hogan, these are great evangelical organizations run by evangelicals. but they don't get a lot of press. these days it's the political lens that we see everything through, and that's a real shame. >> reverend al is with us and has a question. rev. >> philip, thank you, first of all, for your witness. let me ask you, because we talked earlier about my own growth in this -- never racist, anti-semitic but would say things i shouldn't say playing to the crowd. mrs. coretta scott king said wait a minute, you can't be both and admonished me to not use language including the "n" word. do you think that evangelical leaders and christian leaders should be openly denouncing those that are using violent language and vile things? it's not enough not to participate in them. i'm asking this because senator

scott, who would not attack something trump said. don't we also have a responsibility to not only not do it but also to say when someone does it, that that's wrong or we disagree with it forthright and not try to kind of pull out punches? >> absolutely to i agree with you. one of the things that just shocked me early in trump's presidency was when he would use words like deranged and human scum to describe his enemies, enemies of the state. and i'm from a generation when we would address our opponents by something like my right honorable opponent. what a -- what a fall in just the civility of our nation that was introduced by trump. and i don't think anybody can really justify that. i don't think it helps them at all. i agree with you. yeah, it should be renounced and called out. >> we're at the top of the hour. i just want to underline one final thing here because you

brought this up, and i remember when nancy pelosi said that she prayed for donald trump, and he said, oh, that's a lie, why would she pray for me? i'm not making this about nancy pelosi and donald trump. i want to expand it out and talk about evangelicals and people who follow christ. right there in the center of the mountain, jesus said, you've heard it said love your friends and hate your enemy, but i say love your enemy taos. pray for those who persecute you. if you only love those who love you, what good are you doing? even sinners do that. this is just the sort of spirit that seems to be completely missing at least in the public sphere when people who claim to be evangelicals get engaged in politics. >> you're absolutely right. we need some prophetic voices.

i was born and bred a racist. and it really took martin luther king jr., and reverend sharpton knows almost everyone who was a civil rights leader in those days was a reverend, and they were appealing to a higher power, and it was martin luther king jr. who actually took that principle of love your enemies and put it into practice. he said i've got to love the policeman who's hitting me with the billy club, the jail kwhoer's making my life miserable. i have to somehow find a way to that person. we have to start there. he appealed to a higher power. i think that's what we're lacking today, so much you versus me, what side are you on, but we don't have a higher power we can appeal to, which is so different from the dramatic change that took place during the civil rights movement of the 1960s. >> the recent men oir is titled "where the light fell," philip

yancey, thanks for coming on for this important conversation. >> thank you. we hope to see you again soon. a few minutes past the top of the hour on this monday, october 3rd. it is 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. on the east coast as we launch the fourth hour of "morning joe" where the death toll from hurricane ian is rising. hundreds of thousands remain without power throughout florida right now and the carolinas as well as federal officials launch their largest ever search-and-rescue operation. we'll get a report in just a moment. and in a few minutes the president and the first lady will be departing the white house on their way to puerto rico, where 25 people were killed and over 100,000 people remain without power more than two weeks after hurricane fiona ravaged the island. and overseas, ukrainian fighters advance deeper into

russian-controlled areas in the east, threatening to cut off russian forces from supply lines and to potentially deal another costly defeat to president putin. this is the late nest a series of major victories for the ukrainian army, which last month made massive gains in the country's northeast, reclaiming virtually all the territory russian forces had captured since the war began. now a new report this morning by the associated press and "front line" has found that russia is smuggling ukrainian grain, stealing worth at least half a billion dollars worth to help pay for the war. let's bring in nbc news correspondent erin mclaughlin live in kharkiv. what's the latest? >> reporter: overnight ukrainian forces reclaimed more territory, this time to the south, but with those battlefield gains brings

uncertainty about what the russian president could do next. this morning ukrainian forces pushing forward with their relentless counteroffensive, reclaiming two settlements in the south overnight according to the ukrainian president, bringing them closer to the russian-occupied city of kherson, this after raising the ukrainian flag in a key transport hub in the east, opening the door to reclaiming more lost land in the donbas region. just days after the russian president declared large chunks of ukraine part of russian territory forever, while accusing the west of trying to weaken and destroy his country. president zelenskyy calling the stunning gains proof putin's claims are a farce. >> they've done very, very well. in terms of what will happen going forward, hard to predict. >> reporter: ukraine's battlefield momentum eliciting a

dire threat from the leader of chechnya, an ally of putin, calling for the use of low-yield nuclear weapons. in a village, the russian assault and occupation scarring the landscape. ukrainian soldiers are now in control of this area, but there isn't much of it left. devastation as far as the eye can see. in fact, it looks like a hurricane, earthquake, and toid struck this village all at once and there's hardly anyone left. 36-year-old nickola is one of few residents remaining in the village. how did you survive? "i don't know. at times artillery shells were falling close to me, ten meters from us, but fortunately it didn't explode. the russians were shelling two shells per minute from each cannon. after they left, it was silent."

now, with respect to those gains made by ukrainian forces to the south and the kherson region overnight, this morning we are hearing from the russian defense ministry acknowledging those gains, putting out a statement saying, quote, superior enemy tank units succeeded in wedging into the depths of our defense. a similar statement put out after the ukrainian forces reclaimed the town of lyman over the weekend. mika? >> nbc news correspondent erin mclaughlin reporting live from kharkiv. thank you very much. let's bring in now former fbi special agent and national security analyst for nbc news and msnbc clint watts, and retired army four-star general barry mccaffrey, an nbc news military analyst. thank you both for being with us. >> great to have you guys on. general, always an honor talking to you. give me your latest insights into what we've been seeing over the past few weeks with russia's

army seemingly in even more dire straits. >> well, these are really momentous events. ukraine's taken a $17 billion infusion of military technology and turned it into a phenomenal force. they have destabilized the russian forces in the east. when they captured lyman's logistics and rail hub, it's possible that will unravel russian forces in the east. but, you know, the two iron laws of combat are, one, gain and maintain contact with an enemy force, and secondly, you must be relentless in the pursuit, so the ukrainians still have a tremendous opportunity but a difficult fight ahead of them. in the south, i think that's the strategic center of gravity of

the war from kherson. the ukrainians must control the black sea to be economically viable going forward. it may be that they are on the verge of bagging 15,000 or more russian troops in kherson, who are now cut off from their bridges over the river behind them. i think one final thought, joe, it's very difficult to calibrate military force. so there's a lot of discussion right now, well, we have to leave putin a way out, make sure he's not humiliated. no one ever gave up in diplomacy what they had won on the battlefield. so zelenskyy and his forces have got to continue the attack. >> general, if you could, give americans that are watching this morning and people elsewhere a bit of perspective on one of the reasons the ukrainians are doing so well. that has to do with training

from the united states. obviously, they're fighting the battle, and i don't take anything away from their extraordinary herism because theirs are the ones on the line, but there's been this far they've we lost iraq, we lost afghanistan, they weakened us, when, in fact, you talk to the people who are there, who understand what we learned, what the pentagon learned, what our troops learned, what our commanders learned, what our ncos learned over the past 20 years, and far from what some right-wing freaks are saying, we don't have a weak military. we have the toughest s.o.b.s in the history of fighting if you look what 2,500 men and women could do in syria, what putting 2,500 people in afghanistan did and what removing them, the chaos that caused, could you talk about what we've learned

over 20 years, how much better we got at fighting urban warfare and how that is being taken into every fight that the ukrainians are taking to the russians? >> you're right. two things count -- leadership and training. the technology at the end of the day tends to not be the dominant variable in the outcome of a battle. the ukrainians have managed to develop inside a massively expanded force, a half million territorial forces called up and put into the battle. they provided the leadership. and i think we ought to remind ourself -- by the way, it was the california national guard and other national guard units for a decade that worked at developing a ukrainian noncommissioned officer corps and trying to get them away from this top-down soviet model of do what you're told and don't move if you to dent get an order.

so it's been a tremendous experience. i've got to add, you know, every time i see secretary lloyd austin on tv, it gives me a good feeling. this guy has seen the whole thing. he's been shot at himself, i think he and tony blinken at state and the president and the national security council have put together an astonishing package. they brought nato together. nato was moribund after trump got through with it. so, i think we've done the right thing. it may well be that there will be turning points with mr. putin about to get destabilized politically. what will he do? but, you know, the doctor said you can't allow nuclear weapons to be normalized and be used on the battlefield. so we have some tremendous affairs coming up. >> so right. so right. mika, i should revise my

question, not right-wing freaks, right-wing extremists, because it is a very small group of people on the far right who are attacking our military, who are saying they are weak, who are supporting vladimir putin, a very small group. most republicans shoulder to shoulder with democrats and president biden in pushing back against this russian tyranny. >> clint watts, back to exactly what's happening on the battlefield, as much as we know, what do we know the ukrainians have been for sure able to recapture? how much do you think this gets back to the people of russia or to other russian troops, stories like, for example, russian troops right now being surrounded by ukrainians? >> mika, it was five months ago, we were here talking at the board and i think the point we were all trying to make is you can't use disinformation forever when you're taking tens of thousands of dead. eventually the people back home will figure out that's exactly what's unfolded in the last two weeks with this mobilization.

when they're calling up for 100,000 people, the war has come home to russia, and not only has it come home, you're seeing men just thrown into the battlefield within 48 to 96 hours, surfacing on the front lines. you'll hear the russian leaders refer to them as just meat, put the meat out there to stop the advance of the ukrainians. i think they are in deep trouble as a military. the russian military is going down. across the board, you could go on social media right now and find retreating russian soldiers fleeing the battlefield, several -- you'll see call-ups, new recruits, people my age and older being thrown up on the front lines. they have no idea where they're at. they don't have equipment. oh, by the way, it's going to get really cold in about 30 days. if the russian military can't supply these guys now, add the cold weather setting in during the middle of winter and i think you'll see even larger desertions, a lot of men fleeing to other countries. that's where you're seeing the

dangerous rhetoric. what do they do when they're about to lose? you go out on social media, you can see clips of what general mccaffrey was talking about kherson. the ukrainians are advancing on kherson, which was seen as the key first city that the russians took when they came out of crimea. if you watch, you'll see explosions deep in crimea, ammunition depots almost every single day. the war is just falling apart for the russian military. i think the question then become what is will putin do with all of his options expended? i think he's getting very close to that. when winter sets in, if the ukrainians can continue that momentum, as the general said, they are in an amazing position to take back a lot of grounds. and what would putin do at that point. >> picking up on that threat, western officials from the first days of the war were concerned that putin would use some sort of strike within russia, perhaps a false-flag operation even, to justify escalating the attack. and now, because of these sham

referendums, he has added parts of ukraine, he says, to russia. does fighting in those territories, which of course there will be, what is your level of concern that putin will use that and say, look, this violence is in the motherland, therefore we have to strike back? what kind of strike could that be? >> yeah. i think it's interesting to a couple degrees. there was a moment there we were talking about the use of chemical weapons, and those are largely focused on populations -- the battlefield is not that way now. it's unraveled. you have troops moving in many directions, russian troops as well. second, the one limiting factor i think for the use of nuclear weapons there is only so much russian troops and manpower there. would he call in on a strike on his own personnel in that southern area? i think in our lifetime, world war ii to now, this is the highest possibility that we've ever considered a nuclear explosion or detonation of any type. i think that's where the big

concern is, because what you saw over the last 48 commanders is commanders, the leader of the mercenaries speaking out against the russian military, speaking out against putin. if you go to the telegram space where russian bloggers are at, they're negative towards russian military and putin. when you get. into that situation, you have to start asking what is putin's options now? those most loyal to him are talking back. the public is aware. they see troops going out. they don't come home. it's a dangerous situation. i think in the next one or two months,000 this unfolds. the positive part is the ukrainian military has done so well that as the general noted it's time to go to putin and say how do we make this end that there's an off-ramp in some way but not give round to an invasion by the russians that we never should have tolerated. >> general, any final thoughts?

>> well, i think you just stated the real situation on the ground. the ukrainians will continue to pursue this russian force. it looks very likely after tough fighting that will start to unravel. putin will clearly consider the use of chemical weapons which are of no real value except the targets. what would he target a tactical nuclear weapon on? poland? kyiv? kharkiv? it's so illogical to think that he would go nuclear, but he's desperate. his existence is now at stake. so a tough 06 days coming up. >> national security analyst clint watts and retired army four-star general barry mccaffrey, thank you very much, both of you, for being on this morning. now to our other top story this morning, major rescue and relief efforts still under way in florida five days after

hurricane ian made landfall. the storm killed at least 83 people in the state and another four in north carolina. joining us now from ft. myers beach, florida, nbc news correspondent liz mclaughlin. what is the latest on the recovery efforts? >> reporter: five days after hurricane ian barreled through this once vibrant marina and it looks like no time has passed at all. it's completely unrecognizable, just piles of debris. where i'm standing there used to be a building where they rent out kayaks, where people could come, bait shop, and it was picked up and deposited across the street. it looks like there was a tornado. there's tangles of power lines and debris, siding of people's homes, children's toys, just piles of it, and it's going to take years to recover according to some of the business owners i have talked to, the demolition crewings that are starting to come in now. and officials tell us that residents can't come to ft.

myers beach for this upcoming week. they're still trying to have those recovery, those search efforts, and it's just too much confusion to have residents going back and forth. obviously, people want to check on their property, on their loved ones, through task forces going door to door, sometimes knock do you think doors to try to make sure that every is accounted for. hundreds of thousands remain without power, some communities without drinking water, and florida governor ron desantis said he's mobilizing the florida department of transportation to try to get the most isolated areas that are only accessible by boat, by air, president biden coming in on wednesday, and governor desantis wrote a letter asking president biden for support, for help for this ravaged state. that's just ten years almost -- in 2013, the congressman opposed aid to victims of hurricane

sandy. >> nbc's liz mclaughlin live in ft. myers beach, thank you very much for your reporting. obviously a number of hospitals in the area were hard hit by the storm, whether it be massive amounts of water flooding the hospitals or water being cut off to the health care facilities. joining us now, ceo and president of lee health, dr. larry antonucci. his health system is the largest health care provider in lee county, which of course was the hardest hit area. sir, first of all, how many hospitals does your system represent? how are they doing? >> we have acute care hospitals, a children's homts, a rehab hospital. we provide 95% of the hospital care in this community, so we're a vital part of the health care situation here in lee county. and our facilities have held up well throughout the hurricane. what we've been challenged with is our utilities. we've been on generators for a

few day, and as of yesterday now we're on full power. but water has been a challenge for us. it's hard to imagine running a hospital without a water supply. we've lost water supply in two facilities. first two days we had to go on emergency water use, et cetera. we're beginning to see that restore right now u and we're hoping that we can stop evacuating patients. we had to evacuate patients for two of our hospitals here during the early stages post hurricane. we're cautiously optimistic that today we will have adequate water pressures to not have to do that. >> so, is the hope to get water back online for the facilities, what, in the next day, or do we not know? >> well, we have water supply right now, but we want to make sure that it's stable and sustainable, because as our walter pressures have gone up, we want to make sure that as new communities are opened up, that that pressure doesn't drop. we need to maintain a certain

water pressure for our fire suppression systems, for example. we've been using water tankers, et cetera. but now that we're hooked back up to utility water, we want to make sure we have the stability of those walter supplies before we stop any type of evacuations. >> dr. larry antonucci, ceo and president of lee health, thank you very much. we'll be checking back in. president biden and first lady dr. jill biden will be traveling to puerto rico this morning to visit those impacted by hurricane fiona, which left at least 25 people dead. joining us live from puerto rico, nbc news correspondent gabe guterres. what can we expect from the president's visit today? >> reporter: mika, good morning. we're here in puerto rico. power crews are hard at work trying to restore power to some of the neighborhoods. according to luma energy, the private consortium that took

over power distribution here on the island last year, about 92% of customers here on this island have had their electricity restored, mika, but some communities in the southwestern part of the island, including a few neighborhoods here, are still without power more than two weeks after the storm hit. now, president biden is set to visit this area later today according to a white house official. the president is set to announce another $60 million in funding from his administration's bipartisan infrastructure law that is set to, the administration says, provide more resources for puerto rico to better protect against future storms. that could mean shoring up levees and also building a flood warning system as well. still, mika, there is a lot of frustration among puerto ricans hear from what they see as a lackluster response by the federal government. the initial disaster declaration

here, some communities that were among the hardest hit were left off that disaster declaration. they have since been added. but there has been frustration not just against the federal government but the local government here and this power company, luma energy, which, as i said, took over power distribution last year. there have been outages mounting over the last several months, protests here as well. and there has been frustration that more lessons were not learned following hurricane maria five years ago last month. so, again, power is being restored here in puerto rico, but 92% of this island now has power. but for those 8% that do not, it has been a very long recovery. and still to come, and that is what president biden and the first lady will be seeing when they come here later today. they're set to take part in a community effort to pack and distribute supplies and also be briefed by local officials about the emergency response.

>> nbc news correspondent gabe gutierrez, thank you very much. >> you hear interviews out of puerto rico from residents there, so many of them -- the united states for all the money they gave during maria and what they're doing now, but the complaints are their own government just didn't learn the lessons from five years ago and they shouldn't have to go through this over and over again. there should be a better response. by the way, we were talking about health care just a few minutes ago in lee county, it's something over the past 12 years, republicans have spent most of that time promising voters they're going to overturn obamacare. >> get rid of it. >> the affordable care act. going to get rid of it despite the fact they never gave their own alternative health care reform plan. now, i think they've just given up. instead of giving us a republican. alternative that everybody could get behind in the republican

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hey, everyone, i'm peyton manning. [ cheers and applause ] >> and, yeah, and i'm eli man, his brother. >> yeah. i think they know we're brothers because of the same last name. >> oh, yeah. >> now, this is our "manningcast," where we do live analysis of what's already played on tv. normally we do it during "monday night football." >> but tonight's not monday. it's saturday. >> great insight, eli. >> yeah, so instead of football, we decided to check out the season premiere of "snl." >> there are a lot of changes at the show which would be

exciting. let's see what they spent the entire summer coming up with. >> okay. we got this shot of mar-a-lago. >> oh, good. trump stitch. >> mr. president, as your lawyer, i don't think we should be hiding during a hurricane. >> actually, it's the safest place ef on been in two years. no lawyers, no fbi. i'm in my happy place. >> a few guests wanted to say hello, mr. president. >> please, call me current president. >> okay. welcome back. 33 past the hour. republicans are abandoning their crusade to repeal the affordable care act. none of the republican senate nominees running in eight battleground states have it on their websites, and those candidates have caires scarcely mentioned the law or health insurance policy in general while on the campaign trail. so for the first time in over a decade, the future of obamacare won't be a driving issue at the

ballot box. let's bring in nbc news senior national political reporter sahil kapur, who writes about how the republican party's appetite for undoing former president obama's signature law has faded. where did it go? because they were hellbent on getting rid of it. it was a campaign promise. >> yeah. it's a dizzying shift for the republicans, mika. after 12 years and 'election after election of hammering this issue, campaigning and repealing obamacare, that talk has faded. kevin mccarthy has an agenda that doesn't mention it at all. mitch mcconnell has been silent about the issue. his alies say there's a recommendation that it's here to stay. rick scott put out an aggressive agenda on the conservative, and that doesn't mention the aca at all. key house republicans, including those who want to run the levers of health care policy and members of the freedom caucus

want to move past the repeal conversation. in the 2022 campaign trail, you have to struggle to see any evidence of republicans campaigning on health care, much less repeal of the act. one republican senate candidate, joe o'dea of colorado, told me he supports the affordable care act. he said, "i'm opposed to repealing the affordable care act. there were problems the law had when it was initially react was enacted but those have been resolved. it was one of the most important reforms passed in a generation." why are republicans backing away from this? i have to take you back to 2017 to understand this. republicans had the trifecta then -- the house, the white house, and the senate -- and they attempted to down to affordable care act. it was a disaster. it didn't poll well with the american public and democrats hammered them and it drove them the idea you can't have the nice things like pre-existing protections, without the other

things like the government regulations and the subsidies that make it function. that recognition has gone with republicans and they paid a backlash, a price for it in the 2018 election, and they don't want to go back there anymore. what does this mean? it means after coming one vote away, if supreme court from wiping out the affordable care act, one vote away from congress repealing it, that famous john mccain thumbs down, it looks like president obama's signature achievement is safer than ever and here to say. >> i'm old enough to think this would have been crazy that the republicans would have backed away from their fight to overturn the aca. rick scott, useful for white house in the midterms here, and biden is saying we'll defend this, but talk to us, you said republicans were walking away from the act. tell us about democrats on the campaign trail. is this something they're actively embracing or just trying to say, hey, it's a lot of land and not make that big a deal out of it? how are they approaching it? >> funny you asked that,

jonathan. some democrats i speak to say they don't entirely believe republicans, they won't go back to this if they gain power. senator chris van hollen mentioned that roe v. wade was here to stay and that went away. his quote to me was always be vigilant. there are other dems like senator raphael warnock who is running a tight re-election battle in georgia saying the aca hasn't fully been implemented in part because the medicaid expansion, which is optional for states, has not been taken up by some republican governors, including his state of georgia, and there are hundreds of thousands of his residents and constituents in that coverage back. the argument from democrats is, a, don't believe the republicans because they're not campaigning on its, and there's still more work to be done to fully implement the aca. there's still a fissure even if it's not about the issue of repeal. >> sahil, thank you for that report. it's the piece of technology that controls pretty much all

electronics from cell phones to cars even products like refrigerators and ovens. and now the question is could computer chips be the next global battleground? joining us now, fellow at the american enterprise institute, chris miller. he's the author of a book out tomorrow "chip war. the fight for the world's most critical technology." >> thanks for being with us. as a guest said earlier this morning, you just have to look to the past. in 1989 the author said we japanese don't have to put up with the americans anymore. we make the computer chips that guide their nuclear weapons. they either do what we want them to do or their missiles will fall helplessly into the sea. here we are 30 years later and we've put ourselves in a position of dependence where

chips are come ought of china or taiwan for the most part. how did we put ourself in that position again? >> over the last 30 years, the chips has shifted to east asia, korea, taiwan, to china. today taiwan produces 90% of the world's most advanced processors, iphone, for example, or a pc. so as a result, our access to semiconductors the imperilled by growing u.s./china competition and chinese threats to retake taiwan. and right now, there are many types of chips that we can only acquire from taiwan. they simply can't be made anywhere else in the world. >> is this, chris, because we did not take the warning that we should have 30 years ago? is it negligence or is it we just didn't see it coming? >> there's lot of negligence. we as a country have let the policies shift so that today it's substantially cheaper to build semiconductors in taiwan or in korea largely because tax

incentives that those countries provide make it cheaper to do so. we're beginning to change this. the chips and science act biden signed into law will make a difference, but it's the first of many step wes need. >> certainly the relationship between u.s. and china, which has take an bit of a back seat because of the war in ukraine, about to take center stage again, when biden meets xi jinping next month. tell us about how that rivalry gong forward will be shaped by this battle to make these necessary chips and also how covid slowed it down? >> today china spends more money importing championships than oil. but as a result they're pouring hundreds of billions of dollars in the coming years to domestic its chip technology. right now the u.s. has a real chip choke on china. china can't build the most advanced microchips without our technology, but that's beginning to shift and there's a risk china jumps ahead in a semiconductor arms race and is

able to develop not only commercial technologies but also military technologies as a result. >> the new book is "chip war: the fight for the world's most critical technology." chris miller, thank you much. >> such an important topic. >> absolutely. up next, dr. henry louis gates will be our guest with a look at the new pbs documentary that explores how african americans have created their own social and cultural spaces. the new all-american club. that's a “club” i want to join! let's hear from simone. chuck, that's a club i want to join! i literally just said that. i like her better than you the new subway series. what's your pick? there's a different way to treat hiv. it's every-other-month, injectable cabenuva. for adults who are undetectable, cabenuva is the only complete, long-acting hiv treatment you can get every other month. cabenuva helps keep me undetectable. it's two injections, given by my healthcare provider, every other month. it's one less thing to think about while traveling.

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the very first was chain, the second university of d.c., the third lincoln university. the first independent hbcu funded and founded by black people was this. >> since 1837, more than 100 historically black colleges and yumptss have been founded in the united states. most of them in a half-century following the civil war and most in the south, where 90% of the black population lived until the start of the great migration. these institutions educated the vast majority of black college

graduates, intent upon building a new future for themselves and for race. >> in 1881, booker t. washington is called from hampton, rhodes, virginia, where he's been a student and is now the most eminent of the graduates who are now working at hampton. he's called to open a school in rural macon county, alabama, tuskegee. >> from the creation of the country's first hbcus to the gains made during the civil rights movement, a new pbs series is examining black america's ability to prosper in the face of systemic racism and discrimination. joining us now, host and executive producer of the documentary series sbits led "making black america through the grapevine," dr. henry louis gates jr. he's also the director of the hutchens center for african american research at harvard university. welcome back to the show.

it's great to have you. who will we see and what will we learn in this four-part series? >> good morning. it's great to be back. what did black people do when the color curtain came crashing down? you look at a lot of hollywood movies, standard accounts are that all we did was complain and fight back. of course, we did fight back politically. just as importantly, we replicated the social world from which we were excluded by racists. if there was a white version of an organization which we were prevented from joining, what did we do? we formed a black version. whether it was the american medical association, american dental association, american law association, which excluded black people. we formed the national dental association, the national bar association. that was important to refuse to

allow your oppressor to define your entire existence. so our people did, just like our jewish brothers and sisters did, we replicated the universe from which we are excluded behind what w.e.b. dubois called the veil of racism. it's one of the great triumphs. in the four-hour series, we lift that veil. we start with the masons in 1775, a year before the signing of the declaration of independence, the first black sector institution was founded and it was the black masons. the funny story is the americans wouldn't let this black man, prince hall in boston, and his buddies, they wouldn't let him join, so they went to british troops stationed in massachusetts and got the right to become masons and eventually

got their charter, again, from england, and not from the united states. since 1775, people have been talking about this invisible network that united black people together, even under slavery. john adams was the first person to notice that black people had formed what we now call the grapevine. this is what he said in his diary, a few months after the battles of lexington and concord, "black people have a wonderful way of communicating intelligence about themselves. it will run several hundred miles in a week or a fortnight." and booker t. washington named that the grapevine telegraph and we see it today in the digital world on black twitter. this has united our people from 1775. what i wanted to do was talk about the vibrancy, the amount of agency it takes to refuse to allow white supremacy to define who you are as a people.

and that took an enormous amount of effort. and it allowed people to keep their dignity. in the white world, if they were insulted, no one would call them by miss or mister, they would call them offensive names. you come back home within the veil and you could be and you c officer in a fraternity, sorority, in your church. you could achieve and acquire dignity through these social networks and social organizations. >> so this is an extraordinary story. i'm just curious, we all -- for people who do extraordinary things, we read history and we look and we see that people who accomplish extraordinary things all stand on the shoulders of giants. who were some of the giants that these african american leaders were standing on? who were the people that really shaped and guided this movement at the beginning? >> well, you know, a lot of the

heroes in this story are anonymous people. take the -- one of my favorite stories occurs in atlanta, georgia, in 1881. al sharpton will love this. the atlanta washerwomen strike. these were 20 women who were, you know, just out of slavery, right? this is the end of reconstruction, the beginning of redemption, 1881. and they go on strike. they're doing laundry for rich white people. they go on strike. they take on the city of atlanta. the city of atlanta puts a $25 surtax on them thinking they're going to break them. meanwhile, they're organizing in the black community. eventually they have 3,000 members. they pay the surcharge and refuse to buckle. and in a month atlanta raises their wages. these are the kind of heroes, unsung heroes that black history is replete with. what we need to do is to tell their stories.

so there were prominent leaders, like w.e.b. due boy, fredry douglas's successor, people like that. but there were anonymous leaders of these institutions as well. one of the most important organizations was called the royal knights of king david. the voice writes in philadelphia, black people have so many fraternities and sororities, i don't have room to list them all. there was the for women order of the eastern star. but for the men, john merick was a barber with five barbershops. black barbers didn't have a black clientele. they serviced, if they were successful, white people. and so he formed this fraternity. and they started to contribute money to have each other buried. and 15 years later, you know, he

wakes up, a light bulb goes off and said i can form a life insurance company. and it becomes north carolina mutual life insurance company, founded in 1898 by john merrick and some of his buddies. it becomes the biggest black business in the world literally. we were raised with stories about north carolina mutual. you can see how a social organization has a huge economic pale. >> dr. gates, i think it's a fascinating study. and i do concede i've never heard of the washerwoman's strike. you got me on that one. let me ask you to elaborate on how it also gave blacks a self-that you did not have and when you had to deal with the other world. you know, your last great work on the black church, i grew up

in the black church. so i never had a feeling of inferiority. because even though a lot of the people in the church were john tors, domestic workers. they were the trustees. jesse jackson came through. i am somebody. it gave us what looked like an alternative universe but a self-esteem into the mainstream world that could not be broken down. explain that. i know in the grapevine that is an under occurring theme. >> the most important political act of all when you're fighting, you know, a huge war against white supremacy was refusing to allow people who hated you because of your color to define who you are in your head. and the only way to fight

against that, because everything in society represented a black person as ugly, inferior, stupid, animal-like, lascivious, loose. you know, just the opposite of all that a civilized person was. so you could either succumb to that or you could build it a world behind. and within that world you had to prepare your children to fight against the demeaning images they would confront as soon as they left the confines of their home or the supportive environment of their neighborhood, especially through the church. the church was primary but it wasn't only enough. al, i see these -- my series as part and part 2. the black church is the sacred social network and making black

america is unveiling the secular social networks, which were extensive. you know, after all, you went to church on sunday, prayer meeting on wednesday. but you had a whole lot of other team. they had a lot of free time. in that free time, you joined the eastern star, the owls, the elks. there are a lot of other things we found. the afternoon grove theater in 1821, when they were performing richard iii and othello and king lear for primarily ballad audiences. that existed for two years. who would have thought black people 40 years before the outbreak of the civil war were performing shakespeare. but they were. and they did everything that was happening in the white society, they did behind the veil.

even drag balls. get this. there is one of my favorite characters is william dorsey swy. he started holding drag balls in washington, d.c. as early as the 1880s. and i'm sure the sisters in the church were not crazy about this brother. but the point is that he did it. even his drag balls were reviewed. this is one review from 1887. i've got to read this. it says they all wore corsets, long hose, slippers and everything that goes to make a female's dress complete. and he had these drag balls every year between 1882 and 1896. and during the harlem renaissance of the 1920s, hamilton number 710 began holding drag balls every year as well. so we were just as complex as anybody else in the world. and being able to reveal that complexity gives me an enormous amount of pleasure and

constitutes a political statement about the african american people. >> "making black america through the grapevine" premieres tomorrow night on pbs. thank you for that preview. thank you for being on this morning. and that does it for us this morning. jose diaz-balart picks up msnbc live coverage in two minutes. live coverage in two minutes for more on the new boss, here's patrick mahomes. incredible - meatballs, fresh mozzarella and pepperon- oh, the meatball's out! i thought he never fumbles. the new subway series. what's your pick? my asthma felt anything but normal. a blood test helped show my asthma is driven by eosinophils, which nucala helps reduce. nucala is a once-monthly add-on injection for severe eosinophilic asthma.

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good morning. 10:00 a.m. eastern, 7:00 pacific. i'm jose diaz-balart. happening right now, fema is conducting its largest search and rescue effort ever in the aftermath of hurricane ian, five days after the monster storm battered parts of florida. >> i had to evacuate and everything. and now i've lost everything. all -- everything. my life savings, my tools, everything. we'll bring you a live report on the ground. this hour, president biden and first lady are