hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. a major win in court for the justice department, adding to the mountain of legal trouble facing the disgraced ex-president. last night, a federal appeals court ruled that doj can have access to the classified documents that were seized in the search of donald trump's private residence last month. that decision came from a three-judge panel, by the way, two of the judges were appointed by donald trump and the ruling is a total and complete rebuke of a previous decision made by judge aileen cannon, that blocked prosecutors from using those classified documents in their criminal investigation until a review by an independent arbiter, the so-called special master is complete. this decision reads in part, quote, the united states argues

that the district attorney likely errored in exercising its jurisdiction to enjoin the u.s.' use of the classified records in its criminal investigation. we agree. and there's more. the three-judge panel tears to shreds the arguments that trump and his lawyers have been making in public and in the court of law, that the records belong to him, or that somehow, at some unknown and unstated point in time, that he declassified the documents. also, from the ruling, quote, plaintiff, meaning donald trump, has not even attempted to show that he has a need to know the information contained in the classified documents. the plaintiff suggests that he may have declassified these documents when he was president. but the record contains no evidence that any of these records were declassified. in any event, at least for these purposes, the declassification argument is a red herring, because declassifying an official document would not change its content or render it personal.

so even if we assume that plaintiff did declassify some or all of the documents, that would not explain why he has a personal interest in them. the immediate impact of the court's decision, according to "the new york times," is that it would, quote, significantly streamline the process now underway before the special master. judge raymond dearry, who mr. trump's lawyers had recommended for the role. brand-new momentum in the doj's criminal probe into the ex-president's handling of classified documents, thanks to a win in federal court, is where we begin today. sadie gurman is here. she's the justice department reporter for the "wall street journal." also joining us, harry lipman, former u.s. attorney and former deputy assistant attorney general. also joining us, former fbi counterintelligence agent, pete strzok, and miles taylor is back, former chief of staff at the department of homeland security and the cofounder of the political party forward. harry lipman, tell me a this means for doj. >> it means basically the boot is off the neck. they can do really whatever they

want. they wanted these hundred documents. the rest of the things that judge canon ordered, as to the 11,000, the executive privilege, it's all, a, unnecessary, and b, potentially an irritant. but that's all it is. they can go forward now and do what they want, both to assess intelligence damage and to pursue their investigation. it almost doesn't matter. even if the separate event of the special master goes on and on, it doesn't stop. they could still indict him tomorrow. so, it really frees them up completely and makes this just a little bit of something they have to go through. i don't think they'll now appeal it to the 11th circuit. they can live with what they have. and as you say, it couldn't be a stronger rebuke of the fairly crazy opinions that they have endured over the last week from judge canon. >> so, pete, they don't use the word "crazy," but they walk

right up to the line in terms of how they describe what they found and the status of the investigation. let me read this from the ruling. according to the u.s., the criminal investigation will seek to determine among other things the identity of anyone who accesses the classified materials. whether any particular classified materials were compromised, and whether additional classified materials may be unaccounted for. it would be difficult, if not impossible, for the united states to answer these critical conditions if its criminal investigators are not permitted to review the seized classified materials. an injunction delaying or perhaps preventing the united states criminal investigation from using classified materials risks imposing real and significant harm on the united states and the public. this was the part that was both a relief and a pretty ominous sign of what judge canon had put in motion. tell me from the centuries stakeholders in all of this, your reaction to this decision.

>> well, i think the court gets it exactly right. those are the concerns that the government laid out in its briefing, first to judge canon, and later to the circuit court of appeals. those are very much the problems that were in front of the government because of judge canon's rrulings. again, this appeal decision, it does open up the floodgates for the government to go ahead in its investigation. and what's critical is, these are the documents again that they weren't turned over early on pop request. they weren't produced after the subpoena. these are the things that trump held on to so dearly, and they were only recovered after the search warrant. so whatever made those documents special, now the government has the ability to go out and certainly do a number of thing. but in my mind, the two primary investigative things they want to do is figure out, one, what are these documents and where do they come from? why are they special? who, what agency presented them to trump, when did they get presented to trump?

how did they make their way into the oval office. and the second part of that is who beyond trump accessed that. is there anything they can do to lineup access with the storage room or the office at the places where these were found? can they send them down to the laboratory at quantico to try to lift fingerprints and figure out, were there people who didn't have security clearances whose prints are showing up on these documents who accessed them. there's a broad set of government activity that's now open, they had this unfortunate delay, but now they're able to move forward. it's the right result. it never should have been delayed, but i'm very happy to see that the circuit court of appeals gets it. they understand the national security implications and they took the appropriate action. >> and a rebuke may not be a strong enough word, sadie. they completely blow out of the water the notion that these belonged to him. that they did belong to him, that they could belong to him, and that they will ever belong to him again.

absolutely blow that sort of attempt to argue that out of the water. do you think we'll continue to see that from trump's legal team? >> yes. so what you're starting to see, like you said, is just really judges who are examining this case really starting to scrutinize the suggestion from trump's lawyers. and from trump himself, you know, that these documents in question are declassified. now, trump, as you've pointed out, has come out and said that he can, as a president, declassify documents just by thinking about them. obviously, that's something that is very much in dispute. but what this court is saying, in this case, is that even if he had done that, even if they hadn't shown some type of proof that trump had declassified these documents, it doesn't really matter, because that doesn't render them a personal property of the former president. it doesn't render them his. they're still the property of the government. so in this case, the court said that that argument is a red herring. so i think what you're going to

start to see is increased scrutiny from the justice department on this argument and a lot of pressure from trump's lawyers to further explain their position on this particular issue. >> miles, sadie invoked the thought police defense. so i'm going to play it. i was on the fence about whether we could handle that, as a team, as a family here. i've made the executive decision that we can, indeed. this is an ex-president of the united states of america saying that one can think things declassified. here it is. >> it doesn't have to be a process, as i understand it. you know, there's different people say different things. but as i understand it, there doesn't have to be -- if you're the president of the united states, you can declassify just by saying, it's declassified. even by thinking about it, because you're sending it to mar-a-lago or to wherever you're sending it, and it doesn't have to be a process. there can be a process, but there doesn't have to be. you're the president. you make that decision. so when you send it, it's declassified.

i declassified everything. >> so much to unpack there. i'll start with to wherever, so maybe they didn't all even go to mar-a-lago. maybe some of them went to wherever. and this is the most intriguing part. it's declassified, even by thinking about it. so we -- there's a movie, i think, it's "minority report," the thought police. he declassified things in his imagination, miles. >> yeah, except, nicole, in "minority report," the cogs that were able to do that were hyperintelligent. what we're talking about is a very different subspecies here. you know, something strikes me, nicole, that critics of donald trump often get derided as people having trump derangement syndrome. they're bsessed with the former president. i think the label works a lot better for trump himself. this is truly deranged behavior, to think the way he's thinking.

and to talk the way the ex-president is talking. i mean, it's fitting to me that in susan glasser and peter baker's book that just came out, that they talk about how my former boss, john kelly, went and picked up a psych book to rye to understand donald trump. because even his own chief of staff genuinely thought he had mental health issues. and this is emblematic of what we saw during the trump administration. his view that the presidency was all-powerful and now, clearly, his view that those powers continue in the post-presidency. and by the way, donald trump would use those words. you and i have talked about it before, nicole. that he told us, when i was in the oval office, he wanted to use his magical powers to solve any number of different issues. that's how he thought about it. and during the covid response, donald trump said, when you're president of the united states, the authority is total. and that's the way it's got to be. that's why he admired dictators,

but that's simply not the case when it comes to classified information. and as we saw in the wake of the nixon presidency, the supreme court really came to the conclusion that presidential decisions need to be documented or memorialized in some way to be official government action. so, no, i don't believe the supreme court or any other court would agree with the notion that the president can just think and declassify papers. and at the end of that interview you aired with him, he said, everything's declassified. well, if that's the case, the vaults are open. and the country is vastly less secure right now. but, again, i don't think that's going to hold up in the courts. >> harry, i actually, i watched this last night, so that none of you have to. and what i was watching was, what are his lawyers dealing with? right, he's got -- i think there are six or seven investigations into this guy. and he's got legal teams, some of them are discreet, some of them overlap. he's got at least one facing legal problems, specifically for the mar-a-lago attestations. and when i heard him say that,

you know, i can declassify by thinking it, and i declassified everything, in that creepy voice, i thought, you know, what kind of defendant is he going to make? what does a jury make of someone like that? >> you know, you flash forward to the possibility of an indictment and think about his taking the stand and what the jury will make of him. and you know, they will justifiably, i think, be enraged by his various claims. there's so much comic and otherwise, one could make about this statement. i'll just cut to the legal chase from the opinion last night. this point that sadie raised about red herring, it's really going to matter. because what the 11th circuit is saying, we don't care if you declassified it by, you know, scratching your ear or having a thought in the shower. what matters is the content. and you need to show something specific. and that means they've dictated a process that judge dearie

ought to be able to do pretty quickly. take these 11,000 pages and show us what's on them specifically that gives you some personal interest. because, for example, for the classified, we cannot discern, that's a very polite appellate court speak for, are you kidding me, we can't discern what you're talking about. so the classification issue is now off the table after the 11th circuit, and he'll need to have some kind of declaration that gives some personal interest and i think we can all agree that saying that, you know, i dreamed about it, between my second and third cheeseburger last night will not cut it with judge dearie or any lawyer, even, even judge cannon. >> okay, pete strzok, the criminal investigation is sort of out of park, if you will, and back into drive what happens next? >> well, i think what you're going to see the fbi doing is, i'm sure what they have been doing all along.

and that's talking to various witnesses, that is gathering information about the totality of the documents. what's there, what's missing, what they might need to do to shore up statements that were made to trump, in particular. we had eric herschmann, who gave some testimony, at least reportedly, that he had warned trump that he shouldn't maintain these documents and needed to turn them over. so you'll see doj and the fbi working together first to make sure that all of these documents are accounted for. that there aren't still additional classified materials that are left out in the open, that are still at risk. and then the second thing is looking at the various elements of the crime. again, we're focused on the classified, but i think stronger cases arguably exist in the context of obstruction, certainly of not turning over or destroying records that shouldn't have been done. so doj and the fbi together will be looking at all of these things and looking at the elements of the crime. and one quick note, i don't think any of this, at the end of the day, what trump is doing, has anything to do with the law. what trump is trying to do is

create some story, create some reason for his supporters to sit there and believe that he's been wronged, give reason for shawn hannity at the beginning of that interview last night to plea to merrick garland and chris wray that we're going down a dark path as a nation. nothing has anything to do with the law for trump. this is all about rallying his support, making him think that he's maligned and he's under attack and that he should be able to fundraise yet more and more from them, and if push comes to shove, together those followers and stoke and foment the violence just like he did on january 6th. >> the dark path, miles taylor, started the day that the republicans nominated president -- you know, they let you grab him, you know, where, because you're famous, and ended on the day of the insurrection. what is shawn hannity talking about? >> i think a couple of things. one, despite all of that damage the past few years, it's

starting to look like this is the year of karma for donald trump and the republicans. he's just been held accountable this week on his mismanagement of his businesses before the presidency. it looks like doj is trending towards holding him accountable for abuses of presidential power, namely with, you know, classified information. and then potentially abuses of power related to handing over and being reluctant to transition power with the january 6th investigation. so i think that all of those chickens are going to be coming home to roost. i was astounded that hannity even did the interview. i hate to say, nicole, i also watched it, so that makes at least two of us here today. and you know, it was almost like someone trying to cover up for a drunk uncle. at points hannity would interject in the interview and try to coach trump along. and i think that to a question earlier in the panel, this might

even be a preview of what his defense looks like. if he's actually seated up there in front of a jury, you can imagine sweating lawyers wanting to act like sean hannity and throw him a bone and coax him a different direction, because he doesn't seem to be able to defend himself in public, let alone in a court of law. >> i thought it was interesting that a man under investigation by doj and a congressional committee for the incitement of a deadly insurrection threatens on sean hannity what the country will do. and when he says "the country," he doesn't mean the country, he means, my millions of followers. that's what he's talking about. and he issued that threat again yesterday, clearly and repeatedly. >> well, it's certainly not something that i think any of his -- any good defense lawyer, i think, would at least recommend, saying on national television. and it's also, you know, speaks to the kind of conduct that the january 6th committee and the justice department are looking at in terms of the events that led up to the attack on the capitol. they are examining whether mr.

trump or other people at the rally that proceeded the capitol attack made statements that incited his followers to storm the capitol. and we certainly know how persuasive the former president can be in rallying his base. so certainly, that could be an example of that. but, yes, it is more of the same behavior that we've seen and sort of speaks to the tone and tenor of the investigation and how contentious it is. >> yeah, i mean, also, i want to play something that feeds into where all of these paths come together. the movement toward the qanon conspiracy theorists, the qanon song playing at his rally last saturday, and the conspiracies that sean hannity broadcast that the twice impeached ex-president repeated last night about why the -- what the fbi might have been looking for. i'm going to play that for you. also, when we come back, the ex-president really hitting all of his supporters' triggers, if you will last night, stoking all of tease deep state paranoias

about the fbi. we'll show that to you. we'll look more at his desperate outreach to what remains in that fever pitch of followers of his. plus, we'll hear from michael cohen, who knows all too well about the decades and decades of intentional fraud, forth by the ex-president and his company and its leaders after yesterday's blockbuster lawsuit, we'll show you what michael cohen says could be the end of the con for the don. and later, the spouse of a supreme court justice, ginny thomas, will come in and speak with the january 6t committee. we'll bring you all of those stories and more after "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. " continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere.

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there's also a lot of speculation of what they did with the variety of the fbi coming in, raiding mar-a-lago. were they looking for the hillary clinton e-mails that were deleted, but they are around some place. >> wait, you're not saying you had -- >> no, no, they may be saying -- they may have thought that it was in there. >> it's so hard, but let's try to piece this together in his head, the fbi went before a judge and received a court-approved search warrant to look for hillary clinton's e-mails. yeah. this is where we are. and this is why it matters, pete strzok. we had an armed adherent to some of donald trump's conspiracy theories, storming an fbi

office. we have an unprecedented threat climate. not just for the fbi, but for nara, for the irs, for doj. the things he says that sound inane and stupid, because they are, whip up his supporters and endanger the lives and the safety of public servants. >> yeah, absolutely, nicole. and that's what's concerning. that is the point. when he goes on truth social and has a picture of him with a qanon pen and saying winter's coming or whatever the nonsense is, it is whipping up this conspiracy theory. he's trying to find a new base of support of these crazy conspiracy theorists, some of whom are inclined to violence. and if you look at sort of the non -- the social media that isn't facebook, that isn't twitter, things like patriots.win and other 4chan things that are not mainstream social media sites, you see an increasing prevalence of very violent rhetoric. and that's by design in trump's case. i think all of this again, to

what we spoke about earlier, this isn't, in a lot of ways, a legal fight for trump. this is a fight for trump to gain and maintain new followers, to shore up his base of support, and certainly, that base of support includes an increasing number of people who believe that there is violence afoot. that there is a civil war on the horizon. that there are things that they need to do to tick up arms, because trump is under attack, they are under attack, the second amendment is under attack. whatever their pet project is under attack, all by these folks who are represented by the men and women of the fbi, the prosecutors and men and whelm of the department of justice. and it is headed to exactly the sort of things that you mentioned. where people are going to take arms up and engage in violence. and i'm afraid we're at the front end, we're at the beginning of seeing what i fear is going to be a much more common occurrence, certainly as the midterm elections approach, and as we go through those. >> mile taylor, you've been warning about it for a long time. i am coming around to your view

about the republican party's enthusiasm for violence because of this. not only do they not condemn, this is in their face. jd vance is running for rob portman's seat in the u.s. senate. rob portman has said nothing since the qanon song played at the rally to elect rob portman's replacement. he's retiring. he's leaving. why not condemn the conspiracy theorists? donald trump began last night, repeated his threats that "the country" will not stand for this. stand for what? classified documents that endanger sources and methods and united states intelligence assets being compromised at your stinky golf club? where is -- or i guess, we know where they are, they're nowhere, but why? and what do you think they're complicit with now, as republicans doing nothing in the face of threats of violence? >> well, it's fear, ultimately. they've been made afraid, to come forward. and i'm not saying that that fear is fully justified, but

they're afraid for their jobs and, you know, their family's safety, and they've been made afraid by this political climate that is founded on intimidation. that donald trump has built. and these people will confess to it, when you have these conversations. i've got to be somewhere in the top ten people who sit down and have conversations with ex-trumpers and republicans to try to get them come forward. and my god, every week, when i these discussions, everything is another excuse. an excuse about why now is not the right time trump is gone, let's move on. it's a constant stream of excuses that really cover up what is ultimately fear. and it gets harder and harder the longer these people wait. and it's not just consequences for them, it's consequences for us as a country that this continues. it's enormously frustrating. and, you know, you can qualify how dangerous this is by looking at it in a national security context. we've talked before -- i always

make the comparison to the 9/11 period, because we were unified in confronting that threat, when federal authorities said there was chatter happening in an al qaida cell or with some terrorist group. but now, when federal authorities say that there is chatter here domestically, among terrorist groups about, as peter just said, civil war and armed rebellion, one-half of the political establishment, the republicans, turn the other way and ignore it. and they're not talking about it. and they're not condemning it. they are, in realtime, putting their fellow americans in danger by not getting on top of this threat. it's a very real threat. and right now, the ex-president of the united states is pumping the nightmare fuel of political assassinations and political violence into our discourse. i mean, that's really what this comes down to. and that's not hyperbole. you talk to experts who study political violence, and they will tell you, what we're seeing right now is a dangerous

precursor to a period, potentially, of assassination activity in our political system. that's really scary to say, and to think about, but a lot of those folks will say they're surprised it hasn't happened yet, because of all of the lets we've seen to governors and senators and congressmen, and as we've talked about before, up to and including the vice president of the united states, who was threatened with hanging on january 6th. >> it's unbelievable. at least in his courtroom, judge dearie is making clear that there will be no gaslighting. harry lipman, this story has broken since we've been on the air. let me read some of it to you. judge dearie asked trump's lawyers whether they believe that they lied about seized documents. the special master ordered trump's lawyers to state in a court filing whether they believe fbi agents lied about documents seized from the former president's florida residence in a authorized court search or

claim to have taken items not actually in trump's possession. raymond dearie, the special master, told trump's legal team to state by september 30th whether they believe any of the seized items were incorrectly described in the justice department's 11-page inventory list, which said that some of the documents were highly classified. dearie also told them to say whether they are claiming that any items on the inventory list were not, in fact, taken from the premises. this is because, and this is important, trump has alleged -- trump has said on social media and in television interviews that the fbi planted items and described as classified documents that he had declassified when they searched his mar-a-lago residence and private club on august 8th. his lawyers have not asserted that in court, however. instead, saying that they have not reviewed the seized materials and are unable to confirm whether the government's inventory list is accurate. your reaction to that, harry? >> i mean, as a lawyer, i'm

really so buoyed and reassured that the legal system, it takes a while to come into the jaws of court, but then it really operates as a crucible of truth. everything that pete says, miles says, is true about the threat facing us, but at a minimum, to be able to have the truth-seeking function that is at the core of what the system does, operate properly, is just after four years of trump speak and saying any and every lie, so -- such a relief. so dearie says again, put up or shut up. are you really saying the fbi planted things? are you really saying these things? then put them a declaration where you have consequences for committing perjury and then we'll consider them. and it's part of the whole thrust of what he and the 11th circuit are saying. let's have some actual evidence, some actual proof that matters in the law. and if not, then take it

somewhere else. this is -- we're in the legal system now. we operate with evidence, truth, burdens, and the like. so it's not the full answer, but it's a deeply, i think, reassuring one that the legal system is operating to force out the lies as this is happening exactly now and also the whole declassification canard that trump, you know, was saying, most recently with hannity. >> sadie, "the post" also reports that dearie's order marks the first time that a court has demanded trump's lawyers back up trump's claims. this is from dearie's order. quote, the submission shall be plaintiff's final opportunity to raise any factual dispute, as to completeness and accuracy of the detailed property inventory. "the post" also notes that it's a striking difference from how judge eileen cannon, the florida-based judge who granted trump's request to appoint a

special master has handled her part of the case. does your reporting suggest that trump's legal team is nimble and prepared for someone like judge dearie? >> well, we know that the trump legal team had brought on an additional lawyer, who was somebody who was widely respected, viewed as a little bit more nimble than some of the other trump lawyers who have been appearing on television. and so, it remains to be seen how that will play before this particular judge. what is interesting, though, is we saw the justice department really pushing back on the idea of appointing a special master, calling this sort of, you know, a very misguided decision. but what has happened, ultimately, is that the special master and the 11th circuit have paved the way for the justice department to really do its work, and for, you know, trump's allegations against the fbi to be tested, publicly, and skrut

scrutinized by the legal system. so what is ending up happening in the end, at least so far, is we are ending up seeing this big victory for doj, and a path forward in its ongoing investigation into, you know, trump's handling of these documents. >> sadie gurman, pete strzok, miles taylor, thank you so much for starting us off on another wild, wild news day. harry sticks around. we'll turn to lawsuit facing the ex-president. he workshopped some legal defense excuses overnight. northeast a whole heap of trouble with this one. much more to unpack in that 222-page lawsuit. that story's next. t 222-page lawsuit that story's next. or an unbearable itch. this painful, blistering rash can disrupt your life for weeks. it could make your workday feel impossible. the virus that causes shingles is likely already inside of you. if you're 50 years or older, ask your doctor or pharmacist about shingles.

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to see your dogs personalized meal plan. somebody has to always fall on the sord for him. right now it looks like it will probably be one or both of his kids and possibly himself as well. i testified for over 400 plus hours. it's that documentation, which nobody has ever had before, and he never would have given it, that ultimately sparked this and sent this into the investigation that's going to ultimately terminate the trump organization, donald, don jr., ivanka, eric, weisselberg, mcconney and the rest of them. this is going to put an end to the entire company. >> wow. strong words there from michael cohen, the ex-president's one-time lawyer, who witnessed the trump org's business dealings up close and personal from the inside for many years, predicting there last night how this will all end. that the 200-plus-page lawsuit

that wii continuing to unpack from new york attorney tish james against the ex-president, his company, will be the president's ultimate downfall. and this time, although he's already trying, donald trump can't get away with throwing other people, even if they're his own children, under the bus. joining our coverage, joining harry and i, david cay johnston, pulitzer prize winning author, he's wrote several books, his most recent, "the big cheat: how donald trump fleeced america and enriched himself and his family." i think from your appearances and the things you've written, i first understood that these were not flukes or bugs. this was the main feature of trump's time in private practice, in business, that it was all a head fake. it was all, you know, junk underneath and if you just scratch, there was really nothing of value. tell me what you make of the lawsuit yesterday. >> well, letitia james' staff

has done something very smart. the way they framed this lawsuit, they take away the defense donald has always used. i just said what the lawyers told me to say, i just did what the accountants or the appraisers said. and she shows in this that donald actively participated in the deceptions. best example is one of his buildings, his appraisers valued at $200 million. he put in his net worth statement it was wort over $500 million, but what's significant is, he said, that's what the appraisers told me. now, that's a clear badge of fraud. and all throughout this complaint, she shows clear badges of fraud, where trump cannot credibly argue if and when this goes to trial that, i was just doing what the professionals told me. >> and david, that is for a few reasons. i mean, one, the supreme court rules, and opened up the door to

some of the documents from the accounting firm, as i understand it. and the attorney general confirmed that she's talking to cushman, wakefield. they're in an investigation. and she's talking to deutsche bank. let me play that. >> she didn't have an opportunity to go through as you said -- >> did they just not check anything that people tell them or they presumed it was true or did they have hints that these things were not true, that they were being told? and what does it tell you about those institutions, that they would take his word for it? >> let me just say with respect to hasars. that does not absolve mr. trump of submitting accurate information. two, with respect to cushman wakefield, there is an ongoing investigation into cushman wakefield. and then lastly, with respect to deutsche bank, deutsche bank, we're in conversations with deutsche bank. they have been cooperating with our office. >> david, they did not certify

and they did not check. i'm not going to play it, because we've already seen him today, but donald trump lying in an interview last night, saying, you know, we have a disclaimer front that says, get your own people at your own risk. it sound like she has him dead to rights. >> she's got him nailed to the wall. fraud is always an everywhere crime. and it is not an excuse to say, oh, by the way, you can't trust anything i tell you in my financial statements. you have an obligation, when you take out loans, for example, or issue public debt, as donald has in the past, and when you have insurance, you have an obligation to be candid and forthright. and there can be differences about values in real estate. the real estate doesn't like the stock market where there's a price every second that you can check. but to value a building at or

apartments at 65 times what they're worth, to claim that your apartment is 30,000 square feet when it's 11 and to put a price per square foot on it that is six times the highest price ever paid per square foot for a trump tower apartment, that's not just a dispute. that is fraud. and there are badges of fraud through all of this. and what donald said last night to hannity, nicole, i think is very significant. he basically said, yeah, i lie and cheat and steal and if you can't figure that out when you do business with me, it's on you. that's not how the law works. >> i want to show you, harry, michael cohen speaking to what trump is talking about. that trump has papered over real estate. michael cohen sort of blows that out of the water, too. >> she didn't have an opportunity to go through, as you said, the labyrinth of

organizations. and so when they finally do and they realize the extent of the irs issues, the usage of these personal financial statements and so on, each one of those carries a responsibility. and in this case, a financial responsibility. and i believe it will be somewhere in the ballpark of about $750 million. >> harry, let me play you one more, specifically about what does and does not happen in real estate. >> it's not common. all right? it is not. i know many real estate developers with a lot of money, right? legitimate, a lot of money. not one of them values their apartments, which are newer, right, on higher floors, and certainly in better buildings with more amenities than his trump fifth avenue apartment. and not one of them is claiming that that unit is worth $375 million when, in fact, it's worth probably $50 million. >> harry, when you read the

depth and the extent of the fraud and the lies, that the apartment was three times the size it really was, the kind of things you could measure with a ruler, these are things you don't have to be really rich, you don't have to be in understand to understand our big, giant, fraudulent claims. how much trouble is trump in? >> a lot. so that's exactly right. it's his brazenness and greed that gets him here. he will defend or he'll try to say, well, inherently subjective to evaluate real estate. yeah, it is. but not 30,000 versus 10,000 feet. and evidence there is that he was the one who prescribed it. and there are other things like that. that's going to be the first. now, there may -- he will then say, i didn't really know about this stuff, and at least in many episodes, that's also -- there'll be specific witnesses that will put the light on. but a really important thing to remember, civil case, burden of proof, 51%. and he took the fifth again and again and again, which if they

go to trial, and i don't believe they can afford to, they will be put in front of the jury, which is likely to despise him. and they will likely just not believe anything he's saying. so this is really different from the criminal cases where would there be someone who could almost buy it? there are things that he can say, but given the enormity of the evaluation and the specific evidence that he's the one who calls the shots, starting with michael cohen, who first testified about the whole undervalue, overvalue scheme, i just don't think that it can fly. and if they challenge it or go to trial, they're taking what's already a life-threatening situation for the company into one that, you know, it could literally be in embers when all is said and done. >> david, something you know, i think, better than most of us, is how long this has been going on. this is a spy magazine cover

from 1991, an examination, an investigation into trump's fraudulent financial schemes. been going on for a long time. >> donald, his entire life, have been doing this. i have many times said that he is the third generation head of a four-generation white-collar crime family. and how he got a casino license, he's the only casino owner that we know of that actually cheated customers and lured 12, 13 and 14-year-old children and gave them liquor limousines and hotel rooms, because they had money to gamble. he's been doing this his entire life. now, harry is exactly right about, if they go to trial, because it would be very expensive for trump, and i don't know that he has the resources, but letitia james is seeking a death sentence for the trump organization. corporations are creatures of the state and they exist only so

long as they comply with the rules of the state. they're not natural persons. and already, the new york attorney general's office has shut down the fraudulent trump university and the self-dealing and fraudulent trump foundation. i don't think she'll have a difficult time persuading a judge, if it's a men's trial, or a jury, that the trump organization needs to be put out of business. >> wow. all right, you're both sticking around. when we come back, we're going to turn to the kids' defense. trump's grown children, descendants, are basically the company's management structure. we'll talk about that on the other side. talk about that on te other side

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so harry, in line with the last conversation we were having, trump's defense wasn't much of a defense. it has been mentioned of pathetic fund-raising e-mail. and then some of trump's allies trotted out a defense, leave the kids alone as though the government was, you know, wanting to examine their easy bake ovens, like they were 4 years old. these are adult children whose titles include executive vice president. that's donald trump jr. and executive vice president for eric trump, ivanka trump for her part is a former executive vice president. these are the kinds of titles that when a company is investigated and sued, people that have those titles who are part of the fraud always, always are held to account.

>> yeah. i mean not just titles, but actual responsibilities. the so this is one of the things that james has really added to the public record. people like david and michael cohen have given the general kind of parameters of the way they ran their business. but james has, you know, eric and ivanka -- by the way, took the 5th 500 times. so all those problems for him. ivanka has political ambitions. so that increases the pressure on her and donald jr. all have specific projects that trump parcels out to them to take responsibility for. it's laid out in real detail in the 200 page complaint. so it will be very hard to run away from. now normally in cases like this, there is a natural inclination for people to peel off against each other, say it was really this one or -- even the person above me. you know, that seems like quite a difficult dynamic if the trump

people will actually -- the family will actually be in some way split apart. but your basic point is accurate. they have not just the title but the responsibility and in the case of the fraud for the particular projects they were responsible for, the proof is very strong against them. >> david, you know the family as not just a one entity organization, the family. take me through how each of these three adult children with the title executive vice president are likely handling the news of the lawsuit? >> well, one of the concerns that certainly the two sons are going to have is whether dad will throw them under the bus if it becomes convenient to do so. donald has never had a problem pushing other people on to the sword to escape responsibility for what he's done. and if push comes to shove, i expect he will do exactly that.

so the two sons are not minor players here. they ran the business as donald said. they worked with him for years. this is a complete change from when they were teenagers and his mom divorced their mother and they denounced him. but with very high paying jobs, he drew them back. i don't think the two sons could go out in corporate america and get jobs with anywhere near the pay and methods that daddy has provided them with. >> david, what do you think the defense will be? do you think they point back to trump and others and say we didn't -- what are they going to -- what kind of defense will they mount? >> well, some lines in the lawsuit -- was that for me? >> yeah. some lines in the lawsuit are designed to show that eric in particular was actively involved

in these deceptions. and so they're going to have an equally tough time. i'll be surprised if this actually goes to trial. if trump agrees to close the trump organization, pay the discount of $250 million in penalties that are sought, then i think that's the more likely outcome in this because the factual case that attorney general james laid out is apparent that key insiders walked away with the civil vision. >> what you are looking for as the next move? the a.g. kept pointing to lots of things being up to the judge. what do you think happens next and how quickly does it happen? >> the next move, and the one after that, and the one after that will be some kind of crazy legal motions from the trump team. but at the endst day, i think david is right. it's very significant. questions like what happens to the trump kids?

i think they have to settle this case. i think there is no way, for example that, trump can testify and that he would have to. i think the proof is against him. at the end of the day, she is holding all the cards here. they tried to settle and she said no. i think she can exact a very, very high price for them to settle. i think it has to be, may not be for a year or two. we always like to delay. but when we're looking at trials, i see them waiving a white flag. >> wow. wow. with both of your expert vantage points, that's really powerful stuff. thank you och f so much for spending time with us today. up next, around here, after months of trying, the january 6th select committee will finally at long last sit down with one jimmy thomas, the wife of a supreme court justice to talk to her, just have a chat about all the work she did to try to overturn president joe biden's 2020 win. lots of news to get to after a

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vnchts. have a conversation with jeannie thomas. she didn't like the outcome. and so instead she tried to steal the election, overthrow the united states government, and then install a tyrant. that is bullying. that is being unwilling to accept an outcome because you

don't like the results. the united states of america lost legitimate my to joe biden. how did she respond? she said the bidens should face a military tribunal in guantanamo bay. on trumped up charges of sedition. you have to be kidding me. >> that sums it up. hi again, everyone. 5:00 in the east. we can say it again, right? you have to be kidding me? what else can you say about the jeannie thomas story snt wife of a sitting supreme court justice working overtime to try to overturn the results of a free and fair fraud free election. now finally it might be time for her to face music. the source close to the january 6th select committee confirming to nbc news the panel reached an agreement with thomas to be interviewed in the coming weeks. recall e-mails, records, and some old fashioned investigative reporting all combined to paint a picture of the conservative

activist who is involved in the fakt lektor's plan which happens to be under investigation by doj. some illegal scheme that is a primary focus of the select committee. earlier this month "the washington post" reported that ginni thomas sent embarrassments to arizona. and they asked her about this message sent to officials in wisconsin days after the 2020 race was called for president joe biden. "please stand strong in the face of media and political pressure. please reflect on the awesome authority granted to you by our constitution. and then -- and then please take action to ensure that a clean slate of electors is chosen for our state." thomas was also in direct communication with the ark architect with john eastman as she traded messages with mark meadows too pleading with him not to concede the 2020

election. stand strong. and even sharing conspiracy theories from two days after the election, "biden crime family and ballot fraud co-conspirators lekted officials bureaucrats, social media censorship, managers, fake stream media recorders are being arrested and detained for ballot fraud right now and overcoming days and will be living in barges off gitmo to face military tribunals for sedition." too much. in june ginni thomas' lawyer defended the words and text as chats with a friend. wow. insisting nothing was either unethical or illegal. but again, rather outrageously, she is the wife of a sitting supreme court justice. it is concerning enough including all the chief justice concern of the court. but her husband, clarence thomas

was the only person who dissented from the supreme court rule that donald trump could not withhold presidential records from the january 6th select committee. those records included mark meadows' texts. that's where we begin the hour. "new york times" congressional reporter is here with us at the table. jim walden, a former assistant attorney general for the eastern district of new york. rick stangle is back at the table, msnbc political analyst. luke, the select committee has momentum heading into a week that seems very likely to appear another -- to hold another public hearing. talk about the agreement with ginni thomas first and then what you expect from the committee next month. >> sure. this is a big breakthrough for the committee. i would say ginni thomas is a handful of out standing interviews that committee wanted to land before they finish their work. we know obviously as you said in

the intro, they're particularly interested in her interaction with john eastman. they think he's at the center of the fake electors plot. he was pressuring mike pence and influencing donald trump's thinking about efforts to overturn the election. they're interested about ginni thomas' conservative group, how often they were meeting with them and how often he was communicating with them and what types of things they were discussing. i think it's a big development for the committee and potential breakthrough. and depending on when she testifies, we could see some of the testimony released publicly at either this hearing, i'm not sure she'll be brought before there hearing but potentially a future hearing if one were to occur. >> luke, is the next public hearing confirmed and announced and publicly expected to be the 28th, next wednesday night? for next wednesday during the day? >> yes. 1:00 p.m. on wednesday. we're not exactly sure the topic

yet. we do know from chairman thompson that it will have new footage, never-before-seen footage of at tack on january 6th. and that it will have never before seen interviews from the depositions and that the committee has done. i believe before the original hearings. but now also some of the subsequent interviews that they've done since then. so we're not exactly sure what this hearing will be yet. they're playing it, again, close to the vest. but he said it's significant testimony. so, you know, i'm waiting like you guys. i want to see what they reveal. >> they do reveal things on their own time line. let's talk about ginni thomas. john eastman is under investigation. not just for his -- the fake elector's plot is the plot and he put it on paper. he seemingly acknowledged its illegality in conversations with lawyers that already testified. her work in crafting the

messages to get lawmakers to carry it out, to overturn the will of the voters in their states, is that something that could come under criminal scrutiny? >> i think it is under criminal scrutiny. my expectations when we see the interview is that it's going to be more of a wimper than a bang. you read some of her text messages and it seems like she is a cheer lead eastern can you imagine mark meadows rolling his eyes and saying crazy aunt ginni is e-mailing me again. the details she is aware of are right at the center of the critical steps if you believe the evident we've seen. and the evidence is suggestive. and a supreme court justice's wife is in the middle of that, has to get everyone to sit up and take notice. >> i want to pull that throughout a little further. she sent messages to lawmakers giving them instructions to overturn the slates and choose a clean slated electors for our

state. she did that in two states. if the other people would organize the slates have been subpoenaed, do you think she could face a subpoena? >> i think she will. it is hard to imagine that they're going to leave that stone unturned despite the fact she is married to clarence thomas. that is, as you said quite astutely that, is the center of at least one of the strands of the investigation and god knows there are several. they were filed and clearly forged. there was information that was false and she's literally directing traffic so to speak. of there is a fair -- there's a fair conclusion from at least the information that we know that she was almost like a traffic cop for the conspiracy. i'm not saying that clarence

thomas, you know, leaned over to his side of the bed and picked up his files and hit check, check, check. but it at least justifies an explanation that didn't happen. and the one i mentioned already. january 19th, 2022, the supreme court rejected trump's executive privilege claim of a white house documents. eight justices rejected the executive privilege claim from an expresident. you don't have to be an expert in anything anymore to know that only a current president has that privilege. thomas all by himself dissented. and obviously in turning over the documents, what the committee got their hands on in part was thousands of text messages from mark meadows that happened to include messages from clarence thomas' wife. february 22nd, the supreme court rejected a case by the pennsylvania republican party challenging all of the by mail rules.

thomas and alito dissented. they refused to hear the texas lawsuits and alito and thomas were the only two that felt the court should have taken up the case. what kind of stakes in terms of the reputation and integrity and perception of a court that dropped 20 points in the polling in terms of public trusting credibility, what is the writing on this? >> that's probably why. he should have recused himself. >> from all three. it does point to the fact that there is an ethics problem on the supreme court. the we had norms about supreme court justices supposed to declare conflict of interest. there is no law that says they have. to and it's been an exception. and a drag on the court. i have a slightly different take on ginni thomas which bothers me and disturbs me when i look at those e-mails. it's about a sickness in the heart of the republic. this is an educated woman, a woman who campaigned against

cults in the 70s and 80s that lives in the heart of washington, d.c., where she sees how the government works and, yet, she subscribes to the unsane theories, the guantanamo tribunal, the false currency, the idea that trump ballots were would thor mark bid a block chain so they could expose them. it's like how does that happen? how does that happen that someone comes to believe that? and if she believes it and educated woman in the heart of the capitol, folks all across the country are susceptible to this. this is the danger of conspiracy theories. the danger of disinformation. people are very susceptible to it and corrupting the foun dafgs the republic. >> luke, i thought about how crazy her communications that are in the public record are when i started to wonder how the committee will approach her. you think well they'll talk to her the way they talk too bill barr. maybe they talk to her like they did stephen airs that realized

it was all a lie. do you have any insight into what the approach will be? >> you know, i think it will depend on who's in the room. there are certain members of the committee that want to keep this hearing focused on john eastman and other bad actors and other people they believe did bad things and not so much ginni and have her a witness to tell them more about what she knows about the plot. i think there are others that want to scrutinize her actions intensely and how she was, you know, not only interacts with eastman meadows and this broad cam pawn to influence the election at the state level. you talked about multiple state officials. she is part of a mass e-mailing campaign to different state legislators. and how that all came about. because as you know, the effort to overturn the election involved key players but also involved hundreds of people. and so she can shine light on

sort of the sprawling nature of how widespread this episode to overturn the election was. >> some of the text messages we know she sent came from the documents that were produced by mark meadows. and they include these messages from ginni thomas to trump chief of staff to mark meadows on november 10th, 2020. help this president stand firm, mark. you are the leader with him who is standing for america's constitutional governance. the majority knows you biden and the left is attempting the greatest heist of our history. all caps like a movie title. let me read one more. sounds like sidney on the first name basis with sidney powell and her team are getting inundated with evidence of fraud. make a plan. release it and save us from the left taking america down.

so again, we have -- and i have this own sort of wrestling with myself about playing any of trump. i feel the same way reading this. the point is what she put into emotion. by sending an e-mail and by turning the white house chief of staff to side with sidney powell and by the way, no evidence was ever marshalled. the sid never found any evidence of anything. that's why rudy giuliani lost 60 cases. win the 0 for 60 in court. so it's to rick's point, disinformation. about tout this bigger question of what influence did she have. do you think we'll get to the bottom of that? >> i think that's one of the reasons that they want to talk to her. the access she had was really astounding which cynical people outside the beltway probably want to think that this stuff doesn't happen. and so this is a real look into something ugly. but to luke's point, i think that they're going to go lighter. i think they're going to go narrower and focus on the point

you made which is the point which is was she really a conduit for pressure to try to get the clean electors, the fake electors certified in states. if they go beyond that to these more conspiracy cheerleading e-mails, i think they're making a mistake. because that will just, first of all, she'll go right to the press. secondly, that will politicize more than we need at this point. we need less politics and more actual investigation. >> and she's a true believer. that's why i wouldn't want to ask her those questions. that's why she wants to testify. she believes she's telling the truth. truth with a capital t to the committee. that's the problem. >> luke, i'm guessing that of the committee does, as you say, keep all thighs -- these things close. i believe this will be a taped deposition? >> videotaped, yes. they've been insisting on

videotaped depositions for months. and some of the early interviews were audio only or not recorded. pretty early on, they realized that was a mistake and started video record everything. for a couple reasons. it provides the ultimate documentation of this person actually said this with her own words and here's the video of it. but, two, it can be used in the public hearings. as we know, the public hearings are very, very important. if you need any examples of how congressional hearing can be used by investigators outside of congress, look no further than michael cohen. we saw how that was used in the case up in new york. so as the presenting this stuff publicly, they are hoping other people with more power who aren't just legislators will pick up the ball and run with it. >> i want to play one more piece

of sound to show something we may never get the answer to. but donald trump was obsessed with getting his effort -- his coup in front of the supreme court. he's tweeting about it. the he wanted that lawsuit to go. the one that someone voted against. here is greg jacob talking about how a live conversations were about what would happen in the supreme court to the 1/6 committee. >> we had an extended discussion an hour and a half to two hours on january 5th. and when i pressed him on the point, i said, john, if the vice president does what you're asking him to do, we would lose 9-0 in the supreme court, wouldn't we? and he initially started, well, i think maybe you would lose only 7-2. and after some further discussion, acknowledged, well, yeah, you're right. we would lose 9-0. >> do you think they knew the answer? >> i think you answered that question earlier when talking about that crazy case.

alito and thomas. you know, they are on a mission. en that mission is to pull the entire country to the right and nothing is going to stop them. people see this and know ain't no way around it. >> it's shocking. i wish i could get to the day where i'm no longer shocked. the fact you say that two supreme court justices is unbelievable. you're about to get busier than you have been. we can't wait to see all your hearing as you get into the hearing. thank you so much for being here. rick is stuck in that chair for the whole hour. when we come back, the on going threat of election deniers and insurrectionists on the new ballot. they underscore the dangers by the republican nominee for governor in the key battleground state of pennsylvania. he played a role on january 6th and has been accused of having ties to anti-semitic groups. a staggering number of

republicans across the country want to declare america a "christian nation." we'll play that tough new ad on the other side of a break. also ahead, why experts are saying that growing number of anti-war protests in the streets of russia is a flashing red warning sign. the kremlin is in crisis. what it could mean for the war in ukraine. then the white house continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere continues after a quick break. don't go anywher ♪ ♪

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. as republican candidates become comfortable about their support and enthusiasm for

christian nationalism, a new ad by the lincoln project calls out one of the most extreme republican candidates for governor. pennsylvania candidate. the new ad highlights his alleged ties to christian nationalist who's celebrated anti-semitic violence. watch. >> pennsylvania jewish community faces a rising tide of anti-semitism. a gunman took 11 jewish lives. the gunman was radical joyed on a social media site where nazis, anti-semites and racists spread hate and terror jews. so what did doug matriano do? he bought gag ads and he knows what he is paying for. knows exactly what gab's audience is.

they're not just nazis and crazies, they're his base. >> wow. he responded to the reporting about his alleged ties to anti-semitic groups by tweeting i reject anti-semitism in any form. the new ad comes on the hills of new polling that find 61% of republicans support declaring the united states a christian nation. joining rick and i at the table is rick wilson, former republican strategist, co-founder of the lincoln project. also joining us, democratic strategist, asia mills. it's tragic that an ad like this can be made. tragic that the material exists to make it. but it is the state of the republican party not just in pennsylvania. but all across the country. >> indeed, it is. and it's so sad. the i hope that people of pennsylvania are watching. the truth is what will set us all free. i listen to his rebuttal.

it us from straits me when people claim i'm not racist or anti-semitic, i'm not sexist, but if you look at the record of who they hang out with, who they pay for advice, who their friends are, their friends are bigots, anti-semitic or racist or homophobes. we're in taping point in our society that people believe in the hateful values feel like they have been resurrected. they can now be a part of the mainstream discourse. i do believe that they are the minority of the population. there is a choice among the american public whether that's okay. whether it's okay to mainstream hanging out with really bad actors who condone the violence that the tree of life synagogue faced in the 11 people who parished there. folk that's celebrate that behavior. should we be condoning that in public life or not? whether you claim you're

anti-semitic or not, candidate, you're hanging out with people who are. i love this commercial. high pressure the people are watching. >> rick, the ad, again, for me it's so sad that can be made. we can make an hour on that content. rising tide of anti-semitism. in pennsylvania in particular which is deeply horrifying because it's one of the states that even before we were a nation that was founded on religious tolerance. the founding fathers. now they're saying they want a christian nation. they're completely diverging what the founders intended. and this ad, again, it wasn't -- it sadly was not hard to make. the great coyote voice, we were talking to him about it. he had just done the ken burns documentary as well. so it just was so painful and

the people that suffered from this don't they realize they're in bed with the people that caused it. they're paying him money. and not every supporter, not every pennsylvania ven a nazi. but all that nazis in pennsylvania are supporting doug mastriano? >> what do you do about this? >> it's like the last segment. the power of these conspiracy theories to influence even educated people. i mean, anti-semitism has been a virus that's been around for is,000 years. -- 1,000 years. the thing that bothers me about right christian nationalism which they're proud to call themselves, is i mean, this country was founded on the establishment clause, the first amendment clause. make no law respecting an establishment religion. that was a radical notion in the 18th century. who was it made by? white christian men rebelling against and establishing

religion trying to get with the church of england. this is going back and back and it's a terrible thing for our country when we should be modernizing and being more progressive and accepting the diversity of the country. >> i'm going to go on a limb here and guess that marjorie taylor green doesn't know that. but let me show you how prevalent this is. this is not just on the web sites. this is what elected republicans say out loud. this is margie taylor green. >> we need to be the party of nationalism. i'm a christian and say it proudly. we should be christian nationalists. >> so much for this separation of church and state. >> the church is supposed to direct the government. the government is not supposed to direct the church. >> she wants to go to iran, she can. because that's iran. that's iran. she's describing iran. and it makes me sweat.

>> they decided there is a little cultural bubble that is separate from america. all the values and foundings of the country. >> no, they didn't. tucker karlsson who knows better has spoon fed bs to the dumbest elements on the right for so many years. that's how you end up with those people representing other people. those are -- taxpayers pay their salary. >> i wouldn't let them represent a waffle house. these are not smart people. but they're persuasive in the group that they -- the folks that tucker spoon feeds, the sewage pipe he feeds them from, they love it. they think it's chocolate pudding. and they have now decided they're going to separate their culture from the rest of america. it's dangerous to this country. politically and culturally. calls into question our vifral. of what is the umbrella under which everyone who doesn't see the country that way can sort of

stand under. the democrats have this opportunity, i guess. and this is tragic ignorance. to put the rest of us under a big umbrella. what does that look like? >> they've been trying to do this since the modern civil rights era having a big tent where everybody who believes in a fair and just and equitable and inclus you have country can come together. we saw that en masse with the obama movement. like to call it. i want to back to something you said. how did we get here? how does this happen where marjorie taylor green spew this is nonsense. it's a lack of education. we can see a direct high to the defunding ultimately and deprioritizing of history lessons. a complete and total witchunt.

and average conservatives now determining what they do in schools. they're just not basic lessons. anyone that studies history would know that many of the founding fathers including washington and jefferson and madison all practice something called deism. they were not christians. they believed very much in the fundamental ideas of logic and thinking about developing society based on, you know, thoughtful discourse as opposed to dogma. and so you end up with these fans who run around and hold off and say, all right, leading republican party who don't even understand the founding of the country and what they believed. and i am always going to be an opponent for funding education. we can see how the issues tie together. so when voters, when democrats talk to voters, education absolutely needs to be a conversation not just around this critical race theory idea but because you have ignorance that will prevail and take ahold

of this country. if we don't put people in place who actually just understand the intention of the founding fathers and our society and want to make that constitution better. >> such an important point. it is a toxic, still, right, the ignorance that prejudice. no one is going anywhere. another area where republicans are out of step with the rest of the country is, of course, reproductive rights. access to health care. today one state stripped abortion bands put on place where that fight goes from here after a quick break. don't go anywhere. oes from here after a quick break. don't go anywhere.

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breaking news. a judge nind ind blocked that state's near total ban on abortion. indiana was the first state to pass new abortion restrictions after the supreme court overturned roe versus wade earlier this year. it comes as they face an internal crisis over the highly unpopular views on abortion. 61% of all voters believe that abortion should be legal. new polling shows this could be a big problem for them. the upcoming midterm elections. only 25% of all voters favor republican positions on the issue of abortion rights. we're back with everyone. i have these numbers committed to memory. people talk about the political gravity or the political fallout. it is all available before. 60% said that stands for it to stay in place and they accept

exceptions for cases of rape and incest. 90% of all americans support exceptions in the case of a life of the mother. the republicans are going the opposite direction from that. and 60% of all bands in the states. what do you make of how powerful this will be before voters in november? >> so i remembering the supreme court fights. when the senate was attempting to put amy coney barrett and, of course, bret kavanaugh on the supreme court. those were trump picks, of course. and the conversation around abortion was really the big opposition from liberals who said, no, no, no. the they're going to be horrible. they're going to overturn roe versus wade. and the republicans, the ones being polled now that you're citing shrugged shoulders. it didn't feel like that is something that actually could happen. that we would really see come

down the pike. here we are, it is now real. we're going to see some movement in the midterms where moderates have been voting republican will come over to the democratic side. this is not a hypothetical call conversation any more. in june the supreme court showed us that they meant what they said, some of the justice that's just got put on to the bench. i think this is good news for the democrats across the board. >> the tragedy is the political fallout doesn't help women that don't have access to health care right now. i want to ask you about the group of voters. now what we have to accept is truth is that either she liked us or brett kavanaugh liked her. i'll let everyone flip a coin. but then here we are. best piece of evidence we have how those voters, republicans

far more conservative than susan collins reject the current position. i hope this is a political tsunami for republicans. >> i suspect a dog pop the car. two presidents got where america's head was on abortion. george h.w. bush said we'll always have exception for rape, incest, life of the mother. and bill clinton said wants abortion to be safe, legal, and rare. that is sort of where americans are across the party lines. nobody is out cheerleading abortion. it's not fun or exciting. nobody loves the fact it's there. they don't want someone to be denied income a child is ten years old and raped, it's outrageous, insane. and they're going to pay a political price for this. we've seen a lot of movement and voter registration, women registered to vote at number way out the normal predicted numbers. i suggestion inspect that we're going to see even more impact of this. if not a political tsunami, it's

going to be a political -- it's going to be a political smart bam in a numbers of where they thought they could play the game and say it will never happen. >> you are spending lincoln project money on the issue? >> we're talking about it. we communicated with what we call the bannon line voters. they can move 3% to 8% of the republican voters, he couldn't -- trump couldn't win. so we will be talking -- those voters are affluent. they tend to be women and suburban. those are the same women that are telling us in kansas and elsewhere there is a key issue for them. it will will move in a lot of the key races. >> we're talking about ginni thomas and the crisis in terms of credibility of the u.s. supreme court. it's a graver crisis than the ginni thomas problem. >> yeah, the old saying that the supreme court justices read the newspapers too. well, apparently they don't. but because they're ideological,

they lied about roe being a precedent. yes, it's precedent but a precedent they wouldn't observe. but going back to that same framer discussion, what they have done is they've thrown it back to the states. the states are the laboratory of change. women all across blue states even in red states are opposed to what has happened have to go out and campaign, have to go out there and vote. the states, it could change there. the only alternative to go out and campaign and vote. otherwise that, could possibly happen. >> unbelievable. thank you so much for spending time with us today. still ahead for us, things are going from bad to worse for putin. anti-war protests are spreading in russia after the kremlin's call-up of 300,000 troops. putin facing criticism at home and abroad. we'll talk about what it all means to the war in ukraine

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a day of reckonning for putin after he announced the call-up of 300,000 military reservists amid faltering efforts in the war in ukraine. protests broke out in several cities around the country as russians voice their discontent with putin's announcement which stopped just short of instituting a full military draft. accord together russian human

rights group ovd information, they made more than 1300 arrests. the some russians even tried to flee the country with one way flights out of russia quickly selling out. over fears the country's borders could be closed. the last few days rash efforts from putin show a leader in crisis for the first time in his career. they write this, now that ukraine has successfully recaptured thousands of square miles of russian held territory, the sham reverenda are rushed. the nuclear language is being repeated, and the mobilization expanded. these are not the actions of the secure leader assured that his legitimacy and the outcome of this war. we're back with rick stangle. do you accept this narrative that he's now most dangerous? i think the ukrainians have had to live with his legal war, who died saving and succeeding him protecting their country would say he's been dangerous all along. >> i would agree with. that his back is against the

wall. it sort of a cliche that would make him dangerous. and what he has set up as ann writes about in that piece, the sham reverenda is this idea that they'll have a referendum to say we're part of russia. and russian doctrine says if russia comes under attack, this area that is now really going to be russia, we're allowed to use nuclear arms. that's the point, the escalation dominance that he's doing. but i mean, moon, the last thing he wanted to do is have this mobilization. he wanted to have a war that had no effect on the public that mothers didn't really know about. you know, the protests that these people and moscow and elsewhere. these are incredibly brave people. it's not a no risk protest. you know, the risk is getting arrested, beaten and ostracized and losing jobs. the but their lives are on the line. so it's a bad scenario for him. when ukrainian missiles went

into crimea, he didn't start talking about nuclear weapons. i don't think he'll go to that 11th degree. but he is dangerous. >> what about these images feels different to you? >> well, you know this he don't feel different. they feel like what happened in 2014. the protest that's he planned on. you know, hillary clinton, there are wide national froests in russia. hundreds of russian boys and girls coming home in body bags. >> you have afghanistan. i think maybe the combination will be a tipping point. and you do hear rumors about within the kremlin itself. people have reservations about the war and putin who believe that putin's help sj not good. this could be wishful thinking. >> they're not that into him

this week. do you think that helps his detractors inside? >> 100%. there is the autocrats club. the three of them are members of it. to be a member of the autocrats club, you have to be about political xpeed yens. when you see a it. you have to be abt political expedience. when you see a member that's failing you don't want to be on their side. it's an embarrassing thing to have erdogan and xi criticize the war publicly. it's another thing chipping away at his power and dominance. >> zelenskyy's speech seemed to have hit on all the notes that brought him to this point of succeeding on the battlefield and succeeding in martialing the world's democracies. what do you think's next for him? >> i think he's just been spectacular. he's been the -- and i think they have to keep doing what they have been doing. we have to keep supplying them with arms but they have to keep taking risks.

remember, these 300,000 young men russia is sending have no experience whatsoever. ukraine are experienced and they're rocking. it's a dangerous situation, but zelenskyy is going from strength to strength. >> thank you for spending the whole hour with us. a quick break for us. we will be right back. (motor starting) the most fun we have on the gator is just ripping around the property. it's a springtime tradition. yeah, who needs tv when you have... ...decoys and the dogs. there are millions of ways to make the most of your land. learn more at deere.com. if you have age-related macular degeneration, there's only so much time before toit can lead to blindness.nd. but the areds 2 clinical study showed that a specific nutrient formula can help reduce the risk of dry amd progression. ask your doctor now about an areds 2 supplement. your mission: stand up to moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis or active psoriatic arthritis and... take. it. on. with rinvoq. rinvoq is a once-daily pill

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much time with you the day the book came out, but i did go to bed mad at myself that i forgot to have you tell us the story of drunk rudy. >> it was a dinner situation. there were several people at the dinner. high-ranking people from the client. and rudy shows up, you know, and at first he's very charming and, you know, it was a cocktail hour. he was having a couple glasses of wine. and then we sat down for dinner, and, you know, he continued to drink. and he didn't look inebriated. he wasn't slurring. but at a certain point of the evening, he just became completely unhinged. >> it's so hard to imagine that, right? rudy unhinged. that drunk rudy story is just one of the story wes cover in part two of my conversation with jeffrey berman, the former u.s.

attorney for the southern district of new york. our conversation for his book "holding the line", everything from a feel good story about recoverying a priceless renoir to the creepy stuff they found in jeffrey epstein's mansion when they searched it and what berman himself conclude about epstein's suicide after studying the surveillance tape. all that and more, it's streaming on peacock. check it out. we will be right back. we will b. y for what you need... and a blowtorch. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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rice now. hi, ari. >> nice to see you. welcome to "the beat." i'm ari melber. we begin with several legal crises coming together for donald trump right now. it's been a week of setbacks for the former president. the big one is the new york attorney general taking him to court, demanding sanctions, $250 million specifically, in penalties. attorney general james saying that the trump family and organization have committed massive and repeat fraud. we're going to walk through this. you may have heard the news yesterday, and a lot of it focused on the law, her powers, what she's doing. there hasn't been as much time the make sense of the evidence in her 220-page filing. just briefly to start the broadcast i want to do that with you. look at mar-a-lago, which of course is in the nexus of multiple legal issues, and we'll get to those tonight. but in the new york case, which deals with donald trump's fraud in more than one place, mar-a-lago down in florida has an actua