counter that in a way that doesn't bring you, the u.s., to the brink of using a nuclear weapon. here's the other thing president biden was correct about. there is no safe way to use a tactical nuclear weapon that doesn't bring us down this road. -- >> yes. >> wargames repeatedly showed that when you start down this road, there are major escalatory risks. that's what biden is trying to do. deter him from -- and prepare responses that are non nuclear -- sure he would do. it >> okay, joseph cirincione, that was very illuminating, it's not super encouraging. i appreciate that very much. well, that is the week. it's friday night! that's all in with chris hayes for this, week alex wagner tonight starts right now. good evening, alex. , there >> we go! if it ends a nuclear weapon, it is not safe. all right, you have done your duty, chris. half seven and a half three for

me. thank you, as always. and thanks to you at home, for joining us this hour. this week, bloomberg news publishes story about the documents donald trump had sent down to mar-a-lago at the end of his presidency. the story went to some detail about who packed the boxes containing those documents. i'm going to spoil the ending here by telling you that it was the white house -- not the general services administration -- the gsa, that pack those boxes, which is counter to what donald trump has insisted for several months now. but it is maybe not surprising, given the other wild claims he has made in the course of this whole mar-a-lago saga. but a complaining that bloomberg story was a picture of the document boxes that were sent down to trump's beach club. this is it right here. look at that. i don't know about you wet the first thing i thought when i saw that photo was, wow. that is a lot of documents. i mean, we have seen some of the documents that were found in the fbi search of mar-a-lago laid out on the floor in evidence voters like this one here.

but the sheer volume of the paper on this giant green palette -- these green wooden pallets, wrapped in plastic wrap -- that is just really something. now we know that not all of these papers belong to the government. some of them could legitimately be trumps. maybe he wrote a lot of poetry while he was in office. i don't know. and yeah, the fbi has already reclaimed quite a bit of paper from trump's position possession. more than 11,000 government arguments -- more than 300 of which were classified -- dozens of which were marked a secret and more than a dozen of which were marked top secret. but still, just thinking about those pallets stacked high with boxes, which were presumably filled with papers -- and you really have to wonder, did the fbi get everything? 11,000 documents is a lot. but it is pretty clear that donald trump took a pretty staggering amount of paper with him when he left office. well, now we seem to have an answer to that question. today, nbc news confirmed the

new york times reporting that the fbi has reason to believe that president trump is still withholding even more government documents. they don't have them all. even after all this, the letters and the sworn statements in the subpoenas and the search warrants -- it seems, at least to the department of justice, that there are still government documents in donald trump's possession. and then a few hours ago, rolling stone came out with this bombshell reporting. federal investigators have asked multiple witnesses if they knew whether former president trump had stashed any highly sensitive government documents and either trump tower in manhattan or at his private club in bedminster new jersey. now nbc news has not yet independently confirmed that reporting. but rolling stone sources it to one person familiar with the matter and another person who has been briefed on the situation. so, possibly more papers, possibly at other locations. and now, it seems the department of justice has a very big decision to make. as the new york times put, it

mr. trump's apparent reluctance so far to cooperate puts the department in the froth position of having to decide from among an array of difficult choices, including whether to give up on trying to obtain the documents, issuing a subpoena for them, obtaining another search warrant or pushing for mr. trump to attest under oath that he has handed over all the materials in his possession. unfortunately, i am not to never have been a state or federal prosecutor. but at least to me, all these choices seem pretty tricky. what does the department of justice do here? luckily, we have just the expert to help us answer that very question. joining us now is barbara mcquade, former u.s. attorney for the eastern district of michigan and an msnbc legal analyst. barb, thanks for being here tonight. >> thanks for having me, alex. >> so, there i say, none of these options seem like the clear-cut winner, right? subpoena, search warrant, get trump to make a statement under

oath or just give up on the whole thing -- is one preferable in your mind? >> yeah. i think, alex, in human nature here, it would be to just let this go. my gosh, don trump fights like an animal over everything. who in their right mind would want to take on the circus that comes with any dispute without trump? comes withbut if you work for te government you have an obligation to serve the people in the country. and so to the extent they have a belief that donald trump still retain some of these government classified documents, they have an obligation to get them back. in some scenarios, you would do one of the options you just said there, which was to get the signed declaration from the person to a test that they have no more documents. and then most people would take that is a very serious and somber declaration. and they would know that if anything should turn up, later they would have some very serious legal consequences. i think with donald trump you can't believe him. i think it sounds like what it

that it makes sense that the justice department is doing, that it's probable cause to determine whether they can prove that some of these documents may be stored at either trump tower or bedminster, in which case they can just get a search warrant and go in and get them, which is what they did at mar-a-lago. that might be the path of least resistance here. but of course they need probable cause before they can do that. >> do you have a sense of how or why they think there are more documents at this juncture? do you read the tea leaves on this? and is this witness testimony? how would you think they have this information at this point? >> i think, alex, they have an inventory of what classified documents were created. when you have a printed document that is a classified document, usually that means there was a classified document that was created on a classified server. and so ordinarily, these are digital documents. and there may have been a print out that we shared with donald trump that he has a copy of. and so they know what is out there. and so if there is something

that is missing, they keep track of these things. it is not like they just spread them around without documenting who has what. and so it makes sense to me that they have a law, and they know what is still missing. also, they had all of those empty manila folders that they found out mar-a-lago that said that they had previously contained classified documents. so, my guess is, they have an inventory. they know what is missing. so, they are wondering where might be. so, it's asking witnesses whether they have knowledge that it might be stored at bedminster or trump tower, that could provide the probable cause necessary to obtain a search warrant and go in and get them. >> why did the doj tell trump's lawyers? is this part of the new new york times reporting -- that the top doj official told trump's lawyers he does not believe trump has returned all the sensitive documents. what is the necessity in terms of telling trump's legal team here? >> i think, they really just want them back. sometimes their strategy to be employed, gamesmanship because you are involved in litigation, you want to get the upper hand and win the case. here, i think the real truth is,

they just want these documents back. now maybe it will result and criminal charges for donald trump. these are the crown jewels of the intelligence community. and having these documents fall into the wrong hands can cause, by definition, exceptionally grave harm to the national security of the united states. so, they most desperately want to get these documents back. and so, no gamesmanship, just going straight to donald trump's lawyers and saying, does he have these documents? we very much want them back. >> do you think that this intersects at all with the whole special master process, in terms of what the doj can access or not access, pending that review? >> it might. it is difficult to know what is exactly going on. but i think one difficulty of the orders that judge cannon has issued is, she has said that she may conduct a national security assessment as to the damage that has occurred because of donald trump's retention of these documents. but they may not conduct a

criminal investigation unless it is absolutely necessary to that first part of the intelligence assessment. i think one worry i would have a five was a prosecutor handling this case is, that i would do something -- for example, show documents to a witness, or use them in a grand jury proceeding -- and then find out later that judge cannon or some other judge found that i had run afoul of her order by doing so. and as a result, it tainted the whole case. and all the way obtained a conviction against donald trump, it now must be thrown out. that is the worst-case scenario. so, my guess is, they are proceeding with great caution in terms of what they are showing to other witnesses. and so it is possible that they have to go this route to avoid running into problems later by being accused of violating the order that she has issued now. >> yeah, that complicates literally every step of the thoughts. the other part of, this barb, is we are talking about a

situation in which, feasibly, the fbi would have to conduct a raid on two of the presidents -- former presidents -- other residences, right? we know what trump has done politically with the raid on mar-a-lago. he used as a fundraising tool and as a political cudgel against the biden administration and the department of justice. the implications of the doj going after documents at bedminster and trump tower -- i mean, i would imagine that that is the very last thing merrick garland would want to have to do. >> i think that is right, alex. remember that merrick garland was selected for this position in an effort to restore the independents of the department of justice. and the public perception that it engages in partisan politics. so, the last thing he wants to do is be accused of raping donald trump's home or his golf club. trump's home or his gol and there is also a legal obstacle here, which is that it is not enough, to say, some of the documents are still missing, we have to go search those homes.

you have to show probable cause to believe that he has retained the documents and that they will be found at those particular locations, which probably explains why they are asking witnesses specifically about whether the documents are at those particular locations. so, they are going to do everything in their responsibility to find those documents. it is an unenviable task. but it explains why they're asking witnesses about these things and if they can gather enough evidence to establish probable cause, i think they will bite the bullet and go in, get a search warrant and get them. >> wow. merrick garland, a nation turns its lonely eyes to you. barbara mcquade, former u.s. attorney for the eastern district of michigan, thank you as always, barb for your wisdom on this friday evening. >> thanks very much,, alex. we >> have lots more to get to tonight. another day, another damning allegation of his proxy leveled against georgia gop senate candidates georgia herschel walker. their three new stories out in the last few hours with blockbuster details.

the reporter who broke one of those stories joins us next. and -- author and activist heather mcgee joins us to discuss a growing trend in gop politics, leaving those who call out structural racism the racists. stay with us. stay with us (vo) the older. the physically challenged. the last to be chosen. shelter dogs with special needs face

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tonight in the campaign of embattled georgia republican senate candidate ian herschel walker. first, we learned that herschel walker has fired his political director in the wake of -- that the resolutely antiabortion candidate had paid for the abortion of -- back in 2009. the removal of walker's political director, taylor crow, one month before the midterm elections, was the latest sign of a campaign that is desperately struggling to get back on track after a series of damaging revelations by the daily beast rock his campaign this week. as recently as wednesday, walk him self denied even knowing the identity of the woman who is accusing him of bang for an abortion. but we have new revelations tonight that make that stance increasingly hard to support. a short time ago, the daily beast published this headline -- herschel walker's wife reaches out to his accuser. the two women, the wife and the anonymous accuser, reportedly

communicated by text message today. quote, the woman asked blanchard -- that will be herschel washers wife -- if she had previously known about the abortion, or if she had known that herschel walker had also said it wasn't the right time to have a child when they conceived it three years later. instead of directly answering the question about the abortion, blanchard wrote that, this makes me incredibly sad, and claims she continually tried to bridge a better relationship between the estranged family members. okay, so, also tonight, the woman at the center of this week's revelation has spoken to the new york times, telling the paper that walker asked her to undergo not one but two abortions. here's the lead of that story. a woman who has said that herschel walker, the republican senate nominee in georgia, paid for her abortion in 2009 told the new york times that he urged her to terminate a second pregnancy two years later. it ended their relationship after she refused. in interviews with times, she described the frustration of watching republicans rally around walker, dismiss her

account and bathe him in prayer and praise, calling him a good man. the woman, whose identity is being withheld at by the times at a request, told the times he wants georgia voters to know what kind of man herschel walker was to her. as a father, he has done nothing. he does exactly what the courts say and that is it. he has to build be held responsible, just like the rest of us. and if you are going to run for office, you need to own your life. now while walker continues to deny reports of paying for an abortion, which nbc hasn't independently corroborated, his opponent, senator raphael warnock, has studiously avoided tagging his -- senator warnock was asked by reporters why he refuses to make political hay out of his opponents struggles. >> senator, most candidates in your position would use these latest allegations against your opponent, herschel walker, to their political advantage, as political ammunition. why haven't you done that? >> i think that the people of

georgia have an opportunity to look at his record and to look at mine. and be very clear -- there is a stark difference between the two of us. and the different's between my opponent and myself could not be more obvious. i think we have seen some disturbing things. we have seen a disturbing pattern. and it raises real questions about who is actually ready to represent the people of georgia in the united states senate. >> okay. and breaking just literally minutes ago, herschel walker has now acknowledged for the first time the identity of the woman who claims he paid for her abortion 13 years ago. but he is also claiming to nbc's mark caputo that today was the first time the woman ever mention to him -- to herschel walker -- that she had had an abortion. okay, so, herschel walker is

saying this is the first time he has heard about this abortion, he is confirmed the identity of the woman but he is saying he had no knowledge that she sought to terminate the pregnancy. joining us now is the author of the and initial new york times story, maya king. she is a politics reporter who covers the south for the paper and, oh what a time it is to be a reporter covering the walker campaign. maya king, thanks for joining us. >> thanks for having me. >> let me just get your reaction to our nbc reporting here. herschel walker is confirming that he knows this woman but is essentially saying, i had no idea that she ever had an abortion, undermining the story and potential evidence that the woman has presented thus far, and also in direct opposition to your reporting, which is that herschel walker asked the woman not only to get one abortion but to abortions. what is your reaction to these latest claims from herschel walker itself himself?

walker itself himself?>> he is s claims, even from monday, that he never knew this woman, that he never financed an abortion, this was not something he was totally aware of. and we have seen really, from monday, until just moments ago, the ways that the story has unraveled but also the ways that walker has begun to tell the truth of the situation. of course, all reporting documents provided to us at the new york times, in conversations with this woman, show that mr. walker was very aware of exactly what the circumstances were surrounding her decision to have an abortion, and factored it was a decision that both of the made together. this is obviously a very private matter between the two of them. it is not something you would normally see covering a campaign. but i want to underline the fact that what matters here is the hypocrisy and the situation, the fact that walker has said repeatedly that he is pro-life,

that he is against abortion, that he endorses an abortion ban with no exceptions, that he also has railed against what he says he's a trained of absentee fathers in the black households, and then reporting over several weeks, and just this week alone, shows, one, that he has indeed had an abortion -- or at least finance women's life to have an abortion -- and knew that he has not exactly been an active father in the life of at least one of his children -- >> i think what has been so surprising in all of this is the degree to which, for every one of these claims that this unnamed woman has made, she has literally had the receipts to back them up. and now we know, because of new reporting in the daily beast tonight, that there are text messages between julie walker, herschel walker's wife, and this woman. can you talk a little bit about that relationship? because she is alleging that herschel walker did not have much of a relationship with her

child. but it appears that there were some back and forth between herschel walker's wife and this woman that extended over the years. >> yeah. so, the woman has told us -- and we wrote in our story this evening -- that julie blanchard, herschel walker's current wife, it's really the person who has coordinated a lot of the payments, a lot of the communication between the woman's son, herschel walker's son, the son that they share, and with the family. and so julie has largely sort of been a go between here. i suppose what we can glean now from these text messages coming out is a sense, from folks in the campaign and also from walker and his family, that they would like to undercut the claims of this woman by saying, look, she has talked to us. and perhaps that they want to undercut her own credibility in this situation -- >> let me ask.

herschel walker is reaching out to nbc news. the unnamed woman had been speaking with the daily beast. did she approached the new york times? and if she did, why do you think she did? >> what i can say is that she was open to talking with the new york times. what she wanted to talk to us about, she wanted to corroborate the details of the daily beast story to say that, while folks in conservative circles are largely discrediting that report, saying the original report on monday was wrong, or that they were lying to vilify herschel walker unfairly, she wanted to talk to the new york times to say, look, i want to go to a paper that people believe is credible, to back up these claims and say that, while she wants her identity to remain anonymous or private for the protection of her young son, she still would like the story out there, on as big of a platform as possible, and wanted to tell that story with

our newspaper -- and >> for people who are not familiar with the vetting process at the new york times, when you are talking about allegations like these, could you give a sense of what it means to have these claims printed in the new york times? in terms of the sort of background checks, if you will, that you need to do on these kinds of allegations? >> absolutely. we cross checked her claims with court records. im withwe try to find as many documents as possible to further underline the claim that she was making, one of herschel walker's indeed fathering of her son, of her undergoing the abortion procedure, and of course of her identity. obviously, we kept her identity private. we wanted to make sure, though, that she is who she says she is and have gone to great lengths to ensure and verify that she is indeed not just any person, and that her identity is real, and that she is indeed the mother of herschel walker's child, that they did have a

relationship while she was living in atlanta -- we also spoke with people who knew her while she was living in atlanta. and we have reached out to the walker campaign multiple times and people in herschel walker's circles, people who he knew had worked with the campaign, even in her current capacity, or in the past, to ask them to respond to these claims. of course, saying, pointing out that on monday, that this report has already been made. really, what we are doing is underlining and corroborating report that already exists. the campaign did not respond to our requests. but indeed, they did reach out to nbc to confirm a lot of what we have reported and also push it further through text messages -- and, excuse, me in a interview with herschel himself. >> it bears mentioning that herschel walker's position on this has changed a lot over the course of this saga. at first it was, that didn't happen, i don't know her. then it was, there's nothing to be ashamed of. now it is, i know her, but i

did know about the abortion. the person who has all the facts and evidence on her side thus far is the woman that claims herschel walker paid for her abortion. maya king, politics reporter covering the south for the new york times. great reporting, maya king, that thanks for your time tonight. >> thank you. >> still ahead here tonight, a new chapter in the shameless republican political stunt involving vulnerable migrants. we have new reporting directly from the front lines. that's coming up next. stay with us. with us

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we are in a crisis situation. new york city now has more than 61,000 people in our shelter system. that includes thousands of new yorkers experiencing homelessness and thousands of asylum seekers who have been bussed in over the past few months from other parts of the country. this is a humanitarian crisis that started with violence and instability in south america. and it is being accelerated by american political dynamics. thousands of asylum seekers have been bussed into new york city and simply dropped off without notice, coordination or care. >> today, the mayor of new york city, eric adams, declared a

state of emergency. the cities homeless shelters are in crisis. the reason for this can be found in the state of texas, where the republican governor, greg abbott, has been engaging in a political stunt for several months now. he's been busing thousands of migrants and asylum seekers to democratic one cities, refusing to give them notice or to coordinate with city officials, and intentionally overwhelming the shelter system, all while endangering thousands of people who are really just looking for safety in america, using human beings as pawns to essentially own the libs. mayor adams said that so far, more than 70,000 migrants have arrived in new york city since april. and now he is desperate for help from state and federal governments. adams is not alone in this. a month ago, the democratic mayor of washington d.c., muriel bowser, she declared a public emergency for the same reason. governor abbott and arizona governor doug doocy, also a republican, they have been busting thousands of asylum seekers to that city, to create

chaos. even florida governor ron desantis has joined in on the game, flying about 50 migrants to martha's vineyard with no notice. for people who have watched all this from afar, it has become a national outrage. but despite that -- despite the strain on city systems -- and the legal challenges and the calls for federal investigations, and just a staggering cruelty of this whole thing, these republican political stunts are not slowing down. just yesterday, another bus carrying about 50 migrants from texas arrived outside of vice president kamala harris is d.c. residents. that's the second time in a month. in september, a bus carrying about 100 asylum seekers and migrants stopped outside of her house. today, we spoke to one of the man who is on one of those first buses in september. his name is alfredo. we are not reporting his full name for the sake of his privacy and security. but alfredo began his journey to the u.s. from venezuela months ago, walking by foot through eight different countries to reach the american

border in texas. >> can you first tell me why you left venezuela the? >> [interpreter] i worked with the government of venezuela, and a witness the government do things i don't think it had to do. and i denounced them. and that caused me problems. and i had to rush out of the country in fear of my life. the venezuelan government was going to take my life. [end of translation] >> alfredo says the pastor jungles with snakes and crocodiles. he said he saw the bodies of women with their children, and bodies with their elderly. the journey was so harrowing, he says, that if someone like broke they might not survive it. along the way, alfredo claims he was shot at in honduras, and robbed by police in mexico. by his estimation, he walked for 40 days. this is some of the footage from his journey. he got soars all over his legs and feet. as a diabetic, he had to inject himself with insulin, which he carried throughout his journey. there were moments, he told me, when he thought he would die. i asked alfredo about his

experience when he finally arrived in the u.s., at one of the detention centers in governor abbott's state of texas. >> what i [interpreter] don't like to talk about politics. but that man is a bad person, because he treats us that. he put us in a refrigerator, with -- take or documents and take everything from us. to me, he is a bad person. god forgive me. what i am saying is, i can't talk about politics, but that man, the position he has, he does not deserve. because you just not treat immigrants well. >> alfredo is soon swept up in governor abbott's political stunt. he's placed on a bus bound for vice president harris's residence. i do you know about why you were sent to the vice president's home? >> because the governor of texas does not like venezuelans. and he put them on buses. we were made to ride 40 hours without being able to use the restroom or without anything.

he doesn't want anyone to stay in texas. what he wants to get them out of the state and he sent us to washington d.c.. >> did someone tell you you would meet the vice president? what did you they tell you when you got on the bus? >> no, they never told me i was going to meet the vice president. but they brought me from texas to d.c., which was 40 hours of travel and i thought, and my friend -- but who met us was a charity group, and they took us there. >> alfredo dozens of men, women and children were dropped off outside the u.s. naval observatory hat on, announcing what they were there to greet them. they stood out there holding the few belongings they brought with him. after local charities and volunteers scramble to make last-minute arrangements, they ended up at the local church. eventually, those charities bought alfredo a ticket to new york city, where he thought he might be better off. when alfredo arrived at the port authority, and new york city three weeks ago, he was greeted by members of an aide who called tlc, a grassroots organization that has been receiving the asylum seeker and

helping them get set up. alfredo is now staying at one of the city run homeless shelters, where he has met other migrants like him, who fled to the country to escape violence and persecution. this twisted saga could end here. and it would be overwhelming. but in the last week, a new chapter has unfolded. alfredo says that he and other migrants staying at that shelter have been asked by an undisclosed third-party to help repair hurricane damage in the state of florida. governor ron desantis's state -- americans have a long history of migrants leading cleanup efforts after natural disasters. but it has not had a long history of migrants being used as political pawns by governors in states that later need the help of those very same political ponce. alfredo says many of his friends agreed to travel to florida after they were offered $15 an hour plus housing, and three meals a day, we've sounds a lot better than what they have got it gotten this far, which is basically nothing. but that as well might be a pretty big risk for these migrants. because they are paid off the books.

and historically, migrants have been victims of wage theft while working on recovery efforts. and alfredo, having been through this just extraordinary ordeal, aware of the degree to which his life has become part of a sikh political stunt -- he chose not to go down to florida. >> why didn't you go to florida? >> [interpreter] because in reality my destination was new york. i know they are working too, but me, i thought these might have been fake people that would put me to work and then possibly not pay me and exploit my work. that is what i thought. >> even in the best-case scenario here, the migrants are actually able to get paid for their work rebuilding the state of florida, there's still a potentially massive legal concern. many are awaiting immigration court dates here in new york that will determine when they can legally work in the u.s.. an off the books job could end in deportation. working in another part of the country might be missing that court date here in new york, which could also end deportation. >> so, now you are separated

from your family. and you are seeking asylum in the united states. your court date is in new york? >> [interpreter] yes, my court date is here. it's the 2nd of november at 11 am. >> november 2nd is soon. for your friends who went down to florida, do you know where they are court dates are? are they in new york as well? >> [interpreter] i don't know for sure if they have court dates. but yes, they should have them right here in new york. i think they are probably also afraid because we are here practically like we are under arrest. we have freedom but with conditions. i too am afraid that tomorrow or the next day, they want to deport or send me back to my country. and then they take my life. what i don't want to do is go back to venezuela, because i'm certain they could execute me. [end of translation] >> we risking your life to come to the united states, only to be used in a political game by republican governor. and then risking it all again to help rebuild a state run by

another governor who is all too keen to de humanize you as well. that is what is happening with these asylum seekers, the one crossing the border. that's what they have to tell their families about when they ask what life is like here in the united states. have you talked to your wife? have you told her what you have been through? and how does she feel about where you are? >> [interpreter] yes, i speak to my wife every day. and in reality, it was a tough experience i tell her not across. but she wants to come here. and i want my family to be here with me too. so, she's going to make the same journey i made. and hopefully, she comes soon. but she will make the same journey as me. and i feel bad because she will come alone and with my two daughters, and it will be tough for her. >> we will be right back. ll be right back

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white lives matters on the shirt is because they do, it's the obvious thing. >> yeah. why do you think that is so, i assume the implication of course of all lives matter, their lives, god created them. why do you think that would be considered controversial? >> because the same people that

stripped of our identity and labeled us as a caller have told us what it means to be black. >> that was kanye west on fox news last night explaining the inexplicable reason why he wore weight live matters shirt during paris fashion week. kanye stand highlights of moving to address structural racism and inequality, black lives matter, islam how seen by conservatives as detrimental to the rest of society. it excludes, demean, this enfranchise is people who are not black, namely white people. and nobody is happier to see kanye west in a white lives matter shirt and tucker carlson, whose home network, fox news appears to believe black lives matter is a racist organization. that belief does not end with kanye west and his t-shirts, it rests at the core of some very significant news this week. the idea that addressing structural inequality and racism is racist against white people. on tuesday, a conservative law firm and milwaukee, wisconsin

filed a lawsuit to overturn president biden's plan to cancel the $20,000 and student loan debt for millions of dollars. the suit argues that because the white house said the plans intends to help black people, -- it has quote, improper racial motive. they say by creative creating an implanting a program of the proper racial motive, the offending's violating -- equal protection protection of the law, which among other things, prohibits federal spending based on race. in other words, the federal government can't assist students and borrowers of color because white lives matter. that lawsuit was dismissed a few days later, the law firm announced its plan to appeal. and then there with what happened at the supreme court this week when alabama solicitor general argue the state could not possibly prioritize race and the creation of its crew -- congressional district maps, the considering race can hurt white voters. in other words, strike that part of the voters because

white last matters. essential ideas here is that zero-sum politics. i have just the person to talk to about this. her name is heather mcgee, the book is called the sum of, us what how racism costs are a -- i saw a thought of you as i saw the week unfold. tell me in your view, based on the brilliant book that you had written, how and why the 14th amendment is being used to sort of strike down measures like the student loan cancellation that are intended to help historically disenfranchise groups of people? >> there is a huge amount of political, and therefore economic profit to be made by convincing white voters that anything that is good for other americans, even and including them, is somehow a threat, right? the idea, the zero-sum idea that we can't all progress together. in fact, progressing people of color is a threat and white people. take the student loan for

example, who benefit from a historic, up to $20,000 through loan debt being canceled? well 20 million borrowers, the vast majority of whom are working in middle class people, the majority of whom are white. does attack the racial wealth disparity? yes. why? not because black people are lazy that we borrow a lot, but because a racial wealth divide that was created by public policy. the racial wealth divide that means today a black college graduate has less wealth on average than a high school dropout. the bottom line is, these policies, the idea of having a voting rates in the country where politicians don't pick their voters, but voters pick their politician, the idea of having affordable college, it is good for everybody. and yet conservatives want to break a working class multi racial coalition to make weight voter side with a color rather the class. they want to profit economically from the rigged political system, and so they

keep sort of hammering this point, this lie of the zero-sum. that we can't all be beneficiaries of government in the public interest. >> you see that, again at the supreme court, we talk about the voters rights act. the idea having a prosperous american dot mobocracy, the right to vote, you can disenfranchise everyone, has become some kind of subconscious call to just enfranchised black voters, right? you saw this player in the 2020 election. mail-in voting, also helps republicans. >> absolutely. >> yet, the process of enfranchising people to vote has become a partisan issue for republicans. how do we unwind that? what is the argument that is to be made? the data is clearly not convincing the gop and conservatives. >> it's really about rural power. i think what we do is we make crossed rachel movement. i spent the last six months go around the country, telling stories for a podcast called the some of us about people who

break that, they come together across lines of race. in florida, an issue that has been born in jim crow, the lifetime ban have -- got a multi racial bipartisan 60 plus percent majority at the ballot saying we don't want that vestige of jim crow. we can people who served their time should be able to vote, this old piece of jim crow is holding back citizens all over florida from being able to vote. and so, it is possible, there is still in the country, support for these ideas. student loan cancellation, voting rights, the idea of being able to have nice things for everyone, right? and yet, that is why the right wing is so focused on this one element of the culture war to try to basically terrify white voters into thinking anything good that the biden administration does is going to harm them. >> the biden administration did make a major move on marijuana, they pardoned all offenses of

marijuana, they got some bipartisan, at least republicans were not vilifying that the way they have student debt. there is hope here. >> there is hope. that has a lot to do with the koch brothers have been pushing for this decriminalization, that is a good thing. listen, there is a lot of places in this country where black and white voters see eye to eye. that is fundamentally terrifying to the republican party. >> it is not terrifying to me, you can hear more about it from your fantastic podcast. heather mcghee. how we can prosper together, thank you for making time to join as i listened to the absurd kanye west interview. coming up, at a debate tonight in the republican senate race in north carolina, a republican candidate gave a interesting answer when asked to defend his 2020 vote to overturn the election. what he said is coming up next. election what he said is coming up next

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nominees at the ballot for the house senate and statewide offices are election deniers. i'm sure you know that by now as a concept, but here is how that looks in practice. this is republican senate nominee ted budd out a north carolina debate tonight. >> do you stand by a vote not to certify the 2020 electoral college vote from now president biden? the core of the vote, the core of that vote, tim, was to inspire more debate. sadly, that debate is healthy for democracy. is that what a lead to, do not have the votes to overturn it. of course, having the debate is a healthy thing. i do stand by that vote. >> denying the democratic outcome of an election is healthy for democracy. it is? i don't think so. great, now that guy, republican ted budd is pulling one point of head of his democratic competitor, cheri beasley. every vote matters.

that does it for us. rachel will be here on monday. i will see you on tuesday. if you are looking for something to do, this weekend, you can see another project i was working on which is very very different than this one. i'm hosting a little project over on our friends on netflix it's called the mole, the first episode's drop today. that's all i got. now it's time for the last word for it low and's -- good evening, lawrence. so >> we have mandela barnes, fresh off an hour ago, his debate with republican senator ron johnson, there is some amazing exchanges and there. we will have the video of that. he will join us with his own postgame analysis of his own debate. >> every senate race in this country is the most important senate rate of this country. and mandela barnes is a fascinating candidate. that's great, lawrence. >> thank you, alex. ate. >> we have breaking news tonight on top of breaking news about herschel walker, the new