with the florida trip off, the president not expected to travel this week when aides hope to get him back on the road soon enough. "the washington post," tyler pager, thank you for joining us this morning, and thanks to all of you for getting up way too early on this monday morning. stick around for "morning joe," starts right now. we have been very clear with the russians publicly as well as privately to stop the loose talk about nuclear weapons. >> privately, the united states that be in communication with the kremlin about these threats of nuclear war? >> yes, it's very important that moscow hear from us and know from us that the consequences would be horrific. >> well, let me say it plainly, if russia crosses this line, there will be catastrophic consequences for russia. the united states will respond decisively. >> the u.s. issues a stern warning as vladimir putin

intensifies his nuclear rhetoric amid a faltering military campaign in ukraine. the biden administration says it has told russia privately exactly what the consequences would be for using a nuclear weapon. we'll have the very latest on that. plus, a head turning new revelation concerning the attack on the capitol. what a former adviser to the january 6th committee says about a phone call between the trump white house and a rioter while the attack was underway. also this morning, tropical storm ian has just strengthened into a category 1 hurricane as it continues its track toward cuba and florida. we're watching that. and it is just six weeks until voters decide the balance of power in congress. we'll tell you where things stand this morning and what's in play. good morning and welcome to "morning joe," it's monday, september 26th. we begin with the new polling from the "new york times" that shows 54% believe donald trump

threatened american democracy when he left office. 51% believe he committed serious federal crimes, and 53% hold an unfavorable view of the former president. it is the -- if the next presidential election were held today, 45% would support joe biden. 42%, donald trump. and joe, these numbers in line with a lot of polls that we have been looking at lately over the past couple of weeks. that coupled with how some voters are feeling about different changes in policy, abortion, and the migrants issue, might be convoluting things for republicans. >> i think it's taking an election year that was supposed to be easy for the republicans, and it's making so many races tight. we do these generic ballot tests, and usually if they're tied that's good news for republicans. they usually out perform by 3 or

4% of the generic ballot. you have to look at the individual races, the polling, whether it's in wisconsin, pennsylvania, whether it's in michigan, whether it's in georgia, in so many of the races, the senate races or gubernatorial races, they are really tight, and so i really think whether you're talking about arizona where masters is supposed to be way behind or pennsylvania where fedderman is supposed to be way ahead, looking at georgia where the polls go back and forth. if you're looking at any of the states, ron johnson in ohio. those races are going to be tight. most likely unless something changes we're going to be staying up late on election night, trying to figure out who's in control of the united states senate again. it is tight. it will say, though, more interesting this "washington post" poll actually seemed to lean more towards republicans than the four or five polls we saw over the past week or so.

the through line through all of those polls, a majority of americans think donald trump committed a crime. the majority of americans hold an unfavorable view of him. in several polls, his approval ratings dipping down into the mid- to low 30s. all of these investigations, all of the potential crimes he committed, they are building up. here's a "washington post" poll again. i don't know if they sampled a republicans war. i don't know exactly what happened in this poll. you look at the trend line, it's still positive for republicans. this leans more toward republicans in recent polls, which means absolutely nothing. if you talk to anyone who understands politics in 2022, we have no idea actually what group of americans are going to vote, and the big questions are, are you going to have voters that go

out, and are they going to be voting economics, and is that what's going to motivate them primarily? is it going to be roe being overturned. based on that we're going to figure out what electorate we have. if it looks like kansas, that's great news for republicans or for democrats. but right now, you still have to say advantage gop. >> and we're going to have john heilemann on next hour. he's just coming off a really strong interview with vice president kamala harris, and i point that out only because certain issues have definitely given democrats their voice and abortion is one of them. we'll be talking a lot more about this. by the way, in a few interview over the weekend, republican congresswoman liz cheney said she will do whatever it takes to keep former president donald trump from taking back the white house in 2024. and that includes campaigning for democrats and leaving the republican party if necessary. >> we cannot afford to be a society where we're tearing each

other apart. that's what our adversaries want us to be doing. >> right. >> think about the fact that what the leaders of the chinese communist party say about american democracy. you know, they say our elections can't really -- they don't work, they don't reflect the will of the people. those are the same things donald trump says about our democratic process. and we have an obligation to make sure, and i certainly will do whatever it takes to make sure donald trump isn't anywhere close to the oval office again. [ applause ]. >> and last thing on this, and if that means, if you determine between now and whatever point that the best way for you to keep him from winning the presidency again is for you to seek it yourself, you're holding open the possibility? >> i will do whatever it takes to make sure he's never near the white house again.

>> in this election, you have to vote for the person who actually believes in democracy, and that is just crucial because if we elect election deniers, if we elect people who are not going to certify results or try to steal elections, then we really are putting the republic at risk. >> i'm going to ask you will you remain a republican regardless of what happens in the next election. >> i'm going to make sure donald trump is not the nominee, if he is the nominee, i won't be a republican. >> this is the decision that donald trump has given anybody who has a commitment to this country, and to their party. liz cheney is as republican as it gets. >> right. >> and may have to leave the party. her answer is clear, she'll do whatever it takes. if she could spoil it for him, she would do it. she would do whatever it takes because she sees him as that

much of a threat to democracy. what did you think of that. >> here you have a person, this is a perfect litmus test for conservatism in the trump era. it doesn't matter how conservative you are, what you have done your entire career. politics is not about ideas. >> exactly. >> it's not about ideology. it's not about a belief system of governing, it's unfortunately for the republican party right now in, you know, whether it's 30, 40, 50, 60% of the republican party based on the polls, it's just about one person. it's a personality cult, and as she said, you've got a majority of the republican party right now run by election deniers. i certainly understand there's a huge difference between republicans in the united states senate right now and republicans in the united states house. that will make people angry

watching this. there are different gradations. some republicans are trying to fool themselves into believing that trump is going to leave, and you know, let's just keep electing these people even if they're election deniers or not. liz cheney believes it's no longer about liberal versus conservative, republican versus democrat, it's about whether you support western democracy, free elections or whether you support an ill liberal form of democracy. at this stage now, we have people going out actively trying to take control of the conservative movement, the republican party who are saying liberal democracy doesn't work. they want to move to what orban is doing. they want to move more towards what putin is doing. they want to move master's degree -- toward what putin is

doing, they think western democracy has been too corrupting. it's really bizarre that they're actually admitting this out loud, and they are. >> that's the trump issue. and that used to be in itself an issue, whether you believe in democracy or not, or whether that's something you don't want to consider in your reality, and you're going to stick with trump. listen, it's a tall order for democrats to do extremely well in these midterms. we know that. we know that historically because of what happens in this type of midterm. but there are two issues that are creeping into this that might even distract a person who is committed to trump to the end and that would be abortion, and maybe even this migrant issue. i think it might backfire. i think it might just cut most people the wrong way. it's not christian. it's not right. it's inhumane. there are people who just will

know that was wrong, and will feel something about it, and then the hispanic voters. >> i think what you're talking about obviously is where ron desantis takes people. >> and other republicans. >> specifically, ron desantis gets people who have fled a communist dictatorship. lies to them. sends them to an island in the northeast, and apparently it seems lies to them, have people lie to them to do it, and this is another great example of republicans overreaching. everything they're doing, they're overreaching. obviously the supreme court is not making these calculations. if the supreme court had upheld the mississippi case which places a ban at 15 weeks. a majority of americans would be with them. they go all the way, and now we see 10-year-old girls fleeing state of ohio to have an abortion because they were raped and you have the most horrible scenarios being laid out. women who are, you know, could die on the operating table if

republicans get their way in texas. if the attorney general gets his way. so same with immigration. democrats have badly mishandled the southern border over the past several years. horribly. the issue doesn't seem to matter at all. it matters to most americans. most americans believer if you come into america, you need to come in legally. that's where most americans are. if that shocks you, you need to wake up. they take that issue which should be a huge win for them, and they over reach by taking people who are fleeing a communist tyranny in venezuela coming up to the united states and then treating them like political pawns. these poor hungry refugees from a communist country. it is the antithesis. if you don't believe me, go to the google machine, it's the antithesis of everything ronald

reagan believed, everything ronald reagan did, everything ronald reagan would have done. in all of these cases, mika, and we see it with liz cheney. we see the through line here, you have a party that's not conservative. you have a party that's not following edmond burke and kirk and ronald reagan and margaret thatcher's view of conservatism. you have radicals who are following, going down the path of where orban is, where putin is, and it's frightening. liz cheney said, she's a conservative but it comes down to do you support western democracy, do you support free elections or are you on the other side. for liz cheney it's pretty simple. let's jump to our major news out of russia and ukraine this morning. four ukrainian regions in the country's east are holding controversial referendums on whether to join russia. the voting has been condemned as

a sham by ukraine and its western allies, including the u.s. russia's state news agency reported that for safety reasons, election officials are taking ballots to people's homes and that voting in person is only allowed on the last day, which is tomorrow. on friday, nato secretary general said nato will step up support for ukraine adding that russia would use the compromised voting results as a way to escalate the war in ukraine. the voting process has raised fears russia could incorporate the four areas and then portray attacks to retake them as an attack on russia itself. let's bring in columnist and associate editor for the "washington post," david ignatius, and u.s. national editor and columnist at "the financial times," ed luce. >> you can see it on the op-ed pages of the "new york times,"

"the washington post," "the financial times" "wall street journal." everybody had the same concern, the same fear, and that is how does putin respond. we're going to be reading all of this in our must read opinion pages in a couple of blocks. putin's threat to use nuclear weapons must be received soberly. he has lost hardware, soldiers, ground and face. he is cornered and escalating, increasing the odds of mistaken miscalculation. great care is now needed, and here's ross from yesterday's "times," just as reagan's horror of nuclear war turned out to be crucial to his legacy, the policies of joe biden so far successful will be judged not only what they achieve for the embattled ukrainians but the peace of the entire world. ross, also, like david brooks yesterday, like maureen dowd

yesterday, like peggy and the "wall street journal." ed as well in his "financial times" piece concerned about a cornered putin. what's your take, david? what should we be looking at? >> so first, i share entirely the feeling that as putin becomes more cornered he becomes more dangerous. he has taken this conflict now into a genuine nuclear confrontation in which he is threatening that if russia is pushed back against the wall, if it feels its territory is threatened, it may use all weapons, very specifically implying that that would include nuclear weapons. the idea that they're going to be transformed into part of russia by these refrenda is outrageous, condemned around the

world, if that was deemed russian territory for the ukrainians to continue fighting, to continue the war is an attack on russia to which they might respond by whatever means they have available, all weapons as putin put it. there's been deep thinking within the biden administration about how to respond. we heard jack sullivan, national security adviser over the weekend, and other officials talking about this, being more specific about the private messages they say they have been delivering to moscow, that if you use these weapons, if you escalate this war, there will be catastrophic consequences for russia, for its armed forces in ukraine. not specifying what those catastrophic consequences would be. my own view is they would not probably be nuclear weapons. we would respond with devastating conventional weapons. try to keep the nuclear line as limited as possible.

but devastating consequences for an army that's already on the run in ukraine. so just in some. we are in different phases of this war now. it's especially dangerous. it's one that leads, i think, sensible people to think how will this war end. what are creative ways. kennedy and the cuban missile crisis, firmness that russian missiles will not be in cuba 60 years old, and creativity about how to solve this without a nuclear confrontation. >> to david's point, ed luce, believe your eyes, russia is losing badly. i question that though because of the atrocities that we're seeing. the threat of a nuclear war, i mean, we're dealing with -- ukraine is dealing with an enemy that's crazy and when you're crazy, you'll do anything, so how can you be sure?

>> i think the more crazy putin sounds and wants us to believe he's capable of being the more evidence that he's doing badly and the conventional military front on the ground. his desperation is inversely related to how well russia is doing militarily, and it's doing very badly militarily. the sham referendums we're seeing in these four ukrainian regions, you know, conducted while fighting is going on, around potential voters in referendums with armed russian soldiers coming to your home and saying would you like to vote yes or no, which is illegal, not a democratic exercise but another set of the nuclear

escalation that david was just talking about because these referendums would under russian law incorporate these four regions into russia, and therefore make an attack on them, an attack on russia, which of course would trigger the russian nuclear doctrine that any existential threat to the russian regime could justify the use of nuclear weapons, so that's what's scary about this. nobody believes, even kazakhstan, you know a neighbor to russia, traditionally an ally to russia, and putin bailed out the regime earlier this year. even kazakhstan says it won't recognize the results of this referendum. but what putin is trying to do and so far failing very badly is to frighten the west into tapering off its support for ukraine. actually what we have seen in the last few days since he has

been rattling this nuclear saber is an increase in western support for and resolve for zelenskyy's government and for ukraine's fight. but there's no doubt, mika, you're right, this was by no means over, and the 300,000 troop mobilization that putin's talking about shows he plans to escalate, but he's doing all of this precisely because russia is being humiliated on the ground. >> meanwhile, italy is on course to elect the country's first female prime minister and the first government led by the far right. since the end of world war ii. according to earlier projections, a coalition led by georgia maloney won a decisive victory. the coalition won just over 43% of the vote, which is enough to give it a comfortable parliamentary majority. reaching political consensus and

cementing a coalition, could take weeks, and a new government may only come to power in october. the vote could mark a big political shift for a pivotal european country dealing with ongoing economic and political instability. it also could strain a tight knit european alliance that has been standing with ukraine in its war with russia. >> there's a real problem. you look at berlisconi, an ally of hers, and it goes back to what i said before about forces pushing back and fighting western democracy. we've seen what's been happening in hungary the past several years, what happened in sweden, what happened in italy yesterday. you have sweden and italy, two countries that were founded on fascism. now, they're going to be running those countries.

>> joe, the victory party that has its roots in italian fascism plain and simple, the brothers of italy, it's called. georgia maloney's party, is concerning to everybody. it accompanies, as you said, this move in europe. who could think that in sweden, a party with right wing knee owe fascist roots would now be dominant in parliament. in france, the right wing parties would make such a strong showing under marie le pen. there's a populist rage sweeping across europe as it swept across america in the 2016 election. i could make two points of caution. the first is that in all the years i looked at italian political coalitions, wait and see, these tend to be unstable and fragile.

meloni is in a coalition with several others. exactly how that works out is hard for me at this point. there's some dangerous volatile pieces in that coalition. second thing as i look at europe is that now for 20 or 30 years, you've had a movement by ordinary europeans who say i'm not comfortable being governed from brussels. i don't want to give up my country. i don't want to be part of something that's super national. every time that's put to a test with voters in france, when they were asked to support the european constitution. britain left the european union, and in italy, the biggest appeal that giorgia meloni, we're

italians, to the point of saying we may not want to use euros as money. to some extent it's because the people in brussels who are part of the european union just don't listen to ordinary folks. i hate to say that. that's a part of the story we should remember. >> and so many people when you're talking about italy or sweden or britain, for so many people, the concern has to do with immigration. ed luce, i remember talking to somebody, a loyal laborite member who our debates usually politically centered around margaret thatcher. you can guess what side i was on. she and her family loathed thatcher, loathed torys, loved conservativism in britain, and i asked her before brexit, i guess you're going to be voting against brexit. are you kidding me, no, we're voting for brexit, and she said we're tired of the eu telling us how to run our economy, how to

run our immigration system. deciding who comes into our country and who doesn't come into our country. it seems to me you go back to 2015, the refugee crisis spilling out of syria. so many of the dramatic changes that have come across europe have come in part as reaction to an immigration system that allows someone to come into one eu country and go across borders of all of them. and now the concern has reached italy. >> yeah, i mean in the british case, you must remember, britain wasn't governed by brussels, at least in so far as borders were concerned because it had opted out of the agreement, the free movement of peoples across europe. britain had full control of immigration while in the european union, and immigration has gone up since then. what we've seen more

dramatically, though, particularly in the last 72 hours is that taking back control, it only really works if you know what you're doing. and the british pound is now very close to the dollar. i think the devaluation, depreciation of the pound has fallen by about 1/7 against the dollar since liz truss became prime minister three weeks ago. about 13% it's gone down. she promised to hit the ground running on day one, and she meant it literally. so the italian vote, you know, i think each country is unhappy in its own unique way. like tolstoy's unhappy families. the italian vote, there's definitely an antiimmigration to it, as there was with brexit. i think, though, there are different motives for the italian sort of far right surge

that include what we saw with brexit, that include an anti-woke agenda. giorgia meloni who does have fascist roots, she has been forced to repudiate mussolini, someone she's spoken about early in her career, she was forced to repudiate him. she is from fascist roots. and the parties that she's going to be in alliance with, including an 86-year-old and matteo salvini, the northern league head, they have, very european skeptical views, and admiration of putin. overt admiration of putin.

meloni was forced to repudiate that to make herself electable. there should be no secret here about what they really think. my concern is more for western unity against russia. it remains to be seen. >> we have a delay here ed, so i'll go ahead and jump in, ed. but thank you. you're right, there is a real concern about western unity. i think also take note of what david ignatius said, though, it seems that italian political coalitions have the stability, the staying power of the red sox bull pen which changes week to week. also something, ed, we're out of time, but we'd love to talk to you about liz truss, maybe you can come back tomorrow. it's hard to overstate the horrific economic impact that liz truss's economies have had

on the world. >> check out ed's piece, i don't think he minces words. >> ed luce and david ignatius, thank you very much for being on this morning. a lot going on. still ahead on "morning joe," five members of the oath keepers are heading to trial this week. we'll take a look at what we may learn about the plotting behind january 6th. plus a former staffer is coming out with a book, that claims to be a behind the scenes look at the panel's work and comes as a surprise to members of the committee. we'll have the new reporting. also ahead, a hurricane watch issued for parents of florida's west coast, including tampa bay. we'll have the latest on the path of hurricane ian and a check on the morning papers including a new investigation into south dakota governor christie noam's use of a state-owned airplane.

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35 past the hour, we could learn new information this week about donald trump's attempts to subvert the 2020 presidential election results. five members of the oath keepers, including the group's leader, stewart rhodes are facing charges of seditious conspiracy. their trial will get underway tomorrow with jury selection and opening statements that could begin as early as thursday. "the washington post" notes prosecutors plan to call as many as 40 witnesses over a projected five-week span. they will draw from 800 statements by those charged, and also summarize tens of thousands

of messages, video footage, and phone calls leading up to the january 6th attack on the capitol. despite nearly 900 arrests and hundreds of convictions relates to the capitol assault, rhodes and his four codefendants are the first to stand trial on seditious conspiracy. it marks the biggest test yet in the justice department's efforts to hold rioters accountable. we'll be following that. a former adviser to the january 6th committee is releasing a book billed as a behind the scenes look at the committee's work. denver riggleman, a former republican congressman is set to publish his book on tuesday against the wishes of the committee, which has tried to keep its sources and methods under wraps. the announcement came ahead of the appearance that he had on '60 minutes" where he claimed the committee is aware of a call

that was placed from the white house to a rioter on the capitol grounds on january 6th. it's not clear who placed the call or whether they were in a position of authority. >> you get a real ah-ha moment when you see that the white house switchboard had connected to a rioter's phone when it's happening. that's a pretty big ah-ha moment. >> wait a minute, someone in the white house was calling one of the rioters while the riot was going on. >> on january 6th, absolutely. >> and you know who both ends of that call are. >> i only know one end of the call. i don't know the white house end, which i believe is more important. >> yesterday on "meet the press," january 6th committee member jamie raskin confirmed that call. >> apparently says a call came from inside the white house. how hard have you guys tried to track down who that was. do you have an idea of who that was? >> i can't say anything specific about that particular call but we are aware of it. >> a spokesperson for the

committee released a statement on riggleman which reads in part, in his role on the select committee staff, he had limited knowledge of the committee's investigation. he departed from the staff in april, prior to our hearings and much of our most important investigative work. he told the committee he was departing in order to help the people of ukraine in their war against russia. "the washington post" report that is when riggleman left the committee, he said at the time that he was approached about writing a book related to the committee but that it would not be published until next year. let's bring in congressional investigations reporter for the "washington post" jackie alemany, an msnbc contributor, and host of "way too early" and jonathan lemire and host of "politics nation" reverend alex sharpton. good to have you all with us. jackie, i'll start with you.

wow, this book, he decides to write it against the wishes of the committee. he claims he's going to help in ukraine. his credibility is a little bit in question here, and yet the call came from inside the house. that's one revelation that seems to be corroborated by the committee. what have you heard? >> yeah, mika, that's exactly right. we reported over the weekend that when there were rumors circulating that riggleman was going to be writing a bok about -- book about the work. subsequently he was asked again about it, and he claims he was going to be writing a book about the committee's work, but it wouldn't be published until the year's end, and now his book is coming out a day before their final block buster hearing, which is certainly suspicious, and i think raised a lot of eyebrows and upset some of the members on the committee who had previously been infuriated with

riggleman's press tour and media round he was making after his departure in political. he had an eight-month stint on the committee. his work was important but limited. there are hundreds and thousands of tips just like the one denver riggleman pointed out last night but it's a matter of whether or not investigators on the committee are able to vet those tips and confirm them. it's sort of like the work journalists do, and they don't put out that information from the committee until they feel like they have that information on a rock solid basis. i think there was some frustration that riggleman was putting out this tantalizing information without it being fully confirmed and vetted. >> yeah, jonathan lemire, a number of things happening. of course the committee is going to be having another hearing this week, and so far every single one that they've held has been riveting, and disturbing and next level actually, and the

real accountability for january 6th and maybe even some parts of the big lie are happening in this fear. with those who are ending up going to jail, and serving time for rioting at the capitol. we're taking it next level this week as we look at the issue of seditious conspiracy. as the author of the big lie, what stands out to you, with everything going on pertaining to 1/6 this week. >> let's take a step back, and remember that when these committee hearings were first announced they were greeted with skepticism, same old, rehashing what we have heard before. that's not the case at all. they have put together not only new block buster information but also in a very compelling way. these have been sort of master classes of story telling, and they have been so effective that we thought they were going to be done a month or so back, and yet here we are, with at least one more this weekend. we heard conflicting accounts from the committee as to whether this would be the last one or

not. congresswoman cheney over the weekend suggested that perhaps this would not be, though this is going to be an investigative hearing. at minimum, there would be a wrap up where they delivered the report. they also have left the door open for other hearings if more developments emerge. i think they have done a terrific job of telling the story of january 6th and shifting the focus to doj. this of course is a separate probe than what had been happening with mar-a-lago and the classified documents, although they're all connected of course in terms of perhaps donald trump's unfitness for duty, mika, but this in itself is where a lot of people believe the legal peril could really right side for donald trump, at the end of the hearings, the committee will have a blueprint, up to merrick garland after the midterms to make a decision, indictment or not, and seemingly every hearing, the argument seems to be getting stronger. >> reverend alex, between the

january 6th proceedings and all the different legal proceedings against donald trump at this point, that seems to be -- could be a full-time job for him, just waking up every morning, and finding out what's the latest, whether it's the civil lawsuit against him from the attorney general of new york or the classified documents that he took inappropriately from the white house and may have criminal proceed against him leading out of that potentially, plus january 6th, and some members saying they might vote unanimously to push this toward the doj and some criminal proceedings as well. how do you think, though, this breaks down for voters? are they hearing this? is this something democrats should see as an opportunity or let speak for itself? >> clearly from the polls that you showed earlier in the show, the majority of americans feel that democracy is being undermined. and when you wake up very

morning, you talk about the attorney general, just the average voter here in the state of new york, so multiple dollar lawsuit categorically saying how this man did in terms of defrauding banks and defrauding people that were doing business with them, and defrauding insurance companies. then the next day you have somebody that worked at the committee saying that there was a call from the white house to a rioter during the riot, notwithstanding whatever credibility questions he has. a congressman gets on television, national television yesterday and confirms such a call happens. all of this makes a lot of voters saying, wait a minute, we're talking about our democracy at stake, as that poll indicates. the problem the democrats have in addressing your question is that clearly most americans feel democracy is at stake. but are they going to be able to

drive their voters out. the same poll does not show they are overwhelmingly coming into the democratic party's arms and i think that that is the challenge that you have won the argument but can you win the turnout, and the challenges, whether they can connect the two. >> jackie alemany of the "washington post" we're going to be seeing you a lot this week. may as well book you for wednesday, thursday and friday. thank you so much for coming on this morning and setting the scene for us. a big week ahead. coming up, we'll have a look at some of the must read opinion pages this morning. plus, an update on the recovery efforts in canada after the powerful remnants of hurricane fiona slammed the country's atlantic coast. also ahead, kevin mccarthy lays out the gop agenda, if voters put republicans back in control of the house. we'll go through it and the response from the president. "morning joe" is coming right back. m the president. "morning joe" is coming right back

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. 49 past the hour. time for a look at the morning papers. the sioux city journal reports kristi noem is under investigation after she allegedly violated a law that says state-owned aircraft can only be used for state business. according to plainlocks, she has use add state owned airplane for family gatherings and to travel to events hosted by political organizations. penalties for violating the law include a $1,000 fine plus ten times the cost of travel. violators could also face a 30-day jail sentence. in pennsylvania, "the pittsburgh post gazette" reports conservative activists are

inundating offices with requests from voting, the move could slow down each county's ability to prepare for the upcome november midterms. in delaware, a federal judge has issued an injunction that bars the state from enforcing a law outlawing the manufacturing and possession of home made ghost guns. the weapons can't be traced by law enforcement officials because they don't have serial numbers. the judge wrote that without an injunction the plaintiffs would be threatened by criminal penalties should they engage in conduct protected by the second amendment, and according to to "florida today" the state has the second highest number of school-related book bans in the country. new data shows there are 600 banned books within 21 school districts in florida. the banned material most often concerns lgbtq issues or features a protagonist character

who is not white. texas is the only state that has banned more books than florida. and developing this morning, canadian officials say the trail of destruction left behind by the remnants of hurricane fiona is much worse than anything they have seen before. the storm uprooted trees and power lines and reduced many homes to a pile of rubble. at one point, nearly 500,000 customers across the atlantic provinces were without power. in response, canadian prime minister justin trudeau has cancelled his trip to japan to attend a state funeral of shinzo abe to deal with the disaster. trudeau announced he's deploying the military to help with clean up and recovery efforts. joining us now, we have the dean of the wharton school, erica james. she's the coauthor of the new book entitled "the prepared leader," emerge from any crisis

more resilient than before. it's great to have you on the show. i want to start with given the challenges many countries are facing with leadership today, why did you write this book. could that be it? >> well, unfortunately you're right, there are a number of leadership challenges and voids that we're seeing. but i wrote this book with my coauthor, lynn wooten primarily because we think there's a real opportunity for leadership now, and there's so many different circumstances requiring leadership, whether you're talking about some of the crises you had in your last segment, organizational responses to threats, the need for leadership is paramount, and i work in a business school, and we're targeting the goal of preparing the next generation of future leaders. >> and i'm curious if you address in this and have considered the concept of the leadership in the age of

disinformation. i think that has made good honest leadership difficult in a sea of many different messages that ripple across a population and often stick. >> you're bringing up a good point, and what we argue is that communication is key, whether you're in a time of crisis or not, and the information that you have regarding communication is paramount, and so one of the things that a leader has to discern is the credibility of the information they have. where the sources of information are coming from, can it be validated by other sources, getting a 360-degree of the kind of information you're presenting to the world or that you're taking in is a critical role of leadership. >> good morning, congrats on the book. it seems over the last year or so, the world has been given a vivid illustration of leadership by ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy who has been there

every day, his country under assault, he has been with his people, he hasn't fled. he's offering inspirational messages to the ukrainian citizens nightly, and at least to this point they have held firm to their resistance in the russian invasion. tell us a little bit about what you have seen from him, what kind of case study that he is, what can others learn from him? >> i would love to write this case study. he is the quintessential leader in a time of crisis. to your point, the fact that he has been present and visible, and walking the talk and not doing anything -- or he's doing everything that he's expecting his military and other civilians to do in his country. so i think there's a lot that we can learn from his ability to be a human in all of this, and to be exceptionally well prepared and exceptionally willing to engage in really hard decision making. but also put himself in the same

position. so that's ultimately what we're talking about in terms of leadership. >> hearing you say you would love to do the case study on zelenskyy leads me to a broader question that looking at your book, "prepared leaders," does the times make the leaders, did zelenskyy emerge and evolve into this hour or does the leader make the times? is it the response of leaders that kind of shape and mold how things are going? did zelenskyy's kind of strength and ability help lead ukraine to where it is not in this battle on any given day or did the situation make him grow and evolve into it? >> i think both are true. one of the things that we argue in the book, you never know where leadership is going to

come from. it's not always the person with the highest title, the ceo, the president, and so we have to be prepared for leadership to emerge from all places within a society, within an organization, and what we see with zelenskyy, clearly he had some leadership skills. right. but we also saw some new behaviors. he learned things through this process that make him an even more credible, more influential leader, so i think your question is that both are true. the circumstances are made zelenskyy, and i think zelenskyy, his behavior and how he's engaging through this is demonstrating a type of power and expertise and influence. >> and dean james, we're squeezed for time, but i'm curious, you also have the attributes, factors that cause a leader to fail, really quickly, what are they? >> some of them are sort of interpersonal biases that allow us not to understand and take

information in credibly. another is not having the right kind of team and trusting high quality trusting relationships surrounding you as you're going through the fire. those are two critical areas that if we don't have those things, you're not going to be a successful leader in a time of crisis. >> the new book is "the prepared leader," emerge from any crisis more resilient than before. dean of the wharton school, erika james, great to have you on, congratulations on the book, come back. we appreciate it. conservative canvassing groups with going door to door, searching for proof of fraud in the 2020 election. we'll take a closer look at some officials in washington state are calling voter intimidation. "morning joe" will be right back. r intimidation "morning joe" will be right back

the most important obligation not just elected

officials have but every single american is to do your part to make sure the people who believe in what the election deniers are saying, the people who would tear the republic down, don't get power. >> it is the top of the hour with the midterms just six weeks away. republican congresswoman liz cheney is urging voters to reject election deniers saying she will do whatever it takes to prevent donald trump from being reelected. we're going to go through the latest numbers out this morning. welcome back to "morning joe." it is monday, september 26th. jonathan lemire, reverend al sharpton still with us this morning, and joining the conversation we have nbc news national affairs analyst and executive editor of "the recount" john heilemann joins us this hour. good to have you on board this morning. >> great to have all of you on board. john, let me ask you about the state of play. we saw a series of polls that

showed biden mid-50s, some had trump in the low 30s. >> mid-40s, not mid-50s. >> i'm sorry, mid-40s. trump in the mid-30s. that match up looked okay. "washington post" poll out yesterday seemed to go a bit more the republicans' way with biden's approval rating i think at 39. but for the most part, he's been in the mid 40s. you've seen the generic ballot test split down the middle. i'm curious, though, do you think we're looking at political hand-to-hand combat, whether you're talking about arizona, whether you're talking about wisconsin, whether you're talking, i mean, all of these states at the end of the day, at least in the senate races, it looks like almost every single one of them up for grabs. it could go either way still. >> yeah, i think that's right. joe, i mean, look, what are the undeniable facts. the undeniable fact is joe biden

is better off now that it's been about a year. is he in a great position, not great, but a better position than he was a year ago. the democrats are in a better position than they were a year ago. those two things aren't unconnected, and i think everybody concedes for a variety of reasons which we could go into more, ranging from the roe v. wade backlash to biden's legislative wins to trump's front and centerness, in a national discussion, everyone kind of concedes democrats have a fighting chance now to hold the house. a fighting chance. they're not likely to hold the house. they have a fighting chance. some of the forecasts range from 1 in 4 to 1 in 3. that's a good position to be fighting from. i think you're right about the senate. we've talked endlessly, even with weak trump-backed

candidate, a lot of those races are super close right now, and it's going to be political hand-to-hand combat. there are polls that show herschel walker overraphael warnock. pennsylvania is going to be close all the way down to the wire. i think, you know, if you ask for the consensus view, democrats and republicans and people really following this closely would say democrats favored slightly to hold and maybe pick up a seat or two in the senate. and as i said before, democrats with a one in four or one in three chance of holding the house. republicans likely to take it. the one thing no one talks about is the right-of-way. no one things republicans are going to get a lot of seats in the house of representatives. that has leveled out. >> i'm curious reverend al, with every election, turnout matters the most. especially in midterm when you have less voters than

presidential elections. we understand that because of the roe decision, roe being overturned, we understand that women seem to be more motivated to register and vote than ever before based on reporting over the past month or so. based on surveys a lot of women seem more motivated than they were six months ago. i'm curious about the democratic base. i'm curious about, again, the concern that we've heard from democrats whether you're talking about black democrats, whether you're talking about hispanic democrats, whether you're talking about democrats who have traditionally been the most loyal voters for the party, who seem to slip, seem to move more towards republicans. what's the state of play right now for the democratic base? >> i still am very concerned about the energy in the base. as you know, i travel a lot, and as i talked to people on the ground in churches, even

activists, i'm not feeling the kind of energy that would generate a turnout like we saw in 2020. i think that clearly the majority of americans lean toward a lot of the policies, but that does not mean there is going to be this, in my opinion, the needed turnout, particularly in states that john just talked about, pennsylvania, georgia, and other states. you know, it's one thing, you know, when i was younger, if you call somebody in high school for a date and you had to convince them to come and date, it's another thing when all you do is go to voice mail. we're getting voice mail in too many places. we're not getting people picking election day. >> i couldn't imagine you had too much in the way of heavy persuading people to go on dates with you. >> we'll talk about that another time. >> that will be off camera.

>> that connection to james brown. >> what woman wouldn't want to hang on with rev. >> can we move on. >> back to the moment. yes, democrats in the last two days agree with john, and the rev have said, they think there's a shot at the house. they don't really expect it. certainly there's no talk of a huge republican majority. it might be a few seats. the senate is very much up in play. some republicans are actually feeling better about it than they did a month ago, particularly they're looking at a couple of states in particular. they think that in georgia, they're encouraged that herschel walker has closed the gap on raphael warnock, and the governor's race where stacey abrams is down several points to governor kemp, and they're wondering how the two races play play together, and pennsylvania where john fetterman, there are concerns about his health after the stroke that he suffered earlier this year. you know, dr. oz's campaign has

been charitably a dumpster fire but he has a voided a terrible gaffe. it's going to be a senior white house official said they think right now it's 50/50. that would be good enough to keep the senate. they're nervous. taking nothing for granted. >> john heilemann, there's one galvanizing issue, and that would be abortion. for yesterday's season premiere of "the circus" you spoke with vice president kamala harris about the overturning of roe v. wade. let's take a look at a portion of that interview. >> the right of people in our country to have the freedom to make a decision about whether they start a family, about their own body, about who they love, all humans are entitled to certain freedoms. and they should be protected. >> there's a backlash, the stripping away of roe v. wade, and we saw it in kansas.

a political earthquake, right, democrats, they want to make an argument about republicans being extreme party in general. what it feels like is part of your rhetoric has been kind of to stitch all of that together, reproductive health really matters but this is actually a perfect window into a republican party that's extreme across the board. >> we're seeing a pattern here. you can see from the same states and places where you're seeing an attack on women's reproductive freedoms, an attack on voting rights, lgbtq rights, we're going backwards. republican leaders are trying to get a national ban on abortion, which includes criminalizing doctors, nurses with up to five years in prison. are you kidding me. >> so it's so interesting, joe, seeing her on this topic because obviously kamala harris has stood out in years past as a senator, especially during hearings when she's grilling

someone. she seems extremely, is extremely skilled because she's a litigator, she's a lawyer. she was attorney general, and then you add an issue like this to it, and she's found her voice. it's her comfort zone. she's in the pocket here with this. it means so much to her personally. it means so much to women in general. it's the bottom line. we've lost our rights that we've had for 50 years. >> it is really surprising, john, over the past several months. i guess not surprising, you would expect this sort of reaction to the overturning of a fundamental right. but i can't remember an issue galvanizing people more than this issue. and of course the election is not for another month or so. so we'll see exactly how galvanized people are, whether they're galvanized enough to get to the polls, but i always

remember after september 15th, talking about wall street bailouts and massive packages and "newsweek" had the cover, are we socialists now. and katty kay was on the show, she laughed, she said, you americans would make the worst socialists. because you define yourself by your work. i never forgot that. you know something else we're probably pretty bad at, having rights for 50 years taken away and sitting back and doing nothing. you think about it, even pro life women i've talked to that consider themselves pro life their entire life, so shocked by this decision, saying, wait a second, you mean the federal government just took this guaranteed constitutional right away from me that i had my entire life. it just doesn't happen in

america except, well, it just did. >> yeah, and look, i mean, this is what we went out on the first episode back for our full run of "the circus" to look at it, just what the political implications were. people talked about it in a loose way. it's like, we have seen this data, or the rev was talk about the parts of the democratic base not being as energized as he would like to see. the democratic base, i'll tell you who is energized. women. women in the democratic party, and women outside the democratic party, independent women, some liberal republican women are energized. numbers in state by state of voter registrations coming in, new registrants pouring into the system in a lot of battle ground states who are overwhelmingly women, and overwhelmingly motivated by this issue have up

ended, what's the main factor that has made democratic prospects better, it's this. and, i think, you know, you're right. there's no precedent for a fundamental, personal, civil human rights like the right to an abortion that has been -- built an entire health care system around it. built an entire legal infrastructure and a set of expectations around it. over 50 years, no one knew what it would be like, what would happen if you took it away. this is uncharted territory, and what we're seeing is people don't like it. you know, talking to gretchen whitmer in michigan, a race that has been totally transformed, gretchen whitner in a neck in neck race, now ahead by double digits in the michigan governor's race. she pointed out this is the issue that's made it happen. she put it front and strrks

-- center. she got that on the ballot. the coalition driving her to the double digit lead is women of every age, every partisan background a bunch of men, should have a stake also. i see fathers and unmarried men who are joining this coalition for me too. and you know, that is, it turns out if this race does turn out to be in the midterms across the board, turns out to be better for democrats, i think we'll look back on this and say this was roe's revenge in some ways. people talk about rovember, we can talk about kamala harris. joe biden is not super comfortable talking about abortion though he's for abortion rights. she's very comfortable talking about it, and she has been just banging on this very effectively i would say over the course of the last three or four months.

>> absolutely. i think she came out at the beginning of this saying republicans just don't understand how a woman's body works, and that went viral, and it's slightly true. joining us now, democratic senator joe manchin of west virginia. he's chairman of the senate energy committee. it's great to have you on the show this morning. i know you have a lot going on, but i'm just curious first how you think this issue impacts voters in your state? >> first of all, it's good to be with you two. i haven't been with you all for a long time. i appreciate you all allowing me back and visiting with you. i hope you're doing well. i think when you saw the kansas, i talked to some of my colleagues, especially from kansas, and they were surprised. they were surprised that it was overwhelmingly a real wake up call. you know, myself being pro life, we just, you know, the radicalism of how they're treating this is unbelievable,

and i believe incest, rape, life of the mother should be exceptions and this and that and everything, but i'll tell you, they're going pretty far on this, and i think it's going to be a wake up call they're very active, the people that are active. i think there's a silent majority out there there are saying wait a minute now, that's my decision, i think, more so than maybe yours. >> joe, let me ask you about that. you talk about the radicalism certainly in the states, and it's really surprising how far so many state legislatures are going. i'm curious about the democratic house and senate. why couldn't they just pass a simple bill that would codify roe. and keep it at that instead of going so far beyond that. because it seems to me

politically that would be the best play for democrats, and well, you know, they could say that they wanted to have expansive abortion rights, but they don't have the votes for that, and that's not where america is. if you look at the polls, it's not where america is. they wouldn't support that democratic bill. just a straight out codifying of roe or even the mississippi decision, the mississippi law would get a majority of americans support. why can't democrats do that? >> i thought that's exactly what would happen. i know my friend tim kaine was working on that and trying to find a pathway forward in a bipartisan way. and it hasn't come to fruition. i don't know why. i can't tell you that. i have been tied up with a few other things right now. i think that was by far the most prudent thing to do with the country being, you know, i keep telling people it's not the country that's divided, mika and

joe, it's washington that's divides, which side are you on. you should be on one side. >> regardless of whether you're pro life, whether you're pro choice, however you identify yourself, the numbers are the numbers and the majority of americans support abortion rights through the first trimester. >> 50 years of precedented law would have been the prudent thing to do to try to calm things down. we've learned how to navigate that. we've accepted what it is, and i always felt the precedent of law, and was led to believe that's exactly what would happen, but it didn't, so congress will have to take a stand sooner or later on this. >> to get your vote on the inflation act, promises were made about reforming the permitting process for energy projects. it's caused a big fuss in

washington right now in the democratic party. what's going on? how's it going to end? >> let me go book and take you how all of this got started. after bbb, after that was settled and nothing happened, i couldn't get there. i tried. looked at it every way i could, and i couldn't april, we have a horrific war, putin uses energy as a weapon. we are not energy independent in our nation. you should be, if you're going to be the super power of the world, you should be energy indemnity, and we also can be a leader in the world as being investing into the cleaner technologies, and basically as we said walk and chew gum at the same time. so in april, i told majority leader schumer, we need to do something with energy, chuck, because we're in serious problems, and it's getting worse and worse, and our friends in new york is going to pay the consequences, and globally

before we're done. putin should not be able to dictate the policies of energy, definitely until the united states of america, so chuck said, well, joe, you're chairman of energy, why don't you see what you can do. chuck, i'm not sure that my caucus and anybody would like us, i think it has to be a balanced approach. those that want decarbonizing, all of us should be working towards decarbonizing. there's different variations of the definition. my definition is using more fossil fuels in the united states of america, cleaner than anywhere in the world, and replacing the dirtiest fuels. and when our country went over and started saying, well, let's go over and talk to venezuela, iran. venezuela produces the absolute dirtiest fuel with no oversight for environment, and then uch iran, the most prolific terror support in the world. we're going to give money. what we wouldn't do for ourselves. people went crazy, and i said enough is enough. we started writing the bill in

april, very quiet because i didn't want people getting all worked up about it, and then something wouldn't happen. that's why it was kept quiet, and when it finally got to june and july, and this thing started getting worse in europe, chuck and i talked, and he said i think we need to do something. i said, well, we've got a good piece of legislation. permitting was always in this. so you both understand. permitting is always in it. why should the united states of america be basically at five to ten years or longer to get any anything built. any type of pipelines transmission lines, whether it be for fossil or whether it be for clean fuels, and wind and solar. you've got to have the infrastructure and takes us too long. most of the developed nations, especially our neighbors of canada and even australia who we

rely on quite a bit for a lot of these minerals, they're one to three years. why is a developed nation understanding how they can process faster, get it to market faster and meet the challenges. that's all we've tried to do, and that's what i said. that's what we're working on right now. we've got a great opportunity, and this is something that i have been working 12 years with my republican colleagues, 12 years as, he joe, we have to permit reform to build things and get things done. it's horrible in america that we string things out for five, ten, and even longer, sometimes 12 and 15 years before we get a permit to do anything. by then you've missed the market, prices are two or three times higher. everyone agreed and my republican colleagues and my friend, shelley moore capito from west virginia, we're very good friends, and they put legislation out, a messaging bill that 46 republican senators support.

they cosponsored it. if there's 47 republican senators that said we need to have permitting reform, and we have a majority of the democrats right now, don't you think it would be pretty easy for us to move forward. that's what we're hoping for will happen this week. >> senator, you look at what barack obama used to say about energy. a guy who's not seen as right wing conservative, he always talked about using the all of the above approach, that as we're making our transition towards an economy run on clean energy, on green energy, that you have to look at everything including fossil fuels. including nuclear everything. all of the above approach. but at the start of this war, i spoke to people across europe. spoke to people across the world, and kept saying, what do

we need to do. long-term, what to we need to do, and they would all go back to the same thing, and i know this will surprise people. this may sound boring and money -- mundane to people at home talking about security permits. itst not, it's a national security issue. i had top democrats in the diplomatic core saying you have got to start fast tracking l and g facilities. you have got to start fast tracking permitting processes so we don't have to depend on what the saudis decide they're going to do based on how we treat them diplomatically. we don't have to depend on how the russians are going to react to something we do in trying to defend freedom across the globe. it's the same conversation i have had with people about nuclear energy for 25 years. they have been saying we got to build more nuclear facilities. we can't build nuclear

facilities because the permitting process is so bad, it's cost prohibitive and that's the greenest technology there is out there right now. no carbon footprint, no nothing, and you're right, we're going to the dirtiest oil in the world, the dirtiest producers of oil in the world, the biggest dictators in the world instead of doing it here, and i just don't understand why that's smart for national security and why that's a good move long-term for our environment. >> this is a ten-year pass. if you want to reduce inflation. if you want to basically get lower gas prices at the pump, lower energy prices at your home, you better produce more product. you better put more product in the line. that's what we need to do. we do it cleaner and better than any place in the world, and we can do it better and cleaner than what we're doing today. we know we can. and this is what we're pushing for. the bottom line is that you

can't replace something because i don't like coal, i don't like gas, i don't like oil. okay. the bottom line is we do it better. the rest of the world is using it more than ever before and we need to help our allies, don't you think by doing it better and cleaner, it's helping the environment also, and if you put more product in the market, don't you think the prices will come down if you are independent and basically we are secured as a nation. you cannot remain the super power of the world if you don't have energy independence. it doesn't work. if you're relying on the rest of the world to produce the energy for you that you won't do yourself and your allies are looking at how you're going to help me, you won't help yourself, this is one time, joe, this is a time in history, it's a moment of time that we have never been able to get democrats who truly voted for permitting reform are willing to do it now because there's something in it for everybody. they're willing to do it, and our republicans have always

wanted it for the last 12 years i've worked with them, and this is a bill that basically parallels what we're doing. don't you think we can get 60 senators that will vote for this tomorrow or wednesday and move this forward. and they talked about the mountain valley pipeline because it's coming. most of the fuel purchased is under west virginia, western pennsylvania, ohio, but the bottom line is there is not another project in the united states of america that can put this much energy in the market within six months. out of 303 miles of the pipeline, joe, 283 is complete. you only need 20 more miles, to complete it. then it's going to put 2 million cubic feet a day in the market. that will back fill all the shortages in america, bring down the prices in home and utility bills and give us enough energy to help with l and g to back

fill in europe. why wouldn't we do that? >> another story we'll be watching this week as the vote plays out. senator joe manchin, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. we appreciate it. >> and, you know, two things can be true, we always say, at the same time, you can believe, as i do, that the climate crisis is upon us. it's been upon us and it's one of the grave challenges we face in the coming years. i believe that. and at the same time you can also believe that we need to move smart. we need to move strategically towards energy independence. towards clean energy, towards green energy, and do it in a way, where, again, we're not relying on venezuela. we're not relying on the saudis. we're not relying on the russians. >> iran. >> we're not relying on iran. it's absolutely mind boggling

that when this crisis first erupted, we don't want to do anything at home, but hey, let's talk to iran. venezuela, really? >> yeah. >> that, again, as joe said, that's -- you're talking about dirtier fossil fuel. i know for many people whose life is focused on climate change, and thank you for your service to this country and the world, there's an absolutist view. and i understand that an absolutist view in this case, though, mika. >> we need realism. >> right now, that has to be balanced with cold, hard realism on the fact that you have a madman in europe that is trying to hold all of europe hostage, and the last places we want to be looking for energy when we can do it here are communist regimes in venezuela and looking

to russia. we have to be energy indemnity. we have to be able to help our allies. we can never, again, like we've been over the past 50 years, held hostage. the point of basically an energy, you know, energy gone. it's just something we have to move beyond. >> with war always looming because of it. >> right. still ahead on "morning joe," going door to door in hotly contested states searching for fraud. also ahead, for the tenth straight night, protesters take to the streets of iran. we'll get a live report from teheran from one of the few western journalists inside the repressive country. we're back in just a moment. repressive country we're back in just a moment.

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34 past the hour, the republican nominee for michigan governor tutor dixon seemed to mock the kidnapping plot against democratic governor gretchen whitmer. during two campaign events on friday, dixon made light of the high profile 2020 kidnapping conspiracy which led to criminal charges against six people including convictions for two men. >> the sad thing is that gretchen will tie your hands, put a gun to your head and ask if you're ready to talk. for someone so worried about being kidnapped, gretchen whitmer sure is good at taking bids hostage and holding it for ransom. >> the look on her face was like, oh, my gosh, this is happening. i'd rather be kidnapped by the fbi. >> whitmer's campaign condemned dixon's comments in a statement

writing quote threats of violence are no laughing matter. and the fact that tu dor dixon thinks it's a joke shows that she's absolutely unfit to lead michigan. jonathan lemire, i'm just adding this to the list of republicans who are -- they think it's cool to be cruel and nasty and to lie and to mock people for serious things. you could get a t-shirt, cool to be cruel, join the republican party. >> it does seem like the governing ethos of the gop is to own the libs. this isn't a good own. this is disturbing, cruel rhetoric. there was a kidnapping plot against governor whitmer. arrests were made, the fbi was involved. her life was in danger per authorities. that is not a laughing matter. that's not something to be joking about. mika, it continues to your point, this growing trend also not just republicans being cruel but injecting the threat of

political violence into our rhetoric that we heard from he or she is laughing about it, saying, oh, we heard from lindsey graham, senator lindsey graham in the wake of the mar-a-lago search, he predict s there could be violence. the president amplified the comments and made those of his own. authorities say not only are there threats against the fbi, they deeply worry about threats against elected officials between now, november and the aftermath of the election. mika, this kind of talk, to minimize that, only makes it worse. >> coming up -- >> mika, i just wanted to say one thing quickly, the other thing about tudor dixon, why is she loses to gretchen whitmer, unlike republicans who tried to get away from their anti-choice stances, she continues to say she thinks abortion should be banned even in cases of rape and incest. you know, you think about why

she's losing that race. that's cruel also and that's the kind of cruelty catching up with her. and is involved apparently in interesting vampire erotica, which you can look up on google, if you're interested to see. she's an interesting candidate in a lot of ways. >> i might add when ronald reagan was shot, democrats didn't act like that. i mean, you've seen brutality and cruelty on the other side, we've always said that that's not the way you behave. it's just something we shouldn't allow to be normalized. >> it's a really strange time and the things the republicans are using as political tools are really -- it's getting low. it's lower every day from migrants being boarded on to planes and misled and flown off to islands to making fun of someone having their life threatened, who are these people. coming up, why the granddaughter of the cofounder of the walt disney company says

the american dream is just a fairy tale for most disney employees. abigail disney joins us next with her new documentary. documy a kohler home generator never misses a beat. it automatically powers your entire home. and keeps your family connected. and a kohler home generator with power boost technology does it all in seconds keeping your food fresh. and everyone comfortable. a heavy duty commercial grade engine with no refueling.

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by a show of hands, how many of you have someone you know that works at disney that's on food stamps? wow. how many of you know somebody who works at disney who's slept in their car in the last couple of years? how many of you know somebody who have gone without medical care because they can't afford it? how many of you all have children? >> i am somebody who doesn't have kids. i don't have the finances to take care of a child in the way that i would like to. it's affected my ability to family plan and to look towards

my future as far as my personal life. and it's not, you know, this is not where i thought i would be at 33. >> don't cry. >> you can borrow our kids. >> nearly 100 years after her grandfather cofounded one of the most successful companies in the world, abigail disney is peeling back the curtain on the struggle millions of american workers not just at disney face every day to just live above the poverty line. abigail joins us now, along with kathleen hughes, they are co-directors and producers of the new documentary from which we played a clip. it's entitled "the american dream and other fairy tales," abigail, this really was a good start the minute that we played painting a picture of the lives

of disney employees. how many employees are we talking about, and if you could explain how this is just not a disney thing in your mind? >> yeah, yeah. well, thanks for that because that's really important. 200,000 people work for the walt disney company, it's a relatively low percentage that work on an hourly basis. i think it's around 10,000 workers if i have that right, but the folks that have been reduced to the hourly wage are really struggling to get by, and have been fighting hard with their unions and also on their own to get recognized and dignified with a living wage, and as you know, that's a problem for 40 plus percent of american workers. the way that we treat workers at the bottom of the pay spectrum is in human. >> and has been for decades really. this is not a new story. >> so kathleen, talk about, if you can, the people who are profiled and the different things that they have in common,

maybe not just at disney but at other companies you want to shed light on, the way their lives are and what never changes for them? >> well, you saw it in the clip just now, i mean, too many people are really having a hard time making ends meet. so things like feeding your children, paying your rent or even finding affordable housing, transportation, just all the basics of life have become a challenge for the workers that we met at disney, and if you read reports, it could be up to half of the workers in this country are going through the same kind of things. >> abigail, first of all, congratulations, i think it's important because all of us appreciate disney in terms of what it projects, but to go behind the curtain and see the workers that provide this is indicative of what's happening in a lot of corporate america. i know maxine waters brought you

before congress. what have you seen or heard of any kind of movement to deal with this by those at disney and/or other corporations? have you been able to see any redress of the issue? >> one of the reasons to make this film wasn't necessarily to hack away at disney necessarily but really, in fact, to take a company that people have high expectations for and hold it to a higher standard, and so it really does get under people's skin to think that it's disney. and i remember as a child the way people were treated. it wasn't always like this. the expectation was that that was a middle class job. you could raise a family on that job, and people did for many years and stayed at that company and retired securely for many years. and so we wanted to call them out because we wanted, first of all, to make human the predicament of so many other americans, but also because we want disney to do better. so the unions are getting more active, and we've actually seen

movement. one of the unions actually managed 23.50 an hour for the hotel workers in anaheim. i don't know why everybody is not shouting it from the rooftops, it's a huge victory for the union there. >> i go to process because, you know, i think about how you make things like this, whether it's a film or book or whatever it is, and you guys are working and trying to get trust with disney employees with the name disney attached. so just talk about how do you frame the contextualize, build trust, i imagine some workers are like, unhappy at disney, why would i talk to someone named disney. >> that's a pretty natural reaction, and we had to work really hard to build trust because i wouldn't have trusted me either. i did have the memory of my grandfather that i brought with me to all of those interactions and the values that i know those people share with me. that's why they came to that company. and it was pretty quick for us to make common cause through that. >> it didn't take much.

if you google abigail, she has been working for fairer tax policies for all kinds of other issues that would help working people, so that was a big bonus too. you know, when we made the film, we understood that this was not a new problem that but that as we just said, you could talk about it through the lens of the disney corporation and people might stop and listen, and the workers felt that way too. they really hoped that if they could speak out, they could start to move their own company, other companies would follow. so. >> all right, the american dream and other fairy tales is available online. abigail disney, and kathleen, thank you very much. thank you for coming on this morning. a major reflation about january 6th that someone from inside the white house was in touch with a protester as the insurrection was happening. we'll tell you who's making that claim and what the committee, the january 6th committee investigating the attack is

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with a qualifying bundle. 54 past the hour. live look at capitol hill this morning as the sun comes up over washington. we're seeing a rise in complaints across the country about conservative canvassing groups going door to door, looking for what they say is proof of voter fraud and former president donald trump's 2020 election loss. nbc news correspondent dasha burns is following this story. and joins us now with details, dasha. >> good morning. yes, canvassing cleaning up voter rolls have been knocked on doors in at least 11 states. these grassroots groups have raised concerns among election officials, civil rights group and department of justice. to learn more, we travel to the washington state where county auditors have received

complaints of canvassers becoming hostile, telling voters they work for county or state election offices even displays fake badges. mom kathlyn testy said two visitors with an aggressive tone rang her doorbell earlier this year. >> they had a clip board that had their names and information on everybody in our house. on top of that, they had the spokane county logo. >> reporter: she said they were there to make sure no one had voted fraudulently. >> they said they needed to know if everybody on their clip board actually lived here. suspicious, they exacted the county. >> they ted that is definitely not anybody from the office. >> reporter: they came too your house twice? >> yes, two weekends in a row. i felt insulted but i also felt angry like we weren't being trusted. we configure out why. >> reporter: the visits came

amid a massive door knocking effort organized by the washington voter research project. glenn morgan a conservative activist said he founded the organization last year to clean up the state's voter rolls. >> we have 350 volunteers, widespread in 39 counties, 33 of them with doorbelling teams. >> reporter: morgan said the goal is to help local auditors who run rolls in washington county but some argue this isn't helpful. in fact, they've received complaints from residents an canvassers tactics. >> one of the gentlemen would flash what a pressure described as a fake metal badge. does it seem like these people were trying to affiliated. with your office? >> people were representing themselves as either doing this for the secretary of state. or doing it for that particular county auditor's office. >> reporter: as more counties reported complaints, secretary

of state steve hobbs launched an outreach campaign to tell voters they don't need to answer canvasser's questions. >> no county government, no secretary of state office would ever go to your house to find out how you voted. or if you're a voter, we would never do that. >> we received multiple reports that some of the people who are canvassing are implying that they're with the county or secretary of state's office. what's going on there? >> i'm aware of three incidents like to across the state. and some of them are repeats of the staple story that are just circulated all the time. and every time we looked down to it, there hasn't been any merit from the overall claim. >> reporter: seattle area election officials tell nbc news that canvassers were asking residents who they voted for. a complaint to vancouver stated that a canvasser stated, quote, everyone in the building needed to fill out a form or their votes would be purged from recent elections. in spoke taken, one resident filed a police report. why is this different than

traditional canvassing? >> well, it's different because you're questioning whether or not the person that lives there has a right to vote. and that's wrong. it's a bit of voter intimidation, in my mind. >> reporter: the washington voter research project says these complaints have no basis in fact. where the group said it had found almost 2,000 suspicious voter records in thurston county auditor mary hall's team investigated. >> we went through every single record? >> reporter: were there any anomalies happening? >> not a single one. >> reporter: out of 1900. >> out of 1942. >> reporter: conservative groups have popped up in 11 states. and a new mexico effort is now the subject of a u.s. oversight committee for spreading misinformation and intimidating voters. >> this is part of the very threat of our democracy. we saw what happened on january 6th, in our nation's capitol. what this does, when you go door to door and put out a false narrative, you erode the

integrity of the elections. >> and, mika, we just learned about a week agatha kathlyn testy the woman in the piece received a letter thanking her for the participation in this, quote, very first step of trying to achieve cleaner voter rolls. kathryn told us the letters seemed like an attempt to make the harassment of her household seem legitimate. mika. >> wow, nbc news' dasha burns, thank you very much for that report. we appreciate it. thanks for being on this morning. it is the top of the third hour of "morning joe" now, jonathan lemire, reverend al sharpton and john heilemann still with us. and we'll begin this hour with new developments surrounding the january 6 attack on the capitol. new polling from "the new york times" shows 54% believe donald trump threatened american democracy when he left office. and 51% believe he committed serious federal crimes. meanwhile a former staffer --

>> can i stop you there? >> sure. >> john heilemann, d.j., put the numbers back up again. you know, it's very interesting, i talked about the polls showing 44% of americans supporting donald trump. wherever you look now, at people who believe the election was stolen, or go through the laundry list of other conspiracy theories, it seems the number is a hardfast, 35, 36, 37, 38%, obviously not enough to elect donald trump for the majority position. certainly enough to worry us. but i guess what separates us from, let's say, italy, who elected a fascist. somebody who supported benito mussolini and praised mussolini in her younger years. in a party that had fascist

roots and what you've seen in other countries. you still for most part have to get 45%, 46% part of the electorate to go along with you to run this country. 35, 36, 37% is not going to get it for donald trump. not going to get it tour the trump wing of the republican party. i'm just curious, how do you see this playing itself out, since that's the reality? 36%, 37%, 38% of americans, a lot of americans still believe in these crazy anti-democratic conspiracy theories, enough to cause problems but not enough to top democracy. how do you sort through that? >> the description of republican base, right? on the country, that's enough to get donald trump nominated in the republican party for sure. because that's the activists, the base that's most passionate.

so, i think if you talk to republican strategists including for those who would like to run for president in 2024. they all think that if donald trump is, as his is legal problems worsen, his political prospects brighten, the party rallies around him. they think the best thing for him to get him indicted and that would guarantee him a naum naes nomination in 2024. yeah the only people that would vote for donald trump in a head-to-head match jum with joe biden o kamala harris. the only other people who would vote for trump 30 odd percent who hoarse conspiracy theorists, well, then we have nothing to worry about but the problem is in our system, as you well know, there's another bunch of republicans who either don't take seriously the threat for democracy. they don't take it seriously. they write it off.

they like trump for other reasons, because he owns the lives. they like trump because they like his court picks. they like trump because they're fans of carnival workers and pathological liars. i don't know what it is. but that is the problem in a choice between a democrat like joe biden who many republicans hate, even if they don't like donald trump, they'll hold their nose, maybe, and vote for donald trump again. we don't know, again, it's one of these uncharted things, we've -- if donald trump runs again. we have never seen a republican nominee who, a., might be unindictment, and b., calls into previous election day loss, and c., built a whole house of lies where they now reside politically. so what happens in 2024, i think we would all be a lot safer if somehow donald trump didn't get the republican nomination. because once you get into that one-on-one thing, you know, is

he the favorite? no. could he win still? yeah, especially in our -- we don't have a popular vote here. we have the electoral college. so that complicates things further. so, i see your point, but i also don't think that the fact that there's a irreducible core of about a third or so who believe the conspiracy theories that that number is that small, i us the woods just yet. >> reverend, let me ask you, for someone who spent time with donald trump for decades, maybe time with his in his past life, prepolitics. what are your thoughts, when you look at the mounting legal issues that he's faced? when you look at january 6 and what the doj is investigating right now, and if you look at the top secret that he improperly, most likely, illegally took from the white house and boxed down in mar-a-lago. you look at the investigations in georgia.

you look at the investigations going on in the north. knowing donald trump over the course of time, do you think he fights those charges and runs? or do you think that it's all at this point becoming so overwhelming, coming from ohm different sides that he's got enough to worry about, as far as legal issues and not mounting another presidential campaign? >> well, when i see the mounting legal issues that he has, all of the multiple investigations and possible prosecutions, first of all, i'm not surprised. the only surprise i have in it is that the investigations went forward. because he's been getting away with a lot of stuff for years. >> yeah. >> even when he acted as a democrat, none of us felt that he was, you know, a businessman that you would want as a model of doing business in a proper way. but i think knowing donald trump, donald trump now is faced

with how does he maintain his lawyers? how does he pay for them? where's the money going to come from? and i think that means he's going to try and run. he has to fund raise. he sees his constituents as the people that will finance him going through this. backing down is not in his make-up. he's shameless. if anyone thinks he's walking around embarrassed, they are deluding themselves. he is not embarrassed. he's not ashamed of what he did. in fact, in some areas in terms of him beating people out of money, telling them you're getting a 10,000 square foot place and it ended up 5,000, he thinks that's what you do in business. i do think we're looking for him to be embarrassed or ashamed or shrink back.

i think the only characteristic that you can always predict is that he's going to always go forward and try to push the envelope for donald trump saying he's not the favorite. in his mind, he wasn't the favorite in 2016, and he won. >> right. >> he always believes that he can go forward. >> well, look what happened in 2016. it was like the one day that he could have won on a number of levels. but i agree with reverend al 1,000%. and here's the bottom line, one way out of all of his legal issues is to be president. he loves -- or maybe doesn't love, but he makes his money and builds his brand off of sort of fomenting hate and conspiracy theories and getting people riled up and angry. that's his weapon. i don't know why he would put it down now. so -- well, i think the risk is far worse. it's always there. as long as he's out there.

>> yeah, jonathan lemire, what's your latest reporting on it? as we look at these numbers again which show with his legal mounting problems, his approval rating is dropping. the number of americans, majority number of americans believe he threatened democracy on january 6. the majority of americans believe that he's committed crimes. but what's your latest reporting? >> in terms of trump world, two things that come to phrase here, two things at once. on one hand there's a growing certain that his inner circle has really shrunk in recent months. there's a handful of aides with him whether bedminster and mar-a-lago, even ivanka trump and jared kushner are largely on the outer wing of trump world at this moment. and there's a paranoia which shoe could drop. it could be the mar-a-lago case, is it what comes out of georgia. obviously, we have the lawsuits

from the attorney general of new york state. and the doj problem into january 6. that said, they read the poll numbers and they see those are not great for donald trump but others who survey the republican party show him far away as the leader in the gop. there was one last week, to trump in the state of florida, same day, the national poll dropped between the two men, the margin was 52-14, not even close. he is the guy to lose. the more that trump is in legal peril, the more the chance that the republican party will rally around him, that's what they think, anyway. they feel we don't know how the next months will play out but there's not going to be that between now and midterms, they ruled that out but there could be soon after. so, a former staffer for the committee investigating the january 6th attack on the capitol said the white house

switch board connected a call to a rioter's phone during the insurrection. meanwhile vice chair of the committee republican congresswoman liz cheney is vowing to do whatever it takes to stop former president trump from become become president again. nbc news senior washington correspondent hallie jackson has the latest. >> reporter: new fallout this morning from an explosive allegation from a former january 6 committee adviser. >> you get a real aha moment when you see that the white house switch board had connected to a rioter's phone while it's happening. >> wait a minute, someone in the white house was calling one of the rioter's while the riot was going on january 6? >> absolutely. >> reporter: former congressman riggleman who served on the committee staff telling "60 minutes" that someone in the white house placed a call to a capitol rioter but this morning, including who placed it still

not clear. but telling nbc news that mr. riggleman had limited knowledge of the investigation. and the investigation of january 6, they seem to be downplaying the significance. >> i can't say anything signature about that particular call but we're aware of it, and we're aware of lots of contact it's between tweem in the white house and people involved. >> without the advantage of the additional information we've gathered since he left the committee i think it poses a real risk to be suggesting things. >> reporter: it comes as the committee gets ready to hold its ninth public hearing on wednesday, the first since late july, focusing on trump's attempts to overturn the 2020 election. leading that committee, liz cheney, a fierce critic who says she would campaign for democrats. cheney who lost heir primary to a trump-backed challenger last month also threatening to leave the gop if mr. trump is the

party's 2024 nominee. >> i'm going to make sure donald trump, to make sure he's not the nominee. and if he is the nominee, i won't be a republican. >> nbc's hallie jackson with that report. and does the legal pressure continues to build on former president donald trump, he is increasingly embracing the radical qanon conspiracy theory movement. and it's not just online. the latest example coming over the weekend at a rally that trump held in north carolina. nbc news correspondent vaughn hillyard was at that rally, and he joins us now, so, vaughn, tell us about the rally. what did he say? what stood out to you? >> you know, it was one week ago at a rally at the end of his remarks the song started playing that folks in the crowd recognized as being identical to the qanon theme song. folks raised their fingers in the air.

some in the trump world pushed back it was not the qanon theme song despite them sounding identical. that's where the rally this weekend was telling because yet again, at the end of the rally, that same song played and fingers went in the air. and it speaks to a movement of 2017. it was very much fringe over the course of the last year now being overtly embraced by the former president himself. take a look. >> reporter: it's scenes like this when donald trump's embrace of qanon became clear. >> we will fight for america like no one has ever fought before. >> reporter: the former president in rallies over the last week closing with the song. >> and in no idea to lead our country. the music, is where we go on we go on. >> reporter: that's the title of qanon conspiracy movement theme song. and trump has posted a flurry of qanon memes on this social media account. now qanon conspiracy theories have become vast and vial length. >> i believe he has the military

behind him and he's going to be gone. >> reporter: what does that mean gone? >> he's going to go to jail for treason. will the military help donald trump with that? >> yes, that's what i believe. >> reporter: in hopes that donald trump will wage a secret battle with the military to reclaim power arresting and even executing government officials, democrats, hollywood figures and other elites. do you feel that a democratic leader should be executed? >> anybody that's treason. >> the reach of the qanon movement is enormous. and you're seeing the ideas of qanon worm their way into places like they never would have before. >> reporter: but the qanon movement have become more than names and slogans and internet rabbit holes. >> my dad thought he'd carry out martial law. >> reporter: donald trump. this 21-year-old said her father became isolated and became obsessed with qanon. >> he shot and tried to kill

everyone in the family. i thought he would have tried to kill me, too. >> reporter: on september 11th, he killed rebecca's mother, the family dog and shot her sister. she was then killed in a standoff with police who say they are investigating any specific motive yet to be determined. how was your dad before this? >> he was a totally different person. and i can say, i think i started grieving him this happened. like i started realizing that he's not the same person i grew up with. >> reporter: the once fringe movement feltered after the 2020 election, as followers baked new conspiracies. >> people don't have to be on 8chan to follow qanon. >> we the people make up q. >> we're all waiting and we're ready. >> i think there are a lot of families who were impacted by this and nobody takes it seriously. >> reporter: what would be your message to donald trump? >> i just think he should have some integrity and try to

denounce these people. >> i just want to underscore rebecca's story here sand the fact that rebecca just two weeks after her mother was killed, her sister was shot, and the family dog killed agreed to speak with us. there are families around this country who have similar stories. potentially maybe not the violence but in terms of family members that have gone down this very dark and dangerous hole, isolating themselves, paranoia, the first two folks at the trump rally that you heard to that we talked to, those are the very first two people to go on camera, not knowing that believed in whole the qanon movement. it's a dangerous dark violent path here. we're talking about execution. the mass arrests of government officials, hollywood figures, taking them to guantanamo bay and executing them. this isn't just a few people. this is folks around the country believing this movement. and the issue with donald trump's embrace is that it's now

seeping into the mainstream of the republican party. this is an entanglement of conspiracy theories here. when we hear about the deep state. and when we hear about the idea of groomers, these are extensions of the qanon conspiracy movement. and not everybody within the republican party are trump supporters. we talked to several that pushed back and said they wished donald trump would not embrace it. the elements have percolated into the last two years and seeped into the cultural war that the republican water has held on to. when you look at the rallies, wilmington, north carolina, not the biggest town in america. you still have 3,000, 4,000 people there. of course, not everybody believes in the grand conspiracy theories. at the same time, you look at the images, you go and talk to folks, there are too many that believe in this dark, dark violent path, guys. >> yeah, they go to extreme depth to show their beliefs.

vaughn hillyard, thank you very much. that was a jarring and gripping report. again, it shows the danger that cults have on vulnerable people. these are cult movements. >> yeah. and john heilemann, we were talking about before, the 37%, the 38%, it seems that trump by now embracing qanon is boiling that support down even more. and the question is, again, as he embraces qanon, as he does it overtly, he leans more, not just, let's say, swing democrats, working class democrats, independents, but even republicans, he leans even more republicans behind. i guess that's one of the most troubling things. one of the most troubling things to me he know there is not a majority way forward embracing this violent rhetoric.

embracing this violent conspiracy. and unfortunately, it leads to other conclusions that maybe he's given up on winning popular elections. popular votes, electoral counts. maybe now it is all about the violence. it all is about an insurrection. it all is in his mind about a civil war. >> yeah. i mean, totally possible, joe. i'd say two things about this, right. one in 2020, donald trump got more votes in 2020 than he got in 2016 by a lot. millions more votes, right. he still got whomped by biden in the popular vote yet he came within a few thousand votes because of electoral votes in three states. there's a lot of things that donald trump did in 2016 as we come close to 2020 could get the vote by popular majority. he's been told over and over again by strategists.

that is the path for him he couldn't in 2016, he couldn't in 2020, and he won't in 2024 win a majority vote. he has to thread the needle and string together the electoral votes and be a minority president. number one. number two, i don't think he cares about -- he wants to -- he knows the path for him forward is always about division, anger, energy. the division, the country, reducing the core of his base down but at the same time making that into a sauce of a kinds, right. he reduces it down against stronger, more virulent, more toxic environment. does donald trump try to necessarily go with it or does he not care? he sort of thinks if violence is where the energy comes from -- great. if that's the way, the path for him to keep power, or regain power, great. i don't think he cares one way

or the other to do this without violence. he'd be happy to do that. but if it's going to take violence, so be it. i think that's what you're seeing in vaughn's reporting and with his embrace of qanon. he's not focused on, oh, boy, i'm going to lose a few swing voters here. he's focused on the fact that the people at the core of his base are going to be more animated. more ginned up, more to take to the barricades to do what is necessary to try to reinstall power. that's the basis. the fact it's smaller makes it more dangerous in many ways because those are the people willing to take up arms and press the tactics that lead to civil war. >> and as vaughn pointed out that the extremes, you have a vulnerable person who gets swallowed up in these conspiracy theories can do extremely dangerous things, that poor, poor young girl. still ahead on "morning joe," a live report from inside

iran as protesting rage on for a tenth night in a row. plus, russians are fleeing their country by the thousands to avoid being drafted into the war in ukraine where a sham election is under way right now with armed election monitors. lovely. and in italy, a far right nationalist is positioned to take over that government. also ahead, while donald trump was able to confirm a record number of judges as president, new numbers show president biden is outpacing trump so far and remaking the judiciary in the process. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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26 past the hour. it is a state of emergency in florida this morning as hurricane ian strengthens in the gulf of mexico. millions of residents, especially along the state's west coast, are bracing for

impact. nbc news correspondent sam brock has the latest from tampa. >> reporter: overnight, ian now becoming a hurricane, barreling toward florida. store shelves in tampa are already empty. as concerned residents stock up on essentials like plywood to protect their windows and water to drink if ian strikes a major blow. >> i mean, we're trying to be ready. who know, it may be real bad, maybe not bad at all. if it is, we want to make sure we're ready. >> reporter: everyone is getting ready for a possible direct hit by the intense storm, projected to reach category 4 strength, powered by the golf waters after going by cuba later today and tonight. the governor of florida declaring a state of emergency for all 67 counties and activating thousands of national guardsmen. >> anticipate power outages. that is something that is likely to happen with a hurricane of this magnitude. anticipate fuel disruptions.

>> reporter: the lines at gas stations across the state are already long. emergency management officials say they're preparing for the worst. >> more than 2 million meals and more than 1 million gallons of water to be ready to be sent into impacted areas. >> i just got here. it's been -- there's no water here. >> reporter: supplies running low. as people heed the warnings. were you surprised to see empty store shelves? >> yes, i'm from chicago, this is my first year down here experiencing hurricanes. it's like people are taking it way more serious than i not. >> reporter: tampa hasn't been direct in a major hurricane in 100 years but the mayor is preparing for any possibility. you have dodged bullets in the past. what's the level of uncertainty, i guess, maybe concern that this time is going to be different. >> well, we look at it from a worst case scenario every time. again, we prepare for the worst add hope for the best. >> reporter: and that's exactly

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>> we cannot afford to be a society where we're tearing each other apart. that's what other adversaries want us to be doing. >> right. >> think about the fact that what the leades in the chinese communist party say about american democracy. they say our elections can't really -- they don't work. they don't reflect the role of people. those are the same thing donald trump says about our democratic process. and we have an obligation to make sure, and i certainly will, do whatever it takes to make sure donald trump isn't anywhere close to the oval office again. [ applause ] >> and last thing on this, if that means if you determine between now and whatever point that the best way for you to keep him from winning the presidency again is for you to seek it yourself, you're holding open the possibility? >> i will do whatever it takes

to make sure he's never near the white house. >> okay. >> in this election, you have to vote for the person who actually believes in democracy. and that is just crucial. because if we elect election deniers, if we elect people who have said they're not going to certify results or who are going to try to steal elections, then we are really putting the republic at risk. >> i'm going to ask you, will you remain a republican, regardless of what happens in the next election? >> i'm going to make sure donald trump, if the candidate, make sure he's not the nominee, and if he is a nominee, i won't be a republican. >> this is what donald trump who anybody who has a commitment to the party. liz cheney is as republican as it gets. >> right. >> and may have to leave the party -- i mean, her answer was clear she'll do whatever it takes. >> yeah. >> if a run for president makes

sense, if she could spoil it for him, she would do it. she would do whatever it takes because she sees him as that much threat to democracy. what did you think of that? >> well, here you have a person, this is a perfect litmus test for conservatism in the trump era. it doesn't matter how ideological you were, it doesn't matter what you've done your entire career. politics is not about ideas. >> exactly. >> it's not about ideology, it's not about a belief system of governing, it's for, unfortunately, for the republican party right now, in, you know, whether it's 30, 40, 50, 60% of the republican party, based on the polls, it's just about one person. it's a personality cult. and as she said, you've got a majority of the republican party right now run by election deniers. i certainly understand, there's

a huge difference between the republicans in the united states senate and the republicans in the house. i understand that will make people angry watching this but there are different gradations. and liz cheney is right. as you look out across it i think unfortunately, several republicans are trying to fool themselves into believing that, oh, trump is going to leave and, you know, let's just keep electing these people even if their election matters or not. liz cheney believes, i happen to believe the same thing and i have for some time, it's no longer about liberal versus conservative. republican versus democrat. it's about whether you support western democracy, whether you support preelections, or whether you support an ill-liberal form of democracy. i think the most surprising thing, at this phase now, we have people who are going out actively trying to take control of the conservative movement of the republican party, who are saying liberal democracy doesn't work. they want to move to what orban

is doing, they want to move more towards what putin is doing. they want to move away from democracy. move away from free elections because they think western democracy has been too corrupting. it's really bizarre that they're actually admitting this out loud. but they are. >> and that's the trump issue. and that used to be in itself an issue, whether you believe in democracy or not, whether that's just something you don't want to consider in your reality and stick with trump. but then i think there are, listen, it's a tall order for democrats do do extremely well in these midterms. we know that, we know historically because of what happens in this type of midterm. but there are two issues that are creeping into this, that might even distract a person who is committed to trump to the end. >> yeah. >> and that would be abortion. and maybe even this migrant issue. i think it might be back fire. i think it might just cut most people the wrong way.

it's not christian. it's not right. it's inhumane. there are people who just mr. know it was wrong and feel something about it. and the hispanic voter. >> i think where you're talking obviously where ron desantis takes people and -- specifically, ron desantis gets people who have fled a communist dictatorship, lies to them, sends them to an island in the northeast. and apparently, it seems lies to them -- have people lie to them to do it. and this is another great example of republicans overreaching. everything they're doing, they're overreaching. you know what, obviously, the supreme court is not making its calculations but if the supreme court would have upheld the mississippi case which places a ban at 15 weeks, but no, they go all the way. and now we see girls fleeing the state of ohio to get an abortion

because they were raped. you have the most horrible scenarios being laid out. women who could die on the operating table if republicans get their way in texas. if the attorney general gets his way. the same with immigration. now, democrats have badly mishandled the southern border over the past several years, horribly. just the issue doesn't seem to matter to them at all. it matters to most americans, most americans believe if you come into america, you need to come into america legally. that's where most americans are. if that shocks you, you need to wake up, okay. you need to wake up. they take that issue which would be a huge win for them and they overreach, by taking people who are fleeing a communist tyranny in venezuela, coming up to the united states, and then treating them like political pawns. these poor, hungry, refugees from a communist community, it's the antithesis, if you don't

believe me, go to the google machine -- it's the antithesis of everything that ronald reagan believed. everything ronald reagan did. everything ronald reagan would have done. again, in all of these cases, mika, we've seen it with liz cheney, we've seen it here, you have a party that's not conservative. you have a party that's not followed edmund burke and margaret thatcher's view of conservatism. you have radicals who are following down the path of where orban is, where putin is. and that's right. that's what liz cheney said, you know, she's a conservative, but it comes down do you support western democracy? do you support free elections or are you on the other side. coming up, italy is poised to have the most right wing

government, david ignatius breaks it down. and what it means for the global economy and the war in ukraine. that conversation is just ahead on "morning joe." style chicken is sublime and the roasted garlic aioli adds a lovely pecan flavor. man, the second retirement really changed you. the new subway series. what's your pick? you deserve to feel safe the new subway series. with the confidence that you're protected online. introducing mcafee plus, all in one protection that goes beyond your devices. it protects you, your identity and privacy

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italy is on course to elect the country's first female prime minister and the first government led by the far right since the end of world war ii. according to earlier projections a coalition ledgy giorgia meloni has won a decisive victory in italy's snap election. the coalition won just over 43% of the vote, which is enough to give it a comfortable parliamentary majority, reaching political consensus and cementing a coalition could take weeks. and a new government may only come to power in october. the vote could mark a big political shift for a pivotal european country dealing with ongoing economic and political instability. it also puts strain, a tight net

european alliance that has been standing with ukraine in its war with russia. >> and it's a real problem, we look at berlusconi who has been blaming ukrainians for years. he's an allies of hers. and saying about illegal forces pushing back and file thing western democracy. we've seen what's been happening in hungary over the past several years. saw what happened in sweden last week. what happened in italy yesterday. you have sweden and italy, two countries that were founded on fascism, now they're going to be running those countries. >> joe, the victory of a party that has its roots in italian fascism, plain and simple, the brothers of italy it's called, giorgia meloni's party is concerning to everybody. it accompanies, as you said, this move in europe, who could

think that in sweden a party with right wing neofascist roots would now be dominant in parliament. in france that right wing parties would make such a strong showing under marine le pen in the last election there's. is this populous rage that has swept across america. as has swept across america in 2020 election. i make two points of caution. the first is all the years i've looked at italian political coalitions one thing i have to remind myself, wait and see. these coalition tend to be instable and frag i can. meloni is with berlusconi there are dangerous pieces in that coalition. the second thing, as i look at europe, it's that now for 20 or 30 years, you had a movement by

ordinary europeans who say i'm not comfortable being governed from brussels. i don't want to give up my country. i don't want to be part of something that's supernational. every time that's put to a test with voters in france, where they were asked to support the new european constitution, they rejected. in britain, britain was so angry about the european union, it left the european union. and similarly now, in italy, the biggest appeal of giorgia meloni, the head that the new coalition has is saying we're not comfortable being governed by brussels. we're italians. even to the point of saying we may not want to use the euro as our money. that's not a new theme in europe. it's one that's been building and building. and to some extent, it's because the people in brussels who are part of the european union, just don't listen to ordinary folks. i hate to say that. but that's a part of the story we should remember. coming up, another huge story on the world stage. iran is gripped by its most significant protests in years.

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>> mariah carey, to the jonas brothers were some of the acts that took stage this past weekend for the annual global citizen festival in central park and across the world and in ghana, this year, the organization received more than $2.4 billion in commitments from governments and companies around the world toward its main goal of ending extreme poverty. joining us now, the founder and ceo of global citizen, hugh evans. congratulations. how did it go? >> good morning, mika and joe. good to see you. we were thrilled this weekend that the global citizen festival in new york city and in our ghana raised a total of $2.4 billion in new commitments for eradicating extreme poverty in our lifetime. if you break it down, that was about more money going to support the u.n. fpa, supporting

sexual reproduction health and rights, more money going towards tackling climate change. we saw many corporations step up and commit to the race to zero but also more money to help support the global food security crisis because we know as a result of the war in ukraine, grain shortages and fertilizer shortages have caused a massive challenge for small agricultural farmers across the continent. that's why this weekend suz so important, seeing world leaders, corporations and philanthropists step up in response to the actions of millions of global citizens. >> so, hugh, this was the tenth anniversary, the tenth global citizen festival. tell me, your goal of moving towards ending extreme poverty across the globe, tell me, are you on pace with what your time line is? >> well, thank you, joe. yeah. so, i was born in 1983, 52% of the world's planet lived in

extreme poverty. we're down to less than 10% of the planet today, so we have made progress in the last 30 to 40 years. but here's the challenge -- covid-19 as well as the war in ukraine have pushed 100 million people back into extreme poverty in the last two year, and if we don't address the urgent food security crisis, another 200 million people will be pushed back into extreme poverty by the end of this year, putting the total to over a billion people on the planet. that's why we need to act with urgency. that's why our coming g-20 meeting and the cop-27 taking place later this year are so critical to address these intersectional issues, because as you guys no full well, you can't isolate issues of climate change from issues of extreme poverty. they are two sides of the same coin. >> the g-20 this november is a significant meeting for lots of regions. extreme poverty often leads to

complications with health, health care, nations unable to provide for its citizens. tell us about efforts made on that front. >> it's a great question. so, this week we actually saw some real progress on the issue of global health. the global funds to fight hiv-aids under peter tan held their annual replenishment, and it was a success. we saw canada and the european commission step up and increase their investment into global health and to support the global fund by 30%. sadly, the uk government under the new prime minister liz truss did not step up. we need liz to demonstrate that she's willing to put uk's leadership on the global stage forward, and so we're hoping that the uk government will make a commitment and follow canada and the european commission's lead. as you said, global health is intimately related to extreme poverty. >> a big tenth anniversary, really successful in moving

toward the goal of getting these commitments. let me ask what's next. >> well, it's funny you ask that, joe, because when we first started global citizen as you know, we didn't even know there was going to be a year two. now it's become the largest movement of its kind around the world thanks in no small part to your support from "morning joe." so i thank you for that. as we go into the next ten years we see we'll do a lot more across the african continent, feeding ghana, really critical this year. but we have a commitment over the next ten years to really taking the movement and driving a pan african campaign for the eradication of extreme poverty. we also have this ambitious goal partnering with the world's largest social media platforms, whether it's facebook or twitter, to drive over a billion action takers to achieve a world free from extreme poverty within our lifetime. so it's going to be a huge ten years ahead. >> all right. founder and ceo of global

citizen, hugh evans, thanks so much for being with us. and congratulations for the great work that you and the organization continue to do. we greatly appreciate it. >> thank you. >> thank you, joe. thank you so much. it is the tom of the fourth hour of "morning joe," 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. on the east coast. we've got a lot to get to this hour, including a new report showing president biden is getting judges confirmed at a quicker pace than former president trump did in his record-setting term. plus, one prominent house republican says there is a lot of pressure on the party to impeach president biden if they retake control of congress. it's unclear, though, if party leaders know what the charges would be. and protests continue for the tenth straight night in iran with no signs of slowing down after the death of a young woman in police custody. we'll have a