♪♪ hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. look around in the long dark shadow the disgraced ex-president looms over democratic trend in american politics today. there is the alarming threat of political violence normalized and encouraged by donald trump and his allies had the gop and some of the right-wing media. new reporting in "the new york times" that reveals that talk of civil war has sfieked online in the wake of the fbi searching donald trump's private club and residence and that experts are bracing for threats and intimidation from a group of people, quote, influenced by mr. trump's complaints about the washington swamp and deep state

forces working against him and his allies. concerns are mounting that we could see more than mere spikes of violence as we near the midterm elections. a motley crop of trump acolytes are running on the ticket in states across the country. it includes, and this is by no means a comprehensive list, election deniers, covid vaccine skeptics, a celebrity doctor pedaling quack medical cures and a former football star under fire for allegedly paying for a girlfriend's abortion while advocating for a near total ban on abortion. >> this is one of the great tricks that i think the sexual revolution pulled on the american populous, this idea, okay, these marriages were fundamental, you know, they were maybe even violent but certainly they were unhappy. and so getting rid of them and making it easier for people to shift spouses like they change

their underwear, that's going to make people happy in the long term. >> 250,000 illegals cross this boarder every month. this is an invasion. >> i pray for the leaders also in the federal government, god, on the 6th of january that they rise up with boldness. bless these letters president trump asked me to send outlining the fraud in pennsylvania. >> a group filled to the brim with unvetted candidates with extreme wacky conspiracy-based muse and they have won the republican nominations largely because they come with donald trump's seal of approval. that seal of approval is the quintessential trump being quid pro quo. they have embraced his paranoid conspiratorial and authoritarian impulses and remains to be see if the bill that comes due should any of them win includes trump's efforts to overturn his electoral defeat.

it's something we cover here as a national and domestic security threat and war daungd story. it is also a hugely consequential political story and no journalist in the country understands all those facets of the trump story better than the journalist associated with it, maggie haberman. she has unearthed more damaging and revealing details about donald trump than any other reporter on the beat. but because her access to trump and his inner circle can feel incessant, she sometimes gets lumped into our feeling of being inundated by crazy. in her brand-new book confidence man she says this about trump. in the movement that he has spawned, quote, among his most consistent attributes are a desire to grind down his opponents, his refusal to be shamed or voluntarily step way from the fight. his projection that things will somehow always work out in his favor and his refusal to accept

the way life and business or politics has traditionally been conducted. he grew anger over time, especially when he faced one investigation after another. from prosecutors but also political opponents. yet precisely what was causing that anger was besides the point. a core tenant of the trump political movement has been finding publicly acceptable targets to serve as receptacles for pre-existing anger. that anger helped signal his supporters who are bound to him more by common enemies, liberals, the media, tech companies, government regulators than shared ideals. that's where we begin with the aforementioned maggie haberman. senior political reporter at "the new york times." part of a team that has won multiple pulitzers for their coverage of donald trump. this is the cover. joe kleine wrote a fantastic review about it. i think people schaknow if they haven't read it yet you widen the lens. it's full of scoops.

you have been asked about a lot of them. we have exclusive sound from your interview with trump. i want to ask about the process of covering him every day and diving in and writing this and looking at him even more closely and more intensely for a long period of time. what was that like? >> it was intense, nicole. this was a portrait that i wanted to paint, a larger portrait, a character study of donald trump and of the milieu he came from, of the world that created him, the force forces i family that created him, his character that led to where we got here, he took advantage of moments in history in new york city and then nationally and then exported new york rules and what ted cruz described as new york values is really what trump did, but not in a socially liberal way, did export to wash and the republican party. that is what we see now and everything you just described in our political system. >> he talks about one of the

republicans in the news and you shared some exclusive sound about herschel walker and it's as good of a story as any to jump into the damage he has wrought on our politics. let me lay that sound. thank you for sharing this with us. this is from an interview you did before this week's scandal threatened -- i don't know if anything threatens anyone any more but before in broke. >> think about georgia. in georgia, herschel, they did the ballot to herschel. they did ballots. do you know how great a football player he is? do you know that he was in the university of georgia. he was betts football player in the nation by far. he's the best football flair player in the history of georgia. and for the most part -- you know, as a running back, he is a top running back. >> yeah, but he has a complicated personal history which is what they are worried about. >> he does, but you know it's a personal history ten years ago maybe should have been a problem, 20 years ago would have been a bigger problem, i don't

think it's a problem today. >> why is that? why do you think -- >> the world is changing. >> he changed the world. i mean, i think that even roy moore might survive in this climate. does he see it that way? >> he wouldn't say it. i was trying to get him to acknowledge some of that. he didn't want to go there. he absolutely knows it. now, he thinks that because he survived any number of scandals in 2016 he has shown politicians they don't have to, and he did acknowledge this is a changing landscape. but his point about ten years ago, 20 years ago, some of it does predate him and it goes back to the tea party era, the beginning of it. but he has created a new bar and a relativism that has seeped into the fabric of political and public life. >> is it a bar or is it the elimination of a new bar? >> the lowering of bar and erosion of a bar. in the case of herschel walker, we are going to find out whether

there is still a bar. what we are talking about with herschel walker is different than the "access hollywood" tape which was ultimately a tape and not proof of an action or an allegation of a specific physical act although certainly trump was talking about it and boast being it. but we are going to find out if the rules changed as broadly as trump is trying to suggest they did or if trump managed to survive things that other people couldn't. >> and i think the lasting stain of "access hollywood" tape on the republican party was glorgfying sexual assault. he was describing -- >> absolutely. >> enthusiastic manner and the republican party green lighting that began its journey down this path. does he want the herschel walkers to win, to prove his point? does he want nor damaged republicans in the party? >> he wants to show that nothing matters. and i write about this, one of his goals is that he believes that everyone is just like him, everything is a transaction, everything can be exchanged, everything can be reduced to a deal. there are no red lines.

so to show that there are no red lines, always makes him happy. >> the first page of the prologue opens up with an extraordinary illuminating anecdote about covering him on questions of race, and i want to ask you, do you think he is a racist? >> i think he says and does racist things over a very long period of time. i don't know how else you would define it. somebody incorporating racial paranoia into his public persona since the 19d 80s, the central park case, teenagers were charge inside that case and they were all teenagers of color, and he called for bringing back the death penalty and he still won't apologize even though -- doing that. he was right, even though there is proof now that their confessions were coerced by officials. so you go from there through the white house. you know, he repeatedly says

racist things and then says he was taken out of context. but at a certain point i am not sure how much benefit of the doubt people are supposed to give him. >> tell us the story. i mean, when he is caught -- when his racism is revealed, all he wants to know is, in the case of the story you tell, what does he need to say to get out of that news cycle? >> this was a moment in the campaign. it was may 5th of 2016 and it was the day of the indiana primary. this was not the first time that david duke, the notorious anti-semite, had been celebrating donald trump. and he had previously been very slow to disavow david duke. and i write about how one of his advisors had urged him to do so earlier and he said we don't have to do it right away. a lot of those people vote. in this instance david duke was condemning the jewish extremists he said were after trump. i emailed the campaign looking for a comment. trump called me back. weighs there with his two jewish

lawyers and read a statement which antisemitism has no place in our society which should be united and not divided. there was a pause. i said, that's it? he said what do you need me to say. that is the defining ethos of his approach to life. he says what he has to say to get through ten minutes of time. >> and to you have any sense of what he believes? >> he has these id-like impulses on issues like trade, which we has been consistent on. you know, he has antipathy for global alliances and the post-world war ii order and that's consistent but they are loose and diffused how he describes it. they are not really based in history. and he is willing to sublminate those impulses if there is something he can gain. >> take us through sort of the body of reporting of the effort to turn him into something different than what you just described. >> throughout the campaign there

was this effort to turn him into something that could pass for a conventional nominee. we all saw it in real time. we would be assured he was going to start being more presidential. he was going to give, you know -- >> i am going to be so presidential. >> i can be so presidential echl would look at a quote from him, look at the teleprompter and read and he would sound as if he was reading the speech for the first time and these words were totally unfamiliar and then tweet and then he would undo it. and he even had a moment when he said i will be so presidential at another moment he said i am not changing. and that was him. he was never going to change. but republicans, you know, those who didn't like him and those who did made sort of this, you know, uncomfortable piece to try to get him over the finish line and then he proceeded on the very first day to start fight being his crowd size and that set the tone for the four years. >> i keep thinking about that first day. he goes to the cia and he is so

ignorant/disdainful of their mission that he is standing there at the cia in front. wall of the unnamed people who died serving their mission, bragging about fight being his crowd size. and if you connect that dot to what's going on right now, i talked to sue fword with on this program, it's clear he never appreciated either in terms of what was on the page or what went into putting information on a page, the pdb. what other than the letters to and from kim jong-un, which you write about how much he loved him and i listened to the audio of him telling you how neat they are and lying, it appears, about where they are, what do you think he is -- along with those letters? >> could be anything under the sun. >> but what -- >> was he interested in? >> yeah. >> he was interested in photographs. he was interested in information about other leaders. one of the most interesting piece there is he had some kind

of information about emanuel macron, the french president. that could be anything under the sun. one former government official made the point to me that u.s. presidents are given a classified briefing and declassified briefing when they are having foreign leader meetings and they were speculating about which one of these could be. he is obsessed with other people's secrets, information about other people and obsessed with looking that he has something you don't know. i think this was going to be anything like that. sue gordon made a comment to us about these documents that was dead on about how he views everything. if he sees everything in terms of leverage. and what that means again in any given moment can change, but i to believe that's a big part of what this was. >> what was it like to see these people that are had covered go in and try to play the part of white house staffers knowing, as you knew them, that jared kushner didn't have any traditional experience to have the job he had, let alone

couldn't vet out of the clearance process, that ivanka made a mockery, brought nepotism into the center of the west wing of the white house. what was it like and then largely failed in their -- the jobs they said they were going to do. will they also created strive with people like john kelly and others there that were there to i guess normalize is the best word donald trump. >> the strive is what came through in every interview, literally every interview i did. a number of people who complained that the presence of trump's relatives in the white house, whatever policy piece jared kushner got done, they weren't things that the president cared about because kushner had his own -- >> what? >> abraham accords, criminal justice reform which he continues to complaining about. he said something to the effect did it for african americans, got zero credit and that's how he saw it.

there was a pervasive sense for people working in the white house that it was problematic. there are nepotism laws for a reason and it's always complicated even without concerns about having two family members who are wealthy and who didn't divest from businesses. it's just complicated. it creates complications for staff. trump has a reluctance to confront his family. so he charged on kelly, the white house chief of staff, with fixing things and then trump proceeded to undermine it and look at kelly as a way to get rid of his relatives, but then wouldn't acknowledge that. it was a mess. >> you have some incredible details that we didn't know at the time. i think one of them is the story you are telling. he wants kelly to fire them, but doesn't want -- >> correct. >> what were the most violent clashes inside the white house we didn't know about at the time? >> there were a number of them. they tend today relate to things, you know, some of which

we had visibility into. i don't know how violence it is. it's a, for instance, relating to the intel piece we were talking about. he tweeted out a sensitive image of an iranian facility and that caused consternation for officials at the time. this was in, i think in 2019. officials are frantically trying to take off the classification. he still tweeted it out. he said if you take off the classification, quote, that's the sexy part. that was the kind of thing that drove officials crazy. obviously, you mentioned the jared and ivanka piece. trump had a terrible blowup with joseph mcguire, the head of the director of national intelligence at one point in early 2020 where he exploded on him for briefing adam schiff. we knew portions of that. but i have some real detail about how that went. >> tell us about it. >> he gets called in. it's valentine's day. trump in the middle of a briefing -- and there are three guest briefers there in front. resolute desk.

starts screaming, why is my dni briefing adam schiff. he hates adam schiff. adam schiff has been a vocal trump critic and was, you know, trumpeting aspects of the mueller investigation and house investigation. and trump is just bellowing. it's not clear to what end. and almost everybody else in the room is sitting there and mcguire is pushing back. one of briefers says this is not what happened, this is not how it went. and eventually it just ends. mcguire, who is clearly rattled, decides he can't continue this, tells everyone to leave. and bet saner, who was one of trump's most consistent intel breefrs throughout the presidency stops and says, mr. president we, not here to hurt you. we are not out to get you. trump, who is always afraid of one-on-one interpersonal confrontation says i know. he had this blowup aimed at a show of force and then says, i know, and tries to end it on a peaceful note. and that's the kind of thing,

nicole, it's not just a clash. it's not just an aggressive interaction. it's that he leaves people disoriented and whipsawed. that was one of those incidents that i think illustrated it that. >> cassidy hutchinson gave the general public its most intimate view of what that was like, describing the food thrown against the wall, the violent rejection of calling off the insurrection even when mike pence's life was in danger. how many cassidy hutchinsons were there? >> it's having that you ask that. one of the themes i write about, two. one is how much violence informs his sense of strength and what makes someone strong. that, in turn, informs what he thinks a good boss makes. there is two incidents in the book. and i learned of a third after i was done writing the book. he throws things. so in one instance in 1990, an executive of his company quits and according to a friend he throws something at the person. the friend believed it was a

shoe. in another incident when he learned that james comey was not getting charged in 2019 and barr is making clear we are not doing this, trump then spends the day calling one person after the other don't you think he should be charged? at one pauses and picks up the television remote and smashes it into a credenza in the oval office dining room where there is a television. there is a third, in a fury he didn't like where he was staying in israel on his trip there and didn't want to sign the guest book and threw the pen at an aide. this is a running theme. >> i had heard that the kinds of things that bother him the most were some of the critiques that stormy daniels wrote about, about his virility, the appearance of his private parts. what do you think about the way the political fights just don't allow for anyone to purge him where it actually hurts? if a porn star can do the most damage to him, what does that say about anyone that could run against him? >> i think we are going to see

how much his potential rivals in the republican primary are willing to take. a lot of people talk of ron desantis and everybody talks about how willing they are to go into the trump meat grinder until they get there. you point about the virility point. an anecdote in the book is trump was kicked off twitter and one advisor was asked about this on fox news, asked if trump was felt or was emasculated by this. the aide responded he is the most masculine person to serve as president. trump called the aide to say that was the right thing to say and then had another aide play him the video repeatedly. so, you know, this is a theme with him. strength and manhood and manliness and so forth. >> size of everything. >> that said, he runs over people with it. to go back to the desantis point, we saw marco rubio in between trying to act like trump and ted cruz talked a good game about the things he wasn't going to stand for and now ted cruz is one of trump's closest allies.

>> one of the most incredible -- and lindsey graham. you dedicate the book to the family. in covering him, being so closely -- i mean, was that a fair description of your being so associated with them and the reporting and because of the pace of his trespasses, there is a pace of having to cover him and he is frenetic. so covering him, there is a frenetic amount of reporting that you have to do. i know you take a lot of give on twitter. i am sure this take a toll on all of your inputs coming in. you dedicate the book to your family. what has covering trump been like for you as a person and your family? >> i appreciate the characterization. this is not always easy on my family. you know, they are very supportive of what i do. but, you know, this is -- we are not curing cancer. what we are doing is very important. but i do this jub with an intensity and he demands an intensity, to your point, as a coverage subject.

it has had easier than other moments. i try to enjoy the slow times. >> there are no slow times. i want to ask you one more question because i, you know, he tagged me on twitter once. he tags you on twitter -- >> when he was on twitter, yes. >> you interviewed him three times for the book. he sounds like -- i have listened to a lot of the audio. he sounds like in his demented sociopathic way he is trying to answer some of your questions. >> that was my sense. >> but he attacks you on twitter, which could endanger you of one of his lunatics. how do you scare? as a human being having to exist with both of those versions of him, how do you scare that? >> you have to keep on -- his problems are not my problems. what he is going to do is not what i'm going to do. we are covering a sub jelk and i am trying to get information. in some cases in the interviews he is the only person who can answer some of these questions which is why i ask them and i

sought the information. but you are correct. one of his ways of approaching people, not just journalists, anyone in his life, is to punch you in the face and come back and say but i didn't knock your teeth out, it's not that bad. i think that's what some of this is, you know. it's always hard to know with him how angry he actually is versus what is sort of feeder or wrestling style behavior. write about this in the book. he saw me on television talking about how much television he watches, which he would say he only knew because he was watching television. he was obsessing about it because he boroughs down on tiny things, especially when he has anxiety on other issues or pressing ners matters that are stressing him. and he kept talking about it and raising it with people and i remember having this conversation with one of his aides who was sort of taken aback and didn't know what to make of it. but that one is because he thinks anyone talking about how much television he watches is

insulting his intelligence. that goes back to your thing. >> virility and lack of intelligence. >> yes. >> one more question about what you think happens next in the trump story. does he announce he is running? does he win? >> i think he announces he is running and i think he has a formidable republican primary even with the investigations. not all of the polling. some of the polling indicates that he really has not taken on much water even despite the year he had. and for him that's one the things he takes into this. look, back to the beginning of this conversation, look, no one cares. i could shoot someone on fifth avenue and no one would care. >> you're right about that assessment. all of your stories have ended up on this program one way or another. for all of your incredible reporting and scoops, they sometimes broke at 3:57 and we would read them on the air. you are such a prolific journalist covering the most harrowing and having worked

there. so things were unbelievable to me and heartbreaking. the things happening there. for bringing them to light, thank you for your body of work and thank you for being here. >> thank you. >> confidence man the making of donald trump and the breaking of america is out now. thank you so much for being here. when we come back the frins of society and the internet. talk of civil war goes mainstream. threats of violence and rebellion are growing as the legal troubles for the ex-president stir the pot. our political pal joins us and what can be done about it. president biden and governor ron desantis an odd couple if there ever was one, met on the historic and tragic devastation that has hit so many floridians this week. both pledging to put politics aside. the president's remarks later in the program. republicans running to defund. scandal plagued herschel walker blaming everyone from the media to his son but ignoring the very flashing red signals that told

him to stay away from him in the first place. those stories and more after a quick break. d more after a quick break. ♪ what will you do? will you make something better? create something new? our dell technologies advisors can provide you with the tools and expertise you need to bring out the innovator in you. ♪♪ with hand-crafted steakburgers and chicken sandwiches. there's a perfect plate for everyone. great value for all your favorites only from ihop. download the app and earn free food with every order. wait, i don't do tai chi. i don't do most of the things you see in medicare health insurance commercials. cut! all the ads look the same because the insurance companies all see us the same. humana is different. they get to know you and listen to what you need. they have all-in-one humana medicare advantage plans with medical and prescription drug coverage. most plans include vision,

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our dell technologies advisors can provide you with the tools and expertise you need to bring out the innovator in you. he certainly has no limits on engineering violence from the other side, from no limits on justifying it for anything that he thinks is a good cause. there is nothing stopping him from rising up, becoming a great hero and a martyr and a leader all at once.

and doing this again. >> a warning from the ex-wife of the oath keepers founder stewart rhodes. he and four members of the group face trial this week for seditious conspiracy charges stemming from their roles in january 6th. prosecutors say two days after the 2020 election rhodestectioned other members, we aren't getting through this without a civil war which prosecutors say led to their planning of the armed rebellion. today "the new york times" has an alarming review about how that kind of reckless rhetoric echoing the ex-president and allies normalized the expectations and the acceptance of political violence now nearly two years later. talk of civil war has skyrocketed online in the weeks since the fbi's search of mar-a-lago. "the new york times" writes tweets mentions civil war before and after trump announced the sedge of his home, in the five

preceding days they logged average 500 tweets an hour that jumped to 6,000 in the first hour after trump published a post on true social on the afternoon of august 8th saying these are dark times for our nation. the pace peaked at 15,000 tweets later that evening. a weak later six times higher than the baseline. joining our conversation cornell belcher, a democratic pollster and president of brilliant corners research, also an msnbc political analyst. also former republican congressman and msnbc contributor david jelly and miles taylor, who has been talking about the danger of political violence for as long as i have known him. former chief of staff the homeland security joins us. miles, this already yielded tragic consequences, an armed attack on an fbi office, unprecedented threat environments and warnings for nara, for the irs, and for the

fbi, and this uptick of, i guess, in the pre and post-9/11 era we called it chatter. now they are just tweets and some of them are in other right wing sites, but out in the open talking about what they plan to do. >> yeah, nicole, chatter is that operative word. it's a word that provoked i think a fear sort of an nom nous feeling post-9/11 and now it is back in the public lexicon. i think it's the only way to describe the volume of what we are seeing. it's beyond just one or two or three potential suspects. we are talking about federal investigators that span the entire country. right now there are domestic terrorism investigations in all 50 states, and think about the january 6th insurrection itself. that was a 50-state conspiracy. we've had people charged and arrested in almost every single

state in the country, at least suspects in every single state, and we missed it. so much like 9/11, we had the ability to connect the dots. we had the information. but in this case, because donald trump so actively downplayed domestic terrorism, and i saw it firsthand inside his administration, agencies like dhs and fbi took their eye off the ball. it's something we need to be concerned about now. historians will look back and point to joe biden's inaugural address when he became president where he says we are entering -- we have an un-civil war had this country. this will be the theme of this period. and when i talk to democracy scholars, there is two things that they point out are on the horizon for our country from a public safety standpoint. one word that i keep hearing is political assassinations. it's a very scary term to hear. we are seeing a volume of threat reporting that almost seems like it's just a matter of time.

the second word i keep hearing is soft secession. it's kind of under the circus right now. but there is a rising call for movements in various states across the country and indeed around the world for soft secessionist movements. we saw a poll last year that showed that 65% of republicans in the south belief their state should secede from the union. you will see a lot of political tumult and i think that will lead to public safety threats. >> david, it is not being manufactured at the grassroots level, it's directed from on high. donald trump tweeted this about civil war in 2019. his removal from office, quote, will cause a civil war like fracture in this nation from which our country will never heal, end quote. last month trump said there would be, quote, problems in the country the likes of which perhaps we have never been seen before, end quote, if he were to be legally held accountable. lindsey graham went on tv and

warned of riots in the street. they are telling us what they plan to incite their supporters to do. it feels like it's on us if we don't listen to them. >> yeah, and it's happening in plain sight, nicole. i'm glad you kind of went through those comments because this is actually a week where the focus of the country could very easily be on this issue of the threat of white nationalism and political violence and it's related to the oath keepers trial that we are following. there is a lot of testimony that is public, recordings, some of it related to january 6th, some of it related to previous moments, but what it pieces together very simply is this. the leading white nationalism group in the united states whose foundational premise is one of racism and race violence is on tape discussing violence and the third element is they are also on tape saying they are waiting for direction from donald trump fofrmtz think about that. the basics of this problem, this

threat we face, that miles experienced at dhs in his work and leading intelligence voices have testified on capitol hill. we have white nationalism prone for violence waiting on a political trigger to say now is the time. that's what we're seeing unfold in the oath keepers trial. we are also seeing it in real time coming out of the mar-a-lago search, coming out of lindsey graham's comments and it's very real. and what i am very intrigued about, we may have discussed this coming out of the mar-a-lago search, donald trump knew in that moment that tinderbox he could control. if donald trump in that moment had said now is the time, i'm running for re-election, you are with me or against me, now is the time we beat back the deep state, that would have triggered violence. it also would have triggered a political control of the party, but he didn't. and i will always wrestle with wondering why did he not do that? he knew the power he had in that moment. he still has the power today and

that's the danger we face. >> most of donald trump coming up short you could chalk up to incompetence, not a lack of will to stir as much chaos and dissent and violence, his will has been clearly articulated over the years. cornell, i want to ask you about this added layer of consequences. all of the framing around what merrick garland will or will not do swirls around this wholly inaccurate access, it would bust a norm, we've never done this, only in other countries do we prosecute a member of another political party. it never swirls around the access the things he vest dpated the most. the led the prosecution of oklahoma city. the country is, whether you like it or not, whether you want to say it or not, whether you want to hear the stories or not, we are facing a domestic violence extremism threat the likes of which in our lifetime we only saw in the years after 9/11 as a foreign extremist threat in this country.

it is motivated by, according to chris wray, donald trump's handpicked director of the fbi, white supremacy and grievances, the most frequent cite inside the reporting is the lie about the election. what in your screw is the right approach not -- in your view is the right approach to beating this back from a security standpoint? >> good question. and let me, before i go forward, go backwards here. that was an excellent interview you had with maggie. >> thank you so much. >> it was a good interview. one reason why i watch the show is i actually learn stuff. and but one of the things that i thought was interesting is the exchange you and maggie had, it was an uncomfortable exchange because maggie said, pair phrase you asked about him being racist and she said he has said and

done racist things over the years. i think that kind of makes him a racist, right? but that's the uneasy or uncomfortable part about this conversation that most americans have. and we've got to be better at having this conversation about racism. even among our progressive friends, we read white liberals, they don't want to have a conversation about racism. they want ro is a conversation about economics. we have to be more comfortable having a conversation what is driving the oath keepers is, in fact, their white nationalism. let me say this. so we came out of the field with a poll, national poll, for the center for human rights diving into both civil rights and human rights issues, and that poll 78% of americans agree that democracy is under threat.

what is interesting is that republicans and democrats and independents all fall in that same range. not a lot of difference. i would argue i think that what republicans are seeing as democracy under threat is driven by the big lie that their country has been stolen from them. in the same poll, 54% majority of americans agree that we are on the pathway to civil war. what's frightening about that is there is a 10 to 12 point difference between what republicans agree we are on a path to civil war and what independents and democrats agree we are on a path to civil war. americans do get. >> this and i think the question becomes we also have the power to fix this. you know, merrick garland, the justice department aside, yes, they should absolutely treat everyone the same under the law. but the beauty of our country is that we, the people, have the power to fix this. we got a lot of problems in our democracy but it's still working.

and by either electing or rejecting all of these -- and we talked about this on your show before. rejecting all these election deniers, people who would overturn elections, americans, you have the power to change this. you know your democracy is under a threat. so the question is, you know, looking at you, america, what are you gonna do about if? >> i am so glachltd i think even i do this. i dive into domestic violence extremism in the middle. but you don't get from the middle to the end in a way that makes us safe without going back to the beginning which is rooted in white nationalism which is rooted in racism. . so you have to fix the racism before you can deal with the radicalized and willing to engage in groups. i want to ask you to stick around through a quick break. we will talk about how many on the right are blaming president biden. yeah, for the violence that could come. don't go anywhere. don't go anywhere.

once upon a time, at the magical everly estate, landscaper larry and his trusty crew...

were delayed when the new kid totaled his truck. timber... fortunately, they were covered by progressive, so it was a happy ending... for almost everyone. ♪ ♪ ♪i'm so defensive,♪ ♪i got bongos thumping in my chest♪ ♪and something tells me they don't beat me♪ ♪ ♪ ♪he'd better not take the ring from me.♪ we are back. i have cornell to thank for deepening this conversation. miles, we need to deal with the racism in a way that's authentic in every vein. the accept al right-wing commentary around the sadistic movement of migrants from texas

to martha's vineyard included analysis of whether or not it was smart politics for desantis. racism has infect the the right so completely that even people who don't view themselves as pedaling the most base forms of it in service of donald trump are trafficking in what is all racially motivated political gamesmanship. how do you cleanse -- i mean, it seems like you have to lose elections for several cycles to sort of purge the acceptance of racism from the bottom, from the gutter all the way up to the more sort of acceptable republicans. >> yeah, look, i hope that people like liz cheney are successful in reforming the republican party. but as david and i can attest to as former republicans, we didn't feel like that was going terribly well. i spent at least a year out there hoping we would find the level of support within the gop we needed to swing the pendulum

back, to get away from this talk of civil war and, you know, the great replacement theory and qanon. the things that have actually taken over the majority of the gop base, if you look at the polls, actually. the majority of republicans believe in the great replacement theory, believe in the core tenants of qanon, and increasingly have favorable attitudes towards political violence. it's not a party i wanted to be in. i am sad to say i don't think the pendulum is swinging back within the republican party. it's one of the reasons i left. most republicans aren't going to join the democratic party. if we can per wade them to leave the gop and come to something like the forward party or start their own third parties, we can start to show the republicans that they will lose if they don't come back from the extreme fringes of american politics. and there are a lot of pro-democracy moderate republicans out there, millions of them across this country, who

are silent and they are silent for the things that we've talked about on this program, is they learn when they speak up against it, they are met with intimidation, met with hostility, and worse now they are worried about being met with violence. we cannot forget that again liz cheney and others have said that their colleagues in congress have been scared to vote their conscience because they are worried they will go home and be attacked or have family members killed. that's the environment that we're in right now. and the last thing i would add to that, nicole, you said we have to go back to the source, and when i went into the executive branch when trump was president, i didn't believe that in his heart of hearts that guy was a racist. until i sat down with him. until i in discussions in the oval office i saw trump say he didn't want people from places like haiti and nigeria and kenya and somalia to come in the

united states and then list off countries he liked, denmark, norway, iceland, sweden, nordic countries, he wanted blonde white people to come in and he didn't want brown skinned, dark skinned people to come to the united states. that was can't come to any othe conclusion that the fact he wanted blonde white people to come in and didn't want brown skin people to come into the united states. that was jarring to me and that's where this emmates from is a man who has pursued, implemented and championed policies that are inherently racist at their core. >> yeah, we have presented the reporting and evidence that proves beyond any reasonable doubt that donald trump is a racist. the only way to immediately deal with the threat of domestic extremism and of the violence --

we don't have a time to create a bible for a party. it's on the ballot whether -- i'm happy to give anyone space to talk about other parties and we should have that conversation in a wholesome manner, but the other side of that conversation is that in five weeks the truth is democratic candidates still small "d" democrats believe in democracy and republicans is lurching towards autocratic practices. everyone is going to stick around. david jolly, we're going to get your reaction to the comments from president joe biden. we'll play it for you next. don't go anywhere. it for you nt don't go anywhere.

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what do state, local, and federal officials need to do differently to prevent future loss of life? >> in terms of its -- first of all, the biggest thing the governor has done and so many others have done is they recognize there's a thing called global warming. the world is changing. it's changing. >> president joe biden there complimenting florida governor ron desantis today during his tour of the florida.

david jolly, your reaction. >> it's clear that the state of florida and federal partners are working together, and that's a good thing. joe biden, ron desantis carrying the right message today. there will be some hard questions. do we rebuild an area now vulnerable after three major hurricanes in five years? those are hard questions. but in terms of reimbursement and having expenses coordinated and insurance, today was a good day to see the coordination between biden and desantis. if i could offer a quick note to it previous conversations because it's so important, nicole, this question about could there be a civil war is not related to the big lie. it's because donald trump told white america six years ago their way of life and their privilege was being taken from them. civil war around the big lie does not exist without the issue of race. cornell was absolutely right to bring that up. >> the three of us are going to put a pin in this and start over tomorrow because i think all the

conversations about domestic violence extremism are very important, but i don't think if we don't start at the beginning and sort of move the conversation back to the starting line we don't get at anything really tangible and profound. we'll do that another day this week. thank you so much, especially you, cornell. up next the continued fallout from these allegations of republican senate candidate herschel walker. don't go anywhere. we'll be right back. alker. don't go anywhere. we'll be right back. tide hygenic clean free. hypoallergenic and safe for sensitive skin.

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the top 2 causes are vehicles and wildfires. prop 30 helps clean our air. it will reduce the tailpipe emissions that poison our air kevin: and helps prevent the wildfires that create toxic smoke that's why calfire firefighters, the american lung association, and the coalition for clean air support prop 30. naomi: i'm voting yes on 30. according to the daily beast you know this woman even though her identity is not known. have you figured out who it is? >> not at all, and that's what

i -- i hope everyone can see. it's sort of like everyone is anonymous or everyone is leaking and they want you to confess to something you have no clue about. but it just shows how desperate they are right now. they see me as a big threat, and i know that. and i knew it when yigot into this race. but they don't realize i think they came for the wrong one. they energized me. i know i really want to keep this seat. >> just because we all knew it's going to happen it doesn't make seeing it happen any easier to stomach. of course i'm talking about republicans up and down the federal government and in right-wing media circling the wagons today around that man. georgia senate candidate herschel walker. as you saw walker again denying reporting in the daily beast that says he paid for a girlfriend's abortion in 2009. right now, though, the story has

expanded well beyond what candidate did in one race. directed at a candidate now advocating for a total ban on abortion in his race. now, at this point this is clearly a story about something bigger, about a political party that has broken bad, that is so deprave, so utterly wharped that issues of right and wrong, honestly and lies, vetted reporting are immaterial to them. just listen to the way rick scott, he's the chair of the national republican senatorial committee responded to these credible allegations this morning. >> well, look, this is just textbook 101 for the democrats. they know they're going to lose. herschel walker is running a good race. he's a great candidate. rafael warnock is joe biden. and, you know, it's just lies, cheat and smear. that's what democrats do. they did it to brett kavanaugh. they did it to clarence thomas. they're doing it to herschel

walker and he's going to win. >> the daily beast story might fit into that category. do the tweets from his son matter? >> no. it's a pretty easy choice. >> for your uterus. you heard him. the allegations from his conservative son do not matter. so much for family values. open criticism from walker's son not a factor according to rick scott, doesn't care about his conservative son. all that matters to rick scott is that as a u.s. senator if he wins herschel walker will vote up and down the line as a republican. quote, politics it seems is too important these days for questions of character to matter. consider that in the context of new reporting in politico. quote, months before news broke alleging herschel walker paid for an abortion top republicans in the state including those

advising his team warned him that the story could torpedo his campaign. four people with knowledge of those preliminary discussions say the abortion issue was well-known within the state even before reporters began inquiring about it. it was brought to the attention of those working on walker's behalf in part as a means of discouraging him from running. his team down-played the potential disruption it would cause, but according to one of those people they did not -- they did not outright deny it. nbc news has not verified that reporting nor kwaubted the daily beast story, but rather notably even though walker had promised to target the daily beast with the defamation lawsuit, no such defamation lawsuit has been filed. remember watch what they do not what they say as the great rachel maddow says. a fine point on it in "the washington post" this way, quote, one of donald trump's innovations has been to convince republican politicians that no scandal is too damaging to

survive and bullheadedly plow through, blaming the whole thing on the fake news throughout. in walker, however, republicans have been handed a test of this proposition that looks like a whole lot more than where they bargained for. it's where we start the hour with our reporters and friends. he's the chair of the department of african american studies at princeton universe, also an msnbc political analyst. tia, take me through the reaction in georgia. >> well, the reaction as you noted already among elected officials, those conservative groups has been to rally around herschel walker. you know, they say this is not -- number one they for now are sticking beside them and sticking beside his claims that the story is fabricated and that it's entirely made up. but they also say for them this

is about winning control of the senate. again, as we've noted, trumping all, trumping questions of character, trumping whether he has personal issues or family issues is the fact that they believe herschel walker will be better for the republican agenda than not. of course the alternative being rafael warnock. >> tia, let me play for you how herschel walker's son is being rolled up with the vast left-wing conspiracy. >> but he's doing tremendous damage to you by coming out with those statements. do you know why he's saying this? >> well, the damage he's doing is letting people know that the left will do whatever they can to win this seat. and i told you when i got in this race i'm going to win this seat. people see someone sitting here in front of you right now that's been redeemed. and i want america to know i'm living proof you can make mistakes and get up and keep

going forward, but you can only do it in this country right here. and you can only do it if we get this election correct this come november because we vote for the people on the left like the guy running against senator warnock, you're not going to have the chance to be redeemed. he don't believe in redemption. >> it's so backward it's hard to unpack all at once, but we'll try. his son has accused him of domestic violence so grave he and his mother moved six times. his son has accused him of never being at home, being out -- i won't use the word but having relations with women instead of being home with his family. is herschel walker acknowledging that all those things are true? >> he's not. and he's said his son is being used by the left, and i think that's the vulnerability here. this son is a conservative activist. his son is all in on the republican party, he's just not all in on herschel walker.

his son also has a wide reach on social media, and, you know, the more his son feels attacked, the more he'll continue to speak out, double down, and quite frankly he could reveal some secrets of his own. so there's a lot of risk there if herschel walker continues to deny and antagonize what his son has been saying. >> i made this comment yesterday, and i'm glad you're hear because i have some thoughts on this. if roy moore right now, i don't know he wouldn't have made it. where are we? >> well, i agree with that at this point in time. as you know i tweeted out yesterday or the day before that people forget that roy moore a very credibly accused sexual assaulter of teenagers and a certifiable right-wing nut only lost that race by 1.5%, and while he was losing it got 90% of the republican vote under those circumstances in alabama.

if herschel walker was to lose, he's going to get 90 or 92% of the gop vote in georgia in this time. he's going to get 80% of the white evangelical vote, and there's so many of parts of this story that expose so much of the hypocrisy of the gop today, the inability to put character first, the lack of integrity, all those things. but i don't think there's something more fundamental than, you know, as a person who sees himself as a devout christian to listen to herschel walker talk about redemption as he attacks a christian minister who's in the united states senate, and understand i'm a full believer in redemption -- a full believer in redemption, but the path to redemption starts with taking responsibility for your actions, expressing remorse for those actions, reforming your behavior and then repairing the damage that your actions did. herschel walker has done none of

those things. he's taken no responsibility. he's expressed no remorse. he's done nothing to repair the damage, and he's not reformed who he is in the course of this. but i think this fundamentally -- i mean, donald trump's -- i remember this when we all covered this. his "access hollywood," everyone said that's going to knock donald trump, and there were speaking against him and my fear is what they learned after donald trump won in the aftermath of that is we better never apologize or we better never, you know, cover our behavior and put guardrails on our candidates or do any sort of holding them accountable for this. but that's where we are. herschel walker in the midst of this, with all these things being said and things he's done is going to get 80% of the white evangelical vote in georgia no matter what. >> it is important to be clear

about what by normal standards the problem here is, eddy glaude. the problem here is that herschel walker has attached himself to abortion policies that are so extreme they're being rejected by republicans even in kansas, total abortion bans that eliminate exceptions for rape, incest and the life of the mother. the problem here isn't a messy personal life. i actually agree that is redeemable in politics. the problem here is that you would have this constituents, and if he's in the senate that would be all of us, abide bylaws of life where they are not allowed redemption, they are not allowed access to health care if they want to make that choice. and if we are entering into a new zone, a new post-shame american politics where politicians who believe in laws

that would forbid their constituents, all americans from doing things they have done in their life, we are in very, very dark times. >> absolutely. absolutely. it's clear these people -- and i use that phrase purposefully -- believe there's a certain set of rules that apply to them and there's a certain set of rules that apply to everyone else. we need to understand that, "a," this is deeply cynical, that these folks just want to hold power for their own purposes and ends. i mean, just to see the names surrounding him whether it's chris leader or ralph reed, jack's boy, centering around and praying for this guy. fred douglas said, you know, the american -- the american church steeple was always next to the auction block, and that analogy had everything to do with greed

and selfishness overriding fundamental belief. and of course we're having this conversation dense the backdrop of yom kappur. and there's the other side of this cynicism quickly and that is the way in which the republican party is deploying race, to echo the conversation from the last hour. herschel walker is only here because of his name and that he's a black man running against rafael warnock. that's the only reason why he's here. they're playing on race so that these people can vote for someone who will implement negative policies that will negatively impact poor people and vulnerable people, but they don't have to feel like they're being racist because they're voting for a black man. it's so deeply cynical. the moment we're in is profoundly dark, nicole, profoundly dark. >> eddie, when you say rooe fast everything in me just tenses up, so i'm going to make you say

more. but let me ask you about these final five weeks where the hypocrisy has been revealed, where republican scandal is officially an oxymoron. we're not sure that exists, and your points about race now intersect with an out in the open threat of domestic violent extremism. what should we be girded for in these final five weeks? >> you know, you've been talking about this for a while. there are are going to be those who will not accept the results of the election. i mean, that conversation you had with frank figliuzzi yesterday was deeply unsettling on so many different levels. we need to prepare ourselves to fight for democracy because there are those in our country right now who are committed to the idea if they don't win, the country will not -- the country will not survive. and i'm not being hyperbolic.

i think that much is at stake. and the reasons why that's the case go all the way back to the moment when we left 600,000 people dead on the battlefield. it's a long-standing crisis, nicole, that we've never resolved. >> you know, matthew, because there is so much that has led to this moment, unprocessed trauma, the increasingly callus nature of our politics without the laws of gravity bringing down the people that practice it, the elevation of trump and the enabling of him, it's all connected. so trump begets herschel walker and moore, frankly the difference may be one reveals where we are and it's a worse place. what is the most crystallizing way to talk about that if you're a democratic candidate or you're liz cheney and you think a democratic candidate should win or if you're in the media? what is the clearest way to have

that conversation over the next five weeks? >> well, you know, great question. to me, my vantage point on this and i always approach this thing from both a value perspective and strategic perspective in this is first you have to tell the truth and say this is what we're facing in the course of this. and this is where we are as eddie has talked about numerous times, and i completely agree it's where we are in america. the soil of america has been poisoned and needs to be retilled and brought up. we need to do that. we're doing that in this moment. so tell the truth. but i think that's only part of it. the next part has to be in a deep way calling americans to a shared set of values, values that aren't about specific policy issues but values that we teach our children, you teach your children. we were all brought up in it. churches talk about it every sunday, amazingly. churches talk about this every sunday but values like integrity and character and decency and compassion and love.

all of those things, we have to talk. we have to, one, expose the truth, but we have to call americans to a shared sense of values and not the least of which democracy allows us to achieve our best, allows us to do what we think is in the best interest of the common good. and to me we can talk about all the issues that we can expose in this, the economy, who it serves, choice issues, all of that -- guns. all of it can be talked about ipthose sets of values but, one, tell the truth even if people are offended by it. and two, i think we have to call people to a basic sense of shared values and get people back to that. i want to add one other thing. this is not a problem that started in politics but is completely intertwined and invested now in politics. this is problem that has started whether it's somebody in a business, large corporations, wall street, whatever it happens to be where they have adopted an

ends justifies the means approach, which means whatever profit we can make, whatever we can do to achieve whatever it is that we want, we can basically do any means and hope we don't get caught. and if we get caught, we'll lawyer up, do whatever it takes. so this is a problem the sense of values needs to be infused in our politics, but it needs to be infused in our businesses, and it for sure needs to be infused back into our churches in america, which many churches have lost sight of those fundamental values. >> tia, what has happened in georgia on the republican side is super interesting. i mean camp and raffensperger were primaried by trump candidates who tay defeated, they held them off. herschel walker is trump maga all the way. he's not from the kemp raffensperger streak of georgia republicans. how is that playing out in the state? >> well, you know, even governor kemp has said he's going to continue to support the ticket.

he has not necessarily distanced himself from herschel walker. the other thing is we talk a lot about how the ends justify the means. for republicans it's not really about the person or their character but about the end result. in that way there's not as much between. they both support gun rights. they both have a pretty conservative agenda that christian evangelicals have embraced. so the difference is the values, the difference is perhaps the controversies. but, again, what we're seeing is for many entrenched republican voters, that doesn't matter as much as what they would do if they were in office. >> right. the alleged abortion receipts and get well card don't matter as much as the ban. tia mitchell, for helping us understand a debt of gratitude to you. thank you so much for starting us off this hour.

when we come back the mid-term elections now less than five weeks ago could be the last best chance to put a stake through the heart of all of this, anti-democratic conduct and election denialism. republicans all around the country are running on the big lie. our next guest called them to bad losers and if they win democracy itself is in more danger. plus the one state where more 2020 election deniers are on the ballot for statewide office than any other. we'll have a live report from there from arizona, of course, where we'll soon find out how far liz cheney is going to go to make good on her promise to top election deniers from being elected. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. after a quick break. don't go anywhere. nergy bill? how? the lower the temp, the lower your bill. tide cleans great in cold and saves money? i am so in. save $150 when you turn to cold with tide.

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are you going to campaign for katie hobbs, the democratic candidate for arizona? >> i'm going to do everything i can to make sure carli lake is not elect. >> so does that include campaigning for democrats if that's what it takes? >> yes. >> it does. >> that was grzwoman liz cheney just one week ago on her determination to keep republican nominee for governor and election denier in arizona kari lake a person still trying to overturn the election out of office. an aide to cheney tells nbc news this is not an endorsement or campaign stop on behalf of the democratic candidate katie hobs,

although she will be discussing her opposition to kari lake. what is liz cheney expected to do if not endorse the only alternative to kari lake, which is katie hobs? >> right, nicole, she kind of boxed herself into a corner when she made these remarks at a texas tribune fest, and that is why you see her coming out here and notably an aide tells me it's not an endorsement. she's not campaigning for katie hobbs, but katie hobbs is the alternative to kari lake, who right now is neck and neck in polling with the democrat being dangerous to are thpen here. and what you are seeing with these republican candidates is kari lake in a head to head

matchup here, campaigning on the road with masters as well as the fellow election denier running for attorney general as well as mark finchem. mail ballots are going into mailboxes just one week from now. donald trump is going to campaign here on sunday with the likes of that republican slate. liz cheney is here. mike pence is coming next week. this is a pivotal moment here for each of these campaigns, and why ted cruz has brought his bus tour here as well. nicell, i know you have love friends on the show. and when you're on the campaign trail you run into some people, friends along the way, and that's where we've run into an extra special one, tim miller, who you're going to see kari lake for the first time. who are you looking for in the dynamic here? >> she's got the juice. she's much more skilled at the

donald trump show than a lot of these other imitators are, and you can see that in the numbers. and i'm looking forward with what will happen today with masters and lake. they're both election deniers. they're both radical on abortion, but lake because of her background as a tv host is much softer, better at performing. it'll be interesting how he performs in comparison to her today, and i'm so excited to be out here with you. you're doing the lord's work here today. this is real among the people. >> reporter: nicole, i feel like this is the same for you, too, a lot of times the conversations between all of us are between text message. i think what we've talked about in the past is how kari lake is a different type of candidate mainstream sort of election denying, i think a radicalization of the far right become mainstream, and there's a real possibility a month from now these candidates could win

and give trump validation -- as the biggest risk going ahead to 2024 and the most likelihood the republican wins, and mastriano. >> you can close your eyes and pretend you guys are at a normal republican event and as tim is giving a conventional analyses how they perform and what their strengths are as orators, but these are not normal candidates and not conservative ideals they advocate. it's a slow motion insurrection. it's overturning the results of an election whose republican leaders counted the votes three times. how much alarm is there? or when you get there do you fall into what's in front of your face which is a seemingly normal political event? >> i don't think you can close your eyes and think this is a

normal political event in the way we thought about normal political events, nicole. i think back to the nicole, mccain thing when we were in arizona. this does feel very different. it does feel very reactionary. there's an energy to it, and when they get up here they're going to be advocating not conservative views at all but anti-democratic reactionary views. i don't think masters in particular would say he's a nationalist. kari lake was a democrat two minutes ago until she joined the trump cult. so it's not conventional at all. it's going to be anti-democratic and you can sense that when you're walking around, i promise. >> and the polling is still close here. when you look at the senate race folks know who blake masters is at this point because $50 million has been spent to either boost mark kelly or go on the attack against him here.

that's a 5 to 1 comparison and also the same can be said about kari lake. she's not running away from where she is, the election denialism, her uh-uh liemt with donald trump, her trump on abortions. it's why i was pressing the liz cheney team here because we've had conversations over the last year and a half about the threat of election denialism to the republic at the same time when you look at the amount of money that's been spent we're talking just about $6 million has been spent to boost katie hobs campaign. when you're looking at other key states, michigan, wisconsin, they've had more than $20 million from their governors races here. if really truly folks on the outside see this as a threat you would think they'd be an on the campaign trail. >> amen, she should be campaigning for katie hobs. that's exactly right.

>> let me ask you there isn't in american politics today at 5:30, there isn't a current number three. the only intellectually honest way to defeat election deniers is to vote for democrats. there may be fantasies to someday have another option, but right now there isn't one. so what is liz cheney doing in the state if not endorsing and boosting to helping raise money to the only alternative to election denialism there, tim? >> that's a good question. i think she's been super clear on kari lake, and she even went so far as to chastise glen youngkin and liz had some really tough words for him. so there's something to be said for that, but, you know, we're running out of time. and, you know, if i was advising her, i do think she should be actively campaigning because that matters. there are still these mccain flake conservative voters who are republican by habit, but

could get nudged up if they realize the extent of the threat. and i think it's up to everybody john kyle and other republicans who get it from the state to speak out clearly on that. >> one little point also the windy is closing. liz cheney may be a different candidacy, but riz cheney, doug ducey, fred upton, all these folks in office for just a couple more months, you have the likes of hutchinson, doug ducey, liz cheney, they're all going to be out of office come 2023, so this window of opportunity for them to really take the mic and get the attention of the populous is really starting to close. >> sure. let me bring into the conversation eddie glaude and matt dowd standing by. i'm exhausted by republicans who don't want to be for all of the crazy that comes with trump and trumpism in this state as kari lake, but they're not sure

they're ready tathrow in with the democrats. that's all there is. you either aurm ffbly vote for republicans or affirmatively vote for democrats. you may want more ways to save democracy. today, that's it. >> that's it. you're either for democracy or not. silence is complicity. silence you've made a choice. this is the danger. we've been over and over again trying to provide space for republicans to say they're not trumpest, right, that there's space for them, they're not the ones who have gone over it. but there's space for them to be normal republicans. in this moment that space allows them to inhabit that identity where they still think they can vote for republicans down ballot. this party in my view has lost its bearings. it has no reason -- we cannot give it the reins of power, nicole. so i am baffled they're not being held responsible, and

partly they're not being held responsible because we've given them that space. maybe they're all mixed up, but you're right, democracy there's no choice. there's no other choice. >> there are invasive fish that come to my pond and they look so cute when they're little and i always say to myself i don't want to kill them, they're little. except they grow up and eat the fish in there. the republicans down ballot could grow up to be insurrectionist inthat you says as well. what is the wakeup moment for people who see the threat? and you've got to give liz cheney credit. she is the first republican to use her platform to tell her country that the threat trump and trumpism imposes is as grave. and she's used the same words as an investigator, used the same tactics turning to witnesses, working up the chain of the

ladder as they did to pursue the threat of foreign terrorism after 9/11, but it is this last step. it is failing to throw down and vote for the only party that right now was for maintaining america as a democracy that holds her back from being really powerful. >> well, you know, i've thought a lot about this. and as i've watched liz cheney in the course of this, i give her lots of props for all the things she's done. she's been the most effective person, communicator, related to the january 6th commission bar none, bar all of them. she's been the most effective communicator in the course of this, which has been an effective advocate for what we're talking about, this democracy versus autocracy moment in this. but i think liz cheney is like a lot of republicans. and you and i know a lot of them, which is for some reason it's taking a long time to understand the alternative that is only necessary.

and i think liz cheney is getting -- obviously your comments in austin at the tribune fest was a big step forward when she said i'm going to do whatever i can to defeat election denier republicans. this process it's almost like somebody that's going through an -- confronting addiction, which is they finally have to get to the point where, okay, you're right the only place is i've got to give up control and i've got to turn myself over to, you know, a higher power or whatever else it happens to be. yoowatched mitt romney do the same thing. he's not even close to where liz cheney has gotten. but this process they go through because they're republicans in their dna, and they somehow not confronted the idea that in this moment policies and power don't matter if we lose our democracy. they understand the threat.

they've gotten up close i believe by-election day. liz cheney will be full board doing exactly what we talked about because i think she's further down in this process. but i think for some reason they just get stuck in this, well, i can do so much good as a republican on all these other things. but while in the midst of it we've lost our democracy. and that's finally the point they're going to get to. is it going to take, nicole, us losing a good chunk of our democracy for them to finally realize what the alternative is and how we have to deal with this? i hope not. but it may take something like a kari lake or some other that takes the election in arizona or whatever other state it's in and destroys the will of the people that they finally get to that point. i think liz will get there. it's just taking her a long while to get from i understand the threat to what's the alternative. >> i always agree with you both. let me just push back thoughtfully on a piece of this. it's already happened.

130 of them voted to not accept the results of the election in november after the insurrection. so we keep waiting for, well, maybe she'll see kari lake win and be like what a bummer. it's already happened. and the whole thing with the framing around merrick garland, it could lead to violence -- we already had it. this thing with mike pence -- the video they aired of the guys with ar-15s swinging them from the freaking trees at the trump rally. we've already had an insurrection in washington. we've already had over 130 republicans vote to overturn the will of the people. it's already happening. and i -- i love the irony of republicans so distinct in safe spaces but literally in padded rooms to see if the threats to democracy are grave enough to vote for a democrat. >> well, i agree there's many of us that see this with very clear

eyes and see exactly what's going on, what is happening, what could happen and what our biggest threat ahead is. all of us see that. all of us here see that, but a lot of voters don't. and a lot of voters -- and i call this out, and candidates need to call attention to this and bring voters into this equation. a lot of voters think, well, i don't see democracy destroyed. i can still go to the polls and my neighbors can still go to the polls and we can vote for the candidate. yeah, there's a bunch of crazies over there, and joe biden still gets stuff done and seems like democracy works in the way i thought. and oh, by the way, i need to order this amazon thing for my kid for christmas or whatever that happens to be, so we see it with clear eyes. we see it with clear eyes, but i don't think -- and this goes back to something we've talked about all summer, and eddie's been part of this conversation,

it's important to bring voters clear-eyed because many voters do not see it as the threat we all know it is. >> tim, let me bring you back into this. what are your -- you're there guest hosting "the circus" this week, which sounds like a very fun pg-#/r-rated assignment for you. tell me what you're looking for. what are you trying toer report out in the arizona story? >> yeah, it'll probably be r-adjacent. we're looking at this ark from the party we knew well, we thought we knew well, the jeff flakes, the doug ducey party. what happened? how did we get to this place we have this anti-democratic, anti-conservativeatory, frankly, reactionary candidates that could draw in the whole party? so we're talking to voters about that and seeing some of them are maybe going along with it for the team. some of them weren't happy with

the old party, and there are other voters out there i think are still even at this late day trying to figure out what they think about this, like can they be nudged over into the democratic column, talking to voters, going to these events, the contrast between seeing liz cheney later at the mccain institute, and this event here with ted cruz and kari lake is going to be pretty stark. so we're exploring how that happened and whether these are these swing voters, these former republicans that can be nudged away to the democratic column. this year likely we're in 2020 and that's frankly how joe biden won this state and got elected. >> vaughn hilliard and tim miller, our intrepid correspondents on the ground in arizona, a political battleground if there ever was one, thank you so much. matthew and eddie are still with us. we have to fit in a quick break, but the three of us will be right back. don't go anywhere. us will be right back don't go anywhere.

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we've shared with you some of the alarming warnings reported out by our friend tim this week about what is at stake and we've been talking about it for the last hour and 45 minutes. in the atlantic he writes about the bad losers,the republican nominees still sowing doubt about the 2020 election and by so many points it would be embarrassing to do anything than

depart from the lies and liars. he writes this. they'll cry fraud, throw tantrums sufficient to draw attention to their margins of defeat. at that point, chris thomas, a 48-year veteran michigan elections worker says maybe a critical mass of gop voters, the people who supported these candidates in the first place will foinally realize they've been duped. maybe they'll abandon the lies and choose a different path before it's too late. but based on the number of candidates who sold their spot to earn a number on the november ballot and nitsch in beyond i fear it may be. so the democrats now have to win, and they have to win by so much that the republican election deniers who live in a post-truth, post-scandal party are deradicalized suddenly by the margin. no, no, that is not how it works. and i feel like we are setting ourselves up, well, it's not a

win unless the democrats win by 37 points. no, we cannot head down this path of redefining what an election victory is. >> well, i mean, that's obviously one of the most fundamentals. you don't have a democracy if a loser is not willing to concede no matter what the election margin is. that's one of my main players when you examine the world of democracies that you establish as what a pillar of democracy is. to my vantage point the fact that the democrats -- the fact the democrats in this environment where joe biden's approval rating is under water like obama's was when he lost the house, when clinton's was, when reagan's was, that democrats in many of these races are favored for the -- to keep the unsafe senate or expand it. and now that there is a legitimate shot that the democrats keep the house in a mid-term election shows what this is, and i'll just offer one thing and i know tim alberta's

not here but he grew up in michigan like i grew up in michigan. and to me the contrasting things of what's happening in michigan with the candidates and what's happening is arizona couldn't be more stark. michigan and arizona are about the similar quality of swing state in the country. they're about a similar quality of swing state in the country. the three democrats in michigan, the governor, attorney general, and secretary of state are all running against the sam brand of crazy, election denier, outlandish, crazy stuff for all those offices just like in arizona. the three candidates in michigan have been running together all on this message, all talking about freedoms at stake, all talking about democracy, all talking about competency of government, like if you want services you need competent people in government. all three have double digit leads today. and that is not the case in arizona. now, i get some money is the

difference, but that's not the problem. so this to me is a stark -- if you want to win do what they do in michigan. do it how they're running the campaigns in michigan, but i don't care if somebody wins that's secretary of state that's going to be confident at one vote, two votes, but the problem is there's a whole group of voters it doesn't matter what the result is, doesn't matter what we say, they are not going to acknowledge what they don't want to acknowledge, which goes back to the earlier conversation you had in the previous hour, which is they do not like the changing face of america. they will not acknowledge reality in front of them, whether it's an election result because they do not like the changing face of america. that's the honest to god truth. >> you know, the other side -- the anti-democratic side wins when the rest of us concede to the micro-aggressions, the

moving of the goal posts. and in my view the most damaging thing to our democracy was done by mitch mcconnell, kevin mccarthy, when after donald trump lost an election that was not close -- he didn't lose did michigan. he lost because he lost all of them. he lost all of them. when they said oh, let him cry it out, that is when we lost our democracy. when the people who concede the truth and concede that donald trump lost refused to make him say the truth, that's when it all slips away. my concern about this new metric, democrats need to win by a lot. no! you just have to win the old fashioned way. that's how republicans would win if they did. what do we do to sort of keep this granded in truth and reality, eddie? >> it's -- you hit the point on

the head and it's so hard to answer. the immediate analogy is to go to, you know, children. you don't move the goal post when you're trying to discipline your children, otherwise they keep trying to find that boundary and will keep acting out if you don't say no, finally. but that's not quite right. there's a sense which mcconnell and mccarthy, that's all about power. but what you are saying hit me in the gut, about the intimacy of it all. there's something about the combination of the loud racists who worry about the great replacement and the demographic shift, and how they join with those who are too worried we might be going too far. and the two of them together have always arrested significant change in the country. it's always been the loud racists and, you know, the scared, the tentative white

liberal, that have always kind of grabbed the country by the color and kept us from moving forward. so what you're saying is when we capitulate to these folk, nicole, we set the stage for the undermining of our very democracy. and our history bears it out time and time again. i come out of a tradition that's beared the brunt to have compromise. so your question gets to the heart of it. when are we going to stop dancing with these folk who hold insidious views? they've always been here. and we've been dancing with them since the founding oh of the country. >> we will not dance here. matthew and eddie, it was such a treat to have the two of you for the whole hour. thank you so much. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. k break fors we'll be right back.

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deep left. there it goes! soring into history! he's done it! he has done it! 62! >> if you're a baseball fan, it's the best time of year right now. we just showed you aaron judge. he finally did it, six days after tying the 61-year record of 61 home runs set by roger

maris. aaron judge became the american league's new single season home run king with a 391-blast. but the yankees lost last night against the texas rangers. judge now sits behind barry bonds, mark mcgwire and sammy sosa on the single season home run list, but their records are reported steroid use during their careers. judge likely won't be adding to his total. he's out of the lineup for today's game, the last game of the season for the yankees before the playoffs begin next week. thank you for letting us into your home. "the beat" with katie fang starts after a quick break. starts after a quick break ll the what we've got ♪ [ tires squeal, crash ] when owning a small business gets real, progressive gets you right back to living the dream. now, where were we? [ cheering ] ♪ what will you do?

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