noted by a service circuit, this is the narrow, narrow, appeal that they have noticed. miriam, that was really great, thank you very much. >> thank you for having me. >> that is all in on this thursday night, alex wagner tonight starts right now. good evening, alex. night good evening, chris, 610 troubled 11 circuit. >> that is, right there really focused on that one. >> something the doj is not lost on the doj. >> not lost on them, absolutely. >> thank you my friend, great show. >> thank you. >> thank you to you at home for joining us tonight. it was called the children's our. it aired from five to 6 pm on the bbc radio every weekday from 1922 all the way until 1964. in 1940, at the height of the blitz, when germany bomb london every night as nazi bombs fell over the city of london, the bbc's children our decided to hold a special broadcast that would air not just in the united kingdom, but across the commonwealth and in the united

states as well. it was a message to all of the children of the british empire and beyond who had fled their homes for far off places to seek safety and shelter. and it was delivered by a fellow child, the very first radio address of then 14 year old princess elizabeth. >> her royal highness, princess elizabeth. >> in wishing you all good evening, i feel that i am speaking to friends and companions who have shared with my sister and myself many a happy children's hour. thousands of you in this country have had to leave your homes and be separated from your fathers and mothers. my sister margaret rose and i feel so much for you. i can truthfully say to you all that we children at home are full of cheerfulness and courage.

we are trying to do all that we can to help our gallant sailors, soldiers and airmen. and we are trying to to bear our own share of the danger and sadness of war. princess elizabeth made good on those commitments to help them in the war effort. when she turned 18 and the war was still raging, she joined the auxiliary territorial service as a mechanic. stayed in that service through the end of the war. an american news crew caught up with the princess during the war on her 19th birthday. >> on her 19th birthday, the heiress presumptive to england's throne burns a few facts about tires and carburetor's. elizabeth is in the 80 s or british -- and at the kings request, is being treated just like any other trainee. now, visited by her parents and sister margaret rose at her training system and southern

england, she shows them she knows -- all right. and isn't afraid to get her hands dirty. >> when the war finally come to an end, princess elizabeth had gone from a child to a young adult, stepping into her role as a member of one of the world's most powerful families. in 1947, she took her first overseas journey, accompanying her parents on a trip through southern africa. it was a first adventure of a young woman who would grow up to become one of england's most powerful tech monarchs. in 1952, prince elizabeth was traveling to nairobi, kenya, when she got the news that would change her life forever. she was staying in what was effectively a tree house. a tree tops hotel, when she got the news that her father, the king, had died, and she had just become the queen of england. she was 25 years old. diplomats and politician harold nicholson, he wrote in his diary at the time, she became a queen while in a perch, in a tree in africa. watching that rhinoceros come down to the pool to drink.

her coronation took place the next year. it was the first ever coronation of a british monarch to feature live television broadcasts from within westminster abby. it was watched lived by more than 20 million people in the uk. and it was re-broadcast in the u.s. to an audience of over 85 million. >> the ceremony ten centuries old was repeated in london today, as the british commonwealth and people crowned their queen, elizabeth the second, with ancient pomp, religious solemnity. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> people watch from the railing, as the, peers including -- replaced their cornice. the moment of the coronation, the most powerful ceremony of the century, it's now history. >> early in her, rain queen elizabeth made it clear that she would not watch history pastor by from the confines of buckingham palace she began traveling. first, across the british

commonwealth. then, the world. she saw iran under the shot before the iranian revolution. she met with leaders of india from gandhi to -- with the lone exception of lyndon johnson, every american president from truman to biden met queen elizabeth. and her meetings and journeys were more than just sightseeing or photo ops. queen elizabeth spent most of her life as the monarch of an empire in decline. a wants to nominate colonial power that was just beginning to walk in with its brutal centuries long history of subjugation, as new global powers were starting to shape the world order. during her 70-year reign, queen elizabeth would oversee almost all of the unwinding of british colonialism that took place in the 20th and 21st century is. from the followed over the partition of india, which happened just years before she ascended the throne. to barbados declaring itself a republic and taking the queen off of its money, which took place just last year. she watched as the world's changed, and our country's

place in the world changed with it. queen elizabeth died today at the age of 96. joining us live now from edinburgh, scotland, is nbc news correspondent kylie cobiella, kelly, thank you for joining us this hour. i know on some level this is a very planned for a moment for the uk. yet, i am sure that it is taken the populist by surprise in some certain way. what can you tell us about the mood on the ground where you are? >> well, i think that's right alex. after all, the queen was 96 years old. we know she had health problems over the last years. but -- still, a country where most of the population is only ever known one monarch. it is difficult to prepare for a moment like this, psychologically, as a country. we saw, even before the death

announcement was made, people gathering at the palace here in scotland. also, in london. at buckingham palace. waiting for more news about the queen. hoping, perhaps, that it wasn't the worst-case scenario. but then, hearing by 6:30 this evening that in fact, local time, that the queen had in fact died. the first hint that something wasn't right, that this was serious came at about half past noon here local time. when buckingham palace released a statement saying that the queens doctors were concerned for her majesty's health. those kinds of statements just don't come out of the palace every day. they are very guarded when it comes to the monarch's health. so that really was the first hint that this was extremely serious. and again, by 6:30 in the evening, the whole country knew that the queen had died and a

king had taken her place. king charles, her oldest son. alex? >> kelly, i think the other bit that is surprising about this is not just that this is a monarch who was incredibly hailed, right. she is 96 years old, she had a very busy schedule. but on tuesday, she welcomed a new prime minister, inviting liz truss into form a government. that is tuesday, that is literally two days ago. do we know anything about what her last few days, i guess her last 48 hours, were like? potentially what she felt ill within this last stage? >> yeah, well we saw her in that picture, didn't we, with lustrous. she is smiling broadly. she is using a cane. but that is nothing new. we have seen that over the past several months. really since october, november, of last year. off and on. that wasn't necessarily a red flag. she has looked more frail, thinner, somehow smaller for a

lack of a better word over the past few months. really, when it comes to the details of her health, and what she might have been suffering with, if anything, the only thing the palace has said is that she has had episodic mobility issues. they haven't gone into any more details, quite frankly, i am not sure that they will. again, they have always been very guarded when it comes to the monarch's health. we do know, though, that after that picture was taken, the following day, on wednesday, yesterday, the queen canceled a virtual meeting. these are things, events, that she holds often. or has held often in the past year. the fact that she canceled a virtual meeting, that her doctors said she needed to rest after the exertion of tuesday. also probably a sign that she wasn't quite herself. somehow, she had taken a turn for the worse. again, alex, in terms of detail

about what she might have been suffering with, if anything, i'm just not sure if we will get that from the palace. at least not in the next few days. >> kelly, you mentioned, one of the other headlines out of this. england now has a king. which it has not had for quite some time, king charles. what do we know about the changing in titles, specifically as it concerns harry and meghan's children, prince archie and princess lilibet. i want to make sure to get those titles white because there is been a lot of back and forth over who has what titles and whether they want those titles and whether they will have those titles. >> right, so this one's a little bit complicated. it has to do with the intricacies of the monarchy, and the constitutional monarchy here, and the tradition. typically, traditionally, if you are the grandson of -- or grand daughter of a monarch, then you are automatically

titled you are allowed to have a title, it sort of comes to you. however, if you are a great grandchild, that is not automatic however, king charles, it is hard to get that out, i almost said prince. it is a new thing here. >> [laughs] >> king charles has talked, about four years, that he wants to streamline the monarchy. he has been given the power and encouragement to do that by the queen over the past several years. . so the question now is, will looking charles consult with harry and meghan? they said at the beginning, when the children were born, but they didn't necessarily want titles. they are no longer working royals. they are not part of the system in that way. would it be appropriate, i guess, that king charles has to consider for those two grandchildren to have titles? given that he has wanted to streamline the monarchy.

given that harry and meghan are pushing out into a completely different role. this one is still up into the air. it's not necessarily automatic. >> kelly cobiella, nbc news correspondent joining us from edinburgh tonight, kelly, thank you so much for staying up for us. now, i want to turn to lyndon, khalil historian at princeton university, an expert on british imperial and global history. professor, thanks for joining us. we have a lot to talk to, talk about, and speak to as it were. when we talk about the life of queen elizabeth. i wanted to start this show playing the sound of her as a 14 year old, addressing the nation in 1940, as the nazis are fighting the british and the allied forces. just to underscore the sort of moral uprightness, the stiff upper lip, that she was, i think, blessed with in many ways. from such a young age. it seems like, you know, in

very much elizabeth character, it was forged in wartime. she carry that throughout her life. is that an accurate assessment? >> yeah, i think so. i mean, i am not a natural monarchist. but i always respect people who are ultra professionals who give 100 and 10% of their lives do their job. if you are going to have a constitutional monarch, then it's difficult to think of anyone doing it better than elizabeth the second. i suspect she was sustained by a considerable sense of religious duty. she worked really hard. she also never said what she sought, which is a great strength for a constitutional monarch. >> i mean, i think rebecca meet in the new yorker makes the point of how few words she left

us within many ways. right? i mean, for such a prominent public personages, elizabeth leaves behind remarkably few memorable words, so careful what she with avoiding the off the cuff remark, and so sparing what she with her public voice, apart from her regular christmas greeting, broadcast on television the poster showers every december 25th, she addressed the nation in her own words only a handful of time during her reign. usually at a moment of crisis or sorrow or, every so often, of celebration. it is so strange when you think about the outside role she plays in the global advantage a nation, there are actually no particular lines that we recall her saying. it is just that sort of steely presents. >> yeah, but as you have made clear in the program this evening, she is able to profit from the spread of tv. from the expansion of all new kinds of photography. she must have been the most

photographed person ever in human history. if anyone on the globe knows a bit about the world, i suspect they have seen the face of queen elizabeth. the fact that she didn't talk much, of course, was a great strength. not only did she avoid embarrassment, but because she didn't say much, people could impose on her their own ideas and expectations and fantasies. so she was a global figure. not just a uk monarch, to, i think, a quite marketable degree. >> when we talk about the times that she navigated, in addition to being a woman, she was a woman of, i think, great tenacity. in terms of exploring the world and being a student of the world if you will. i mean, there is a reason we want to play that footage of her visiting iran during the

time of the shaw. and gandhi, i mean, her life's had the story, in many ways, of the 20th century. and also the decline of the british empire, i wanted to focus on that with you for a minute. the atlantic has a wonderful assessment of her life today, i'm just gonna read an excerpt from it. they talk about how the brochure from her coronation is almost a memento, a time capsule. the official souvenir brochure from when elizabeth the second was crowned, in 1953, is a snapshot of a lost world. it's opening pages stamped with gold and bears the coats of arms of commonwealth countries, many of which no longer exist or were renamed under independents. aiden, now part of yemen, a shawnee land, which is botswana, southern rhodesia, now zimbabwe. ceylon, sri lanka, but see to land, lesotho, sarah, walked out parts of malaysia. british honduras, belize, and swaziland, as 20. i mean, my mother was raised in, burma now myanmar. i mean, she grew up in british

schools and british colony. elizabeth navigated the shrinking of this british world order, if you will. in a way that literally no one else in history has! >> no! and, i mean, it was remarkable. i think, also, she had to adapt, to a degree, to the empire coming home. you know, the population of the uk is infinitely more mixed now in terms of culture in terms of religion in terms of ethnicity, then it was when she came to the throne in 1953. we got to look at the latest government created by liz truss who met the queen only a few days ago. most of the leading ministers in liz truss's government, they

are either women, or they are people of african or asian ancestry. and even a dozen years ago, that would have been beyond imagination. so queen elizabeth has had to not only adapt to a changing world, but also adapt to a very changing uk, which i think has altered more than perhaps people in the u.s. necessarily recognize. >> that is such a great point, the idea of the empire coming home. because that is, in many ways, that gets us to our next segment, actually, which is about britain now. about the uk now. about what happens in the country which is, navigating some very uncharted territory. we have to leave it there though, linda carly, a story that princess scenery city, an expert of global history, thank you so much for your time. >> pleasure! >> we are gonna have much more

on the queen and the legacy that she leaves behind, but also, tonight, the justice department asked the judge in the mar-a-lago search to change her order, preventing investigators from accessing the top secret documents seized from donald trump. plus, steve bannon surrenders, and is facing up to 15 years in prison if convicted. but next, britain is not just using a queen, but queen elizabeth. a notoriously stabilizing national force, this comes as britain heads towards major economic crises. oh and did i mention they just got a new prime minister this week? that is next. xt i have come to the united states from canada, as the queen of canada and bringing the warm greetings of a friendly neighbor, and a strong ally. --

british commonwealth nation.

we are all devastated by the news that we have just heard from -- the passing of the second elizabethan age, we usher in a new area with the magnificent harriet -- history of our great country. exactly as her majesty would have wished. by saying the words, god save

the king. >> god save the king. it was just two days ago that the 96-year-old monarch queen elizabeth formally invited liz truss to form a government as the government's new prime minister. now, not only does england have a new entirely leader in his democratic government. but it has a king for the first time since 1952. as of today queen elizabeth ii's 73 year old son charles the third is the king of england. the first time the head of the monarchy has changed since a guy named harry truman, was president of the united states. a new sovereign means all of the uk's money has to change. the national anthem will now be god save the king rather than guard, of course, the queen. in other words, things are about to change. but as trust said today. this isn't just a new face on british currency, but the end of an age for the united kingdom. with that, the start of a new era. it couldn't be happening at a more chaotic time for the

nation. yesterday, the british pound fell to its lowest rate against the dollar since 1985. which, now that the uk has exited the european union, that matters all the more. this summer, inflation hit 10% in the uk, the highest rate in 40 years. on the first day of the new financial corridor, -- the bank of england as protecting a lengthy recession. on that same day, absent government action, household energy bill across the uk are set to spike by as much as 80% as europe and the world struggle to find enough energy to make up for the losses resulting from russia's war in ukraine. railway workers, dock workers, postal workers, all sorts of workers have walked off the job in the past month demanding better pay. the uk is on the verge of an economic crisis, while at the same time undergoing two major shifts in leadership. so what happens now? joining us now is edward luce, u.s. national editor and columnist at the financial

times. mr. loose, thank you for being with us. >> pleasure to be here, alex. >> so i want to get your sense of, i mean, we know that queen elizabeth was not dictating fiscal policy in the uk. but she was widely seen as a stabilizing force for the country. i wonder, against this backdrop of some degree of economic turmoil, how meaningful her passing is. how necessary she may have been as a steadying force in this particular moment? >> i mean, i think given her longevity and the symbol of continuity that she was, that anytime her passing would have been quite a convulsion. and the marking of an end of an era. but this time in particular, as you have just outlined with, you know, i think winter of discontent coming. another winter of discontent after the one in the late 70s that, where strikes, you know,

across britain. we are looking at a very gloomy next few months so her passing literally two days after the new and very inexperienced prime minister has just been sworn in. with her son sharyl's taking the throne not as popular, not seen nearly in the same light as his mother was, it does mean there is gonna be a rather, i don't know, a tenuous time for the british disestablishment, if you like. but we are gonna be focusing a lot on the buildup to a funeral. the period of mourning between now and her funeral. and, you know, the british might not be able to do a lot of things well nowadays. but the pageantry of a state funeral in westminster abby will divert the spirits for a while. she was genuinely beloved, even people who aren't natural

royalists like linda kollie, and myself for that matter, were very saddened by her passing. >> i wonder if we could speak of a new government for a moment, because liz truss has come into office and suggests that the government coffers, she may use them, she may drop on them to cap household energy prices well into 2024. expecting the shortage resulting from ukraine is going to have a profoundly negative effect on basically britain's wallets. that seems very out of step with the kind of fiscally conservative small government character she proposes to be. how does that work and is that not a massive spending deal for the truss government, if you will? >> it is. i mean, lustrous has modeled herself on margaret thatcher, down to the clothes that she has been wearing, really down to 80. so for a libertarian,

deregulating small state tax is cutting, it's conservative. you could hardly think of a worse fiscal moment to come into office than that, because she will have no choice if she wants her prime minister ship to survive. but to spend heavily, as i think she announced in the last 24 hours. to spend very heavily, public money on putting a cap on peoples energy bills. if she didn't put a cap, i think it is 2500 pounds cap on their energy bill, this winter, when it, would if it were at market rates be whatever, 6000 pounds. seven, seven and a half thousand dollars. if you didn't do that, if you didn't spend this, tens of billions more than 100 billion of public money. her prime ministership would be dead in the water. so a libertarian prime minister ship, government, begins in a very state of interventionist way. necessarily. she has no choice.

>> two days after the death of the sovereign, one who has been there for almost all of the 20th century, or as long as most of the country can remember. i know that the queen kept her deliberations and conversations with her pm secret. but did you get the sense, as a brighton, that those were meaningful conversations. that they were anyways additive in terms of the prime mentorships, that they mattered at all? >> i think, you know, a lot of people sort of, because they watched the crown season 1 to 4, they've conflated history with fiction because the drama was so vivid. but i think what season one of the crown got writers that she was a very young and naive unfairly out shooting person who came to the throne in 1952. she had a succession of old very experienced man. like churchill and harried lippman as prime minister. but as time wore on, of course, she got used to talking to prime ministers every week.

you know, for 70 years. that builds up and do quite a lot of experience. quite a lot of insight. i suspect there might have been some more eyebrow raising or theatrical eye rolling moments in her weekly prime ministerial audiences as she got older. particularly in the last few years. >> the u.s. national editor and columnist at the financial times, thank you for mentioning the crown, we needed that in the broadcast tonight. [laughs] thank you for your time tonight. >> pleasure! >> much more ahead tonight. up next, big legal developments into parts of the investigation into trump world. first, the doj asked the judge to allow the department to continue its investigation into the classified documents recovered from donald trump's beach club. or, they will appeal. and a man named steve bannon is back in court facing up to 15 years in prison. former prosecutor jobs fans joins us live next.

i was thinking today, i thought she was a little younger, 96 is a wonderful run. she was a very important moment in the modern history, since the second world war, she was an integral part, she will be missed. >> very sad news, just can't believe, it we really came from northern ireland this morning just taking it in. >> yeah, we are -- this afternoon for sure. she probably passed away. very sad. very sad i tried always discreet underwear. it absorbs an entire glass of water. it fit like a glove. it just felt like real underwear. game changer! it's the protection we deserve. ♪♪ meta portal go. look professional. ♪♪ even if you don't feel it. meta portal. the smart video calling device... - right on time! - of course. that makes work from home work for you. so, shall we get started?

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>> there has been this whole back-and-forth about a special master in the trump, oops, i took thousands a -- top secret documents -- on labor day, a trump appointed judge granted trump's -- independent arbiter to review the documents the fbi seized from mar-a-lago, to sift through them for executive privilege and attorney privilege issues. she ruled that the fbi had to halt its investigation into those documents, and instead wait for that special master to go through them first. so over these past few days, the doj has faced a tough couple of days appealing judges order which might take a while, or let the special master go-ahead, which could also take a minute. today, we got the departments answer, they are okay with the special master generally, but not with respect to any

classified records. the justice department asked the judge to cause part of her order and exempt the over 100 classified documents found at mar-a-lago last month. to exempt them from the special master's purview, and to allow the doj and the fbi to continue to work on the investigation by examining those 100 or so classified documents. now, if the judge refuses to do so in the next seven days, the doj gave notice that it would seek relief from a federal appeals court. why is the doj doing this? because they argue that letting the special master see those classified documents while preventing the justice department from using or reviewing them, well that will cause, quote, the most immediate and serious harms to the government and republic. the doj makes clear today in its filing, the judge's ruling has had the effect of halting not only the doj's criminal investigation, but also the intelligence communities

review. quote, uncertainty regarding the bounds of the courts order and it's application for the activities of the fbi has caused the intelligence community to pause temporarily this critically important work. they argue that the government and the public are republican injured when a criminal investigation of matters involving risks to national security forces joined. so that pretty urgent seeming intelligence reviewed has been stopped, the doj is saying here. because, despite the judges order to carry on while the criminal mastication is put on hold, the investigation and the intelligence committees review are intertwined. quote, the intelligence communities review and assessment cannot be readily segregated from the doj and fbi activities. okay, let's take a step back here for a second. the fact that the intelligence communities review has been halted, that seemed significant, to say the least. because every day we are finding out more about what was

actually squirrel the way down at mar-a-lago. reportedly, the trove included a document concerning a foreign nation's nuclear capabilities sort of sounds to me like a review concerning the national security implications here, but that shouldn't exactly be put on hold right now. beyond that, there is one other pesky problem with appointing a special master to review these classified documents, according to the doj. trump doesn't have a cognizable interest in those documents. because, well, they are government property. to put this in plain speak, trump is saying mine, and the government is saying hours. both sides still have a deadline of tomorrow to provide a list of special master candidates. we will see how that goes. joining us now, joyce vance, former u.s. attorney for the northern district of alabama. current professor at the alabama university school of law. co-host of the podcast sisters in law. joyce, thank you so much for being here. thank you note vance for helping us all decipher this. >> good to be with you, alex.

>> so what is the strategy here in this latest doj filing? >> this is a really elegant strategy that the doj has crafted. we don't yet know what their notice of appeal to the 11th circuit will look like. this request is to a district judge to stay apart of her order, and it's a very limited part. it's only part of her order that restricts doj from continuing to use classified materials. also orders them to turn those materials over to a special master. the reason it is inelegant strategy is because this is the part where it is the clearest that the judge just tried it into uncharted territory, issuing orders that were legally unground it. likely really harmful to national security. so, doj is on very strong ground here. they may ultimately decide to appeal the entire order when they hit atlanta and the 11th

circuit. for now, they are just saying to the judge, you should reconsider what you did. it's really harmful to the national security. >> so, they are basically, i mean, effectively, calling her bluff here? they are calling her out on the most controversial parts of her ruling? suggesting that she basically gets a do-over? is that pressure going to work? >> you know, you would really think it would work, her initial order, in many ways, was unsophisticated and just plain wrong. the doj does a nice but very polite and delicate job of laying that bear. for instance, they point out that she suggested that it's important for the intelligence community to continue to do its work. but they tactfully say, you know, judge? the fbi isn't ten -- get to complete its rule. the cia lacks domestic authority. so if we learn that there are leads to follow now, trying to

identify documents that may have been in these empty folders, that got her bid somehow were spoiled out into the public or into other hands, it is the fbi who has to do that work. your order says that they can't do it. so they have done a nice job of doing her an off ramp here. >> a different off-ramp, but they also kind of explain how it all works, right? it seems clear in her ruling that she doesn't understand that the intelligence community, the officer natural direct -- works hand in glove with the fbi to understand how national security may have been compromised. they basically have to explain that to her in this document, also, say this important review is on time out. were you alarmed by that? >> it is really alarming. alex, something that it points out is that the judges ruling really got a head where the parties had provided her with briefing. had she not ruled so precipitously without giving the doj the opportunity to explain this to her, we might be in a very different position.

but the doj actually had to go back to brass tacks, and they cite in their hyundai request to the judge, they say, judge, the fbi is actually one of the intelligence community agencies designated by executive order to be part of the intelligence community. which is something that this judge seems to have missed. but is not for nothing, to sort of harm's, the sort of damage that the doj identifies in their motion. they suggest that if this stay is not granted to doj so that they can go ahead and use these hundred classified documents, that there can be damage. not just to the intelligence committee and their enterprise, but also to the criminal investigation, the public's entitled to justice. also it is damaging to turn these materials over to a special master. the supreme court has talked in its cases how important it is for classified agencies to retain control over the integrity of their documents.

and it seems a little bit odd that we are all sitting here politely discussing the fact that the former president, who refused to return these documents when he was asked to, and who there is evidence that he obstructed the investigation or at least some of the folks involved in this and enterprise instructed the investigation, that there is now a polite conversation that the judge expects the trump folks to have with the doj about who this special master should be. that just seems utterly lunatic at this point. >> the whole notion that both sides are going to agree on a special master seems ludicrous, well, that's lunacy. joyce, there are two other big legal stories i have to ask you about, we learned today that a grand jury is looking into donald trump's save america pack. and steve bannon is surrendering in new york, please take around if you can, joyce, we'll be right back. ght back

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feel like... sound like... even smell like. more on that soon. ♪ ♪ the best part? the prequel is pretty sweet too. ♪ ♪ former trump white house advisor steve bannon turned himself into new york authorities this morning to face indictment on charges of money laundering and conspiracy related to his border wall fundraising rift. this is what bannon had to say before pleading not guilty at his arraignment today. >> they will never shut me up, i'd rather they kill me first. i have not yet begun the. fight >> fight, on steve been in. the last time he was accused of fraud by federal prosecutors, president trump pardoned him. but now there is no trump to

protect him from these state level charges. and, well, the show must go on. also today, in fraud related news, there was this blockbuster reporting from the new york times. that the justice department's january 6th investigation is expanding. quote, a federal grand jury has issued subpoenas seeking information about save america pack, which was formed as former president trump primitive baseless assertions about election fraud. as a reminder, trump created the save america pack after he lost the 2020 election. he raised millions of dollars by falsely claiming that there was a rampant voter flood but had to be stopped. according to the january six committee, trump and his surrogates misled jury -- congresswoman zoloft grin put it, quote, not only was there the big lie, there was also the big rip off. now, apparently, the justice department has set its sights on trump's postelection fund raising efforts. the times reports, quote, the justice department is interested in the inner workings of save america pack,

mr. trump's amazing and raising vehicle after the election. back with us again is joyce vance. joyce, what kind of charges, or what kind of possible crimes could the doj be investigating -- >> this is a really interesting development. it's not yet clear whether the doj's investigating some sort of fraud, this would be a relatively guarded variety of fraud. right, telling people that you are going to use their money to do something when in fact you are personally benefiting from it or entities that you are associated with are benefiting from it. but it's not clear if doj is pursuing those sorts of criminal fraud charges here. whether this lie investigation would help twofer they're their case involving the insurrection. it might, for instance, of what the ultimate goals or motivations of the former president, could there be some communications that made clear

what the purpose was. this is a very interesting development. >> sure is, steve bannon, the person vowing to fight on, and they will have to kill him for us to shut him up. what kind of implications are here with these charges, what kind of prison time could he be looking at? >> well, speaking of garden-variety fraud, this is more of it. right? we go from the big rip off to the big grift. this is ban in fraudster activity based on trump's significant build the wall campaign. it is just a really remarkable sort of a footnote to the trump administration. that this would happen with bannon benefiting personally from this sort of fundraising. you know, the charges are serious even though their state law charges, bannon could be looking at something like 5 to 15 years in custody, if he is

convicted. again, that raises the specter, a man in his early 70s, he may be interested in cooperating and providing other information about other criminal activity he is aware of. >> so, i, mean cooperating. do you think that this is pressure to get him to flip? >> i don't think it is that. honestly, i think that this case was the only logical outcome of the pardon that trump issued. the conduct is serious, even though it is a relatively pedestrian one, it needs to be addressed for accountability purposes. all of the reasons that we have criminal justice, punish people, to deter future misconduct. these are all important sources of principles that these prosecution stands out for. for byproduct of it is cooperation, well that's all the better. >> oh, principles. joyce vance, former u.s. attorney, thank you for your time tonight. thanks for sticking with us. we will be right back. back. d's work, meet daughter's playtime. thankfully, meta portal auto pans and zooms

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will see you again tomorrow, and now, it is time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell. good evening lawrence. >> good evening. we have some breaking news at this hour, and from the judge handling the trump search warrant case. she has just issued a quick, one sentence order to both parties on the case to clarify what donald trump's position is concerning, what she calls, the hundred documents discussed in the motion for a partial stay. the justice department just filed it today. just filed, late this afternoon. here is the judge, immediately, responding to that. luckily,