hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york on an extraordinary day of breaking news on a number of fronts and continents. moments ago the justice department announced it will appeal a federal judge's decision to appoint a special master to review those documents seized in the search of donald trump's private residence. we will have full coverage of that story later in the two hours with our friend andrew

weissmann who will join us in a few minutes, but we begin with the news that has made today one of those days that we will simply never forget around here. a global outpouring of grief after queen elizabeth ii passed away earlier today at the age of 96. the queen, who has reigned over the united kingdom and 15 other countries all over the world for 70 years die at balmoral castle, that's her summer home in scotland. all four of the queen's children were by her side in her final moments. these pictures show princes andrew and edward along with her grandson arriving at balmoral earlier today. her son charles is now the king taking the throne as king charles iii. he calls the death of his mother, a moment of the greatest sadness for me and all members of my family, adding this, quote, during this period of mourning and change my family and i will be comforted and sustained by our knowledge of the respect ask deep affection in which the queen was so widely

held. it is difficult to overstate the significance of this moment given the queen's position as a figure of worldwide historical significance and importance, the vast majority of people in the countries in which the queen is the head of state have lived their entire lives without anyone else on the throne. her reign, which spanned 14 u.s. presidents has been a constant as the world witnessed sweeping and dramatic change in practicely every facet of life. the first prime minister to have served while she was queen was winston churchill. he was born in 1875, 100 years before the birth of the most recent prime minister to serve under the queen liz truss, she was appointed just two days ago. as prs joe biden put it in a statement, quote, her majesty, queen elizabeth ii was more than a monarch. she defined an era in a world of

constant change, she was a steadying presence and a source of comfort and pride for generations of britons including many who have never known their country without her. the seven decades of her history making reign bore witness to an age of unprecedented human advancement and the forward march of human dignity. we sunday our deepest condolences to the royal family who were not only mourning their queen, but their dear mother, grandmother and great-grandmother. her legacy will loom large in the pages of british history and in the story of our world. that story is where we begin this hour with our breaking news and some of our favorite reporters and friends. katty kay is here u.s. correspondent for bbc studios and also an msnbc contributor and also joining us eugene robinson washington post columnist and washington post columnist. he was with the washington post during the years charles and tie ana were married and with us

set, former top official at the u.s. state department richard stengel, msnbc analyst. katty kay, i'll start with you. your thoughts as night now falls on this country mourning the loss of their queen. >> i guess i didn't expect to be as shocked as i have been today. we knew it was coming. she's 96. every photo that we've seen of her over the last six months she looked frailer and thinner and the speculation that there was an underlying condition under the mobility issues and when i got the news i was stunned and it was like i didn't expect her to go or i didn't think it would be real that show would go and even things like saying king charles iii or god save the king, it all feels slightly unreal at the moment, and that -- i guess as we look back at why we were all covering this, why there is so much

global attention, why an american television network is covering rolling coverage of the passing of the head of state of another country, it's partly her longevity that you were talking about, nicole. partly those 70 years that she has lived through the cold war, the end of the cold war and the tumult of the 1960s, 9/11. she's lived through so much, but it's also her character and it's the person she was. she never complained. she never shirked her duty. she never overshared. she also, by the way, and this something that people don't appreciate so much. she had a wicked sense of humor and it's the nature of who she was. she was this constant, reassuring presence in an ever-changing world and that's irreplaceable. >> katty, i am so glad you put everything on the table asking this question, why are we in rolling breaking coverage about this story, and i think you sort of asked and answered the

question more beautifully than i've heard anyone do so. i want to play some of this life that she lived, not just in the public eye, but in service of the country and in public service for her whole life. let me play this. a speech on her 21st birthday in 1947 in cape town, dedicating herself to service. >> it is very simple. i declare before you all that my whole life, whether it be long or short, shall be devoted to your service and to the service of our great imperial family to which we all belong. >> so i want to play one more piece of sound, katty, and because this is her covid address. it's from april 2020. i covered it when she delivered this address because it felt like something we all needed to

hear. let me show you this, too. >> we should take comfort that while we may have more still to endure, better days will return. we will be with our friends again. we will be with our families again. we will meet again. but for now, i send my thanks and warmest good wishes to all. >> katty, just about every moment in between those two public addresses seen around the world was spent for service and in the public eye. >> yeah. i think it's fair to say she really hardly ever put a foot wrong as monarch, and i have friends who are monarchists and friends who are not monarchists and they will all to a person say whether i believe in the monarchy or not, i really admire the queen, and it is that sense of service when she committed herself at the age of 21 to her

people, around the world, by the way, because she was also head of the commonwealth and head of state of commonwealth countries, she meant it and she followed through on that, and she won the trust of her subjects and she kept the trust of her subjects for 70 years and that, in a world that has changed as rapidly as ours has with technology that has up ended the right to privacy, i think that's a remarkable feat because every step wrong this she might have taken especially in the last ten, 20 years of iphones in our hands, would have been broadcast around the world and yet this is not to cannonize her and there were mistakes that were made ask the death of diana stands out as the biggest one and that aside, it doesn't surprise me that she has such extraordinarily high approval ratings in the uk that her people love her so much because she -- she lived up to that promise that she made at the age of 21.

>> there's this incredible self-awareness. i want to play her speech from 2010 and i want to bring my colleague and friend joining us from outside buckingham palace, senior international correspondent keir simmons and we've been watching you any katty all day long and first, tell me what's happening behind you. >> well, there are crowds behind me, you know, nicole. crowds of people and it's difficult to see now because it's dark, but they had to close the road. anyone who has been to london knows the area outside buckingham palace and the famous mile because there is a place where you go if you come here on vacation and it's extraordinary how quiet there is and then there are brief moments of celebration and respect, people applauding and people cheering. katty was talking about the shock of this. i am struggling to take in that we were here just a few months

ago, just earlier this year with crowds in this street looking at the queen on the buckingham palace balcony behind me there and that here we are now talking about her passing and you've been talking, nicole, already about the crucial question of duty and service. now the queen, of course, is the head of the constitution here and she was, of course, a cultural icon, but the fame part mattered the least to her and her life is a lesson to so many because of that, and i think in particular, that picture of her just a few days ago, nicole, with the new prime minister hauling herself up with a cane in hand to do her constitutional duty and appoint the new prime minister. that is a lesson in what service and duty is. it isn't fame. it isn't being celebrated and it

isn't all of the soliloquies sung about her in the days ahead and they really understand and perceive, despite the pain you are in, still, getting yourself up with your walking stick in order to do your job of appointing the next prime minister and days later she was dead. it -- it leaves you speechless. >> keir, i've interviewed you from points far more hostile than where i am standing right now, and i've never quite heard all of this in your voice, and i just want you to ask more and i have this picture up and it was two days ago, and she was with you areio new prime minister. tell me more of what you and katty are just prepared for, and the rest of you, your heart and your soul thought would never

come to pass. >> exactly as katty said, you know it's coming and then you can't believe it. and so much of this is familiar, isn't it, to anyone watching who has lost a loved one. even if you know it's coming. even if they are an elderly loved one, it happens too fast, doesn't it? it happens in ways and this is human life. it happens in ways that you don't expect, and i think for us, for me, anyway and for many the fact that we just saw her just a few days ago with the prime minister, that we saw her here this year, it's hard -- it's kind of incomprehensible. you know, something else about all of this playing out, we've got king charles now. we're watching history happening. again, this question of service and duty. king charles who is there with his mother today as she dies is immediately the king and has to take on all of that, and there's

a lot of uncertainty for him. he has to immediately take all of that on and you on do you prepare for that, and there is no way to prepare, and it's not kind of lauded and it's the difficult job of trying to get yourself through the process of the private and then also at the same time standing up in public. there are lots of things about the british character that you can criticize and i readily will, and not the stiff upper lip. i love the american ability to --? you make me laugh. >> the ability to talk about -- i love the ability to share emotions and we brits have learned a bunch from you guys about that, but there is also something valuable about just, you know, service and putting

your shoulder to the wheel. you know, just to say it's not just about being a king or a queen or a of the royal family. the people behind me, in a small way it's pouring with rain and everyone has their umbrella out, but they have come here to say thank you in this because they think it's worth devoting a few hours in the rain to pay tribute to a woman who gave her entire life. >> keir, i wonder if you can explain. i -- i studied up today, but talk about operation london bridge. talk about how the nation prepared for this day that i think you've put a very accessible lens on this in our own lives. >> yeah. >> even people that we know, you know, maybe are 96 years old or if they've battled illness. >> yeah. it is always grief that takes our breath away and that brings us to our knees, but in this

case her son has assumed the role of king. king charles, and a nation has to get ready to honor a queen who served her country for 70 years. what does that look like? >> yeah. there are plans in place and there have been different plans depending on where she would die and she died in scottland and she'll be brought by plane down to london and then she will lie in state. i expect the crowds you're seeing here are an indication, and i don't know if you remember, but when the queen mother died there were lines and lines. we call them cues here. lines and lines and people waited for hours. i suspect when it comes to queen elizabeth ii people will fly from around the world to go and say good-bye on their own and have that moment of saying -- and we will see, though, that's

a qi of service and duty and just think of the moment of william and harry walking behind diana's casket and how painful they have described it as being since then and that split screen of private and public and the nature of what duty is, and we will see that again. you have prince charles -- sorry, king charles. >> you've got 24 hours, keir. >> yeah. king charles has to immediately step up and start being at the center of the public mourning and making speeches and being at the state funeral and all of that stuff. yet at the same time, this split screen, you have this incredibly private and painful picture of the royal, the closest royal family members around the queen

racing to be there and just wanting to be by her side and prince william just jumping into a vehicle and driving to get there, to get to balmoral just to be there. we have a picture of prince harry on his open in a car. it looks like he didn't get there in time to to see these are experiences that been watching will recognize him and that's another life of the royal family. you see your li life and before then, it is not easy. to make one other point about that, where they are now, nicole, at balmoral, william and harry are there right now. at balmoral the queen consoled them after the death of their mom, diana. imagine how they are feeling right now. both of them are they're incredibly close to the bean

withen image inwhat they are feeling stay with us as hoong as we can go half you, and running headlong into keir's soliloquy on grief and this isn't just a nation in mourning, but a family very much in mourning. >> yeah. it is this moment where if you've lost a loved one you sort of know what the family is going through and yet they're having to go through it in public. britain went through this strange moment after princess diana died of unusual, uncharacteristic public outpouring of grief, and it felt almost kind of uncomfortable, i think, for the nation. i can't imagine what we're going to go through now that the queen

has died, but maybe some of her stoicism, some of her reluctance to overshare will filter through to the british public, as well. we will think perhaps that the best tribute we can pay her is to act in the way shah thee would have acted and would have wanted us to act, and i wouldn't be surprised if you wanted some of that stoicism and she died in herr home that she loved. she died in the best possible way, she died in the place she loved surrounded by the people she loved at the end of an incredibly long and fruitful life, and it's -- it's sad and it's shocking for us all, but it's the best way she could have gone. it is what we would want for her and i think what she would want for the nation now is for the country to be able to unite around, congress charles ii.

we are entering an uncharted new era and we've had these period in our life, normous change and tumultuous change and the queen is our constant and she held us together despite all of the changes and now i wonder what happens to the nation when she has gone? does the fracturing that we have seen in british society and the changes we have seen and the changes in britain's role around the world does that now accelerate in some way? i think that is a long are term, the kauntry will rally, and some of that outper pouring of affection fors this mother. >> i want to bring in eugene because we make it about us and

there is about a special relationship that is on people's mind today and we've been running the footage of the 13 presidents which have all thought i'll bet she liked me. she had the skill not just on the world stage, but in the room to connect with the most powerful person that our government puts out. let me show you this this is from a state dinner with president obama. it's coming. >> mr. president, i firmly believe that the strength of our links and many shared interests will continue to ensure that when the united states and the united kingdom stand together our people and other people of good will around the world will be more secure and can become more prosperous. >> rick, every american president has counted on and the

president i worked for, you know, it was at every level. it was symbolic and it was policy wise, this special relationship between the united states and the uk. >> yes. i mean, the special relationship phrase was really coined by the british because they wanted desperately to be close to america and there were books how winston churchill was desperate to get fdr after the war. no british prime minister can ever get one inch away from america so it was them talking about the special relationship, but because britain descended from great britain before the war to little england after the war. the queen presided over that. britain is no longer a world power. what actually makes them special is the brand of royalty. that's the thing they know how to do. i'm going to be the skunk at the

garden party today to use a british expression and i also would pay tribute to queen elizabeth for her unrivalled service and dedication, but it was her great,-great-great-grandfather george iii who we rebelled from in the united states of america. >> you played a clip of her at cape town and that was the year that british colonialism which she presided over all these years had a terrible effect on much of the world and it's something that people revolt from. to your earlier question, why are american news networks dedicating all of this time to queen elizabeth's funeral? >> i think it's a good question. i think there is a weakness in the american character that still yearns for that era of hereditary privilege which is the very thing that we escaped

from. so there, i've made myself the skunk of the garden party. >> no. we're keeping it real. eugene, if you want to react or respond to anything that anybody said? >> yeah, i do. first, you heard the emotion in katty's voice and in keir's voice, and i thought that fascinating, too, because we hear that relationship that the british people had with queen elizabeth and with her personally. she was their mother, their grandmother and she was their constant. even though she was 96 years old and frail and everyone knew that this day would come, it's hard for keir and katty, journalists and great journalists trained to be objective. it's hard for them to get their minds around it and i think that's fascinating. you know, rick, i'm not so sure

that we so yearn for this hereditary privilege. i think we enjoy seeing -- watching all of the pomp and circumstance and following and the fairy tail and the question going forward is in an e gal, and what are they thinking in a place like australia, for example? what are they thinking in canada? what are they thinking in anglophone or commonwealth countries and 15 countries around the world that still recognize her as head of state now that she is gone does that

connection continue after king charles or king william? or will she manage to continue and adapt the institution of monarchy over seven decades to give the first address on the radio before she became queen. she, you know, in 2014 she became the first british monarch to send a tweet, you know? she spans that entire period of change, all of the great events of the 20th century and the early 21st century, but how much of that is just her and her duty and here intelligence, her smarts and her ability to adapt rather than the monarchy as an institution, i think have a feeling that question will be asked perhaps sooner than we think in a lot of places. >> and that's so interesting.

i want to just put her back in this kvrgsz because i don't think that anything, rick, that you said would have shocked her. she spoke very openly about, and she seemed to question openly her own traditions. the country's own traditions. this is her address to the united nations in 2010. >> when people in 53 years from now look back on us, and they will view many of our practices as old-fashioned, but it is my hope that when judged by future generations our sincerity and our willingness to take a lead and our willingness to do the right thing will stand the test of time. >> katty and keir, this seemed to be how she navigated these bigger questions that she openly entertained the questioning of

them herself and her intelligence and her sort of emotional intelligence and her intellect let her navigate the profound questions that rick is putting on the table today, katty, you first and then keir. >> i think she was very committed to the idea of monarchy and constitution. remember, when she took over monarchy was on shaky ground and she became queen, never having been born to be queen and she was going to do whatever it took to keep the british monarchy alive. it's not that she wanted monarchy to be dispensed with at all, but she was able to be flexible. she allowed television cameras in and it's a small example into her coronation which was radical back then after the death of

princess diana, she did express the kind of grief that the british public wanted. she is stoical ask beautiful and part of her enduring legacy is she was also adaptable. she took the monarchy up to the edge as far as it could go of opening itself up to the british public while doing the tricky balance of having to maintain a mystique about it because with no mystique and that's a big question for the monarchy going forward, too, particularly in a social media age. how does charles and how do william maintain that mystique around the monarchy because without it the monarchs aren't special. i do think that she -- i would separate her out from the rest of the monarchy in terms of her global appeal and global impact. let's see what happens with king charles and with prince william in the future, but i think to rick's point is the reason we're

focused on her because of the uninature of that longevity and all that she has seen the world go through as well as her extraordinary character, but it's that. prince charles will never have that. he is 73. he's never, ever going to be monarch for this long and will never in that respect will be as extraordinary as she has been. >> in light of your point, which is very smart, katty, about taking the monarchy to the edge in the moment. this is her in 1957. keir, i want to play this for you which i remember at the time this was viewed as our version ever reality tv and she invites everyone inside her personal space. >> it's inevitable that i would seem a rather remote figure to many of you, a successor to the kings and queens of history and someone whose face is familiar in newspapers and films, but who

rarely or never touches your program lives, but now for at least for a few minutes i welcome you to a piece of my own home. >> at the time that really was, keir, pulling the curtains back and letting people in. that was one of her -- something she turned to over and over again to keep the country with her. >> yeah. she didn't like doing it though, and letting the light in on the magic which one constitutionalist warned about it and rule against it. to touch on the conversation you had, nicole, in terms of why is america paying so much attention right now? i would just say a couple of things, one is that while there is a lot of attention on the uk from america, it's reciprocated, your music, your movies, there's enormous influence of america in the uk and in some ways it's a

conversation between two grown-up countries. at the moment of of a loss of a great president it would be wall to wall coverage here about that and i think why that's important to say is because i do think -- we've been talking you and i, nicole, the questions that we are talking about right now in this era of democracy, actually, i think two democracies can have a grown-up conversations about the different ways that the democracies work and the advantages and disadvantages of a constitutional monarchy over a republic and a president, but no system is perfect and i think it is a very healthy conversation. so clearly, there is the question of just somebody that has been an icon, an extraordinary female leader and someone who has given so much, but there are very interesting conversations to have about how our systems work and how we can learn from each other, and by

the way, too, iship your contributors are right any that conversation will happen here. i wonder just as a matter of history, i wonder whether we might see ourselves after the victorian era there was the edwardian era here and most historians view it as the extension of the victorian era, and i wonder if prince charles is something like that and not necessarily, particularly impact frl, but you do think that the people will ashs pier? what now about the past, what do we want to change? >> it's interesting, keir, where we are at this moment where there's more that we don't know. king charles is an incredible advocate for something top of mind for anybody and that's climate change. we've had six months of weather that had everybody a loormed across generation and across

gender and he also might be a man in the moment and an issue and there's more you don't know. katty kay, more demands on your time. thank you so much for doing one more hour with us. >> you bet. >> i want to bring into our conversation michael beschloss, presidential historian. with you, i want to look back with the queen's relationship with our presidents, 14 of them. kristen welker has done an incredible piece of reporting on just that. let's take a look. >> she's danced with presidents, ridden with them, celebrated with commander in chiefs, mourned and of course, shared plenty of meals. queen elizabeth, in fact, meeting every single serving american president except lyndon johnson since 1951. >> harry truman was her first

presidential visit as a 25-year-old princess representing her father, the king during a u.s. visit. ♪♪ ♪ >> she came back in 1957, now as queen. >> i also want to say how much i appreciate the warmth and friendliness of your reception. >> receiving an all-american welcome, a state dinner hosted by president eisenhower and a ticker tape parade in new york. queen elizabeth always appearing to take eager in take part in american traditions and charming the public along the way, watching a baseball game with the first president bush. >> it was great! >> can we see her? >> i mean, she came all of the way from england and it's great. >> it's wonderful. >> a great lady of the world. >> and attending the kentucky dishy during the second bush presidency. >> she's a great race fan, so it's exciting. >> we are just going to go --

>> the other memorable moments with president ford at the white house. a standing ovation when she became the first british monarch to address congress. [ applause ] and president reagan laughing as the queen cracked jokes at a state dinner in san francisco. >> i knew before we came that we had exported many of our traditions to the united states, but i had not realized before that weather was one of them. [ laughter ] >> she got along well with reagan. the two went riding together and these photos becoming iconic, and while the queen last visited the u.s. in 2007, like millions of american tourists, presidents are always ready to stop by the palace when in the uk. >> i am confident that our common values and shared interests will continue to unite us.

it may seem like an unlikely connection given this country's decision to sever ties with the crown, but as queen elizabeth said herself during america's 200th birthday. >> your declaration of independence break that link, but it did not break our friendship. >> a special relationship that only grew stronger during her 07-year reign. kristen welker, nbc news, the white house. michael beschloss, you are joining the conversation under way with viewpoints that certainly span the continents, but tell me what not just the special relationship that rick has put into the wise concepts and what the relationships meant with queen elizabeth with 13 american presidents. >> they were not just friendly with her because they would have been friendly with anyone who was queen of england. it was because the best way of saying it, nicole, she was really a piece of work because

look at it this way. go back to the 1920s and the future, and sudden he the king abdigates in and she becomes queen in 1952 and she has to hold her own with her prime minister winston churchill and presidents like truman and eisenhower and john kennedy and later on ronald reagan and others and the point i'm making is that oftentimes, you and i have said this to each other and that you've really learned it from your time in public life. sometimes we look back on something that happened in history and we think it was inevitable and it is no way inevitable that this woman with wisdom, without a particularly

great education could make herself went frp depression, world war ii. a british empire that included india all of the way up to 2022 where she stays relevant and respected and sought after by all those prime ministers and all those american presidents. it didn't just vice president happen we are an a mazing woman. >> katty kay described her as being near flawless in her public liefr and the one big sepgz was around princess diana. it seemed that most people were able to reconnect with her, to understand what she learned from her mistakes and just talk about her decades on the public stage and her public life. >> that's exactly what i'm

talking about because when she became queen in 1952 divorce persons were not allowed to dine in buckingham palace. look now, there are a lot of tworsed persons in their family. women were told they had to wear long white gloves when they came to dinner with the queen and it was a totally different time, and the fact that she was able to keep ahead of all of this politically and form a connection with so many world leaders and so many programs and also do that with the handicap of the fact, are notes forly always nice to us at every moment of our lives and we learned a lot about human nature and people's motives. for most of her life she only awe the best sides of people because they were on their best

behavior. she was a real person, she was adaptable, and i think it's just a miracle because she happened to be queen for 70 years. >> eugene, a couple of team have remarked this week just representing such incredible change. king charles, most pol grappling with prince charles and a new prime minister. what do you make of this moment? both the challenges and the opportunities. >> first of all, it's just extraordinary that just two days ago she welcomed the new prime minister to balmoral, did herr job just two days before dying. clearly, she must have been in some pain and it must have been difficult to do, but she did her

job. that is remarkable. i think britain will go through this with the sort of a plum that they have for ceremony and commemoration and it's something that the united kingdom does very, very well. this will be choreographed and everything will happen as it's supposed to happen, and i do think we will see an outpouring of grief and sentiment. i -- having been a london bureau chief, i never quite bought -- and the brits were not that stiff upper lip ever as they styled themselves, and so yes,

there will be tears and emotion and then the nation will get through it and then, i believe, king charles will -- there will be a time when he has to prove himself and there will be perhaps a honeymoon period. one thing about king charles is he does have opinion. yes, on climate change he is out front and he is very vocal, and perhaps that will work in his favor. elizabeth did not have any opinions that she shared with the world. of course, she had opinions, but she -- but she did not share them, and the result of that, of course, was that no one could think she disagreed with them because you didn't know what she thought about x or y or z. we know a bit more about what king charles thinks about issues. we know he hates modern architecture. we know he hates climate change.

so we'll see whether his somewhat different persona how that plays in the role of monarch. >> michael beschloss, eugene robinson it is a privilege to talk to you and on a day like today it is a real treat and thank you to both of you for talking with us. the department of justice will file an appeal to judge aileen cannon's order to appoint a special master and what that filing looks like and what it means for the ongoing investigation against donald trump. don't go anywhere. n against dond trump. don't go anywhere. to help keep everyone connected from wherever we go. well at at&t we'll help you find the right wireless plan for you. so, you can stay connected to all your drivers and stores on america's most reliable 5g network. that sounds just paw-fect.

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>> turning now to that big breaking news story we mentioned at the top of the hour. the justice department has filed an appeal to the stunning ruling by judge aileen cannon which appoints an independent arbiter of a so-called special master and something bill barr called a red herring to review the special master seized by the fbi in mar-a-lago one month ago. doj is seeking to block a pardon of that judge's order that temporarily prevents investigators from using the 100 classified documents that were seized from mar-a-lago in its investigation. here's what doj says about those documents. quote, plaintiff, that means donald trump could not assert that he owns or has any possessory interest in classified records, that he has any right of those records returned to him or he have any possible claims of

attorney-client privilege that would bar the government from reviewing or using them. >> joining us now is andrew weissmann, senior member of the special counsel investigation. andrew, i want to really drill down on this because i believe what doj is arguing is this nightmare scenario that judge aileen cannon forced it to stop its review of what damage has been done and the appeal of good idea in your view? >> yes. let me give you, having looked at these, there are actually two documents that have been filed and there's something call a protective appeal and they make a motion to judge cannon in the district court. so what they're doing is in the district court they tell the judge that they want to have her stay a part of her stay. if you remember, she ordered that there could not be a review

of anything that was seized in the search warrant, whether it's classified material or unclassified material. they had to put a full stop to the criminal investigation using those documents. what judge, we need you to rethink a part of that decision. you may have really made an error when it came to anything that is classified, and you called out, as i knew you would, the exact best quote that puts it succinctly, what the argument is. what they also said is, we have filed a protective notice of appeal to the 11th circuit. if there is not a ruling in our favor on this by a week from today, the 15th, we're going forward with our appeal on this issue. so, they've done two things. giving the district court an -- the out, the option of ruling in

their favor and it's a really strong brief. i think this is a much stronger brief, but in some ways, you can't fault the department of justice because it was hard to know just how sort of nutty and off the wall her decision was going to be. but this is a very, very strong brief, saying, how can somebody like donald trump have any interest in -- any possessory interest in classified documents? he can't. they belong, by definition, to the government, not to a private citizen, and those communications don't raise attorney-client privilege, because by definition, classified documents are not communications between donald trump and his lawyers. so, can't raise those issues. so, it's a very, very strong brief, asking her to carve that out, and then they really wrap themselves around an argument that i've been pushing, which is, it's impossible to separate out the national security review from the criminal case.

they're one and the same, and a footnote drop, essentially the point i was thinking of, how is merrick garland and lisa monaco supposed to be involved when they supervise both issues? basically says, judge, you have not worked through just how -- how much you're harming sort of the national security review that you said could go on, and of course, they don't have to say it, but in the background, you know, there's all these reports about just how sensitive the information is that they're talking about. and then the final point, nicole, is i think one thing that's quite interesting here is this really puts it to the trump team. are they going to claim, in a court of law, that these documents were declassified by the president, the former president, when he was president? because one answer to this is for them to say, what are you talking about? there are no classified documents. they might bear "classified"

markings, but those were all declassified. i bet you he doesn't do that because he's not going to want to have that tested in a court of law, of course there are criminal penalties for lying to a federal judge. but i think it really puts a fine point to the trump team, whether they're going to claim these were declassified. >> they say -- and i have to give credit to my team, who pulled that out as this came out right as we were coming on the air, but i want to just try to understand this in non-legal language. what department of justice is arguing is that under no scenario, in no universe, does classified document -- do classified documents, especially the kinds of things we're talking about, an assessment of another nation's nuclear program or powers, doesn't belong to anyone. they are viewed by a country's commander in chief, but under no scenario, declassification or not -- and you're right, they haven't said that he declassified anything, and if they do now, it's more trumpian to sort of tweet it out or truth

social it out, but they're arguing that a classified document would under no circumstance belong to any individual, right? >> absolutely. so, the first argument is, how can this be a motion for return of property because this isn't his property. this belongs to the government, not to him. the second and third arguments are, to the extent, judge, you're concerned that there might be attorney-client privileged information, and that, by the way, is a legitimate concern, that, by definition, is not -- does not include documents that are classified. we're talking about -- if he has attorney-client information, it is communications between donald trump and his private lawyers. that is not, by definition, going to be classified. so, they say, that's off the table as a second concern. and then the third is executive privilege. and they really go to town on

the supreme court, in two separate cases, saying that does not apply here, and it would be completely outweighed by the fact that it's part of a criminal national security investigation. so, they just take apart all of her -- all of this stated rationale. i have to say, i think they do it very, very politely. but the message is clear. this would be -- i think what they're also saying to her is, this would be an extremely strong appeal, and they're giving her an option to change her mind, but they also, then, have put this in the record, including an affidavit from an fbi assistant director, which is extremely high position, talking about how this interferes with the national security review. so, very, very strong filing. it will be really interesting to see whether the judge is really going to follow the rule of law here. they're really giving her an opportunity to do the right thing and to carve these out,

and, you know, we'll see what the defense team says. it will be very interesting, because frankly, the defense team wasn't really going down this road and it was the judge, if you recall, that was sort of reminding them to assert executive privilege, which, you know, is not a good sign for her rethinking her decision, but this basically gives her an opportunity to correct herself. and maybe she isn't worried about the 11th circuit, but you know, this is a very strong filing. >> andrew weissmann, is it written with, like, a 50/50, i hope she says, whoa, and reverts? or is it written to make that appeal to the 11th circuit or both? >> i think it's both. i mean, i think they probably are hoping that it's going to be faster for them, for the department, to have her just change her mind, and i'm hoping -- i assume that they're hoping that she does that, but to me, it's clear that they're

putting this in the record, because they're going to appeal. they do, towards the end, though, ask her to really clarify what she means in terms of the national security review and the fact that she left it so ambiguous as to what would be a violation of her order. so, she may do that, but going down that road, i think, would -- if she's any -- if she is rational, it's going to lead her to realize that she made a mistake. >> andrew weissmann, thank you for standing by and bringing us all of your wisdom and analysis on that story. rick, thank you for being with us this hour. we'll see if you can stick around a little longer. a quick break for us and we'll take another look at the life and legacy of britain's longest-serving monarch, queen elizabeth ii. don't go anywhere. we'll be right back. izabeth ii don't go anywhere. we'll be right back. plain aspirin could be hurting your stomach. vazalore 325 liquid-filled aspirin capsule is clinically shown in a 7 day study to cause fewer ulcers than immediate release aspirin.

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♪♪ ♪ long to reign over us, god save the queen ♪ hi again, everyone, it's 5:00 in new york, 10:00 in london. that was footage from earlier today, a moment of global mourning, but historical significance as well. perhaps like you, we're watching what's happening all across the atlantic. britain's longest-serving monarch, queen elizabeth ii, died today at the age of 96, putting an end to a reign that

spanned quite nearly a third of american history. without exception, in the hours since the world learned of her death, every living american president has honored her memory and her service. their words. "graciousness, stability, serenity, strength, intellect, charm, wit, grace, elegance, and dignity." as we have reported, all four of queen elizabeth's children were at her bedside in her final moments. her son, charles, is now britain's new king, king charles iii. but before we get on with that process of succession, a quick moment for a woman, a leader with such an extensive and unique position and vantage point in world history. here's our nbc news colleague, keir simmons, with that. ♪♪ >> reporter: queen elizabeth ii, great britain's longest-serving monarch, died after living a life dedicated to duty. born in 1926, the third grandchild of king george v,

elizabeth would guide the nation and its monarchy through historic challenges. during the blitz, the royal family stayed in london, despite the nightly bombing raids from nazi germany. to the people of britain, there was this message from their future queen. >> we know every one of us, that in the end, all will be well. for god will care for us and give us victory and peace. >> reporter: that speech sealed a special relationship with her future subjects. westminster abbey, 1953, the first time tv cameras were allowed inside to record a coronation. the celebration was seen worldwide. and elizabeth's reign would be felt worldwide. she was the most widely traveled monarch in history. she helped transform britain's empire, easing former colonies

into states, and all that while balancing motherhood and monarchy. three sons and a daughter. the pomp was there, but circumstances changed. for the first time, the queen opened the royal family to the public eye. she encouraged her children to live lives beyond the palace walls. in some ways, the royal family appeared just like the rest of us, vulnerable. there was divorce and reconciliation. her son, prince andrew, mired in accusations of sexual misconduct. but the tragedy of princess diana was an especially dark moment for the royal family. her fairy tale romance and marriage ended in scandal with a messy divorce and then death. diana killed in a traffic accident in paris, the royal family grieved privately, but there was growing anger in britain that the monarchy was out of touch, detached, and aloof. the queen quickly returned to london from her vacation home to

pay tribute to diana and face m monarchy. >> i, for one, believe there are lessons to be drawn from her life and from the extraordinary and moving reaction to her death. >> reporter: queen elizabeth set out to change the face of monarchy. it would be more open, compassionate, in touch with a changing british public. >> institutions which in turn must continue to evolve if they are to provide effective beacons of trust and unity. >> reporter: she embraced many changes, including the marriage of her grandson, prince william, to commoner kate middleton. and prince harry to the american actress, meghan markle. she celebrated the birth of great-grandchildren, including prince george, third in line to the throne. in 2021, her beloved husband of seven decades, prince philip,

died. in her words, he was her strength and stay. but queen elizabeth continued to inspire people around the world. during the covid pandemic, her words helped everyone to keep calm and carry on. >> this time, we join with all nations across the globe in a common endeavor, using the great advances of science and our instinctive compassion to heal. we will succeed, and that success will belong to every one of us. >> reporter: she was the longest-reigning british monarch in history, on the throne for more than 70 years. her platinum jubilee celebrated with a military parade. beacons lit across the world. >> i keep mine in here. >> a surprise appearance from paddington bear and over ten

million people across britain gathering for street parties to honor their one and only queen. the jubilee concluded with a final wave from queen elizabeth from the balcony of buckingham palace. she was joined by three future kings, prince charles, prince william, and prince george. the crowds, cheering for queen elizabeth ii, a monarch for the ages. keir simmons, nbc news. >> we thank keir simmons for all his incredible reporting today. it's where we start our breaking news coverage. joining us, peter spiegel, former london news editor of the financial times. also joining us, emily nash. rick stengel is still with us. let me start with all of you. i mean, the news some people have been taking this in all day long. now that the news is settling in, peter, what are your thoughts? >> well, i mean, in your piece, i think the most shocking thing that, frankly, in the news room,

the words being uttered, king charles iii. i think a lot of people are beginning to think forward now as opposed to looking backwards, because we've been preparing for the queen to pass on for some time now, and obviously someone in their 90s who we've known in failing health in recent weeks, that isn't a surprise. i think having lived in london for many years, i think we'll be surprised at some of the outpouring of emotion we'll see from the british on this one. 70 years, you have almost all the united kingdom who has lived through her reign, and i think a lot of brits themselves, even my british colleagues here at the ft were surprised at their own emotion they've experienced over the last 12 hours. but i think this issue of what happens to the monarchy under a king charles is a really important and interesting one. a lot of my british colleagues are a bit concerned that charles is less unifying figure than his mother was, and what is the future of the monarchy under

charles, who is seen much more out of touch and less popular in the uk than the queen was. that, to me, is the most interesting story going forward. can he transfer some of the admiration and love, frankly, that his mother had, nationwide, and frankly, throughout the world, for a new monarch who frankly has just never been that popular in the uk. and i think that's something we're going to watch very closely. >> i want to dig into that with you in a second. that is really interesting. emily nash, tell me where your thoughts are now that the news has had time to sink in. >> yeah, it's taken some time, really, to sink in here. i think we knew this moment was coming. earlier today, there were suggestions that this might be about to happen. but it's still, after all this time, has come as a huge shock to people in the uk. people, you know, have this image of the queen ingrained so

deeply in our psyche, it's going to be incredibly hard over the coming days, and as peter said, the notion of king charles iii, we're going to have different stamps, different coins, different bank notes. it's a lot to people to get their heads around, and i think in the coming days, we're going to see a huge outpouring of grief. >> rick, i know you're skeptical about some of the traditions, but pretty clear-eyed about her contributions in the name of service. just pick up on peter's point about what's ahead. it's something that we heard from katty kay and keir, that the future is a lot less clear. >> that's the big question. just watching the newsreel, it felt like finally the 20th century is over. she lived through all of the great events of the 20th century, and she was a model of continuity. she's an impossible act to follow, so the point about charles, who was never very popular, who's been waiting for decade after decade, how does he fill her high heels, as it were,

and it's kind of an impossible task. if i were advising him, i would say, just keep a low profile, because you could have people in britain, they call them republicans, small "r" republicans, who have been against the monarchy, who don't like the taxes that pay for them, this would be an opportunity, if i was on that side, like, let's go after that. and as eugene said earlier, in the old british colonies, still, australia, canada, people might say, well, you know, the queen is dead, we can -- we don't need to have this symbolism anymore. we can't have her as head of state. so, i think there will be a lot of challenges, and if charles was smart, he'd reckon with them. >> peter, you put these issues on the table. how do you think charles will reckon with them, king charles? >> i think richard's probably right, but i'm not sure he's going to have the luxury of being low profile. the whole job is showing up and being present. and the fact of the matter is, he's never been much of a shrinking violet and that's been part of his problem. he's much more willing than the queen to insert himself into

issues of the day, and frankly, give him credit, sometimes before his time. i mean, he was an environmentalist 30 years ago when environmentalism was not a cool thing to do. he was into homeopathy and some of these other things that were seen as weird and strange in the '90s and '80s, where today he's much more in the mainstream. but again, to richard's point, i'm not sure he'll have the opportunity to lay low. he's also right. if australia, particularly, there's always been a strong republican movement to get rid of the monarch, the british monarch, as the head of state. less so in canada, but he's going to have to deal with that. the other thing we'll see in the uk, i expect the republican movement in the uk, we're not going to see the end of the monarchy, but we've seen in other royal houses in europe, the dutch, the belgians, real shrinking of those houses. so not the big, lavish estates and the multigenerational support for various family members. could we see a shrinking of the royal family, of who is supported by the taxpayers?

you know, the british royal family used to refer to the dutch, for instance, derisively assort of royal on bicycles. they don't want to modernize that much. but they may have to at some point because you're going to get a new generation. i think the queen gets a lot of credit for, quote, unquote, modernizing the monarchy, but only so far that a nonogenarian can do. there's going to be pressure on charles and the younger royals to be more modern, maybe akin to the dutch and the belgians and others who have been much more modernizing than the british. >> emily, what does that look like for william and kate and maybe harry and meghan? >> it's an incredibly sad time for them at the moment, but we know that william and kate have been preparing to step up for some time, and as peter suggested there, it's an uphill struggle for charles. let's not forget, his mother was in her 20s, young, glamorous, when he came to the throne. he's an older person, his opinions are well known. likewise, william, kate, we know

a lot more about. they've been more open about their families. but i think that's a strength, and you know, the fact that the queen had them there all at the balcony at the end of the platinum jubilee celebrations really spoke volumes about her presenting the future of the monarchy. and of course, she backed charles and camila back in 2020, urging people to support them as they had supported her throughout her lifetime. so, you know, it could be that there's a ground swell of support for him in light of everything that's happened. >> you know, for me, and i don't know if you feel this way too, rick, but having worked for politicians, i want to analyze charles through a politician's lens, and i think i used this term the last hour, that in the room, he guess incredibly high marks. i worked for former president bush, who met him and enjoyed him very much, and enjoyed camilla very much, but peter and emily are talking about the lens

and the brand and the need to modernize. i mean, how do you sort of analyze charles as perhaps maybe a transitional figure? >> i think, at best, he's a transitional figure. remember, there was a lot of discussion for years with the queen preempt charles and make william king after her? that would have been a much easier ritual, because he's modern, he's young, he's a real contrast. i mean, charles is an old guy, even the contrast between him and his mother doesn't seem that great. yeah. i don't know how he can lay low, and as peter said, he's always been outspoken, and that hasn't always been in his favor. i'm not sure that's something that the british people actually want to hear now. >> peter, the point's been made that times changed. i mean, 70 years, not much didn't change. but this is a modern family. charles is divorced, camilla is his second wife. what is the impact or the power, perhaps, to sort of showcase a

modern family here in the monarchy? certainly not what was envisioned. >> that is what modernizing forces within the royal family have been pushing for some time, and there's been a lot of resistance within the family, within the household in particular. remember this. you showed in your segment just before we led in here, the pressure over princess diana where the queen did not want to go on television and talk about it, and this is something she was forced into doing. you mentioned something that's important, the role she played during the war. and as rick said, it's almost like the 20th century ended but the fact that she stayed in london, the family stayed in london, she served as a driver and a mechanic during the war, and so she always will have -- always had that sort of commonality with the british people that she was -- she suffered in the blitz along with everyone else, and that is some of the source of her popularity. charles never really had that. he went to the fancy schools and

never had that common touch. the difference, as you mentioned, is with william. william married a commoner in kate middleton, went to school, universities, with other commoners, and so he does have that more, you know, a popular support because he's seen as more of the people. and rick said, charles is almost 74. he is, by far, the oldest man to -- or oldest monarch to take the throne. i think the next oldest, i checked before we came on air, was in his early 60s, so we're talking almost a decade older than any other british monarch to take the throne, so he is an old man, and i do think he is, for good or ill, going to be a transitional figure, because unless he lives as long as his mother, his reign will be relatively short, and i think we'll see the modernization happen under william because i'm not sure a 74-year-old man is going to be the face of a modernizing royal family. but you're right in that they have suffered a lot of the same issues that many families in

britain, in the u.s. have. it has humanized the royal family to a certain extent, and they've been much more accepting. remember, the reason that elizabeth's father, george vi, came to the throne is because his brother was forced to abdicate for marrying a woman who is divorced and that is now common place in the royal family, common place in our societies and just in that one lifetime, attitudes toward the royal family have changed immensely, and i think we'll likely see an equal change if and when william takes the throne but probably not under charles. >> it strikes me that the reason all of their sort of public and private details of their lives is part of what is in the conversation is because from birth, they live in the public eye. and it makes it all fair game for these conversations, but i wonder what your thoughts are about charles today, grieving the loss of his mother, about william and harry grieving the loss of their grandmother, and

all of elizabeth's children suffering the loss of someone who, to them, was a mother and grandmother. >> i think you're absolutely right. it's a really emotional moment for a family that doesn't traditionally display a lot of emotion, and i imagine we will see that in the coming days. you know, most people in this country have seen the queen as almost a grandmother figure, so whatever we're feeling, it will be magnified thousands of times for the members of her family. and for many people as well, you know, as peter said, she really evoked that wartime generation, which is irreplaceable, and reminds so many people of loved ones that they've lost, so you know, there's so much symbolism around her passing. >> peter spiegel and emily nash, thank you so much for starting off our coverage this hour. rick sticks around. when we come back, throughout every moment in recent world history, going back as we've been discussing to world war ii, queen elizabeth

was a steadying presence for britain and for many people around the world. our friend and colleague, john meechum, will be our next guest on that. later in the hour for us, we're going to shift gears again to that other big breaking news of the day. the justice department will appeal the ruling to appoint a special master in connection with the search of mar-a-lago. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break.

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♪♪ it is unfortunate that there are so many troubles facing the

world today. but we are encouraged that in most respects, our two countries see these problems in the same light. for this reason, we have been able to act together in fields as varied as science, research, and higher education. to find solutions or to at least make progress towards tackling so many of the social and economic difficulties that confront nations in all parts of the globe. >> that was queen elizabeth with then president obama. if the death of queen elizabeth today feels like more than just the death of a monarch, it's because it is also the loss of a witness to history. a steady presence in the lives of britons from her time serving her country as a mechanic in world war ii. she outlasted presidents and prime ministers. during the last 70 years, she was a steward of her country.

her last official act was ushering in a new prime minister two days ago, the 15th of her reign. joining us now, presidential historian john meechum. john, i've been dying for an hour and a half now to hear your thoughts on this day and why, as rick stengel said, why it feels like such a big deal to us. >> well, born in the roaring '20s, her trajectory of her life was shifted during the great depression when her uncle abdicated, thereby putting her in line for the throne. she was 14 years old, almost exactly 82 years ago, nearly to the day, i think it was in october, when she addressed the nation for the first time, and i urge people to go read that broadcast. she talks about the danger and sadness of war. it was on children's hour on bbc. she endured the war in london

when the luftwafa was bombing for 57 days and nights, london and its -- and several other cities in britain. she becomes queen in the midst of the -- at the beginning of the cold war, and then presides over the tumultuous decades since. and so, in many ways, she's an embodiment of ups and downs, and was she a particularly active participant in public affairs, pulling this string and that string? not so far as we know. but that is not necessary to become an emblem, a symbol of something, which is, i think, what folks are mourning here. people say, oh, she's beloved and she was so warm. well, presumably. most of us don't know exactly, let's be honest. but what she did do is she

embodied that walter badget definition of monarchy, the 19th century writer who talked about the english constitution as being partly efficient, that's what the prime minister is for, and then partly dignified, and that the dignified element of government, embodied in the monarch, and of course that's one of the reasons america's so much more complicated is we put the two together. but she was able to handle the dignity part, and she did it pretty flawlessly. >> john meechum, her son, king charles iii, takes over. what are your thoughts about him today? >> well, i think it will be -- it's always fascinating to see whether his constitution -- his sense of constitutional monarchy will be hers. he is a thoughtful activist, thinks a lot about climate, a lot about health, a lot about

the environment. the definition of the job is not to be particularly active on certain issues, and so that, i suspect, will create some tensions if not in the government, at least in him. imagine spending 73 years waiting to get to a job where your job is not to talk. right? i mean, that's what this is. your task is to be and not do, although by being, you are doing. and it's really, at the risk of total self-parody, it's a theological office, a sacred office. he will go through a coronation where he becomes, essentially, in the theology of the crown, a human agent of the divine. someone in part of an order that -- a very hierarchical

order, and it's one of the reasons i always thought the talk about, oh, well, shouldn't elizabeth abdicate, and let william do it, you know, all of that, that is a fundamental misunderstanding of the theology, the mythology, that they breathe, which is that god has put them in this place to do this duty, and they're going to do it until they are called home. as her majesty was today. >> john meechum, do you think that the british people still see it exactly as you've described? is it still of the moment for the people? >> i think -- look at the crowds, right? i think -- >> but are they for her, or are they there for the monarchy? >> i don't know. but they wouldn't know her if she hadn't been the monarch. you have to ask each and every one of them. is somehow or another her majesty's death the end of the house of windsor and the end of

monarchy? i have no idea, and nobody -- neither does anybody else. what is true is that for over a thousand years, this island kingdom, which has played outsize role in the history of the world, look at the language you and i are speaking, right? we're on a continent that was not part of their ethos until they, you know, the colonization, and so immensely powerful. the cliche would be, it always punched above its weight. and it's always done so with enormous issues of colonization and human rights. but the anglo-american tradition has, by and large, managed to produce more liberty and a tradition, i think, of individual initiative. and the monarchy has been part of that. they've threaded a needle here. you wouldn't -- you and i wouldn't have bet, would we, a

hundred years ago, when elizabeth was born, coming out of world war i, when houses were falling, the bolshevik revolution had just occurred, the austrian-hungarian empire had fallen. nationalism on the rise. a hundred years ago, crowns were falling. and yet, this british version of it found a way to be a symbol and to endure. and so, i wouldn't bet against it. >> john, last thing i want to ask you about is, you know, the -- william and kate and harry and meghan. you know, if their dad, king charles -- keir had a hard time switching up from prince to king -- he certainly has some family members that live and seem very cognizant of the modern cross pressures, modern issues. what are your thoughts about the role that william and kate and

harry and meghan might play in the future? >> well, i think part of the durability -- to go to both questions, i think part of the durability has been that -- and prince albert, victoria's husband, was kind of an architect of this. he knew that the monarchy could not dwell entirely apart from the people. it had to be representative. people had to be able to relate to it, as crazy as that seems. and so, you know, i went through the noble chapters of her life, which are, in fact, noble, but she also, queen elizabeth, also represents, and her story tells us about the rise of tabloid news, tells us about dysfunctional family. a lot of tragedy, a lot of tension. don't know about your family, but i have some experience with that. i think most of us do. and so, one of the things the monarchy does is it doesn't just

make manners and morals, it also just mirrors them. so, seems to me that perhaps, perhaps, those tensions that you're describing may, in fact, humanize the institution and make people at least be interested in it. how does all this play out? you know, this is a family, but we know about them because of their -- the circumstances of their birth, and the great thing queen elizabeth did, and this is now on king charles, is she made that claim of birth legitimate by serving. so, it's a covenant. right? so, she's there, one of the -- if not the richest woman in the world. she's there because of her birth. but she always did her duty as it was defined. despite everything else. and i think that will be the test for the new king.

>> john meechum, great to get to hear your thoughts today. thank you so much for spending some time with us. switching gears completely for us here at the table, back to the breaking news out of the merrick garland justice department. doj is appealing that decision to appoint a special master in connection to the search of mar-a-lago. where the investigation goes from here is our next story after a very short break. don't go anywhere. stt ory after a very short break don't go anywhere. was holding. but asthma has taken enough. so i go triple... with trelegy. with 3 medicines in 1 inhaler,... it's the only once-daily treatment for adults that takes triple action against asthma symptoms. trelegy helps make breathing easier,... improves lung function,... and lasts for 24 hours. go triple... go trelegy. because asthma has taken enough. trelegy won't replace a rescue inhaler... for sudden breathing problems. trelegy contains a medicine that increases risk of hospitalizations and death from asthma problems when used alone.

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we return to that breaking news story we told you about at the top of the show. the department of justice officially filed a notice this afternoon saying this, it intends to appeal a federal judge's ruling that was in favor of the disgraced ex-president, who appointed her, to allow a special master to sift through the documents seized at mar-a-lago. doj has opposed the idea of a so-called special master's involvement ever since it was requested by the ex-president in a sort of spaghetti on the wall-like legal maneuver. their argument, it could harm national security interests, delay an active criminal investigation, and the department has argued that it already completed a review with a filter team in place of the documents seized anyway. joining our coverage, chuck rosenberg, former u.s. attorney who worked on the staffs of both robert mueller and james comey at the fbi. mike schmidt, "new york times" washington correspondent. rick doing double duty today is still with us. chuck rosenberg, i start with you.

andrew weissmann in the last hour described this brief as very strongly articulating the damage to national security that judge aileen cannon's ruling would do. is that what leaps out at you? take us through what strikes you. >> i thought it was a brilliant motion, nicole. they did a couple of things. and it made me smile, because i remember sitting at the department of justice surrounded by attorneys, all of whom were smarter than me, coming up with ideas like they included in this motion. so, what they basically told the judge is, a, we're going to appeal, and b, we want you to stay the worst part of your order and then in great detail, they explained what the worst part of her order was and why it was so bad, and it was simply this. judge, when you told us we could do a damage assessment, we could let the intelligence community look at the documents that might have been compromised, and they could figure out how much harm was caused, at the same time,

you told us that we can't continue the criminal investigation, but judge, the fbi is part of the intelligence community, and criminal investigations inform the damage assessments, and so you've drawn this artificial distinction between the two that makes our job not just hard but impossible. and it's a huge mistake. and, so, judge, and all this was done respectfully and professionally and lawfully, we want you to stay that part of the order. we want you to pause that part of your order, because it makes absolutely no sense, and if you don't pause that part of your order by next week, we're going to seek emergency relief from the 11th circuit on that part of the order, and we're also going to appeal. i thought it was extraordinarily well done. >> so, mike, the former attorney general, bill barr, has called the entire legal strategy being employed by the ex-president a red herring, a ruse. he's repeatedly used public

appearances on fox news, no less, to point to the strength of the government's case. and this ruling by judge cannon seemed to go farther than even the ex-president's ad hoc legal team was seeking to go. the justice department, today, takes aim at the idea that anyone, even an ex-president, could possess classified documents. how important does that seem to be in terms of a principle, really, of the justice department? >> well, it's actually, i think, an incredibly important principle to trump. so, the reason that trump was able to not get himself into true criminal trouble, to get, you know, accused of breaking the law by the justice department when he was president, or -- and was because he was president of the united states, because he controlled the justice department. and we have seen, since he left office, that investigating him as a former president, the

justice department investigating him as a former president, is an easier thing to do. obviously, if bill barr was running trump's justice department, they wouldn't have executed a search warrant at mar-a-lago, even if they were concerned about classified documents. but what we see is that the remnants of the presidency continue to help him, and they helped him in this sense, because they gave the judge, you know, enough to rule in his favor, and it is -- the fact that his powers as president were braided together with his actions that made investigating him and the justice department trying to hold him accountable all the more difficult. and this is a remnant of that, and he has exploited that. he exploited it at president, as a delay tactic in using different privilege claims and such over, you know, embarrassing information about himself. many presidents have done that. but he was able to, for however

long this stands, get himself some time. >> well, and i think critics of the last person to run the justice department would say that he operated as above the law and bill barr helped him do so, which is what makes bill barr an interesting commentator on the story and an interesting critic of judge cannon, who was, again, appointed by donald trump, and what's extraordinary about her in today's filing, it would appear, is that doj is calling b.s., not a word i think chuck rosenberg would use, but they're calling b.s. on the idea that anyone, including an ex-president, possesses classified documents, and it is hard -- they're saying, judge, what you said you wanted to do, which was allow this national security effort to go on, you can't do. you can't do that if your ruling stands. what is your sense of this balance that doj seems to be trying to strike? >> well, as chuck mentioned and andrew said earlier, the brief is very polite and respectful. between the lines, one of the

things they're saying is, judge, you don't really understand the complexities of how classified material work or the chain of custody of classified documents. when you make a distinction between the dni investigation versus the fbi and the justice department, they're all working together. it actually puts me in mind of something that has befuddled me since the beginning of this. i don't even understand how it happens that someone brought, in his office, this classified material, much more secret than top secret sci. when that happens, there's a chain of custody. somebody's holding the document. they're clocking how long they have it. they stand there while the president or whoever reads it, and then they take it because it's like the crown jewels. how does this particular document get into mar-a-lago with or without a cover folder? it cannot be incompetence. it cannot be carelessness. that requires actual planning, smuggling, purloining that document. i don't even know how that happens. i would love the justice

department to get to the bottom of that. >> well, chuck, jump in and save me from myself if i get this wrong, but i think that we've seen some windows into what the justice department believes has gone on, and that is that after 11 months of the national archives trying to get -- everyone has known exactly what's gone missing since the day it went missing, because everyone knows the chain of custody and the eyes on all these documents, the whole time. but where this seems to have fallen apart is that those polite interactions with the national archives turned into slightly more intense conversations with the fbi and then a grand jury subpoena that was defied by donald trump and then he lied. and this seems to be where perhaps he's in the most criminal trouble, not just that he hoarded these documents that have gone missing now for 18 months, but that he lied about it. >> you're right. nicole, the polite interactions didn't work, and by the way, i think it was appropriate to extend that to a former president, to any former president. the grand jury subpoena didn't

work. the search warrant certainly worked, but we still don't know if we got everything back, because there's a bunch of empty folders. to rick's point, i agree with rick that in any normal, high-functioning white house, there would be a chain of custody on all of these documents. they would be clocked in and clocked out just like rick said, completely agree. but i think where incompetence is a possible answer, and it seems to always be a possible answer with respect to the trump white house, they could have lost track of a whole bunch of stuff. i'm not sure it's innocent. in fact, i'm leaning heavily towards, it's completely nefarious. but incompetence is always a possible answer, and there's one other thing i want to add, nicole, if you don't mind. one of the things i loved about the government's motion about their brief today is they made it abundantly clear that whatever executive privilege may exist for a former president, it

does not exist here and now. it doesn't exist when there's a grand jury investigation. the nixon case from 1974 tells us that. it certainly doesn't exist where the former president has absolutely no personal or proprietary interest in the material that's been classified. it's not his under any circumstances ever. we give it to him to read while he's president. he doesn't have a clearance now. he's not the president. he has no interest in that stuff. and so, executive privilege can't possibly attach, and that's where the department of justice politely has told the judge that she's made a big mistake and they've given her a chance to fix it. i think they've really crafted a very, very clever strategy, and i mean that in the best sense of the word. they've given her a chance to avoid being embarrassed in the 11th circuit. now the question is, will she take that? >> chuck, i want to follow up

and ask you just what you're getting at. what happens next? it seems that what you're saying, and what mike has pointed out, is that they've given this judge some space to say, you said you wanted the national security equities to proceed. they can't. so, we'll give you a minute to rethink this. if you don't, we're going to the 11th circuit. what are the chances of success in either endeavor, to get judge aileen cannon to reconsider and/or at the 11th circuit? >> that's a great question, nicole. district judges hate two things. they hate being told they're wrong by prosecutors, and they hate being told they're wrong by appellate judges. and i think she runs the risk of being told she's wrong by both. so, what happens next? i'm not sure, but here's what i hope happens next. she reconsiders that part of her order that precludes the fbi from continuing its counterintelligence investigation and assisting the director of national

intelligence in the damage assessment. i hope she reconsiders that. she can do it pretty easily and pretty quickly with the stroke of a pen. then, you know, you have an interesting question, if she does sort of hold that part of her order in abeyance, you have an interesting question in front of the 11th circuit where the united states is going to prosecute its appeal about the rest of her order. i think that's a bit of a closer call. i imagine the 11th circuit wants to give its district court judges, the trial court judges that sit below them, some leeway to manage their docket and manage their courtroom and appoint a special master if they think it's appropriate. but i can't imagine, nicole, under any circumstance, that her order prohibiting the fbi from conducting a counterintelligence investigation and a criminal investigation and assisting in a damage assessment, will hold up. she got that part wrong.

she has the chance to fix it. if she doesn't fix it, i imagine the 11th circuit is going to fix it for her. >> the "times" has an incredible piece of reporting about everything in front of merrick garland and lisa monaco as it pertains to donald trump. you talk about the protections from which he benefitted.

you have had his members in before the grand jury to testify about the efforts to overturn the election. you have this new disclosure out today about an investigation into how the fundraising was done by the pac and what went on there. we have the mar-a-lago documents issue. you know, those being the three -- >> that we know about. >> that we know about, we know that obviously grand jury subpoenas have been used or were tried to be used in the mar-a-lago raid. they went far enough to actually use a search warrant. these are very different issues, all of which he's in. especially at a time his own lawyers are coming under scrutiny. he's constantly trying to find new lawyers to represent him and

as we saw, the leader's own conduct has been called in question. >> his lawyer is facing scrutiny and question in turning over the documents and the location. it's a wonder who takes those jobs. we're going to ask you all to stick around. there was an indictment in trump world. it was steve bannon and he was charged in new york. he defrauded trump supporters by millions of dollars that they can help build trump's border wall. that's next.

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steve bannon was indicted in new york today. the long-time trump wing man should we call him? ally? now faces very serious state charges relating to what prosecutors say was a multi-million dollar scheme to defraud thousands of trump voters, trump supporters across our country who thought they were helping to fund the u.s./mexico border wall. steve bannon surrendered to felony charges of money laundering, conspiracy and scheming to defraud. all of it echoing the very same or very similar allegations he was indicted for in 2020 by federal prosecutors and pardoned for by donald trump. unfortunately for bannon, presidential pardons do not extend to state charges. they only apply to federal ones. we're back. chuck, let me ask you about what each of these charges could cost steve bannon. it seems like it adds up to many

years in prison should he be found guilty. >> yeah, if convicted of the most serious charges here, nicole, and sentenced to imprisonment, 5 to 15 years is the range i've been hearing. you know, this is an incredibly crass scheme, brazen might be a better word for it, but it's also a garden variety fraud. if i told you give me money and i would invest it new and i didn't do that, i spent it on other people and myself, that's a crime. that's essentially what this is. let's not over complicate it. it's a garden variety fraud. he made promises and he didn't keep them. >> it's also like the most trump kind of way to go to jail. trump was going to build a wall, then he was going to build the wall as the country's president chief executive then of course he gets his supporters to pay for the wall and steve bannon steals all the money. this was precisely -- i remember reading, reporting that this was a hard fought for pardon on the

part of steve bannon. there was some knowledge that if he went down he would go down hard. he now faces those same charges in new york? >> look, you know, who -- look at the people around trump who were instrumental in helping around january 6th. mike flynn, rudy giuliani and steve bannon. >> yeah. >> and roger stone. three of the four received some form of clemency. trump's -- you know, was able to bring bannon, someone who had been ostracized from trump's world around the election and he served as someone that helped galvanize his supporters out in the open. i know we spent a lot of time looking for the secret plans, but bannon says it all out loud in the lead up to january 6th. all important parts. stone, flynn, bannon in what

goes on there. and yet another example of a power that trump had, the power -- the clemency powers that he was able to use to his advantage when he was in office and that he does not have any longer. >> i asked congressman adam schiff, he's interested in knowing what all three of those men offered to donald trump for their pardons. he said, of course we are. it's not clear we'll ever know, but if steve bannon is heading to jail, i wonder if you think he'll remain as stalwart in his support for the insurrection? >> well, he has a lot of potential material on donald trump. trump knows that. but the thing that just -- it reminds me as mike was talking, the gryft was everything. there was absolutely not even one iota of any kind of concern and they just used their time in office to figure out how to better their nest afterwards. >> it's also such an important

piece of the story of the trump supporter, that trump was never going to build the wall with government funds. he needed his supporters to pay for the wall while he was president. it's incredible on every level. chuck, rick, thank you for spending time with us. thanks to all of you letting us in your homes. the beat with ari melber starts right now. hi, ari. >> hi, nicole. welcome to the beat, everyone. i am ari melber. on tonight's broadcast, the death of queen elizabeth ii, she was 96 years ole. we will be reporting on her life, her legacy and her ties to the united states and why this is such a large global story. also other news here at home, the justice department is formally appealing a formal judge's decision that went against the garland doj that requires the appointment of a special master to review the documents seized from donald trump's mar-a-lago property. that is a big development in that clash.