tonight on "the reidout." >> the person said hey, you have just indicted two major allies of the president. chris collins, a republican congressman from upstate new york. and michael cohen, the president's lawyer and fixer. and it's time to even things out by indicting a democrat before the midterms. >> the bombshell new allegations from former u.s. attorney geoffrey berman that trump and willier barr wanted him to put his thumb on the scales of

justice and go after trump's political rivals. >> also tonight, we have come to know lindsay graham as the most cravenly opportunistic politician in america, and that's saying a lot. and now two months after saying that states should decide on abortion, he is pushing for a federal ban. >> and giuliani biographer andrew curtsman joins me on rudy's disgraceful dissent. he was once called america's mayor, and now he's a laughing maga stock. >> trump saw the governmental ageany as his. it's run by the attorney general, but when said attorney general is one william barr, things get murky. which brings us to geoffrey berman, the u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york who trump fired in 2020 after he refused barr's request that he resign. a lot has happened since 2020, a

lot. but you may recall berman's firing was a big deal. we're talking about an american president strong arming a u.s. attorney general to fire a prosecutor because he refused to obey and to twist his office for the president's political purposes. and therefore had to be snuffed out and replaced with a lackey who would. let's just say we weren't the only ones likening the u.s. to a banana republic that day. berman has a new book "holding the line," it is out today, and in it he details his ouster along with damning allegations that trump sought to use the u.s. attorney's office in manhattan as his own private law firm. one of the ways berman alleges that trump justice department did that was to try to initiate criminal investigations or block them depending on how trump would benefit. the book describes how barr suggested that the conviction of michael cohen, trump's attorney, former attorney, be reversed. and that the doj pressure berman's office to prosecute two

trump targets, former secretary of state john kerry and greg craig, a white house counsel under president barack obama. craig is one of washington's most powerful democratic lawyers, and trump wanted him to go down. remember, nothing is more triggering for trump than someone or something that's attached to the name obama. and so, the pressure to prosecute craig came in september of 2018. two months before the november midterms. when a department official called berman's deputy earlier today, berman told my friend and colleague, the great nicolle wallace, what the official said. >> we want you to indict greg craig before the midterm elections. the person said, hey, you know, you have just indicted two major allies of the president. chris collins, a republican congressman from upstate new york, and michael cohen, had the president's lawyer and fixer, and it's time to even things out

by indicting a democrat before the midterms. >> berman's office refused to even things out and said they believed craig was innocent. it should have ended there. but instead, the doj sent the investigation to federal prosecutors in washington. where craig was indicted and tried on a single count of making false statements. he was immediately acquitted by a jury because, as berman's office tried to tell barr, he was innocent. the senate judiciary committee will now investigate these allegations, which adds another probe into the crowded genre of trump controversies. last night, we learned that the current justice department has issued 40 subpoenas in a week, expanding its january 6th inquiry. it also seized the phones of two trump advisers. the january 6th committee is also signaling that another hearing could occur later this month. what these ongoing overlapping investigations reveal could and should impact how america chooses its leaders in november.

as well as this very day, as the primary season comes to a close tonight with elections in new hampshire, rhode island, and delaware. one of the republicans running for his party's senate nod in new hampshire is don bol duke, a trump happy maga advocate who is leading in the polls. even though trump himself isn't on any ballot, his followers are. until that pivotal day in november, the probes into january 6th and how trump ran his doj will be impossible to ignore. raising the stakes of an election that could cost us, well, everything. joining me now is former u.s. senator from alabama, doug jones, who is a distinguished senior fellow at the center for american progress, and stuart stevens, senior adviser for the lincoln project. senator jones, you were a prosecutor. you understand that the prime directive obviously is to do justice without fear or favor. what do you make of these

allegations from mr. berman that essentially william barr was using the doj as trump's attack dog? >> well, i think donald trump was using the doj. through the attorney general. that should come as no surprise. i mean, remember, joy, that jeff sessions was forced out as attorney general because he did the right thing by recusing himself, and the mueller investigation, and donald trump never let him over that. he always was after him. from the very beginning of the trump administration, the doj was seen by the white house as donald trump's lawyer, doing donald trump's bidding, attacking his enemies, supporting his friends. it comes as no surprise. i'll tell you from those of us on both sides of the aisle who have been involved with doj for many years, it's really a sad state of affairs. it's still sad to even read about it, to hear about it, because that is not inway -- justice jackson one time said all u.s. attorneys should always make sure that they don't do

anything that is politically motivated. they don't have the appearance. doj doesn't investigate people. they investigate crimes. >> let me just -- because you're absolutely right. donald trump is giving the orders, barr is just following them, but listen to what mr. berman had to say about barr, about barr himself when he was on with nicolle. take a look. >> i think we should examine whether they followed their oath prior to the election. that's the inquiry that's important to me, and prior to the election, barr did the bidding of the president. he politicized the department of justice, and barr couldn't have done what he did without the help of others in the department of justice. bill barr should have been standing in front of those magnificent doors of the department of justice, stopping political interference from entering. and instead, he was the chief architect of that interference. >> i mean, yes, trump is calling the shots.

but barr was dancing to the tune. and you were considered at one point for attorney general. i highly doubt you, all of your history, your work as a civil rights lawyer, et cetera, that you would have taken an order from any president to do what barr did. >> absolutely not. >> do you think william barr is corrupt? >> i'm not going to go corrupt. i just think that there was a situation where he was in a position where he was being -- donald trump was pushing everybody in his administration to do his bidding. i don't think bill barr did that. you know, i voted to confirm bill barr. i have also ultimately said it was one of two or three that if i could take back, i would because it was pretty clear very soon afterwards that he was not going to represent the department. he was not going to be that independent voice that i thought would instill the integrity, but he would be doing the bidding. it was improper at the time. and as i think mr. berman said, what happened before the election is a completely different than what we see with bill barr.

afterwards, he was on his way out the door. >> stewart, the thing is, you know, there is this thing that donald trump does. he either finds people who are corruptible or he corrupts them. it's hard to understand which it is. with barr, though, he wrote a memo, applying for the job, essentially saying please, sir, put me in coach. i'll save you from the mueller probe. outlined how he would do it in a memo, got the job, and came in and acted as the attack dog for the united states. something richard nixon really wanted his attorney general, the only other president who seemed to openly want that. barr is now out on a rehabilitation tour, and he went against donald trump trying to overthrow the election. what do you make of his level of corruption or not? >> well, first, let me give a shout out to senator jones. i'm a senator jones fan boy, and i hope next time there's an open primary for the democratic nomination for president, he'll

run. i'm dead serious. >> i agree. >> he would be a fantastic president. look, i think bill barr is in a plea bargain with history now. he's trying to rewrite his position. i mean, look, i think with all of these trump people, there's a fundamental question. trump had won or had they been successful in the coup early on, would they still be working for trump? and there's every reason to believe that bill barr would still be there. and you know, it's part of this complete moral collapse of the republican party. and what trump has done is he's attacked the institutions of civil society. law enforcement, judiciary, the elections themselves. and as part of that, he finds people who are corruptible. you can argue whether or not -- i don't know what the difference is between being corrupt and acting like your corrupt.

it completely destroyed faith in the institutions. which is what is his goal. that is what authoritarians want to do. you don't believe in the system anymore so you have to gee to the strongman or the strongwoman, and that's the way they will save you. and that's just an extraordinarily un-american movement. because we are about these institutions. that is what makes us different -- makes us the world's longest acting democracy. >> you know, what's frightening about it, i think, let's just look. this is from my wonderful downtown sterling brown, my director. this is the number of people who are running who are election deniers. out of 541, 199 have fully denied the legitimacy of the election. 62 have raised questions. 118 had no comment. only 74 have accepted the results. you served in the united states senate. what's frightening now is that you don't have a brand of republican who can separate

themselves from trump. there's no one who seems to have the moral strength to stand up to him left in the party. even mitch mcconnell, they all take the knee, they all bend the knee. >> it seems to me you have three different genres of republicans at this point. you do have a few people standing up. but they're few and far between. you have seen a couple. >> mitt romney. >> on occasion. >> sometimes, when he wants to. >> governor hutchison in arkansas has said some things, governor hogan has said a few things. then you've got what has been called lately the maga republicans who are just donald trump acolytes. they're going to follow that lead, going to do everything. then there's this group in the middle and it's a huge group. and they're quiet. and those are the enablers. and those are the folks that should be speaking out. we have seen so much coming from the january 6th committee. we have seen so much coming out of mar-a-lago. that factually, you cannot deny. but yet, there is no -- from this group of enablers, there's

no condemnation. there's no distance, nothing but kind of crickets, except when they need help, and those 199 or however many you said election deniers. that's a frightening number because those people can win. and people need to get out and they need to understand that, and they need to get to the polls. this is -- every election is the most important election, but this damn sure is going to be important. >> stewart, the question is, is there a path out. i think president biden has really tried to light a path out. he's putting little candles down on the ground and saying come with me if you want to live. if you want to still be a normal republican, walk down this path and i'm going to segregate out the maga from you. and i just wonder if there's anyone left that will walk down it. >> well, there's few and far between. here's the test. every republican incumbent u.s. senator and every challenger who won the nomination for the u.s.

senate has said that they would support donald trump if he were the republican nominee in '24. what else do you need to know? knowing everything that we know now, they still won't walk away from donald trump. and that, i think, is just a complete collapse of a party. we have never really seen anything like this in american history where a party is not only gone away from the principles that it long espoused. it's attacking them. we have to live in that world. i can't tell you how gratifying it is to see that democracy now is on the ballot and people are talking about this. i think this is how you win elections. you decide what this race should be about, you push that agenda, and i thought the president's speech last week was magnificent, and democrats just need to keep talking about what is at stake here. and it's nothing short of democracy. >> i'll tell you, we're out of

time, but i have some republican friends, people are surprised i have republican friends. what they tell me, to a person, to a man and a woman, is the only cure is they have to lose and lose again, and when they are really in the wilderness, maybe then they'll try to find their way back to the light. if they don't lose, nothing will change. that's at least what my republican friends tell me. we'll leave it there for now. former senator doug jones who alabama made a huge mistake by not having you be senator anymore. your replacement is oh, lord jesus. and stuart stevens, we appreciate you both. cheers. >> coming up next, the new republican talking point on trump's stolen classified documents goes something like that. sure, what he did violated the law. it would be a mistake to prosecute him because it wouldn't be very nice. "the reidout" continues after this. ("this little light of mine") - [narrator] in the world's poorest places, children with cleft conditions live in darkness and shame. they're shunned, outcast, living in pain.

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tonight, the department of justice has filed a new motion in support of their request for a partial stay in the appointment of a special master to review the documents seized from trump's mar-a-lago estate last month. in the filing, the d orc j pushes back on the trump lawyer's argument there's still a question whether the more than 100 documents with classified markings are in fact really classified. the doj writes, even if plaintiff had declassified these records, and even if he somehow had categorized them as personal records for purposes of the presidential records act, neither of which has been shown,

nothing in the presidential records act or any other source of law established a claim of prichbolog or any other action for a restriction on the records in the center of a ongoing national security investigation. this comes as we're awaiting a decision from the trump appointed judge who controls the path forward for the moments in the doj investigation of the documents. judge aileen cannon is expected to release her decision on the doj's request to lift her prior restriction barring the fbi from using the seized documents in its ongoing investigation. in the meantime, the doj has signaled it would be willing to accept one of the special master candidates proposed by trump's legal team. judge raymond deary. deary is a reagan appointee and former chief federal judge in new york. he also served on the foreign intelligence surveillance court and was one of the judges to sign off on the doj request for

a fisa warrant to monitor carter page for potential interference in the 2016 election. which makes him an interesting choice for trump land. as we have said over and over, on this show, this whole little dance that we're seeing is just a speed bump on what many legal experts have agreed is a strong case to be made against trump. but leave it to someone like john yu, the george w. bush era justice departicipate employee who helped write the torture memos after the september 11th attacks to try to make this argument. quote, it is not whether trump violated the law. he did. it is not whether the government had legal grounds for the search warrant. it does. the question is, really, whether he could be charged. the real issue, and i think both people -- people on both sides of the aisle should recognize this, is, is it a good use of prosecutorial discretion, of judgment to charge him? i mean, he was on the tv.

like a tv star. joining me now, barbara mcquade, former u.s. attorney and professor at the university of michigan law school. have you ever heard the question being not whether someone broke the law but whether it would be too divisive to prosecute them? you ever heard of that when you a prosecutor? >> there's a whole list of reasons you may use to decline prosecution. not worthy of scarce government resources, not in the best interest of justice, insufficient evidence, being prosecuted by some other authority, but not on the list is prosecution would be too divisive. so i strongly disagree with john yu on this count. in fact, i think there's so many aggravating factors here that it would be very difficult for the justice department to decline to charge under these circumstances. >> that's what it seems to me as a layperson. let's talk about mr. deary for a

moment. he seems to my lay ears like the least worst option presented by the trump team. surprising they picked somebody who was a fisa judge who was involved in the carter page warrant. what do you know of him and what do you make of him? >> he actually seems like a fine choice. and the fact that he did sign that carter page fisa, i wonder if trump knows. don't say it too loudly. but by all account, he has a fine reputation. he's a judge in the eastern district of new york. certainly, a reagan appointee, but i think that means he follows the law, follows the rule of law. and so i would expect him to be good. one thing that's really interesting to note, joy, is by selecting someone or suggesting someone who has been on that foreign intelligence surveillance court, suggests you need somebody who is experienced in reviewing classified documents. if the documents were declassified, why is it that you need someone who has experience with classified documents? just yet another inconsistency in their arguments. >> it's a very interesting question that you ask, because there's also a thing about

whether or not they're saying they were classified. it's like it's become a thing, one of our producers, he's been obsessed with this every day because they're not actually saying they declassified anything. so there's two ways they're describing this. their august 30th filing regarding the speci master, the counsel to donald trump says that counsel of the former president represented that all records had come from the white house were stored in one location. the counsel further represented that there were no records stored in any private office space. but then today, in the unsealed search warrant affidavit, you had the former -- the former president's counsel say that he was advised that all the records that came from the white house were stored in one location. and he was not advised there were any records in any private office space. this isn't about the classification. it's the way they're talking about the documents. is that significant at all or are we getting too nit-picky? >> i think it's a really good find. you know, it's written in the

passive voice. and most people who are prosecutors are decent writers. they know you're supposed to write in the active voice, not the passive voice. and yet occasionally, you'll see use of the passive voice, oftentimes to disguise or avoid naming the subject of the sentence. who provided that advice? counsel was advised. was it donald trump, was it someone else? so they can state -- make the statement without stating what may be obvious there, but i think it could implicate donald trump if he was the person who provided that advice. >> at some point, don't they have to actually say whether here declassified anything, and also, isn't that irrelevant because you're not allowed -- i can't go into the white house and come out with some documents and be like, don't worry, these are declassified. i would still go to jail. >> you're absolutely right. so number one, it's irrelevant in this case. even if as former president or while he was sitting president,

he had the power to declassify them, it's irrelevant in this case as a matter of law. that's because the charges they used for this search warrant do not require classified documents. the espionage act simply requires they pertain to the national defense. if this is about defense information, regardless of classification, it is a crime to willfully retain them from the government. as for the other part, they have been very cute about this. donald trump himself in his social media posts says declassified, all caps, but you'll notice the lawyers don't say that because the lawyers are filing court pleadings under penalty or perjury or disbarment, so they say things like, he had the power to declassify. they don't come out and say he did, because he didn't, and he didn't have the authority to do that, and it doesn't matter anyway. >> not everybody is rudy giuliani willing to take their law degree and throw it in the air and wave it like they don't

care. barbara mcquade, thank you very much. >> still ahead, republican senator lindsey graham pushes a nationwide abortion ban. a desperate move by republicans to motivate anti-abortion voters ahead of the looming midterms. more on that next. - [female narrator] five billion people lack access to safe surgery. thousands of children are suffering and dying from treatable causes. for 40 years, mercy ships has deployed floating hospitals to provide the free surgeries these children need. join us. together, we can give children the hope and healing they never thought possible. it's a mission powered by love, made possible by you. give today. men put their skin through a lot. day-in, day-out that's why dove men body wash has skin-strengthening nutrients and moisturizers

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during the 2004 presidential

election, republicans in 11 states proposed state constitutional amendments banning same-sex marriages. it was part of a strategy to boost turnout. and it worked. >> many voters say democrats don't understand their moral values. >> even some democrats say it boils down to guns, god, and gays. issues of faith and culture especially important in the midwest and south. >> the amendments passed overwhelmingly in all 11 states. but more importantly, it drew in thousands of socially conservative voters. nearly two decades later, reproductive rights is just as galvanizing for millions of women. and democrats are hoping that ballot measures on abortion rights drive up voter turnout. last week, the michigan supreme court cleared the way for the state's voters to decide if they want to enshrine reproductive rights in their state's constitution. a move some believe will boost turnout for democratic candidates. jessica leach, a lifelong republican who lives in michigan

told my friend and colleague, yamiche alcindor the u.s. supreme court's decision to roll back roe was devastating and forced her to reconsider her position. >> i always considered myself pro-life. it wasn't until i read a few articles and realized the gravity of the situation and what was at stake that it really hit me. at an uncertain time of pregnancy, i think you need to empower women and you need to give them the choice. >> just one month ago, south carolina senator lindsey graham was okay with states like michigan taking these issues to the people. >> i have been consistent. i think states should decide the issue of marriage and states should decide the issue of abortion. >> that guy, the guy who says he's been totally consistent, now thinks it's a great idea for congress to go on ahead and pass a federal ban on abortion. and mandating a criminal penalty

of up to five years in prison to any person who helps facilitate an abortion. >> here's what i think. i think we should have a law at the federal level that would say after 15 weeks, no abortion on demand. >> the name of graham's bill includes the phrase, late term abortions, which is not accurate. 15 weeks is not a late term abortion and should not be used because it's actually a made up term. but that really shouldn't surprise you coming from a guy who is probably the most cravenly opportunistic politician since marco rubio and mitch mcconnell. flip-flopping political positions is graham's m.o. underneath the faux folksy exterior, he told the people to hold him account frbl blocking merrick garland to the supreme

court because it was too close to the election. >> if there's a republican president in 2016 and a vacancy occurs in the last year of the first term, you can say lindsey graham said let's let the next president, whoever it might be, make that nomination. and you can use my words against me and you would be absolutely right. >> now fast forward four years and roughly two weeks before the 2020 election, graham cleared the way for justice amy coney barrett because, quote, the rules have changed. senior republican aides say graham's legislation and its house companion would be a top priority if republicans take back the majority. someone tell senate majority leader mitch mcconnell who had this to say about graham's legislation. >> i think most of the members of my conference prefer this be dealt with at the state level. >> back in may, mitch told usa today that a national ban on abortion would be possible. i wonder what happened between

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what is at stake in this election and in the ballot referendum? >> well, abortion and the right to be a full american citizen with agency over your body is on this ballot. >> they're concerned with how to keep their kids on track after they were kept out of school. if you lock at crime rates, it's continued to rise, and why are businesses are being crushed by big government. >> that was michigan governor gretchen whitmer and her republican challenger speaking to my pal, yamiche alcindor. disagreeing about the importance of reproductive rights to voters. dixon is anti-choice and said rape victims find healing by having the baby of their rapist. joining me, claire mccaskill and yamiche alcindor, moderator of washington week on pbs. i'm doing to start with you. this is great work by you, yamiche. tudor dixon is unapologetically completely anti-abortion, but she does seem like she's running

a 1990s campaign. crime and big government. are you detecting on the ground in michigan that there is a crime big government voter, there are more crime big government voters when you're talking to folks in the world or more voters who say women's reproductive rights and really our full citizenship is on the ballot. >> my sense being on the ground is women are extremely upset about the roe decision and that's women that are republican or democrat. tudor dixon, while she's on record as saying she supports banning abortion with no exceptions for rape and incest, she doesn't want to talk about that too much. she said it, and she's clearly on the record, but when i was interviewing her, i asked her over and over again, and she wouldn't own up to it on camera. i think the reason that's happening is because she senses that's not really a popular position. you played some sound of jessica leach, who i think is the kind of voter that democrats hope turn out in big numbers. she was a long time republican. she considered herself an opponent of abortion rights until the moment they were taken

away. she said she couldn't stop crying for weeks after roe was overturned. she once went to an abortion clinic when she was 19, but she decided to keep her son. she said i know the physicality of having a child and i could not in good conscience have to coerce women into having babies. both sides are mobilizing. there's the referendum, now this hotly contested governor's race, so people are trying to mobilize on their sides, but my sense is this is definitely a top issue for voters. >> claire, to me, the giveaway is what lindsey graham is doing. because the thing is, it's clear that republicans have gotten the memo that even the media hasn't quite gotten yet, this is a mobilizing issue, a foundational issue for women, and i know wheem who are evangelical christians who are anti-abortion who are angry, 38 hot angry about this decision because they don't like the idea of women being dictated to and forced to

give birth by the state. rape victims, everything else. lindsey graham is trying to just turn out the other side. he has 45 co-sponsors for this legislation. 45. his bill would have rape exceptions only for minors if the doctor gets documentation from law enforcement reporting a rape. it would have criminal penalties, three to five years in prison for helping anyone who get an abortion. that was his previous bill. we don't know if this bill has the same things in it. that bill had a 20-week ban. now he's rolled it back to 15 weeks. what do you make of this as just a political move? >> lindz lindsay, lindsay, lindsay. i think what he thought he was doing was somehow shifting the be"d" bait over trying to make democrats look extreme, but here's what's in this bill. first, he doesn't have anywhere near 45 cosponsors for this bill. >> that was the old bill, my bad. >> republicans in the caucus are

very upset with him. they want this topic to go away. they do not want it to be elevated. so what does he do? he not only introduces a bill, he puts in the bill that everything these states have done like my state, making doctors have to choose between prison and the health of their patient, making children who have been victimized by an uncle or somebody's boyfriend and been raped, that they are forced to carry that child to term. all of that gets to stay. this bill lets all of the really extreme stuff stay in place. it just forces more liberal states that still respect women's rights to do this federal standard. and he thought he could kind of confuse all this and make it all about late term abortions. no, women are smarter than that. and i would just say, and i think it's really important for us to say this. over and over again. we can talk about this being an

important issue. but the only way we make it an important issue is if all of us find five people tomorrow that aren't registered to vote and get them registered. >> i mean, in states like even south carolina, yamiche, you had a state legislator, a woman who came out and said she's completely anti-abortion, but the idea that male legislators in her state would not even allow exceptions for rape and incest, she was disgusted by it. this is an issue that's crossing outside of the bounds of democratic voters. >> certainly, and to me, this is not about political lines based on my reporting on the ground. it's about women feeling like legislatures and lawmakers are being inhumane to women. that's the language jessica leach, that voter who has changed her mind and her party affiliation, i should say, this isn't just someone saying i don't like your stance on abortion. this is someone saying i feel betrayed by my republican party. as a result, i'm changing my registration to being a democrat. that tells you that women are

looking at these actions and saying this is not the party i signed up for, and even if i thought of myself as an opponent of abortion rights, i didn't think someone who was raped or a victim of incest would be forced to do this. she also told me she was talking about her birth control. this goes beyond abortion rights. there are a lot of women saying if big government is in my doctor's office telling me about abortions, they might also tell me about birth control and correspondent ruception. that's a scary thing for a lot of women. >> they're saying that, claire, because clarence thomas said it. he said we should reconsider the substantive due process. that means birth control. that means same-sex relationships. he telegraphed what he wants done, and now lindsey graham is taking step one. do you think mitch mcconnell would be able to stop a bill like this from coming to to floor if he wanted to stay majority leader if they got back the senate? wouldn't he have to put it on the floor?

>> i think it would be very hard with him with the anti-abortion forces in the country that are totally republican, i think it would be very hard for him to not let there be a vote. the question remains, if mitch mcconnell takes over, how soon will he blow up the filibuster and will he have enough republicans to vote for something like this assuming that lisa murkowski and susan collins are still around. that all depends on the voter in november. >> absolutely. the republicans have now said, lindsey graham has said this is the election. the election is whether women are going to have equal rights and be full citizens. he said it not me. claire mccaskill, yammish alcindor, thank you. >> up next, farce or tragedy. a new book takes us inside the public and private unraveling of trump's last lackey, rudy giuliani. its author joins me next. - [narrator] every three minutes, a child is born with a cleft condition. without surgery, some will die. those who do survive face extreme challenges.

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describe it is was the worst day of my life and in some ways the greatest day of my life in terms of my city, my country, my family. >> well, if rudy giuliani might be the only person in existence who's ever said that 9/11 was one of the best days of their lives. joe biden was spot on in 2008 when he said about rudy giuliani quote, consist of an out of, urban 9/11. looking back it's hard for us to imagine that the former mob prosecutor and who is once called america's mayor leading new york city through 9/11 is now the guy suspended france's practicing law in the state of new york and is currently under criminal investigation for perpetuating it is. brought us four seasons landscaping, black haired dripping down his face and dressed up as a feathered jack-in-the-box in the masked singer. in his new book, giuliani the

riot tries and tragic fall of america's mayor. he described rudy's dissent as a result of moral compromise is made over the years as the temptations of power and money grew. there were any number of opportunities to do the right thing when he did the opposite. by the time he reached an advanced age all those compromises left him an empty vessel, filled with a desire for power and little more. andrew kirtzman joins me now. thank you for being here. it is interesting. your career covering rudy giuliani begins in 1992. i at the time had just graduated college and was living in new york and had the most horrific experience living under giuliani's america. he seemed to be hostile and started off his career with this riot of police officers on the brooklyn bridge to try and oust david inky for screaming the n-word at the black mayor.

how did he develop a reputation for something other than malevolent? because he definitely seemed at least to my young black girl mind at the time to be malevolent. poverty develop this beloved image? >> thank you for having me joy. i think the answer to your question is new york was desperate. we were in a desperate situation. the city was going broke. there was disorder in the streets and the previous administration of david incan's who was a trail blazing figure, a first black mayor of new york, was kind of mired in the paralysis of good intentions. it just laid the groundwork for a law and order guy to come in and clean things up regardless of who got hurt. and i think that was something he was very proud of. he definitely achieved significant results but at great cost especially to the

african american community. >> you know, i think about the case where this young black man was shot by an undercover cop and rudy giuliani's answer was to say he was no choirboy, but he literally was a quiet. boy >> and rudy giuliani's catholic. school >> he was in the same catholic school. the only other thing about him, when donald trump became president, it is interesting how they parallel. the way he dealt with the media, insulting the media saying the questions were studio stupid, attacking the media, was very much like what donald trump did when he was trump president. to get the fact that the idea that donald trump married his presidency after giuliani's merrill to. >> yes very much, songwriter about that in the book. back in the 1990s when giuliani was mayor, donald trump was a developer, he was not involved in politics. he probably didn't know anything about politics beyond what he read in the new york post every morning. rudy giuliani was a role model,

political role model, he was bombastic, he was sadistic with his adversaries. he was blunt and spoken. he made a big impression on trump. when i spoke to white house staffers, they to a person said that donald trump spoke about rudy giuliani in a tone that he reserved for just him. they never heard him speak about anyone with such respect. they also believed that giuliani was a role model for trump and of course the relationship changed dramatically after giuliani's flame in the 2008 presidential race. he lost that and humiliating fashion walked away with just one delegate. he was kind of lost in the wilderness and doing commercials and his consulting business fell apart. his trip back to relevance was

donald trump and involved kind of tramp trumping the alpha and juliana being his employee. >> why do you think he is so loyal to trump? he has destroyed himself for him. >> right, well it is a tragedy. he shouldn't have done it but it goes back to the kind of moral compromises that giuliani has made all his life. the first kind of pivot point was 9/11, when this international hero, instead of preserving this statesman image, he decides to cash in. he makes hundred million dollars over five years. he represents all these sketchy clients and profits dramatically, becomes politically powerful because he lines himself at bush and cheney, and things are going great until he runs for president in 2008. and suddenly it's a crash and burn and he's out of office and a kind of raises the question of, what do you do when you're

the most beloved man on the planet and then you are not? that's where donald trump comes along and that's where giuliani's different desperate efforts to stay relevant come into play. to answer your question, he stayed with trump as a kind of a dead end, because trump >> because he wasn't a dead end! being relevant. it's a fascinating story. definitely we will check it out. andrew chrisman, author of giuliani rise tragic fall of america's mayor. thank y'all thank you very much. that's tonight's read out. all in with chris a. starts now tonight on all in.ead >> you believe barr forced you out of that job because he no doubt believe that by removing the he could eliminate a threat to trump's reelection? >> just when you thought it couldn't be any worse than looked. >> we were very close to indicting that case around the time i got fired and barr knew about the