thanks for watching the katie phang show. velshi starts right now. >> today on velshi, key russian supply routes and a putin's illegal land grabbing, it is up in flames tonight. plus, several polite requests, a subpoena, and then fbi raid may still not have been enough to get back all the documents of donald trump that were properly removed for the white house. why the justice department thinks he still has hands on the documents that still do not belong to him and that he should not have. all of this as several extremists are charged with planning and leaving the

capital insurrection. they stand trial for suggestions conspiracy. they are all complaining that they were simply awaiting orders from donald trump. she was once republican royalty but now, this woman, liz cheney, she says she is prepared to break a 40 year republican voting street to keep election denying, big lying members of her own party out of power. what is behind her choice to keep such a lonely world? who is backing her on that journey. you are not going to believe this week's selection for that banned book club. it has never even been banned. girls who code is a series written for middle schoolers. it is a babysitters club but with computer science. there is not a single thing that is remotely controversial about these books but the book banners came for them. we will talk about why the book banners are threatened by girls getting into science and more. velshi begins now.

good morning to you, i am ali velshi. into saturday october the 8th. it is day 227 of russia's war in ukraine. we begin today 4450 miles away from kyiv. that is the ukrainian capital which vladimir putin thought his army could capture in three days. let's start at a tiny village of gamble. it isn't america. it is on the northwestern tip of the st. lawrence island in alaska. it is very far from the fighting in ukraine. it is actually only about 40 miles percy today peninsula. it is also about 300 miles by sea to the russian city of effect not. that germany, it was one that two russian soldiers talk to escape conscription into the -- they are in custody while their

asylum plane is being processed this may be by way of alaska and more than half 1 million russian men have fled russia, via finland, russia, kazakhstan, and make none goliad. for several hundred others who have been drafted and sent to belies ancient camps. it is said to be chaotic. there are shortages of military training, and ukraine forces say they are already countering these new troops on the battlefield. fewer than two and a half weeks after putin's mobilization proclamation came down. remember, the reasons that they need this massive mobilization is because the war continues to go very badly. with extreme losses above man, and ukraine claims more than 60,000 casualties. and of equipment. in fact, versus the common issues are so severe that they are now tanks that were first

assigned for the soviet army in 1961 and that went out of production in the u.s. srfs in 1975. by the way, this did remain in production in north korea where they have deemed them too old to use. while we are on the topic of north korea russia has become so depleted of ammunition that it is now buying it from pyongyang. it has proven so inefficient in the skies that russia is now buying and deploying iranian shot he'd drones which are kamikaze for owns. they go in and destroy themselves by attacking a target. that is the strategy which the washington based think tank says is unlikely to significantly affect the course of the war. instead, it fits into a larger pattern of russian forces expanding high precision technology on areas that hold

limited operational significance. they are simply meant to invoke terror. and now, a new issue for russia as an explosion has crippled the bridge. take a look at this. a collapse part of the bridge into the sea as russian state media says a truck bomb expanded that set fire to several oil tankers that were traveling on the bridge by rail. you can see them all burning in a row there. why is this bridge important? because it is the only bridge connecting mainland russia and crimea. this was a pet project of vladimir putin's and was built after russia's illegal annexation of crimea in 2014. north of crimea on the bottom of your map, on the bottom, near the battlefront, ukraine continues to regain its lands in the north east and east. this week, they recaptured about 2000 square kilometers in the south near the city of kherson. you can see that just north of

crimea. kherson is a major city under russian control since early in the war. along with the reclamation of towns now comes number to discovery of russian corps. ukrainian officials have found the bodies of 534 civilians and recaptured territory in the east. this includes 226 women and 19 children. money of them are showing signs of torture. ukrainian officials have also discovered 22 locations and recaptured towns across hurricane. that is in northeastern ukraine on the eastern border. they said that they were used as -- ropes, gas masks, sex toys, and severe beatings with sticks and other objects. make no mistake. the ukrainian battlefield gains come on ukrainian soil. but, it is also in territory that putin says is now a part of russia. the recent russian losses in the surrounding areas are

coupled with unpopular mobilization's abortions for fighting and ukraine. it is generating criticism within russia aimed at the kremlin. it is more public, and more intense than any other time during the war. remember, criticism of this is illegal. calling it a war in russia is illegal. it is a special military operation. the criticism is coming from a wide array of places including kremlin propaganda. this is online, on radio, and it is also coming from influential military figures including the founder of the mercenary group. a force fighting for russia and ukraine. it also comes from the leader of chechnya. in an extraordinarily harsh rebuke of russia's military leadership, and has been any crane fighting, he was heavily criticizing valerie who is the chief of russia's general staff and the third most powerful man in the russian military. he said that another top russian general should be sent

to the front lines so his blood can wash away his sins. also, he said that in the face of i'm going to feet putin should consider using a tactical nuclear weapon and ukraine and that deranged advice came less than a week after putin alluded to the use of nuclear weapons. this is during his recent angry street where he also proclaimed parts of ukraine to be parts of russia. you saw the united states set the precedent for using nuclear weapons back in 1945. he would use, quote, all means necessary to defend land that he claims as russian. this, of course, is a ridiculous comparison for a multitude of reasons. including, the 1945 atomic bombs were used, for better or for worse, two end a war. russia would be using them in an invasion of conquest, on a country that putin claims is rightfully part of russia. meaning, he would be using

nuclear weapons on people and land that he says he believes are russian. still, the nuclear threat is apparently so high that during a private fund-raiser president joe biden told donors, on thursday night, but the world's, right now, the closest to nuclear armageddon then at any point since the 1962 cuban missile crisis. biden added, he knows putin, quote, fairly well and he is not joking when he talks about potential use of tactical nuclear weapons or biological weapons, or chemical weapons. because, his military is, as you might say, significantly underperforming. joining me now is the former cia director. he is an nbc news senior national security and intelligence analyst for the new york times, and bestselling author of an important and very relevant book right now. it is called undaunted. my fight against americas enemies at home and abroad. it has a brand-new epilogue for the paperback release. director brennan, good to see

you. vladimir putin has been talking about nuclear weapons. joe biden responded on thursday night with some very serious talk about it. what is your evaluation of both the likelihood and what you know and can tell us to be intelligent about? >> as you pointed out, the russian forces in ukraine have suffered major setbacks over the last several months. that is good news as far as the ukrainian forces being able to go on the offensive. however, there are worrisome applications as a result of that as putin gets more and more pushed into a corner. this has been a debacle for him. by putin as an existential threat that is why the concern is that he might opt for some reckless decisions. it will include the potential

use of tactical nuclear weapons on that. it really does not have a good military reason to do that. however, i think he is being pushed by those who are on his right, and as you pointed, out have chechnya leaders, and others, to be much more aggressive in this military effort inside of ukraine. i think what president biden was mentioning it in terms of the concerns he has is that -- really raises the suspect shun of some very rapid escalation. it could include some type of cognition between nato and russia. that is why i think he is saying that we cannot be dismissive of these threats that are coming out of russia. they suggest that they will use whatever means they have at their disposal to achieve victory in ukraine.

again, this is a very, very important time as the ukrainians continue to push back against russia in a very, very effective fashion. >> many of us have watched movies about the, certainly in the older days when this seems like more of a reality. tell me how it would play out. first of all, russia has 11 or 1200 of these nuclear weapons. some of them are really big and dangerous. some of them are smaller. in the movies russia launches a nuclear weapon, possibly on an american target, it is relatively slow and i do not necessarily have an attack on this. >> i will leave it to the biden administration to determine how they will best respond. it has not been said publicly, but it would be catastrophic. i do think there would be a combination of actions that the

united states and the allies will take. not only on the sanctions front but there are additional that can be levied against russia. i do think that there would be some type of military response. what that might involve is unclear. i do not believe that we will respond with nuclear strikes against russia, but i do think we will make a very clear sideshow to the russians that this tactical thought for the russians -- depending on where it is, and how many of them are used, i think, right now, the national security council is looking at those options so that they are well repaired. i do think that it is still unlikely, at this point, that putin will opt for that. but, you cannot dismiss the potential that it could happen. >> people like you, the former director of the cia, the current director of the cia,

you have to evaluate russia's capabilities which from a nuclear perspective we understand better than even the normal military capabilities. this is because of trainees and counts of these things that we have. what becomes very, very hard to evaluate's intent. what vladimir putin is thinking, right now, how cornered he feels, what he might do. one of the difficulties of countries that have nuclear weapons that the use as a deterrent is once you have used it changes the whole calculus. what do we need to think about, vladimir putin's thinking, to understand what he might do here? >> i think that his fortune has continued to decline. i think that he is going to be seeing this increasingly as a threat to his very political survival. that is why he needs to think about how he is going to reverse the trajectory of this conflict. he does not have a lot of good options available to him. as you pointed out, the russian

military has seriously under performed. i do not think he has any confidence that, conventionally, he will be able to turn the tide. he has this partial mobilization. i don't think it will have much of an effect on the battlefield. i do think that he tends to listen to his right wing. he does not want to be perceived as weak. as anti war demonstrations, and protests, and criticisms grow in russia, i do think he is going to swing towards his right wing support to make sure that he is continuing to have the support which might push him into this direction to include the possible use of, again, nuclear weapons inside of ukraine that, again, what makes his situation worse it would not help it. all he would become a total international pariah it would you believe the tallies of indians who have been willing to look the other way if ukraine to condemn such use. >> an important part, india

buys a lot of that oil that no one else is buying from russia. that is a major source of their funding for continuing this battle in ukraine. india would as a nuclear armed country have to think twice about supporting that sort of action. john, thank you for being here, at the former cia director and nbc news senior national security and intelligence analyst. john brennan, thank you. still to come, the trump talking drama that the former president is believed to still have more documents squirrels away. we are going to dive into what they may be in the threat that they pose to america's national security. plus, a group of weakening when opec's october surprise tums. what it means for the safety of the free world. so you can enjoy more of...this. this is the planning effect. this is a bombas performance sock. for such a small item it performs big in so many ways.

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so let's go. on wednesday, a coalition of the digital age is waiting. oil producing's masons, nearly russian and south of saudi arabia, announced it will slash output by $2 million a day. this marks a significant

decrease in the amount of oil that will be available on the global market. roughly equivalent to about 2% of global oil demands. why does that matter to you? oil is priced globally. higher ice prices mean higher gas prices. it will likely drive prices back up after nearly 100 days of gas price declines in america. moreover, it could mean higher inflation for a longer period of time. it is not just bad for u.s. citizens. most of the world is battling energy costs. winter is approaching. there is one major winner. the kremlin. russia relies heavily on revenue from oil and natural gas exports. even now. limiting oil production will increase the price per barrel. it will set moscow up with more cast to help finance its continued invasion of ukraine. president biden called the opec to playstation disappointing and shortsighted. it is hard not to describe it using harsher adjectives. although saudi arabia maintains that the oil cut has nothing to

do with the current biden administration. it is hard not to think of it as a direct rebuke against president biden, himself. >> remember, just three months ago the president flew to saudi arabia for a sit-down conversation with the saudi crown prince, mohammed bin salaam. it was the most fraught political trip of biden's presidency as many americans, including yours truly, condemned him for breaking bad with a man who is responsible for murdering an american journalist and so many other human rights violations. the white house deemed a calculated alliance with saudi arabia too important to leave in limbo. oil production, in the face of a global shortage that is hurting americans through inflation, two crucial to leave on the table. the trip went on as planned. thinking back to july it was actually a pretty busy time for saudi arabia. a few weeks after biden left they dealt with another american president, a former one. this time, it was not on state business. it was far from it. saudi arabia funded a golf tournament at one of trump's

beloved courses in new jersey. many americans, including the families of 9/11 victims, condemned the former president for accepting what they called blood money to pay for golf. including the 9/11 victims families who were asked about it. the former president said this, curiously, quote, no one has gotten to the bottom of 9/11 unfortunately. no one has gotten to the bottom of 9/11 unfortunately. that is simply not true. 15 of the 19 hijackers were saudi citizens. osama bin laden was born in saudi arabia. saudi arabia denies any involvement in the attack that killed 3000 americans dozens of city blocks from where a sick right now. i digress. back in washington the white house says it will consult with congress on measures to undercut the golf nation's grip on international energy markets. the one tool that has been floated's legislation dubbed the no oil producing and exporting cartel act.

it is creatively going to empower the u.s. department of justice to file antitrust. opec is 13 countries, it is mostly saudi arabia. they are the biggest in. they're russia is the biggest in the plus suction. opec plus would allow them to be sued for attempting to control oil production and effect crude pricing. the bill would still need to pass in the full house and senate. other ideas are also on the table. make no mistake about it. the person who has the most to lose is in fact joe biden and democrats face a fierce election season. prices at the pump will go with personal finances of mind. everyone knows that to be true. president trump, the republicans, saudi arabia, even russia. joining me now is sean casten. before entering the public sector he was a ceo of the -- it converts plans into energy.

thank you so much for being with us. i first want to get your take on the possible political implications of opec plus. being politically influenced by saudi arabia. at the plus side being influenced by russia. having a deliberate interest in democrats and, ultimately, donald trump. and ultimately joe biden suffering because of higher oil prices. thanks for having me. >> it is very tempting, especially when we are 30 days before an election, to talk about gas prices, politically. i think we are certainly keenly aware of that. i do not want us to lose sight of what is happening here. by cutting the production of oil we have seen the price of oil go up $10 a barrel. that means russia has more money to kill ukrainians. that means europeans going into winter, you know, you look at the election in the uk were some two thirds of british households are saying they are not sure they will be able to pay their heating bills. that made my life much harder

for europeans. it is an assault on democracies around the world. it is an assault on energy consumers around the world and if we see this only through the lens of politics we are feeling as human beings. this is a question, at core, of who do we think are more important? energy consumers or producers? if that question is political than we have to have a conversation about our politics. >> let's talk about what it does. what does the legislation do? it allows us in america to think about a cartel. they've been around since 1960. what does america do about this? it is not a member of, opec. oil prices are international. when these prices go up americans paid for it at the gas pump. what does legislation in america do? this legislation which, i have personally not been a part of, but essentially, would recognize that we have tools to address people, the legislation

that i have introduced with congressman wildes is actually a direct copy of legislation that was introduced by senator cassidy, a republican in new zealand, two years ago. it says we should take our military assistance away from saudi arabia as long as they are not acting like one of our allies. it is important to remember that two and a half years ago that legislation was construed ousts in order to prop up the profits of the oil companies. donald trump threatened to take military aid away from the saudis because he was concerned about the loss of revenue to the struggling oil companies. i remember you shedding a tear over that loss as well. the saudis did it. on april 1st, 2020, you can go back and the price of oil spiked by 22%. that was because we threatened to pull out troops and this is really a question of what are we trying to do with these congressman. it is to say let's call the question. if we thought, as a country,

that it was so important to protect the profits of oil producers, two years ago, do we think it is equally important to protect energy consumers today? >> you made an interesting point. you are talking about pulling u.s. troops and missile defense systems out of saudi arabia and i was talking to nick kristoff the other night who said we have to re-evaluate this relationship with saudi arabia. we think that the narrative is that we really need saudi arabia because of their oil production. saudi arabia needs america a lot more than america needs saudi arabia. >> they certainly depend on our military. you know, the u.s., for better or, worse has become an exporter of oil. we do not set the market price. you know, there are a low cost producers and the saudis do that. this is also a huge spike in oil prices that are really good for u.s. oil producers. but, last time i checked, there were more oil consumers in the u.s. than can producers. we have the ability to be self sufficient. we would have an even greater ability if we really double

down on energy efficiency and conservation. on renewables, we have a long term strategy we can use. frankly, i have a hard time not seeing what opec has done as a direct response to what we have done in this congress to give people access to cleaner, and cheaper energy. because, nothing scares the oil company like a bunch of people with solar panels and electric vehicles. >> you are right about that. i want to have you back to have that specific conversation about the fact that it is actually the best weapon against anyone who does not see that way. thank you for being with us this morning. sean casten of illinois, joining me now is chris miller. he is an associate professor at tuft school of global affairs. he is the arthur of numerous bucks. the fight for the world's most critical technology. it is a bigger contributor to inflation, today, than oil prices are. i will get to that puck in just

a second. first, chris, you are an energy expert. i want to get your take on this opec tuck and what you think is behind it and what should be done about it. >> it is certainly the case that the saudis are trying to signal. it is a desire to have higher oil prices and displeasure with the new regulations that are coming into force that will impose a price cap on russian oil. the saudis realize that if the u.s. and europe were able to get a price cap for russian oil they can also, quite possibly, to aid in the future for any other oil producer. that made the saudis want to single their market power and drive up prices. they are a key player in the discussion about international oil price settings. the challenge to the biden administration is that they are trying to keep oil prices down to starve rush of revenue and to keep a cap on gas prices. intensifying with the saudis in the short term might have the opposite effect of driving prices even higher. >> i want to ask you about your

new book in which you say, quote, the semiconductors are the new oil. it would be hard for my viewers, this morning, to think that to be true. if you look at inflation over the last two and a half leaders, particularly in the last, year semiconductors have more to do that with an oil does. the reason you cannot buy a used car without paying for it is because of semiconductors. the reason you cannot buy a new cars because of semiconductors. the reason phones and computers are more important is because of semiconductors. talk to me but the thing and why we have so much trouble with that in the united states. why are we only manufacturing microchips in the united states and what is the administration doing about it? that is absolutely >> right like, oil production has been concentrated, even more. so saudi arabia produces about ten or 15% of the world's oil supply. taiwan produces 90% of the most advanced chips. there are critical points in the pro producing of

semiconductors. some of those points are just off shore of china. and in some of the world's most geopolitical hotspots. there is a risk that hangs over the supply chain that could peril our access to everything we would land to smartphones, two microwaves, to dishwashers. it is a real risk for the global economy and nbc u.s., china, says there is not a small chance that it could impact from a country doctor fusion for their. >> when you talk about things that need to be manufactured it does not sound like a difficult thing. especially for america. it is a major manufacturing company. what is complicated about making semiconductors? >> when advanced chips like the one you find in a new iphone will have ten billion components on them, each one of those is smaller than a coronavirus. this is the most complicated manufacturing process in history. there has been a race or war between a small number of companies that are on the trip

or. they describe this battle to produce smaller and smaller components and cram more computing power on two chips. right now the company that is better than any at manufacturing precise chips is based in taiwan. taiwan semi conducting manufacturing company, most people have never heard of. that you rely on their products for your smartphone, your pc, and for the data centers that we use. we simply cannot rely on things without them. we depend on them for everything we consume. >> good to see you, one interesting but you have heard. and thank you for being with us. particularly useful because we actually have a book to talk about this. and then, opec plus, but while cut happens. great to get your expertise on both of these things. chris mueller is an associate professor of international history at the fletcher school at tufts university. he is the author. i have to tell you, we have important books on the show, but this one is really going to matter to you to understand. it is the fight for the world's most critical technology. if you are worried about inflation, understand

microprocessors and why semiconductors makes such trouble for us. all, right 18 months, multiple requests from the national archives. a federal subpoena, an fbi search, and yet the former president may still have white house documents in his possession. according to the department of justice. >> discomfort, back there discomfort, back ther preparation h. get comfortable with it. ♪i like to vöost it, vöost it♪ ♪my vitamins can boost it♪ ♪i like to vöost it, vöost it♪ ♪we like to vöost it♪ vöost effizzing, amazing vitamin boosts. ♪vöost it♪

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that the justice department has an ongoing criminal investigation and improper handling of government records. it has been two months since fbi executed a search of mar-a-lago's palm beach resident in mar-a-lago. they discovered more than 11,000 materials that properly belong to the american government including hundreds of pages of highly classified information. but, after multiple requests from the national archives of federal subpoena and an fbi search of the florida state, the department of justice believes that trump still has documents in his possession. nbc news has confirmed reports of the doj believes trump has not returned all the documents that he took. this is after leaving office. the doj's top intelligence -- communicated these concerns to trump's lawyers. it is unclear if the justice department has new evidence that has led to this conclusion. trump's camp has given the government plenty of reasons to remain suspicious in this case. national archives and justice department have already spent more than 18 months trying to retrieve all of the missing

materials from the trump administration. on top of that, among the records were covered at mar-a-lago were 48 folders with classified markings that were empty inside. this raises further questions about how these sensitive documents were handled and what happened to them. joining me now is barbara mcquade. a co-host of the sisters in law podcast and legal analyst. good morning barbara, thank you for being with us this morning. there are a lot of views about how to think about these documents. one is that it is benign, donald trump just mishandled this with classified documents, but the important one is that classified documents or classified for a reason and they are handles a certain way for a reason. and then they show up at mar-a-lago, which is not a skip, it is not a secure facility. there are lots of ways into mar-a-lago. there are lots of ways to pay a staffer or caterer or member to get their hands on documents. this is what makes it really

important that these documents should not have been in donald trump's possession. and then more documents may still be in his possession. >> classified documents are not just some bureaucratic stamp. it means that an intelligence agency compiled certain information that was so sensitive that it had to be handled in a certain way. the definition of classified documents is at the top secret level it is information that discloses exceptional damage to the national security of the united states. it might be sources of information overseas. a russian operative could be sharing information with us and their life might be at risk and their information might be compromised if this were disclosed. it might be a technical method of collection. we have methods unknown to the rest of the world that are allowing us to capture telecommunications transmissions, for example. or, for special program of these are things that are certainly by people in the highest levels of government. things about, for example,

nuclear capabilities of foreign governments, our own, or allies that are unknown to the rest of the world. these kinds of things are kept secret because they are our playbook. if they get shared with operatives from other parts of the world, you know, like we saw at mar-a-lago, chinese agents are snooping around and grabbing things, it could be devastating to our country and national defense capabilities. that is why the government is so eager to get these de got documents back as quickly as possible. >> we do not know if any of that has happened. maybe it has, maybe it has not. if it has happened, if there have been compromises of human intelligence or signals intelligence, you and i would not be privy to that information. of all the investigations into donald trump this one seems to be taken very seriously. it was legal counsel apparently paid them $3 million. apparently that is gone. he is having trouble finding representation. why is he more worried about this and he seems to be about the other things that he is embroiled in? >> this one seems to be one that is really difficult to get out from under because he is

caught red-handed. in so many of these other cases proof of a crime requires knowledge and intent. i think donald trump is savvy enough not to use email and it could be very difficult to prove that level of knowledge. with regard to these documents having them get few about 90% of the way they're. the other piece of it is showing that he knew they were there. i think his own admissions have demonstrated that he didn't know they were there and there are statements about the declassification of them, the fbi planting them, and i think has knowledge that he has is there. i think the likelihood of being able to prove that he is guilty is very high. the penalties for this, one of the charges is obstruction of justice and it is 20 years in prison. the consequences are very high here. it is very easy to get your arms around as the proof is very simple. he had these documents and will

fully retain them and that is illegal and i think for good reason he is very concerned about being charged and convicted of a crime here. >> robert, good to see you as always. barbara mcquade is a former attorney in michigan. she is a nbc host. she is a part of the sisters in law podcast. election, deniers liz cheney, a rock-solid lifelong republican is urging voters to consider using voting for democrats. we will talk about it on the other side. her side ever notice how stiff clothes can feel rough on your skin?

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we were blown away. (chuckles) legacy is really, really big at howard university so it's really a special moment to know that i had a family member who over a hundred years prior have walk these grounds. with the sheer number of election deniers participating in the elections this november it would be an act of god if we made it out of the midterms with none of them elected to office. according to the washington post 299 republican candidates for house senate in key state races have questioned or denied the outcome of the 2020

presidential election. in fact, it's not so bad that liz cheney, a lifelong conservative, is urging arizona voters to reject certain republican candidates who are running in that state. >> for years now i have been voting republican. i do not know that i have ever voted for a democrat. if i lived in arizona now, i would absolutely. for governor, and for secretary of state, and i think that we cannot be in a position where we elect people who will not fundamentally uphold the sanctity of elections. >> ten years ago, even five years ago, if i told you that someone with the last name cheney was considering voting for a democrat you would laugh in my face and call me a liar. until recently, liz cheney was a republican republican. she is not a rhino in name only. she is a republican in name. her literal name is literally a

conservative institution. she has the voting record. the pedigree. she has the values to show for. cheney was a vocal supporter of the iraq war which her father helped craft during her vice presidency. she's a staunch opponent of abortion rights. she did that a bipartisan bill on gun safety in june. she has opposed a path to citizenship for dreamers and worked towards the goal of repealing obamacare. in 2013 she expressed her opposition to same sex marriage. one year earlier her own sister got married to a woman. she has since said she was wrong for opposing same-sex marriage. however, liz cheney voted with donald trump, 93% of the time, according to this. this is a dream resume for republican values. for better or for worse she is a conservative. she is as conservative as they come. all it took was one former reality tv star and fake billionaire to make her question what her party stands for. this year it appears he chose

democracy over party loyalty. because, the party she called her own for so many years was no longer loyal to the constitution but rather bluntly well to a leader who plays by his own set of rule. her work on the january six committee has made her a pariah in her own party. it cost her her own seat in the united states congress. she is not exactly a darling of the democratic party. congressman jamie raskin who works closely with cheney on the january six investigation told politico, quote, i told her i could not start to disagree with her in public. let's cheney has been a great constitutional patriot during this period but we have a lot of things we disagree on. and that is okay. those two things can be true at the same time. you can disagree with liz cheney or any other republican on politics. many of you do and we'll. and that is for good reason. but, her bravery and defying the former president and

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candidates. rejecting the maga gop and choosing country over party. one of those is joe walsh. now, you see joe on the show a lot. let me remind you of who he is and was he was a tea party conservative and with a strong supporter of then candidate donald trump through his first presidential campaign. in office this did not reflect the republican party as well snow. it in 2019 he announced that he would be running against trump saying he believed trump to be erratic, incompetence, and unfit for office. almost immediately he lost his national radio show. just last year his other radio show was canceled on a conservative network where he says he was the only anti trump focus on the air. now, this, like liz cheney, still makes him a conservative. like liz cheney, he is no longer complaining to be part of the republican party. he says it is a full fledged cult that embraces -- he is a former illinois representative, a host of the

podcast, and author of f silence. calling for the trump out call out -- you talked to people who fundamentally do not share your views on certain conservative values. you talk to people on the other side of your views. it is what you and i have done for many years and we are sitting down and talking about normal politics, and we would not agree on a lot of things. we agree on the concept of pluralism. we agree on the concept of debate. and we agree on the contest of democracy. that is all that liz cheney is doing, right now. that is all she is talking about and she is not saying she is a liberal. she is not saying i share any views with democrats except those. >> ali, i welcome liz cheney to the pro democracy resistance. i joined two and a half years ago when i ended my crazy primary challenge against trump. i came out and publicly said, i will support whoever the democratic nominee is. joe biden, pete fuji, bernie

sanders, it did not matter to me. policy differences do not matter, right now. i believe in my head, and in my heart, that my former political party is in an existential threat to a democracy. if you believe that, as i do, you have no choice, right now, but to support democrats. democrats are the only game in town, right now, to defeat the republican party. i have to make one other point as i am glad that liz cheney is there and she is opposing crazies like carey lake. let's be real as there are no normal republicans, right now. you are either a crazy election denier or you are an enabler of a crazy election denier. >> you sent out a tweet as there are some that are more than others. in other, words everyone is on a continuum here. he tweeted out, welcome to the club list cheney. help former republicans defend democracy by not just defeating

keri lake by j.d. vance, doug mastriano, ron johnson, herschel walker, blake masters, ron desantis, it's segura, et cetera. right now, liz, the entire party is a threat. they all must be defeated. joe, you run into people, as do i, well intentioned, conservative republicans, they say, i do not want democrats. they have made inflation, they want higher taxes, i want lower taxes, i want less regulation. these are views that good people of good faith hold. how do the square that with voting for a democrat? >> they simply, ali, do not want democrats to control. they don't want them to control the house, or the senate, because they believe so many of the republicans i talked to, privately, that democrats are a greater threat. i do not, for the life of me, ali, luck. i do not think we should forgive student loans. that is not a bigger threat to

this country than the end of our democracy. that is where the republican party is right now. it is not good enough for people like liz cheney to say, i would not support kari lake. the normal governor of virginia, he is endorsing and supporting keri lake. so, you cannot support this party, right now, because the party is owned, ali, by this anti-democracy thing. it is no longer a fringe thing. it is this party. >> so, if i'm a republican or conservative and i say, i do not want to forgive salons, i don't want to do this, i do not want to increase tax rates, blah, blah, blah, what is the hope that i will do what joe walsh and liz cheney say? i will vote for democrat this time around? it might be next time in 2024. is there ever going to be a republican party? does it fixed itself? is there a home for

conservatives one day? i do not actually want liberals in power. how do you convince people that there is a light at the end of this very dark conservative tunnel? >> ali, you are right. i have to be honest. i am a dark irishman. i do not have much hope for this party and i think that something will come along. down the road we are going to reach a critical mass where there are so many people like me and liz cheney, and adam kinzinger, who do not have a home. but, my gosh, i tell these folks, could conservatives, do you understand that the leader of that party led a violent attempt to overthrow the american election? do you understand that? he is still the leader of that party. he will be the nominee in 2024. my god, that is more important than any tax policy, right now, or any regulatory policy, right now. because, ali, you know and we

have talked about this. if our elections are gone, and then forget about democracy. none of this other policy stuff matters. >> joe there are liberals, there are conservatives, there are people in the middle. you as a conservative were a couple of bedrooms to the right of even most conservatives. so, you know who they are. and none of them are watching the show this morning. so, where do they get convinced of this? who do they hear from? are they listening to liz cheney? to take care? have they fallen for the trump criticism of her that she is a republican in name only? >> we try to get them on the margins. you are right. they listened to fox news. they are not getting any of this. they are getting all the trump's and bs on fox news. when i had a conservative talk radio show i could reach them. i still talk to these folks, every day, because i come from their world. i will be honest, ali, look, i

engage with hundreds of them every week, conservatives, and republicans, and maybe i can just move a few. but, the vast majority, ali, they are gone. which is why i believe that this party will not change. my hope, and my prayer, is that, and i hope i am not too old to say this, is that something new will come along. but, look, none of that, ali, right now matters. right now it is all about saving democracy. so, right now i am on team democracy. which means, vote for the democratic party. as tough as that can be, at times. >> joe, thanks for always being in the conversation. this is not new to you even when you were not a republican, you are always engaging. we have a former republican congressman. he's the host of white flag with joe walsh. coming, up the direct flecked of more by -- nuclear armageddon is the greatest threat it has been in 60 years. are we heading towards total anni