movement that has been working to overturn roe for multiple decades and hours ago to the public and say, this is what we actually want an abortion -- and a lot of the public doesn't like that, all of kansas. sarah longwell, thank you very much. >> thank you. >> that is all in on this thursday night, alex wagner tonight starts right now. good evening, alex. ight>> good evening, chris, it's funny what happens when republicans actually have to articulate policy, isn't it? >> yes, particularly when you are asked, like, should the survivor of sexual assaults, a minor, have to carry a pregnancy to term -- it's one thing to say abstract, in a hypothetical, and it's another thing to say that that individual, in dearborn, is going to have to do that. it is quite different. >> yes, it actually makes you see the humanity behind policymaking. >> exactly. >> and that's problematic sometimes for the republican party. chris, great to see you, as always. great.

show >> you too. >> thanks to at home for being here. we are breaking news tonight into the investigation of trump's handling into top secret government records that went up at his florida beach club. the trump appointed job judge has denied -- partial state of her special master ruling. last week, judge aileen cannon -- will -- to review the 11,000 seized records that the fbi retreat from trump's home nearly 40 days ago. and in response, the justice department begrudgingly said, okay, go ahead and appoint that special master. but please exclude those roughly 100 classified documents you seized from mar-a-lago. because we need to continue the criminal investigation into these classified documents due to potential national security concerns. also, a second intelligence assessment into the potential risks and harms that may have been caused by having those top secret classified documents hanging out at trump's club, the justice department argued that that assessment could not

continue without the fbi's assistance. now tonight judge cannon has denied that request. she said, basically, tough luck. judge cannon wrote in her order, quote, the court cannot advocate its control over questions of privilege and does not find the government argument sufficiently convincing as presented. not sufficiently convincing, department of justice. there's been no actual suggestion by the government of any identifiable emergency or imminent disclosure of classified information arising from plaintiffs allegedly unlawful retention of the seized property. in other words, she did not agree with the government's argument that her order not only delayed their criminal investigation but, by impeding the parallel intelligence assessment, would harm our national security. and cannon clarified, the fbi's free to participate in the intel assessment. quote, the temporary restraint does not prevent the government from continuing to review and use the materials seized for purposes of intelligence classification and national

security assessment. so, just go on, keep doing what you are doing even though you say it is not possible. this is tough news for the justice department and potentially the intelligence community. judge cannon did officially named the special master who will oversee the review of these government records tonight. and she has appointment raymond jay dairy, a senior district judge for the district of new york -- a man appointed by ronald reagan. dairy was for suggested by team donald trump as one of their two -- the justice department later agreed that dearie would be a good pick. but it is clear that the government would really like the special master -- if it is judge dearie they would really like him to work expeditiously. the doj had asked that if a special master indeed was appointed, that he or she wrap atoll up by mid october. tonight, judge cannon ruled that senior judge raymond j. dearie should conclude his rule by november 30th or thereabouts. because that date could potentially slide. in addition to all of these

apparent concessions to the former president, judge cannon also said that trump's team will get a chance to review everything with the appropriate to curate t clearances of course. but that is a big win for the former president. he potentially gets to go over all of this classified material, much of which he no longer has the clearance to review. it is worth noting here that judge can and does not accept the government's assertion that they seized roughly 100 classified documents in the first place. she cast serious doubt on whether or not those documents are actually indeed classified. and you can almost hear the mistrust of the government in a ruling tonight. quote, in isolating the described documents from the larger set of seized materials, as 100 classified arguments, the government effectively asked the court to accept the following compound primacy's, neither of which the court is prepared to adopt hastily without for the review by a special master. the first premise underlying the motion is that all of the one approximately 100 documents isolated by the government are

classified government records. and the plaintiffs therefore could not possibly of a possessory interest in any of them. the second is that the plaintiff has no plausible claim of privilege as to any of these documents. so basically, the judges saying, i am not ready to accept that those 100 documents are classified. who are you to say that, doj? the justice department closed told the court last week that they will appeal this ruling to the 11th circuit court of appeals. so, keep an eye out for that. this ruling is a doozy and we have a lot to unpack here. joining us now is barbara mcquade, former u.s. attorney for the eastern district of michigan. barb, thanks so much for being here to help decipher what is going on. let me just first ask you what is your reaction to this ruling that seems to be a gift to donald trump, at least from the initial assessment of what is happening here? >> it's really astonishing, alex, and the justice department through her a lifeline, and judge cannon threw it right back, really doubling down on this idea.

and as you say, it just drapes with the distrust of the government, saying, just because they say they are classified, how do we know they really are classified? and how can you say that don't trump has no possessory interest in them? how can you say there is no privilege? classified documents must be stored in a scif, these are stored in a basement. this idea that he has somehow a right to these documents is, i, think completely beyond dispute. but i will say there are a couple of things carved out here that are not bad. one is, she met doj's deadline. they want to decision by today. she didn't have to follow their deadline. but she did. so, that was good, because the case is moving along and is not dragging any more than was a sorry. the other thing is, she did clarify that that intelligence risk assessment, that the justice department wants to do, can include members of the fbi, to the extent that it is inextricably intertwined with criminal aspects, interviewing of witnesses, or fingerprinting or other things -- they can go ahead and do that. and i think one worry was that if they did that, then any of

those witnesses who are involved later in the criminal case would be deemed tainted and an ultimate conviction could be thrown out. and so i think she has included some clarifying language there that could actually be helpful in conducting that assessment. >> so, you think that is a meaningful carve out? that that will assuage some of the fbi's concern? >> no. i do think it is a meaningful carve out. i don't know that it will assuage all of their concerns. -- we ask assessment, really the most urgent thing that can be done. i think these other things are wrong and i think the justice department will appeal on those bases to clarify the law as an institutional matter going forward, that someone who is the subject of a search cannot at this stage challenge the use of those things. that comes later after an indictment. here, i think the judge is even saying, explicitly, that she is going out of her way here, because she believes that donald trump's reputation could suffer irreparable harm. that is really treating him

differently than any other litigant gets treated. and so i think for those institutional reasons, the justice department does have to appeal this order. but i think, at least with regard to that risk assessment of the intelligence community, that can go forward now and she has given them a little more leeway to include the fbi in it, which is essential. because the cia cannot conduct investigations on u.s. soil. >> an important distinction. the other thing that stood out to me is the notion that trump's team can see everything that was seized, including classified material. for seized materials, make available for inspection by plaintiffs counsel, with control access conditions, including necessary clearance requirements, and other the supervision of the special master, the documents marked as classified and the papers attached to such documents. is that problematic? >> it is, alex. the idea of classified documents is that only those with a need to know, within the intelligence community, should he be looking at these things. now we don't know who donald

trump will used to be his lawyer in this instance. it may be evan corcoran or christina bobb or could be rudy giuliani. these people are gonna have access to the crown jewels of our classified intelligence information. and as we have heard, there is some pretty explosive stuff in here relating to the national defense. having that information in the hands of people who are not reliable government actors is definitely a risk to national security. >> i -- the other piece of this is the timeline, the government has wanted to wrap this up pretty expeditiously. we are now given an extended deadline here from judge cannon, to november 30th. but there is part of an appeals process for every batch of documents that either side takes issue with, in terms of classification. could this slide into next year, barbara mcquade? >> i'm afraid it could. one thing she did say is that she asked judge dearie to prioritize these 100 or so classified documents. so, he will look at those, make a decision in turn them over. but of course, that is where

all the action is. i could imagine donald trump making an argument there, after judge raymond j. dearie makes his ruling, judge aileen cannon will be able to make her ruling. and from there, there could be appeals. so, this has always been donald trump's game. run out the clock, delay, delay, delay. it's all as long as possible. but i don't know that he can stall long enough for this case to run aground in terms of the 2024 election. i think at some point it may get delayed by a matter of months. but i think it's an point, this case will come to fruition. and i do you think, based on all that we know, it seems impossible for the justice department to decline pursuing criminal charges here, unless there is some new fact of which we are currently unaware. >> we do know that the next move is probably to appeal is two of the 11th circuit court of appeals. six of the 11 judges on that a trump appointees. barbara mcquade, former u.s. attorney for the eastern district of michigan, thanks very time and expertise tonight. i want to bring into the conversation tonight ben rhodes, former national security adviser for the obama

administration and an msnbc analyst. ben, thank you for being here on such short notice in the middle of a breaking news hurricane here. first, i want to get your thoughts on the disdain with which this judge is treating the national security community, the justice department, questioning whether or not these records are even classified, again as a reminder -- washington post reporting on september 6th that there are documents describing a foreign government's military defenses including its nuclear capabilities in the trench of documents that ended up in a broom closet down in mar-a-lago. what did you make of that language and what do you make of her posture as it relates to national security? >> i think it is totally reckless. it's a little bit insane, alex. and we see these filings. they have the look of legal documents. it shows the legitimacy of them. but this makes no sense. and this is a judge that has no background whatsoever national security. her name and qualifications

that she would be a rubber stamp for donald trump in the republican party's agenda. and if you think about the classification issue, let me just give you an example. i have the high security clearance in the u.s. government, for a year's. there is a cover sheet. it has a classification. every single page of the document is stamped, top secret, or secret. there is not a question as to whether these are classified. that is an absurd thing for her to be asserting. it is marked all over the documents themselves. the justice department, as part of the intelligence community, is well aware of what the classifications that this is, of these documents. and so she is basically imposing a trump defense rationale onto her own legal opinion and it has nothing at all to do with the underlying reality that there are 100 classified documents that apparently had a very significant and sensitive secrets of the u.s. intelligence community on them, that are just gonna be passed around here in some process that is totally unnecessary -- and that is going to disrupt the governments ability to understand why trump had those documents. and, by the way, alex to,

understand as doj said in its filing, why there are 50 document folders that are mark classify that are empty in mar-a-lago as well. they need to try to understand whether there are more documents out there. and so this is just throwing a wrench into the gears in a way that is totally disrespectful of any equity the national security and intelligence community might have about why these documents at mar-a-lago in the first place. >> let's keep in mind that the people, the fbi agents who were tasked with reviewing these documents, some of them did not have the security clearance necessary to review the classified documents. and now, because of this order from judge cannon, you could feasibly have a former crossfit lawyer or rudy giuliani looking over some of what barbara mcquade called a crown jewels of our national security infrastructure. that prospect should terrify everyone regardless of party affiliation. >> it should. i will just take one example of what's out there in the press --

about a foreign nuclear weapons program. this is not like a momentum that donald trump had -- this is a report, presumably prepared not just for donald trump, but for people who need to know -- the information in the document, which is certainly more than one page, would include sources and methods of intelligence gathering. multiple sources and methods of intelligence gathering, perhaps signals intelligence, intercepts, and perhaps information derived from human sources, who were out there in the world, now, today, wondering whether or not somebody might have compromising information they provided to the u.s. government, whether or not they might be in danger. these are the questions that are on the forefront, i'm sure, of the minds of the people of the doj -- and the only question that seems to be at the forefront of the mind of this judge is how she can run political interference for donald trump. i think we have to call this what it is. this is not normal. it is not like a lot of precedent for what the judge is

doing. alex, if i had these documents here in my basement, like in los angeles, i would be in prison right now. i couldn't walk out with 100 documents. we just have to be bearing in mind, what we are watching is, there are two systems of justice in this country, according to this judge. one for every american and one for donald trump. and the idea that we are entertaining a conversation for one of these lawyers, to be sitting there reviewing nuclear weapons into formation about another country, a satisfied donald trump's desire to sow some seeds of doubt about what the government is doing here. that is an absurd role for a judge to -- >> and us far, the judicial system has acted as a check on trump's ambitions. and we now have a judge explicitly calling a page for the trump playbook, saying even-handed procedure does not demand unquestioned trust in the determinations of the department of justice. the institutional atrophy is now infected the judicial branch and we are watching it play out now before our very eyes. >> yeah.

alex, you and i have talked about authoritarianism a bit over the years. it sounds like a fun conversation for the people watching. but really, one of the things that i point out, as i have looked at authoritarianism in countries, is the first thing that would-be autocrats do, when they try to shift into an autocratic system, they try to pack the courts with judges will find in favor of their power grabs. we have seen this from russia to hungary, and so what donald trump tried to do, is to appoint people who are highly unqualified in certain cases for this their positions, including this judge, for that matter, whose main bona fide day was fealty to a trumpian agenda. they were not subtle about it. they pick people who are very, and very inexperienced, who came up to a pipeline of judges who are very ideological. and we are seeing the results of this across american life. we obviously see it in the most extreme level in the dobbs case in the supreme court. but bear in mind now there are judges in the system that -- it's not whether or not they disagree with my particular

philosophy of governance, it's not whether they disagree even about certain aspects of what is in the constitution and what is not. this is someone inserting themselves into a fairly routine criminal prosecution, when you consider what trump has taken with him outside of the government. no one can deny that it is a crime to take 100 classify documents and your basement in mar-a-lago and creating rationales to throw stand in the gears of that process and to shape the rule of law so that it's not the equal administration of justice in this country -- and so the national security is secondary as an interest to donald trump's personal legal interest and his reputation interest. that is actually what she says here. and so i think we have to see this as part of the danger to democracy that we are facing, not just a danger to national security about the danger of this kind of radical approach to a judiciary that puts the interest of a political actor above the national interest. >> it should be distressing, not just of the ruling itself but what it signifies more broadly. ben rhodes, former deputy national security adviser in

the obama administration. it's always good to see you, my, friend thanks for your time. >> thanks, alex. >> a head, my interview with john fetterman, democratic nominee for senate in the state of pennsylvania. his answers questions about his health, republican attacks, how the supreme court abortion ruling is playing out on the trail, and trolling doctor oz. and the latest republican stunts using migrants as political pawns. so, just how low some gop governors are willing to go to make a political point? -- like this are not new. in fact, we have a very long history in america. and we will explain all that coming up. coming up.

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prove this message. >> dog made a fortune on tv. i remember he show. he had a magic pill for everything. raspberry ketone's, c buckhorn, alpha cyclo dexter a yak on -- garcia cambodia. doctor oz pushed all those pills. and he knew they didn't really work. >> there is not a pill that is going to help you lose way without dye them exercise. he took advantage of his viewers. now he expects us to trust him as a politician? forget about it? >> that is the latest campaign ad for pennsylvania now in the democrat john fetterman. fetterman has been blessed with one of the most unintentionally funny opponents incentive history.

television medical personality dr. mehmet oz. when the fetterman campaign has in many ways made the campaign about dr. awesome self, how rich he is, how many homes he has, and where those homes actually are. specifically, that the only just moved to the state, he is now trying to represent. with personal politics on display here have not gone unnoticed by the awes campaign, which has responded interned by going very, very personal. days before the primary back in may, fetterman suffered a stroke. he has since made it back out on the campaign trail, holding rallies and getting the campaign mostly back to normal. but dr. oz has done all he can to make the focus not on any particular issue but instead on fetterman self. as much as this race is about dr. offices larger than life persona, his health, or even the state of pennsylvania itself, this race is also ultimately about which party will ultimately control the senate come september november. -- but there were beauchesne rights and health care and

social security and everything else republicans would like to get their hands on if they get a majority. earlier today, i sat down with john fetterman to ask how his campaign is going. w john, thank you so much for being with us tonight. let me just first start with how you are feeling. and if you could tell us how this whole recovery process has been for you. i think we haven't focused on the incredible strides you have made in the last few months, but also the difficulties i'm sure we don't even know about. >> it's so wonderful to be here with you today. and the recovery has been like a miracle, because it could have ended my life. but thankfully i happened to be at the right place at the right time. it got me to the hospital in about 20 minutes. it allowed them to save my life, and since then i have been making a recovery that has left

me able to run the kind of campaign, do rallies, do interviews and be evaluated by doctors and everyone, who all agreed that i'm absolutely up to run this race. right now, doctor oz has really making fun of her mocking someone, and at rallies i asked people who has had a major health challenge in their lives? what about your parents? what about children when about grandparents? and by the time most of the hands are up and they say i am so sorry that you're having these kinds of challenges, but i hope you never had a doctor in your life making fun of you are seeing the were not able to do your job and to work. but unfortunately i have a doctor in my life seeing those kinds of things. if we are not able to send you back turner jersey he's gonna be an all of our lives seeing these absurd things.

>> you makes a great point that you are doing interviews. we're so thrilled to have you on the show. you have done a few others as well. but there was a convalescence period. i wonder if you could just tell us a little bit about what it has been like. take us back to that moment in early may. how was your summer? what was happening? what were you thinking about life and your candidacy? >> sure. my wife saved my life. i was on the way to an event, and she said, oh my gosh, you are having a stroke. i said no, i'm fine. we've got to get to the event. and actually, no, she said you've got to get there, and that's what happened. it was very bracing to face the fact that i could have died. thinking about that, reflecting about, that the father of three young children and a wife, and

thinking of all those things. i promise you that is ten times bigger and harder than the cheap shots that doctor oz has chosen in his campaign. but again, it's his story. he's got to tally the way he needs to but he needs. to own those kind of words because a doctor choosing to mark someone who is recovering from a stroke, i don't believe demonstrates that he is lost his way in. fact he has never had his way. you have the kind of campaign that we have right now. >> apart from, well, we're gonna talk about the verbal and cognitive concerns, but emotionally, as it changed you? . sure >> it has definitely changed me. before the strike i was empathetic and i understood what it was like to deal with these kind of challenges. but after it happened i was ten times more empathetic and

understanding. i have really been able to connect with people in the audiences across pennsylvania that have stopped me and said hey, i had cancer, i had a stroke, i had these kind of issues. i said no, thank you for supporting me. the kind of race that is about standing for basic democratic values and issues that i think a majority of pennsylvanians supports. >> your campaign, as of yesterday, has agreed to a debate with doctor oz at the end of october. as part of, that one of your conditions is using a closed captioning system. can you explain to people how and why that is necessary? >> sure. absolutely. i'm speaking with closed captioning right now. just because after the stroke that could have taken my life, the actual lingering issue of auditory processing. sometimes they may not be able to hear things, i might miss a word. and now i just want to make sure that i know exactly the

question that is put to me. an example of what happened before the stroke. let me give you an example. thought i was going to i was actually in a -- and i said, i am actually at wagner's. combining two words together to create something that doesn't exist either. that is really the simple truth. >> a lot has been made of your health, especially by republicans. there are viral videos, mash-ups of your cognitive, the vocal errors, the thing that they think suggest cognitive decline. what do you say to pennsylvania voters who see some of this and hear the ads from doctor oz's camp and are worried about your capacity for office. what do you think about skeptics? is this guy operating at 100 percent? >> all of my doctors on the team believe that i am

absolutely fit to serve. i just took a test, i think yesterday, that confirmed that i am fully functioning in the range as well. the one side that wants to lie about that, they want to run away from the truth, they don't want to confront basic issues like abortion. doterize is unwilling to address that. >> let's talk about abortion. this week senator lindsey graham proposed a 13-week federal abortion ban. what did you think when you heard that? >> well, doctor oz might be a joke, but it's not funny, because abortion is on the ballot. it's a simple question. doctor oz, do you support, excuse me, the gop bill to ban abortion? yes or no? >> so you think this is a question that doctor oz needs to answer. does he support lindsey graham's federal abortion ban? and do you believe that this is,

i mean when you first heard lindsey graham propose, this did you think, this is a bid to be republicans in senate races? >> i don't consider it is a gift. it's a dangerous kind of law and it's even more scary that doctor oz would vote to eliminate the criteria for america. he may be a clown but a clown with a vote is very scary, and we need to make sure we send it back to new jersey where he lives and make sure that we stand for abortion rights, for the way of life, for minimum wage and we stand for health care and we stand for making sure that health care can have the opportunity that saved my life for everybody, not turning around and making somebody who is challenged. >> how are you feeling about

the race right now? there are a couple of weeks left, you're on the mend, you're going to have the first and only debate. you're out there talking to the media. the race is expected to tighten. what's your state of mind right? now >> i'm feeling great about the race. i'm getting stronger, better and better every day. whether you look at all the different poles, like the ones yesterday, you have, i think nine points and five point. we're gonna run like we're down five points, every day. this kind of campaign we have always run. it's the end of this week, we are going to take this all the way to november 8th, and we're going to make the kind of argument all across pennsylvania that a man from new jersey with ten or 12 mansions and somebody the believes that abortions the decision should be held in their choice, not women and their doctors. whether that is a candidate

that believes that the human way of life needs to be taken away, or if we believe that the minimum wage is just fine at 7:25. i believe, at the end of the day, the majority of pennsylvania voters all agree with me and we are going to see november 8th when it all comes down. i sure hope pennsylvania and america doesn't have a doctor in your life that chooses to spend their campaign ridiculing somebody who had a stroke. >> i've got to say, it sounds like you're having fun trolling doctor oz. is that a fair assessment? >> he is a gift. he put out such ramah tyrrell, whether the fact that he lives in new jersey or, pointing out that he has ten or 11 hones. he really makes, he's very rich

material. >> he's got plenty of material. john fetterman, this is an extraordinary race, an extraordinary state, an extraordinary time. good luck, sir, and thank you so much for spending some time with me tonight. >> thank you so much >> coming up, republican gonna rhonda sanders is using people as props. desantis use taxpayer dollars to pick up migrants in texas to lie to them and then fly them across the country and leave them with nothing. i wish i was kidding. that story is next. that story is next ♪♪ meta portal go. look professional. ♪♪ even if you don't feel it. meta portal. the smart video calling device... - right on time! - of course. that makes work from home work for you. so, shall we get started?

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that ensure funds go directly to people off the streets and into >> most of the people who came there's only one choice. yes on 27. had only a shopping bag with perhaps one change of clothing, no money, knowing nobody. it was one of the most inhuman things that i have ever seen. >> my mother was told she was going to have better everything. she was going to have a job. she was going to be able to support her family and her children were going to get an education, be able to go to school. you know, that alone was not the truth. >> throughout the summer and fall of 1962, and is a black americans arrived at cape cod, massachusetts, near the summer home a president john f. kennedy. they arrived in their sunday best, dresses, pearls, white

hats. they had little asked pack for what they expected to be a permanent move, mostly because they had little else. segregationists when southern states convince them to travel to massachusetts on buses by promising the world. jobs, permanent housing, a new life, a meeting with president john f. kennedy. none of that happened. these people, women and men and children, were lured, lied to, and sent to massachusetts with nothing. kennedy wasn't there to greet them, but the cape cod naacp was, because they caught wind of the trick. the whole thing, if you can believe it, was on purpose. real people with real lives and real human needs were used as pawns and again concocted by white segregationist southern leaders who are angry about the push for racial integration. they were angry about the activism of the freedom riders in 1961, who aimed to integrate bus travel. they were so angry they punished innocent people on purpose, putting them on what they called reversed freedom

rides. back up north. >> the ultimate accomplishment has already been obtained, and that is to focus attention on the hypocrisy of the northern liberals and the naacp urban league and people like that. >> we intend to continue it until the people in the majority tell those politicians we are through with this foolishness about civil rights and things that you are using for political purposes. >> you might say that we are seeing something eerily similar plan today, just in color. this time targeting another group of people of color, immigrants. >> we are not a sanctuary state, and it is better to be able to go to a sanctuary jurisdiction and yes, we will help facilitate that transport for you, to be able to go to greener pastures. all of those people in d.c. and new york were beating their chests when trump was president, saying they were so proud to be sanctuary jurisdictions, saying how bad it was to have a secure

border. the minute even a small fraction of what those border towns deal with every day is brought to their front door, they all of a sudden go berserk. >> yesterday florida's republican governor, ron desantis, flew 50 migrants to martha's vineyard, a small island of the massachusetts coast. the governor some of the $12 million the state legislator satisfied for transporting or migrants out of state florida. the plans originated in san antonio, texas, but stopped in florida first. many of the migrants that florida flew to martha's vineyard were told they were headed to boston, which means yesterday florida governor ron desantis became the third republican governor during the likes of greg abbott in arizona governor doug doocy in trying to turn our nations immigration system into some kind of political prank, using people as plot ponds to prove once and for all the democrat led states and cities are not actually sanctuaries for migrants. he will show those states.

nbc got a chance to talk with one of the migrants have arrived at martha's vineyard yesterday. >> [speaking non-english] >> [interpreter] >> [speaking non-english] >> [speaking non-english] >> [speaking non-english] >>,,. but this stunt echoes what we saw a 60 years ago when the

segregation southerners bust black americans to massachusetts. we're seeing a group of disenfranchise black or brown paper used as pawns, because the vision of those very same black and brown people being fully integrated into american society is terrifying to certain conservative leaders. you will have more on this, just ahead. ♪♪ energy demands are rising. and the effects are being felt everywhere. that's why at chevron, we're increasing production in the permian basin by 15%. and we're projected to reach 1 million barrels

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learn that 50 migrants would be arriving in martha's vineyard yesterday on chartered planes funded by the state of florida. they got this footage, not because of amazing shoe leather reporting because governor desantis took them off. desantis reportedly even hired a videographer to ride on the plane with 50 migrants. he did not, however, give a heads up to local authorities, who could've helped the migrants when they arrived. the point was chaos and cruelty. the cameras were meant to capture that. desantis's decision to use state funds to use this chaos, busing migrants from texas to cities like new york, chicago, and d.c., including today to vice president harris's home, all without telling authorities in those cities ahead of time. when it comes to florida, npr reported on how desantis concocted this costume persuaded 50 migrants to leave texas for mother's vineyard. quote, the migrants said when they identified as perla approach them outside the shelter and lure them into boarding a plane, saying they

would be flown to boston, where they could get expedited work papers. she provided them with food. migrants said pearl os tell trying to recruit more passengers just outside the flight. when migrant from venezuela said, quote, pearl offered us help, help that never arrived. they said now we are here we. got on the plane with a vision of the future of making it. when you have no money and someone offers help, well, it means a lot. they got on the plane because of a promise of help. they received none from governor desantis, only cameras. joining us now is julián castro, former mayor of san antonio texas and secretary of housing and urban development in the obama administration. mister secretary, mister mayor, thank you so much for being with us. >> good to be with you, alex. >> you were the former mayor of san antonio. we have reporting that the bus load of migrants traveled first to san antonio and then eventually martha's vineyard from a mayoral municipal level.

what does it mean to have busloads of migrants arriving near a city with noah heads up and no action plan in order to help them? what does that practically mean on the ground? >> what it means is it causes chaos you have to scramble to try and provide the resources the city can and also recruit nonprofits, whether churches or other nonprofits to do what they can. that's exactly what we have seen in each of these cities, where these migrants have been bussed. that is actually the story, i think, that shows the compassion and the humanity of the american people. but the flip side of that is, as you well pointed out, governor desantis and governor abbott and doocy being so mean-spirited, being so cruel and lying to these migrants about what is going to happen to them. it's really a measure of how cruel they think they have to be to be successful in the 2024

republican primary that they all want to run in for president. >> it might also be illegal. i want to bring attention, everybody's attention to a tweet you issued earlier this afternoon. governors abbott and desantis are lying to immigrant families to learn traffic them out of state on the taxpayers dime to help themselves politically. it's pure cruelty. it may also be illegal. the doj should investigate. do you think they should could be criminal? could there be legal repercussions here? >> absolutely think the doj should investigate here. they are sending people across state lines under false pretenses. they are trafficking these people for their own political gain. there are human traffickers that traffic for money. these people are trafficking these migrants for a political gain. it's mean-spirited, it's cruel, it's not effective as immigration policy, and it's inhumane. the willingness of so many republicans to go along with

this, i think also says something about that republican base. my hope is that not only rule the doj investigate but that these three governors are going to pay the political price for doing this at home in their state. >> the dehumanization of immigrants in this country, largely the hands of republicans, and i'm thinking of the family separation policy that was the hallmark of the trump administration, this would be contenders in 2024, it plays well on fox news. the border is a singular focus of conservative media. i just wonder, as the tide of history turns, will we look upon this chapter the way we look upon the reverse freedom rides of the 1960s? or is this something that republicans are going to continue to run on and to make a central plank in their policy platforms in the years ahead? i feel like i'm not sure that they're going to be turned off by the discussion we are having. they're gonna ask for more of it. >> look, they are trying to

find somebody who is as mean-spirited and as cruel to migrants as donald trump was without the baggage of donald trump. i think, alex, that this goes in cycles. this isn't the first time in american history that we have seen this kind of cruelty and hatred toward immigrants to the country and it won't be the last time that we see this. but i think that every time you see a push back, and you do see the better angels of the country prevail, at least for a while. i think we are going to look upon family separation and what desantis an avid in doocy are doing as shameful in the years to come. >> they will be asked to defend it if they ran for president. julian castro former secretary of high, and thank you as always for your time. >> thank you. >> we'll be right back. ll be right back seeing my daughter have a heart attack, it shook me. aspirin helps reduce the chance of another heart attack by 31%. be sure to talk to your doctor before you begin an aspirin regimen.

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will be. >> that does for us tonight. we'll see you again tomorrow. now it's time for the last word, with lawrence o'donnell. good, evening lawrence. >> good evening, alex. we have our special master team ready to go here, to begin the hour. they have been studying this order by the judge, which really is, i believe, it actually contains the line by a trump judge that is the trumpiest thing a trump judge has ever said. i will be identifying that line. >> i want to know what that line is. there are a lot of very trumpy lines there that could be emblazoned on the back of a --