enough. >> president biden speaking at a white house summit aimed at combatted violent fueled by hate. meanwhile, the january 6th committee releases chilling new audio of the communications between members of a far right extremist group during the capitol attack, including how they responded to a tweet from donald trump in realtime. plus the latest in the trump records case. a judge appoints a special master while keeping in place an order that bars the justice department from using the material to conduct its investigation. we'll have the latest legal developments including donald trump's not so subtle threat about violence if he gets indicted. and the battle over border security, there is new reporting that top homeland security officials are calling on the white house to take a page from the republican playbook. we'll have the internal debate as the number of migrants

crossing the southern border soars. and as some republican governors resort to political stunts with people's lives, we'll talk about that. later this morning, former secretary of state hillary clinton will be our guest. we look forward to talking with her as well. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is friday, september 16th. along with joe, willie and me, we have u.s. special correspondent for bb news, katty kay in london, and the host of "way too early" white house bureau chief at politico, jonathan lemire, also with us the president of the national action network and host of "politics nation," reverend al sharpton joins us this morning. >> you know what people say about our show, that "morning joe" show is the most mindful show, we teach everybody that two things can be true at one time. >> we're not always that mindful. >> we're going to be talking about that. we're going to be talking about the crisis at the southern

border, and by the way, i understand every two years, yes, there's the convoy stories from certain networks of lepers coming to the states, and it's always ridiculous. it's always timed for elections every two years. just like clock work. this time is different. we have a crisis at the southern border. we've had a crisis at the southern border and it's gotten so bad there's some infighting in the administration over how to stop just this torrent of migrants coming across the border in an uncontrolled, unsafe way that creates a humanitarian crisis. that's the truth new one of our hands. you have politicians that are engaging in political human trafficking, grotesque, getting migrants who have come from

their countries with kids, putting them on buses and taking them up outside the naval observatory this washington, d.c. and just dropping them off to make a political point with lives. and it's just yet another example, i think most americans are like me, i want order at the southern border. i don't think people should come in illegally, but it is grotesque to grab these people, throw them on buses, drive them up to washington, d.c., and just drop them outside of an official residence, the vice president's residence. it's grotesque what they're doing with these human beings. this is political human trafficking. >> well, with that, joe, how about telling a group of desperate people who have arrived in the united states, get on this plane, we're sending you to new york or boston where you will be well taken care of, they're better equipped to look out for you, they have jobs and

a new life, and being dropped off an island off the coast of massachusetts, an island that was given no warning that these people were coming. grotesque is the word for that. as you say, joe, we are going to cross 2 million border encounters, 2 million people coming across the aborter. -- border. as vice president harris said to chuck todd, the border is secure. it objectively is not secure. there's a problem. the question is how to go about fixing it. >> there has been a crisis, like you said, and it's a crisis that needs to be fixed. we don't fix it by using migrants as political pawns and dropping them off for, you know, just so you can own the libs. you don't own the libs with human lives. dropping them off in a place they didn't know they were coming, dropping them off in the middle of a street on massachusetts avenue in

washington, d.c. so you can say, hey, we own the libs, we dropped these babies, we dropped these children off in the middle of the street outside of the vice president's home. that's really grotesque. the thing that has always been weird. if you look at poll numbers, the overwhelming majority of americans understood what ronald reagan understood in his final address to the nation, we want immigrants in this country. they need to come here legally, and there needs to be an order to it. but the majority of americans aren't anti-immigrant, it is the same third of the country donald trump has been trying to appeal to. we're going to be talk about this. mika, how about a special master, and what a bizarre ruling. the ruling just keeps getting stranger. let's go to katty kay and give her a warning. we're coming to london, we understand a lot of other people in london.

we'll be here on monday just when you thought it was safe to get away from us. >> that's what all the cues are for, joe. i have been watching these cues going on for hours, now i understand. they're waiting for you. >> of course. but speaking of those cues, i have friends that tell me people at 4:00 in the morning are lined up, like for hours and hours and hours to see the queen, that is the lines are nothing short of remarkable. they had to shut one down today because it goes on too long. >> seriously, they have announced a pause, a six-hour pause. no one can join the back of the cue, it's too long, and people are waiting 20, 30 hours in these queues. the queues are quiet, calm, orderly, the mood is good. i have been amazed having just flown in this morning. there are flowers everywhere laid to the queen.

it really is a moment where the whole country -- and people are not in tears like they were after diana died. it's very dignified and almost a joyful celebration of somebody clearly, brits are prepared to spend 20 hours in a queue overnight to go and say good-bye. and really more than that, to go and say thank you. that's why they're here. >> we'll be following this throughout the day. we'll see you there. but let's get back to the big story in the states. a federal judge has appointed a third party to review the documents the fbi seized from former president donald trump's mar-a-lago home and club in florida. judge aileen cannon named raymond dearie as the special master, a senior u.s. district judge of the eastern district of new york. trump's attorneys had proposed

dearie. among the responsibilities laid out by judge cannon will be to determine if any of the documents are protected by attorney/client or executive privilege. dearie has until november 30th to review the materials. willie. >> judge cannon also denied the justice department's request for continued access to the more than 100 classified documents seized from mar-a-lago to use in its ongoing criminal investigation. the judge insisted her order does not restrict the government from continuing to review the seized materials for intelligence classification and national security assessments or from briefing members of congress about them. specifically, she says the order blocks the doj from presented materials to a grand jury and using them for witness interviews in the criminal investigation pending the special master's recommendation. the doj is expected to appeal

the ruling to the 11th circuit of appeals. let's bring in justice correspondent ken dilanian. there are two parts to what the judge handed down yesterday. let's start with the second one, and that is the blocking of the appeal for justice to look at these 100 documents, the classified documents to continue the investigation. on what grounds did she make that ruling? >> willie, this judge really stuck it to the justice department on this one. the doj told her that the nation was suffering irreparable harm and that national security was at risk. she clearly didn't buy that argument. and said the doj has made no allegation that any of these classified documents has fallen into the wrong hands and she jabbed them to say the only leaks have been about the investigation. the justice department would say that's exactly what they're investigating. they don't know what happened to the documents. she has turned down the request

to allow them to use around 100 classified documents in their criminal investigation, and they are going to appeal that, i have no doubt. she did throw them a little bit of a bone. a small one. she said her order does not prohibit the intelligence community from continuing with its damage assessment. remember that the doj had said that had been halted because of the order and she said the fbi can help with that, and they can do a lot of different things. they just can't use the content of the documents. the contents of the classified documents are crucial to trying to understand what the damage is to national security. if you're interviewing witnesses about what secrets might have gotten out at mar-a-lago, you need to know what the secrets are to be able to talk about them. >> ken, if you could, give our viewers context here about -- i hate to say it this way, as you know, as an attorney, you don't want to cast aspersions on judges. maybe they know something you

don't. i must say, though, reading the documents, looking at the pleadings, this ruling appears to be absolutely bizarre, and maybe i'm wrong, but i can tell you, every intel expert i talked to say this is really dangerous what she's done. you look at legal experts on both sides of the aisle from donald trump's own attorney general to law professors, all across the political spectrum. people say she's clearly reading the law wrong, and doing it, intel experts say, in a way that can harm america's national security. >> it's one thing for a judge to be skeptical of the government's claims. we want that. we want the government to have to meet a high burden when they're investigating somebody for potential criminal violations. in this case, she's saying, we can't trust the justice department, including the national security division to go through a set of documents and tell us which ones are privileged and which ones they

should be reviewing, even when they're classified. that's not the normal stance of the court. normally judges defer to the executive branch when it comes to national security and classified information. the fbi counter intelligence division, they do this for a living, right, and this judge is saying we can't trust you guys, we have to have this special master come in. judge raymond dearie is a respected judge here in new york. both sides agreed he was appropriate for the role, and she did instruct he review the classified documents first. it's possible that this really just amounts to a speed bump and not a roadblock in this investigation because he could easily speed through the documents, find none of them are privileged and hand them over and the doj goes on its merry way. as a matter of law and precedent, it seems that the doj is going to appeal this because they think this is just a bad decision. >> right. at the worst, this potentially could drag things out more,

which is definitely a possible tactic, i'm curious, is it possible that the doj did not meet the high burden necessary for a decision that would go their way? >> i mean, we'll have to see what the 11th circuit says in atlanta which is full of a majority of trump high temperature -- trump-appointed judges. especially some of the classified documents could be subject to executive privilege. there are supreme court decisions that seem to argue against that. we'll have to wait and see. again, the consensus in the legal community is that this judge is on fairly thin ice here. >> on thin ice legally, and mika, the 11th circuit is one of the most conservative in the country. people who have worked with the 11th circuit, who know the 11th circuit tell me they would not be surprised at all, even with

them being as conservative as they are, if they didn't reverse this ruling because it is so ouch balance. >> interesting. nbc news justice and intelligence correspondent ken dilanian, thank you very much. former president trump is warning of quote big problems in the united states if he is indicted for his mishandling of classified documents. here's what he said, listen carefully, on the hugh hewitt show yesterday. >> you know the old saying, a prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich if they want to. i'm asking if there is such a prosecutor and they indict you, would that deter you for running from president again. >> i don't think the people of the united states would stand for it. as you know if a thing like that happened, i would have no prohibition against running. >> i do. that's what i want people to understand, that would not take you out of the arena. >> it would not. but i think if it happened, you would have problems in this country the likes of which

perhaps we have never seen before. i don't think the people of the united states would stand for it. >> what kind of problems, mr. president. >> big problems. big problems. i don't think they would stand for it. they will not sit still and stand for this ultimate of hoaxes. >> reverend al, donald, poor donald, he thinks he's louis xiv, i am the state. if donald has problems, america does. no, problems go straight to donald. he would be the one in legal jeopardy. i found it very interesting, bizarre, it struck me the first time i heard it. you notice he never said, hugh, if i'm indicted we as a country would have big problems. he said you would have big problems. >> the people of the u.s. >> he said they'd have the big problems as if he's somehow

separated from this country. any other normal human being would be saying, you know, if this happens, we have big problems as a country. he sees himself bigger than the presidency, bigger than the law. bigger than the united states of america, and thinks he can break the law and if americans tried to hold him accountable under the law, they would have big problems. your reaction. >> i think you're clearly right about his mind set, and it's the same mindset that tells americans to storm the capitol, and stop the certification of an election that was democratically held, and you had more people vote in the history of the country in a presidential election. it's protect me against them, them being the country that he was the president of, and rather than identify with the country

as you've rightfully pointed out, it's like they need to know who they're dealing with, like he's some omnipotent other presence, and it is really very telling that the same mentality that would say they will have problems if they indict me is saying they cannot certify an election against me because i am all of this and more in my own mind. is this delusion and illusion that i think we're looking at that incited him to cite september 6 and he keeps repeating his mindset to give us an idea of what he thinks. >> jonathan, this is the same threat we heard from lindsey graham, riots in the street if president trump is indicted. they used to be implicit, now explicit threats, someone who brought classified documents to

mar-a-lago, you have seen what trump's people have done, that's the wink on january 6th, you don't want that again, and donald trump came out and said it yesterday. >> this is exceedingly dangerous. it's not just trump making the point that he can run again for president even if he's indicted. that got a lot of headlines, calling supporters, putting them on notice again, hey, if this happens, might have to take to the streets, it will be trouble for them because it's also, to joe's point about the vocabulary trump uses, it's team red, team blue, it's team maga. them, uses words like traitors, threw them around so loosely while he was president and still doing so. let's call also, those comments from senator graham. trump has amplified them on his truth social media site. he is not shying away from that at all. he leaned in hard yesterday, and we know that he condoned violence at his rallies. we remember his nod and wink to

the proud boys to stand back and stand by during the presidential debate in 2020. we know how many of them participated in the january 6th riots. this feels like a call to arms again, and we know federal law enforcement deeply concerned about increased political violence as we head towards this election and in 2024. >> and you know, it is, jonathan laid it out perfectly, mika, as far as the threats. of course we had all the fascist rhetoric during the campaigns, punch them in the face. i love when they carry him out in stretchers, beat him up, and i'll pay. but katty kay, it must sound jarring to our allies across the world when they have a president telling white supremacist groups during presidential debates to stand by, when you have republican senators saying if donald trump, if a politician is held to the same standard we're

held to, and it's not above the law, then republicans will run out and riot in the streets. and then donald trump amplifies that on social media, and then donald trump goes on a radio show and he offers more threats talking about big problems like you have never seen if he's indicted. >> the thing is it would be easy to dismiss those threats, except that we've seen it happen, right, we know it's possible and the rest of the world knows it's possible. they all watched january 6th as well. when donald trump says something like there could be huge problems, the reaction from abroad is, yeah, i guess there could be huge problems because we've seen it happen already in the country. it's interesting, you know, periodically, i'd come to europe and i'd get the kind of feedback on what's happening in america. every now and again, there's a spike in anti-american feeling. there was in 2003 in the invasion of iraq, and there was

when donald trump was elected. when i'm over here now, there's something much more profound, it's a sadness and a concern about the strength of the democratic infrastructure holding in america. there are real questions about does democracy hold, are the organs of democracy strong enough to resist these threats of violence, and, you know, it does cause concern. it takes some of the gloss off the american experiment. it takes some of the gloss off the strength of america as an ally. america is leading in so many ways, joe, you know this. in the war in ukraine, america is leading. in tech technology, america is still leading. it is still the country that people want to go to. it's still the country people want to go and study in. there are questions about how solid america's democracy is, and it's statements like those that we just heard from donald trump, there will be big problems if something doesn't happen to me, and because we saw it happen on january 6th, that's

what makes people concerned. >> i think how america is leading in ukraine, joe, has been vastly under played because of the thought that there is a lack of interest here in america and what's going on there. president biden has handled that and the united states, military and our leaders have really been on the forefront of making sure nato is strong and that there is success. >> and it's bipartisan success if you look in the senate. >> it is, for sure. >> republicans have stepped forward, shoulder to shoulder, almost all of them have stepped forward, that's a bipartisan success, bipartisan success with legislation that has passed over the past couple of years, our dollar, experiencing a generation long -- it's more powerful than it's been in over a generation. there are so many good things that are going on in this country, more job openings than ever before, a stronger job market than ever before. >> and yet the division is the

headline. >> yet, again, washington, d.c. is dysfunctional. americans don't have the government they deserve, and they done have bluntly the opposition, the loyal opposition that they deserve when you actually have a third or a half talking about civil war. get this, because they lost one election. >> i know. >> they lost one election, and now they're ready to throw western democracy away. >> we will continue this conversation. still ahead on "morning joe" this friday morning, vladimir putin reveals china has voiced concern over moscow's invasion over ukraine. >> it's a very bad day for president putin. >> we'll go live. and we'll be joined by former secretary of hillary clinton, who has never been afraid to call out the russian president. she joins the conversation later this morning. also ahead, president biden

denounces racism and white supremacy during the event at the white house. reverend al sharpton was there and spoke with the president yesterday. we'll talk more about the administration's push to end hate-based violent. we'll take a look at this morning's front page headlines across the country, including an alarming story about candy colored drugs being used to target children. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ng joe." we'll be right back. psoriatic arthritis, made my joints stiff, swollen, painful. emerge tremfyant®. tremfya® is approved to help reduce joint symptoms in adults with active psoriatic arthritis. some patients even felt less fatigued. serious allergic reactions may occur. tremfya® may increase your risk of infections and lower your ability to fight them.

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there's growing friction between the white house and senior officials at the department of homeland security over how to handle the number of migrants crossing the u.s., mexico border. that's according to internal documents and communications reviewed by nbc news. according to two new u.s. officials, the white house has hosted a series of high level meetings on immigration, where dhs officials have presented options including flying migrants to the country's northern border with canada to alleviate overcrowding at the southern border. international documents obtained by nbc news show some dhs officials have openly expressed frustration with the white house's reluctance to send migrants to cities within the united states like some republican governors have done. let's bring in nbc news homeland security correspondent julia ainsley. good morning, tell us more about the conversations inside the white house. what these proposals sound an awful lot like are what greg abbott, ron desantis and others are doing right now.

>> yeah, that's right, willie, it might sound like that, but in reality, what dhs officials are pushing is something much more organized. we have known for a few months now, they have been pushing to alleviate overcrowding by taking migrants on planes to interior cities where they could be processed. there could be federal personnel meeting them, prosecuting them, to get them the resources they need, final destinations, oftentimes with family members where they can await their immigration court proceedings. it's not like the chaos we're seeing in new york, chicago, d.c. and martha's vineyard. they have been pushing this for a while. the white house is hesitant. they want to wait until there's a 9,000 number. i understand some days are approaching 8,000, even crossing over that. dhs wants to start planning now, and they think the time to start doing this interior processing is now. we were able to see through

internal communications and documents that there's quite a bit of frustration where dhs feels like they can continue to come up with solutions but the white house is hesitant to take these options. >> so can you give us a little bit of perspective about what's going on at the southern border? i thought, you know, for a while after biden got in that this was just the noise machine going on that, you know, donald obviously republicans didn't talk about illegal immigration being terrible when barack obama was president because it was at a 50-year low in 2016. but then we started seeing the caravans every two years. around election time, but talk about the numbers, i mean, the numbers really are bad. this isn't just a right wing talking point. there's been chaos at the border now for well over a year. it's caused real concerns in agencies. can you explain why that's

happening? >> that's right. i'd be happy to, joe. so if you take just one section of the border we can look at right now, el paso. i was just down there at the beginning of the summer when they were at what was then record highs. they were seeing about a thousand border crossings a day, and they were having to release some migrants on the street. now they're at 1,300 migrants a day. they have done almost a thousand street releases over the past week. they have migrants amassing right in their urban center in downtown el paso. when they release these migrants they push them to bus station, after they have gone through screenings to make sure they're not a threat to national security. it's put things in chaos. if we're looking at numbers across the board at 8,000 a day, jeh johnson has said his red line, when he called in his top people to come up with solutions is numbers at 1,000 a day.

to put this in overall perspective, the highest amount we have seen is may, 240,000 border crossings. an average year would be 100,000 less than that. that's a lot of people, but if you think about the overall landscape and demographics and population of the united states, that's not enough to overall change the country or change the way we do business here. i think that should also be taken into perspective. we see some of the chaos. sometimes it's a matter of managing people and figuring out how the united states can work with partner countries to deal with some of the issues that are driving people here in the first place, the desperation, the political crisis they're escaping. venezuelas, making up the majority going to martha's vineyard, crossing into el paso. that is a country not taking people back. therefore they can't be pushed back into mexico, under the

title 14 restrictions. there's a lot of dynamics at play. we need to figure out how to have what biden promised, which is a safe, orderly, and humane immigration system. >> julie, thank you so much for your great reporting, and mika, that is a challenge. it needs to be safe. it needs to be orderly. it's not safe and orderly right now. there is a humanitarian crisis at the border. the administration is going to have to pay more attention to it. that being said, julie is right, again, putting this in perspective, 20 million people in the country, we are having more migrants, illegal immigrants coming in than we usually do in years. percentage-wise, is it going to radically change the demographic makeup of this country, no, it's not but it's causing real problems at the border and if progressives think this is some right wing talking point, they

should talk to hispanics on the border who are american citizens who are equally concerned and who are starting to vote republican. this is an issue democrats have to stop ignoring and now to the other side of it, because two things can be true at once, it's also an issue that republicans need to stop using in a way that is inhumane, and really it's just sick. it's really just sick. they're engaging in political human trafficking, getting these people, driving them, dropping them off in the middle of streets, thousands of miles away so they can own the libs. not giving a damn about the children, about the families at all. >> i think it comes at a time when the democrats have a lot of wins under their belt, and the republicans have some issues that are really making them lose ground, and this is a headline grabber. >> right. they want to distract from abortion. there's no doubt about it. you look and you look at their candidates who are losing, this is a bright shiny object, and they think that if they do this,

they think if they treat human beings, children inhumanely, they engage in human trafficking for political purposes, they think somehow that's going to help them when all it does is make them look worse. they are now the water that are telling 10-year-old girls that you're going to have a forced birth of your rapist's baby or you're going to have to flee the state. the michigan candidate saying a 14-year-old girl raped by your uncle is a perfect example of why there must be forced births. this is the same party that just made up, made up whole cloth stories about irs agents going to iowa, kicking down doors with ar-15s and killing people. and now they're doing this?

this memo to republicans doesn't make you look good. it just doesn't help. >> what they're doing with the migrants is misleading them, putting them on a plane, and sending them to a place where they have no idea where they are. >> they think about, some democrats in border states last night came out and said we've got a real problem down here. let's acknowledge that first. those are democrats. this is obviously not the way to go about addressing. you talk about a 10-year-old girl. how about telling a 10-year-old girl and her mother who made a trip by foot from columbia, lost a relative along the way as we heard from one family, we're going to put you on this plane, you're going to boston or new york. they have said they're ready for you, there are jobs up there. the new life you dreamed of awaits you and you're dropped on the island of martha's vineyard. i think governor desantis and thought the people of martha's vineyard would be disgusted, and

how would you do this. the opposite has happened. martha's vineyard with no warning, by the way, this is happening in new york city, chicago and boston too. open their arms. they converted buildings into shelters. they donated food. they donated clothing. they're going to help these people make it to the next step. the arms have been open. that's a band-aid and a temporary solution to a massive problem at the border. this clearly is not the way to go about fixing it unless you're in it for the headlines and stunts. >> really quickly, reverend al, there's a bible verse, and i'm sure the pastors up in massachusetts and in d.c., and chicago, and new york are all saying it, following up on what willie just said. what you meant for evil, the lord has used for good. joseph talking to his brothers. what desantis and the texas governor meant for evil, god has

used for good. people have opened their arms. the good samaritans have opened their arms, they've taken care of all of those people that jesus tells us to take care of in matthew 25. >> absolutely. giving hope to the hopeless, rev, and again, that's with these people who claim to be christians, don't understand. >> absolutely, and you know it also brings back to mind, and i think alex wagner did a piece on this last night, that during the fight around segregation, the segregationists bust people to massachusetts to say, you're going to meet with john kennedy, and they told the backs, you're going to meet with president john kennedy, and you're going to get a discussion about the things that you're concerned about, and it was a bogus trip. they got to massachusetts.

there was no john kennedy, there was no discussion. and they're using these migrants in the same way with the same false promises. it's also interesting that they go to martha's vineyard, which is known as a resort for successful blacks. the most well known person there now is barack obama, and they've targeted three cities, chicago, washington, d.c., and new york, all with black mayors, so a lot of little racial notation ought to be raised on what they did that reminds me of the segregationist strategy in the 60s of using buses, and now we're seeing black mayors being overwhelmed by this. this does not take away from the fact we have legitimate problems at the border. the border is not secure, but how you respond to that and who you target in that response is very interesting and troubling to me. >> absolutely. time now for a look at the morning papers.

in mississippi the "clarion ledger" says the boil water has been lifted after seven weeks. it comes after two consecutive days of clean water tests from more than 100 sites throughout the city. jackson's water system is still fragile and a private team manages the city's main water treatment plan "the daily advertiser" highlights the story of a louisiana woman who was forced to travel over 1,000 miles for an abortion. nancy davis whose fetus did not develop a skull in her womb traveled to new york to receive an abortion after a louisiana hospital denied her the procedure. >> are you kidding me? >> this is your border problem, republicans. >> are you kidding me. >> because the fetus still had a heart beat, no brain, but a heart beat. >> that is inhumane. >> 1,000 people donated $40,000

for the woman to make the trip and have the procedure. in tennessee, "the chattanooga times free press" says bill hagerty will support lindsey graham's 15-week abortion ban bill. in an interview, haggerty characterized the procedure at infanticide. the south florida sun sentinel leads with a warning about rainbow fentanyl that has been detected in 18 states. fentanyl that's colored to look like candy, and children may be the intended target. the drug has been found in actual candy, such as jolly ranchers and has been seen molded into gummy bears. sick. and the news journal reports that a delaware judge has ruled a new vote by mail law enacted earlier this year is unconstitutional, and voting by mail cannot be used in the upcoming november election.

at the same time, the judge upheld the state's new same day voter registration law. up next, nbc's janis mackey frayer joins us live from beijing, a big story there, following what the state department calls a striking admission from russia's vladimir putin about his meeting with the leader of china. "morning joe" will be right back. leader of china. "morning joe" will be right back time. it's life's most precious commodity, especially when you have metastatic breast cancer. when your time is threatened, it's hard to invest in your future. until now. kisqali is helping women live longer than ever before when taken with an aromatase inhibitor or fulvestrant... in hr+, her2- metastatic breast cancer. kisqali is a pill that's proven to delay disease progression. kisqali can cause lung problems, or an abnormal heartbeat, which can lead to death. it can cause serious skin reactions, liver problems, and low white blood cell counts that may result in severe infections. tell your doctor right away if you have new or worsening symptoms, including breathing problems, cough, chest pain... a change in your heartbeat, dizziness, yellowing of the skin or eyes, dark urine, tiredness,

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russian president vladimir putin met china's leader xi jinping for the first in-person meeting since the invasion of ukraine. the two met on the sidelines of the shanghai cooperation organization summit in uzbekistan yesterday, where several other leaders including those from iran, india and pakistan took part. the meeting did not appear to go well for putin. xi pledged a friendship with no limits three weeks before russia invaded ukraine, the chinese president withheld public support for putin war yesterday.

putin acknowledges questions and concerns. after the meeting china issued a statement saying quote it is willing to work with russia to demonstrate the responsibility of a major country play a reading role and inject stability into a turbulent world. "the new york times" reports the scholars, it sounded like an implicit rebuke. the paper also notes so far this year, china appears to have refrained from shipping weapons to russia forcing moscow to ask iran and north korea for military equipment. it also has done little to help russia circumvent western sanctions. joining us from beijing, nbc news foreign correspondent, janis mackey frayer, good to see you. this is as close as it gets to humility from vladimir putin. you said you have questions and concerns. he said that to xi jinping, acknowledging that china does not support the war in ukraine

fully. china and russia still have strong strategic ties, vladimir putin and xi jinping share the same world view, especially when it comes to the united states, and they consider each other old friends. this meeting made it look like a very unequal partnership now. putin definitely had more at stake going into this meeting with xi. he's considered a pariah in the west and is pivoting to allies in the east. in beijing, he has not had public condemnation of the invasion but the extent of beijing's support hasn't been clear either. when putin made this rare admission that he was aware that china had concerns and questions, it revealed quite a lot. it shows that beijing is actually anxious about how the russian invasion is going. that it does not intend to offer further material support or

tactical support. and that beijing and especially xi jinping is not going to lean in too far to what could be a losing side. and russian forces are very much in retreat right now in ukraine. there's also more than moscow at play here. xi was in central asia for a chinese backed summit for leaders of post soviet republic, who are neighbors, trading partners and very uncomfortable with strengthening russia's footprint. i thought it was telling last night on the main news broadcast on cctv, in over 40 minutes of coverage, of xi jinping's trip to central asia, there was not one mention of the meeting with vladimir putin, and in the chinese readout of the meeting, the word ukraine was not used at all. so where this leaves putin is a bit unclear. he still has the support of china. china's still buying russian oil and gas.

they're doing heavy trade-in products. giving the diplomatic backing at the u.n., and amplifying russian propaganda here. but that support will only go so far when it serves chinese interests. and beijing as you mentioned is also being very cautious about showing de facto compliance with western sanctions because they don't want to trigger secondary sanctions here with the economy already weak from all of these covid restrictions and of course the very important communist party congress next month where xi jinping is expected to secure the precedent breaking third term in power. >> with the ukrainians making gains on the ground in ukraine, and western european nations and the united states fully committed at least for the short-term to funding ukrainians if russia has gone to china and found more of a frosty reception, what could it mean for him in his war effort. could it mean at some point that

he isn't able to make as much money out of his oil and gas experts if china were to decide to turn against russia in some way in its war effort in ukraine? >> putin did definitely come away from the meeting with far less. he went to this summit hoping to appear that he was still a global player, and still a super power. what he left with was a bit of a cold shoulder from the chinese president, and no promise of any tactical support or material support. the sort of support he needs right now. in terms of buying russian oil and gas, that will still continue to happen for china's part, but it's going to take a lot for russia to try to pivot the flow of oil and gas. it has always built its infrastructure toward europe, and now is having to change and build the infrastructure toward the east. so it's unclear whether putin

feels empowered by this meeting with xi jinping, the relationship is no weaker but certainly no stronger. >> janice, i was struck by the almost condescending language of the statement after which seemed to go worse than the actual meeting. the condescending language from china that russia needs to show quote the responsibility of a major country and they need to quote inject stability into the global system. this is quite striking. a remarkable statement in the fact that china is saying, you're destabilizing the world and you need to start acting like you're a major power. what is that driven by? is that, again, the fear of the sanctions? does china hope possibly to bring this war to a close at some point and to play a role in those negotiations?

>> that statement that it was so detached and the language is so formal was quite striking. these are two men who usually have quite a warm relationship when they are together. you'll remember in beijing in february, they released a 5,000 word manifesto and declared a partnership with no limits, but it appears the partnership does have limits. beijing is anxious about how the russian invasion is going. it doesn't want to back a loser. xi jinping does not want anything on his path to that third term in power, and part of the rationale of doing this trip to central asia, to a neighboring country, his first trip out of china since the beginning of the pandemic was that he could show himself as reemerging as the global statesman, that he could shore up his foreign policy credentials and show that those credentials for china go beyond

china's relationship with russia. xi jinping also doing some political maneuvering here at the expense, it seems, of vladimir putin. >> nbc janis mackey frayer in beijing, as always, thank you so much. jonathan lemire, again, the language from china striking, talking about the need for russia to show, quote, the responsibility of a major country. >> i don't think that's what he's looking for. >> no. and also them needing to inject stability into the global system. we've heard that america's relationship with china is fraying, but certainly when it comes to this war against ukraine, this invasion of ukraine by putin, the chinese leadership seems to be deferential to the needs and concerns of this country. >> yeah, u.s. officials carefully watching what happened yesterday. i was in touch with them as it was unfolding, noting that xi

jinping initially calls putin an old friend. u.s. officials were struck by the language that you just cited there in terms of china trying to keep its distance, and they repeated yesterday, they have seen no evidence that china has violated sanctions in order to supply russia with military equipment. now, they are still providing russia with financial backing, buying energy and other things from russia there. the u.s. dismayed that china is helping in that regard, and hasn't condemned the invasion. they think this further isolates putin on the world stage, and it comes of course just a few days before the united nations assembly gathers in new york, and going to use his speech to rally the world, not just keeping the west in line, and europe facing a cold winter. making sure they stay with ukraine, but also offering a bit of a scolding to the countries who haven't fully come on board. that includes china and india

and the like. this is a moment here where the u.s. feels like ukraine has momentum, they're going to have wins here heading into the winter, and they want to press as best they can. still ahead, fulton county's district attorney gives an update on the special grand jury probe into efforts to interfere in georgia's 2020 election results. what she's saying about the potential for jail time for certain individuals. plus, former secretary of state hillary clinton will be our guest this morning, and we have so much to talk with her about. "morning joe" is coming right back. about. "morning joe" is coming right back choosing a treatment for your chronic migraine - 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting 4 hours or more - can be overwhelming. so, ask your doctor about botox®. botox® prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine before they even start. it's the #1 prescribed branded chronic migraine treatment. so far, more than 5 million botox® treatments have been given to over eight hundred and fifty thousand chronic migraine patients.

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people of florida yet again. >> you saved our jobs. >> and kept us going. >> you had our backs. >> and honored our service. >> you led by facts, not fear. >> you made sure my son didn't turn g-a-y. >> thanks to you, i'm totally sold out of horse enemas. >> you made sure that i can teach my students that jesus rode dinosaurs. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> thank you, governor. >> thank you. >> thanks governor desantis. >> ron desantis for governor. paid for by trump nuts. >> by trump nuts, that's hysterical. and sad but true. 99% of all joking is true. >> is it really. >> welcome back to "morning joe," friday, september 16th, reverend al sharpton. >> that's a frightening stat. >> and the bbc's katty kay is with us from london, and joining

the conversation, executive editor of "the recount," john heilemann is with us. get ready, everybody. also with us, pulitzer prize winning columnist at "the washington post," eugene robinson. great to have you all with us this hour. >> we showed clips at the white house summit yesterday. talk about it and talk about your time with the president. >> you were there. >> what happened yesterday i thought was very very significant. during the whole funeral as much ass -- funeral services for the ten blacks killed in buffalo, i reached out to jonathan greenblatt at the antidefamation, we need to bring everybody together to show the attacks on asians, lgbtq, jews with the synagogue in pittsburgh and southern california, what's happening with blacks in buffalo, and with latinos and he and i reached out to the head of

lulack, at the asian group, and we wrote a letter to the white house saying we need to have a summit on race. and to his credit, president biden got ambassador susan rice, who has an impeccable staff, and they put together the first full day summit during his administration at the white house, all day we were there. the attorney general came and announced a new initiative against hate with funds and how they would deal with it. the head of homeland security did the same thing. the vice president opening up. the president was introduced by sandra bro, the mother of a man killed in hyattsville. he really went after the hate in the country. not just a feel good, let's denounce hate. congress needs to give me the power to do this but we already

are in the justice department, and homeland security, announced these things. it was the most substantiative things, and susan rice should be given a lot of credit. there was victims all over the country were represented. the buffalo victims family members were there, as well as the lgbtq from atlanta, and from el paso. it was multi -- it was very diverse, and it really showed that hate is a problem that is not just in one community. that all of us have to deal with it because if we are not collective, we'll be picked off one by one, and i think that message was sent at the highest level it could be sent yesterday because of this white house. >> wonderful. thank you, rev. let's get to our top story this hour. the fulton county district attorney gave an update on her office's investigations into efforts to overturn the 2020

election results in georgia. fani willis told "the washington post" quote the allegations are very serious. if indicted and convicted, people are facing prison sentences. willis confirmed to the paper she expects to wrap up the fact-finding stage of the inquiry before the end of the year. adding the probe will stop public activities, such as calling witnesses for the month before the midterms. when the special grand jury has finished hearing from witnesses, it will provide a report that could include recommendations for indictments. the group of known targets in the investigation includes former trump lawyer rudy giuliani, and the state's 16 would be trump electors who created unofficial documents proclaiming trump as the winner of georgia's electoral votes, even though he lost the state. lawyers for giuliani and the electors have denied any wrong

doing. many say, willie, this is the legal proceeding to watch. >> yeah, and of course, let's not forget donald trump himself is on tape on a phone call with the secretary of state there asking for the votes to be flipped so that he could win the state. it will be interesting to see how that factors into all of this. meanwhile, the former president is warning of what we calls big problems if the united states, if he is indicted for his mishandling of classified documents. here's what former president trump said yesterday on the hugh hewitt show. >> you know the old saying, a prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich if they want to. i'm just asking if there is such a prosecutor and they indict you, would that deter you from running for president again. >> i don't think the people of the united states would stand for it, and as you know if a thing like that happened, i would have no prohibition of running, you know that. >> i do, and that's what i wanted people to understand. that would not take you out of the arena. >> it would not, but i think if

it happened, i think you would have problems in this country the likes of which perhaps we've never seen before. i don't think the people of the united states would stand for it. >> what kind of problems, mr. president. >> i think you would have big problems. i just don't think they would stand for it. they will not sit still and stand for this ultimate of hoaxes. >> joe, there's the former president of the united states just saying out loud that if i'm indicted for taking records from the white house, stashing away at my beach club and obstructing efforts to get them back, i'll send my people into the streets. that's the sub text of what you're saying, and by the way, you've seen it before, i did it on january 6th. >> donald trump of course circulated around all of his followers the threats of riots by lindsey graham. lindsey saying that if donald trump is held to the same standard legally that he and

other members of congress would be held to, that republicans were going to riot in the streets later. trying to clean up that statement. he actually said there will be violence in the streets. i'm worried about violence in the street from republicans. i never thought that lindsey thought so little of his own party and if you actually enforced the law against somebody that there would be riots. we've seen it before. and john heilemann, you could go back to donald trump in 2016 talking about beating up people in protests, that he would pay for people if they beat up protesters. he loved it when people would be taken out in stretchers, like to punch somebody in the face. told cops before they put criminals or people they arrested into the back of police cars to bang their heads on the paddy wagon, showing how old he is, and you keep going on and on. the presidential debate, he's talking about of course proud boys stand by and then the

lindsey riots, the threat of riots, if you hold me accountable to the law, there will be riots, and now this. i'm still trying to figure out why people are using the term, what did biden say, semifascist. because this isn't semifascism. this is fascism. i mean, by any definition. >> it's a form of terrorism and a form of hostage taking and, you know, the whole history you just laid out is right. as is often the case, the people quickest to invoke the specter of violence, call forth actual violence, talk so freely about violence, to play the tough guy, that was the 2016 trump. every one of those rallies, and god knows how many i went to in

2016, i like it in the old days, somebody said that, they end up on a stretcher. he would like to see the level of rage in his audience. you could see him feed off that rage and stoke it again and again and again. and we're at the logical, you know, january 6th was the logical terminus of that, and we're past that, right. i can recall in that few days after the search seizure to use the proper terminology of the fbi at mar-a-lago, we had this reporting in the "new york times" that said he had called merrick garland on his behalf and convey a message to garland in the days after garland had approved the fbi going down to south florida. we need to do something to cool down the temperature in this country, i want to help you in that way. many people who are followers of trump, that's the threat. you really think he's going to

go there in that way, and now we see what we're seeing from lindsey graham and donald trump. couldn't be more clear, the hostage taking that was going on yesterday. he was basically saying, the country is not being hard of hip. he's not part of the country or a leader of the country. it's basically the framing there is nice country you all have there. it would be a shame if something happened to it. >> yeah. >> and eugene, this is a threat to merrick garland. as you're considering whether or not to bring charges, i can rally people to do what they did on january 6th. this is not loose talk. this is not an idle threat. and he's happy to reallily -- rally people in his defense in violence. >> we shouldn't be surprised.

we should be outraged that he actually goes there, but we shouldn't be surprised. this has been his pattern all along. he considers himself above the government. this is a man the nation once trusted to take care of the laws be faithful executed who does not believe in the law, does not believe the law applies to him. and so, yeah, of course he is once again calling out the mop. i mean, he is telling the proud boys to stand by, and get ready to come bang out in the streets if he is indicted for stealing highly classified documents from the white house and stashing them in his closet in mar-a-lago. and doing who knows what with them. it is another outrage from an outrage factory.

but certainly the none o. investigations should be deterred. >> a federal judge has appointed a third party to review the documents the fbi seized from former president donald trump's mar-a-lago home and club in florida. judge aileen cannon named raymond dearie as the special master. he's the senior u.s. district judge for the eastern district of new york. trump's attorneys had proposed dearie and justice department officials signalled their approval for him. among the responsibilities laid out by judge cannon will be to determine if any of the documents are protected by attorney/client or executive privilege. dearie has until november 30th to review the materials. judge cannon also denied the justice department's request for continued access to the more than 100 classified documents

seized from mar-a-lago to use in its ongoing criminal investigation. but the judge insisted her order does not restrict the government from continuing to review the seized materials for intelligence classification and national security assessments or from briefing members of congress. specifically she said the order blocks the doj from presenting materials to a grand jury and using them for witness interviews, for a criminal investigation pending the special master's recommendations. the doj is expected to appeal the ruling to the 11th circuit court of appeals. >> for palm beach county, florida, dave aaronberg, legal experts from the left to center to right are condemning what this federal judge has done.

william barr obviously among them. i'm curious, what are your thoughts on yesterday's rulings. >> joe, why should anyone be surprised. there's a reason why trump's legal team traveled 68 miles to the north of palm beach county to get to fort pierce because judge cannon is the only judge assigned to that courthouse. she's a trump appointee confirmed a woke after trump lost the election, and she gave him what he wanted and more. you could tell from the beginning when she tipped her hand where this was going. she was likely to grant the special master before the department of justice had a chance to respond to the motion, and when she issued her final order, she not only granted the special master, she gave trump more than what he asked for by putting this halt on to the investigation, when it comes to the review and use of the documents seized from mar-a-lago, and so, yeah, she gave trump more than he asked

for, and we're supposed to be surprised, shocked to find gamble going on here. she allowed the overall investigation to continue. doj can't use the documents seized from mar-a-lago. she allowed the fbi to continue to be part of the intelligence community's risk assessment. that's really important, to find out the damage caused by keeping these documents at mar-a-lago, and also she did appoint a well-respected federal judge as special master. i suspect judge dearie will finish before the november 30th deadline. it's not all bad. >> what's interesting to me, gene, is the fact that she so clearly went against existing precedent, and fairly recent precedent regarding donald trump claiming executive privilege out of office. she's clearly -- >> that's the part i just don't

understand. >> i would be really surprised if she weren't reversed by the circuit and then the u.s. supreme court. >> that's really my question going forward. this is not out of left field. this ruling is from outer space. it's from different reality where former presidents have some sort of executive privilege, when they're no longer president. they don't have executive privilege, and leaving aside the question of executive privilege to keep stuff away from the executive branch, which is not generally the use of executive privilege, loving all that aside, you asked exactly my question for dave which is, look ahead to the 11th circuit, and this looks like this has to be appealed. this can't be allowed to stand in its present form.

it's very conservative. in appeals court. yet, there are real actual judges on it who have actual experience and who know the law. so how do you see it coming down? this is a tough one. doj clearly has the better of the argument. six out of the 11 judges were appointed by donald trump, and i know chief justice roberts says it doesn't matter who appointed federal judges but judge cannon is teaching us a far different lesson. i think it needs to be appealed. the worst part of this ruling is the fact that judge cannon didn't accept that the documents which have classified markings and some of them have the red and yellow colors that blaze out top secret and fbi, she didn't accept that they were classified documents, and despite there was an unchallenged affidavit

included by doj from the head of the fbi's counter intelligence division that these were classified documents. she ignored that and bought trump's argument of who are you going to believe, me or your lies eyes. these delays are okay. >> go ahead. sorry. >> i was going to say, you're exactly right, and it's really one of the most troubling parts of the ruling for me. state attorney for palm beach county, dave aaronberg, thank you so much. truly bizarre things that dave brought up, john heilemann, the fact that you have a judge, a district court judge who just got appointed after trump lost on the bench for a year or so going you know what, we can't really trust the intel agencies

to properly mark what is top secret. we don't know that. and then on top of that, she's talking about leaks. did donald trump write this opinion. it's bizarre, and i'm sure she's sitting here thinking that this -- maybe she's thinking pause nothing else seems to be make sense, this is her pathway if trump gets reelected to a higher court. all she's doing is make herself radio active because she's going to be reversed and she's done things that intel experts are saying puts america's national security at risk. i wouldn't want that hanging over me as a new judge. >> no, but that's because you would presumably exhibit some degree of faithfulness. >> of the law. i'd actually follow the law. >> right. yeah, i mean, look, it's like i

swear that thing that dave pointed to that you just talked about where she basically saying, trump came into my court in one of the most naked examples of forum shopping i have ever seen. he came here looking for something. i don't care what this looks like. i'm not just going to rule in his favor. i'm not just going to give him more than he asked for. i'm going to write my opinion that the documents that have been stamped classified, reviewed by the intel community and identified as classified, the basis of the warrant is classified. they are brought back in the search, they found them to be classified. she in her courtroom says you know what, all of that, and the big bright red letters, classified stamped on the documents, she's like i'm not sure those documents are classified. that is literally the trumpiest thing that a trump judge has

ever written. it's the pure essence of the kind of judicial corruption that trump has brought on the court system, and you know, the reason you wouldn't do it, and the reason we're stunned by it, you're a country lawyer, and i'm a poor country pumpkin, we used to say, that's the thing about judges, they often depart from the person who appointed them. you can never count on it. you know, that day has passed now. a lot of these judges and this one first and foremost are political hacks. she doesn't care about the stuff that any other judge would care about. >> but also there are a lot of, just for balance here, judges appointed by donald trump whoch who have followed the law, despite what the outcome is, whether they go for or against trump. >> i would say i'm with john roberts, john heilemann, john roberts said there aren't trump

judges, there aren't obama judges. there are federal judges and that is my presumption going in. i give that presumption to a federal judge because i think federal judges deserve that. 64 challenges in the federal courts and every one of those challenges on election issues was struck down, and usually harshly, including by extremely idealogically conservative trump justices and trump judges on the supreme court and the federal court system, and i must say also, growing up, i always found it interesting and my republican friends in the past always found it interesting that if there was a ruling that went against what people in the media wanted, they would point out if it was a republican judge but if it went the other way, they rarely pointed out it was a democratic judge, so maybe that's one of the reasons i say sit back,

wait, like john roberts, don't call them trump judges or obama judges, i say all of that as an incredibly long wind up to say that despite that, and i think that's why it really bothers me. that's why it upsets me because they have so much faith in the judicial branch that you would have somebody besmirching the federal courts the way this one judge did. >> right. joe, you would agree with me, regardless of whether you think that that's -- i wish that was true across the board. i agree there have been examples heartening examples. they have ruled against donald trump, god bless them. in this case, though, i think we can all agree. this is a trump judge acting like a trump judge. still ahead on "morning joe." another person is turning over

documents to federal investigators. we'll tell you who it is. and at the top of the next hour, we're going to be joined by former secretary of state, hillary clinton. plus, this the a -- this is a live look at westminster hall where people are piling in to pay their final respects to queen elizabeth. they have been doing this through the night. we'll show you the unbelievable line they have been waiting in to say good-bye to the late monarch. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back: . 's most precious commodity, especially when you have metastatic breast cancer. when your time is threatened, it's hard to invest in your future. until now. kisqali is helping women live longer than ever before when taken with an aromatase inhibitor or fulvestrant... in hr+, her2- metastatic breast cancer.

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they continue their tour of the united kingdom ahead of the funeral on monday of queen elizabeth in london. there is the king working the crowd in just his, well, one week since becoming the king of england. more on that just ahead. joining us now, republican candidate from california state controller. lonnie chen served as policy director for the 2012 mitt romney presidential campaign and is romney's chief policy adviser. it's great to see you. jumping into the race here. let's start with the first question, which is what does the state controller do, what is that position? >> it's essentially the chief financial officer of california, the person responsible for making sure that taxpayer dollars are accounted for, and ensuring that frankly, there's a watchdog, as many challenges and issues as we have in our state, the folks who set up our state government made the decision they needed someone who was going to watch out for taxpayers first, and that's essentially

what the job description is. >> as you say, the state of california has one of the biggest economies not just in the country, but in the world. it's a daunting task to keep track of that budget i'm sure. what are some of the central issues you're concerned about and made you jump into the race. >> you know, accountability really for all the spending we have. we had during the pandemic period massive amounts of money from the state of california to the federal government. some for education, some for ensuring people were taken care of during that time, and unfortunately a lot of the accountability is missing for that federal money. that's the first thing. i would say the second thing, major cities like san francisco and l.a., the tragedy homelessness that strikes our state in too many places, these are the kinds of issues we can make sure. finally there's accountability in terms of state spending. for too many years, i don't think there has been. these challenges are personal to me, as somebody who grew up in

california, and who has seen the challenges created by bad public policy in too many places. >> lonnie, congratulations on jumping into the frey, doesn't california have a rather large budget surplus, and what is your thought about that money, should it been returned to taxpayers or should it be spent to address some of these problems that you mentioned, homelessness. there are a zillion climate-related crises happening in california and all the time. do you have policy ideas? >> well, eugene, the reality is that we're going from a 97 1/2 billion dollars surplus this year to a deficit posture over the next couple of years, and that's just because of the fact that we have a tax system that's highly reliant on capital gains and people paying large amounts

of personal income tax, and highly reliant on the federal money i mentioned earlier. while we are in a good budget situation now, and we would be wise to look at long-term priorities, praur, and making sure some of the challenges we have in the state in the long run are addressed, i think that for now, really what we've got to be focused on, how do we bring stability to our budget situation and make sure the longer term issues, infrastructure, pensions, those issues get addressed. i think the problem we have in politics, generally, i'm going outside california for a minute is that politicians tend to think short run, what can i do right now to make my poll numbers better. what can i do to make my politics better, as opposed to thinking what's in the best interest of the state and the country more broadly as we move on, and those aren't the kinds of things people like to focus on. they like to focus on short-term spending and short-term hits.

that's not the posture we need in our state and country. >> by and large, they're shoring up positions across the country. california is perhaps an exception where it looks almost like a one-party state. is there room for a republican in a position of influence like this in california? >> i would hope there is. the reality is there is a need for an independence in evaluating state spending. the controller is not predominantly -- it's a watchdog role. there isn't an opportunity to say wait a second is this money being spent in a way we intended it to be spent. this is the reason why i have gotten the endorsement of 17 newspapers across the state of california. editorial boards who agree it's time to take an independent look at what's going on. regardless of politics, regardless of party, and i think that's what we need more of in

more places are problem solvers. not. thank you so much for coming on the show. good to see you. still ahead, president biden today will meet with the families of brittney griner and paul whelan as the administration works to secure their release from russia. we'll get a live report from the white house ahead of that meeting as well as the growing friction over security at the southern border. we'll also get a live report from martha's vineyard as the massachusetts community mobilizes to accommodate dozens of migrants unexpectedly flown on to the island, sent there by republican governors. also healed, dinners with ruth, award winning legal affairs correspondent nina totenberg joins us with her new memoir about her relationship with the late supreme court justice ruth baden ginsberg.

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it's 40 past the hour. let's get one of the morning's must read opinion pages into the show here. columnist for usa today, has one entitled ron desantis's martha vineyard stunt uses migrants as pawns, helping no one. it's possible to believe that america's immigration system is broken and creating a humanitarian crisis, while also condemning the behavior of governors using planes and buses to shuttle men, women and

children across the country like cattle to score political points among people aroused by cruelty. schlepping humans and families including families with young children around and dumping them, it's just scoring points with a social media obsessed swath of the population addicted to a steady drip of opportunistic cruelty, and dehumanization. this is a party and governors are part of a republican party that has a border issue as it pertains to abortion because of where they stand on the issue. they have so many issues that they are not in step with the rest of america. like guns, they don't have any wins. behind them. and so this is their click bait, their headline grabber. the only thing is when you see a baby in the arms of a mother

who's already made a horrible trek to this country from a country that she is escaping and then she's being flown somewhere and misled about what the reason is as to where she's going to, being told it's going to be better for her, just being dropped in the middle of nowhere, really? >> the term is political human trafficking where you are dumping people on to a bus or a plane. and sending them to destinations because you want to own the libs. >> in a country where a woman with a fetus inside of her with no brain has to travel a thousand miles to get an abortion. >> yeah. >> because the state she's in denies her that health care. >> but look at these pictures. look at the people of martha's vineyard like the people of new york and washington and other cities that have been taken care of these migrants.

talked to the reverend al earlier genesis 50:20, you intended to harm me. and it fits these pictures so well, doesn't it? >> it certainly does, and the reception that these migrants, these poor people were given in martha's vineyard, just to take that one example was clearly nothing like the republicans thought. in fact, the community totally opened its arms. there were more volunteers to help out in taking care of this group of people than they had -- than they could accommodate, including ap spanish students who came in, high school students who came to serve as translators. i believe house them overnight in a church, and now they have

just a swarm of volunteers. helping people get what they need and figuring out what the next step is. i thought that was the way christ said we should treat the stranger, but maybe they read a different bible. >> and the story of the good samaritan is pretty straightforward. you don't traffic humans, put for political gain to own the libs or to go after people that you don't like in other places. it really is strange, and john heilemann, this is just the latest example of republicans being so desperately out of touch with political reality you could go back to uvalde and the horrors of uvalde. you had republicans coming out defending an 18-year-old, crazy

18-year-old's right to go in and buy a weapon of war after dobbs and the overturning of a 50-year right to privacy. you have republicans proudly going out and passing legislation that chases 10-year-old girls who have been raped out of their state or else they would have forced births compelled by the state, and, you know, you look at -- you look obviously the rights, january 6th, you look at the reaction to trump, and the threat of future rights, and now you look at this. again, they're doing everything wrong. if they looked at the numbers, most americans are deeply offended by harsh treatment of immigrants. >> yeah, i mean, it's almost as if like extremists are getting

extreme. the republican party is being the only thing it knows how to be, which is an extremist party, and i think, you know, democrats in many cases over many years, and particularly we saw the effects of it in 2016, when i think the tone deafness about the reality of the immigration challenges the country has are a part of why donald trump got elected in 2016. since then, the ridiculousness of republicans who took some legitimate policy points that they had on their side and certainly ones that politically cut in the american electorate, you saw, remember back in 2018, donald trump thought the way that he could save republicans in the midterms was by stirring up, paranoia, craziness and fear about the caravans, that was the last thing at the end of the 2018 issue, the immigration issue by scaring people, riling people up. that was supposed to be the republicans salvation in a year moving against them, didn't work.

the attempt to fear monger about the wall and other things in 2020 did not work for donald trump, did not work for the republican party, and yet, they go back to this play book, even in the face of all the things you said where they have extreme themselves into a corner, and lost so much ground, and so much momentum in these midterm elections. it's still the case they're likely to end up in the house of representatives, a notion of a red wave, gone. democrats stand a good chance of holding the senate, picking up a couple of seats. they have an outside chance of holding on to the house. the republicans are an extremist party who are doing extreme things and allowing democrats to create this broad national narrative of extremism and this is just another example. whatever you think about immigration policy, the biden administration not having handled the border well, there are many democrats who think that. no one is in favor of this inhumanity to make a cheap

political point and the last thing i'll say, republicans thought they were making a political point with this. they made a political point when you saw the pictures from martha's vineyard, new york, and other cities where this is going on, the political point is you guys are extreme and we will help these people when they come to our ports, whether it's martha's vineyard, new york city or hartford, connecticut, it's a powerful political point. not the one republicans wanted to make. >> there are questions how this game kogt. -- together. we got new reporting yesterday. republican governor greg abbott of texas sent two buses of migrants to washington where vice president kamala harris and her live, of course, about two dozen men and women holding on to belongings in clear plastic bags stood outside the naval observatory before they were moved to a nearby church. as we have been discussing,

governor desantis of florida directed two planes carrying dozens of migrants to martha's vineyard, the texas tribune reports migrants landing in virginia told reporters they did not know where they were, they thought they were going to different destinations. they were lured on to the plane with the promise of being able to get work papers. the 15 migrants including seven children. a woman in texas approached him and his family saying she was from an immigration organization that could connect them with sanctuary cities in massachusetts. he said he has an immigration court date on september 21st in los angeles. >> oh, my god. >> he told the paper quote, i think this is all a ploy to get us to miss our court dates so we get in trouble with the law, and neck deport us. so what you have in this case is people, migrants who have been through hell just to get to texas, being told the promised land awaits you, get on this plane, massachusetts, new york,

you're going to be taken care of. they're better equipped to do it than we are here. good luck, get on the plane and landing on an island they weren't told they were going to, nor did the people on the island know they were coming many ways taking care of them. >> right. if these people do miss their court date they do get into trouble with the law. and it is all a ruse to have them classified as criminals automatically so they can be locked up or instantly deported? my gra we have a refugee living with us at home in washington at the moment. they need help with everything. if people do not open their doors to them, they have nothing to fall back on. and these people being sent up to martha's vineyard, luckily they have found them, but there's kids in this group. i saw this group came from venezuela. part of me started thinking what is ron desantis thinking?

one of the big reasons that florida and particularly southern florida turned so solidly republican in the last few years has been precisely because of venezuelans. venezuelans who came out of the maduro regime, who are anti-left wing and have now embraced america and reacted against barack obama trying to be nice -- not doing enough. one of those venezuelans who is sitting in southern florida who controlled to some extent the politics of southern florida thinking as they see their compatriots who are also fleeing nicolas maduro being shipped off in an airplane up to martha's vineyard. i'm not even sure it helps ron desantis that much. this could backfire against them with the very people in southern florida who are not going to be happy about the way the venezuelans are being treated. >> all right. still ahead on "morning joe," early on in her career covering

the supreme court, npr's nina totenberg formed what would become a long-lasting friendship with the late justice ruth bader ginsburg. nina joins us next to talk about her new book "dinners with ruth." at the top of the hour, former secretary of state hillary clinton will be our guest. we'll talk with her about the state of the democratic party with less than two months to go until the midterm elections. the plus her brand-new project for apple tv plus. "morning joe" is coming right back. ["only wanna be with you" by hootie & the blowfish] find your beat your moment of calm find your potential then own it support your immune system with a potent blend of nutrients and emerge your best every day with emergen-c

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if you're going to be a lawyer and just practice your profession, you have a skill, so you're very much like a plumber. but if you want to be a true professional, you will do something outside yourself, something to repair tears in

your community, something to make life a little better for people less fortunate. that's what i think a meaningful life is. one lives for not just one's self but for one's community. >> that was then supreme court justice ruth bader ginsburg addressing an audience in stanford, california in 2017. during the talk she spoke about memorable legal cases based on gender equality as well as about memorable role models in her life, and about the trail blazing women lawyers and judges who inspired her during her legendary legal career. our next guest knew ruth bader ginsburg on a personal level and as a friend for multiple decades. npr legal affairs correspondent nina totenberg joins us now. she's out with a new book titled

"dinners with ruth." thank you very much for coming on the show and sharing this with us. i love the concept of the power of friendships and learning about the power of this friendship that you had. i just wanted to start by asking you, what do you think your friend would be thinking and saying if she were alive today and saw what was happening, especially on the abortion issue? >> well, we know what she thought about the abortion issue. she actually testified about her views on it when she was confirmed to be on the supreme court. and her view was that it was a woman's right to personal autonomy to determine whether or not she would have or not have a child. and she was very clear on it when she was confirmed. >> yeah. a lot has changed. so, share with us if you can about the power of the friendship that you had with the

late supreme court justice and why you decided to write this book. >> well, i got talked into writing this book, in fact, when somebody else had the idea, and the idea of this book is that the women of my generation were not trying to break a glass ceiling. we were just trying to get a foot in the door, to get a chance to show what we could do as professionals. and ruth bader ginsburg was one of those. i write about lots of other friendships with men and women who helped me along the way and who were wonderful people i got to know. other justices, republicans and democrats, including justice scalia, for example, who was i was incredibly fond of. he was, i think, quite fond of me. and these are extraordinary people. one of the great things about being a reporter is to be a

witness to history. to be part of that history, the supreme court's history, and to watch justice ginsburg when she wasn't a justice, she changed the way america is for women. at the time she began, there were hundreds if not thousands of state, local and federal laws that overtly discriminated against women. and she was the architect of the legal battle that eradicated those laws. and that's an extraordinary thing she did for all women. >> and in terms of the friendship that you have with her, i know during her last year you shared many small dinners together. saturdays at your house were reserved for ruth. >> right. >> but she helped you over the years through many different types of times in your life, including very trying times. can you share with us how she

helped you through grief? >> well, when my late husband fell and had sustained a terrible head injury, he was really very compromised for about 4 1/2 years. and he was in the hospital for months on end. she said to me at one point, it was the best advice i think anybody gave me. she said, nina, you're haunting the hospital. if you do that, you will lose yourself. you need to go for an hour a day, maybe at the beginning of the day and the end of the day, make sure he's being properly taken care of. but he will come home and you will need to take care of him when he comes home. you'll only be able to do that if you go back to work. she said it may not be your best work, but it will be good enough. you'll be there for him when he needs you at home. and that's exactly what i did and what happened. >> nina, in the many conversations you had with her,

did you ever ask her, particularly in that last year of her life, whether she was thinking of stepping down early? the supreme court is the way it is, and dobbs happened in part because amy coney barrett is on the court because ruth bader ginsburg died when she did. did you ever have a discussion with her to step down early, giving somebody else, a democrat to replace her? >> president obama had that conversation with her. gently i suggested, i think in 2013 he had lunch with her and gently suggested she think about it. at the time, she was at the top of her game, she wasn't sick. because there was a filibuster at the time, she didn't think anybody good would be confirmed. she didn't want to leave. she rolled the dice and she lost. she wanted to give the chance to

the first woman president who she thought, i think, would be hillary clinton to replace her, but that didn't happen. as i said, she gambled and lost. in the last year of her life, of course, it was too late. donald trump was president. and i think that she -- we never discussed this. but my surmise is that she would not have subjected herself to some of the things that she did in an effort to stay alive if she thought it would -- if she thought that somebody else was president and could name somebody that she was more happy with. she tried her best. she couldn't do it. you know, she did say her last wish was that nobody replace her until after the election. she died just weeks before the election. but that was not to be. >> the new book is "dinners with ruth: a memoir on the power of friendships."

npr legal affairs correspondent, nina totenberg, thank you very much for sharing. thank you. it's now one minute past the top of the third hour of "morning joe." let's dive into our next guest. joining us now, former secretary of state hillary clinton. next week the clinton global initiative returns for the first time since 2016, conveing global leaders for conversations about the world's most pressing challenges and do we have so many, joe. >> yeah. madam secretary, thank you very much for being with us. let's talk about -- let's talk about the news of the day first. and a place that you know and love very, very much, martha's vineyard. what i've been calling political human trafficking. taking advantage of migrants who are already suffering, who are trying to figure out the best

way forward, who are fleeing terrible situations. being used as political props and being treated horribly and they wind up actually in a place like martha's vineyard. what happens? the doors of the churches fly open. the doors of the community halls fly open, and the people of martha's vineyard are so grateful to be able to lend a helping hand. what does that mean for you personally? >> well, i think, joe, you have laid out the craziness of the time in which we're living where some politicians would rather not only have an issue but exacerbate it to the extent of literally human trafficking, as you said. so many other americans -- i happen to believe still the majority of americans -- are good-hearted and generous and when people end up on their doorstep in need, they're going

to respond. they'll feed them and house them and the kids in the ap spanish class will be let out of high school so they can go and translate. that's the kind of american spirit that we try to celebrate at the clinton global initiative. let's roll up our sleeves and get things done. joe, it's so clear that despite efforts -- when i was in the senate, i think probably when you were in congress, there was a lot of talk about immigration reform. we kept trying to get close. in fact, the senate, when i was there, we passed a bill to actually deal with this. nobody wants open borders who has any idea of how government is, and countries work. but nobody wants inhumane terrible treatment of human beings either. what we should have been doing is to come together to reform change and better fund the system by which we deal with these issues. but some people, like the governor of texas, would rather

have an issue than be part of a solution. >> we've also, this morning, told the story of somebody else traveling a thousand miles, really against their will. >> oh, my god. >> a woman in louisiana who found out her fetus doesn't have a skull. and the doctors were afraid to operate because of the charges that they would face. i, of course, think about the poor -- the tragic story of the 10-year-old girl in ohio who was forced to flee her state because the state was going to have a forced pregnancy of the rapist's baby. this is driving many people who have associated with the pro-life movement their entire life going this is extreme. this can't happen. how serious is this for women and let's just say people who

love women and girls, to no longer have any control as a family over what happens? >> it could not be more serious and more deadly. i have been saying ever since really the draft opinion was made public, but certainly since the decision, that a very small minority is going to keep pushing this to the extreme and now we're seeing it. where doctors are intimidated, that if they practice their profession, if they do no harm by saving a mother's life, by ending a totally unviable pregnancy, they could go to jail. this is dystopian. this is the handmaid's tale, and that's why you're seeing so many women registered to vote, some for the first time, and so many young people. we saw what happened in the

special election in new york. we saw what happened with the referendum in kansas and the congressional election in alaska. you know, pro-life means you honor life. that includes the life of the mother. and it includes absolutely making decisions that are in the best interests of women. so i think this election, this midterm election is going to have a lot of energy from women and men who don't want the government, don't want politics like abbott or someone else coming into their lives, into the intimacy of their relationship and telling them that they have to carry a child to term that is forced birth regardless of the circumstances. so, it's a terrible thing. i fear women are going to be harmed and even unfortunately die because of this terrible decision. but let's do what we can to prevent it from causing more

harm by voting out people who think they should have control over our lives. >> good morning, secretary clinton. speaking of the stakes of the midterm elections and the next presidential election. when you and i got together for a conversation last year, you warned if donald trump was not held accountable, it could be the end of democracy, as you put it. and if people in congress support his agenda or think the way he does, that would also contribute to that. so i'm curious what you've made of the justice department's handling of the mar-a-lago documents. the fact that the president and his team took those classified documents from the white house, put them in his beach club, obstructed efforts to get them back for more than a year. do you believe the justice department will hold him accountable? >> well, i certainly hope so. i mean, part of the rule of law means nobody's above it and nobody's below it. we should all be treated equally

before the law. even an ex-president who has defied the law, who has handled/mishandled obviously classified documents is not someone who should get away with doing that kind of behavior. you know, at the end of the day, i had zero classified materials on -- and all the fuss that was made about what i did and all the rest of it. at the end of the day, after the fbi investigations, two state department investigations, one under tillerson, one under pompeo, frankly looking for something to hold me accountable for, there was nothing there. this is the worst example of arrogance and just a sense of impunity that i can remember in recent history from anybody in a high position. so, the justice department is doing what they're supposed to be doing, which is recovering

classified material, analyzing them to try to figure out what damage has been caused. i mean, as a senator, as a secretary of state, i was privy to classified materials. and, you know, they hold some of our nation's most important information, our secrets. and when we heard that there might be a document that had information about the nuclear posture of either an ally or adversary, the stakes could not be higher. certainly the justice department needs to vigorously pursue this and follow the facts and the evidence wherever they might lead. if that leads to accountability for the former president, that's exactly where they should go. >> what do you think, secretary clinton, when you hear elected officials, many of them prominent senators, some of them calling for you to be put in prison for having the server in your home, now saying of this

incident, well, it's a bookkeeping issue, it's a storage problem. there's nothing to see here. lindsey graham saying if you indict this former president, watch out, there will be riots in the street. obvious hypocrisy but dangerous, too. what do you make when you hear those things? >> exactly what you just said. dangerous hypocrisy. i served with a number of the people who say these kinds of things, honestly, you know, i don't know how they can live with themselves. i don't understand how they can be enthralled to such a fraud and con artist like donald trump. i just don't get it. i don't know what he has on them. i don't know what they expect to get from him. i don't understand their fear. so, it's a mystery to me. it's a mystery, though, with huge implications. if you go back and read history, and we are reminded of that by, you know, incredible historians like timothy snyder, look at how

these kinds of authoritarian totalitarian regimes get started. they get started by a demagogue and an authoritarian demanding feality not just to himself but to reality. we saw that with alternative facts about the size of the crowd became the argument that the white house was making to overlook the fact that there wasn't that big of a crowd. it continues through today where people who you would think not only know better but would want to do better are siding with this outrageous and i believe probably illegal use of classified material. it's a mystery to me but a dangerous mystery that you have the republican party still enabling the fantasies and the power-hungry dreams of the

former president. >> the questions you have are so important, especially what does he have -- why? why? and we'll continue to follow that. curious what you have at cgi on tap. the clinton global initiative, back again. what can we expect? >> well, it's very exciting because when it was in full operation, we had thousands of commitments that touched the lives of more than 435 million people in 180 countries. this wasn't just a talk fest. i love to go to conferences where we talk, but this was a model of philanthropy that bill created and they would make commitments for what they would do when they walked out of the meeting. he changed philanthropy in a way that i think is still making

waves. and bringing together government, business, civil society, non-profits, the faith community, bringing everybody together to find partners to really make an impact and improving peoples lives. when it ended, we thought, okay, that was a great experience. but people kept coming up saying you got to bring it back and we want to be a part of something bigger than ourselves. we want to show we can come together and find solutions for difficult problems. we will be bringing partners, commitmentmakers together to look at what we can do on all levels, on climate change, on health equity, including reproductive rights and on the economy. how do we keep making it more inclusive to create greater prosperity. we'll have leaders from across the world. we'll have celebrities, and we'll have really hard-working people who know what they're doing from business and the not

for profit sector to lead the way. i could not be more excited or proud of my husband for bringing it back at a time when i think we all need to feel that our problems as big as they are are not overwhelming. we're americans, we get things done when we put our mind to it. enough with the nonsense of sending these poor venezuelans to martha's vineyard or excusing a former president who has stolen classified information that belongs to our country. let's get together and do some things that will show we're still in the game and we're at the top of our game. >> and one of the areas that we've been able to do that as a country, and i pointed out -- yes, even in a bipartisan approach, is how we've helped the ukrainian people. >> strengthen nato. >> we strengthened nato. a huge change over the past couple of years. that leads to my question about what cgi can do about the worst

refugee crisis in europe since world war ii. what can you all do to help alleviate the suffering brought on by that invasion? >> well, we're actually going to be talking about that, joe. we're bringing together some of the people who are already on the ground, like jose andreas who has been on the ground from the beginning feeding people both inside ukraine and refugees. and others like david milliband who runs the international rescue committee who has also been on the ground. we want to know, number one, what's working and what partners do you need to do even more? to take it to greater scale? the suffering and the human horror of what the russians have been doing to the ukrainian people just is beyond my imagination. we need to put real boots on the ground in the humanitarian arena as well as helping those brave

ukrainians who are defending their country. let me just say one other thing. i think here is where joe biden and his team deserve an enormous amount of credit. you're right, joe, nato was -- nato was really confused after four years of trump. i honestly believe if he had somehow managed to end up back in the white house that he would have pulled us out of nato. what biden had to do was to rebuild that alliance and bring people back to the table where we could be in a position to support ukraine with strong sanctions, with military equipment and means. and now we're going to have to figure out how to not only continue to alleviate the suffering, but to help them rebuild in the future. i wanted to ask about vladimir putin, a man who took you off his christmas card list several years ago and was so nervous about you being commander in chief that he tried to interfere in the 2016 election. >> yeah. >> by the way, as we point out

every day, despite the fact people still talk about a "russian hoax" you had a marco rubio-led senate intel committee saying that donald trump's campaigns, contacts with the russians posed "a grave counterintelligence threat." i am curious though now what your take is -- we have a "wall street journal" right here, vladimir putin meeting president xi. not a good meeting yesterday. xi didn't even bring it up, didn't bring up ukraine. afterwards, the statement from china was cold, saying they expected russia to behave like a major world power and to inject stability into the world order. dark days for vladimir putin? what is ahead, do you think?

>> well, i think xi could not have been clearer in trying to give putin an off-ramp. you are absolutely characterizing the meeting from everything that we've learned. and i think in part because xi has seriously a plan for as much domination that china can possibly achieve in the world. and this is interrupting it. so he wants putin to probably pull back and stop because it interfered with what i believe were his very determined plans to take over taiwan. it interfered with the energy markets because we actually pulled together a real coalition to try to put russian oil and gas at a higher risk to use and cost. so i really believe that putin

has to be recalibrating. but he's an immensely stubborn man. he is going to, i hope, listen to voices that are increasing from inside russia and then outside voices of those he either respects or fears like xi to realize that he can't continue this invasion and expect to, number one, achieve his goal, which was to take over ukraine. but number two, to even hold a lot of the territory that he has seized because you cannot control -- we learned this -- you cannot control territory of a determined population that will not ever let you rest. you won't be able to sleep without fear of assassination. you won't be able to walk down the street. you won't be able to go, you know, get a cup of coffee. you will always be at risk. and he's got to understand that it's bad for russia and i think

bad for him. but whether or not he believes that or accepts that or acts on it, we're going to see. >> all right. now for something completely different. earlier this month "gutsy" a new docu-series produced by you and your daughter chelsea premiered on apple tv plus. in have these intimate conversations with women of all backgrounds and professions. you put yourselves in their shoes. it's really fun. the first episode, you discussed the power of humor and one woman who was very important to both of us and never afraid to throw a proverbial punch, take a look. >> you know who i think has made great use of humor, her work at the highest levels, you know her very well, former secretary madeleine albright, our dear friend. >> i must have done fairly well as the first woman secretary of

state because these days they hardly even consider men for that job. >> she mastered the art of literally speaking and making points, often humorous ones, with the pins she wore. this started after the first gulf war when one of saddam hussein's henchmen called her a serpent. so the next time she went to see saddam hussein, she wore a big serpent pin, which was an elegant but smart way of making the point, look, i'm listening and i'm watching. going to negotiate with the russians over an anti-ballistic missile treaty, she went wearing a missile. >> what do i have that looks like a nuclear warhead?

>> one of the russians said, oh, is that one of the missiles you have aimed at us? >> rather pointed. >> no, you just better watch it. >> first of all, you are such a great storyteller and you have so many incredible stories. i know you interview huge stars and there's so many different types of gutsy women who you interview. but what i'm interested in here and what we see here is you. a completely different side of you. you're so relaxed, so funny, so off the cuff. it's a different side of you. i wonder if the collaboration with chelsea is the twinkle in your eye. i just recently collaborated with my daughter on something for know your value, i'm still flying high. you really -- you really come out in this in a very different, fun -- not that you're not fun -- >> i was going to say. >> -- but fabulous.

rich, robust storytelling and joy. what was it about this series that you enjoyed so much? was it working with your daughter? >> oh, mika, i think it was. most important reason, it was such an incredible experience to spend all that time with my grown-up daughter, the mother of my three wonderful grandchildren. and, you know, we did this during covid. and they were living with us any way. so it just became an amazing adventure together. the other thing i suppose is that -- i did get pretty far outside my usual comfort zone because i never have been on that side of the camera, which you know much more about. but i loved hearing about these stories from the women that we highlight. as you say, some are very famous. some not so. but you will be so entranced by

who they are and what they have overcome. it just made me so happy that i could use the platform i have to shine this light on these women who i think are incredibly brave in their own ways and i hope the audience will say, hey, i can relate to that. or, you know, that helps me think through how to be gutsier. at the end of the day, i think we all have those moments in our lives when we have to step up and make gutsy decisions. we all have lots to learn from each other if we listen. >> it's so fun. >> let me just say, mika, i didn't need an apple plus series to know that the secretary is fabulous and fun. >> well, we definitely have seen so many sides of her on the campaign trail. but this is really different. >> it is fun. >> i think it's the chelsea factor. >> well, i think you're absolutely right. look, when you're on a tightrope like i was the first woman, you

know, running for president, i mean, it is so -- you know, overwhelming. you know, you're trying so hard because you know that you're representing so many people, their hopes and their dreams. you don't want to mess up. it -- it is a totally different circumstance than, you know, hanging outgoing canoeing down a river with a former white supremacist or making acorn soup with an amazing, you know, native american judge or watching my daughter hold the hose with the women firefighters from the fire department of new york. i mean, i -- i understand that because i was so focused on trying to do the best job i could do, being the first woman with a real chance to become our first woman president, yeah, was i fun, loose and having a good time all the time?

no. i was just really serious when i was warning people about what might happen. it wasn't a lot of fun to say, hello people, wake up, this man is really dangerous. [ laughter ] >> yeah. exactly. cici understands what i'm saying. >> i know she does. former secretary of state, hillary clinton, thank you so much. thank you. we can't wait to hear all the great things that come out of cgi this weekend. >> thank you. thank you so much. take care now. still ahead on "morning joe," a special master is now in place to handle the documents seized from mar-a-lago. we'll tell you more about him and the request from the doj that the judge rejected. meanwhile, the former president took an ominous tone when asked what would happen if he's indicted for mishandling classified documents. we'll play for you his comments. also ahead, new reporting on the friction between the white

house and homeland security on how to address the thousands of migrants crossing into the country every day. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. k. psst psst. [sfx: monster roaring and people screaming] allergies don't have to be scary. flonase sensimist stops your body from overreacting to allergens with a non-drowsy, ultra-lightweight mist. psst psst...flonase. all good! time. it's life's most precious commodity, especially when you have metastatic breast cancer. when your time is threatened, it's hard to invest in your future. until now. kisqali is helping women live longer than ever before when taken with an aromatase inhibitor or fulvestrant... in hr+, her2- metastatic breast cancer. kisqali is a pill that's proven to delay disease progression. kisqali can cause lung problems, or an abnormal heartbeat, which can lead to death. it can cause serious skin reactions, liver problems, and low white blood cell counts that may result in severe infections. tell your doctor right away

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the federal judge has appointed a third party to review the documents the fbi seized from former president trump's mar-a-lago home and club in florida. judge aileen cannon named raymond dearie as the special master. he's a senior u.s. district judge for the eastern district of new york. trump's attorneys had proposed dearie and justice department officials signaled their approval for him. among the responsibilities laid out by judge cannon will be to determine if any of the documents are protected by attorney-client or executive privilege. dearie has until november 30th

to review the materials. judge cannon also denied the justice department's request for continued access to the more than 100 classified documents seized from mar-a-lago to use in its ongoing criminal investigation. but the judge insisted her order does not restrict the government from continuing to review the seized materials for intelligence classification and national security assessments or from briefing members of congress about them. specifically, she said, the order blocks the doj from presenting materials to a grand jury and using them for witness interviews in the criminal investigation pending the special master's recommendation. the doj is expected to appeal the ruling to the 11th circuit court of appeals. let's bring in justice and intelligence correspondent, ken dilanian. there are two parts to what the judge handed down yesterday. let's start with the second one, and that is the blocking of the appeal for justice to look at these 100 documents, the

classified documents to continue the investigation. on what grounds did she make that ruling? >> willie, this judge really stuck it to the justice department on this one. the doj told her that the nation was suffering irreparable harm and that national security was at risk. she clearly didn't buy that argument. and she said the doj has not demonstrated. she said that they have made no allegation that any of these classified documents has fallen into the wrong hands and she jabbed them to say the only leaks have been about this investigation. of course, the justice department would say that's exactly what they're investigating. they don't know what happened to the documents. she has turned down the request to allow them to use around 100 classified documents in their criminal investigation, and they are going to appeal that, i have no doubt. but she did throw them a little bit of a bone, a small one. she said her order does not prohibit the intelligence community from continuing with

its damage assessment. remember that the doj had said that had been halted because of the order and she said the fbi can help with that, and they can do a lot of different things. they just can't use the content of the documents. the problem is the contents of the classified documents are crucial to trying to understand what the damage is to national security. if you're interviewing witnesses about what secrets might have gotten out at mar-a-lago, you need to know what the secrets are to be able to talk about them. >> you know, ken, if you could, give our viewers some context here about -- i hate to say it this way, because, as you know, as an attorney you don't want to cast aspersions on judges, maybe they know something you don't. i must say, though, reading the documents, looking at the pleadings, this ruling appears to be absolutely bizarre, and maybe i'm wrong, but i can tell you, every intel expert i talked to say this is really dangerous what she's done.

you look at legal experts on both sides of the aisle from donald trump's own attorney general to law professors, all across the political spectrum. people say she's clearly reading the law wrong, and she's doing it, intel experts say, in a way that can harm america's national security. >> yeah. you know, joe, it's one thing for a judge to be skeptical of the government's claims. we want that. we want the government to have to meet a high burden when they're investigating somebody for potential criminal violations. in this case, she's saying, we can't trust the justice department, including the national security division to go through a set of documents and tell us which ones are privileged and which ones they should be reviewing, even when they're classified. that's not the normal stance of the courts. normally judges defer to the executive branch when it comes to national security and classified information. because the judge doesn't have that expertise. the fbi counterintelligence

division, they do this for a living, right, and this judge is saying we can't trust you guys, we have to have this special master come in. judge raymond dearie is a respected, semi-retired senior judge here in new york. both sides agreed he was appropriate for the role, and she did instruct he review the classified documents first. it's possible that this really just amounts to a speed bump and not a roadblock in this investigation because he could easily speed through the documents, find none of them are privileged and hand them over and the doj goes on its merry way. as a matter of law and as a matter of precedent here, it seems as if the doj is going to appeal this because they think this is just a bad decision. >> right. at the worst, this potentially could drag things out more, which is definitely a possible tactic. but i'm curious, is it possible that the doj did not meet the high burden necessary for a decision that would go their way? >> i mean, we'll have to see what the 11th circuit says in atlanta which is full of a

majority of trump-appointed judges, but they are mystified. especially the idea that some of these classified documents could be subject to executive privilege through a former president. that's never been tested in the law. there's supreme court decisions that seem to argue against that. we'll have to wait and see. again, the consensus in the legal community is that this judge is on fairly thin ice here. >> on thin ice legally, and the 11th circuit is one of the most conservative in the country. people who have worked with the 11th circuit, who know the 11th circuit tell me they would not be surprised at all, even with them being as conservative as they are, if they didn't reverse this ruling because it is so out of balance. >> interesting. nbc news justice and intelligence correspondent ken dilanian, thank you very much. coming up, sending migrants to martha's vineyard was clearly

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former president trump is warning of "big problems in the united states" if he is indicted for his mishandling of classified documents. here's what he said on the hugh hewitt show yesterday. >> you know the old saying, a prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich if they want to. i'm just asking if there is such a prosecutor and they indict you, would that deter you from running for president again? >> i don't think the people of the united states would stand for it. and, as you know, if a thing like that happened, i would have no prohibition of running, you know that. >> i do, and that's what i wanted people to understand. that would not take you out of the arena. >> it would not, but i think if it happened, i think you would

have problems in this country the likes of which perhaps we've never seen before. i don't think the people of the united states would stand for it. >> what kind of problems, mr. president. >> i think you would have big problems. big problems. i just don't think they would stand for it. they will not sit still and stand for this ultimate of hoaxes. >> so, reverend al, donald -- poor donald thinks he's louis xvi. i am the state. if donald has problems, america does. i found it very interesting, bizarre, it struck me the first time i heard it. you notice he never said, hugh, if i'm indicted, we as a country would have big problems. he said you would have big problems.

>> the people of the u.s. >> he said they'd have the big problems, as if he's somehow separated from this country. any other normal human being would be saying, you know, if this happens, we have big problems as a country. he sees himself bigger than the presidency, bigger than the law. bigger than the united states of america, and thinks he can break the law and if americans tried to hold him accountable under the law, they would have big problems. your reaction. >> i think you're clearly right about his mindset. it's the same mindset that tells americans to storm the capitol and stop the certification of an election that was democratically held, and you had more people vote than at any point in the history of the country in a presidential election. it's protect me against them, them being the country that he

was the president of. and rather than identify with the country, as you rightfully pointed out, it's like they need to know who they're dealing with. like he's some omnipotent or other presence, and it's really very telling that the same mentality that would say they will have problems if they indict me. coming up, the president will meet with the families of brittney griner and paul whalen, who americans still being held in russia. the latest on bringing them home next on "morning joe." ning joe." it's the greatest sandwich

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there is growing friction between the white house and senior officials at the department of homeland security over how to handle the number of migrants crossing the u.s.-mexico border. that is according to internal documents and communications reviewed by nbc news. according to two u.s. officials, the white house recently has hosted a series of high-level meetings on immigration where dhs officials have presented options including flying migrants to the country's northern border with canada to alleviate overcrowding at the southern border. internal documents obtained by nbc news show some dhs officials have openly expressed frustration with the white house's reluctance to send migrants to cities within the united states just like some republicans governors have done. nbc news homeland security correspondent julia ainsley

broke the story. good morning. tell us more about these conversations inside the white house, because these proposals sound like what greg abbott, ron desantis, and others are doing right now. >> yeah, that's right, willie. it might sound like that, but in reality, what dhs officials are pushing is something that would be much more organized. we've known for a few months they've been pushing to alleviate overcrowding on the border by taking migrants on planes to interior cities where they can be processed, where there could be federal personnel meeting them, processing them, getting them to shelters, expect them to be coming to get the resources they need and to final destinations often times with family members where they can await their immigration court proceedings. it's not like the chaos we're seeing now in new york, chicago, d.c., and now martha's vineyard. they've been pushing this for a while, but the white house has been hesitant. they want to wait until there's a 9,000 number crossing the border each day. right now we understand some

days are approaching 8,000, even crossing over that, but dhs wants to start planning now and they think the time to start doing this interior processing is now. we're able to see through internal communications and documents that there's quite a bit of frustration where dhs feels like they continue to come up with solutions but that the white house is hesitant to take these options. >> so, can you give us a little bit of perspective about what's going on at the southern border? i thought, you know, for a while after biden got in that this was just the noise machine going on, you know, obviously republicans didn't talk about illegal immigration being terrible when barack obama was present because it was at a 50-year low in 2016. but then we started seeing the caravans every two years around election time. but talk about the numbers. i mean, the numbers really are bad. this isn't just a right-wing

talking point. there's been chaos at the border now for well over a year, and it's caused real concerns in agencies. can you explain why that's happening? >> that's right. i'd be happy to, joe. so, if you take one section of the border we can look at right now, peal sew. i was just down there at the beginning of the summer when they were at what has been record highs. they were seeing about 1,000 border crossings a day. they were having to release some migrants on the street. now they're at 1,300 migrants a day. they've done almost a thousand street releases over the past week. they have migrants amassing right in their urban center in downtown el paso where they release migrants and push them to bus station where is they can find their ways after they've gone through screening to make sure they're not a threat to national security. but becausally it's just sowing more chaos. if we look at numbers a cross the border of 8,000 a day, jeh

johnson has said on this show that his red line, the time where he called in all of his top people to come up with solutions, those where the numbers crossed 1,000 a day. just to put this in overall perspective from another angle, when we're talking about record highs, the highest month we've seen so far was may, 240,000 border crossings. an average year would probably be about 100,000 less than that. yes, that's a lot of people. but if you think about the overall landscape and demographics and population of the united states, that's not enough to overall change the country or to change the way we do business here. so i think that should also be taken into perspective that we see some of this chaos. sometimes it's just a matter of managing people and figuring out how the united states can work with partner countries to deal with some of the issues that are driving people here in the first place, the desperation, the political crises that they're escaping. we know in the case of venezuelans making up the majority of those going to martha's vineyard, crossing into

el paso, that's a country that is not taking people back so they can't be pushed back into mexico under the covid-19 restrictions known as title 42 because mexico won't take them back. >> right. >> there are dynamics at play. we need to figure out how to have what biden promised, a safe, orderly, and humane immigration system. >> julie, thank you so much for your great reporting. coming up, from beatles to the boss to barack obama, "rolling stone's" founder and publisher has a new memoir on the defining moments in music and politics. that conversation is straight ahead on "morning joe." joe.

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