nuclear powers. can you explain why a country's nuclear capabilities or ambitions are among the best protected secrets? >> we need to understand what

the potential threats are to our country, that are posed from adversaries, potentially russia and china. we want to understand what their capabilities are, what their decision-making process involves, it requires an intense effort on the intelligence community about the potential use of them. also from the standpoint of making sure we understand how we and our partners and allies are going to coordinate activities in the event of some type of nuclear crisis. and so that's why we want to make sure that presidents who come into office are aware of what our knowledge is of adversaries capabilities, what our capabilities are, and also how there might be some vulnerabilities or weaknesses that could be exploited. so these are the things that we want to make sure that are not going to be exposed in any way, and again, if they were exposed, they could be lasting damaging to our national security. >> do you think, director

brennan, that donald trump understood our country or any other country's nuclear capabilities? >> no. and i would bet that he didn't even read these documents. he may have been part of a briefing and when he heard about what the topic was, he said, okay, i want to keep that document. and the fact that he was allowed to keep them, not only after the briefing but also when he left the white house, the chief of staff role as you well know is so critically important, and it shows that mark meadows was not up to the task at all. he was not only absent, but he, in fact, didn't think -- was betting these efforts by donald trump to just do whatever he wanted as he left the white house. and so that's why, again, thinking about those last weeks when donald trump was fighting and trying to hold onto office what might have been happening at that time that did not have that security apparatus, that tradition, those practices, the

security that have safeguarded secrets up to then. >> ashley parker this is a scoop by your colleagues and and "the washington post," so congratulations on that. i went pack and looked at some of your great reporting on trump while he was president, and there was little rocket man. there was the planned to nuke hurricanes. i mean, he knew we had nukes, but it was never clear that he knew what a nation does with their nukes. what is your take on what you and your colleagues are reporting that trump had hoarded and refused to turn over after very civilized negotiations with the national archives and then engagement by the fbi and then in defiance of a grand jury subpoena. >> well, just to set the table, nuclear weapons, nuclear powers, again, something sort of that

muscular, that sort of powerful, is something former president trump has long been obsessed with, even before he became the president. and as you mentioned, it was something that sort of intrigued and beguiled him while he was in office. you know, what jumped out to me in our series of scoops, was the first scoop said that nuclear documents was something that the justice department was seeking when they searched mar-a-lago. and former president trump, he came out and he tweeted that it was a hoax, and having covered president biden for two years was just -- was interesting to be reminded that oftentimes trump repeatedly says things that are just fundamentally not true, and when he comes out against a scoop or against an explosive piece of news, what it actually ought to mean is that it's dead accurate, and he wishes it hadn't been public, which is what the second washington scoop shows. just sort of these pretty devastating specifics of what

was contained in the classified documents, and again, the thing that jumps out to me that you sort of outlined, nicolle, is not just that he took these documents with him in a way that should have never been allowed to happen, but there were three times when documents went back to their rightful place. the first is when the national archives got some early on in january. the second time was in june when it became clear that trump and his team had not turned over all of these documents and there were pretty high level and serious negotiations. and the fact that this final set of documents was recovered in this third batch during the fbi having to go into mar-a-lago and against the former president's wishes, searched the property, seems to show, and again, there's a lot we don't know but that this was specifically something that for whatever reason he was incredibly reluctant to turn over. >> harry, what do you see when you see this portrait of -- and ashley just gave a good summary. there were these high level

negotiations, some things went back in june. more things went back in that hand wrapped and taped plastic folder indicating that trump's lawyers clearly knew they were in possession of classified materials. but this didn't -- this didn't go over. this didn't get returned. this other country's nuclear secrets were hoarded by the ex-president and seized in the court approved search. exactly one month ago. >> yeah, i mean, and i begin to feel handicapped by the thesaurus. we're running out of words for outrage. we're running out of words for alarm, but it was -- look, everything, it was already outrageous and alarming that he took them in the first place. we've now moved up and up and up and up, five alarms and we've gone past. we are talking about the crown jewels. we are talking about information that could have existential stakes for some countries and

terrible damage to our national security, and you feel as if, you know, are you being hyperbolic? no, it's just the more we learn, the more alarming it is up to past a level we never even conceived of. but ashley's point so well taken because we now have this overlay. we find that this is after everything he's forced to discourage it it or the search turns it up. that means from the defensive posture we now have to undertake in assessing the damage, this is something he liked a lot and wanted to have around for 20 months and who knows what use he wanted to put to it. we are really at a point of, you know, complete absence of being able to even, you know, talk about the possible consequences. look, we knew he was a monster who -- that doesn't care about american interests, american

safety, american lives, but we're really talking about tangible possibilities of unspeakable human and national security damage, and it sounds crazy and alarming to say it, but that's exactly where we are. >> it is not natural to assess a current or former president as a national security risk, but that's the position he's put us in by allowing the private negotiations over returning these documents to the government to become public, by defying the grand jury subpoena. let me turn to what our adversaries are doing right now because we are focused on ourselves and on our ex-president, but here's director brennan, this was sue gordon who said our adversaries would be up to. >> the other is how important it is that you understand that people will be coming after you

and they're pretty slick, and you don't even have to conspire with them in order for them to be able to work magic to try and get your information. so we had a president that had access to everything who had in my estimation not a really complete understanding of what he was protecting, and his engagements who he works with. you know, the fact that he has foreign businesses, knowing that he would be in situations where he could be bumped by adversaries who would want the information he had. you just knew that, and all you had to do was apply the need to know that is applied to any officer at any level to say he just didn't have the need to know. >> director brennan, the conduct service, how she knew before he left office that he needed to be

cut off from our country's intelligence products, and that was a pretty carefully articulated answer, but what she lands on is that trump because of the fact that he has foreign businesses, knowing he would be in situations where he could be bumped by adversaries who would want the information, all you have to do is apply the need to know that's applied to any officer at any level and say he didn't have the need to know. her argument was he shouldn't have had anything, not just taken to mar-a-lago, but he shouldn't have had access to any of this information at all once he left the office. >> well, certainly not after he left the office, and that's why president biden decided that he really had no need to know anything on the intelligence front or in the classified front after he left office. but it's clear that donald trump was always susceptible to flattery, and that's one of the things that foreign intelligence services do in terms of having individuals as she pointed out bumping up against him, and trying to get into his good

graces so that he would then talk and basically show off in terms of what he might know or what he might have, which really worries me in terms of what he might have already done with those documents. did he show them to people down in mar-a-lago as a way to impress others? and that's why i think sue is right to be very concerned about what might have happened over the last 19 or 20 months and what are foreign and intelligence services now doing to try and trace back what might have been the route that some of these documents, very sensitive secrets took as they were brought out of the white house. who else might have had access to them, who might have seen them or reviewed them and seen whether or not they could then exploit some opportunities to try to understand exactly what our national security secrets are. >> it's just a surf reel surreal conversation. when we come back, the latest installment in our ongoing series "deadline democracy" in

the key swing state where election denialism has reached a fever pitch with big lie republicans vying for every statewide office that is up for grabs this november. it's just one piece of a very disturbing national trend, and much more to show from the white house today that we showed you a little bit of in the last hour where president joe biden and first lady dr. jill biden welcomed former president barack obama and former first lady michelle obama for their official portrait unveiling. it is must see tv when the bidens and the obamas get together. we'll show you more of that later in the hour. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. go anywhere.

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. so we can now add massachusetts to the list of states where come november the governor's race there will feature a far right trump endorsed republican candidate. that's because jeff deal clinched his party's nomination last night thanks in no small part to an endorsement from the twice impeached disgraced ex-president himself who went so far as to suggest that deal would rule massachusetts with an iron fist. deal is the latest in a growing club of maga candidates who might find it a little more difficult to win a general election than a republican primary. deal has suggested the 2020 election was rigged, another in a long line of liars about the election. we mentioned yesterday one in two americans will see the name of an election denier on their ballot this november. that's according to 538. that phenomenon is particularly pronounced in the state of

arizona. of the state positions in charge of certifying elections there, that would be their governor, their secretary of state, and their a.g., all three feature republican nominees who have called for the decertification of the 2020 election result. let's bring in nbc news correspondent vaughn hillyard live in tempe, arizona. vaughn, this puts to bed the notion that if you humor the maga right with an audit, but the cyberninjas, trump's buddies, trump's allies ran arizona's audit of the thrice counted and certified election results from 2020 and found no irregulari irregularities, and yet, here we are. >> reporter: right, i think, nicolle, we have to look like any other american political movement over the decades. this is a political movement here, which we have to look beyond 2022. look at this time line here because we're talking about a construct of several years in

arizona, for example, that have led us to this point. november 2018, trump first suggests that after martha mcsally loses that senate race he called for a new election. january 2019, trump ally kelli ward, she won the az gop chairmanship, that's when the party structure started to change. november 2020, biden wins but just a month later, house speaker rusty bowers, that's when he started to get that pressure from trump and allays to overturns election. after doug due psy certifies biden's win it's paul gosar, the congressman from arizona who on the floor of the congress objected to the electoral college certification. that's when the cyber ninjas come into play, april to september 2021, they conduct that so-called audit. september 2021, they weren't able to find anything confirming biden won. and october 2021, that's when arizona a.g. opens an investigation into the 2020 election. he also found nothing that there was no widespread fraud and

that's what leads to august 2022. we could call the last four years sizzling up to this moment of what is now a boiling point. you have governor, secretary of state, and the attorney general republican nominees. each of these individuals have called for the decertification of the 2020 election and why do these three positions matter? because each of them are required to certify the presidential results in 2024. here in arizona, it's governor, secretary of state, and attorney general that all have to sign on that dotted line. i want to let you hear from democrat chris hayes. she is the attorney general candidate who is running against abe homiday, who is that republican candidate for attorney general. i caught up with her earlier about how races of like hers have been brought to the forefront. take a listen. >> i think people understand that american democracy runs through these races and particularly in a state like arizona where my republican opponent still wants to decertify the 2020 election or

my republican opponent, you know, is saying, let's eliminate vote by mail. vaughn, 90% of arizonians vote by mail, and yet, the republican leadership here is trying to essentially disenfranchise them and take away their right to do that. so people realize that a.g.'s races are critical not just in arizona, but in so many other states like wisconsin, pennsylvania, and georgia. american democracy runs through attorney general races this year. >> reporter: nicolle, you heard kris mayes say it right there, it's not just arizona. for secretary of state you have election deniers from new mexico, minnesota, michigan, doug mastriano, if he wins the governorship in pennsylvania, he'd be in charge of appointing the secretary of state but also attorney general candidate in michigan, down in florida, ashley moody is running for re-election there. this is a situation here in which it's not just arizona that could cause chaos in 2024, but

you're talking about numerous other states where joe biden won in 2024. if these individuals pull off republican wins, it could wreak havoc in 2024, nicolle. >> vaughn, you know, it's different from any other political movement in history, though, because it's all predicated on one lie, disproven in the state by republicans, republican governor certified joe biden's win, republican speaker of the house refused to overturn the election. rusty bowers became a national figure in the january 6th hearings. and not even republicans but super shady trump republicans conducted the state's six-month long audit of all those ballots and found the same thing that all of the elected republicans found. why is the lie totally in control of the republican establishment in arizona? >> reporter: nicolle, i'd contend, again, going back to that time line, look who is behind the big lie. look who is behind trying to

hold onto this political power. the likes of kelli ward i first met more than seven years ago when she was a state legislature. she then challenged in 2015 john mccain in a republican primary. she was a fringe figure. you know, she was trying to get on camera and be relevant to the political equation. she then ran for the u.s. senate in 2018 against martha mcsally. she lost that too. she and a lot of these other activist type figures had been fringe figures that had been seen by the likes of the john mccain apparatus as being irrelevant to the party and just side shows. guess what, ultimately there comes a time and day where these folks found their way to gain political power, and that was by being allies of donald trump. the last thing they want to do is let it go. kelli ward is now the republican party chairwoman hear in arizona, and from the stage this summer she said that she was, quote, a proud member of the orange mafia. so when we're talking about the big lie, these folks put it all on the line over the last decade and this is their moment.

jan brewer even suggested that they were too extreme. these are the folks that don't want to see that power. as any political movement goes, once you're in power, it's tough to let go and these folks have no intention of doing so. >> nbc's vaughn hillyard, thank you for your disturbing but fantastic reporting. joining our coverage political strategist dowd and host of a word with jason johnson, they are both msnbc contributors. jason, didn't trump stare at the eclipse, it's like staring at the sun to cover these stories. you want to rip up your papers and bang your head on the table. we've got to look, right? we've got to look at the places where the lie based platform of the ex-president has totally taken hold in the state party apparatus, and that state is arizona. >> this is the thing, nicolle, i am so amused that this woman

describes herself as the orange mafia. like, you're telling on yourself, right? you're admitting that you're a part of a criminal empire that has its bases and its headquarters in the now investigated and searched home of the twice impeached former president of the united states. they're not operating as a party. it's a mob. it's a gang. it's an insurrection. we know what they're doing at this particular point. what concerns me honestly, nicolle, and i don't care if it's arizona or wisconsin or what we see in massachusetts, or what we see in pennsylvania is that you have 30 to 40 something percent of americans in these states who are willing to vote for somebody who fundamentally doesn't believe in the system that could get them into office. i mean, like how would you have a national association of airline pilots who like don't believe in gravity, right? or a bunch of people trying to be clergy and saying god is dead. that is essentially what you have happening in arizona. so even if kari lake loses, even if a lot of these attorney general candidates lose, it still means you have a lot of people in those states who do not believe in elections and

believe in an absolute fantasy that erodes our democracy at a basic level. >> matt dowd, i have a long -- a personal hangup, but i'll share it. one of the things that always bothered me about the -- i think it's 140 house republicans who objected to the certification of president joe biden's win is that their name is on the same ballot as trump's, and so they weren't willing to say don't swear me in. it wasn't fair and square, i didn't win because the ballots are corrupt. they won and they were reelected on the same pieces of paper that they were saying, you know, didn't send trump. it never made sensuous but what vaughn's reporting bears out is that logic is not part of the calculation. >> if we try to bring reason to this, it's not going to ever work because their attachment to this is not rationally based, it's emotionally based, their attachment to this big lie.

deep down you asked a great question to vaughn. deep down what's at the basis of this. what's at the basis of this is what they refuse to say out loud, and what they refuse to say out loud is they do not like the fact that united states is becoming multicultural, multiracial democracy. that's fundamentally what's at the deep down basis of this, that they do not like the fact that they have to win elections, in order to win elections, they have to appeal to latinos. they have to appeal to african americans, they have to appeal to gay and lesbia americans. and so every time this group -- i mane, you can't bring any reason to it. i mean, the republicans picked up house seats in 2020 while biden was winning. so that's -- i mean, like, so if reason had anything to do with this chaning their mind, they would, but really at the fun mental basis of this is the fact that america is changing.

they know it's more difficult for a changing america for them to win elections, so what do they do? they adopt a big lie that says basically there's fraud. instead of basically saying out loud, what they fundamentally believe is, they do not believe in a multicultural, multiracial democracy. >> i have to sneak in a break. don't go anywhere. we'll be right back with matt and jason on the other side. son.

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we're back with matt and jason. let me show you something hillary clinton said on "the view" about taking these points matt is making and some of the points president biden is making and taking this to the country all in the next nine weeks. let me show you that first. >> you know, look, facism is a very big word, i know that. but so is socialism, and the republicans call every democrat who want people to have health care a socialist. so i think we do need to be careful with our language, but i think the problem is if you go through the hallmarks of authoritarian regimes, you see too many characteristics. unfortunately, on our republican side and my most fervent hope is that republicans themselves will begin to reject all of that verbally, vocally in their voting, and you know, kind of

reconstitute the republican party to where it used to be and not the, you know, party of trump, which i think is very dangerous to the country. >> so jason, i'm bringing this to you because i know this is controversial, and people have different views on this, but add hillary clinton to the list that includes joe biden of people who miss the old republican party with which they could fight over national security, over -- we lost jason, we'll try to get him back -- over taxes and other things, but the point that she's making is a really important one, and everyone needs to hear this. what republicans do with socialism isn't always visible on a national level. i believe the way that florida turned as red as it has is because republicans call every democrat and every sort of program to help the poor or to help with health care a socialist program and in that state for some reason it resonates particularly well for republican campaigns and candidates, but she's right. if democrats can make the point in a fact-based manner, the republicans in terms of their

numbers are the largest authoritarian force the world over. >> yeah, nicolle, here's the problem, words matter, right? words have always mattered in campaigns, and whether you're talking about socialism or fascism or anything like that, the words only mean something to the people who are already in agreement with you, right? whether or not republicans were calling democrats socialists, the word they use now they just say woke, and we all know woke is republican speak for n word or n word lovers, let's be honest. when desantis says we're going to stop the woke this, the woke that, we know exactly what they're saying. while on some hand i agree with hillary clinton that, hey, you know, it looks like the republicans have moved to this problematic place, i've said that for a long time. they're no longer a party, they're just a dimestore front for a terrorist movement. i don't believe this is going to change. this is not going to change. i don't believe that fact-based arguments work anymore. we just finished talking about the big lie in arizona.

these people can't be convinced by facts. it is a cult at this particular point, and a cult can only be stopped by two ways. you either outlaw it, which we can't do because we have a semifunctional democracy, or you try and deprogram people. frankly, if i've got nine weeks to go before a presidential election or midterm, i don't have time to deprogram people from a cult. everybody who wants to vote for me in a functional democracy can go and pull down their ballot. that needs to be the focus. i think people are too concerned about trying to pull people out of this maga thing, and they've already committed to something they know ultimately is anti-democratic. >> matt and jason are sticking around. when we come back, more scenes from the white house today and the return of president barack obama and first lady michelle obama. that's next. obama. that's next.

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react to fast-moving markets with dynamic charting and a futures ladder that lets you place, flatten, or reverse orders so you won't miss an opportunity i want to thank sharon sprung for capturing everything i love about michelle, her grace, her intelligence, and the fact that she's fine. [ laughter ] [ cheers and applause ] she is. her portrait is stunning. and i want to thank robert mccurdy for taking on a much more difficult subject.

[ laughter ] and doing a fantastic job with mine. >> they were both in rare form, that was former president barack obama, former first lady michelle obama back in the what house for their official portrait unveilings. back with matt dowd, it felt like the obamas were well aware of the importance of this event that we're back to the traditions of a democracy being celebrated. michelle obama's remarks were particularly powerful on that front. what did you make of today's appearance? >> first, that barack obama never -- it surprises me about his great sense of comedic timing. he's one of the best on how he delivers. you know, what i was struck by and i reflected on this while i watched it was just the sense of decency that president obama and michelle obama exude. you know fundamentally they care

about americans ask they care about the world including in addition to president biden and jill biden. i've had my disagreements with president obama and i've had my disagreements with president biden, but they are decent people that people that fundamentally care and love this country and the world. that's what i don't get anymore in understanding of this, when you have a president sandwiched between them who's one of the most vulgar indecent people we've ever seen in the oval office and the fact that a group of voters seems to forget the fact that decency and kindness and just treating everyone with dignity, which president obama and president biden both do, even if you disagree with them on policy, is such an immense contrast, it still surprises me that people who gather in communities, in churches, the maga world, that they're willing to put their power in one of the most indecent vulgar people ever to sit in the oval office. >> matt's not wrong.

this didn't happen while trump was president. the obama portraits were not unveiled while trump was president. trump was trying to have them indicted or investigated the whole time. it was a reminder of what this was supposed to look like. to be honest, this happens is p. president bush's and mrs. bush's were revealed by president obama and michelle obama. it is not supposed to be that you have to wait until your party is in the white house. >> the former first lady said nearly every tradition has been upended including trying the make the american experiment work and a peaceful transition of power. this was just one tiny example. the previous portrait unveilings, those bipartisan moments you referenced were often again bipartisan, warm, fun, spirited. and the last thing i will say is this happened to come at a particularly auspicious time for the biden administration.

you can see it watching these clips on tv. i talk to a few people in the room and they said there was such a sense of joy. part of that was what i was referencing, the decency and the camaraderie. and part of that is that biden has finally hit a very positive stretch of his presidency. >> jason, one of michelle obama's comments today was this. it is about telling that fuller story. the story that includes every single american and every single corner of the country so that our kids and grandkids can see something more for themselves. i agree with matt. president obama's comments were spot on and his timing was perfect. and she also took this moment to really say something about the country and the importance of this moment and these portraits. >> yeah. the thing is, nicole, former president obama would be the first person to say it. he's the star but she's the superstar. when michelle obama speaks, it

doesn't just resonate in political circles. it ends up in magazines, in memes, in hair salon conversations. what she's speaking to isn't just, we have to remember the totality of this country but it has the policy implications. it is a pushback against the anti-crt people. a pushback against the anti-historic maga movement that is we only want to hear a certain part of manager. manager, good bad, warts and all, a 78-year-old now current president and a black guy who is biracial together to actually run this country for eight years. that's what makes this place special and beautiful and that's what she was reminding us of today. >> thank you so much for spending time with us today. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. but it is now time for us to work even harder, searching for meaningful experiences and new adventures for you to embark upon. they say when you reach the top, there's only one way to go.

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reform-related booster shots. they are designed to go after the variants. president biden call the new booster rollout a new vaccine with a new approach and added this. for most americans, that means one covid shot once a year each fall. the white house is encouraging americans to think of the new covid vaccines like the annual flu vaccine millions of us get every year. another break for us. we'll be right back. right back. ♪ it's what sanctuary could look like... feel like... sound like... even smell like. more on that soon. ♪ ♪ the best part? the prequel is pretty sweet too. ♪ ♪ hi, i'm eileen. i live in vancouver, washington and i write mystery novels. dogs have been such an important part of my life. i have flinn and a new puppy.

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