spent a huge portion of the show talking about the legal peril donald trump is in, and yet his control over the republican party near complete. alayna treene thank you so much for being up with us this morning. and thank you that all of you. "morning joe" starts now. donald trump began his day by getting hit with the most massive lawsuit he has faced a lawsuit that could wipe him out and bankrupt his adult children. >> donald trump falsely inflated his net worth by billions of dollars to unjustly enrich himself and to cheat the system. >> and while it is not a criminal case, new york officials are turning some of their findings over to federal prosecutors regarding possible criminal acts they uncovered. >> in another blow, tonight there is breaking news on the investigation into the classified documents that trump

stashed at his retirement home in mar-a-lago. a federal appeals court, just before we went to air, just ruled in favor of the justice department. >> the justice department can have access to roughly 100 highly sensitive classified documents that were taken from mar-a-lago. immediately we saw the appeals court issue this ruling. i was stunned to see it come out so quickly. >> it's worth taking a step back and recognizing just how extraordinary this moment, this day is. it was almost easy to forget that trump had never actually been indicted. never been sued, you know, by the state entity or anything like that, but today, things look different. >> that is where we pick things up this morning, on top of the legal setbacks from donald trump comes news from the january 6th committee that the wife of supreme court justice, ginni thomas has agreed to meet with the committee about her efforts to overturn the 2020 election. good morning, welcome to "morning joe," it's thursday, joe and mika under the weather.

jonathan lemire, the host of "way too early." the state of the lawsuit against donald trump, his eldest three children and the trump organization alleging years of fraud. the state is seeking $250 million in damages and wants to bar the family from serving as officers of new york based companies. the lawsuit of more than 200 pages goes into details about how trump overvalued assets. he inflated the square footage of his apartment in trump tower claiming it was 30,000 square feet, when it was really less than 11,000. the triplex was valued at $327 million. the lawsuit called that absurd, the highest selling apartment in new york at the time was $100 million in a newly built tower. the highest selling apartment

was 16 1/2 million. trump overvalued mar-a-lago by millions of dollars basedfalse premise it could be developed and sold for residential use when he agreed not to do that. he claimed the beach club was worth $739 million but according to the lawsuit it should have been closer to $75 million. at his residential park avp building, the lawsuit claims trump valued units at $50 million when they should have been $750,000. you get the idea here. trump, his children and the organization are accused of using more than 200 false and misleading asset valuations over a ten-year period. new york state attorney general letitia james said she has referred the violations to the u.s. district court for the southern district of new york and to the irs. >> pattern of fraud and deception that was used by mr. trump and the trump organization for their own financial benefit is astounding. claiming you have money that you

do not have does not amount to the "art of the deal," it's the "art of the steal" and there can not be different rules for different people in the country and state and former presidents are no different. no one is above the law. every day people cannot lie to a bank about how much money they have in order to get a favorable loan to buy a home or send their kid to college. and if they they did, the government would throw the book at them. why should this be any different. it is a tale of two justice systems, one for every day working people, and one for the elite, the rich and the powerful. >> following that news conference, donald trump railed against attorney general james and released statements and on social media, once again calling her racist and claiming the case is a witch hunt. let's bring in "new york times"

investigative reporter, suzanne craig, she has reported extensively on the finances and taxes of donald trump, and won a pulitzer prize for that work, and msnbc legal analyst, danny cevallos, and andrew weissman, the former general counsel for the fbi. good morning to you all. just as a big picture look at what we're talking about here. there's so much going on around donald trump, around the elections, around his finances. it's hard to keep track. so what exactly are we talking about here in this lawsuit from the new york state attorney general? >> it's important to note that this is a civil lawsuit. it's not criminal. so if it ends up, you know in a court, he faces civil fines, and there are going to be other remedies, she wants to limit their ability to do business in new york. she wants to limit their lending, limit their, you know, ability to build in new york for a certain amount of period, so those are sort of the remedies.

it's not criminal. they have a criminal case, the trump organization, coming up in october, but this is civil. this isn't just donald trump, donald trump submitting documents so he could get more favorable terms with lenders. they also were looking at incidents where he over valued property in order to get favorable or large appraisals that would give him larger tax deductions, and we're looking agent that on land gifts he gave where he has basically land he feels he can no longer reduce, and so he donates it to a land conservancy, he can never use the land again, and as a result of that, you get a charitable donation. in this case, there was land that was worth whatever it was, 5 million, he would get an appraisal. and that sort of stuff has been referred to the irs for review.

but there's a lot going on. it's not just he submitted false documents to get favorable terms. >> there's a lot in there. >> there's more than 200 pages. >> i read it for five hours and still didn't hit the end. >> it's complicated. in terms of penalties, attorney general james is talking about a $250 million fine to bar donald trump permanently from sitting on the board of any new york based company and to prevent him from doing a real estate business in the state of new york for five years. you have gone through this document as well. how strong is the case against donald trump, his kids and the trump organization. >> they did something very smart here, which is they really tried to focus on things that are not subjective. you know, appraisals are notoriously loose. financial statements can have disclaimers, that they're not

audited. as you noted, the things that the new york attorney general focused on are things that are objectively false. so i think that was just very smart, and also the number of things that were repeatedly false makes it, i think, a very hard case, and also, remember because this is a civil case, the standard of proof is just a preponderance, slightly likelier than 50%, and the fact that a number of defendants, including donald trump asserted the fifth amendment may be used against them in the proceeding so that it can carry an adverse inference in a civil case. it couldn't in a criminal case. so it looks very strong. and it's also worth noting this is not the only trouble that the trump organization has because they are facing a criminal trial in the manhattan district attorney office starting in less than a month, so the trump

organization itself has really got a world of pain right now. >> so danny, those of us who have lived or worked in new york city will perhaps not be surprised that donald trump over inflated the value of properties. but the criminal referral, tell us about that. >> it's not historically significant that trump and his family are being sued. everybody knows that. it's not historically significant that they're being sued by the thy attorney general. what is significant is the potential referral to the irs and to the justice department. it is essentially phrased as a dare for them to look at this package that letitia james has created for them with all the receipts. as andrew pointed out, there are documents. valuation of property can be subjective, and by the way, that will be the trump defense. valuation is hazy at best.

consider, for example, putting the name trump, how is that an evaluation. you can't make 11,000 square feet into 30,000 square feet by saying that valuation is subject ive. the federal government is going to take a look at it, i'm almost certain. whether they bring criminal charges, the preponderance of the evidence is much lower than a beyond a reasonable doubt standard. federal prosecutors have an obligation, not just to get enough evidence to secure an indictment, probable cause, but they must believe they can prove beyond a reasonable doubt. it is cause for concern for everybody on the trump side. >> suzanne, you have studied donald trump's finances, the finances of the trump org for so

long. you understand there has been fraud over the years, we have all lived in new york for a long time, as john said, and watched this, but is this something different here? is this unique? how does this fit into the bigger picture of how donald trump always has done business? >> we looked in our reporting, especially in 2018 when we stumbled on this, and i mentioned the charitable donations where they can get a tax advantage, they go high, and then they had another example where they had property that was, you know, being valued for an estate and they would go low. we learned in that that, you know, there's a bit of a code , you don't need to say go high. the apray sor sort of knows. there's an allowable. let's bump it up a bit. it's not bump it up a thousand

person. it's 20 or 30%. from what letitia james, the attorney general has laid out, he's gone well beyond what would be considered, okay, here's, a little bit that you can have. and the other thing, i think his defense will be because it's common, you hear it a lot that they appraisals that people inflate them. just because everybody does it doesn't make it legal. that sounds like a confession to me. i think he's going to be in trouble if he says this is standard practice in new york and this happens. what he has done is so far beyond what we have seen and talked to experts about in terms of what's allowed and what the irs, you know, sort of let's go. >> and you've seen it all. if you're saying it goes far beyond, it really does. >> some of the numbers were a thousand plus percent where they were doing that, and they seem to be putting their thumb on the scale, you get into intent. there was one property i looked

at while i was reading through that it caught my eye, seven springs, the sprawling estate he owns in west chester on the opening of apprentice credits for anybody who's watched those, and they bought it in 1995, and then they tried, they tried and failed multiple times to put homes on it, and then they finally did an easement, charitable easement so they could get a tax deduction, and the attorney general's case shows that they didn't reveal a lot of details about how they tried and failed. they misled and got a better appraisal because of it. they have laid out documents in strong language that this is what happened between the trump organization and the appraiser. >> there's a long pattern of this, as you say, "new york times" investigative reporter who understands this better than anybody, suzanne craig. thank you so much, we appreciate you being here today. in a development in the mar-a-lago documents case, a

federal appeals court says the justice department can resume using the classified documents seized from former president donald trump's florida estate in its criminal investigation. the doj appealed a ruling from earlier this month by trump appointed u.s. district judge aileen cannon. the ruling late yesterday came from a three-judge panel of the u.s. court of appeals for the 11th circuit comprised of two trump appointees and one obama appointee. the panel rejected trump's position on the classified documents and part of cannon's reasoning for issuing the original order, specifically that her order would not get in the way in the office of the director of national intelligence risk assessment. the appeals court noted trump presented no evidence he had declassified the sensitive records and rejected the possibility that trump could have had an individual interest in or need for the roughly 100 documents with classification

markings seized by the fbi in their august 8th search of the palm beach property. the investigators continue scrutinizing the documents as they consider whether to bring criminal charges over the storage of top secret records at mar-a-lago after trump left the white house. andrew weissman, i think i've heard you say and most other legal analysts say this ended up probably in the right place with a slow down from judge cannon there. what do you make of the ruling yesterday? >> if you step back and think about what happened here, donald trump by bringing this lawsuit is worse off than he was before he brought this lawsuit. two things happened, when he brought this lawsuit, it allowed the department of justice to lay out with the specifics of why donald trump was -- had stolen documents, why he lied about them. why they engaged in a search

warrant because they weren't getting the documents through a voluntary process or a grand jury subpoena, which is not a request, it is a legal demand. that was misstep number one, and now in one day, you have the 11th circuit with the majority of the panel being appointed by donald trump ruling in every single way, as you said, a thorough opinion, and they go through chapter and verse against judge cannon in minding that donald trump, among other things, had no possessory interest this these documents. they are not his. so that is just another really bad development. it is a good development for the rule of law. the opinion is absolutely bullet proof in reversing judge cannon. >> now the intelligence community continues to look through the classified documents. wait until you hear president trump's former president trump's

explanation for how he declassified those documents. he appeared on sean hannity's fox news program from mar-a-lago. in the interview trump said presidents can declassify documents just by quote thinking about it. >> you had said on truth social a number of times, you did declassify. >> i did declassify, yes. >> was there a process? >> there doesn't have to be a process, as i understand it. different people say different things. if you're the president of the united states, you can declassify by saying it's declassified, even by thinking about it. because you're sending it to mar-a-lago or to wherever you're sending it, and there doesn't have to be a process. there can be a process but there doesn't have to be. you're the president, you make that decision. when you send, it's declassified. i declassified everything. >> then there's this line of reasoning from trump, which seemed to surprise even sean

hannity. >> there's also a lot of speculation because of what they did, the severity of the fbi coming and raiding mar-a-lago, were they looking for the hillary clinton e-mails that were deleted but they are around someplace, were they looking for the -- >> you're not saying you had it -- >> no, no they may be saying -- they may have thought it was in there. >> okay. >> and a lot of people said the only thing that would give the kind of severity that they showed by actually coming in and raiding with many many people is the hillary clinton deal, the russia, russia, russia stuff or there are a number of things, the spying on trump's campaign. so they spied on my campaign. >> john, help me out here. i have a little jet log from london. my processer isn't working as fast as it should. what's he talking about there? >> i have no idea. you'll recall, he even asked for

russia's help, so it is remarkable plot twist, danny cevallos, that apparently the fbi thinks they might have been at mar-a-lago. we know that's not true. is there anything he just said in terms of that nonsense or his claims he could declassify things by thinking about it. is any of this true? >> jonathan, give me a minute. i am currently declassifies documents by thinking about them. it's surprising that trump would say declassification powers extend this far. more significant, i can't help but go back to the point andrew weissman said, which is how has this declassification theory helped donald trump. his attorneys won't go so far as to say it in a court filing. by the way, i sympathize with those attorneys. they are in a position, many is the time i have been put in a position by a client where i have to use some word salad to get around what the client wants to say in court but that i would

never say in court. i sympathize with these lawyers. they have said, essentially, well, the president has the power to declassify documents, but they won't go so far, they would be putting their attorney's stamp on statements like trump just made with hannity, which is that he was sitting in the white house dethinking all of these documents. i don't know how you would do that. >> this is where you end up, isn't it, when there is no explanation for having classified documents removed from the white house and taken to your beach club, you effectively say i used the force to declassify them. >> yeah, you know, on a serious note, because, you know, this is just not a mature discussion of a defense. what he's really just saying is i'm above the law. this is just not serious. but the 11th circuit, the court of appeal's decision cuts this argument out from under donald trump because they first point out that this is something that

donald trump is unwilling to say in court in spite of repeated opportunities including just noting that the day before, before judge dearie" in brooklyn, the other thing that the court of appeals said and this is now a court of appeals decision with two trump judges, it's irrelevant. it has nothing to do with a legal defense here. so it is really a question of donald trump is just engaging in distractions. it is not a legally relevant thing, even if you could somehow declassify things by merely thinking about them. the court of appeals has a complete decision saying that this is just a bogus line of defense, and we shouldn't be distracted by it. >> and you're so right, andrew, it does remind you of the protests of the 2020 election where donald trump and others would go on tv and be at rallies and say wild things and when the

rubber met the road in the courtroom, they backed away from it, rudy giuliani being the clearest example of that. thank you for walking us through this. president biden rebukes russia during his speech at the u.n. general assembly. we'll talk through his warnings about moscow's efforts to erase ukraine from the map. >> and biden's comments come as hundreds of protesters have been arrested in russia after putin called for mobilizing more troops. we'll talk about the significance of the growing unrest there when richard haass and andrea mitchell join the table here in new york. officer eugene goodman offers new details about what he experienced on january 6th defending the united states capitol from the mob. and ginni thomas agreeing to meet with the house select committee investigating january 6th. we'll go over why her testimony may be important to that panel's

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weekend. he's gone after bonds. >> there was a part of me that wasn't so mad. now you do it against the sox at home. richard haass, and nbc chief foreign affairs correspondent the host of "andrea mitchell reports," andrea mitchell. this home run chase, you were talking about '61 and roger maris. >> i was a kid then, and i loved mickey mantle, i wanted him to do it and not maris. the yankees were king, and we hated the dodgers. the dodgers and giants had abandoned us for the west coast. >> you weren't alone. >> mickey mantle, whitey ford. those were the classic years, and the yankees represented all that was right about the country. >> you hear that, jonathan. >> i'm going to rebut pretty

strongly here. >> america's team. >> 2004, richard. >> 2004. >> i don't have much. but it is, we'll say this about aaron judge, what a spectacular season. he's the american league triple crown. it's remarkable to watch. >> two for four is a bad night. >> i know. left disappointed because he didn't get a home run. we'll keep that watch on. yankees, sox, four games, he has a chance to tie and break the record. >> he did do it emphatically. >> he has to narrate it on the show. >> i'm taking tomorrow off. >> smart man. president biden condemned russia during his speech at the united nations general assembly. speaking to nearly 200 world leaders, biden framed europe's war as part of what he says is a

larger fight to protect democracy across the world. >> russia has shamelessly violated the core tenants of the united nations charter. no more important than the clear prohibition against countries taking territory of their neighbor by force. the united states is determined to defend democracy at home and around the world. democracy remains humanity's greatest instrument to address the challenges of our time. if nations can pursue their imperial ambitions without consequences, we put at risk everything this institution stands for, everything. let me also urge every nation to recommit to strengthening the nuclear nonproliferation regime through diplomacy. no matter what else is happening in the world, the united states is ready to pursue critical arms

controls measures. a nuclear war cannot be won. and must never be fought. >> andrea, that speech comes at such a fascinating time in this war when you have cracks even among allies of vladimir putin, president xi not offering his support. president modi being openly critical of vladimir putin. how was that received in the room yesterday. >> it was received well in the room. i thought it was one of joe biden's better speeches, in fact, and he worked really hard on it. the flight over to london, back from london, going to the funeral in between and cared a great deal about this. they added a couple of lines because of putin's speech. they believe that putin is bluffing on the nuclear weapons, but our concern about what he will do if he's cornered, backed into a corner, and that's why trying to keep that balance with zelenskyy, the recent advances by ukraine in the northeast have given them a lot of momentum and

a lot of hope, and the extraordinary achievements of the ukrainians, the heart and soul of the ukrainians against these, you know, hideous war crimes, unspeakable war crimes, so they're working really hard to make sure that he does not cross a red line which would be to go with these long range artillery, which he's now gotten, which have helped him succeed in this counter offensive that he doesn't go across that red line into mother russia and the concern is that russia, by going ahead with these fake, you know, annexations and fake ref ref , to redefine, and that would be, you know, bringing nato. that's what joe biden has been so determined to do. don't make this the u.s. and nato versus russia because that

is something, as he said, a nuclear war cannot be fought and can never be won. >> that speech a couple of days ago from putin did have the air of desperation going all the way to threatening nuclear war. how is the international community receiving that threat, how seriously they're taking it? >> people are disconcerted by it. the person who possesses the world's largest nuclear arsenal would be making these kinds of et there is is unnerving. i think the president got it about right yesterday. this is about world order. it's about imperial ambitions cannot be allowed to be met. there's not a lot of rules in this world, the only basic rule is you can't acquire territory by force. the corollary is we can't award anybody for threatening, much less using nuclear weapons. if putin is able to succeed, think of what that teaches north korea, iran, anybody else that says nuclear weapons are a valuable strategy. for 75 years they haven't been

used. we cannot allow that to happen. so we basically have to take it as a bluff, and we've got to think really hard what will it take to make sure that vladimir putin is deterred from going down that path. i think essentially the united states and nato have to be resolved and ignore the fact of putin's bluster. don't accept the sham annexations. ukraine is going to go on militarily, take back these places. putin, to me, is acting out of desperation, out of weakness. he basically took the step of the mobilization. you saw the protests in moscow. he has protests from the right that he's not doing enough. from the left that he's doing too much. vladimir putin is a cornered guy that's dangerous. this is not a time to give into nuclear blackmail. >> you're going to see the show down at the united nations security council. lavrov is going to show up after some conversations that maybe he wouldn't show up. he's got to show up.

they have to have someone in the chair, or they have a resolution that isn't vetoed. they have to worry about modi of india and xi. the signals that were sent is unusual. china will bluster against the u.s. as having started all of this at the security council. that said, this was a brush back against vladimir putin that his two remaining super allies around the world, india and china are not comfortable with this ukrainian invasion. it's a terrible policy. it was a mistake. they know it. the world knows it, and putin is on his back heel. the problem is that he will not give up. there's no way this guy is ever going to give up. to give up, to concede, to be defeated is regime change. what will he do if he's backed into a corner. that's the scary thing. >> that's the big black box of

this, and that's what everyone is worried about, he's deinstitutionalized the country. we're not quite sure what he can do and who can stop him from doing it. that's the only part that leaves analysts uneasy. we're not quite sure what's going on. >> whether he cares or not, he is feeling pressure. protesters taking to the streets across russia showing their disapproval of vladimir putin's partial mobilization policy that would draft around 300,000 more russians into military service. according to a human rights group, 1,300 protesters in at least 38 cities have been detained. in addition, one-way flights out of russia to neighboring countries have completely sold out since putin's announcement. it marks the largest wave of demonstrations in russia since the start of the invasion of ukraine. volodymyr zelenskyy is proposing a five-point plan to end the war and achieve peace. in his address to the u.n. general assembly yesterday, zelenskyy called for world powers to punish moscow, and to protect life in ukraine.

the plan asks for increasing military aid to kyiv and stripping the kremlin of its veto power in the u.n. security council. zelenskyy called for the formation of a special tribunal to oversee the peace process and say everyone except russia wants peace. >> ukraine wants peace. europe wants peace. the world wants peace. and we have seen who is the only one who wants war. >> so andrea, it certainly seems unlikely that russia will lose its position and the security council, but let's have an assessment as the prospects for peace. both sides seem dug in. zelenskyy has indicated he will fight for every inch of ukraine territory. he can't accept a deal. his ukrainian counter offensive showing success but they are also taking heavy losses that stalled in some parts of the country. where do we go from here?

>> a frozen conflict, a long war, an energy crisis in europe, germans very nervous about the nuclear issue, about zaporizhzhia and other nuclear plants and about, you know, the possibilities of an intentional or an accidental nuclear crisis there. the german population. but chancellor schultz has shown surprising solidarity. i think western alliance is holding, and you've got to give the u.s. a lot of credit for the ground work here in nato and other institutions coming out of just a complete melt down under donald trump frankly of any institutional presence, multilateral presence by the united states, think of past nato meetings as richard and i both know and u.n. meetings where, you know, the trump presence was just an embarrassment and irritant, you

know, crossing in front of other leaders and being -- >> the leader of montenegro, brushed aside, pushed aside. >> it is a restoration, you know, with the exception, of course, of the way the afghanistan withdrawal was managed against what they inherited. >> i want to come back to andrea's point, i think the most likely scenario people have to get used to is talk about negotiation is unlike to go anywhere. this is going to be a long war, and it's easier in a funny sort of way with putin and zelenskyy to live in a low level war than to sign on to a peace deal where they're compromising. putin would look weak. it's easier for both of them to hold on to their long-term goals and just live with a war that's being fought at a less intense level, less loss of life. less loss of equipment. i think that's that we ought to get ready for.

the europeans will get through the winter. we have better fasten our seat belts, and we're not talking months. this war has been going on for eight years. for all we know, it could go on for many more. >> the other thing to also point out. i have been told that the russian casualties are far greater. the numbers are astounding already, far greater than what we have acknowledged. >> without question. yeah. you don't call up 300,000 more troops unless you need more. i know you've got to run over to the u.n. i want to ask you about iran. extraordinary pictures of women removing their head scarves, cutting their hair, going back to the death of a young woman in the custody of the morality chief. how significant are these pictures. we don't see these often. >> they're significant but in 2009, we saw an uprising and the u.s. did not stand up and do something about it. obviously it's terribly

complicated but they can be crushed very easily, especially because we understand that the supreme leader, the ayatollah is frail and may be sicker than acknowledged. that could lead to, of course the irgc, the revolutionary guard, the military unit which controls the economy and everything else there. and is still demanding revenge for the soleimani, you know, assassination, and that could lead to a further hardening of policy, and the fact that we are weeks away from them having enough nuclear fuel for these one weapon, when we had at least eyes on, it was an imperfect deal but at least we had the u.n. inspectors and video and we understood more of what they had, and the build up since we got out of the deal unilaterally

has just been an incredible policy failure, so we've got real problems there. >> two things, one is there will be a rough crack down and 40% of iran supports the crackdown. it's almost two irans. we're seeing the more westernized society. most of the power is on the other side. alas we've got to expect that. i don't know if there's going to be a nuclear deal. i think the odds are low right now. we have to assume there's a potential crisis there. israel, united states, saudi arabia, the question is can we have an informal set of arrangements with iran that they don't go beyond certain points. if they do, quite honestly, there will be elements of attack against them, israel or someone else. the president in his speech was clear that iran will not be allowed to have a nuclear weapon. that's about as black and white as you -- again, if we would have had the deal, it would have parked the problem for nine years. if we don't have it, what

happened in nine years is going to happen now and we're going to have a show down with iran, and other countries in the region. to make it more complicated, saudis and others will watch it closely. they are going to be tempted to get nuclear weapons of their own. just when you think the middle east can't get worse. fasten your seat belts. >> there's a lot on the table over at the u.n. and the general assembly for the first time in a couple of years. great to see you. richard haass, you as well. another big interest rate hike from the fed, and it's unlikely to be the last. we'll explain the latest effort to tame inflation. plus, ohio republicans back out of a pair of debates ahead of the midterm elections. we'll explain why next on "morning joe." elections we'll explain why next on "morning joe."

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we prefer day-adjacent. i'll go man-pire. a live picture of the united states capitol at 6:47 in the morning. the federal reserve announced another interest rate hike yesterday in the latest effort to tame soaring inflation. nbc news correspondent emilie ikeda has details. >> reporter: in the fed's fight to bring down inflation, chairman jerome powell acknowledged there will be pain. >> higher interest rates, slower growth and a softening labor market are all painful for the public that we serve. >> reporter: small business owner inika hobs is feeling it. >> where will you have to make cutbacks? >> some of the cutbacks i have been thinking about is staff hours, payroll is always one of those things that you can manage but then that also is a huge

pinch on me. >> reporter: with the central bank raising interest rates for the fifth time in a row. >> when you ring these in and type in that final -- >> the owner has to press pause on her expansion plans. >> we're paying more into debt rather than being able to take that money and put it into hiring more people or expanding into a new store. >> reporter: the fed's move is an effort to cool consumer demand and inflation. with prices 8.3% higher in august than they were a year ago. powell's challenge is the balancing act of bringing prices down without triggering a recession. the fed anticipating that unemployment will rise from current levels of 3.7% to 4.4% at the end of next year. >> we have to get supply and demand back into alignment, and the way we do that is by slowing the economy. >> something that will be felt by everyone. when the fed raises interest rates, borrowing money becomes more expensive. impacting car payments, business loans, credit card debt and

mortgage rates, which have now reached their highest level from 2008. >> emilie ikeda reporting there. let's bring in former treasury official and "morning joe" economic analyst, steve rattner. good morning, you've called this one, 3/4 of a basis point, and more to come. how long will this go on for the fed? how long will they have to continue to raise rates? >> that's a matter that has to evolve over time. the fed's favorite phrase is to say they're data dependent, meaning they look at each piece of data and evaluate it from there. if you look at where the fed's so called dot plot with their projecting rates are going to be, and you look at where the market is projecting rates to be, we're talking about a fed rate that is well over 4% in all likelihood and i think that is pretty much of a minimum, and that implies several more rate hikes from here to get there, and obviously we'll have commensurate effects in mortgage markets and consumer loan markets and all the places that

interest rates very directly affect consumers. >> let's look at why you're here with the charts. in the first one, you look at the economic outlook by the fed, where we are now, and where it looks like we're going. >> yeah, four times a year the fed tells us where we think we're going, and what's interesting here is if you take the september and june projections and line them up, you can see that where the fed thinks we're going is more worrisome over time. as we talked about, the fed has been behind the curve on the economy and inflation. they have been far more optimistic than prior forecasters and now you can see them trying to come back to where the world actually is, and so you can see they have taken their inflation up very substantially. i should note they use a somewhat different measure of inflation, it's consistent with what the cpi, which is the other measure shows. you can see the gdp has come down dramatically at the beginning of the year, the fed thought we could have a 4% growth rate this year. we will be lucky if we have a

positive growth rate this year. it's possible the growth rate could end up negative. you see the unemployment modestly having to rise. the words that sometimes aren't spoken about the fed is that the only way to get inflation down is to reduce demand, reduce the economic activity. it means fewer jobs, and people spending less money out there, and that's the job of the fed and the job of the higher interest rates. >> you started at the top of the segment, steve, to speak to the second chart about exactly how high the rates must go. let's take a look at the chart and walk us through it. >> sure. well, the first thing you can see on the two set of straight dash lines, those are the fed projections issued at different times. the one they issued in june three months ago, and the one they issued yesterday, and you can see that, the fed's own expectations for interest rates have jumped up dramatically in that short period of time, and it sees inflation peaking at over 4% in 2023, sorry, interest

rates at, that curvy line, that's what the market thinks is going to happen. and the market has been consistently more optimistic than the fed about what it thought was likely to happen. at the moment, it thinks rates will be a bit higher for a short period of time, and the market is turning down. you have a bit of a disconnect. the market for a long time was more hawkish or negative than the fed and now somewhat more positive. whichever whey you choose tlook -- to look at the mortgage rates at 6% is likely to go up. >> let's turn to chart number three. anyone who has any money in the market or has a 401(k) can identify with this. rising rates stinging stocks, how bad is it and is it going to get worse?

>> yeah, to make this little segment on news you can use in a sense. there are many things that drive the markets, obviously economic fundamentals, company earnings, things like that, but one of the things that is, in my opinion, a heavy driver of the market are interest rates because when interest rates go up, people have other places to put a high rate of return. when they go down to zero as they were earlier this year, they tend to put their money in stocks, that's part of why we have the enormous bull run in stocks. what i did here is comparing the timing of the various fed interest rates with what happened in the stock market. while it's obviously not a perfect correlation, you can see that, in fact, higher interest rates are the enemy of the stock market. that little improvement in the stock market last summer reflects a moment when powell was perceived to be saying things hawkish about how much interest rates had to go up so the stock market had recovery. now a dose of reality has been

put in front of the stock market. the big question around all of this, of course is are we going to have a recession. how bad is it going to be. we know no way of economic science, slowing an economy, other than having people buy less, which means people having less income, this means fewer jobs, and all that can translate into a negative gdp or a recession as we call it. i think the majority of economists would say that it is highly likely that sometime in the next 12 to 24 months, we will have some kind of recession if and when the fed remains committed to bringing inflation down to 2% which jay powell said was commitment. the timing of the economic cycle here and the timing of the election cycle here may not be ideal for the party, the incumbents of the party in power. >> "morning joe" economic

analyst steve rattner with his world famous charts. good to see you, thank you so much. why the new york attorney general's lawsuit against donald trump and his children could lead to a more significant case against the family. plus an nbc news exclusive on china's efforts to recruit scientists working on top nuclear projects in the united states. "morning joe" is coming right back. states "morning joe" is coming right back it's the all-new subway series menu. twelve irresistible new subs. the most epic sandwich roster ever created. ♪♪ it's subway's biggest refresh yet! time. it's life's most precious commodity, especially when you have metastatic breast cancer. when your time is threatened, it's hard to invest in your future. until now. kisqali is helping women live longer than ever before when taken with an aromatase inhibitor or fulvestrant... in hr+, her2- metastatic breast cancer. kisqali is a pill that's proven to delay disease progression. kisqali can cause lung problems, or an abnormal heartbeat, which can lead to death.

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donald trump falsely inflated his net worth by billions of dollars to unjustly enrich himself and to cheat the system thereby cheating all of us. >> the attorney general of the state of new york. it is 7:00 on the button here on the east coast, as you look at a live picture of the white house. a busy day in washington and new york. first, we learned that new york attorney general letitia james filed a sweeping new lawsuit against former president trump, the trump organization, and three of trump's adult children

accusing them of fraudulent financial practices, then came a new development from the house select committee investigating january 6th. ginni thomas, the wife of supreme court justice clarence thomas has agreed to speak to the panel in the coming weeks. and a win for the justice department and federal investigators as an appeals court allows the doj to resume its criminal probe of classified documents seized from former president trump's mar-a-lago estate. welcome back to "morning joe," it is thursday, september 22nd, jonathan lemire is still with us, and msnbc contributor our good friend mike barnicle joins us table as well. let's get to the brewing legal battle in new york. letitia james filed a lawsuit against donald trump and his children for widespread fraud involving false financial statements related to the company. nbc news correspondent peter

alexander has details. >> reporter: a legal move that could shut down the empire that bears the former president's name, the trump organization. >> claiming you have money you do not have does not amount to the art of the deal. it's the art of the steal. >> reporter: new york attorney general letitia james announcing the civil lawsuit after a three-year investigation, alleging the company and its leadership, including trump, three of his children falsely valued assets for their own financial gain. >> the pattern of fraud and deception that was used by mr. trump is astounding. >> reporter: the alleged scheme fought to inflate mr. trump's own net worth by billions of dollars. by helping the company secure more favorable terms for loans and insurance. among the examples she cites mr. trump's property at 40 wall street that james said in 2011 he declared was worth $524 million even though an appraiser valued it at just 200

million. his mar-a-lago estate, she says, was valued as high as $730 million on the false premise that it could be developed and sold for residential use, and about his own penthouse apartment inside trump tower, james says mr. trump misrepresented it as being more than 30,000 square feet when she says it's actually a third of that size, which she valued at $327 million. >> to this date, no apartment in new york city has ever sold to close to that amount. >> reporter: the extraordinary lawsuit seeks $250 million in penalties, a ban permanently blocking the trumps from running businesses in new york, and from buying commercial real estate in new york for five years. the former president slamming the suit by james who's a democrat, as politically motivated, attacking the new york ag as quote a fraud who campaigned on a get drunk

platform. donald trump jr. writing, dem witch hunt continues. and james vowing to sue mr. trump even before she was elected. >> will you sue him for us. >> we're going to definitely sue him. we're going to be a pain in the ass. >> not only was no banked harmed, actually they profited handsomely. >> chief white house correspondent peter alexander reporting there. joining us state attorney general for palm beach county, florida, dave aaronberg and david enrich, his new book "servants of the dammed," that is out now, and 2020 best seller "dark towers" focused on trump's finances and ties to deutsche bank. david enrich here at the table, you have seen a lot, studied a lot, written a lot about trump's finances. what do you make of the lawsuit yesterday, how big of a deal is

it? >> it's a big deal. the former president systematically overstated the value of those assets, and it's a damaging allegation. >> is there anything in here that surprises you, having studied his book so closely. >> it surprises me a little bit just how directly involved he allegedly was. one of trump's master strokes over the decades is that he has maintained plausible deniability. not using e-mail or having layers of intermediaries between him and whoever he's operating with. if you look at the lawsuit, the alleges are clear that trump not only had knowledge of what was happening but was personally involved with or directing activities. >> a lot of this isn't recent developments. why has it come to the surface now? >> there's critical mass behind the investigations. from trump's standpoint, that is what is so concerned. it's not just the letitia james

lawsuit. there are criminal investigations on the federal and state level elsewhere and a whole swirl right now. it's probably the greatest legal peril that trump has found himself in. >> dave aaronberg, certainly a big deal. we have been cautioned this could take time. there's a backlog in u.s. courts. it could be years before this comes to fruition, but also in what the attorney general, letitia james, a criminal referral. talk about how potent that is. >> it is serious because the criminal referral could lead to charges by the feds and don't sleep on the manhattan district attorney, albert brag, he has said in a press release the investigation of the same matters continues. tish james, the attorney general investigated on a civil base. she's limited on what she could do on a criminal base, and alvin brag, the manhattan d.a. was investigating on a criminal

basis. allen weisselberg is going to be sentenced for five months to prison for his role in a similar financial scheme. that could be the future for others involved with the trump organization. you know, what's important to know here is that even though this is a civil matter, it is still, as david said, a big deal. letitia james, attorney general of new york is the one who successfully went after the trump foundation, the charitable arm of the trump organization and led to its dissolution, and so, yeah, there are a lot of bad things that can happen here short of putting the trump family in handcuffs. >> david enrich, greatest legal peril that he's ever faced, that's what you just said, my question to you is a basic one, where is he going to get the lawyers now? >> that is a good question. and this is a topic i explore in my book. lawyers had been tiptoeing for him, and now they are running away from him as fast as they can. so he has had a lot of trouble

finding lawyers that are not only willing to deal with the reputational taint that comes with dealing with trump, but also the fact that his lawyers over and over again over the years, and including right now have themselves found themselves in legal peril because of what trump requests of them and asks them to do, and you know, as any lawyer will tell you, the last thing in the world you ever want to do is find yourself in the cross hairs of prosecutors, and i think that is a really good open question, whether he is going to be able to find the legal resources to deal with this because there's d jones day is his campaign's long-term law firm. i think it's unlikely they are going to jump back on this band wagon right now, and i'm not sure who else might. >> dave, we have covered enough legal peril for one show. that's not enough for donald trump. the court of appeals ruled against him last night to trump appointees, part of that

decision, and now allowing the doj can start looking at classified documents getting rid of the delay. doj registered a complaint about that. give us your assessment. was this the right decision and what does it mean going forward for the case? >> it was the right decision, a smack down, a technical legal term in the world of pro wrestling this would be a one sided squash match. let us review the documents and we won't appeal. the doj agreed to the special master. judge cannon was locked in with trump's argument that, no, none of the stuff should be reviewed and she was rebuke bid the conservative 11th circuit. and you're right, two of the three members of the panel were appointed by donald trump. the 11th circuit said that contrary to judge cannon's ruling, the documents were indeed classified and that trump's lawyers provided zero

evidence to the contrary, and it wouldn't matter anyway because a former president has no possessory interest in such government documents whether they're classified or not. it was an easy call as a matter of law, and this reversal will be a permanent part of judge cannon's legacy, and unfortunately it had to come to this. >> we're talking about mar-a-lago, new york state, the trump organization, we're talking about georgia investigations, there is a lot coming up. this former president, his moment of greatest legal peril, but i think a lot of people watching have become cynical about this because he somehow seems to over his life dodge legal bullets again and again. why do you think this is a moment it could catch up to him. >> i'm not certain it could catch up to him. i think there are these huge storm clouds gathering on the horizon or right above him, and starting to gush rain, but look, all of my predictions over the year, what will get trump and

not get trump, they almost always are wrong. i have learned to be a little more circumspect in that. there's a lot, and it's criminal and civil. many places all over the country, and trump appointees on courts are not just allowing themselves to be walked all over, and we'll see. i have been wrong about this all the time in the past. i'm definitely not going to make a prediction. >> there's a lot going on. we'll see how it plays out. david's few book titled "servants of the damned, giant law firms, trump and the department of justice is out next," dave aaronberg, thank you as well. ginni thomas will meet with the january 6th committee sometime in the coming weeks. she's the wife of course of supreme court justice clarence thomas. the committee has evidence she exchanged e-mails with john eastman about his strategies to overturn the election, and texts

she sent to mark meadows, encouraging him not to concede the election to joe biden. you may remember these. in one message two days after the election, thomas sent meadows a conspiracy theory that was spreading on far right web sites, saying biden, his family, and coconspirators would be arrested and held on barges off gitmo to face military tribunals for sedition. thomas wrote, quote, i hope this is true. earlier in month, "the washington post" obtained e-mails thomas sent to lawmakers in wisconsin calling on them to choose new electors. her lawyer has said thomas was concerned about the future of the country under president biden's leadership but nothing she did was illegal, and she did not have a role or information about the january 6th attack on the capitol. it is important to point out clarence thomas was the only justice to dissent when the

supreme court ruled former president trump could not withhold presidential records from the january 6th committee. jonathan lemire, those texts with mark meadows, people might remember, they were reported out, expressing concern they weren't doing enough at the white house to flip the election and the wife of a sitting supreme court justice who was the only one to dissent on the decision may be a conflict of interest at the very least. >> they claim they don't discuss their work lives at home, but what we know is significant, if she was in constant contact with the chief of staff who was part of the scheme to overturn the elections, petitioned two battleground states to get them to go along with seating alternate electorates. and of course her husband's role there at the supreme court. this is a significant coup for the january 6th committee. they have wanted this for a while. they wanted to get they are

testimony. her lawyers were in negotiations. as the committee returns, there's a hearing scheduled for next week. >> why has mark meadows not been forced to appear before the january 6th committee. >> they have asked him. they have not compelled him. he has his own legal issues. the criminal referral has occurred. someone close to the process in recent days, before the ginni thomas revelation. they feel he's the key to a lot of this. they have hopes. they have also said the hearing next week won't be the last. they anticipate a couple more between now and the election. >> we should remind people, the committee has his text messages and documents from him. now they want to talk to him about that. the u.s. capitol police officer eugene goodman is giving new details about what we went

through during the attack on the capitol. doug jenson, one of the rioters who pursued goodman up two flights of stories. he found himself holding pepper spray in one hand and his baton in the other as police faced off with the people attacking the capitol. he was hit in the face by bear spray. as more officers arrived, goodman says he was able to go inside a triage area where he described throwing up in a bucket before returning outside to resume the defense of the capitol. he said a crowd of what looked like thousands was overwhelming police and climbing all over the scaffolding. he described being jabbed at by a man with a confederate flag. officer goodman was dubbed a hero and he was a hero after the january 6th insurrection for protecting members of congress

by leading rioters away from the senate floor. we're reminded in this video and the testimony of the heroic actions that day that likely saved lives, many lives of members of congress by the way, and what the other officers did that day, and what they endured from the people who attacked the capitol. >> ask mitt romney about that. mitt romney was prevented from being attacked by the crowd because of people like officer goodman, and still all of these months after the january 6th riot at the capitol, it's staggering to look at the crowds and what happened that day, and to consider the fact that so many people in public life, members of the house of representatives, largely belonging to one party, the republican party deny the violence that occurred in one span of time. >> they won't acknowledge that testimony. thank god for people like

officer goodman. senate majority whip dick durbin will be here with his reaction to the lawsuit filed by the new york attorney general against donald trump. also ahead an nbc exclusive investigation reveals scientists working at the foremost national security lab were paid as much as a million dollars to help china develop cutting edge weapons. >> and u.s. ambassador to the u.n., linda thomas-greenfield joins the table following president biden's address to the united nations. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. g "morning " we'll be right back.

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democracy at home and around the world because i believe democracy remains humanity's greatest instrument to address the challenges of our time. if nations can pursue their imperial ambitions without consequences then we put at risk everything this very institution stands for, everything. >> part of president biden's address to the u.n. general assembly yesterday, and joining us now is the u.s. ambassador to the united nations, linda thomas-greenfield. glad to have you here. >> thank you, i'm glad to be here. >> drawing president from president xi, and modi of india, what was it like in the room yesterday, and what is the feeling as it does seem the world, the west, obviously, but really the world is gathering behind ukraine. >> over 190 countries sitting in the room listening attentively to the president of the united states condemning russia.

the outlined a positive agenda for the u.s., an agenda that will focus on the crises around the globe. we're going to be focusing on food insecurity. we're focusing on climate change. we're focusing on global health, but we're also focusing the world on what russia is doing in ukraine. their unprovoked war on the people in ukraine. as the president described it, they want to erase ukraine from the map. they want to disappear ukrainess from the world. >> one of the things president zelenskyy has tried to do is to keep the world engaged, keep his story in front of the world so the support continues. is it your sense sitting at the u.n. that the world is still on this, that they're willing to go the distance for however long this war takes. >> that's my sense. we have isolated russia in the

united nations, in the security council. we've got 141 countries to vote to condemn russia. we suspended them from the human rights council. they hear every single time we're sitting in the council condemnation of what they are doing. so they are feeling the isolation. they're not behaving like a country that's confident about their place in the world. and we will keep the pressure on. >> obviously another focus for the president was beijing, their attempts to have a nuclear program, the economics and of course their efforts to soft support some of what russia is doing. how important, and the president often speaks about how this generation is going to be defined by the battle between democracies and autocracies. >> the chinese have found

themselves in an extraordinarily uncomfortable position, and that is trying to defend the actions of russia. and not clearly condemning those actions in the security council, and we've called them out for that as well. but we also have to continue to engage with the chinese in the council as well as dealing with them on issues of climate change. so we will continue to consult and work with them in areas where we can. we're going to compete with them where we need to, and we will condemn their actions when necessary. >> ambassador, yesterday president biden brought a topic that is a constant in the world unfortunately. finally brought it into the headlines, food insecurity. we had chef jose andres on with us yesterday, and he was talking about what happens, the ripple effect of when people are

hungry, not just in war zones but in the middle east, in africa. could you speak to what happens among your colleagues, about what they talk about about food insecurity in the poorest nations of the world, what can we do for people. >> that's one of the highest priorities of this administration. we started talking about food insecurity when i arrived last year in february, in our first presidency, food insecurity was one of the events we focused on. in may, secretary blinken came to new york. we hosted a ministerial, we brought 103 countries to sign on to a road map of how we will address food insecurity around the world. i have traveled to africa and talked about food insecurity. some of the potential we see on the african continent for

addressing food insecurity. the united states has given billions of dollars in humanitarian assistance, the president announced 2.9 billion just yesterday that will address some of the development issues, capacity issues, and humanitarian issues. we have given close to $7 billion. we're working with countries to address food insecurity needs, to feed their people. i heard senator pelosi say that food is medicine, and food is medicine. food provides nourishment to people around the world. if they don't have enough to eat, they're not going to think about the politics. they're not going to think about other issues. this is an issue that is global and one we have to work with the world to address. the president was clear on that. we hosted during this week, food insecurity summit, cohosted with the eu, with the african union, with spain, and we had dozens of

nations participate in the meeting because they all know that is something we have to work together to address. >> as we say, president biden pledging 3 billion more dollars on top of 7 billion that had already been put out earlier this week. i wanted to ask you, ambassador, about the inspiring scenes in the streets of iran over the last couple of days. largely young people going to the streets, protesting the morality police. there's something called the morality police in iran, a young woman died in the custody of that group. really, it's a taste and a thirst for freedom. will the united states support these people in their efforts for freedom because they have been in the past disappointed by the united states and had their movements squashed by the power of iran. >> the death of this young woman is extraordinarily sad. squashing the expression of

frustration that the young a iranians. they know they can depend on our voice in condemning the iranian government, condemning their actions against these young people, and they should expect that if they don't listen to their youth, they're going to see these demonstrations continue to happen over and over again. >> extraordinary pictures, you have seen a lot over the years in iran. >> can you think of any other member nations in the united nations as component parts of law enforcement involve morality police? >> of course in afghanistan, they have morality police or religious police that enforce

their edicts on people, in particular women of aversion, and -- afghanistan, this is something we do condemn. women make up 50% of the population. women's rights are human rights, and we have to support them wherever their rights are being stamped on. >> ambassador linda thomas-greenfield, thank you so much for spending time with us this morning. it's good to see you. >> great to be here. just how much money china is throwing around in an effort to bolster and modernize its own cache of weapons. ken dilanian joins us with that exclusive new report next on "morning joe." t exclusive new report next on "morning joe." [ marcia ] my dental health was not good. i had periodontal disease,

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back at 7:34 on the east coast, president biden has approved a major disaster declaration for puerto rico. the declaration will grant access to emergency assistance for residents as the island attempts to begin to recover from hurricane fiona. the first category 4 hurricane of the season fiona has left more than 500,000 people without access to water in puerto rico. around 30% of presidents have had their power restored as of yesterday afternoon. the amount of damage to the island in terms of cost has not been calculated. they are still looking through it. as many as eight deaths have been reported so far. fiona is on track to brush the territory of bermuda before continuing north to canada. time for a look at the morning papers. in florida, the tallahassee democrat leads with new polling that raises questions about former president trump's grip on the republican party. according to a new usa today suffolk university poll, ron

desantis leads by 8 points in a hypothetical 2024 primary match up. that's a reversal from january when the same poll had trump leading desantis by 7 points. john lemire, we know this will get under the skin of the former president in his home state. >> now also a florida man. this is a reversal, certainly is noted. we should tap the brakes. we have seen the former president trump's approval rating has declined over the summer, in the wake of mar-a-lago search. had he is down in florida. republicans in desantis's home state like the job he's doing. yesterday there was a "politico" national poll which had trump over desantis, 52-19. most polls are more in that line with the conclusion that his popularity has slipped some, he is by far the dominant force and would be the favorite in 2024. >> without question. home state of florida. >> he'll be truth socialing about it.

to ohio where the springfield news sun leads with a story about the state's republican candidates for governor and united states senate refusing to debate their respective opponents ahead of the midterms. ohio's republican party blamed the state's debate commission for failing to agree to terms acceptable to all candidate. the state's democratic candidates for governor and senate have agreed to debates scheduled for next month. the detroit free press reports on the future of abortion rights. in michigan, a poll by the paper found 64% of michigan voters support adding an amendment to the state's constitution that would protect abortion rights. that amendment is on the ballot in november. and the idaho statesman is looking at a surge in young voter registration. new figures show at least nine states including idaho, there's a higher number of 18 to 24-year-olds on voter rolls compared to the last midterm elections in 2018. in addition, young women account for more than 50% of new young voters nationwide who registered

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7:42 on the east coast. now to an nbc news exclusive. u.s. officials have long warned that china is stealing technology and poaching talent from the united states. a new report says for decades scientists conducting u.s. government funded research at america's foremost national security laboratory have been recruited by china and that some of them have helped that country develop nor sophisticated weapons.

let's bring in nbc news justice correspondent, ken dilanian. >> u.s. officials have warned for a long time the chinese government is doing everything it can to buy, steal and obtain american technology. we have obtained a report offering new insights into one way that has been happening. showing how china for decades has been poaching scientists from america's foremost national lab. here's more. shocking details about how american taxpayers may have unwittingly helped china's military become more of a threat to the united states. a private intelligence report obtained exclusively by nbc news shows that more than 156 scientists who worked on taxpayer funded programs at los al mos national laboratory are conducting sensitive research in china, some with military applications, hyper sonic missiles, quiet sub ma means.

veterans helped china's military advance those and other cutting edge technology, super sizing the threat to national security. >> chinese scientists are working to try to make china's military more lethal. >> not only are they working on trying to do that, i think the evidence suggests they have successfully done it. >> founded private technologies a private firm open source from the internet. strider found that 80% of the los alamos scientists were recruited into talent programs, a concerted effort by china to pay chinese -born scientists to come home. many of them got nearly a million dollars. chinese thousand talents program and similar arrangements were a way for china to exploit american research for its own gain. >> this is not a couple of rogue

actors decide to go put stuff in their bags and head back to china. that is concerted effort by a nation state to identify, target and recruit overseas scientists back to their country. >> reporter: in 2019, a los alamos scientist pleaded guilty to playing about participating in a chinese talent program but it's not illegal for a scientist working at an american government lab to take their expertise to china. american officials point out that most chinese scientists who emigrate to the united states remain here. and many have made important contributions to national security. bill evanina says he's seen plenty of classified reports documenting the problem. >> this is the first time we have a comprehensive open source reporting that identifies the people, places, services and organizations in china who are benefitting from the talent who once worked in the national labs. >> los alamos where american

scientists created the atomic bomb is devoted to science and engineering in support. much of the research is unclassified. so many scientists left los alamos for jobs in china, they began calling themselves the los alamos club. international collaboration is critical to its efforts and works hard to protect technology. the chinese embassy in washington meanwhile did not respond to a request for comment. >> this report shows the kind of patient work along multiple vectors that china has engaged in for decades to get this kind of information. >> reporter: the report spotlights he received $20 million during an 18-year career at los alamos, held a top secret queue clearance and led a defense project developing bombs

that can penetrate underground. zhou left the united states for a research center in china. before that he hired another chinese scientist who worked with him on the bomb research. the report says that scientist filed a patent in china in 2007 for an ultra thick penetrating warhead. he is now a vice president at china's southern university of science and technology, known as sustech which conducts defense research. he did not respond to our request for comment. 15 los alamos veterans work at sustech, the report says he made major contributions to the hyper sonic missile program. he did not respond to e-mails from nbc news. >> no one can say this is not a national security issue, to acoustic capabilities and warheads, we are perpetrating

using weapons against us. >> reporter: a scientific brain drain that is making one of america's most dangerous adversaries more powerful. >> and you may wonder what u.s. intelligence officials are doing about this, willie, and the answer is not enough, according to those paying close attention. as i was working on the story, the senate intelligence committee released a reporting saying that the u.s. government counter intelligence enterprise was not well positioned to stop china and others to steal technology. >> this is not exactly news to a lot of people who work in washington. a couple of years ago, there was a bipartisan senate report that looked at this program from china about the exploitation about american research and it being taken back to china. what does the fbi, what does the intelligence community propose to do about it? >> you know, you're absolutely right, willie, the u.s. has known about these talent recruitment programs for years. it wasn't until 2019 that the energy department, which runs los alamos banned employees and

contractors from participating in them. this is a hard problem because most of the research at places like los alamos is unclassified, and the u.s. does benefit from opening its doors to foreign scientists. it's becoming more and more clear there are significant costs to doing that, willie. >> ken n watching and listening to your report just now, i couldn't help but think about a conversation i had with the assistant director of the fbi, jim calstrom 25 years ago in which he pointed out that he thought that this issue that you are just reporting on again was one of the most critical issues that this country faced in terms of national security. so do we have any idea of how we address this long-term conundrum. how do we address this? >> you know, people in academia and these research institutions are grappling with that right now.

rob dayley, a mandarin speaker at the wilson center and a long time advocate of open relationships, he thinks stop hosting visiting delegations of chinese post reappraisal of this open relationship that academia and research institutions have had with chinese scholars, because in so many cases, not all cases, often the u.s. benefits from this open relationship, but there's also a cost. they're going back to china, taking with them insights they learned here in the united states. and a place like los alamos, which is devoted to national security research. this is not harvard. this is the place where nuclear weapons were invented. so people are really having a hard think about what we do about this. there's no easy answers. >> such a fascinating, enlightening report. ken dilanian, thanks for bringing it to us. still ahead, we are digging

deeper into new legal issues surrounding former president trump, including the lawsuit filed yesterday by the new york state attorney general and the appeals court decision to allow the justice department to continue its criminal investigation into the mar-a-lago documents case. chris matthews joins our conversation on the potential political impact and much more. and the major move by the fed that sent the markets tumbling and the heads of the largest u.s. banks expressing major concern about the state of the economy. plus, nbc's richard engel reports for us from the ukrainian/russian border. all when we come back on a busy thursday morning on "morning joe."

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welcome back to "morning joe." the aaron judge home run watch continued last night in the bronx. the big swings of the game belonged to oswald do cabrera and torres. cabrera hit a grand slam in the first inning. torres hit a home run in the eighth inning. capping things off with a three-run home run later in the inning to help the yanks beat the pirates 14-2. judge, meanwhile, went 2 for 4 with a pair of doubles and did come up one last time in the ninth inning with a chance to tie the american league single-season home run record. >> ball four. the crowd doesn't like it. >> those fans hung in an 11-2 game late at night in new york to see judge hit that home run. he walked on four pitches. we've been talking about this this morning. i'm sure he's a nice kid, but

that pitcher was so bad that i don't think he was pitching around judge. he couldn't find the zone. >> totally agree. couldn't find the plate. it was not an intentional/unintentional walk. he couldn't find the plate. >> this sets up something special potentially this weekend. >> drop it. >> four games, red sox/yankees. >> i object to the word special. >> here's how i see it playing out. >> how do you see it? >> he ties the record tomorrow night, friday night. crowd is electric. they don't have to go to work the next day. everybody is gassed up. you save the record breaker for the espn prime time game on sunday against the red sox. how do you feel about my analysis? >> i think your analysis is pretty good. i don't know about the timing of it, i can almost guarantee you that in the course of these four games, red sox/yankees, the end of this tragic season for my boston red sox, aaron judge will

hit 61, he'll hit 62, he'll maybe even get to 63 off the red sox. it will harken back to the days of 1961, mantle and maries in the great home run fight. red sox are in yankees stadium. tracy stalin is on the mound. third pitch he threw, maybe the first to roger marris, bang. right field home run for number 1. >> back then, right field was -- >> do you consider 61 to be the home run title? >> it's tough. i don't know. the record book it says 73. i know the bonds thing, we know he's implicated in p.e.d.s, but it's the record. it would be nice if this is the american league record, which i agree he may get this weekend. he might be able to get the major league record. maybe he hits 12 dingers this weekend. >> aaron judge said the record

is 73. he should, any way, set the american league record, but 73, he won't get. >> it's a tough one. baseball purists -- there's a lot of them -- they say it's 61. i think it's 73. >> what do the yankees do with aaron judge who is a free agent after -- >> give him whatever he wants. a stake in the team? great. you can have it. a penthouse in the nicest building in the city, we'll get it for you. how smart was he not to take the deal at the beginning of the year? no, i'll lay low, see how things go, we'll talk at the end of the year. he's having one of the greatest single seasons in baseball history. >> could be a triple crown winner for the first time in 12 years. >> he's sitting there right now. red sox fans are very interested in his services next year, too. aaron judge's services. >> given my age and my background, i'm still thrilled that yas joined the triple crown in 1967. i sent you the picture of the front page of the daily news

earlier, 2004, i live with that. i'm happy with that. >> you can dine out on that. aaron judge gets another swing at it tonight in the bronx against the boston red sox. all right. we're just now at the top of the hour. coming up on 8:00 here in new york. let's get back to the legal issues surrounding former president trump. the federal appeals court ruling on the classified documents seized from mar-a-lago and the new civil suit filed by new york state attorney general. kristen welker has more. >> reporter: this morning, a new legal setback for former president trump. a federal appeals court unanimously ruling that the justice department can resume reviewing classified documents seized from mar-a-lago as part of its criminal probe. reversing a ruling by a federal judge -- >> it's a very unfair situation. >> reporter: in a fox news interview recorded before the decision, mr. trump's most extensive comments yet about the search at mar-a-lago in which

fbi investigators seized more than 11,000 government documents including dozens marked classified. mr. trump insisted that he had declassified everything. >> you're the president of the united states, you can declassify by saying it's declassified, even by thinking about it. >> reporter: the appeals court noted that mr. trump had not presented any evidence that he declassified records. for the first time, mr. trump also saying without evidence that other personal items were taken. >> i think they took my will. i found out yesterday. i said where is it? >> reporter: it's one of a number of ongoing investigations swirling around the former president. from election and january 6th investigation probes to a criminal investigation in new york, and a civil case there, where mr. trump received his second legal blow in a matter of hours yesterday. earlier, new york's attorney general, letitia james, announced she was suing mr. trump accusing him and his children of a scheme to falsely

inflate the value of assets like declaring a new york property was $524 million, even though an appraiser valued it at 200 million. all to obtain favorable loans and better tax rates. >> it's the art of the steal. >> reporter: the lawsuit seek $250 million in damages and a ban on blocking the trumps from running businesses in new york. >> she campaigned on it four years ago. she just talked about trump and we're going to indict him. >> reporter: that's an apparent reference to this video posted by eric trump showing james vowing to sue mr. trump even before she was elected. >> oh, we're going to sue him. we'll be a real pain in the [ bleep ]. >> kristen welker reporting there. let's bring in chris matthews and charles coleman. charles, what do you make of this lawsuit we saw yesterday?

how serious is the potential for a problem here for donald trump? >> i think we already know it's a serious problem for donald trump, he knows it, too. if you read the complaint, it makes clear that donald trump attempted to settle this at one point but letitia james wasn't interested in whatever it was he was offering. i think what people have to understand is we've been focused on the myriad criminal investigations that donald trump has been engrossed in and engulfed in to this point. i've said for a long time, it may very well be like al capone, something like mail fraud, tax fraud. we've seen donald trump's misrepresentation around his taxes, finances on a personal level as well as the valuations of his properties are coming back to bite him. letitia james is holding his feet to the fire because there are not two separate rules of the law regardless if you've been the former president. this is a serious issue.

he understands that. i do believe the criminal referrals that letitia james had in her complaint should also be of concern to him, though i will say for me, that raises more questions than it does give answers because these were already in front of certain bodies and entities that should have already seen all the evidence that's contained. >> that's where i wanted to go. the manhattan district attorney already took a pass on this. what would change the calculation for someone else? >> i thought a lot about that. i think the biggest difference that you may see is during the curse of this three-year investigation, letitia james had an opportunity to talk to over 60 different witnesses and review literally millions of documents. all of that evidence may not have been available to the previous entities that reviewed this information before. so it may be they got additional information from witnesses that weren't cultivated earlier in the investigation, that may now provide a pathway to different criminal investigations to move forward whereas there didn't seem to be one previously.

i think that's going to be the biggest difference. we're likely going to see these entities revisit what they have done before, revisit the information they had in their investigations and see is there anything more here that would allow us to move forward with an indictment? >> chris, very few people know more about washington, d.c., the mechanics of the city, the politics of the city, how things operate in the city. i'll read you a quote that i'm willing to bet you did not know what's contained in this quote about the people. here's the quote. it's from the former president. you may have just heard it in the clips we played. we are having a lot of problems with nara, that's the archives people. you know, nara is a radical-left group of people. chris, where are you on all of this? >> well, let's start with everything that's going on right now. i think the president's ice cream cone is melting. i look at all around the case in

new york with letitia james, clearly he has gotten a lot of prestige from working people, regular people when they see all his wealth, they see the power of owning that house, that mansion on 5th avenue, of owning mar-a-lago. all they think about is wealth. i have the biggest audience for anybody. largest audience for an inauguration of anybody in history. these big bragging numbers are a part of trump's personality. the bragging and bullying work together. little people are impressed by the money, the supermodel wife. now he has his daughter indicted with him? this is changing the look of that household. he will tell his daughter, sorry about this, sorry about getting you indicted, for getting you to sign things you shouldn't have signed. he treated allen weisselberg

like he treated sean spicer. he told him to enlarge the square footage of an apartment? there are opinions, but there are no new facts. you can't create facts. he's creating new facts about the square footage of his properties and the wealth he has. and he's been lying. like he was with the crowd size and his health reports. now i think it is melting all around him. i think letitia james is moving. i think the 11th circuit down in florida is helping him move to actually study those documents. and i think, of course, doubling back, what's going on is that the house and merrick garland are going back to the original crime of september 6th. they're going back to what role he played in endangering the life of his own vice president. i think they'll look at that clearly and saying they're not there to hurt me, but they were there to hurt the vice president. eugene, the report we saw, the

police officer with the capitol police, he was the guy defending people like mitt romney. the president was the one leading them on to attack him. i think they have to penetrate that key crime there, january 6th, before they end this case. >> they may be doing that as we speak. we heard trump's claim to sean hannity last night that a president can declassify something even by thinking about it. also in the interview, trump went down a line of reasoning that seemed to surprise even sean hannity. >> there's also a lot of speculation because of what they did, the severity of the fbi coming and raiding mar-a-lago. were they looking for hillary clinton emails that were deleted but around someplace. >> you're not saying you had it -- >> no, they may be saying -- they may have thought it was in there. >> okay. >> a lot of people said the only thing that would give the kind

of severity that they showed by coming in and raiding with many, many people is the hillary clinton deal, the russia, russia, russia stuff, or -- there are a number of things. the spying on trump's campaign. so they spied on my campaign. >> chris, sean hannity jumping in quickly in defense of the former president. >> hillary clinton, the last outpost of defense. bringing her name up for the crazies who are saying i still don't like hillary clinton. get them out there. that's all he's got. blaming the fbi for looking for hillary clinton's materials in his house? that's not funny. >> it's the default setting to go to that. >> sure is. >> there's this sense, and there always has been, that donald trump just gets away with things. no matter how grave the offense, all the way up to an attempted coup against the united states government and overturning an election. you watched his life and career, you understand how washington works.

do you get the sense that this time is different, that he may finally be brought to justice in whatever form that is? >> i think letitia james pursued her case, civil case, but it could lead to another criminal action in new york city. the georgia case is moving forward. the case involving the papers, the top-secret papers is moving. they're faster moving because they're clear cases of mismanagement or illegality, and they're both clearly trump's fault. he had the papers with him. he took them with him. he did it all. so they can move faster on these. i think, as you suggested, i think they're moving on the central charge of what role he played in the insurrection. when he said they're not there to hurt me, don't check them through the metal detectors, let them go to the hill and do whatever they want to do with their bear sprays, whatever they got, let them use what they want against our police officers and ultimately my vice president.

that, to me, is clearly in there somewhere. if mark meadows talks, a lot will happen. >> charles, the -- moving from the attorney general of new york, not the only legal setback yesterday. the 11th circuit court of appeals ruled with doj saying that they no longer had to pause their review of the classified documents as they put together their case potentially against donald trump. how significant is this? >> very significant. i think it verifies and affirms the decision of the doj to fully file that appeal in front of the 11th circuit. a lot of people questioned the decision at the time wondering will this further delay what they're trying to do in the long-run. what i said at that time and now, they could not allow that decision to stand from a precedence standpoint. what we've seen in terms of the decision from the 11th circuit, they'll continue this criminal investigation. the 11th circuit went back, looked at the decision from the district court and decided, you know what?

system of this doesn't make sense. it's what many people have been saying all along about that district court decision and that order granting the special master. in terms of the way the judge did not do a good job of laying out the reasoning, and the 11th court looked at that and said we cannot impede the doj from doing what needs to be done in this situation. and trump's attorneys have not made a compelling argument to allow us to do so. doing that, reverses some of the precedent that may have been created had they let that district court decision stand. it was the right move. i think it will be a big blow for team trump. >> the intelligence community can get back to the business of reviewing those classified documents. joining us now, chairman of the judiciary committee, dick durbin of illinois. mr. chairman, good to see you. we were talking a minute ago about the department of justice and where it stands into its

investigation of january 6th and the attempted coup and overturning of the 2020 election. what is your understanding about where that investigation may be, how it's moving along and what you all on your committee are looking at? >> the good news is that the investigation is proceeding through the house of representatives, the january 6th committee has done an extraordinary job. and it's also good news that we have a department of justice under merrick garland that is separate from the white house. it's not the president's personal lawyer. in fact, merrick garland views himself as the peoples lawyer in this country. i don't know his agenda. it's a good thing i don't. he's looking at the facts coming out in the january 6th situation, and i'm sure going to evaluate them. when we have evidence of trump, it's a refreshing change to have an attorney general who's independent. >> ginni thomas will meet with

the january 6th committee, she's the wife of supreme court justice clarence thomas. the committee has evidence she exchanged emails with trump lawyer john eastman about his strategies to overturn the 2020 election. there were emails encouraging -- there was a conspiracy theory spreading that biden and his family and -- she sent nearly identical emails to lawmakers in arizona days after the 2020 reelection. her lawyer said thomas was concerned about the future of the country under president biden's leadership but she did not have any role or information

about the january 6th attack on the capitol. we should note, clarence thomas was the only justice to dissent when the supreme court ruled that former president trump could not hold presidential records from the january 6th committee. chairman, you expressed concern in realtime about the potential conflict of interest for justice thomas. what do you make of ginni thomas going before the january 6th committee? >> let's get to the bottom line here. mrs. thomas has the right to exercise any authority given to her by the constitution that is part of someone's civic duty or civic opportunity and responsibility. when she does that, her husband ought to think twice about the role he's playing on the united states supreme court and have the good common sense and good taste to step aside from cases that are in conflict with his wife's active political involvement. we have evidence of that over and over again. clarence thomas has no

insensitivity to that conflict of interest and it's obvious he should have. >> senator durbin, last month in august, a very wealthy guy crib contributed $1.6 billion to a conservative non-profit institution in washington. they'll dispense this money over the course of i don't know how many election campaigns and how many years. but they're not going to have to record much other than the amount of money that is donated to whoever they donate it to. is there any hope at all that the spoilage that so much money does to our political system on both sides of the aisle, is there any way that we can clean this up? >> when the american people get fed up with it. look at the situation, the

american businessman made a fortune, $1.6 billion in an electronics business, sold it, and gave it to an entity controlled by leonard leo, the same man who founded the federalist society. the federalist society produced the acceptable list of nominees for the supreme court which donald trump advertised and publicized. every single trump nominee that came before us in the last four years in his presidency had the stamp of approval from the federalist society. look what we got on the supreme court and what they did in the dobbs decision? now leonard leo is at work again and fully financed by this businessman and $1.6 billion that he can inject into races across america to produce electoral results. this is the reality of secret dark money and the american people get sick of it and don't believe that a 90-year-old businessman in chicago should control america's political future. when they vote against the

people they're proposing, then we'll see a change. >> senator, chris matthews has a question for you. >> senator, all my life candidates for the presidency, including incumbents, have accepted the victory -- the voting decision of the electorate on election day. they all said, i lost. some were poetic about it, they owned it up in hours that they lost the election. all the way through hillary clinton the next morning saying i lost. i'm sorry i lost. and this character -- that's what i call him, a character -- this person, i don't know if he's a public servant at all, donald trump has refused to admit and many of his followers as hillary clinton said on this program last week, are enthralled with him to the point that they believe him when he says i won. i won by the most votes in history. what can we do with this person who will not admit the american voter made a decision, they

didn't want him anymore. >> he's a little man with a big ego. that's the reality of the situation. i've been through elections which i lost, and many which i won. when i lost, i called and conceded to my opponent. that is considered to be normal american practice. but not with this former president. he refuses to accept the reality that the american people rejected him and he's been pushing the big lie ever since. it troubles me greatly that some of my colleagues in the senate and the house of representatives whom i like and respect will not speak out against the big lie. they're silent in that situation when they should be very vocal. this is the fundamental of democracy in america. and i will tell you what donald trump is doing is not only an exercise in ego but it's dangerous to the future of this country. >> senator durbin, in the wake of the search, the fbi search of mar-a-lago, there was a real spike in the number of threats against law enforcement, against fbi, others who worked in the

doj and concern among law enforcement officials that as this investigation continues, particularly were it to lead a potential indictment for the former president or members of his family, that there could be more danger and indeed violence. you had a resolution condemning violence and threats against the fbi that passed unanimously in the senate. tell us why that's important, particularly because that means you had some republicans on board. >> we sure did. we had a hearing and they brought in the fbi and they told us in detail what they faced since the august 8th search warrant was exercised in mar-a-lago. it's terrible. it's threatening to them and their families and it gets very personal. so i introduced this resolution to say this is unacceptable. never, never, never allow violence against anyone exercising your political right under the constitution. i made that clear. i put it on the floor and said if any republican wants to stand up and defend the situation

where former president trump is calling fbi agents "vicious monsters" that's the phrase he used, come to the floor now and confront me on this resolution. not a single one would do it. it passed unanimously. >> many of your republican colleagues picked up on that rhetoric from donald trump against the fbi and irs. senator dick durbin of illinois, thank you very much. appreciate it. chris, before we let you go, it's a great question, and maybe one of the questions of our time that you just asked senator durbin about this new idea about democracy, if you lose, you just protest the results. what are your fears about this fall even as you look at candidates, some of whom have said openly if i lose, it's because the election was rigged. >> there's a dozen of them. the "washington post" and "new york times" did surveys this week about those who won't say what they'll do. i think we got a good education recently in how the british system does their business.

every week the prime minister, liz truss, will go to see king charles iii and tell him what his government policy is, because she sets the policy with the cabinet. she tells him. he accepts it, that shows deference to the crowd that she serves in the face of. and in our system, you tell the american people what happened in their election because they're the ones who make the decisions about who serves. you tell them who won, who lost. it's been a wonderful system. it's not written in the constitution, but it's the way we are. you admit decision. you accept the decision of the american voter. this person -- i don't want to call him a public servant, i don't know what he is, you cannot deny democracy to a democracy. he's doing it, and he's spreading the word through his peeps that it's okay to lie. why would you say an election when you're running for re-election again, why would you not admit an election is a

square deal. you benefit from the legitimacy of the american democratic system. we have honest elections in this country. this is not a place like pakistan or zimbabwe that had trouble with elections. this is a good country that has honest elections and people come to the voting booth, they mail in their votes, show up, do their job. recognize that. this character and the people around him don't recognize that. they don't accept the right of the voter to pick a winner. >> and reports and reviews and recounts and court decisions confirm what you just said about the 2020 election, that it was secure. chris matthews, always great to have you on. still ahead on "morning joe," thousands were arrested across russia yesterday for protesting their government's war against ukraine. we'll get a report from richard engel at the russian/ukraine border when "morning joe" comes right back. comes right back aw... this'll take forev—or not. do i just focus on when things don't work, and not appreciate when they do?

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. welcome back. president biden condemned russia yesterday during his speech at the united nations general assembly. speaking to nearly 200 world leaders, biden framed europe's war as part of what he says is a larger fight to protect

democracy across the world. >> russia has shamelessly violated the core tenets of the united nations charter. no more important than the clear prohibition against countries taking territory of their neighbor by force. the united states is determined to defend and strengthen democracy at home and around the world because i believe democracy remains humanity's greatest instrument to address the challenges of our time. if nations can pursue their imperial ambitions without consequences, we put at risk everything this institution stands for, everything. let me also urge every nation to recommit to strengthening the nuclear nonproliferation regime through diplomacy. no matter what else is happening in the world, the united states is ready to pursue critical arms controls measures.

a nuclear war cannot be won and must never be fought. >> andrea, that speech comes at such a fascinating time in this war when you have cracks even among allies of vladimir putin, president xi not offering his support. president modi being openly critical of vladimir putin. how was that received in the room yesterday. >> it was received well in the room. i thought it was one of joe biden's better speeches, in fact, and he worked really hard on it. the flight over to london, back from london, going to the funeral in between and cared a great deal about this. they added a couple of lines because of putin's speech. they believe that putin is bluffing on the nuclear weapons, but our concern about what he will do if he's cornered, backed into a corner, and that's why trying to keep that balance with zelenskyy, the recent advances by ukraine in the northeast have given them a lot of momentum and a lot of hope, and the

extraordinary achievements of the ukrainians, the heart and soul of the ukrainians against these, you know, hideous war crimes, unspeakable war crimes. so they're working really hard to make sure that he does not cross a red line which would be to go with these long-range artillery, which he's now gotten, which have helped him succeed in this counteroffensive, that he doesn't go across that red line into mother russia. and the concern is that russia, by going ahead with these fake annexations and fake ref , to redefine, and that would be, you know, bringing nato. that's what joe biden has been so determined to do. don't make this the u.s. and nato versus russia, because that is something, as he said, a

nuclear war cannot be fought and can never be won. >> that speech a couple of days ago from putin did have the air of desperation going all the way to threatening nuclear war. how is the international community receiving that threat, how seriously are people taking it? >> people are disconcerted by it. the person who possesses the world's largest nuclear arsenal would be making these kinds of et there is is unnerving. that said, i think the president got it just about right yesterday. this is about world order. it's about imperial ambitions cannot be allowed to be met. there's not a lot of rules in this world, the only basic rule is you can't acquire territory by force. the corollary here is we can't award anybody for threatening, much less using nuclear weapons. if putin is able to succeed, think of the lesson that teaches north korea, iran, anybody else that says nuclear weapons are a

valuable strategy. for 75 years they haven't been used. we cannot allow that to happen. so we basically have to take it as a bluff, and we've got to think really hard what will it take to make sure that vladimir putin is deterred from going down that path. i think essentially the united states and nato have to be resolved and ignore the fact of putin's bluster. don't accept the sham annexations. essentially ukraine will go on militarily, hopefully take back these places. putin, to me, is acting out of desperation, out of weakness. he basically took the step of the mobilization. you saw the protests in moscow. he has protests from the right that he's not doing enough. from the left that he's doing too much. vladimir putin is a cornered guy that's dangerous. this is not a time to give into nuclear blackmail. coming up, we'll go live to atlanta where blayne alexander sat down with georgia's democratic nominee for governor. how her campaign is going after votes in typically red parts of the state. that conversation is ahead on "morning joe." "morning joe."

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>> what's going on? >> i was with a patient, what's happening? >> hannah? >> that was the scene from the new apple tv plus mini series "five days at memorial." it details the response to hurricane katrina at one new orleans hospital and the questions surrounding the deaths of dozens of people there including some believed to be at the hands of the hospital's medical staff. joining us now are two of the show's creators, and sherry fink, a producer on the series who wrote the book on which it is based. sherry, i'll start with you to set the scene.

we're looking at in this book, the book that you wrote, a doctor, two nurses and many others facing an incredible ethical challenge in the middle of this disaster. can you tell us what compelled you to document the entire thing? >> well, i have a background as a -- trained as a physician and worked in emergency response for many years myself. and when i heard this story as i was volunteering in new orleans after katrina, the fact that so many deaths occurred in this one hospital and that staff became so desperate that they began discussing the ending of patients lives. and at that point, it wasn't clear what had really happened. but the fact that things had gotten to that point at an american hospital in a beloved city was something that was important to look into, what went wrong and how can we do things better in the future.

>> john, you took on this project to produce. i think i understand. i read the book and it is powerful. it's one of the most dramatic five days you can ever imagine. it changed the lives of these medical professionals forever. in new york city, you walk around and everything is sort of back to normal after covid, except when you see a first responder. except when you see a doctor or nurse walking to their shift. they still look traumatized. >> yeah. first, mika, good to see you again as always. talking about first responders, talking about what they went through, it's very personal to me. my father is still alive, he's a doctor, he doesn't practice anymore, but he was in the united states air force. he pretty much seen it all and did it all. when carlton originally sent me sherry's article, after reading it, the first thing i did i sent it to my father because i wanted a definitive answer.

i wanted to know was it right? was this wrong? what were the circumstances? what was the take of someone who has been there. and my father and his response -- i will say this, i can't be objective, but i think my father is probably one of the most moral men who walked the planet. his response was he was glad he wasn't there and didn't have to make those kinds of decisions. that ambiguity and that grayness, one of the things i appreciated in carlton's approach was a lot of times in television audiences thrive for a very definitive answer. you see it constantly in tv at the end of 42 minutes, the police come in, they arrest the bad guy, there's a bit of satisfaction. this was a gray story. carlton's approach was to keep that grayness -- and that's a reality. you see the response. people want answers, answers are not always easy. >> yeah. i really loved it. carlton, if you could develop upon that, what were some of the

questions you wanted the audience to really start grappling with as they watched this? >> i think the questions -- i read sherry's book. i was so moved by it. i thought i knew what happened during hurricane katrina but i really didn't. that activated me and made me want to turn this into a television show. i think these questions come up, and, you know, what happens when medical professionals are put in the position of having to make decisions about who gets care and who doesn't? of course, that's pretty metaphorical for the time we live in now. in our story, it's two patients and who gets on a hospital, who doesn't. now in this pandemic we were just asking those same questions, who gets a ventilator, who gets a vaccination? health officials have to make

these decisions. they're impossible decisions. we need to find a way as a society not to put health care professionals in a place where they're forced to make those decisions. >> cornelius, here's the scene where your character, dr. bryant king, discusses the racial bias behind the response to hurricane katrina. >> some people were afraid of people outside of the hospital, for me, it was the other way around. >> you were afraid of the people in the hospital? >> let me put it this way -- the stories going around about how there were looters, rapists and snipers roaming the city, how new orleans was under the control of criminals, what they were referring to is black folks. i saw this on the er ramp when people my skin color were being turned away. i tried to help them. >> why aren't we helping these people? >> we don't have no room for these people. >> we're not going to help them at all? >> when i saw what was

happening, i said, man, there's only so much i can do or is a. >> it was so powerful. your character is so powerful. tell us what you want the audience to learn about that racial bias that perhaps many in the chaos sort of lost and that your character really, really almost -- it's like he's shocked to see how bad it is. >> yes. thanks for having me. good to see everybody. i think it's just that. i think perception and reality is king. and it's something that we all are experiencing. so, from a character's kind of perspective, he's just really telling his story from his eyes and what he saw and what his experience is. and i think when we think about how we go out in the world and what we experience, it's really through our own experiences and how we were raised, how we were brought up and the circumstances that we see. clearly, when you look at what

happened in new orleans -- by the way, i had heard of hurricane katrina obviously, but i knew nothing about what took place at memorial hospital. so, really it was kind of a new story for me, just hearing what happened. so i was very very kind of shoc and in turn, very honored to be a part of the project to help tell the story to shed some light on what happened and for many people, people who didn't know anything about it. you're right, it's a predominantly african american community. most of the patients and residents there are african american, so my character being one of the only black doctors on the staff, and he was new to the hospital, he had only been there for a couple months, he's seeing everything for the first time. he's dealing with a lot, new place, new people, new procedures, new politics, and he's having a tough time seeing

what's going on. i think when we are all kind of in a position where we see something that we they are don't understand or don't like, it's very interesting and difficult for us to find a way to voice our opinion, to voice what we think, so speak up, speak truth to power, if you will. and so i just felt that the audience kind of seized that struggle through my character, but in turn, knowing that anytime you decide to speak truth, it's always going to be the best decision. >> your character raises some really important questions and issues. john ridley, you are, like, an original member of the morning -- some people might not remember because our show is now 15 years old. >> amazing. >> many the early days you co-hosted with us. why don't you take the final question to anybody on our panel here. >> one thing i'd like to put forward, because this was a massive production, and carlton,

people don't to ne, one of the great producers in the history of television among the series he's done, "lost," this was such a massive production, and yet within it, carlton, one of the things i admired about working with you is you never lost as cornelius says, that sense of humanity. talk about for a second what it took to replicate this extraordinary disaster and shooting this both from toronto and of course new orleans and shooting there and getting the human dynamic when we went down to new orleans, talk about what it took to put this production together. >> well, okay, but first of all, i think john is really underselling his own role in this. i mean, john wrote the pilot and really was the first person i went to with this story, and it wouldn't be anything without john ridley. his perspective, his genius as a

filmmaker has shaped this story and made it what it is. i hope you will all watch it. it's a beautiful piece of work, particularly i think the episodes that john directd are just so powerful and amazing. but we had this real challenge, which is how do you re-create a city that was 80% under water. we ended up building a 4 million gallon water tank outside of toronto. again, talking about how real life kind of resonates when you're telling this sort of story, we ended up shooting all the hospital stuff in canada because covid, when we made that decision, was -- there was much less covid in canada. and, you know, for the safety of our crew and the actors and we were using a lot of elderly people because obviously we needed the patients -- they were elderly. so we made decisions about how to make the story that was influenced by some of the same medical issues that we were exploing in another story at another time.

i hope that, you know, really we kind of can learn from this story in some way to lessen the impacts of other future potential disasters. we have this kind of gap between decarbonization and where we sit, and i think hopefully the story serves as an example for it. how do we actually adjust and adapt and prepare ourselves as a society for the inevitable disasters that will exist between a more hopeful future? and i think this story is hopefully a lesson for people who are in charge of helping make those decisions. >> well, i saw the series and read the book and "five days at memorial" is fascinating. it's streaming on apple tv plus. john ridley, cornelius smith, john, sherry, thank you all very much for joining us today. we'll be right back with much more "morning joe."

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it has been a bad di for donald trump. >> donald trump began his day by getting hit with the most massive lawsuit he has ever faced, a lawsuit that could wipe him out and bankrupt his adult children. >> donald trump falsely inflated his net worth by billions of dollars to unjustly enrich himself and to cheat the system. >> while it is not a criminal case, new york officials are turning some of their findings over to federal prosecutors regarding possible criminal acts they uncovered. >> in another blow, tonight there is breaking news on the investigation into the classified documents that trump stashed at his retirement home in mar-a-lago. a federal appeals court just before we went to air just ruled in favor of the justice department. >> the justice department can have access to roughly 100 highly sensitive and classified

documents that were taken from mar-a-lago. >> immediately we saw the appeals court issue this ruling. i was stunned to see it out so quickly. >> it's worth to recognize just how extraordinary this moment, this day is. almost easy to forget that trump had never been indicted or sued. today things look different. welcome back to "morning joe." a beautiful live picture of the sun just starting to creep up in los angeles. it's 6:00 in the morning, 9:00 a.m. in the east. i'm willie geist. joe and mika are under the weather this morning. in a moment we'll speak to msnbc's chief legal correspondent ari melber. in russia yesterday, 1,300 people arrested and reports that many were drafted into the russian military. richard engel will report for us