rooms, and talking about it in a way that makes it accessible to so many of us who don't understand the concepts behind. it thank you for this remarkable book. thank you for being our guest this morning. tylee as a senior editor for slate. she is alonna -- she's the author of the new book, lady justice. women, the law, and the battle to save america. it's in stores now. straight ahead, the latest on the insurrection investigation, the january 6th select committee are back in action this week. our new seriously enough to the midterms that looks at the states in races where democracy is most at stake this november. today we head to pennsylvania where the republican nominee for governor set busloads of supporters to the capitol on january 6th. he's boasted about how he could intervene in elections if he wants. another hour of velshi begins right now. ght now. and good morning to you. it is sunday september the 20. feathers not am in the, east 6 am in the west.

i am velshi, it is the last time -- hurt in the january six committee. the committee is set to resume the hearings this week, laying out more findings from its year long investigation of the insurrection at the capitol. donald trump is desperate and illegal attempt to cling to power. the next hearing assad for this coming wednesday september 28th. that's one of the afternoon. over the last few days, members of the committee a participated in something called the texas tribune festival in, austin texas. they make comments about their investigation, given hints of what might be to come. here's with the democratic congressman -- of maryland said during his appearance. >> bannon said the night before tomorrow, all hell is going to break loose. it's not going to go down the way that anyone thinks it's going to go down. there are clearly people who understood the preparations that were taking place. if you think you almost knock over the government of the united states spontaneously, then you haven't been paying close attention because we have found this was a completely

premeditated deliberated attack on our government. >> a completely premeditated deliberate attack on our governments. the january six committee a as exhaustingly example in the attack from variety of angles to the intricate work of pieces together not just what happened on that day but also in the weeks that led up to its. the premeditated deliberate part. today, the committee has received and reviewed thousands of pages of relevant documents. they've interviewed more than 1000 people. they're about to add one more to that less, the committee recently announced they reached an agreement to speak with the wife of the supreme court justice, -- who's been implicated and the -- spread again lies of election fraud in order to overturn the results of the 2020 election. at the festival, -- we're also a member of the january six committee. he suggested that this was day's hearing is likely to be the last one. but, interestingly, the committee's vice chair, the republican liz cheney contradicted that. in her interview, she says she

doesn't anticipate this is going to be the last one. a possible sign that things remain in flux for the committee. she and even more interesting things to say beyond her work in the committee. here's what member, representative cheney said, again a republican said about the upcoming midterms and her future in the republican party. cheney of, course is not returning to congress next. year she lost her primary to approach a republican. >> so are you going to campaign for katie hobbs, a democratic candidate for arizona as a result of it? >> i'm going to do everything i can to make sure that karen leak is not elected. >> so does that include campaigning for democrats if that's what it takes? >> yes. >> will you remain a republicans regardless what happens in the next election? >> i'm going to make sure donald trump i'll do everything i can to make sure he's not the nominee. if he is the nominee i won't be a republican. >> well, there is a woman who speaks her mind.

for more on this, let's bring in nbc news -- who is in austin texas. she's the other half of the aisle ev segment on the show. there is a lot of remarkable stuff coming out of liz cheney, a lot of news. >> yeah, a lot of news, ali. this is sort of the norm for her lately. she has been telling stories that her staff tells me they thought they would never hear her tell publicly and it's cheney in a new phase. that post primary phase where she lost and wyoming, surprising exactly no one last night. she said she would not vote for the woman who beat her there, caroline hageman who is among those who denied the results of the 2020 election in order to heal more closely to donald trump. what is striking about cheney last night is the way that she is sort of laid out this imperfect metric of what she will be doing going forward. clearly saying that she is not ready to give up on her republican party ads, but also saying that she is willing to campaign for democrats when it comes to a democrat versus an

election denier. there is a really fascinating question that was submitted by somebody called themselves a conservative in the audience. they asked what they should you have the person who's a republican in their district is a denier of the election. should they sent home? should they not vote? what should they do? cheney said, no you should vote for the democrat. it's a really striking puzzle that she's piecing together in real time here. saying that show campaign against election deniers, but also saying that she is not yet ready to give up on her republican party. >> let's talk about what we think is happening at the january six committee on wednesday. they were disagreeing views about whether this was the last testimony they're going to hear, or the last public arena going to hear. we're not sure what the results of that investigation, what is going to be out there, what's your sense of what's happening with the committee? >> look, one say it's clear that we're going to see the same format that we've seen time and again about two hours of an afternoon hearing. they are promised a, while being very tightlipped on the

details in the focus, they are promising that we're going to see new things from witnesses that we may have already heard from before, but who they've love s'mores in the cutting room floor from. they're going to be bringing most of the four now as well. i think that when you hear congressman raskin and schiff say that they think this is the last hearing, but vice chair cheney says that she doesn't anticipate that's the case, i think there's a way that all of them can be right here. these are the last potentially of the hearings that focus on semantically. we also expect that once they release the interim report, and then into the winter, the final report, there could be hearings around that as well. the timing is very influx. as you can, see in realtime, with many of these conversations that we're having on the hill with these lawmakers, but also that there have been here in austin at the -- festival. they are still in realtime figuring out what this looks like. and, the fact that they are still fac othering is something that we have to keep in mind here. over the course of time that they were not doing public hearings in august, they were still talking to a lot of people with great information for the committee.

people who were like, mike pompeo, others who are in the cabinet. that gives them a lot of insight into what happened after january six. then the news that we reported this week, that they have an agreement to speak with ginni thomas. all of this means that once again they are in a position of presenting facts, while also still fact gathering. that makes that interim report, the final report time very interesting for those of us who are waiting for it. >> ali, good to see my friend. that you are joining us this morning. it's an hour earlier for you that we are always a good friend to the show. ali -- capitol news correspondent. the january six committees investigation of donald trump's role in the capitol insurrection is just one and a growing list of investigations. the big news this week was on wednesday. this woman, the new york state attorney general letitia james, announced her supple lawsuit against the former presidents. alleging that him, and his three eldest children, took part and years of fraudulent business practices related to the trump organization. james also made criminal referrals to the justice department if a case is civil.

she made criminal referrals to the justice department and the iris. the allegation she's making, and the evidence she's and covering, could be devastating to donald trump. in ways that are not yet fully appreciated. i want to turn to those revelations, and talk to someone who is very familiar with them. suzanne craig was part of a new york times team that won the pulitzer prize in 2019 for an 18 month investigation than uncovered the trump family's history up tax dodges. she's also an msnbc contributor, she joins me now. for those of you who are new york times readers, it is a story the likes of which i do not believe you've ever seen. it was pages and pages of -- very deep dive stuff, suzanne. when you heard these charges, in the referral of this case of the department of justice and the iris, and laetitia james a civil suit, how much of what you heard was the work that you had done back in you won the pulitzer prize? >> well the allegations were circling familiar to us.

we -- as you, sad we've done 18 months of work. that work didn't look at some of the current stuff that she's looking at, but the storyline was certainly familiar. what we found when we were doing our work on that piece that ran in 2018, we found that the family had repeatedly engaged in this asset inflation where they had assets, but it was to their advantage in cases to either inflate the assets, or make them look like they were worth less money in order for financial -- for their own personal gain. that is now a threat that's carried through to her investigation. what is really, and i've had a lot of time now to read her complaints, what is just breathtaking about it is not just the number of examples, the documentation that they have, and the cooperating witnesses. in this case, it's mostly banks and insurance companies. it's not just that they were sane and asked that was worth one amount, and another, they

were to see vein. they were hiding information from them, i mean, it's really just, and it's complete and has, it's quite something the document. >> of course, some people in our audience would say they don't want to civil suit, they want to criminal prosecution. in this case, she is going after you, i believe, she's out of floor of about 200 and $50 million. she argues that the -- taxpayers of new york state were defrauded of. we talk to michael cohen yesterday who thinks that this number could be substantially higher in the 750 million to a billion dollar range. his argument is that this kind of money, if the trump organization or families forced to pay, wife them out. >> it could go higher or could go lower. i want to caution people on that. this could go to a trial, it could reach a settlement. the trump organization is tried to satellite, but that could still happen. we don't have the response. yeah they'll file, pending a settlement in between, they're going to file a response. we really don't know where it's

going to lance. that's a lot of money. 250 million, let's just say lands on that. or even 200, 150 go lower. that's still a lot of money to bring to an organization that for the most part, another work that we have done, we changes tax -- through 2018. you can see that it's very hard in that information to find any of his businesses that make money. this isn't someone who's walking around with a huge amount of cash just to be able to settle a case like this, a civil case. >> i remember when this first came out you, and i were talking about the fact that there were people around, particularly in new york, who role in these circles of financing and buildings who say, what happened there what was common, people did that. investors would overvalue their properties for purposes of getting bank loans, undervalue them for purposes of taxes. overvalue them for purposes of insurance. what in your mind, as you study

this and read this complaints, causes, where is that line between civil and criminal? >> i think of two things. when you say that, the forces that everyone does it's as an excuse. it's a -- that's one thing. then when i look at this case, is not just that he went into a magazine and said i'm worth $5 million, puts the paper in front of them to convince them of that, and they ran on the story. he went into a financial institution and, let's take deutsche bank is an example, he went in and he said, my assets, my complete pitcher here is my financial statement. i am worth so many billion dollars. he certify that, and that's not just the asset that they were looking ranged, he was looking to get a loan against, that's all of them. he certified them year after year. he did that in order to get a better rate. that's where you cross the line. he did that with banks, he did that with insurance companies. in other cases, he said is not

just worth, that it's worth that and i have a appraisals to back this up when none existed. he deceived, them highlights of, them he certified a year after year, for personal gain. >> suzette, thank you for your excellent reporting and for joining us this morning. suzanne craig is a pulitzer prize-winning investigative reporter with the new york times. still ahead this hour, of on velshi, high interest rates. we'll discuss that catch 20 22 of the world's top economist. plus, how crucial are to malicious. your consider, this -- will have an election denier on their ballots. takes your high. incredibly high. after the, break the update on the brutal war in ukraine for a reporter in moscow. he says russian state tv is still calling as, quote, defensive. you're watching velshi. ing velshi next is the new great garlic. the tender rotisserie style chicken is sublime and the roasted garlic aioli adds a lovely pecan flavor. man, the second retirement really changed you. the new subway series. what's your pick?

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brutal war in ukraine.

vladimir putin is facing intense in growing pushback within russia following his announcement of a mobilization of a citizen worry to feed his warning. it's one that could send 1 million russian men into war with minimal training and less motivation. protests have erupted in cities across russia, several thousand people have been arrested at these protests. remember, in russia, remains illegal to call this thing a war. this comes a's ukraine claim -- as russian forces offer a sham referendum in four regions of ukraine. sky news alex rossi has more on the story from moscow. >> well i think the best way to view these referendums as really as a response from the kremlin's counteroffensive that we have seen launch successfully by the ukrainians. i think it's clear that vladimir putin is rattled by what's happening in, it's why they have been expedited.

originally, they were going to be held in a few weeks. time i think this is clear that they are a complete sham. i think also there is no doubt as to their results. i think people will be the same -- in crimea when an annexation vote was held. they're the population voted 97% to join russia. i think it's a foregone conclusion that this will happen. from the russian perspective, they think it will street that their heads when it comes to we could've negotiations around this conflict. you will also give them greater military powers. they'll be able to use more deadly weapons to prosecute the invasion in ukraine. the narrative that's been played out on state television here is that really, this special military operation is not being called war is of a defensive nature. we're very familiar with the

russian narrative. it is to protect russian -speaking members of the ukrainian -- from and not see hoard that has sprung from kyiv. i think the other interesting thing that we see now is the kind of response that you're getting here with the public to the partial mobilization. now as many as 300,000 people could be drafted in russia -- to fight this war on the front lines. already, we are seeing some people attempting to leave the country. there have been cues, bigger cues of traffic, of people trying to get to neighboring countries. men of fighting age. also, we have seen tickets be sold out. airline tickets been sold out. prices are going through the roof. people are voting with their feet, really, to try to escape from vladimir putin's special military operation. >> sky news is alex rossi

reporting from moscow. coming up, and six weeks will be in a voting booth so they're not illicit names. more likely than not, one of those names is going to be an election denier. we'll have details on this incredibly high stakes and return season coming up next on velshi. o velshi ♪ ♪ i'm way ahead of schedule with my trusty team ♪ ♪ there's heather on the hedges ♪ ♪ and kenny on the koi ♪ ♪ and your truck's been demolished by the peterson boy ♪ ♪ yes -- ♪ wait, what was that? timber... [ sighs heavily ] when owning a small business gets real, progressive helps protect what you've built with affordable coverage. what happens when performance... meets power? you try crazy things... ...because you're crazy... ...and you like it. you get bigger... ...badder... ...faster. ♪

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the tender rotisserie style chicken is sublime and the roasted garlic aioli adds a lovely pecan flavor. man, the second retirement really changed you. the new subway series. what's your pick? we're just over six weeks away for the midterm elections. it's not about which party gains control of the house and senate, it's about the fragility of our democracy and whether our country goes down the road of truth or lies. according to fivethirtyeight, 60% of voters will have an election denier on the ballot this november. from now until election day, each weekend we're going to evaluate where and when democracy is at risk in this political season. today we're looking at pennsylvania. let's start with the senate race. they're at the current land tenant general is a democratic candidate. he's going to face off because republican attorney -- doctor oz.

doctor oz has been endorsed by former president trump, he is taking a page from his playbook, -- forgetting there's evidence that just proves. that for instance, oz's campaign recently said he's pro-life, but believed in inception's for rape, incest, and life the mother. last, may oz was caught on -- saying abortion is murder no matter any stage of pregnancy because he believes like because the conception. he also says his supporters that he wouldn't have oppose the certification of the 2020 election if he were in the senate. last april he said, quote, we cannot move on from the 2020 election, suggesting that he believes the election of joe biden was illegitimate. if you're wondering about his character in addition to his politics, austin's team have been mocking his opponent, john fetterman, after fetterman's arrived a recent stroke. he said, quote, if john fetterman had never enough edged-able in his life, maybe he would've had a major stroke. let's look at who's running for governor in pennsylvania. democratic --

joshua pirro is running against republican state senator, doug mastriano. machine knows -- veer so far writes that many influential members of his own party have actually jump to the opposite side of the aisle to endorse shapiro instead. mastriano has been publicly backed by former president trump, the ceo of far-right social media website gab as well. an online breeding grad for white nationalist who were banned from other platforms, including people like -- behind the tree of life synagogue attack, or the murders in pittsburgh. mastriano is such a huge fan of trump that he's thousands of dollars in campaign funding to charter buses to see trump speech in person on january six. you see the january six committee to try to avoid testifying about his experience that day. he's vowed to appoint a secretary of state and give them the power to make corrections to elections, the voting logs in everything. and quote. he's also said he would

decertify -- he is prepared to encroach on bodily autonomy. in an interview in august he said it's, quote, discussing that the current governor tom wolfe was the ban so-called gay conversion therapy. during the primary debate, mastriano says he would support a ban on contraception. clearly he doesn't support abortion, not even with exceptions to rape, incest, and the health of the pregnant person. none last fun fact about my shadow. he's a retired -- and the war college. you can see in this faculty photo, he's the one on the left where the confederate uniform. the district he represents includes gettysburg, the -- where the civil war turns against the confederacy. that's a lot. joining now is josh shapiro. he's a sitting attorney general of pennsylvania. he's also the states democratic nominee for governor. josh, good to see you again. thank you for being with us. i'm mostly struck by the idea that this polling indicates that 5:38 information says

election deniers will appear on the ballot for 60% of potential voters across the country. this is not tricky for pennsylvania. if the austrian no has made the big lie his entire personality. >> yeah, without question. he's also made tearing down democratic institutions the focus of his campaign. sorry, i'm losing my voice. so many rallies across the state i apologize. the bottom line is this, guy has talked about taking away our vote. he's talking about taking away the rights to marriage, who you love. taking away the rights to have bodily freedom. every single day it's about taking away a fundamental freedom from pennsylvania. or pushing back against that. we are the candidate of the party of freedom. we are the ones that are going to defend our democracy. we will defeat doug pasta on november 8th. >> he's promised to make a secretary of state in place he would intervene elections. obviously that means different

things to different people. to mastriano's people that means, the 2020 election would be changed the results. by the, way that would've meant joe biden wouldn't be president. pennsylvania is actually where democracy could die. in november. what would it be like if you became governor but the secretary of state in place to do the things that he's talking about? >> well this is super dangerous, not just for pennsylvania voters, but all across the nation. hear me on this, we are pretty unique here in pennsylvania. the governor appoints the secretary of state. he basically has complete authority over the certified in the winner. in the past, ali, look, if you ran against -- and you got one more vote than she did, she'd win the election. there's not a post-jonas pennsylvania. he's made clear that he is going to review the law books. the voting roll. he's going to decertify voting machines. if he doesn't like the outcome,

if he doesn't like the will of the people, think about the chaos that would bring not just pennsylvania, but to the rest of the nation. of course this week he is the swing states in the nation, we oftentimes -- presidential candidate over the top. thus look undermines our democracy. if we don't have a free and fair election here in pennsylvania listen, ali, this is the birthplace of our democracy. this is the place where it all started. kate i believe in pennsylvania we have a unique responsibility to defend the democratic institutions. they're the very democracy that all of the -- wool laid upon. >> for the record, if i were running against nicole wallace that would probably vote for nicole wallace. i get your example. you have gained a remarkable support from highly prominent republicans and your state. talk to me about that. i literally was in pennsylvania on friday was talking to

republicans who said i'm popping a fund raising for josh sapporo. but is it about you or drug mastriano that is caused pennsylvania republicans to support you? >> well first, off i was proud to be the unifying choice of the democratic party. there's no opposition -- he came behind me. what we've seen in the months sense is that folks here in pennsylvania are ready to take off the red jersey and where the pennsylvania jersey. they recognize the stakes are so high. the contrast couldn't be clearer. we each have a responsibility to defeat the kind of dangerous extremism that dark mastriano -- defend our democracy, create real opportunity for schoolchildren, opportunities for safety to our communities, opportunities to grow our economy and reduce costs on pennsylvania families. folks recognize this -- is where we have to come together. while i'm obviously proud to have the support of the democratic party, i'm incredibly proud to have

republicans and independents coming across party lines and supporting me from former george w. bush homeland security secretary, to republican county emissions here in pennsylvania. folks are coming together because they recognize we have to defeat this dangerous extremism outside mastriano, and come together to create opportunity and meaningful things done here in pennsylvania. >> last weekend we were talking to katie hobbs, who are looking at arizona. we look at katie hobbs who's in a similar situation. you're running against people who are much in the nine or, is there a liars. how do you handle that? do you fact-check douglas trio? does fact-checking douglas trio no give air to the nonsense that he talks? >> yeah i focus on trying to make a case, with the positive of what we do in our democracy to protect our freedoms, like the right to choose, and create opportunity for children who don't often have opportunities, especially in some of our role in urban communities. i find that doug while she ono

as someone who -- here in pennsylvania. won't talk to the media. won't talk to people who don't think like him, worship like him for, i like him, and married like him. these are insular and his approach. i find that i don't like we've seen a whole lot of time talking about him, but rather focus on my positive vision for how we can bring pennsylvania together, get meaningful things done. >> josh, good to see you again as always. you have been a friend of the show for years. i appreciate the fact that you are always willing to come on and talk, whether it's two people you agree with or not. joshua perot is pennsylvania's attorney general, for the states now many of governor. next, a medical -- to address the crusty wave of mental health issues in this country. it'll be including an ex physicals. coming up on velshi. on velshi. style. and innovative ways to make your e-tron your own.

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a couple of years to say police. the ongoing pandemic, the era of solitude of -- deadly police violence against people of color, a major uptick in hate crimes against people of asian jewish descent, a brutal warned ukraine, mass shootings, whiplash from the markets, wildfires around the globe, all of that on top of everything going on in your personal life are most likely affecting your mental health. you are not alone.

now the u.s. preventative service task force, an independent group of independent medical experts are trying to do something about it. it's recommending that every adults under the age of 65 gets screened for anxiety. consider this, according to the world health organization, global prevalence of anxiety and depression increased by a 25% during the first year of the pandemic. anxiety disorders go grossly undetected and nine diagnosed. another study from the world health organization found that the medium time for initiating treatment for anxiety is a shocking 23 years from the initial onset of symptoms. this plan could also look towards defeating another mental health emergency that we're facing as a nation, shame. and many communities, mental health treatments like therapy, or even prescribed medication is still taboo and heavily stigmatized. so perhaps if we're all screen, we're all talking about our own struggles with mental health,

that shapeable dissipates. treating your mental health is critical should be as commonplace is getting a yearly physical exam, or your seasonal flu shot. think about that. joining me now is the host of the sunday show, jonathan kaye part. jonathan, good morning to. you're good to see you. >> good morning, ali. good to see you too. you know i think that's a great recommendation that they're putting out there. >> yeah it's a lot better if it's out of the system rather than putting it on everyone's own shoulders to go out there and talk about something that they're not comfortable talking about. i think this could be a big development. >> yeah, very. beg reducing shame, as you mentioned, but also the stigma that makes sets a routine thing, your mental health is as important as your physical health, as you point out there, ali. as you well know, we've got a lot. we have a jam-packed show on the sunday show coming to you from los angeles this morning, california congressman karen bass will be in studio to talk about why she is uniquely

positioned to be the next mayor of los angeles, and her plan to tackle the cities homeless problem, which actually rose during the pandemic. also joining me is north carolina, joining me north carolina, is the first block supreme court justice, serhiy beasley. she is in a bid to be a senator for north carolina will. talk to her about the close race she is in north carolina, state that trump won twice. she's running a trump backed candidates. an election denier -- congressman -- i have an exclusive interview with white house senior adviser. she'll be responding to the house republicans new midterm agenda. they unveil this a few days ago. all of that plus our friend chef jose aldrin is coming to us live from puerto rico. all of that, ali. on the sunday show. >> jose, he beats every one into their places. he's out there doing the things that a lot of people don't think are important.

he's providing food and logistics by people who are hit by disasters and war. looking for to see. as they tuned for the sunday show, starting after velshi tonight. coming up, raising interest rates are the best way to bring down inflation. prices echoes are on the rise, along with the cost of borrowing money. it squeezing a lot of. you a crucial discussion of how you should think about a plan for the next few months, straight ahead. head pro? (cecily) yup, with this amazing new camera, smile! (adam) and you got it on verizon? (cecily) iphone 14 pro, on them. you should get one! wow, you can hustle. (vo) get a new iphone 14 pro, on us. and get it with one unlimited for iphone. only on verizon. ♪♪ subway's drafting 12 new subs for the all-new subway series menu the new monster has juicy steak and crispy bacon. but what about the new boss? it looks so good it makes me hangry! settle down there, big guy the new subway series. what's your pick?

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wooooo!!!!! woohooooo!!!! w-o-o-o-o-o... yeah, feel the savings. priceline. every trip is a big deal. ♪♪ giorgio, look! the peanut butter box is here. ralph, that's the chewy pharmacy box with our flea and tick meds. it's not peanut butter. ♪ the peanut butter box is here ♪ i'm out. pet prescriptions delivered to your door. chewy. in an in an effort to further effort to further combat persistently combat persistently high high inflation this past wednesday, the inflation, this past wednesday the united states united states federal reserve federal reserve once again once again raised raised interest interest rates. the rates. the central central bank branch bank increased rates by increased 75 basis it by points. that's 75 basis point, that the third consecutive height a third consecutive hike of that size. of that size. and the the fifth time fifth time that rates have the rates have been raised been raised this year. this year. more more hikes are hikes are likely on the, likely on the way way increasing interest increasing interest rates is the fed's number rates and -- it's the feds number one tool for one tool for control inflation. controlling inflation. it's the way you do it's the way you do. it it.

with but with that being that being, sad this said. it puts many puts every day americans every day americans between between a rock and a rock and a hard place. a hard place. according to the u.s. but couldn't the u.s. census bureau, census bureau, 37 million americans live 37 million americans live below the below the poverty poverty line. line. with the so with the u.s. u.s. scene of seeing an inflation rate north of lucian rates north of a percent, 8%, many millions of people can't people can't afford afford groceries, groceries, toiletries, other goods other goods necessary to provide for the necessary to provide for their families, let families, let alone gas. alone gas. even though that even though that prices prices come down for come down for three months. three months. according according to a gallop survey conducted last month, 34% to a gallup service -- conducting last of month, several household households say they're facing polled say they're facing severe to moderate severe or moderate hardship, hardship because of inflations evening rising prices. even catching up with this is catching higher income housing. up with higher the same survey shows income households. 40% of 40% of respondents who are more than respondents that earn more than 90,000 annually 90,000 annually say that they're say they are also also facing financial facing financial hardship. hardship up from, up from 29% but the same question was 29% when the same question asked last was asked last november. november. but inflation is just inflation is just one side one side of the coin of the corn here. here. when the when the fed raises rates to fed raises rates to slow down spending slow down spending and to tame pain, and to -- inflation, it affects you effects your all your money in other money and other ways as ways as well well. for starters,. for starters, credit card interest credit card interest becomes becomes more expensive. more expensive. if you are carried if you're carrying a balance on your a balance on your car, the car, the rate you pay is rate you pay has likely likely skyrocketed.

skyrocketed. meaning, meaning it more more money out your money out of your pocket. pocket. plus, mortgages, plus, mortgages, car car loans, personal loan, personal loans, loans, they all become they all become costly. costly or. and if you if you borrowed money borrowed money for for school, school some some private loans could private loans can be be influenced by the influenced by the fed fed right. you rates. you may may have to pay have to pay more in that more in that case as case as well, well. on top of all and on top of all of that, this that, this is is all about all about consumer consumer psychology. psychology it's much more. so it's much art than science, more art than which means that all of science that which this raising rates means that all of could have these race in rates could have the unintended the and intended consequence of triggering consequence of triggering a recession. a recession that's, which is exactly exactly why markets in why markets in your your 401k 401k have been reacting have been reacting so poorly lately. so poorly yet another lately. thing that is yet another thing that is costing you, costing you potentially potentially, real money money. after. so after this this quick break, we'll be quick break up we joined joined by two brilliant by two brilliant economists. economists to to dive dive deeper deeper into what the into what your current current state of the state of the economy means for all economy means for all of of us right now. us right now. and in the coming and in the coming months. months. stick around, velshi's back in a flash. stick around, velshi is back in a flash. lshi is back i a flash. a flash. ♪ and power... ...is a very good thing. ♪

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♪♪ subway's drafting 12 new subs for the all-new subway series menu the new monster has juicy steak and crispy bacon. but what about the new boss? it looks so good it makes me hangry! settle down there, big guy all right, i'm joined now by the new subway series. what's your pick?

two brilliant economic minds. the -- chief i'm joined by two brilliant economic economic adviser minds mohamed a. el-erian -- is ads -- he's the a former deputy of the former international monetary fund. he's the author of the only game in town, director of the monetary if. and he's the central banks author of instability and avoiding the nets the only game in collapse. town. lori bettinger is -- is a former financial accounted for the fcc, a former a former director of director of the the -- troubled asset relief troubled asset program at the u.s. release -- of the treasury, and the u.s. treasury. president of the and the fake alliance. president of the pack alliance. welcome to both of you. thank you for being with us things will be with us this this morning. it's important morning. this is an important conversation. investigation. let me lori, let me start with.

you there start with you, are people that are just there are people who worried. and some of are worried. some of its about interest rates. this is about interest rates, because those costs are because these making peoples costs are making peoples lives lives harder. harder, but but some of it is some of it is watching the watching the stock market, stock market. watching the 401ks watching their go down. 401(k) s go down. what do you have to say to what do you have to say to people right now who are people right now who are watching this in watching this in realtime to say realtime to say, how i think about how do i think about my investments in the my investments in the next few months? and next two years? next few months, the next >> few years? >> i have to say, i i have to say think it's i think it's completely natural to be completely natural to be worried right now. worried right now. and in fact, if in fact, if you, aren't you'd you weren't, you almost have to wonder, almost have to are you been wonder are you being optimistic optimistic to the to point of the point of maybe not not reading the news reading the news as closely as you want as closely as to? it's you would want to. true. i think a lot but it's of people who look true. i think when you look around, you see the signs around and see the signs on the stock in the stock market inflation and interest market, and inflation, and interest rates. rates it's easy to just go into it's easy to go into this panic and think to this panic and think to myself -- myself, should i stop spending? what should i do should i stop spending, what should i do? here? i think you have to here but i think you tease out have to -- , through all this from all the data, data, how does it affect me what -- personally? how does it happens if at me affect my family personally? how does it affect my, my family? my household. you start household? start with with the stock market. we the stock market. talk about we talk about for 401(k) s. of, all a one case. first of, not all of us are lucky all not all of us are enough to have one. lucky enough to have one. i'm guilty of this, i but --

see the news what you have to ask yourself, how you have to ask yourself close am i to how close am i retirement. your see retirement? your 401k is probably had 401k has a lot of probably had a lot of cycles through your cycles through your career. if you're career. and if you're not that close, this might not that close not be something that to -- affects you as much. i it might not think it's the excess affect you as. same non mortgage much it might be the rates. you same for mortgage rates. can either you could read there are -- it's double, is more expensive to buy a house if you expensive to can even find buy a house if you can even one. you have to five or stop and say, one. you have to, say did hey, today i recently buy recently by a house. a house, and my did lumped in a fixed rate i recently mortgage? did refinance? i recently refinanced? does this affect me it does affect me personally? i think personally? i think with with inflation gets inflation it is harder. harder, it's really it's really difficult to difficult to imagine a family not affected. you have to -- but take time you have to take the time to to say, how does think about how does this affect this affect me and my me and my family? family? >> you are a little >> muhammad, worried about what could you're a little bit worried about what could happen, and there is happen. and there's a distinction between stock a distinction between stock market cycles market cycles and and recession. so recession. they're not entirely not entirely separate. if you separate. but if you look at the last, of just look at the trying to think of the last last, i'm trying to think of few big things that the last big things happen to the stock that happen in the stock market after market after 9/11, the 9/11, the great recession of great recession, 2000 19, 009, the 2018 2009, the pandemic, the pandemic, the hit that the markets hit the market stuck in those took in those days of days of triple digit triple digit losses. we losses. we recovered from all of recovered from all them. if of them. your time so if you're horizon

exists, talking for my viewer, verizon doesn't make sense to -- for my future -- cash out of the market right now and be told viewers, does things are better? it or should they not touch paid to cash out, or should they not anything? >> touch anything? it >> it depends how exposed all depends you are. how exposed you if you are. have if you have emergency savings then no emergency savings then,, you don't no, you don't want to panic and want to panic and get get out. but out. if you if you put put everything into the stock everything into the stock markets market you will feel -- lori is -- laura's absolutely right, absolutely right. when you when you rank rank what you are what we're worried about, worried about inflation is, inflation number one. is number that one. that eats is the way our purchases away at our country are going every single every single day day. number two is interest. number rates. a lot two is interest rates. of us have debt. a lot of us have debt and rates are going rates are going up. number up number three is what's three is what is happening happening to the to the economy economy and the and the possibility of possibility of recession. recession therefore, income and. and there security. for the final one is your 401k. your income and's security 401k is there the. final is the for the long term. 401k, is there for the long-term. it's it's important, as laura important, as lori said, to put it into said, to put perspective. the into perspective. the key thing is to key is to realize realize that we're going that there are through three paradigm shifts three paradigm shift in a time when we are losing confidence in at

a time we're losing the federal reserve. confidence in our we are going federal reserve. we are going through an through an interest rate paradigm interest rate paradigm shift, shift, a growth paradigm shift, a growth paradigm and shift and mobilization paradigm a globalization for paradise shift. we shift. and we look to our look to our policy makers to policy makers to guide us but guide us. but unfortunately the feds unfortunately, the have been very fed has been late as you and very late, as you and i have discussed i have discussed for 18 months for 18 months. . and now it's hiking now, it is hiking across the valley for aggressively to the slowing economy, slow the economy, making things worse, making things worse, unfortunately. unfortunately. >> -- lori, muhammad makes makes a good point, the a good point. the 401(k) s not the 401k is not priority for the priority for everyone. for most people, it everybody. for is jobs. most people it is jobs. we are in we're in a relatively a relatively good job situation in the good job situation united states. in the united states, unemployment is below unemployment is what the three of us used to below what the three of us used to think think of as full employment. of as full wages are higher. employment, wages i am are higher. i'm mostly worried that if emotionally worried it the fight is if what the fed is doing triggers doing triggers a recession, a recession that is that's where we are where we are going to going to see the most. heart see the most her, what is your thought about what are your thoughts about unemployment and unemployment and what the fed is doing to what the fed is doing to fight inflation with fight inflation with that, through that that through that lens. >> lens? >> right, and i really agree with i really agree with that. i think that. and i think mohammed mentioned mohammed mentioned confidence, you mentioned confidence, you mentioned psychology earlier. psychology i think it's earlier. i natural that we all think

it's natural that look for -- where we it might be -- have work optimistic. right now, the job we can be market -- optimistic. right now the job we've market is it. we've been seeing jobs been seeing jobs added every month, we added every month. we don't see don't have any huge spikes in this first time huge spikes in these first time unemployment claims. so unemployment claims, but you look at that, in your, like how you look at that and you are could we be in like how can we be a recession, the job market's in a recession at the great. then you market is great? and then you look into the listen to the fatty, listen to the words coming fed and the words coming out in their state, i know out there saying that's great, we're going to, i know that's stop that. great, and we're gonna the job stop that. the job market is too market is too strong there's strong, two jobs for our two jobs for every respeaker, this pressure on seeker. this pressure on wages. that's not wages that is not good. the. that is the that's the market. market that we have we have to slow down. to slow down we we have to have to increase increase unemployment, even if you unemployment, know go to this level even if you go to this level that they're talking, they are talking, about about silver it's over million people losing 1 million people losing jobs. i think jobs it's really hard and i think it's when you read about really hard when you read that, when you hear about that and hear about while the job markets about the job good, but we're going market being good, but we are going to may get not to make it not a strong, it's hard not a strong, to worry and have it is hard not to that play into all of that worry and have that play into fear. >> all of that fear. talk to me >> mama about this, you talk to me about this both spent your. both of you time explaining spend your time explaining these tough concepts to these tough concepts to people who don't think about it people who don't think about it all the time, right? all the time, the idea right? the that the fed doesn't idea that the fed have a ton of does not have a ton of tools in its tool tools in his tool box, it

box. it could slow the could slow the economy down to economy down, or just be the economy up speed it up using using the lever of that interest rates, interest rates, generally generally speaking. speaking. the the way you, and, way you in theory fight theory fight inflation inflation, as you raise interest is raise interest rates. you make it more rates, you make it more expensive to borrow money. expensive to borrow people start buying money, people stop less. the buying less, the economy slows down. economy slows down. it but it, is whether is, whether it's it's confidence or confidence or psychology, or are versus science, psychology, or are forced to science, the formula is not they're -- the formula is baked. not baked. you also are and you concerned also are about the concerned about the aggressiveness of the fed. aggressiveness of the i will say, fed. i the fed doesn't, the bank will say, the fed of canada does, that the does, it the bank european central bank does, it does, at the uk, does it 44 countries are going through this right now. 44 countries are going through it right now. develop countries. developed countries. is the fed doing the is the fed doing the right thing or should it slow terrell? right thing? or >> ships load's role? >> so the fed the fed is is doing the right thing, doing the right, thing unfortunately. it's unfortunately it is doing a very doing it very late. late. we could have we could have avoided avoided all this. last year, all of this. the economy last year the economy was strong. was strong, last last year markets were year markets were doing well. doing well. the the fed at that fed at that point should have point should have eased its foot eased its foot off the off the accelerator. accelerator. instead, it instead, it continued with pedal continued with pedal to the to the metal metal until until much of march of this this year. year it was. it seduced by was seduced by

the this concept that concept that this inflation inflation was -- was transitory. now it is so now it is slamming on the brakes. slamming on the we have brakes. we've never had never had three successive three successive 75 basis 75 basis points hikes that point hikes as we've we've had this year. had this year. the fed so the fed has no has no choice, unfortunately choice, unfortunately. , but to raise aggressively. because it is but too -- because it's late. and late. therefore there will be there will be collateral collateral damage. i agree damage. and i agree with with lori, it's very lori. it's very disturbing to disturbing to people to people read that the that you people you trust trust to who deliver deliver good good economic outcomes are telling economic -- are you, i'm going to raise telling you i'm gonna raise unemployment. unemployment. people people can't compete can't compute. that that. what do you what do you mean? you're mean? you're supposed supposed to be guiding us to be guided through through this. this, not making things not making things worse. worse. but unfortunately, unfortunately, that's the reality that's the reality we're we live in. >> living in. lori, how does >> lori, this how does this change? how does it change? how does end? the fed, it end? the fed you know the feds all is all about signals indications, things about signals in indications and things like that. -- have been like that and the fairly direct. if you policy don't like interest rates, we're has been fairly direct going to see more of. then -- if you don't like we're going to keep interest rates, you're gonna voided raise interest keep seeing them. we're gonna rates and so we believe we've keep raising them until we got inflation under have control.

inflation under control part of that is a message of the mark, as part of that is. part of that's the message to the a message to people who markets, people who spent spent a lot of money. this is a lot of money, this going to keep going is gonna keep on. don't going. don't borrow money right now borrow money right now because you're because you are going to end up gonna end up paying more a more. on it. at what what point does point does it click and a clerk, on the fence that the feds sit there and there and says, okay, say, jobs done. okay, jobs, done we're we are going to pull going to pull back on back on raising raising interest rates, in the interest rates in the economy economy is going to start to is going to start to heal heal again. again. do you have any do you have any sense of sense of how this looks in how this looks in terms of terms of timing? >> it's a great question, timing? . >> and it's such a difficult it's a great question one. you know, in such a difficult muhammad just reference one muhammad just that transitory, which everyone was talking referenced that transit about last year period. whichever was talking inflation was about. they were hoping gonna be her that. long inflation was gonna be here amateur why we say that wrong. i don't know temporary, but why we're using transitory became the temporary, transitory big word. now, became big word. we have this now we have concept of the soft the soft landing the fed wing -- the fed will get it just will get it just right so unemployment right. so unemployment -- will increase just a nap to deal with. the inflation. i -- think this at, the end of the day, even now the feds are even now the feds backing out of the soft are breaking out of it landing term, i softly -- i think is think it's going to really going to really come down come down to to psychology. you psychology. and all of us as know, as all of us as consumers consumers say to say to ourself ourselves, do we pull do we pull back a little? back a little. you look at and you look at these long these long term term

inflation expectations, and -- they're not that and they're not high, they're not that high. catastrophic. do do we pull back we pull back a little a little on our on her spending? there's spending? whether it's the the holidays, major purchases. holidays are major purchases. or, do or do we we look at this just look at this and the and this drumbeat of bad drumbeat of -- news, whether it's, economic, political,, around the world, say this is the. time for me to hunker, down. no purchase. says, come back on, traps. if we all do that, i don't think we're going to. talk about an approach to a soft landing. it's gonna be. so nuanced which way we go. >> i i think both of think both of. you this is you this, is a complicated a complicated staff, i've been asking a lot of topic. going to questions to which it ask you a lot of questions to is not fair to which is unfair to even even know the answer. though the, answer but i but i appreciate your appreciate your help in our audience helping our audience like this. throw thank you, i appreciate. help this through. at that mohamed a. el-erian, lori bettinger, i is the scoop, appreciated. thanks for watching velshi, catch me next catch me here are next saturday and sunday morning sunday atm to 8 am to 10 am 10 pm eastern. eastern. don't forget, if you if you didn't catch the whole didn't catch the whole show, velshi is show, velshi is available as a podcast. a bill but a podcast. you can you can listen to be listen to the entire show entire show on the go, on the, go anytime. anytime, subscribe and subscribe and listen for listen for free free and where you anywhere you get your get your podcasts. podcasts. stay stay right where you are, right where you are. the sunday show with the sunday show capehart begins now.

with jonathan capehart begins now. donald donald trump trump loves being in the loves being the center center of of attention and he's attention, and he's getting plenty of it. getting plenty of it. in and washington where there is washington, where there a new is a new january six hearing this week january six hearing this, and liz week, and liz cheney cheney there says there may be war. says there may be more. >> >> so so this year it will this hearing will not be the not be the last year we will last hearing we will see? -- >> we -- >> we don't don't anticipate anticipate that it will be the last hearing. that it will be the last >> year. >> and in in new york, new york where a new where a new lawsuit lawsuit from the state from the state ag could ag could bring down bring down trump's trump's company. company. i'll i'll talk to the talk to the man man who helped who helped trigger trigger it, it, michael michael cohen cohen. he joins. he me live. joins me live. republicans republicans reveal their reveal their agenda just agenda just weeks weeks before the before the midterms. midterms. white house white house senior secret advisor, adviser keisha lance keisha lance bottoms, the bottoms reacts in an reoxygenates goes of exclusive interview. interview. and, chef and chef jose andreas and congressman jim josé andrés and congressman jim -- mcgovern will preview -- on food will have insecurity and the united states. was a coverage on food shaft coming to insecurity -- us live from hurricane ravaged with the chef coming from puerto rico. hurricane ravaged i'm jonathan