and fair or not, the party in power tends to get blamed when that happens. thank you so much for joining us this morning. we really appreciate it. and thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" on this friday morning. have a great weekend, everyone. "morning joe" starts right now. ♪♪ just before the top of the hour, we're following major developments on the war in ukraine, and vladimir putin's ironclad grip might be slipping. president biden makes eye opening comments about the risks of a quote nuclear armageddon. new reporting this morning on what the justice department believes donald trump is still hiding and how it divided the former president's legal team. also ahead, this is a big story, the feds flip a member of the proud boys, and pick up a key witness against the far right group with ties to trump's inner

circle. and i didn't do it, be if it did happen, there's nothing to be ashamed after. that was a short lived defense. to a report that he paid for a former girlfriend's abortion. we're going to go through his evolving denials on that developing story. good morning, and welcome to "morning joe." it is friday, october 7th. we have pulitzer prize winning columnist from the "washington post," eugene robinson. ed luce is with us. officer at princeton university, eddie glaude jr., and jonathan lemire is with us this morning. mika, we were going to get into the news i just saw ed there. i saw a little smirk on ed's face. and i just have to talk about it. you know, ed, we have an expression, we've always had an

expression when people have congratulated me for anything i've done, i go, well, i'm the tallest building in schenectady. your headline, i love this, "america is history's most successful failing state," i would define what you're describing here, i'm an upstate new york guy, i lived there for several years growing up. >> and you love schenectady. >> i love schenectady, but that's more like the tallest building in utica. but, you know, it's so funny. people on the far right, the trump right are constantly attacking america, saying how horrible it is. and as i said, we may have our problems, but if you go back and look at the classic, the rise and fall of the great powers, it was always how strong is a

country relative to everybody else on the globe, and he takes this grand sweeping look at europe from 1500 on. i must say by that standard, our economy is stronger than the rest of the world and anytime perhaps in the post war world. you could certainly say that about our military. i don't know if our military has ever been as dominant in comparison with the rest of the world. and you could look at us culturally, even with all of these problems, compared to the rest of the world, in terms of relative strength, the united states is actually doing quite well, and you talk about it in your column. >> you're quite right. power is relative. the last couple of years because of covid, but also because of the invasion, america's two great rivals, china with the zero covid, it's hard to understand zero covid policy

that has killed growth in the country and that looks like continuing at least until the chinese new year next february has seen its growth slow down dramatically. we're probably in an actual recession. you don't believe the official number, so china is the big engine of the economy, and probably not for the foreseeable future. india is the high growth economy. there's china camping itself out for reasons hard to understand. putin making, you know, probably the most classic military blunder in modern history. if you define it by his idea of the map, putin has invaded russia in winter, which is not what you do. if he tells you not to do that, and it is, as a stroke, you know, united the west. restored an undisputed amount of leadership of the west and showed not only the american arms and equipment and

intelligence assistance can be extremely effective but also the united states can actually command an ideological, if you like, pro democracy, a positive feeling about the western system which we haven't had in a long time. america's relative decline has just gone into the last couple of years a relative ascendancy. >> we're going to be going live to moscow in a moment, but first the stark new warning from the of the united states when it comes to the threat of nuclear war. president biden said the risk of nuclear armageddon is the highest it has been in roughly 60 years since president kennedy and the cuban missile crisis. it stems from russia's flailing

invasion of ukraine. biden says president putin is not joking when he talks about use of biological or chemical weapons. his military is significantly under performing. russia has faced huge setbacks on the battlefield as ukrainian forces continue to take back land illegally occupied by moscow. there has been widespread concern that putin could use a weapon of mass destruction to regain some footing in the war. in the words of president biden, i don't think there's any such thing as the ability to easily use a tactical nuclear weapon and not end up with armageddon and this has been one of the crises out of that war, joe, that perhaps one couldn't easily predict from the get-go because nobody, i think, could imagine how well the ukrainians would do, how resilient, how

unbelievably strong in the face of evil, really, and atrocities happening on their land to their people, and yet, they continue to push the russians back. i don't think anyone can predict what happens when putin is actually realistically in a corner. >> well, he's actually in that corner now. dan dresner had a great piece out. he was talking about the absolute victory by ukraine and talking about the pushing of putin further into the corner actually creates with it quite a few problems for us, and gene robinson, there's nothing simple about this war. there's nothing simple about this war for the ukrainian people at the beginning, and at the end. this cannot be seen by russia. this cannot be seen by vladimir

putin as an existential crisis. i know people like to say the ukrainians are going, you know, there's no substitute, but the complete destruction of vladimir putin. no, it's just, again, they have more nuclear weapons than anybody on the face of the earth, and we're going to have to be creative as kennedy was when you got the missiles out of cuba, but quietly get missiles out of turkey. we're not dealing with belarus here, we're dealing with a country that has nuclear weapons and doesn't have any problems threatening to use them. that's absolutely right, and you have a leader, vladimir putin, who seems on some level, and i don't think this is necessarily all rhetoric to see this as some sort of existential crisis and threat for the russian federation.

from mother russia, and so any solution, any end to this. i don't know what the exact outlines to an end will be, but whatever those outlines are, they're going to have to include some sort of assurance or at least putin getting the message that, no, there is no existential threat to russia, no one is trying to threaten the motherland. it is, you know, the fact that you invaded a sovereign neighbor and are holding territory that's not yours. and are bombing, like they did just yesterday, bombing indiscriminately civilian targets, and killing people and that's not -- this is not acceptable and those two messages have to be delivered

and there's going to have to be something concrete, but again, i don't know what it is that gives putin that reassurance and that fabled, you know, missing off ramp that everybody keeps looking for. nobody yet has been able to find. >> if he wants it. putin's mishandling of the war in ukraine has come under a torrent of criticism in recent days, and according to "the new york times", the russian leader faces dissent. a russian installed official in the occupied region of ukraine belittled the defense minister, he said the minister should consider killing himself because of his army's failures in ukraine. the criticism appears to be widespread. the "times" continues, the head

of the defense committee in the head of the parliament excoriated the defense ministry for covering up the bad news. members of parliament had written to russia's prosecutor general asking for an investigation into the military's supply problems. meanwhile war bloggers and officials have gone from cheer leading russia's advances and grumbling louder about the military failings as one member of vladimir putin's inner circle has voiced disagreement to the russian president himself over his handling of the war, according to information obtained by u.s. intelligence. "the washington post" reports quote the information was deemed significant enough that it was included in president biden's daily intelligence briefing and shared with other u.s. officials according to people familiar with the matter.

the turmoil over the stewartship over a war that has gone disastrously wrong for moscow. joe. >> let's go to moscow, and senior international correspondent keir simmons, keir, it is notable there's a rising tide of criticism against russian officials, but vladimir putin and other leaders are not cracking down on that dissent. right now, they are allowing that dissent. what can you tell us, perhaps, about that strategy? >> joe, i think it tells us something very very important. i think it tells us that pruitt -- president putin is under pressure from his hard liners. the member of his inner circle,

dmitry peskov has denied that president putin was directly confronted. it was a member of president putin's inner circle. that could be anyone. we don't know the name. the idea that there are divisions in the inner circle, that is not news. it could be the former head of the fsb, now the secretary of the security council. it could be achemesov who was with president putin in germany in the kgb, and runs the military company here in russia. i mean, frankly it could be anyone. his rivalry with shoygu, the defense minister goes back years, is well known. the idea that one of those members of the inner circle would go to president putin and

say we think shoygu is letting you down, that is entirely believable. what i think is crucial, back to my answer, what i think is really crucial is to understand that there are really very few liberals left here in russia. many of them, even though liberals who were with president putin back in st. petersburg have left the country. if you, for example, think of medvedev who is very close to president putin, right back to the beginning, remember the days when he was a liberal, and he was friends with president obama, well, now if you watch what he says, it's hard line. he too is making those nuclear threats, so the question i think with president putin is, and your panel has already touched on it, the question with president putin is he faces a choice, whether to escalate, and he is under pressure. we're seeing news anchors here on russian television commentators calling for a direct confrontation with nato. he's under pressure.

one of the most notable things president biden said is i'm trying to figure out what the off ramp is for president putin. we know he has a history of escalating when he's under pressure. we are in a very dangerous position, and it does call for cool heads and no hyper ball because, again, there are voices in russia calling on president putin to double down, to escalate, and that is the choice that president putin has at this stage, i think. >> you know, keir, it's fascinating, obviously it is hard liners who are voicing the most dissent right now, and in the west, despite the massive gains by the ukrainians on the battlefield, you have foreign policy thinkers still talking about what they talked about at the beginning of the crisis, trying to find the so-called off ramp for vladimir putin, trying to find an off ramp for russia.

dan dresner writing that it is critical that we make sure that russia understands that while we're against this invasion, like we were against the invasion of kuwait, this is not an existential crisis for russia itself. it doesn't sound like that's a message that's being received in russia. it doesn't sound like anybody in russia based on what you're saying is looking for a way out of this. an off ramp. >> yeah, joe, i don't think we know what the off ramp would be. you know, it goes back to that age-old reality of politics, that all politics is local. what the president and other members of his inner circle in moscow will be thinking about is how things are received here in moscow, and in russia, and the mobilization, the partial draft that was announced by president putin has really brought this conflict home to many many russians. now the question of sons and brothers and husbands going to ukraine. and that just adds to the

pressure of president putin, i think, looking ahead. so, you know, ultimately in some ways, this is a domestic political challenge now for president putin and how he -- how he finds his way through that. he tells this story, doesn't he, about his childhood in st. petersburg, about being cornered by a huge rat and what he learned about how when you are in a corner, you just fight back. well, again, that is the kind of thinking that will be going through president putin's mind and what he will be thinking about is how his people will respond to the next news that he potentially makes. >> nbc's keir simmons in moscow, thank you so much for being with us. we so appreciate it. ed luce, we appear to be talking to ourselves still in the west. we have from the very beginning. i remember speaking it a russian

official before the war. and they were in a different reality. they've been in a different reality, even now with all of this happening in ukraine, with the russian army collapsing, there doesn't seem to be any pragmatic thought about how do we get out of this, save face, and reset. >> no, none whatsoever, i mean, i think for putin, this is existential. i don't think he can politically afford to be seen, to be losing this war. so if there is any realistic way an off ramp could be created by the west, it would be to help give him the appearance of not having lost this war while having actually lost this war.

>> how do we do that, ed? what are some of the solutions? i know you don't want to set yourself up to be completely slammed on twitter, we'll just generalize it here. because i talked about john kennedy removing -- quietly removing missiles from turkey in exchange for the russians taking missiles out of cuba. what would be those turkish missiles in this case. >> in this case, there's a whole other added factor, which is the trillion dollars or so rebuilding of ukraine after this war. we shouldn't be paying for that. it should be russia that pays for that with its oil revenues and other sources of money, and that's not something that kennedy was talking about because there had been no war. any settlement, any off ramp includes here is the bill, russia, and it's very hard to imagine putin accepting that

bill. i mean, i cannot think of what the face saving formula is that for putin to put out that would be consistent with the imperative of ukraine not just winning this war but demonstrating forever that russia should not do this again, that the cost to russia is so high that this is no longer conceivable because that would be the end of putin. and we'd all like to see the end of putin, but that would be the end of putin. i'm very pessimistic there's any realistic off ramp at the moment. >> and u.s. officials are not seeing one either that putin would that i can, also that zelenskyy would take. the ukrainians don't see any need to negotiate or compromise with russia. they're advancing on their counter offensive. there's even talk of trying to get crimea back. that shows you how well things have gone. u.s. officials were taken by surprise by the president's remarks last night saying this is the closest the world has

been to nuclear armageddon since the 1960s. they're not seeing any change in russia's nuclear posture, nato intelligence also saying the same. they don't believe russia is trying it ramp that up at all, at least not yet, but the idea of also trying to convince putin that it's not an existential threat for russia is also front of mind i'm told in the last couple of days, why the u.s. wasn't putting out that information, that it was ukraine behind that car bomb in moscow over the summer because that was seen as a warning to ukraine. hey, don't escalate this further. things are going well as they are. you don't want to take this fight inside russia. >> can i ask you this, jonathan, do you know is the white house upset over the fact that based on the intelligence they know that the ukrainians went into russia? >> yes, very much so. the u.s. officials were -- the u.s. administration, the government is upset that ukraine did this, that they were told not to in the beginning months

of the war. not just from the u.s. but western partners as well saying, look, we don't want this war to escalate. we don't want this to become a wider conflict. that's why they were reluctant to give them long range missiles that they thought ukraine could shell hundreds of miles into russian territory. that was a bad idea too. they were upset they did this. ukraine was warned not to do things like this, and the publication of this, their intelligence this week, giving it to the "new york times" was perceived as a warning to ukraine. we weren't consulted last time around and don't do it again. >> from listening to this entire conversation on what is vladimir putin's 70th birthday, we wonder about his psychological state, what he's thinking at this point, i don't hear that he wants an off ramp. i don't hear that he -- i'm not getting anything from the analysis here that he's interested in pulling back. >> right. and when you think about the

actors, and of course this is outside of my wheel house. the ukrainians feeling a sense of existential threat. if putin feels existential threat, russia feels existential threat. there's difficulty to distinguish the two. one wonders what happens, and in the context of the u.s. imagine given all the stuff americans are facing at this moment, to now feel the threat of nuclear armageddon on top of it all, it's unsettling. >> it is a really difficult time. we're going to be continuing this conversation. still ahead on "morning joe," a live report from beijing, following north korea's missile tests this week. plus, the latest on the controversy surrounding georgia senate nominee herschel walker. we'll take a look at his new response to allegations he paid for a girlfriend's abortion. also ahead, president biden takes a major step toward decriminalizing marijuana. we'll talk about the

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28 past the hour. ed luce, as we mentioned earlier, your latest column for the financial times is entitled, america is the tallest building in utica. it's actually entitled "america is history's most successful failing date," the key sign of fading power is its currency losing value. by this yardstick, america is close to an imperial peak. yet political science tells us that america is more divided

than at any point, could it be a failing state that outshines its rivals? the answer is yes. for the time being, a nation can be both rich and ungovernable for long periods. there are two reasons for this. the first is that the u.s. rival is doing worse. xi jinping's china is no longer high growth star of the world economy. relative to china, the u.s. looks good. the second reason is vladimir putin. rarely has a hedgemon has been as blassed with a blunder an enemy as america is with putin. its jugular is badly exposed and with that, it all is coming back to the very very tense cross roads we are at with this war.

and you're writing a book on my father, the official biography, and i just wonder having seeped into his mind to write this book if you're at all thinking about what he would be saying at this moment? because that's what i'm thinking every day. >> because what he did was prevent the soviets from invading poland, it's a prickly hedge hodge strategy. >> a lot of psychological involved there. >> a lot of psychology, knowledge of language, conditions on the ground, what the russians hear and the ability to speak russian pretty helpful. but he talked a lot about the finlandization of ukraine. i'm not sure i agreed with that. henry kissinger pushed that line. quite the opposite of having this neutral buffer state,

ukraine. that's no longer in anybody's menu. it's inconceivable that we would demand that of ukraine now. putin has ensured it is a permanent part of the west, that it will permanently feel very ukrainian, much more than it did six months ago. and i think your father, you know, having part of his family having grown up in what is now ukraine, what was then poland, lviv would see this as an extraordinary windfall for the west, something that nobody really could have forecast, even your father i think would have found the speed with which this has happened hard to forecast. >> joe. >> and i do think the one thing i can say with certainty because i was blessed to know doctor brzezinski and spend much time with him privately and publicly, i'm quite certain if he were here today he would say that i'm

stunningly super official. ed luce, thank you so much. good to have you here. >> maybe he would. ed, i know you have to run. thank you. >> keep that part out of the book. thank you. i'm joking. so eddie glaude, we have -- it's so fascinating, we always talk about on the show how two things can be true at the same time. we have the united states, in terms of relative power to the rest of the world at a stronger position since 1945, perhaps i know this is hard to believe because washington is so dysfunctional. perhaps the strongest point relative to the rest of the world than it's ever been, even 2000, because we had a strong rising china at that point. 1945, with the soviet union. i keep thinking of the lincoln quote, where the famous lincoln quote where he said all the

armies of europe, asia and africa combined, with all the treasure of the earth in their military chest with a bon bonep for a commander could not take a drink from ohio and a track on the blue ridge in a trial of a thousand years and lincoln goes on to say if we die as a nation, we will die from our own hand. >> right. i think the state of the world is what it is, and america's standing in the world is a reflection of the state of the world, i think. but those internal contradictions that lincoln was grappling with are so pronounced in our current moment, wealth and equality, the outsized role of money in our politics, i'm thinking about partisan division, how it has impacted the ways in which we deliberate about the future of the country, racial divisions and the way it has in some ways shackled our

imaginations in so many ways. i'm thinking about the way in which the republic, right, feels as if its foundation has cracked in this moment, and so i think the internal divisions that the lincoln reference is turning our attention to and what you're calling our attention to are really important because it won't be our failure in the world. it would be our failure to live up to our ideals that will be the source of our envy, it seems to me. >> and with all of this, so many different moving parts happening around the world. tensions escalating on the korean peninsula as north korea's recent barrage of missile tests have prompted the u.s., south korea, and japan to conduct joint military drills in response. the pentagon yesterday condemned north korea's actions calling them quote destabilizing, unhelpful, and irresponsible, and urged the dprk to seize them

immediately. joining us now, nbc news foreign correspondent, janis mackey frayer live from beijing. janis. >> we've seen the u.s. strengthening its military position around the korean peninsula with the return of uss ronald reagan air craft carrier strike group carrying out military drills with japan and south korea. trilateral exercises for the next couple of days. at the same time, moving in new equipment to south korea for the t.a.d. missile system, that will be something a thorn in the side, less for north korea than for china. all of this coming just a day after north korean war planes were carrying out firing drills along the border, forcing south korea to send up 30 aircraft in response, so we're seeing this ramping up that has been familiar territory here.

certainly reminiscent of 2017. the differences now, though, in the pattern of the launches between now and five years ago is that north korea's missiles appear to be more advanced. they're quicker to deploy. they're proving to be more accurate. they're proving to be stronger. the other difference i've seen this time is almost near silence from pyongyang. usually by this point, after firing that intercontinental ballistic missile right over japan on tuesday, we would have had images, we would have had video. we would have had officials within the regime, trumpeting the accomplishment. but there has been only a two-line statement, talking about the u.s., stoking tension in the region with the return of that aircraft carrier, and kim jong un hasn't been seen in public for over three weeks now. even his birthday message to

vladimir putin was a statement that was delivered by state media. >> janis, what are you hearing in beijing? what does your reporting tell you about the best guess there and among u.s. officials, why now? why such a provocative attack toward japan, especially? >> well, first and foremost, north korea is on a schedule. kim jong un has already had a record year for testing. he has the objective of being a nuclear state even if it's only in self-declaration. he passed a law in september, allowing first use of nuclear strikes, and also declared that he would never give up his nuclear weapons. what we're seeing in terms of timing because nothing is coincidence when it comes to actions from north korea. there's always timing and context involved, often linked

to political opportunity or to calendar events. he seems to be leveraging the fact that the u.s. is a very divided attention right now, focused of course on russia with the war in ukraine, and of course focused as well on china and the deteriorating relationship here so he likely figures that actions speak louder than words these days, and he also seems to have the backing of his two allies in china and russia at the u.n. security counsel. the two permanent members blocking any open discussion about stronger sanctions for north korea, and that was echoed in the statement to vladimir putin today where he talked about being rejoiced at having the support of russia against the u.s. in terms of what's next, it's a

nuclear test. it's widely expected to happen, probably going to be after china holds the communist party congress here in a couple of weeks because he certainly wouldn't want to create a distraction that might infuriate xi jinping, and is likely to ham before the midterm elections in the u.s. we're seeing evidence and satellite imagery, what's been hard to read is any hard intelligence coming from inside the regime. the relationship between the u.s. and china. china would normally be a convoy for the u.s. on information is in tatters right now, and nobody seems to be talking to anybody. >> all right. nbc's janis mackey frayer, thank you very much for your live report, and coming up, new reporting on potential legal problems for hunter biden. as federal agents believe they have enough evidence to bring charges against the president's son. meanwhile, a member of an

extremist group that was at the capitol on january 6th agrees to fully cooperate with the fed. we'll look at what this new development could mean for members of trump's inner circle. "morning joe" is coming right back. mp's inner circle. "morning joe" is coming right back trelegy for copd. ♪ birds flyin' high ♪ ♪ you know how i feel ♪ (coughing) ♪ breeze driftin' on by ♪ ♪ you know how i feel ♪ copd may have gotten you here, but you decide what's next. start a new day with trelegy. ♪ ...feelin' good ♪ no once-daily copd medicine has the power to treat copd in as many ways as trelegy. with three medicines in one inhaler, trelegy helps people breathe easier and improves lung function. it also helps prevent future flare-ups. trelegy won't replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking it. do not take trelegy more than prescribed.

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44 past the hour. president biden's son hunter could face federal charges on alleged tax crimes. this following years of scrutiny into his business dealings. let's bring in nbc news justice and intelligence correspondent ken dilanian with more on this. ken, what can you tell us? >> good morning, mika. as you said, this federal investigation into hunter biden's business dealings has been going on for years. it now looks like it may be coming closer to fruition. here's more. new signs hunter biden could

face criminal charges. "the washington post" reporting federal agents believe they have a plausible case to charge the president's son with tax crimes, and also with lying on a gun application when he said he wasn't using illegal drugs, citing people familiar with the case. the final decision about whether to file charges rests with the top federal prosecutor in delaware who is appointed by president trump. the justice department declined comment. nbc news has not confirmed the report. biden's lawyer saying prosecutors in this case are diligently and thoroughly weighing not just evidence provided by agents but also all the other witnesses. hunter biden's business dealings have repeatedly come under fire, including taking lucrative position on a ukrainian energy board while his father was vice president, and nbc news analysis of information on his laptop show he and his firms were paid $11 million from 2013 to 2018, including by chinese and ukrainian firm. last year, hunter biden said he

did nothing wrong. his lawyers said he paid a $2 million tax debt. the white house is declining to comment on this, but of course president biden has repeatedly said he never discussed hunter biden's business dealings with his son. joe. >> so, ken, you used language of people familiar with the case. i have been hearing for quite some time, i'm sure you have been hearing for quite some time at least for the last couple of months, on the tax issues, the feds are confident that they have what they need for the tax charges that this is open and shut, despite the fact the numbers we heard he got from china and his work in ukraine, those were outrageous numbers, but that's been more of a lift to prove corruption there, they could do it, but from what i hear. they could try to do it, from what i hear, though, on the tax issue, at least, the feds are

pretty confidence they have an open and shut case against him. is that what you're hearing? >> that's the reporting. actually, we at nbc news, we tried very hard to talk with people familiar with the case who would neither confirm nor deny the post report, as you know, joe, tax cases are not all that difficult. he paid a $2 million tax bill last year. so he was in arrears on his taxes. the question with those cases is always when does it become criminal tax evasion and there's a lot of prosecutorial discretion about that. there's a lot of people who evade taxes who were never prosecuted criminally. that's a big issue in this case. corruption, conflict of interest, we have never heard a hint that there were potential criminal charges there because hunter biden wasn't an office holder. it was perfectly legal for him to take money from foreign governments, as long as he wasn't inappropriately giving them information from his family or something. there's no hint of that. as bad as it looks, we should

all acknowledge it looked terrible. he did this while his father was vice president and in charge of ukraine issues, taking $50,000, yes, the tax charges, it's a fairly simple proposition. it comes down to what does this u.s. attorney in delaware, appointed by donald trump, what is he going to decide in this case? >> ken dilanian, thank you for that. why don't you stay with us. we want to get your insight and analysis on what could be a pretty potentially major headline. coming up, more on the guilty plea on seditious conspiracy by a member of the proud boys. we'll be right back with that. a member of the proud boys we'll be right back with that. your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. contestants ready? go! only pay for what you need. jingle: liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty.

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53 past the hour, a former leader of the far right extremist group, the proud boys, has pleaded guilty to seditious conspiracy in connection with

the january 6th riot. jeremy bertino is the first member of the group to plead guilty in connection with the attack on the capitol. he has agreed to fully cooperate with prosecutors. five other members of the group including the group's founder enrico tario were indicted on similar charges in june, and awaiting a december trial. bertino faces 63 months in prison. this is a big headline on naurm a number of levels. we haven't seen charges like this in the january 6th legal proceedings and this is a guilty plea! this is a big deal, and it's a big deal for several reasons. let's bring ken back in here. big deal first of all because it's very hard to prove seditious conspiracy, even though when we looked at the videos a day after january 6th, i was saying on air, a lot of

people could have been charged with seditious conspiracy, but it's obviously much much harder than that. we have a plea deal here. do we have any evidence here that he's turning states evidence against some of the others that were with him in that conspiracy? >> yes, joe, he has agreed to fully cooperate, and he is charged in a conspiracy with five other proud boys. he's the first proud boy to plead guilty to seditious conspiracy, and that's hugely important because that means he can go to that trial in december and testify against his fellow proud boys about exactly what they were planning, and as we've seen from this oath keeper trial, they don't just rely on testimony of witnesses, they have a massive trove of communications, text messages, recorded phone calls, that sort of indicts the defendants in their own words about what exactly they wanted to do. we're three days into the month

long oath keepers trial, and we have heard stewart rhodes, his only regret was the capitol attackers didn't bring guns, and thomas caldwell saying they would have killed 100 politicians if they had guns at the capitol, and this parade of witnesses of former oath keepers at this trial talking about how they were growing increasingly troubled as this group essentially made clear they wanted to go to war with the u.s. government. that's the oath keepers trial. i think we can expect exactly the same thing in the proud boys trial. it's really remarkable how much evidence the government has gathered. the big question, of course, is will we learn anything about any connections between these far right extremist groups and their alleged seditious conspiracies and members of the trump inner circle who were clearly egging this on. that remains to be seen. the doj has powerful evidence against these groups. >> you took my question away from me, do you think this guy,

the guy who's now turned, you know, in some ways in favor of the prosecution, will he give us more insight into the relationship between these organizations and the trump administration? i mean, this guy has, you know, said he's guilty of seditious conspiracy. i mean, what does this mean in so many ways in terms of how we might think about the trump administration and its relationship to all of this? >> it's a great question, eddie. we don't know. we don't know what sort of insights this jeremy bertino has into the inner workings of the proud boys. we know there were secret meetings in parking garages and various phone calls and the oath keepers were providing security for roger stone. obviously a confidant of donald trump. that's the big question in all of these cases and the january 6th investigation writ large. it's not the only question. obviously there's so much that donald trump and his inner

circle have alleged to have done, you know, outside of directly instigating the violence that sort of led up to the violence. we have seen all of that in the january 6th hearings. this question of were they in direct touch with the far right groups that were clearly planning or allegedly clearly planning seditious conspiracies, that's an unanswered question that perhaps these trials will answer and perhaps they won't. >> ken, so we got the oath keepers over here, and the proud boys over there, is there any evidence or indication that they were in touch with each other, that, in fact, we're talking about one large organized group between these two? or were they on completely separate cracks heading for the same goal? >> another great question, eugene, the government has not alleged they were working together. these are separate cases, but there's that famous parking garage meeting that we have all

seen the video of where the leaders were together. i'm not the expert on this. my colleague ryan riley has been spending his entire career in recent years digging into january 6th, and he knows the ins and outs of this. so there was some evidence of communication between those groups, and i think it's unknown at this point how deep that goes, but the government hasn't alleged it in court papers. >> so, ken, i'm curious about new developments that we're reading about relating to the search of donald trump's mar-a-lago. the times is reporting that the justice department still believes trump still has more documents in his possession, two people familiar with the matter tell the times, the top doj official in recent weeks, that the department believed that he didn't return all the documents when he left the white house. it's not clear what steps, if any, the justice department might take to retrieve that material. the times goes on to note that

the outreach from the doj prompted a riff among the lawyers, some believed in a cooperative approach that would include bringing in an outside firm that would conduct a further search for documents, and others a more combative position. what can you tell us? >> joe, the "wall street journal," i noticed has confirmed that story. we have not at nbc news, though we have no reason to doubt it that jay brath, the head of the doj's counter intelligence section, has notified the trump lawyers they think there may be more classified documents out there. if that were true, it's mind boggling, when is this guy to give up the classified documents he took with him. remember the videos of trump aides loading boxes in private jets headed for bedminster, at the time, i asked law enforcement sources about that and whether there were concerns about that, and whether they intended to perhaps search bedminster, and the response i

got is look if we had that evidence, we would already be searching and maybe don't pay too much attention to that, but clearly there's a concern that not all the classified documents were seized in the various, in the first grand jury subpoena and then the raid at mar-a-lago, and if they discover more, i mean, it seems to me that just is a devastating piece of evidence, and makes it more likely than not that they charge this case. but again, we're not there yet, and there's still a lot we don't know. how strong are these suspicions. what evidence do they have? do they have insiders telling them that there are more classified documents or just a matter of the archives says documents x, y and z, and they don't see them in the boxes, we'll have to wait and see. this investigation still has legs, guys. >> nbc's ken dilanian, thank you very much. it is exactly the top of the hour on friday, october 7th.

jonathan lemire, eddie glaude jr. and eugene robinson are still with us, and joining the table, we have msnbc contributor mike barnicle. >> i'm well. >> are you sure? are you good sfl. >> i'm not sure. >> do not put your jacket on the back of the chair and leave. and pulitzer prize winning author, david remnick joins us. >> what? david is out of the whatever that was? >> he's being warm and fuzzy with me today. >> is he really? you and david have a checkered past. >> we do. >> right here at the table. yes. it was horrible. >> mika, come on. there you go. >> i'm taking responsibility. i'm validating. okay. two things can be true at once. i was tough on david, and now he's still being nice to me,

which is lovely! testament to david. >> post yom kippur. >> it's a scary time. >> now it's time for our faith on friday segment with david remnick, tell us baptists what yam yom kippur, it is the holiest of days. >> and the least filled with food. you fast, and god willing you're forgiven for your sins and you start accumulating for next year. >> eddie knows perfectly well. >> yes, he does. >> so david, obviously, really frightening times. >> way too exciting. >> way too exciting. >> we are cursed again to be in interesting times. i'm curious, you have such a vast knowledge of russia, i'm

just curious what do you think, everybody is talking about this off ramp, this off ramp. there are -- it doesn't seem that anybody in russia is interested in a negotiated settlement. we do not have missiles in turkey to put on the negotiating table. and so i'm just curious what you're thinking as joe biden the president of the united states says this is the most dangerous time since the cuban missile crisis, what is your take, and how do we -- how do we allow putin to back out of the corner when the hard liners are pushing him further? >> well, i think we should listen to joe biden very very carefully. you know, joe biden at the beginning of this crisis, and all the security people around him very carefully provided information on what was going to happen. would there be an invasion, would there not be an invasion, and in realtime, gave us a lot of predictive information that

turned out to be absolutely right. and even the ukrainian leadership was dubious of it, and unfortunately it turned out to be correct. now he's saying that the possibility of the use of nuclear weapons, tactical nuclear weapons, battlefield nuclear weapons, it doesn't really our fears is a real possibility. and we should know what's going on in moscow. it is new. i was reading in "medusa," a terrific russian language web site, that's independent, and now being forced to operate out of the baltics that sources for this reporter who's very tied in are saying that people are -- i can't say it on the air, they're scared to death of putin. but they don't respect him any longer, that there are a lot of the people around putin who are pointing fingers. and saying we never should have done this, and we had no plan and now we're screwing up.

the language of fear in the greater circle around putin is enormous. and putin only talks to two or three people in his security counsel. he's isolated. this is like a terrible movie. the isolated dictator making desperate choices. >> speaking of listening to joe biden, here's what he said, it was a stark warning from the president of the united states when it comes to the threat of nuclear war, speaking in new york city, president biden said the risk of nuclear armageddon is the highest it has been in roughly 60 years since president kennedy and the cuban missile crisis. it all stems from russia's flailing invasion of ukraine. biden said president vladimir putin is quote not joking when he talks about potential use of tactical nuclear weapons or biological or chemical weapons because his military is, you might say, significantly under

performing. russia has faced huge setbacks on the battlefield, as ukrainian forces continue to take back land illegally occupied by moscow. there has been widespread concern that putin could use a weapon of mass destruction to regain some footing in the war. but in the words of president biden, quote, i don't think there's any such thing as the ability to easily use a tactical nuclear weapon and not end up with armageddon and mike barnicle, again, reading all the updates on this, what i don't hear is anything about vladimir putin. i believe it's his 70th birthday today. >> it is. >> wanting an off ramp. >> well, when we discussed off ramps, i mean, there's one key element, one key party to the off ramp and that's the ukrainians, their country has been destroyed. they have suffered enormous civilian casualties. >> atrocities. >> and we've talked about, we have to come up with an off ramp

in washington, d.c. and london. this is going to take place in kyiv if any discussion of off ramp is going to have legitimacy. from david's point, from the outset, president biden has been talking accurately about what was about to take place in ukraine, an invasion, even the ukrainians were saying, we doubt there's going to be an invasion. there was an invasion. i'm told by someone who was at last night's event, at a member of murdoch family's apartment, here in new york, which is interesting in and of itself, what he said last night was more of a historical overview of where we are today with ukraine, and he did reference 1962, the cuban missile crisis. he did reference the danger of armageddon. he talked about the danger of nuclear war. it wasn't i want you to be really terrified. here is where we are, and his description of where we are fits pretty consistently with where

we are. we're in a conundrum, and the idea of a tactical nuclear weapon being used, i say tactical, there would be a financial catastrophe in this globe if there was ever the use of any element of nuclear warfare in ukraine and the financial catastrophe would multiply, nation to nation to nation. >> joe. >> in it, i'm not saying that joe biden or olaf scholz delivering speeches pledges not to destroy russia will magically solve this conundrum, but speeches by western leaders articulating russia's pathway back to a pre2022 existence, is a good idea. this might sound like a silly statement but the point is russia's worst case scenario still leaves it a nuclear power with a u.n. security council

veto. the largest country in the world by geography and potential to reform itself and become the great power it wants to be. if a message is we oppose russia in ukraine, we do not oppose russia's existence, it takes the sting out of putin's hyperbole. it should be something that is said as part of the daily discourse of westerners opposing russia in ukraine. eddie glaude, there's somebody that did this with extraordinary discipline, george h.w. bush, bush 41 kept saying we're going into kuwait to liberate kuwait and then we're bringing the troops home. he got into kuwait. the war went far better than anyone expected and you had a lot of people on the right wanting him to take those troops all the way into baghdad. he said, that's not why we went in there. we went in there to liberate

kuwait, we're bringing the troops home. drezner seems to be talking about the same sort of message. this is about your invasion of ukraine. this is not about russia. again, i'm curious what yours and david's thoughts are about dan's argument. >> it seems reasonable. there needs to be an interrogation of the reasons. what is the conception of russia that informs putin's decision, informed his decision to invade ukraine, and given that it's not going well, and given the history of russian nationalism, his own sense of being at the feet, at the foot of western europe in some ways. >> it's an imperial conception. if putin is trying to reestablish some sense of imperial greatness in the region, and russian power in general, and he sees the west as weak.

he sees the west as weak. he did not predict coalescing of nato. he did not predict the performance of the ukrainian leadership or its military. this has gone in no way like he thought it was. mr. drezner suggests we say this is not about russia's existence, fine, that's fine, and it's not. but the distance between saying that and resolving this is very long. it's very long. >> so first off, to mike's point, u.s. officials saying there's no suggestion anything has changed. no new intelligence citing the possibility of nuclear armageddon. he's talking in broad terms the idea that there's no change detected in moscow's nuclear posture. what has changed are seemingly more voices of dissent within the kremlin, more people are willing to say to putin, you got this wrong, your military is failing you, people are pointing fingers at each other, even the head of the military.

so that's where i was going to go. what does this mean? are we at a point where we could be talking about a post putin russia or is this dissent that he's going to eliminate. >> the politics are very different than they were in the mid-60s. in the mid-60s. you had a communist leadership to the outside world look like an absolute dictatorship, meaning the key to khrushchev was the general secretary of the communist party, but you also had collective leadership in the shape of the central committee. and at a certain point. the bureau and members of the central committee decided enough with nikita khrushchev for a variety of reasons we don't have to get into it, and they was overthrown and spent the rest of his life under heavy guard, murmuring his memoirs into a tape recorder. that's wait worked, and brezhnev took over. you don't have the system of collective leadership. you still, and what you are seeing, and it's very important to note this. people around him, by name, are

criticizing him for screwing this up. by the way, these are not lovely liberals. those people have been eliminated in large measure. their leadership, in fact, memorial just received a nobel prize today. he was also crushed by putin. people are in jail, all kinds of dissidents are in jail. these are dissents from his mill -- at the same time, the people, the russian people are starting to resist this in a way that we have not seen. we didn't even see three weeks ago, when he called up a mobilization, that hit home. the economy is crashing thousands and thousands of young men, many of them very educated, very valuable to the regime, are leaving. they are voting with their feet. they're not only going to georgia and places like that. they're going to central asia.

you never would have imagined this. things are cracking up in russia, and this is at the feet of the dictator who just turned 70 today. >> joe. >> it's just such a melt down. it's far more challenging for vladimir putin when the threat comes from the right instead of from liberal dissent that he's already crushed. gene robinson, i want to bring you in here because you look inside russia. you look around the world. whether you're looking at modi, or xi, or erdogan and vladimir putin is isolated. he doesn't have many friends at home or on the world stage but you write about one of them this morning, and that would be mbs in saudi arabia who gave vladimir putin a big, big, 70th birthday present by giving him a

lot more money to kill a lot more ukrainians. as you said, biden gave mbs, a fist pump, his reward, a gut punch. explain. >> well, you know, the saudis who lead opec, engineered this cut in production in opec, plus oil production of 2 million barrels a day, which will raise the price of oil, and that's all good for vladimir putin, and obviously mbs knows that. this is his call. this is, you know, biden -- president biden tried to sort of reset this relationship on a more reasonable footing. and, you know, no good deed goes unpunished. he went and did the fist bump, and now, yeah, so more money for

putin. i mean, it is fascinating because on the one hand, you know, world leaders are not coming out, you know, in india and china or whatever. they have doubts about this more than he's waging. and they're not taking actions to put pressure on putin to stop what he's doing. and that is, you know, this is so -- i keep looking back to the year's before world war i, and the sort of great power dynamic that seems to be taking shape and also the -- you know, before world war i, there was a sort of momentum that built, that nobody quite knew how to stop. now, you know, you look at putin

talking about existential threats to russia. his invasion has moved the center of gravity to nato to the east, closer to his borders and has strengthened nato, and now finland and sweden want to come into nato which makes the baltic sea into a nato lake. it's self-fulfilling prophesy almost for putin, and that's what makes it so difficult for me to see how we end the cycle, how we get on a better track because the track we're on now, seems to be a really really bad one. the momentum seems to be heading in a really really bad direction. and no one seems able to stop it. so if anybody has an idea of what that magic lever is that

somebody can push or pull, it would be a good time to surface. >> white house aides always hated that fist bump. it caught them by surprise. he didn't realize mbs would be greeting the presidential car there. it was described as incandescent rage in terms of how they feel ant saudi and opec plus, and this is what he gets in return. there's going to be after shocks here. the u.s. is going to evaluate the relationship with saudi arabia. we're hearing rattling about that now. david, what could be the domino effect for saudi arabia and the middle east. >> let's not under estimate the danger. on the other hand, vladimir putin has the stink of failure on him. he has the stink of failure internally, so you're starting to see dissent there in his ranks by name. i mean, the chechnyaen leader is actually criticizing putin. this would be unheard of three weeks ago, and at the same time, and it shouldn't be overlooked, the allies that he craves the

most, india and china, went to central asia to meet with him, and very clearly gave signals of criticism and distancing. that was not the case when the invasion began. you remember that modi and xi jinping gave kind of approving signals or certainly forgiving signals to russia, not so much anymore. so the stink of failure is on putin. you know, could be reversed. it's a very large army, no matter how incompetent it has proved so far. events, that's what will prove these things, and very hard calculations of world leaders will also be decisive. >> to see how he wants to handle it. the annual new yorker festival, by the way, returns in person this weekend after two years of being remote. the event celebrating arts and ideas kicks off tonight and runs through sunday evening in new york city, featuring some of the most fascinating and beloved

authors, film makers, actors, comedians, chefs and musicians of our time. david, tell us what more we can expect. finally back in person. >> thank you for that. it is nice to be back in person. on the stage i'll be talking with bono tonight, who has a new book coming and a lot of comedy, and politics and everything that makes "the new yorker" i hope what it is in three dimensions, and there are tickets available. >> all right. wonderful. it's wonderful to see you here in person. >> good to be here. >> as we stumble through covid. joe. >> mika, isn't bono eve's dad? >> we don't call him bono anymore. >> the young woman on bad sisters, she's amazing. >> she was on with us last week. >> i missed that, i'm very upset. bono is no longer bono, breaking news, eve's dad. >> i better look into that.

>> i come here for the news. >> you're going to be calling him the wrong news. >> i'll call him zimmy. >> eve's dad. i promise. >> i was going to say, you learned this on "morning joe," it's thank god. >> david, you need to watch "bad sisters." >> she's incredible. >> she is. >> we were watching the show, i was like, who is that. she's just an incredible actress, and somebody said, i think that's bono's daughter. no, no. >> no, no, bono is her father. >> he's a very proud dad. >> don't screw this up, david. >> got it. visit newyorker.com/festival to see the full lineup and buy tickets. david remnick, thank you so much, good to see you. >> great to be here. >> it's always spicy. still ahead on "morning joe," in just over an hour, the september

jobs numbers will be released. msnbc's andrew ross sorkin will break down exactly what it means, why a good jobs report is bad for the fed. plus, a college professor fired for his class being too difficult. we'll explain what happened at nyu. and later, huma abedin will be here with an exciting announcement here on "morning joe." you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. my asthma felt anything but normal. a blood test helped show my asthma is driven by eosinophils, which nucala helps reduce. nucala is a once-monthly add-on injection for severe eosinophilic asthma. nucala is not for sudden breathing problems.

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behavior can be regulated. even though it may be true that the law cannot change the heart, it can restrain the harness. even though it may be true that the law cannot make a man love me, it can restrain him from lynching me, and i think that's pretty important also, and so while the law may not change the hearts of man, it can and it does change the habits of men, and when you begin to change the habits of men, pretty soon the attitudes will be changed. pretty soon the hearts will be changed. >> martin luther king jr. speaking about his hope for america's future almost one year before his assassination. let's bring in right now, two time pulitzer prize journalist, tom ricks, his great new book "waging a good war" a military

history of the civil rights movement 1954-1968. the founding director for the center of founding race and democracy, dr. paneil joseph, professor of history at the university of texas, and author of the third reconstruction, and i understand he's a young man. somebody said he just turned 50. if so, congratulations. it just gets easier after 50, baby. just tell yourself that. tell yourself that. and anyway, thanks so much for being here. you know, tom, i think what's so fascinating about your book, there's a beautiful juxtaposition of the civil rights movement, the use of military training with the philosophy of jesus. nonviolence turning the other cheek, praying for those who

persecute you. hardly ever noticing when something is -- when you are wronged or at least trying to get that into your mind so you can actually move forward and not engage in violence. talk about that. >> confrontational nonviolence i think is at the key of the civil rights movement and the successes. one of the three lessons, i would say, we take away from the civil rights movement of the 1950s and 60s, nonviolence works, it has political authority and in political terms, it brings around the middle group that you want to have their support, you don't want to turn them off. they are turned off by violence. related to that, training and strategy are essential. training helps prevent violence. if people have discipline and understand how to operate. i think the third great lesson

is that a lot of the problems from the 1960s are still with us. stacey abrams down in georgia is focusing on attacks on voting rights. black lives matter and others have been focusing properly on police brutality, and the number of killings by police in this country. i want to defer her to professor joseph who has written a terrific book, precisely about where we are now. in this third reconstruction, as he calls it. >> eddie. >> i wanted to first of all, congratulations on your next book, this new book "the third reconstruction," i have been reading you for a long time. so give us a sense of the parameters of this reconstruction as you've described? what are its elements? what are the contradictions? what are the challenges that face the call for what we might think of as the third found something. >> yeah, thank you, eddie. when we think about the third

reconstruction, the four pivot points are the election of barack obama in 2008, the founding of black lives matter 1.0 in 2013, the rise of maga and donald trump in 2016, and then really all the juxtapositions we saw since 2020, the rise of blm, the racial disparities of the pandemic, the most racially divisive presidential election in american history, and then finally, you know, i look at the three wednesdays in january where we see the riot at the u.s. capitol on january 6th, the second impeachment of trump on january 13th and then the inauguration of biden and the first black woman vp on january 20th, 2021, and what we're seeing here, eddie are two different stories. one is a story of a reconstructionist story of supporters of multiracial democracy confronting a redemptionist narrative of

supporters of white supremacy. when we think about the crt hoax and the attack on truth teaching in the united states. voter suppression, this is all about the third reconstruction. tom's book is really a brilliant accounting of the second reconstruction through a military lens, and of course the first reconstruction which you've talked about other people have written about very brilliantly is those three decades after the civil war where we're trying to confront the emancipationist legacy of the civil war, right, and i think the lessons we learned are that stories count. the narratives we tell ourselves about who we are as americans are the most important stories we can tell. and so this third reconstruction, we're locked in a pitch battle between those who are supporters of, say, stories like the 1619 project or stories like what james baldwin tells us and you have told the baldwin story brilliantly, versus that

redemptionist story. the lost cause is bigger than white supremacy. it really thinks about things like tradition, a smaller government, authoritarianism, reimagined as heroism. so when we think about the parameters, we see racial progress during this third reconstruction. there always is progress, we also see this backlash during the third reconstruction, and what we have to do is tell a more compelling story about multiracial democracy that can lead to a kind of really a civic nationalism that understands that the struggle for black citizenship and dignity is the beating heart of american democracy. >> and tom, in your book, you talk about really recognizing the sacrifice of every member of the movement and you write in part this, no, the civil rights movement was not a traditional army with weapons and a single command structure, yet, from 1955, from 1968, a disciplined

mass of people waged a concerted, organized struggle in dedication to a cause greater than themselves. many died, many more shed blood, thousands were put behind bars. in conducting their campaigns, activists made life changing decisions with inadequate information, while operating under wrenching stress, and often facing violent attacks. the sacrifices of movement leaders and rank and file members led to a realized, if imperfect democracy. if we are to hold on to their gains, and reinforce them we must recognize the nature of their effort so that we can properly prepare ourselves to safeguard and sustain our democracy. mike barnicle. >> the metaphor that strings throughout your incredible book here. it strikes me that we're talking about in logistics and

communications, we're talking about prehistoric times, the mid-1950s and 1960s and yet the discipline shown by this marching army, this crusade, that was partially victorious, it's not completely victorious yet, as we just spoke to, but what are your thoughts about that given the passage of time, it's amazing what happened, what progress was made in the face of the obstacles that it confronted. >> the obstacles were enormous. that's one reason i'm optimistic about today is the civil rights movement looked like it had no power. all the power resided with the dominant cast, the white power structure in the south. they had all the political offices, they had the banks, the police forces, the jocks. yet, the civil rights movement had the moral authority. and i think this is a real

insight of professor josephs, if you have a narratives people understand and you have dignity and discipline in how you operate, you can gain the upper hand, and that is incredibly important in the eyes of america to maintain that moral authority. so i fundamentally come away with this with some optimism, and i was pleased to see at the end of professor joseph's book, that he's kind of optimistic, too, despite all the difficulties we're facing. >> tom, eventually, it came to changing hearts and minds. hearts and minds had to be changed. there was so much public opposition to what the civil rights movement was doing at the time, and a lot of those minds really didn't change until some of the victories were won. explain that dynamic, and how that might work or have lessons

for our times. >> i think two things were going on, especially in 1963 when the civil rights movement really moves on to the national stage. the first thing is a lot of people supported segregation as long as there was no cost to them. but once businessmen in corporations said wait a second, this is hurting us, they started reconsidering the cost, and you get a real split in the south between the business community and the white supremacist power structure. the second thing is, who competing visions of america were presented as professor joseph says these days. in 1963, bull connors america, police dogs and fire hoses being used against children, versus martin luther king's america presented in the i have a dream speech, and americans looked at the two and said, you know, we're going to go with martin

luther king on this one. >>. in closing, dr. peneil joseph, i want to touch on the optimism, do you feel optimism? >> i do, and here's why, i think what tom describes is the 1955-68 period that brings about a racial justice consensus in the united states that lasts for half a century, between june 11th, 1963, and june 25th, 2013, that's the start of john f. kennedy's racial justice speech on june 11th, all the way to the supreme court, in 2013, which ends voting rights as we know it. that 50-year consensus brings us michelle and barack obama, oprah winfrey, and it also brings you hillary clinton, the most women and people of color and black citizenship, and dignity and access in american history. we are living in a post consensus moment, which is why we feel in part so much

political divisions, at times disappointment, we're living in a context of attacks against american democracy, but we're also living in an age where multiracial democracy is on the rise. we saw this in 2020. we saw so many people say not only black lives matter, but people who are trans and api, and indigenous, poor white people locking arm in arm, 25 million, the most in american history. so we see that there's a different narrative of the united states that can bring us together. one thing i would tell people is that my book, just like tom's book, is a book that talks about america aspirationally, right, at our best, the country can be a transformational beacon of justice and liberty and dignity and citizenship, and during the first, second and parts of the third reconstruction, we've seen freedom and justice and

democracy, all we have to do is reach for that story and institutionalize that story. the story we tell ourselves about america is a story that creates our reality. if we venerate the confederacy, that's the reality we create, but if we venerate abolition democracy, that's what du bois called it, the end of systemic punishment between all people, we're going to co-create that society that really makes multiracial democracy and reconstruction the vision for us for our children and our future. >> dr. peneil joseph, thank you very much, his new book is entitled "the third reconstruction, america's struggle for racial justice in the 21st century" and tom ricks, thank you for a great discussion this entire week. his book is "waging a good war, a military history of the civil rights movement 1954 to 1968" thank you both very much. and coming up, a college

professor who literally wrote the book on organic chemistry is fired for making his class too hard. that's next when "morning joe" returns. hard that's next when "morning joe" returns. it's the subway series menu! 12 irresistible subs... like #4 supreme meats. smoky capicola, genoa salami and pepperoni! it's the dream team of meats. i've still got my uniform. it's subway's biggest refresh yet.

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45 past the hour. it was a headline in the "new york times" that really caught our attention. at nyu students were failing organic chemistry. who was to blame, mate maitlen jones said 82 of his 350 students filed a petition against him saying his class was too difficult and blamed him for

their failing grades, and just before the start of the fall semester, the university terminated the professor. joining us now, writer and author jill filipovich, writing about this incident in a piece entitled, this fired chemistry professor shows what's wrong with academia. you graduated from nyu. >> did you take organic cem. >> i would have failed, which is why i didn't take it. >> i wouldn't even touch organic chemistry. >> i would not get near it. definitely would have filled. can you fill out the story a little bit, the chemistry professor himself who is renowned in the world of academia for this subject, he feels he was fired for this reason. >> so professor jones was a tenured professor at princeton before he came to nyu as an adjunct. >> okay, eddie. >> that does put him in a pretty

unique position as adjunct faculty at nyu. most adjuncts are not coming from previously tenured positions. most are not in such a respected role, but his class was notoriously difficult. students complained, notably, students didn't ask for him to be fired. the discourse blaming students a little bit unfair, but some e-mails from the administration that were published by the times did indicate that the administration was quite concerned about parents. and those who hold the purse strings and the tuition dollars, and what happens if those parents are unhappy, so to me, that's the more interesting question, how much power do parents have, and then what obligations do university administrations have to stand up for their adjunct faculty who are vulnerable, and don't have the same employment protections as tenured professors. >> i'm going to turn this over to you, but there's some thoughts i have in terms of is the dynamic different given

covid, were kids showing up for class, is that an issue that you're seeing? you know, things are changing, and a lot of kids, younger people are making decisions for themselves about how much they want to do or not do in life. do you think that plays into this at all? i say this all really carefully. >> yeah, i think there's an interesting combination of things here, right, so it is the case that covid has created a condition that has changed the nature of instruction. students have experienced trauma. and in the midst of coming back after being isolated, right, after being on lock down, the nature of what rigor looked like as students are grappling with the loss of family and friends, isolation, it changed. folks relaxed their standards this certain ways. organic chemistry is notorious. it's the wash out course for

premed. i think here, and you let me know if i'm wrong here. there's a kind of convergence of a consumer-based higher education where the consumer has become more important as tuition costs rise. this wonderful book we talked about on this show, higher education the public good, what you can afford. these people are buying product are demanding certain concessions, and then you combine that with the precarity of adjunct professor, contract employees who can be fired because of consumer demand. you get this disaster, what do you think? >> i think that's exactly right. once you start treating education as a consumer product instead of as a public good, administrators, professors, students and parents all have a totally different set of incentives. i do think that professor jones is right that he has seen a significant shift in student, not abilities, but performance, certainly post covid, and

particularly since this class it sound like was kind of a hybrid in person, online, he may not have been used to teaching that. i think there were a lot of different factors at play here, but i do think you're correct that fundamentally at heart, the question is what is the role an educational institution? and what is its role in a universe now where these elite institutions are more competitive than ever, where giving a student a failing grade can change the trajectory of their future. students understand, particularly if they're in the middle of the class, they're standing on the edge of a cliff and they have to go to that next step or else what's down below seems terrifying. so i understand why students were quite aggressive about wanting better grades. perhaps they were correct that this class was too hard and the professor didn't help students to the degree he should have. to me, this comes down to an administrative problem. less a student problem, less a

professor problem. >> let's back up here, do you know what the professor jones, was his relationship was with students? did he have an open door? did he speak with students? what was his relationship with the administration? let's take covid off the table. i respect eddie very much, but we're not talking about fourth or fifth graders here, we're talking about people in college, young adults. what was the relationship between the professor and his students? >> i want to be clear, i was not the reporter on this story, but according to nyu's student newspaper, and they had an informative editorial they published about this story, they said this professor was notoriously harsh with students, notoriously did not have an open door. students feared asking him questions, and he, partly for that reason, had the lowest ratings of any professor in the

organic chemistry department. there were clearly instructal issues here. >> did anybody else teach organic chemistry? >> yes. >> why weren't these students in college smart enough to take their course? >> i think a lot of them did seek out other professors, if it's a requirement in the sophomore year, let's say, you have to take what you can get. if all the other courses are full, you will end up in the scary, hard course. >> jill filipovic, thank you very much. interesting piece. up next, president biden moves closer to fulfilling a campaign promise on decriminalizing marijuana. plus, we've heard from herschel walker a lot this week following a report that he paid for a former girlfriend's abortion. now we're finally hearing from his opponent in the race for georgia's senate seat. that's ahead on "morning joe."

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a live look at times square in new york city as we look at the morning headlines. in georgia, the "atlanta journal constitution" reports the u.s. will start diverting and screening travelers from uganda from the highly contagious and deadly ebola virus at several major airports including in atlanta amid an outbreak of the virus in uganda. the virus in the u.s. is seen as low and there are no suspected probable or confirmed cases of ebola here. the u.s. government is conducting screenings out of an abundance of caution. to delaware now where the news journal reports the state's supreme court yesterday heard arguments on whether allowing

all registered voters the choice to cast their ballots through the mail violates the state's constitution. the supreme court is expected to make a ruling before the general election on november 8th. currently state law requires registered voters to provide an excuse in order to cast an absentee ballot. the tennessean reports on mounting stress being felt by election workers ever since former president trump began falsely claiming that the 2020 presidential election was stolen. local election workers across the country have been inundated with conspiracy theories and election falsehoods and hounded with harassment. they've been targeted by threats, stressed by rising workloads and stretched budgets. the stress and vitriol have

created a shortage of staff and poll workers. in ohio, the columbus dispatch claims donald trump jr. traveled to ohio to stump for j.d. vance. a close race is prompting national republican groups to pour money into ohio in order to help vance keep up with ryan's fund-raising advantage. still ahead on "morning joe," we're just a half hour away from the release of the september jobs report. we'll take a look at those numbers and explain how a good report could be bad for the economy. plus president biden ramps up the rhetoric against russia warning we're the closest to armageddon than we've been in 60 years. and a leader of the proud boys pleads guilty to seditious conspiracy and agrees to cooperate with prosecutors. and a new date for the next and potentially final hearing of

the january 6th committee. all of that and a live report from florida as the death toll from hurricane ian continues to climb. we're back in one minute. trying to control my asthma felt anything but normal. ♪ ♪ enough was enough. i talked to an asthma specialist and found out my severe asthma is driven by eosinophils, a type of asthma nucala can help control. now, fewer asthma attacks and less oral steroids that's my nunormal with nucala. nucala is a once-monthly add-on injection for severe eosinophilic asthma. nucala is not for sudden breathing problems. allergic reactions can occur. get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing.

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>> thank you. >> also with us is the co-host of "the circus" jennifer palmieri. joe, great hour ahead as we launch the third hour -- third of four hours of -- not complaining. it's great. of "morning joe." >> we're only doing four today. i thought we were doing 16. >> let's -- let me ask you about what's going on in arizona. you know, it's fascinating. this year we had a couple of narratives. the first one was the democrats would get wiped out. that was the first part of the year because of joe biden's low, historically low approval ratings. those have come up. you had the dobbs decision. there seemed to be a second narrative which was the democrats will do much better. i think some people overshooting the mark saying how great the democrats will do.

but now we seem to be moving to a new phase. there's nothing more sobering than seeing herschel walker with all of his problems and seeing perhaps some of the most radical anti-democratic major party candidates that we have out in arizona, election deniers, democracy deniers, who are doing extraordinarily well in the governor's race and even that senate race, which is tightening up as i actually always suspected it would, if you look at 2020. what are you seeing out there? >> yeah. it continues to be ground zero for the debate over election denial. i'm not sure if people have been paying attention to the statewide races in arizona outside of the senate race, but arizona is on the verge of electing a trump-endorsed election denier as governor and on the verge of electing a

trump-endorsed election denier in a critical race of secretary of state in the former mark finchem. katie hobbs, the democrat running for governor is up four points. mark finchem is four points up in the race to be secretary of state in the state of arizona. kari lake, the republican nominee here for governor, i've trailed her for a couple of days, she's friends -- an extraordinarily effective communicator. perhaps even more effective than trump. unlike trump, she doesn't hit you over the head with conspiracy theories about the election. she just weaves everything through subtly and skillfully with a light touch, but it permeates all of what she says.

>> but the fact is -- >> they have an energetic, big following. >> she is an election denier. i had a friend running against her in the primary. she infused her campaign with qanon type conspiracies, talking about pedophiles all the time. wanted to have cameras in every classroom in the state of arizona because of this so-called pedophilia epidemic. my friend said i don't know if he need cameras in every classroom in the state of arizona. she immediately accused a guy who had been long respected on both sides of the aisle of being a champion of pedophiles. that's what we're talking about here. just the most extreme of extreme candidates.

and she does not back down. blake masters, also a senate candidate, he was an election denier. he said all the conspirers conspired against donald trump. if he was in the senate, he would have voted to not certify arizona's votes in the 2020 election. last night on the debate stage he was trying to moderate when he was on the debate stage with mark kelly, he was trying to back pedal. kari lake does not back down or back pedal. she keeps piling on. she has a -- she's a very -- she's a former television anchor. sarah palin had her hockey moms, kari lake has her mama bears. i went to an event, women for kari lake, she's very relatable, a very formidable candidate.

i think we need to -- there's the real possibility she will win here. i saw her on stage with kristi noem, the sitting governor of south dakota, you wonder am i looking at the 2024 ticket? she is a real force. >> well, i actually had somebody else tell me after they saw those two together, they said i think you're looking at the 2024 ticket. here's a short clip from "the circus" that features kari lake. >> you said in the primary, your voters outvoted the fraud. are you worried in the general election you won't be able to accomplish the same thing? >> i'm always worried about voter fraud. we have a system that people don't have faith in. i want to see cleaning up voter rolls. i want to make sure we don't go to a home where there's one voter and five ballots show up. i want to make sure we count the

vote fairly. i think there's a major problem with the electronic voting machines. we'll look at those. >> it's fascinating, mike barnicle, there's certain tv news networks facing billion dollar settlements or maybe verdicts because of the lies about those voting machines. we've heard the lies about the mail-in ballots. but, again, you have more of the same where you have certain trump republicans spreading conspiracy theories and continuing to spread conspiracy theories, and then when the followers start repeating the theories, you know, we're just talking about this because people are concerned. they're concerned because you're spreading conspiracy theories about voting. >> watching kari lake on clips, she's incredibly consistent and

on point in what she talks about. whether she believes it or not, we'll never know. the larger point is the failure of people in the united states senate and washington, d.c. to deal with this issue. by that i mean we've just seen the horrific events in southwest florida. what happened after the hurricane struck that coast? people went to work immediately because it was an emergency, it was a disaster. so you have the electoral college reform act and they've been talking about it in the senate and talking about it in the senate and everybody agrees it's necessary, even mitch mcconnell, we have to get this bill down, where are they? they're home until november in dealing with something that takes care of -- you can hear the nuts and bolts of our democracy popping loose in the foundation and they're home until november without dealing with it. >> yeah. you know, the thing is, we've said for quite some time here, and republicans, conservatives

have said it, this could be a huge year for republicans, maybe it still will be, if you look at the extreme candidates that donald trump endorsed, the primary voters went along with, a lot of those candidates will win, but not as many most likely as would have won if they had gone with a mainstream candidate that wasn't spreading qanon conspiracy theories, wasn't spreading conspiracy theories about american elections. it's fascinating. we'll see how it plays out. let's go from arizona to georgia. obviously, there's another example where republicans should be 10 points ahead if they selected actually somebody qualified to be a united states senator. >> yeah. this is about former nfl star and candidate for georgia senate, herschel walker who is pushing back against the daily beast report that he paid for a former girlfriend's abortion, and that the woman is the mother of one of his other children.

during a campaign stop yesterday, walker denied the allegations calling the report a lie and an attempt by democrats to damage his campaign. >> have you reached out to any of the mothers of your children? >> no. >> to ask why? why not? >> why do i need to? >> because, according to the article, one -- the woman who says you paid for her to have an abortion is also the mother of one of your children. it seems like that's an easy way -- >> because of the article i have more kids, i said no. that's what i mean when i say no, it's not correct. it's a lie. the democrats are desperate for this seat. >> but your family -- >> they're desperate for this seat. i love my family. i'm going to win this race. i know i'm going to win this race. >> in a radio interview earlier in the day, walker denied the report but also said if it did happen, it was nothing to be ashamed of.

>> i know nothing about any woman having an abortion and so they can keep coming at me like that. if that had happened, i would have said, there's nothing to be ashamed of there. people have done that, but i know nothing about it. and if i knew about it, i would be honest and talk about it. but i know nothing about that. >> well, but the problem is he has not been honest about just about anything as it pertains to his personal life. he's been caught in one lie after another whether you're talking about the four children or him claiming he worked for the fbi or him graduating from the university of georgia. one lie after another lie stacked up and now he seems to be backtracking, even though he said he was talking about something else, different allegations in that -- after he got caught, he said, well, if i did do it, i'm not ashamed of it. we already have him

backtracking. >> ladies and gentlemen, that's your u.s. senate republican candidate for the great state of georgia. this is what they serve up. it's stunning. what's stunning is that he's still in the race. >> he's in the game. >> it's within four points was the most recent thing. what's interesting -- i go back to arizona also and lake, and you see what's so scary about her is the packaging versus trump. trump, it's so easy to dismiss, he's crazy. he's racist. all of these things. then when we have some of these better packaged candidates, desantis, lake, you kind of go, wait a second. if that's a message that is winning, that's where this country is. that's the secret part. we take some solace, donald trump, only 38%, 40%, still the country and majority is not this extremist reactionary anti-progressive type country. but then you package these same

policies, slicker, more appealing, more digestible, and you go wait a second, can you just now paint them in the corner that they're crazy, extremist, they will never win? no, they can win. the scary point is not the candidates, it's the number of people getting behind these candidates. these trumpist candidates who are not donald trump. >> herschel walker yesterday also was asked -- he received criticism from a republican in georgia, lieutenant governor there. spoke out against him. and walker had no idea who he was when he was asked about it. as mike said earlier, the senate is out. a lot of republican senators can avoid questions about herschel walker and other republican candidates. those who have spoken out have defended him. republican voters are also speaking out with their wallets and walker's fund-raising numbers have soared this week. what does this say right now about that party? >> two things at least. it's a cynical approach.

their only concern -- you guys talked about this, it's all about power. nothing to do about -- nothing to do with service. nothing to do with competency. nothing to do with the well-being of the country. they just want to hold power. it's cynical in that sense. it's cynical that they put up this black man who is obviously not qualified to be in the senate because he's running against a black man, raphael warnock. if it was a white candidate on the other side, there would be no way herschel walker would be the candidate for the republican party in the state of georgia. it's a cynical deployment of race, which is consistent with what's happening across the political landscape, whether it's ron johnson sending dog whistles in wisconsin against mandela barnes to this moment, this is not only embarrassing, it's dangerous. it's dangerous because it's playing to our base race

instincts. >> joe? >> boy, by the way, i saw marco rubio and -- against val demings, of course accused her of wanting little boys to turn into little girls. >> whoa. >> just the most outrageous charges. you do look at him. you go how -- how did that guy go from where he was, a lot of people were looking at him as possibly the future of the republican party, the contrasting and the darkening of the val demings skin on the commercial, it's just so cynical, so outrageous. you know -- marco, i don't get it. i think -- despite the fact i've been in politics for a long time, i guess i'm just naive. i'm still naive. i can't imagine somebody wanting

to be in office that much that they would stoop as low as these trump republicans are stooping. surprised every day. i guess that's on me. >> i mean, that's fair enough. jen palmieri, then the question is what do the democrats do? i think your point is well taken, especially about the arizona candidates that you have been watching. it's very clear -- i would say kari lake is trumpy, but she's way better than donald trump. she's way more talented at what she does. she is way more deft. she is -- as you said, consistent. she weaves in and out of the conspiracy theories and wraps it up in a bow. it's frightening. i hear you loud and clear and add to it the trumpiness is not the word to describe kari lake because she's way better. way better.

having said that, what do the democrats do to this torrent of disinformation and then dealing with the realities in front of us, inflation, which is a fair issue that republicans will pounce on. it's probably all they got, but it's a big one for voters. >> yeah. i see -- in arizona, you see the candidates -- mark kelly and katie hobbs, the democratic nominee for governor wrestling with this. what do they argue? the problem for them is the greatest threat, the greatest threat is the election denial. the greatest threat and the reason why you want -- why you want to ensure there's a democratic secretary of state and democratic governor is for that reason. when you're running a race, you have to meet the voters where they are. they are talking about inflation, the economy and abortion. i think if -- if mark kelly and

katie hobbs end up winning in arizona, that will be a big part of the reason why. when you look at the advertising, the dollars speak, that's what most of their ads are about. their ads are about that and the economy. but, you know, that's the struggle. voters don't necessarily want to hear about election integrity and why it's so important because they have these other problems in their lives, but at the same time, that's the biggest threat. i see the candidates at least m as an election issue more because in the end you got to face up to what that fight really is about. i don't think you can duck it. i went to an event last night for the secretary of state candidate, and he had a huge turnout. not something you normally find in october in a secretary of state race, but they're trying

to ratchet up that pressure. as the notion that kari lake might actually win becomes more apparent in this state, it's easier to make that argument about what's at stake for democracy than it is when people just assume that, like she couldn't possibly win here. >> the new episode of "the circus" airs this sunday night on show time. jen palmieri, thank you very much for being here. donny, how do democrats from georgia to pennsylvania, how do they get elections fought on their ground? if you're in arizona, georgia, pennsylvania, inflation is top of mind. the economy is top of mind. overwhelming majority of americans believe we're headed in the wrong direction.

in philadelphia, crime is a massive issue. maybe it's enough of an issue to help dr. oz in the philly suburbs. the southern border, a massive issue among the republican base and a lot of independents. in arizona, a big issue there, too. a lot of things coming at the democrats. the democratic candidates. how do they -- you have done this before -- how do they get the debate on their terms? >> i said this before, you and i talked a lot about this. it's become a referendum on the economy, or you make it a referendum on crazy. i said all along all you need to do -- make it a referendum on crazy, on january 6th, make it a referendum on insurrection or on roe v. wade, make it a referendum on guns, but then you see the better packaged candidates like the kari lakes of the world and say wait a second, even if i tee up the issues that way, does that do the job? this is an easy one, just shine

the light on it. it's either a maga world, anti-democracy, or it's a world where we believe in democracy. even that argument seems to be weakening when some of those crime issues are on the table. i'm at a loss. i stand by what i said, but it's scary that even that, if you get that right, that might not be a winning strategy which shows us where we are. >> yes. donny deutsch, thank you very much for being on this morning. still ahead on "morning joe," a closer look at the growing nuclear threat from russia as president putin faces growing dissent in his own camp. we'll get a report from moscow. plus senator dick durbin will join us after a federal appeals court left the fate of hundreds of thousands of dreamers in limbo. and huma abedin will be here with a big announcement on "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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bureaucratic roadblocks. so teachers, nurses, firefighters and workers like us can live where we work. while prop e makes it nearly impossible to build more housing join habitat for humanity in rejecting prop e, and supporting prop d to build more affordable housing for everyone. now. speaking last night in new york city, president biden said the risk of nuclear armageddon is the highest it's been in roughly 60 years since president kennedy and the cuban missile crisis. it all stems from russia's flailing invasion of ukraine. biden said president vladimir putin is not joking when he talks about potential use of tactical nuclear weapons or biological or chemical weapons because his military is, you might say, significantly underperforming. russia faced huge setbacks on the battlefield as ukraine

forces continue to take back land illegally occupied by moscow. there has been widespread concern that putin could use a weapons of mass destruction to regain some footing in the war. but in the words of president biden "i don't think there's any such thing as the ability to easily use a tactical nuclear weapon and not end up with armageddon." this has been one of the crises out of this war, joe, that perhaps one couldn't easily predict from the get go because nobody i think could imagine how well the ukrainians would do, how resilient, how unbelievably strong in the face of evil, really, and atrocities happening on their land, to their people. yet they continue to push the russians back. i don't think anyone can predict what happens when putin is actually realistically in a

corner. >> well, it's -- he's actually in that corner now. dan dresdner had a great piece out yesterday, which we'll be talking about a bit, where he was talking about this talk of absolute victory by ukraine. and talking about the pushing of putin further into the corner creates with it quite -- quite a few problems for us. up next, we'll go to keir simmons who is reporting from inside russia, how vladimir putin is responding to his losses on the front lines and the growing internal criticism from members of russia's own elite. that is next on "morning joe." ty to treat hiv. it's every-other-month, injectable cabenuva. for adults who are undetectable, cabenuva is the only complete, long-acting hiv treatment you can get every other month. cabenuva helps keep me undetectable. it's two injections, given by my healthcare provider, every other month. it's one less thing to think about while traveling. hiv pills aren't on my mind.

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welcome back. russian president vladimir

putin's mishandling of the war in ukraine has come under a torrent of criticism. according to the "new york times," the russian leader faces growing dissent in his own camp. the paper reports the latest salvo came on thursday when a russian-installed official in the occupied region of ukraine belittled the kremlin's defense minister. the official said the minister should consider killing himself because of his army's failures in ukraine. the criticism appears to be widespread. the times continues, the head of the defense committee in russia's lower house of parliament excoriated the defense ministry for covering up the bad news from the front. members of parliament wrote to the prosecutor's general asking for an investigation into the military's supply problems. war bloggers and public officials have gone from cheerleading russia's advances to grumbling ever more loudly

about the military's failings. this as one member of vladimir putin's inner circle has voiced disagreement directly to the russian president himself of his handling of the war in ukraine. according to information obtained by u.s. intelligence, the "washington post" reports the information was deemed significant enough that it was included in president biden's daily intelligence briefing and shared with other u.s. officials, according to people familiar with the matter. the criticism marks the clearist indication yet of turmoil within russia's leadership over the stewardship over a war that has gone disastrously wrong for moscow. joe? >> let's go to moscow, and nbc news senior international correspondent keir simmons, keir, it is notable there's a rising tide of criticism against russian officials, but vladimir

putin and other leaders are not cracking down on that dissent. right now, they are allowing that dissent. what can you tell us, perhaps, about that strategy and the general debate about how this war has gone sideways? >> joe, i think it sells us something very, very important. i think it tells us president putin is under pressure from his hardliners here in moscow. from that reporting overnight, from the "washington post," the member of his inner circle that allegedly confronted him, dmitry peskov has denied that president putin was directly confronted. according to that reporting, it was a member of putin's inner circle. we don't know anyone. we don't know the name. the idea that there are divisions in the inner circle, that is not news.

it could be the former head of the fsb, now the secretary of the security council. it could be the person who runs gasprov, who was with president putin in germany in the kgb, and runs the military company here in russia. i mean, frankly it could be anyone. his rivalry with shoygu, the defense minister, goes back years, it is well known. the idea that one of those members of the inner circle would go to president putin and say we think your defense minister, shoygu, is letting you down. that is entirely believable. what i think is crucial, back to my answer, what i think is really crucial is to understand that there are really very few liberals left here in russia. many of them, even those liberals who were with president putin back in st. petersburg have left the country.

>> keir simmons, thank you very much. coming up, new reporting on one of the few countries to support russia's invasion, north korea, which continues to rattle the region with its own missile tests. the latest on that next on "morning joe." "morning joe." it's the subway series menu. 12 irresistible subs. the most epic sandwich roster ever created. ♪♪ it's subway's biggest refresh yet! i'm javi, i'm 31, and i'm a fitness instructor. i saw myself in a photograph. and we were all smiling, and i looked closer, and i was like that- that's what everybody sees? i'm back, and i got botox® cosmetic. the lines were so prominent it's all i saw in the photograph, so now when i take photos, and i see myself in photos, its- it's me, i just have fewer lines. botox® cosmetic is fda-approved to temporarily make frown lines, crow's feet,

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while prop e makes it nearly impossible to build more housing. and the supervisors who sponsored e know it. join me, habitat for humanity and the carpenters union in rejecting prop e and supporting prop d to build more affordable housing . tensions escalating on the korean peninsula as the recent barrage of missile tests by north korea have prompted the u.s., south korea and japan to conduct joint military drills in response. the pentagon yesterday condemned north korea's actions calling them destabilizing, unhelpful and irresponsible and urged the dprk to cease them immediately. joining us now is janis mackey frayer. >> we've seen the u.s. strengthening its military position around the korean

peninsula with the return of the "uss ronald reagan" military strike group, trying autry lateral exercising for the next couple of days. at the same time, moving in new equipment to south korea for the t.a.d. missile system, that will be something a thorn in the side, less for north korea than for china. all of this coming just a day after north korean war planes were carrying out firing drills along the border, forcing south korea to send up 30 aircraft in response. so we're seeing this ramping up that has been familiar territory here. certainly reminiscent of 2017. the difference now, though, is in the pattern of the launches between now and five years ago is that north korea's missiles appear to be more advanced.

they're quicker to deploy. they're proving to be more accurate. they're proving to be stronger. the other difference i've seen this time is almost near silence from pyongyang. usually by this point, after firing that intercontinental ballistic missile right over japan on tuesday, we would have had images, we would have had video. we would have had officials within the regime, trumpeting the accomplishment. but there has been only a two-line statement, talking about the u.s., stoking tension in the region with the return of that aircraft carrier. and kim jong-un hasn't been seen in public for over three weeks now. even his birthday message to vladimir putin was a statement that was delivered by state media. >> janis mackey frayer, thank you very much. coming up, senator dick durbin is standing by. he joins us at the top of the hour. and andrew ross sorkin will break down this morning's

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who at age 65 says she's a long way from putting down the palette. >> having revolutionized the beauty industry with her namesake brand, bobbi brown said women should look and feel natural. after selling her company for $74 million in the '90s, they didn't worry about signing a 25-year noncompete agreement. back then she thought by the time it expired, she would be retired n her '60s. wrong. by 2020, bobbi who had been working for her brand as an employee launched a new direct to consumer beauty line, jones road, she did it the day her noncompete ended, she was 62 and so not retired. jones road developed a massive fan base, especially on tick

tock around bobbi's concept of minimalistic and cruelty-free beauty products. at 65 and a brand-new grandmother, she says she feels like this is her best decade beauty knowledge distilled. what does that mean? >> just that it's -- i've learns do much and i just know how to make it really simple. so i just kind of broke it down into, like, the simple things that matter. >> so, 30 years ago you couldn't have created this brand. >> 100% not. 100% not. so much has changed personally for me and in our world that jones road is really a reflection of me and my aesthetic and what i think women should know. >> did you ever imagine, like, your career after 50 years old, 55, 60, 65? did you plan for that? >> first of all, my first job was selling shoes, and then i went to school to study makeup.

so, did i think i was ever going to do anything remarkable? not really. and when my husband and i sold our first business, i signed a 25-year noncompete, which counted on my fingers, i would have been 60 when the noncompete was up. i wouldn't want to work when i was 60, i thought, when i was 32 years old. e when it went away, which was the day i launched my new makeup company, i was 64 years old. >> did you regret signing the noncompete? >> i don't regret anything. >> a 25-year noncompete? i've never heard that. >> i didn't know any better. when you're in your early to mid-30s, how can you even imagine being in your 60s? that just sounded so old to me. >> and by the way, it was old, when we were in our 30s, 60s was older. now i have a friend who's in his 80s who just went to burning man. i think there's a groundswell

from positivity about aging, and by the way, it comes from inside of you. no one's going to hand it to you. you have to just see the positive side of it. >> so i think you told "the f.t." you never want to be part of a billion-dollar brand again. >> i did say that, but it's heading in that direction. >> you can take it back. >> ican take it back. i don't want to do what i did. i want to do it differently. >> what are you not doing anymore? >> i don't hire consultants. i don't hire focus groups. i have the internet. my people tell me what they think and feel. i like being the boss. i like having people around me that give their opinion and tell me what they think, but i like being the boss. >> let's talk about that. you're direct to consumer. >> we have one store. >> one store? >> one store. >> one store. >> in montclair, new jersey. yeah. which is going gangbusters. >> and a lot because of tiktok? >> i think a lot because of

tiktok but a lot because my team and, you know, things have shifted. they used to be facebook ads that turned into instagram added as and now we're turning into tiktok added as. my team is young and scrappy and finger on the pulse, and they just get things done. >> and it's you talking a lot. >> it's me talking. fortunately or unfortunately, i'm the one that -- >> you are -- >> i know. >> you're a tiktok star. >> yes. and everyone has to say, you know, bobbi brown tiktok sensation, comma, 65. they have to say it. my head of social is my daughter-in-law. my head of marketing is my son. my husband is doing the business with me, so it's turned into a family affair. >> have you thought of any adjustments along the way, given what we've learned, about the impact social media -- not necessarily your social media -- >> yeah. >> -- but a lot of young girls are struggling with their self-image and their mental

health. >> right. right. >> because of some of these platforms kind of influencing them. >> mm-hmm. i mean, of course, we are very sensitive, and there's things that i might say that i won't say on video. and, you know, everyone is sensitive to a lot of things, so we're always careful with what we say. you know, no one wants to insult anyone, and, you know, i happen to be, like, you know, a nice person who cares about people. so i like to empower people and not make people feel bad. >> in fact, we probably need more of this type of thing on social media. what do you think your greatest accomplishment was in your life, if you can -- you have a lot of them, but over the age of 50? >> i think, first of all, helping women of all ages to feel comfortable in their skin and to empower people to let them know that i really do believe that you can do anything you set your mind to. so, you know, it's what you do with what's handed to you that matters. >> it appears that you feel

empowered to speak your mind and be who you are. >> pretty much. pretty much. did that come with age? >> of course. of course. i mean, i am different in my 60s than i was in my 50s, and i'm going to tell you how much better 60s are than 50s. >> really. >> yeah. and 40s. like, all my decades -- 30s was so interesting because i sold the company, i had two kids, you know, i lived out of the city, i was learning new things, i was crazy traveling. 40s was interesting. i had a baby, and things got more settled. but then they were super, super busy. and then 50s were, like, okay, i still feel good in my 50s, i look good, i'm still working, and 60s was an oh, my gosh, it could be anything you want it to be. >> what's your advice to younger women who feel so rushed? >> well, it's funny. some of the women feel that way. others, because of the pandemic,

have started living their life differently and making different choices. >> and there's a long runway. >> there is a long runway. by the way, i think about myself being 70 and 80 and 90 and who i want to be, how i want to feel, and what i want to be doing. and i know there's going to be something that i haven't done yet because what else am i going to do except try things, right? >> and whatever she does, she will do it on her own terms. you can see the full interview with bobbi brown at knowyourvalue.com. and the announcements continue. we have the "50 over 50" list. and we'll be on the summit in abu dhabi in march. huma abedin played an integral role at our last summit, a global event that gathered

generations of women from both the forbes 30 under 30 list and our forbes 50 over 50 lists. huma was a speak, a moderator, and presented hillary clinton with our international women's day lifetime achievement award. and huma joins us now. her best-selling book, "both/and" was released in paper back earlier this week. she is joining the msnbc and "morning joe" family. you're with us here. and we're so happy to have you. i'm so excited about this year's summit. >> i can't tell you how excited i am to be part of ono your value, part of the summit. as you know, i've been traveling for the last year talking about my book, and i was so moved and struck by that experience in abu dhabi, and i'm thrilled about this list. what i loved about the list is that there are so many women we've heard of like bobbi brown,

like hoda kotb and delores, but i love we're shining a light on women you've never heard of who are doing extraordinary work that should be lifted up. >> and so talented, from so many generations, well above 50, 60, 70, 80, 90. what happens in abu dhabi, we bring in luminaries and it is this massive international mentoring event. it's so great that you're going to be vice chairing it because that means you'll be back, and we'll have a great time there. we'll talk about your book, which is now out in paperback. it's a remarkable book. it chronicles your life, traveling the world with the clintons, your life as a little girl, and also the painful moments in your life as well that you share. i'm curious how you have evolved given the reaction you've gotten to the book since it has initially come out. >> you know, i have -- my favorite events are events at

universities and talking to young people and talking to women, especially. and the number of people who come to me and say, well,000 did you know everything was going to be okay, how did you know you'd be successful in life? and i have spent the better part of the last year saying to them, consider doing the thing that scares you the most. i certainly did. wrote my book, told my story. and if the 2022 version of me could caulk to the 2016 version of me, she would not believe life could be so good. >> yeah. the things that scare you and that seem so unbelievably traumatic, you find yourself not just being victorious over those moments but adding them to your bank of experiences that make you stronger. joe wants to jump in. joe? >> huma, first of all, congratulations, and welcome. it's so exciting to have you here with us. it was great, actually, in the abu dhabi event. i got to tell you that mika of

course was -- she just hated not being there, and the fact that you were there, though, and it works do seamlessly i thought it was just an extraordinary -- what you did and also an extraordinary event. i am curious, because there's a reason why mika wanted to go to abu dhabi. there's a reason why she wanted to talk about women's rights in the gulf region and in the middle east. and it's because things are changing there. and let's talk about iran. what an extraordinary uprising. these aren't women who are activists following a leader. we're seeing images of middle-schoolgirls rising up against iranian authorities. what's happening and what does that mean to you? >> well, for me, i mean, i've watched with fury just like the rest of the world when mahsa