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my father off. >> i remember taking it in the backyard and i tried to fire it. it burned my hand. it backfired. it could not shoot. so, i took the starter pistol, and i put it all the way back and my dresser drawer, under all my clothes. and i forgot about it. i had that thing. so my mother decided to move to englewood and take my brother and i had to englewood, because with my parents separating, we were losing the house.

that's what my mom or -- my mother unfortunately had to take him out of -- my brother started going to dwight mauro high school in englewood. he didn't want to go, because he knew that there were kids side that didn't get along with him. >> most of his friends, they were going to teaneck high school. but he couldn't go there. >> the fights used to be between englewood, teaneck -- it was a try town beef. never knew what the problem was. -- we've been doing this since the 60s. >> it's funny because, tenhaken angle would are just one street apart. they're just one bridge apart. but one philip went to englewood, the first couple days, i think -- it was on.

at the time, we had a group called the violators. what made us fight was we were defending ourselves. >> you stab go from where we lived in englewood to move to teaneck. that wasn't more than two blocks. but between where we lived in englewood in teaneck, -- they all wanted to fight him. >> first time i remember meeting fill, for no reason at all, mean philip how to fight. i think i started. in fact, i know i started. but it was simply because he was from teaneck. the, guess get recognition from older people, hey, i just had a fight with this teaneck kid from being in englewood. but there was no particular reason. >> he got tired of getting beat up. i remember the kick them in his back, broke his ribs, that kicked him in the head. he came home with his black

eyes, he looked like a monster. >> he used to always tell me he had had a fight. only reason i knew where this starter pistol was was because i would wear my mother's clothes, things like that. i was looking through her gerard, and i was like, okay, i'll tell you where it is. but we have to pinkie swear on our lives that, you know, we're not gonna say anything, and that you're not gonna get it. after that, i kind of let it leave my mind. i didn't think anything of it. and then, this happened. >> i think he felt like he needed to carry a starter pistol because once you kind of get in that life, you get caught by yourself, and guys are driving by, there's a good chance you might need one. he was probably protecting

himself. >> i don't know. i don't know. how did i let it get this far? i still think that i knew my own child. i don't. >> even if philip possessed a firearm, you can't shoot a firearm with your back to the officers. what could've done? >> yesterday, a state grand jury indicted officer -- reckless manslaughter. >> after months of grand jury testimony, in the second grand jury, the grand jury came back with an indictment. a manslaughter indictment. >> when they came back with the indictment -- i still felt that it should've been a murder charge. because it was murder. he was shot in the back with his hands up. >> accompanied by his family, officer gary spot clasped his hands and prayer and passed

himself -- proceedings were about to begin. >> charges of secondary -- maximum plum interment of 5 to 10 years in prison. >> it is extremely rare for police officers to be put on trial. police officers are put on trial for corruption, that sort of thing. this was very different. this was a police officer who in the course of doing his duty was indicted for a criminal offense -- manslaughter. >> i think that was, you know, the officer's worst fear. that their brother officer would now have to go to trial, and they spent a significant period in jail if convicted of the charges.

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police officer gary baffert will begin. that is the defendant, officer gary staff, who is now not on active duty, and he's arriving

there. >> to brigham county families sat in a hackensack courtroom today, each searching for a different definition of justice. already, there are problems. the courtroom is small, and supporters of the victims family are complaining about not being allowed inside. >> it increases the tension. the family was asked to sit with the spa family, which we objected to because we felt that was in substantive. >> it looks like no one was around me, but my daughter -- i looked on his side, and it looked like his whole family was there. >> the way they had us sit, there was one guy that was sitting here. i think he worked for the court. that one guy separated us from -- i would -- children or something like that.

it was just bizarre. >> i didn't even want to look that way. but when i look, i saw fury. when i saw all that -- i said we don't have a chance. >> so, the prosecution's case was really built on a dual strategy. you had eyewitnesses to the incident and then you had the forensic evidence. >> the prosecution helped present i what mrs. telling from their perspective what they saw happen here. >> it was like shock -- so real feeling. it was just --

>> the principal witnesses where young people hug. there were ordinary suburban new jersey kids. there were not thugs. they were ordinary kids. doing do ordinary kid stuff. katy >> what was that first thing you notice that was unusual that day? >> -- on the grass. >> they opened their door and came out with their guns drawn. >> and where did these two officers point that gotten's? >> at the kids. >> they was coming -- like that. >> who were they pointing their

guns at? >> at the kids. >> you and the other kids? >> yes. >> the 13 year old and 14 year old children? >> yes. >> they stay in their cars or did they -- what did the police do with their guns out? >> there was coming towards us. >> i think the young witnesses were challenged. it was a moment of reckoning that we have to do this, but we're also afraid. because we just saw what happened to philip. >> scared. >> there were 15 kids, they're right? >> yes. >> and everybody was running. is that right? >> yes. >> in talking to witnesses, you have to be sure what they think they know, what they actually know, what they observe, and the level of detail that they can share with you. because you're trying to get it right. >> witness testimony and any criminal case is always problematic. we see things differently.

it's just the way life works. so, therefore, the defense was able to establish that basically, for the jury, don't believe anything that these eyewitnesses are testifying to. because they're all conflicting statements anyway. >> can you tell what the jury what the weather was that day? >> i don't remember. >> you don't remember that. >> no. >> do you know who's on either side of philip against the wall? >> no. >> is that because you are not looking at philip at the time? >> now. i just don't know who is on the side of. >> so the only when you are looking at, even though you didn't know he had a gun, was philip. >> yes. >> i've nothing further, thank you. >> when you said that you saw philippe get shot, -- >> i didn't say i saw him get shot. he asked me. >> did you go on television and give an interview about what you saw on april ten, 1990? >> yes. >> and you say on television in the interview that you saw phil with his hands up in the air? they also asked me. talk jonathan, i'm asking the

question. >> i'm telling you the question. -- >> we've put witnesses on the stand that seemed real good when you're prepping them, in your office, and you go there and say -- oh my god. >> you had indicated that you never said which officer you saw the class come from. >> i don't remember telling them that i saw it from the big offices. >> did you see which officer had shot at the individual? you answered, the big big guy. he was the one that i saw. the dissent? >> everything on that statement is everything i said. >> the credibility wasn't a past suspect. you're not saying they're lying. but what you're saying is, can you depend on this to prove something beyond a reasonable doubt? >> melvin --

former teaneck resident that pinal was trying to give up when the police opened fire. cool >> do you remember telling the police, or days after an incident, but the kid never had his hands high like he was surrendering? >> i don't remember telling them that. >> there is a strange development in the trial of the police officer accused of killing teenager phillip pannell in teaneck. a key witness for the prosecution was taken into custody after this testimony. >> soon after he left the stand, controversy broke out when he was arrested by county police on a parole violation as he left the courtroom. a police dispatcher watching the trial on court to be recognized him, remember the outstanding warrant, and followed the -- to have him picked up. >> prosecutors say it was an attempt to increase intimidate the witness.

>> you don't to intimidate in any way whatsoever. -- affected this jury or anybody affected the proceedings. >> when melton debary was arrested, it drew attention to the fact that the sheriffs at the time -- former teaneck police officer. so now one of spath its allies is in charge of the sheriff's department, which is running security for the trial. >> because of the fact that the sheriff was a former teaneck police officer, the implication is at least on the part of the prosecution that this was in some way planned to intimidate the witness. >> that is absolutely not true. as a matter of fact, the sheriff's not been in the building all day. >> but the panel family said that the attorney, orchestrated to buries arrest. >> he knew that he had a rocket from a year ago, and so it was a setup. >> it was sending a message to all of the other witnesses that

we will find a way to come after you. it was sort of the story of that trial. the trial was all about intimidation and harassment of black people to make sure that they were going to be put in our place. >> i don't know what he did, i didn't even realize. >> i think he was concerned that they have something. >> i would like to see the attorneys in the chamber. >> a trial that was being watched nationwide to see the black male witness arrested after he testified was not a good sign. luxury exemplified. innovation electrified. with apple music seamlessly integrated. the all-new, all-electric eqs suv from mercedes-benz.

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only pay for what you need. i was injured in a car crash. i had no idea how much my case was worth. i called the barnes firm. i wanted to go to every trial when a truck hit my son, i had so many questions about his case. i called the barnes firm. it was the best call i could've made. your case is often worth more than insuran call the barnes firm to find out i could've made. what your case could be worth. we will help get you the best result possible. ♪ the barnes firm, injury attorneys ♪ call one eight hundred,est resul eight million ♪ date, but i couldn't, because i had to go to school. the days that i knew that it was going to be an important witness, i wanted to make sure i was there. >> welcome back, we are about to go live into the courtroom

in the case of new jersey versus police officer gary's path. >> when you have conflicting testimony about what happened, and no videotape, it's the forensic evidence that helps both sides. it generally helps the prosecution. assuming that you have credible experts that can explain the forensic evidence in a way that fits within the common understanding of most jurors. >> let's go into the courtroom to see what they are seeing there. >> in this case, i thought the prosecution had a difficult hill to climb, in making that testimony simple enough so that it would resonate with the jury. >> give us the name. >> michael biden, b a d e and. >> michael was a well-known expert in forensics, and particular autopsies. >> the most significant feature

has to do with the importance of the bullet, and the missing area. >> michael baden said that if you take a look at the bones that were not touched by that bullet, it would indicate that phillips hands were either at his shoulder level, or maybe even above his head. perhaps in surrender. >> the autopsy came in. the left upper sternum, the left upper arm was above 90 degrees. >> the problem was that gary spath attorney was able to poke holes into his conclusion. he was able to poke enough holes in those to raise some kind of reasonable doubt. >> in the event that the upper arm were above 90 degrees, and taking all the way to the tips of the fingers, is it fair to

say that you cannot tell where they would be from the elbow, and different fingers would be to looking at the thing you just described to the jury. >> my opinion is that i cannot tell what is going on beyond the elbow. >> and that is a very effective cross admit -- he did not say that the conclusions are wrong, he just said that you really can't come to those conclusions based upon the limited degree of evidence that you had. >> keep in mind, this challenge that the prosecution faced, they were trying to present philippe as a human being, and so in order to show graphically where the bullet hole was on phillips body, they decided to use a live model. >> the young man here is an

employee of the state of new jersey named -- who is selected for this demonstration because of his similarity in height and weight to the young man who was killed in the shooting. >> what i have asked mr. wright to do is to remove the garments that he had to expose his left back, where the bullet entered, so that i can make the same measurements of his body as were made on the body of mr. phillip pannell. >> this guy was holding his hands up, and i want to say that i remember them putting a red coat on him, and a depiction of my brother. it made me feel angry, because i felt like it was not like they even cared and took into consideration that my mother was there. she had to go through all of this, and our family was there. >> that did something for me, when i saw that. >> i could imagine him in that

coat, when that young man was the same size that he was. that really made me feel like i actually saw when he was running or something, i actually saw a version of him running with that jacket on, and he had his hands up. that's when my mind just went blank. i was in a daze, through the whole trial, i was in a daze. >> for the panels, there is a sense that the courtroom was hostile to them. it reached a breaking point when they called their own forensic experts. >> [inaudible] according to his book that is entitled gunshot wounds, mass effects of firearms, ballistics,

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dragging on and on. the morale was lowest it could possibly be. community was blaming gary, at least many members of the community. >> one of the reasons it was an emotional police -- gary was such a nice guy. >> i remember somebody telling me pretty early on that he was not one of the, quote unquote, cowboys on the police department. this is a guy who basically got along very well with people in the community. >> he grew up in teaneck, his parents grew up in teaneck, his father was a police detective. >> his father was on the force, his father was up in the juvenile bureau. and so as a son, he wanted to impress him and show him that he was able to do the job, and

be just like him. >> i knew gary spath, we went to elementary school together. we were part of the integration experience, and so i knew him, he knew me. >> and went to high school with gary, he was a great baseball player, he was funny, always tried to make you laugh. >> i knew him as a good guy, a decent person. >> everybody loved him when he was around. he played little practical jokes, and different people within the department. and so we used to get a kick out of that. >> he quickly got a reputation for being a community oriented police officer. he would, on his off-duty, the coaching different sports teams and activities on the job. he would help people out if they were in trouble getting

out of the driveway, they would help the change the tires of people. >> he was loved and liked by everybody, and that is why everybody took it so hard, that that happened. >> it just made it even more troubling to understand. >> give your name -- the address is not necessary. >> [inaudible] >> the day in which the defense was finally opportunities to opposite -- -- they called norman brew this afternoon, he initiated the telephone call. saying that there was a gunman out here in a nearby home. >> very important to the defense strategy was to try to show that spat's life was in danger. >> i saw one of the boys put his hand, --

[inaudible] [inaudible] >> the dispatches told gary spath, we don't know if it's real or a toy. >> this could've been a toy gun, and one of the questions the continued to hover over the trial, and indeed, over the defense strategy was this. was gary reckless that day? the defense added several options here. one was to put gary spath on the stand. the other option, which the defense decided to go with first was to put the other

officer on the scene that day on the witness stand. that was wayne blanco. >> we have been waiting a long time for awaiting -- one of the people in authority at the time of the shooting. >> gary's partner wayne was a really good cop. he wasn't one of those law enforcement guys that felt like it was a war, he understood what teaneck was, the communities in teaneck. wayne had a good sense of justice, too. >> what did you do when you got out of the car? >> i had my gun drawn. >> why did you have you gone? >> we had a report of a man with a gun. >> he was one of the main witnesses of the trial. he was the guy that could backup's path. was his life in danger? >> everybody turned and started to walk towards the wall. he started flailing his arms,

and saying, you guys don't have the right. i reached out with my left hand, and i -- [inaudible] >> and then what did you do? >> i reached over to his other pocket. >> what did you do? >> i saw an item in his pocket that i believe to be the gun. >> what happened when your hand touched his left pocket? >> we made eye contact, and his eyes got wide. he turned and ran. >> i read blanca's statement, and i thought the portions of it were not true. there were at least five kids in that school yard who said he never touched him, and i believed the kids. [inaudible] >> there was never a frisk that i saw, because i was on the end

of the corner. there was no frisk. he never got that close to him. >> the reason that's important is that i don't believe that spath had specific knowledge that phillip pannell had a gun. i think he suspected it, but i don't think he knew it. [inaudible] gary spath never had that firsthand knowledge. >> i told him. >> did you tell it which pocket it was in? >> no. >> regardless of whether blanco pass phillips jacket the way he said he did or not, the one thing that we do know is that neither spath nor blanco actually saw the gun before he shot philip. >> he ran about 20 feet i would say, and he put his left hand in his pocket and certainly

turned on us. and officer spath fired the shot. >> you didn't bioweapon? >> no. >> because officer spath beat me to it. >> blanco said that spath -- that means that my son didn't have a chance. (vo) you can be well-dressed. (man) wahoooo! (vo) you can be well-groomed. or even well-spoken. (man) ooooooo. (vo) but there's just something about being well-adventured. (man) wahoooooo! (vo) adventure on a deeper level. discover more in the subaru forester wilderness. love. it's what makes subaru, subaru.

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only at wayfair! ♪ wayfair you've got just what i need ♪ i used to watch the trial every

day. back in the pcr days, i would record the trial, and watch the trial when i came home from school, or football practice. i didn't want somebody to get away with killing him, and he didn't deserve to die. whether i liked him or not.

whether we got along or not. >> we had the hopes, up maybe the jury would acquit your kids, or one of your family members, and so we were hopeful. >> welcome back, we expect to go live into that courtroom for the trial of new jersey versus police officer gary spath. >> security here has remarkable, and there has been an entirely tight restriction to the access of the courtroom. only eight journalists around inside, with a courtroom that has 70 seats. >> did you see who always packed, and you will see in the audience there, police officers. they have been here every day. >> we have to understand this is a political issue. the officers are giving support to their brother officer, and also sending a message to the jury. complacently, they are saying that we are here because we are protecting you. we are the ones, and we must

have that right to make that judgment. >> it is basically trying to show and to prove to us our nothingness. that you can testify against us, you can show up in court, but you don't matter, because we are going to show more force than you. we are going to occupy one half of this courtroom, and show our police strength. we are going to come into the courthouse with our weapons, we are going to make sure that you understand who is in control. they aren't telling you who you are in this community. you have no standing. you have no agency. and so basically, what we are doing in this courtroom, this is just business in our part. we're going to be done with this, you're going to be done, people aren't even going to think about this kid in another year. >> the courtroom was filled, there were spectators that wanted to get in, but could not have seats.

and yet the doors to the courtroom were open. and in comes the officer in a wheelchair. >> the person who you see there sitting in a wheelchair is officer steven mcdonald at the new york police force, and as you can see he is partially paralyzed. he was shot by a teenager with a weapon in central park in new york. his presence here on this day is fairly obviously a show of solidarity and support for officer gary spath. >> mcdonald was a symbol at that point, to try to show that spath's life was in danger. >> to show the jury the reality of what happens to a police officer when they get shot, when they get injured to a point where their entire life

changes in a split second. i think at times, just others listening to a story, i think it doesn't capture, in your mind, and in your heart, and in your soul, and in your spirit, what you physically see. when they saw steve mcdonell in that wheelchair, it can only cause you to think about what happens to the cop if that cup waits a split second, do you know what happens to him? they become a -- >> ladies and gentlemen, i'm going to ask you to retire to the jury room. >> the judge stopped the trial, asked the jury to take a break. and then immediately got angry with what the defense was up to. >> he had no right to be brought into this courtroom after we started the morning session! it is a terrible thing that has been done! a terrible thing! >> i know what it was, to make

the jurors look at him to say that this is what could've happened to one of the other cops. but that had nothing to do with this, to me, this incident had nothing to do with it. >> there has to be something done, absolutely, unequivocally in relation to the officials and spectators. the state police, beginning monday, will be taken care of. this is security and any job of admission into this courtroom. >> the new jersey state police came in and replaced the burton county sheriff's department as security for the trial. >> i don't know if it helped or hurt, because the judge was quite angry. he thought it was -- >> this really cut to the heart of the deeper tension that was underneath this trial.

>> it was this cauldron of a motion at the courthouse, both in the courtroom and outside, that was boiling up by the time they gary spath finally took the witness stand. they were so concerned that staff would not handle testifying. >> i had no choice but to shoot at him. the same for male own life. >> the judge has indicated that

the jury has reached a verdict. >> after the verdict, the story was very much left unsettled. tonight on the mehdi hasan's show, jimmy thomas sits down with the january six committee. but was her testimony worth waiting for? and what about? terrence plus, is letting her putin planning a nuclear slate against ukraine i will speak to -- with the toughest sanctions against russia. what does he think about the atomic threat? and why the american right-wing is racing to embrace italy's new prime minister and why many are not taking her seriously enough. ♪ ♪ ♪ good evening. i am mehdi hasan. donald trump held a rally in michigan and it went pretty