spent years inside the trump organization, as the personal attorney and fixer. cohen was specifically credited by the -- aren't estimation and he has gotten a lot to say. he joins me in just a few moments, another hour of velshi begins right now. >> good morning, it's saturday september 24th. 9 am in the, east examine the west. i'm ali velshi. right, now most people know that you cannot take anything that comes out of donald trump's mouth at face value. he talks a lot. but add superfluous superlatives to everything he says about his businesses, in the past he has boasted about having the best words about making the most perfect phone calls, about being the richest, most successful, and he alone was capable of fixing the biggest problems. that has gotten far in life, but now the twice impeached insurrectionist ex president is

facing multiple ongoing investigations, in multiple jurisdictions about a multitude of alleged wrongdoings. and, the picture emerging out of those many other investigations is that of someone who inflates the true value of his wealth, his power, even the square footage of his properties. in order to inflate his own ego. at the expense of banks, the government, and the american people. the shull as we unravel trump's big lie, or the coup, the committee will hold its next one final public hearing -- final in the air. they have also announced it will interview ginni thomas, the wife of the supreme court justice clarence thomas implicated in the effort to overturn the results of the 2020 presidential election, and although trump has continued to spread debunked claims of election fraud or the january 6th insurrection, the new york times is reporting that his lawyers are working behind the scenes, to limit the scope of a federal grand jury probe, as

well as to limit what the former aides can testify to. meanwhile, in another case, the circuit court of appeals's ruling in favor of the department of justice, allowing federal agents to resume this criminal investigation of donald trump's handling of highly classified government records proceeding from mar-a-lago. the court appeals, this is important, comprised of two trump appointees and one obama appointee. they unanimously and unequivocal-y rejected donald trump's arguments, writing that he, quote, has not even attempted to show that he has a need to know the information contained in the classified documents, and quote. now in case you missed this part, trump has claimed that he, quote, declassified everything. those are his words. but there is an actual process for doing that. the special master, assigned to oversee the records, found in mar-a-lago. a judge named raymond dearie. wants evidence to back up the

claim. trump's lawyers, however, punted. -- >> all right, we have a technical error here. which makes me sad because that was one that you really need to hear. so i want to be able to read you what donald trump said. sean hannity, it was on with sean hannity, and he said, isn't there process to declassify? and trump says, there doesn't have to be a process. as i understand it, there is different things that people say. but as i understand, it that doesn't have to be. you're the president of the united states, you can declassify just by saying it's declassified. even by thinking about it, because you are sending it to mar-a-lago, because wherever you're sending, it doesn't have to have a process. and quote. that is what the president of the united states said to sean hannity you can declassify even by thinking about it. which is kind of how i think about losing weight.

but it doesn't work that way. judge raymond dearie, the special master, safe to say is skeptical of trump's claims. including these dubious allegations that the fbi planted evidence during his search of mar-a-lago. they want trump and his team to also provide evidence to back this claim up by next friday. i've, for one, will not be holding my breath, or thinking about losing weight. but the biggest development actually came out of new york. the states attorney general, and the three children, don junior, eric, and ivanka, had three years of election fraud. attorney james says it took place in grossly inflating the assets by billions of dollars, in order to obtain more favorable loans for themselves and for the trump organization. and that their whole net worth is quote rooted in incredible fraud and illegality. and. quote this lawsuit could be ruinous for the trump family and their business. the attorney general letitia james is seeking to recover 200

and $50 million from them on behalf of the people of new york, whom she says were defrauded, as well as to provide -- prevent them from acquiring real estate for five years in new york, and from serving as officers or directors of any company in the state for good. potentially more importantly, i'm gonna ask michael cohen about this in a second, the attorney general has also said criminal referrals to the irs and to federal prosecutors in the southern district of new york, which could mean even more investigations, and greater consequences for trump. boy, the walls are closing in on this guy. joining me now, as you can see, michael cohen. the former personal attorney and fixer for trump. he is the host of mea culpa podcast, which i've appeared on several times. author of the upcoming, books revenge, how donald trump weaponize the department of justice against his critics. he is also credited, by the way, by new york attorney general letitia james this week, for helping her investigation into

the trump organizations fraudulent business practices. no better per -- person to talk to about. this nice to see you. >> good to see you. >> i just had a whole lot of, things what stands out to you? most >> there are so many investigations, and you wouldn't believe. if this was a television, show you would turn around and say, those -- >> you would say this is too complicated -- >> it's stupid! i can't watch this, it's stupid, it can never happen. but it is happening, in real time in our lives. our democracy is in peril because of one man. one man who goes ahead and weaponizes the a united states department, against its credits. against its country. anybody who was not one of his supporters, he is willing to go after. he does not care if he burns the country down while doing it. >> what turned you? i mean, when did you -- ended the penny drop for you? because you were in his corner for a while, not only in his

corner, but a very key one. >> i was at the top of the food game. what changed my mind was when i saw him on tv, sitting at the table, right after being at the hotel i was staying. it and for folks who want to turn around and say that i was on the lamb, two blocks from my primary residence, we had a flood from our neighbor upstairs. so we moved into the hotel. what ended up happening there, if they said to him, can you come the in -- can you comment about the rain. i can't believe, it's disgusting, what they did about my lawyers. >> and i shook my head and said one of my lawyers? you mean the guy you call every morning at 4:30 am and then 11:30 at night before you put your head down? one of your lawyers? that is when i knew, is it -- let me tell you, this donald trump the is not the brightest, you know, not the brightest guy you ever meet. they say not the sharpest tool in the shed. what ends up happening is the last guy in donald trump's ear owns the brand. and everybody who is in his

circle wants to be that last guy. they want to control donald, obviously for their own personal benefit. so what happens with donald, someone must have, you know, put into his ear, let michael be the fall guy. throw him under the bus. he loves, you he will do whatever is needed to protect you, as he has done over the past decade or so. and for me, no, for me, it was more about making amends for what i had done but specifically for my wife, my daughter, and son, and i was not going to be the villain of donald story. so >> when you get these things that laetitia james says, based on some of the evidence you provided, the reportings of inflating properties to get a better loan, devaluing, donald trump said this the other day. he, said i didn't overvalue my properties i undervalued them. that's part of the allegations. because he undervalued them for

the purpose of taxes. is there anything that has come out here that you have not seen before? or does this all seem obvious to you? >> i did read the 200-page indictment on this. the vast majority of those, maybe 197, or one 98, i had provided information in testimony on early, early on. the district attorney's office came to visit me three times. while i was an inmate at otisville. so for me, it was hurt, providing meet with the credit for beginning the investigation it's extremely meaningful. and i'm thankful for doing it, because as i'm on this so-called redemption tour, so to speak, my goal is not just to clear my name. because as you will see in this upcoming revenge, i spell out this whole thing. i did not commit tax evasion. it was a lie. it was rammed down my throat by prosecutors within 48 hours,

where they were going to indict my wife. 25, now 28 years i'm not letting anything happen to her. so i turned around, i read the allocution that they wrote for me and i followed the script that they wanted. never believing judge polley was going to give me 36 months. i never believed. it because i never committed tax evasion. what i did do? stormy daniels. that i did do. and i acknowledge it, and i take responsibility for it. karen mcdougal, that was david pecker at the national inquiry. i lay out how one man weaponize the justice department and, it's not my statements in the, book it statements from judgments and prosecutors and lawyers and journalists you name it. with documents, you understand this. documentary evidence doesn't lie. barbara mcquade was on the show earlier. i hundred percent agree with her. documents or what is going to put donald in the worst situation that he's been in.

and that is criminal liability. what >> is the worst situation he's been? and is it that laetitia james is cleaning claiming a lot of money? you think it's gonna be more than the two 5000 dollars. who defrauded people of new york. is it the referral to the irs? or is it the referral to the southern district of new york? >> it's both. and let's see if the southern district of new york picks up the case. let's not forget, they had a dozen sealed indictments, based on my statement for the benefit of individual number one, who we all know is donald j trump. so, they ended up getting rid of those silver linings. we don't have a strong enough case. let's see if the southern district of new york, who is no longer under his control, will pick up the mantle. irs, it is an open and shut case. numbers don't lie, people do. and donald is one of the biggest liars that you'll ever make or meet. so, in the indictment i say, this letitia james writes, the

baseline is 250 million. she is not going below that. the amount is substantially greater, and again, i said on many many shows i believe that number to be somewhere between 7:50 and one billion dollars. that will wipe him out. he doesn't have cash. thank >> doesn't make it worse? because then he's got a run for president? >> no. he's not running for president. we've had this conversation on my podcast. i've been on every show. he's not gonna run. that would stop him from being able to take the money that he is taking from these unwitting supporters that just keep funding him to the hundreds of millions of dollars. >> he makes a lot of money off of that. michael, good to see you my friend, very honest and forthcoming conversation with. you michael cohen is the author of the upcoming book, revenge, how donald trump weaponize the department of justice against his critics. also the author of disloyal, a more of a personal attorney for president donald j trump.

still, another edition of the velshi banned book club, we are taking a look at the alarming movement to remove these books from bookshelves and libraries as a whole. we have just the right guest to do. it suzanne also is the ceo of pan america, nonprofit dedicated to the freedom to read and to write. plus, a gutting report from the special united nations commission, makes it clear just how barbaric the war in ukraine truly is. we are heading to ukraine in just a few moments. right after the break, anti government protesters in iran continue over the death of a 22 year old woman, after she was held in custody, of one of the country's notorious morality police. you are watching velshi. you are watching velshi. do you want some more? wait till you see me on the downhill. see you at home. enjoy it. with the advanced safety features of a lexus es. with downy infusions, let the scent set the mood. ♪

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the powerful images pouring out of iran, showing women defiantly burning their head scarves, cutting their hair, following the death of 22 year old mahsa amini who died in the

hospital after being arrested by iran's so-called morality police. for allegedly violating the countries strictly of enforced dress code for women. for iran, the acts of rebellion for women in particular have rocked the establishment. women are technically legally forbidden from appearing in public without head covering, it's a criminal offense in iran. leadership has responded to the protest with force. according to amnesty international hundreds arrested, and iran's state media says 35 people killed so far. according to the firm, net blocks, which tracks internet disruptions across -- across the globe, yesterday evening, internet users we're coming back online after days of cell network disruptions. but, instagram, what's, up and linkedin, are all we -- restricted nationally. only content created within the country can be seen. witnesses say they saw -- leaving the country in tehran, where she was arrested. edited cctv footage released by

iranian authorities, take a look there in the red circle, shows her entering a reeducation center for women who violate the law. then another angle, shows her grabbing her head, and eventually, collapsing. videos later show her being taken away. there we can see herd being -- collapsing. she was last seen fighting the 16th, after being in a coma for three days. iran's state media say she died from a pre-existing condition, and had a heart attack. but her family disputes this. in an interview with the bbc, they say that she had no previous health issues. witnesses told them that she had been beaten by the police. police have rejected that allegation. photos of an intubated mahsa amini lie lying -- in the hospital, on social, media parking -- sparking public outrage and a cover-up. among protesters. the face of mahsa amini becomes the symbol for anti government protests, after three years of one of iran's bloodiest protests of the revolution in

1970 years. met with amini's family, and an investigation. has not appeared to stop the outpouring. her death has ignited a power keg, economic sanctions, widespread unemployment, surging inflation, topping 50%. according to the associated press, protesters in iran and other cities torched police stations and vehicles, and confronted security forces. protesters are especially strong in her hometown, in northwestern kurdish region. she was of kurdish dissent. kurds are an ethnic community where they are marked with as >> -- a stateless population. the current straddle the borders of armenia,, iran, iraq, syria and turkey. tehran and its neighbors have long feared succession, with members treating a perpetual fifth column. joining me to discuss the implications of the death, she

is an iranian american journalist. host of the iranian -- the podcast. thanks for being with us. >> thanks. >> there's a lot for the story. i've tried toledo. it's a context. the thing that stands out to me the most is it is a very very high bar for iranians to join this protest. because it is prescribed. it is not allowed in iran, typically, the idea that it has gotten as big as it has is something we have not seen since 2009. >> that is true, ali, women and men are essentially risking their lives by staying on the streets in this amount of protests that we have seen. dozens of cities across iran, large cities, smaller towns than you said in this area where the regime was from leniency protests. this is layers of anger. outpouring of anger that has been building up over the years. at the system, but also

specifically, at this morality police. to the point that, the kind of violence that people, have time and again, seeing morality police, have eventually turned into more violence. regardless of the exact circumstances, there is an investigation going on, we ask for medical evidence from the state. but she died in custody. she died in police custody. and that is what matters. she was arrested, she was detained, she was taken to the station, because of the way that she was dressed. and now you have religious iranians asking, what exactly was wrong with the way mahsa amini was dressed? she looked like a normal woman, dressed very normally. a 22-year-old who was visiting tehran. and a lot of women are saying, this could've been us. they see themselves in mahsa amini, men see their own sisters in mahsa amini, and they are saying that this could've happened to any of us. that is why you see this level of anger, and bravery, and courage. >> what is your sense of where this goes? because iran does not enjoy these kinds of protests.

and they don't have them all that often. so what happens? do the protests in your opinion grow or does the government have a crack down? >> so far, the anger has been so massive that protests were growing despite a crackdown. we have seen violent crackdowns, protests being killed, security forces are using a lot of violence. back in 2019, the previous round of mass protests, there was a state session, hundreds of protesters killed on the street. thousands arrested. large sentences. and that was back in 2000, nine largest since the 1979 revolution, a lot of violence used by the state to crack down and repress protesters. and essentially, they called, to wrap it up. so they have this ability, they have been willing to use force, violently using force in the past. we see it disruption of access to social media, these are all

-- recipes for the kind of violence that the city is using. and also we have to talk about why people are taking to the streets. because they see no other avenue for real change. this is the only way that they find after years and years of protesting and opposing the morality police. and also this mandatory hijab law as well as systemic oppression, political corruption, these are economic grievances, social grievances, political grievances that have high consequences. >> just let our viewers know about the morality police. they're often in public places, outside the subway, or public squares. showing up at the airport. they struck me as scolded people who would go up to you and tell you to put your head scarf, have it cover your hair, because a lot of people sort of wear it a little more loosely in iran, more like a blue scarf. i didn't know they get into the builds-ness of people ending up dead in their custody. >> i lived in iran, i also has

to do this as a young woman. deal with the morality police. it is essentially, or the guidance from -- police, as they call. it they are tasked with guiding the women and men, on how to dress, how to behave appropriately, but when women resist this guidance they are unwilling to receive the guidance from police, so these morality police are part of the bigger police force. they have the same authority, they arrest, they detained, and there's image after image, videos taken, or voters take, and using violence. throwing people when they're arresting, pulling people, throwing them in police cars. and that is where things heat up. regardless of what happened this time, people have seen their violence time and time again. and that is why they are angry, that is why they don't trust what they're putting in front of them. it's essentially a form of public harassment. and now you ask them to visit iranians, and scholars speaking up against. this is this immoral, and it's not in line with religion, to

use legal force, to impose what they consider a virtue on women. >> thank you for your great reporting on this, we appreciate it. the government is a longtime journalist and -- host of this podcast. a special edition of the banned book club, in honor of banned book week, which is right now, we take a hard look at the y. why are so many people trying to bend so many books? here is what out of darkness author, ashley ho perez, featured on the velshi banned book club. thank you. >> the fact that people get worked up about what young people are reading has to deal with fear and control. no one in these school board meetings is talking about the cell phones that are in their kids pockets, right? they have immediate access to so much content. and what i think is important about literature and has been in the case of all the books you mentioned and many other works of literature, is the opportunities it creates for young people. so, rather than focusing on

objections parents have, schools can focus on how they are supporting parents, teachers, librarians, students, and having difficult conversations that they really need to have. need to have ♪ well, the stock is bubbling in the pot ♪ ♪ just till they taste what we've got ♪ [ tires squeal, crash ] when owning a small business gets real, progressive gets you right back to living the dream. now, where were we? [ cheering ] new salonpas lidocaine flex. a super thin, flexible patch with maximum otc strength lidocaine that contours to the body to relieve pain right where it hurts. and did we mention, it really, really sticks? salonpas, it's good medicine. ♪ hisamitsu ♪ any questions, chris? all good, thanks maura! there you go, one new inhaler! nice

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to attract and trap flying insects. they work continuously so you don't have to. zevo. people-friendly. bug-deadly. it is day 213 of russia's brutal and barbaric war in ukraine. if you need more proof of just how brutal and barbaric, take a look at this morning's front page headline on nbc news.com. russian troops raped and tortured children in ukraine, un panel says. against the backdrop of the united nations general assembly here in new york this week was this new report by the un's independent international commission of inquiry. documents, it documents scores of war crimes that were committed by russian forces in ukraine. among them, cases in which children as young as four years old have been quote, raped, tortured, and unlawfully confined.

examples, by the, way of cases where relatives were forced to witness the crimes. the un commission also adds they were struck by the large number of executions in the areas we visited. remember, this report only covers places that the commission had access to. currently, russian occupied territory remains top off limits. imagine, for instance, the horrors that away in places like mariupol, or the hell that is currently going on here and elsewhere. right now, in four regions of ukraine, right around here. luhansk, donetsk, zaporizhzhia, and her son, which, by the, way for a land bridge to crimea, none of these places are under russian control completely. all of them have active battlefield fighting. russian forces are holding a staged, rushed, sham referendum for these four areas to join russia. crimea already had one of these, by the way. joining me now from kharkiv, ukraine, is nbc news correspondent jake gray. jay, what's the latest you are hearing about these referendums? >> well, from inside those controlled areas, what we're

hearing is a lot of fear, a lot of frustration, and in some instances, ali, defiance. people hiding in their homes, hiding in their apartments, trying to avoid this vote. i think it helps to set up how this vote is being carried out, and vote is a loose term of it comes to this referendum. basically, what is some mobile polling stations that have been thrown together, more often than not, though, it's posters going door to door, accompanied by armed russian soldiers and guards to take the votes. the ballot has one question, and it is, in essence, do you agree to secede from ukraine, form an independent state, and join the russian federation? a lot of people within the occupied areas are saying they are fearful of a no vote because of all those atrocities you talked about earlier. they've seen all of that. one woman saying a no vote would be, i disappear. and so a lot of people are trying to hide their apartments. we've got instances of people,

reports of people making lists of those who vote no, who knows what those lists will come to. we know the vote is going to continue through at least tuesday. as you talk about, it was rushed. this is because the counteroffensive is going so well. the kremlin decided, we've got to speed this thing up. we've got to get these votes in place, try to annex an area of land that is bigger than poland, and use that as a basis to say look. if you invade our lands, because it's been annexed, we can step up our attacks. >> jay, thank you for your reporting. this will be a big deal over the next few days, so the result is not going to be a big deal, because that could be predetermined. jay gray it's live from kharkiv, ukraine. still ahead, today's meeting of the velshi banned book club. this past year, we've been seeing calls to book bans, to ban books at a pace we haven't seen in decades. today, we are taking a look at the y. a few months ago, i asked nick stone, author of beer martin,

what she thinks. >> i have a fourth grader in kindergarten, and i understand the impulse and the instinct to want to keep your children safe and in the sense. but the difference between my children and the parents of children who can cry out against this book is they have to know the information in the book to secure safe. mine have this information. so, my hope is that instead of leaning into this fear that your kids are going to be exposed to something in a book that they are likely already exposed to in the world, parents would lean into the idea of compassion and being interested in other people's stories. stories. tony, the new outlaw's got double pepper jack and juicy steak. let's get some more analysis on that, chuck. mmm. pepper jack. tender steak. very insightful, guys. the new subway series. what's your pick? (vo) with verizon, you can now get a private 5g network. so you can do more than connect your business, very insightful, guys. you can make it even smarter.

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coming, up but you are programs and their. if you want to stick around for the cross connection, starting at 10 am eastern on msnbc. joining me now is the upon amiss tiffany cross herself. good morning to you, my friend. what if you got on tap? >> good morning, ali. so good to see you. you're right. we always, always have a jam-packed show. coming up on the cross connection, we are going to dive into the impact of rising majority will have on the upcoming midterm elections. plus, you just heard ali talk about banned books. this gop led culture war is in american schools taking a toll on students and teachers, as you know. so we will highlight a new documentary that looks at the harmful effects it's having on really, the country's youth. mostly youths of color.

but something that is really interesting, ali, the post pandemic let out has somehow led to a rise in sexually transmitted diseases. so, i want people to listen up and zip it up, because we are going to talk about. that also, we will talk about the most vulnerable groups and really how they can protect themselves. some of these diseases have been on the rise since the 90s. it's really interesting. all of that and much more, coming up on the cross connection. one quick thing i didn't mention that i do want to, black men in therapy, ali, -- it's one of my favorite tv shows, so we are going to talk about the latest episode, which features one of the protagonists in therapy. really interesting conversation. i'm going to try to get some 3:33 out of it myself. >> and you've got a -- reference in there as well. i knew you were going to get one of those two. it's good to see you, my friend. we'll be tuning. in tiffany cross, stay tuned after velshi for more. the cross connection starts at 10 am eastern. and today's meeting of the velshi banned book club is nearly in session, we spoke to many authors, we covered so many different books, and today, we are taking a look at

alarming and unprecedented pickups in bands as a whole. about a month ago, i asked the author, laurie halts anderson, author of speak, for her take on book banning. >> not just books about sexual violence, but also lgbtq books, books that feature protagonists that are not white, that are not christian. just all this constellation of books that are under attack right now. when we keep them away from our children, we are withholding wisdom from our kids. we are making life harder for our children, and we are damaging our nation. into the heart of iconic cities is a journey for the curious traveler, one that many have yet to discover. exploring with viking brings you closer to the world, to the history, the culture, the flavors, a serene river voyage on an elegant viking longship.

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it's subway's biggest refresh yet! you'd be forgiven for thinking this year's band book week was the first ever, and event inspired by the staggering uptick of challenged and banned literature, but you would be wrong. band book week is an annual event that has been going on for 40 years. that's more than four decades of banned books list of inappropriate topics of division of turning school libraries into battlegrounds instead of safe havens. but book banning goes way back, far earlier than the 19 80s. it's got a long and dark history. the first reported account of a book burning was in 2:13 bc, by notoriously brutal chinese emperor chen xi wong, which most copies of the confucian classics and many other books documented in history were destroyed. then, in the 1500, to see me hold my copy of the -- bible. it was the first copy of the holy book translated to english,

and because of mass printing, accessible to the common man. it was banned, and its author, william tyndall, was executed because the church didn't want mere laypeople to read scripture on their own, lest they come to their own conclusions about what the book or god, in this case, actually. mets and public bonfires or a staple of not see germany, torching socialist and communist, lgbtq, and ultimately, jewish texts. now, today in the united states, our books, our freedom to read and frankly, to right, are under attack and blatantly. so just look at the numbers. according to p.e.n. america, nonprofit champion those freedoms i'm just mentioned, 2532 individual books have been challenged or banned in 140 school districts across 32 states. that is just from the 2021 and 2022 school year. they are, as you probably get a sense from the banned books that we feature here on the velshi banned book club, overwhelmingly black and lgbtq plus stories, stories that shed light on the modern-day

american experience. but make no mistake about that. the targeted efforts to ban these books, and it is targeted, wages a war on readers who shares the identities of those characters and the authors. books like that represent change. they illustrate new ideas, but the sort of change is not one that some americans are interested in embracing. there's an irony in that reading these books would actually help bridge that figure, as this year's band book week puts it, books unite us. censorship divides us. members of the velshi banned book club are familiar with all of this. today and together, we've met different authors. we have grappled with different topics. we've considered different texts and meetings. week after week, chapter after chapter, look at them all on the wall behind me. and yet, these meetings never lose their urgency or their immediacy. the, day we are not looking at one book or one offer, but banned book in this country as a whole, and i've got a perfect guest. joining us after the break, it's p.e.n. america ceo, suzanne. suzanne.

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suzanne f. nossel, she's the ceo of p.e.n. america, she's also the author of dare to speak defending free speech for all. suzanne was formerly a member of the obama administration in the state department, human rights watch, an amnesty international. suzanne, thank you for being. here >> thanks for having me. we >> have a great event earlier this week at the new york public library talking with history book banning in america. there was a distinction that was made on that panel by one of our prior velshi banned book club guests, laurie halts anderson. it was a distinction about parents who have good faith fears about children learning about explicit material in books in school versus this organized effort to ban books because it challenges control. let's talk about that. >> sure, look. of course, parents need to have a say in their kids education. there is legitimate room for debate about what is the right

age to bring up certain concepts. should we be talking about gender identity and sexuality with very young children? and that needs to be a give and take within communities where teachers have a say, parents have a say, but the problem with this rash of book bannings really overrides any reasonable discussion to talk about, what are the merits of introducing these ideas to young children? how can it be done appropriately? is it seething ideas that children wouldn't otherwise be exposed to for a long time? but we can't have that calm, rational civic debates when people are waging war on books, when they are using this as an ideological tool, and that's what we see right now. it's a very confrontational, hostile approach that isn't the dialogue we need to resolve. i think there are legitimate issues we need to be able to talk about. >> one of the members of the audience at the new york public library the other day's a bit of the question i thought was great. could we just make sure people who want to ban books actually read them?

>> absolutely. one of the things that comes out in our report about 4% of all the bands across the country follow any kind of established procedure. there are procedures for this. there may be a book that doesn't belong in a second grade classroom, and the procedures for saying you bring a challenge, you say, here is what's wrong with this. i don't think it's the right thing. educators and parents look at it together. they read the book, they come to a recent decision, and when that happens, i think we can all accept the outcome. there needs to be some way to bring up concerns. >> it's not banning at that point. it feels like, crafting, curating your curriculum. >> that's right. we might disagree with the grounds of which a committee would render a decision, but nonetheless, it's a lot easier to accept sort of a recent, methodical process than these wholesale bans, taking an entire list of books no one has read. >> based on their name or their author or the characteristics of the author. one of the things we talk about here is sometimes, it's the book. sometimes, it's the. author sometimes, it's the actual words on the page.

taken the fullest you have all prepared at p.e.n. america, one gets the impression it's more political than about literature. >> absolutely. look, we've dealt with book bans for a long time. in my time at ten, for the first, year it was a few a year that a parent or librarian would have a concern and let's write a letter, and that would get the book restored back on the shelves. this is something very different. it's an organized, well resourced movement. they have clearly decided this is an issue that rivals people up. i think it's not a pocket issue, but a backpack issue. it's something that comes into the home. it's become a galvanizing tool that clearly organized groups have decided this is going to help them jen of members, get people riled up to vote in elections. we saw what happened in virginia, with glenn youngkin, sort of playing up this issue. >> it became a very key issue in that election. >> i expect more of a, as we come closer to the midterms. that has to be recognized. people have to understand this

is not fully on the level. this is not just a recent discussion between parents and school leaders about what should be taught in the classroom. this is part of an organized ideological movement that is really trying to push back against the tide of demographic change, the effort to become a more inclusive, more equal, pluralistic society. we see, obviously, similar trends are trying to restrict voting rights. this is of a piece of that. >> let's go to that election, the upcoming elections. there was an ad that featured a mother who was expressing concern about a book. was it beloved by tony morrison? it was. the argument was it's uncomfortable. which was, maybe, for some people, a good faith argument. a lot of these things make people uncomfortable. almost every one of the books featured on, this is by the, way anyone read anything by toni morrison, it's going to be uncomfortable. how do you, what's the recent way in which you explain to people who might be uncomfortable with their children reading something, that discomfort is an important part of the process of the learning process? >> absolutely.

look, it open, in an open society, in a democracy, we believe that exposure to ideas is what helps us refine our thinking, come up with better ideas, discern the truth, and children, as they grow up, need to be exposed to a breath of narratives. they need to understand the world they are going to live with, live in, the kinds of people they are going to be dealing with, and for all of us, reading with such a crucial window to get beyond the confines of our own lived experience and trigger empathy. be able to understand other people are dealing. with discomfort, if you are are a free expression advocate, the irony is that conservatives sort of style themselves as great first amendment defenders. you wouldn't need the first amendment if you are just dealing with content that made all of us comfortable. you wouldn't have, nobody would challenge free speech. you wouldn't need to rise in support of it. that's the whole point. that's, which is edgy, uncertain, controversial, is what we need to protect. that's what these books represent.

>> it's an important thing, the chair of this year's banned books week is an author, one of the earliest authors we had in the velshi banned books, george and johnson, the author of all boys are. blue i asked them for their take on why that book is targeted so heavily. what they said is that the book talks about the truth of the black queer experience as a young person. he said there are people, and almost every author has told me this when they talk about lgbtq issues or sexual assault, someone has written to them to thank them for giving them a way out or, in some cases, it saved lives, because someone sees themself in the experience. that is another element of this. it may be uncomfortable for a lot of people, but for a lot of young people, this is the first time they see someone telling their story. >> absolutely. these books can be life-saving. if you think of a kid who is growing up isolated. they can't reveal their identity to their family, to their community, to their teachers and peers, the book is a window to a different life or they can sort of see that it can get better. there may be a place for them overtime. unfortunately, that is what the

banners are afraid of. that is going to somehow cede ideas, and that children who wouldn't, aren't struggling with these issues are going to somehow be planted with the notion of a different identity that their parents are not comfortable with. so, that is right -- it, but we have heard likewise, persistently, that there are people for whom these books are lifesavers. they are lifelines. i think librarians and entertainers hear that from them as well. even in conservative places, a place like texas, or librarians acknowledge that for some children, or teens, these books are just an absolute lifeline. >> thank you for being here. thanks for the work that you do. for those of you out there, take a look at what p.e.n. america publishes. it is remarkable, remarkable information. it's suzanne nossel a ceo of p.e.n. america, author of the book there to speak. we have a special meeting of the velshi banned book club coming up next week. an american poet, novelist, and children's book author, benjamin o'leary will join us

with the highly decorated book, aristotle and dante discover the secrets of the universe, set in el paso, texas. in 1987. it's a lyrical coming of age novel which tells the story of two mexican american teenagers and their shared ethnic and sexual identities. aristotle and dante has been targeted numerous numerous times, including its spanish language translation. be sure to pick up and download a copy before we discuss it here next week. that does it for me. thanks for watching, we'll be back tomorrow, 8 am to ten again, the cross connection with tiffany cross because right now. right now. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> claiming you have money that you do not have does not amount to the art of the deal. it's the art of the steal. and there cannot be different rules for different people in this country or in this state.