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also afraid, because we saw what happened to fellow. >> how do you feel at the moment? >> scared. >> there were 15 kids there, right? and everybody was running? is that right? >> yes. >> in talking to witnesses, yet to be sure to what they think they know and what they observed and a level of detail that they can share with you because you are trying to get it right. >> witness testimony and any

criminal cases problematic. we see things differently, it's the way that life works. therefore, the defense was able to establish that the jury does not believe anything that these eyewitnesses are testifying to, because they're conflicting statements anyway. >> can you tell the jury what the -- >> i don't remember. >> you don't remember that. >> i don't. >> you know who's not decide to fill up against the wall? >> no. >> it's not because you're not looking f up that time? >> no. i just know who is on the side of him. >> so the only one that you are looking at, even though you didn't know he died a gun vote. >>. yes >> i'm nothing further, thank you. >> when you said that you saw phil get shot -- >> i never said i saw get those shot, you asked me. >> did you go on television and given interview about what you saw on april 10th, 1990? >> yes. >> and you say on television in the interview that you saw phil with his hands up in the air? >> they also asked me. >> jonathan, i ask you the

question. >> well, i'll tell you the question -- >> we have all put witnesses on the stance, real good, prepping them and in office and you go, oh my god -- >> you have indicated that you never said which officer you saw the flash come from. >> -- i don't remember tottenham to i saw it from the officer gun. >> did you see which officer had shot at the individual? the answer, he's a big guy, you indicated, he was the one i sought to me, look like to ask him from his gun. did you say the? >> if it is on the statement, evidently, i did. >> their credibility was a best suspect. again, you're not sitting there lying, but what you are saying is can you depend on this to prove something beyond reasonable doubt?

>> melvin berry, a former teaneck resident told the jury that are now trying to give up when the police opened fire. >> as he was running, he motioned to stop, how, shot went off. >> you remember telling the police four days after the incident that he never had his hand i look you certainly? >> -- >> there is a strange development in the trial of the police officer accused of killing teenager philip piano and teaneck. a key witness for the prosecution was taken into custody after the miss testimony. >> soon after he left a stand, controversy broken out after he was arrested by bergen county police on april violation as he left the courtroom. a police dispatcher watching the trial on tv recognize the man, recognized the outstanding warrant and called the office of the burn county sheriff to have him picked up. >> prosecutors say it was an attempt to intimidate the

witness. >> we don't want to intimidate anyway it whatsoever anyone on the sheriffs panel that are in this courtroom in any way, has affected this jury or in any way the proceedings. >> when he was arrested, it drew attention to the fact that the sheriff of bergen county at that time, jack -- was a former teaneck police officer. so now, one of spaatz allies in the police department was in charge at the sheriff's department which is running security for the trial. >> because of the fact that the sheriff was a former scenic police officer, the implication is at least on the part of the prosecution that this was in some way to plant the intimidate the witness of the court. >> that's not true. as a matter of fact, the sheriff's not been in the building that day. >> but the pannel family says that they orchestrated their arrest. >> he knew that he had a record from a year ago, so it was a setup. >> it was sending a message to

all the other witnesses that we will find a way to come after you and it was a story of that trial. the trial was all about intimidation and harassment a black people to make sure that we were going to be put into our place. >> i don't know why we want to intimidate. i don't know what he did. -- >> i think what the attorney general is concerned about is that someone may not want to come. >> i'd like to see the attorneys in chambers. >> a trial that was being watched nationwide to see a black, male witness arrested after he testified was not a good sign. was not a good sign. is not just a cold. coricidin is the #1 doctor recommended cold and flu brand. specially designed for people with high blood pressure. be there for life's best moments. trust coricidin. (vo) the older. the physically challenged. the last to be chosen.

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when a truck hit my car, for 100 days. the insurance company wasn't fair. visit listenlively.com i didn't know what my case was worth. so i called the barnes firm. i was hit by a car and needed help. i called the barnes firm, that was the best call i could've made. i'm rich barnes. it's hard for people to know how much their accident case is worth. let our injury attorneys help you get the best result possible. i want to go to every trial ♪ the barnes firm injury attorneys ♪ ♪ call one eight hundred, eight million ♪ date, but i couldn't because i had to go to school. so the days that i knew it was going to be an important witness, i wanted to make sure that i was there. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> welcome back, we're about to go life into that courtroom in

the case of new jersey versus police officer gary spath. >> when you have conflicting testimony about what happened and no videotape, it's the forensic evidence that really helps both sides, but it generally ups the prosecution. assuming you have credible experts that can explain the forensic evidence in a way that fits within the common understanding of most jurors. >> let's go into the courtroom to see what they are seeing there. >> in this case, i think that the prosecution had a very difficult hill to climb in making that testimony simple enough so it would resonate with the jury. >> [inaudible] >> michael biden, -- >> michael bodden was a well-known expert and forensics and particular autopsies. >> now, the most significant

beecher has to do with the entrance of the bullet in this area where there is a little bridge at the eight different. >> michael baden said if you take a look at the bones that were not touched by that bullet, it would indicate that phillips hands were either at his shoulder level or maybe above his head, perhaps in surrender. >> [inaudible] but the left upper extremity, the left upper arm was above, i had to be above 90 degrees. >> the problem was that spath attorney, robert kyler gucci was able to poke holes into michael bodden's conclusions. he was able to poke enough holes in those to raise some reasonable doubt. >> in the event that the upper arm was above 90 degrees and taking from the elbow, this is

part of say that medically you cannot tell from the elbow -- would be looking medically as you describe to the jury? >> i cannot tell what is going on -- >> i thought it was a very effective cross examination of doctor baden. he did not say that your conclusions are wrong. he just said, you really can't come to those conclusions based upon the limited degree of evidence that you have. >> keep in mind this challenge that the prosecution faced. they were trying to percent philip as a human being and so in order to show graphically where the bullet hole was on phillips body, they decided to use a live model.

>> the young man here is an employee of the state of new jersey named george -- he was selected for this demonstration because of his similarity in height and weight to the young man who was killed in the shooting, philip pannel. >> what i asked mr. wright to do is to remove his top comments he had on to expose his left back where the bullet at third, so i can make the same measurements on his body as were made on the body of mr. pannel. >> this guy was like holding his hands up, and i want to say i remember them putting the red coat on him in a depiction of my brother. it made me feel angry because i felt like, it was not like that even cared or took into consideration that my mother was there. she had to go through all this, or our family was there. >> that is something to me when i have seen the. i couldn't imagine him in a

coat and that young man was the same says that he was. that really made me feel like i actually saw when he is running from something. i have actually seen him running with that jacket on, that he had his hands up. that's what my mind went blank, like in a day's do the whole trial, i was in the days. >> for the pannel family, there was a sense that the courtroom was hostile towards them. it reached a breaking point when the defense called her own forensic experts. >> who is vincent -- >> he happens to be my son. you quoting his book? or -- >> i'm quoting from his book that's entitled gunshot wounds, practical aspects of firearms, ballistics and forensic techniques. >> you hope i read it?

>> off to you in. >> this is no joke, everybody. >> everybody thinks this is a joke? everybody thinks this is a joke. everybody thinks this is a joke. this isn't a joke. everybody thinks this is a joke. >> i pray that it never happens to one of them for this is no laughing matter. there was nothing to laugh about. about. seriously? one up the power of liquid, one up the toughest stains. any further questions? uh uh! one up the power of liquid with tide pods ultra oxi.

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dragging on and on. i am sure that the morale was as low as it possibly could be. the community was blaming gary, at least many members of the community. >> one of the reasons that it was an emotional police for the police was because scary was such a nice guy and well-known. >> i remember somebody telling me early on that he is not one of the, quote unquote, cowboys on the police department, that this is a guy that basically got along very well with people in the community. >> i know we grew up in teaneck. his parents grew up in teaneck. his father was a police detective. >> his father was on the force. his father was up in the juvenile bureau. so as the sun, he wanted to impress him and show him that

he was able to do the job and be just like him. >> i knew gary spath, we went to elementary school together. we were part of this integration experience, right? so i knew him. he knew me. >> i went to high school with gary spath. he was a great baseball player. he was funny, always tried to make you laugh. i knew him as a good guy, decent person. >> everybody just loved it when he was around, because he played a little practical jokes and different people in the department, and we used to get a kick out of it. >> he quickly got a reputation for being a community oriented police officer. he would on his off-duty coach different sports teams and activities. on the job, he would help people out if they had trouble

getting out of the driveway, help them shovel out the snow, changing tires for people. >> he was loved and like by everyone, and that's why everyone took it so hard that that happened. >> it just made it even more troubling to understand. >> give your name and a town that you live in, the addressed is not necessary. just the town. >> my name is norman brew, i live in teaneck. >> this is a day in which the defense has been given an opportunity to prevent -- present its own evidence. they called norman brew this afternoon. he initiated the telephone call saying that there is a gunman near the home. >> very important to the defense strategy was trying to show that spath life was in danger. >> i saw one of the boys put his hand in his pocket and pull out a gun.

that's when i went inside and called the police. >> brian school playground. a group of kids. one in particular wearing a red jacket and red cap. an unknown caller believes that that youngster had a gun in his pocket. he saw the weapon. he's not share from a distance if it's a toy or real. >> the dispensed are told scary spath we don't know if it's real or a toy. this could have been a toy on. one of the questions that continue to hover over the trial and indeed over the defense strategy was this, was gary spath reckless that day? the defense had several options are. one was to put gary spath on the stand. the other option, which the defense decided to go with the

first, was to put the other officer on the scene that they, on the witness stand, and that was wayne blanco. >> we have been waiting a long time to hear from officer wayne blanco, another one in authority at the time of the shooting. >> gary's partner wayne was a good cop. he was not one of these law enforcement guys who felt that it was a war. he understood what to enoch was, the communities in teaneck. wayne had a good sense of justice to. >> would you do when you got out of the car? >> i had my weapon. john >> budgetary weapon? >> because we had a report of a man with a gun. >> blanco in many respects as one of the key witnesses at the trial. he was the guy that could back up spath. was spath life in danger? >> there was a male they're wearing a red cap and a red coat. everyone turned and started to walk towards the wall. he started flailing around his

arms and saying you guys have no right. he started to sidestep. i reached up my left hand, and i felt his right pocket. >> did you feel anything in his or pocket? >> no. >> and then what do you do? >> ayden reached over to his left pocket. >> and what you do? >> i felt an object in his pocket, which i believed to be a gun. >> what happened when your hand touched his left pocket? >> we made eye contact and his eyes got white. and he turned and one. >> i read blanco statement, and i thought the portions of it were not true. there were at least five kids in that school yard who said he never touched him. i believe the kids. >> did you see either other two police officers to a first search or pet down on the suspect? >> no -- >> there was no frisk that i

seen, because i was on the corner, but there is no frisk. he never got that close to him. >> the reason that is important because i don't believe spath has specific knowledge that philip pannel had a gun. i think he suspected it, but i don't think he knew it. >> at the time that filipino was shot and killed, gary spath never had that firsthand knowledge. did you tell him which pocket it was? in >> no, all we do is that he had a gun. >> regardless of whether plunk padded phillips jacket what he said he did or not, the one thing we do know is that neither spath nor blanco actually saw this guy before spath shot philip. >> well, the suspect then ran about 20 feet, i'd say, and he put his left hand in his left side of the pocket and suddenly

turned. and then officer spath fired the shot. >> he did not fire weapon, did you? >> no, because officer spath beat me to it. >> and then blanca said if it spath did not shoot him, he would've shot him. that means my son had no chance. he had no chance. had no chance because the only way you're ever gonna know is by heading into the big, wild, raging so-damned-beautiful- it-hurts world and finding out for yourself. were you born to follow a path? or were you born free? these are the things we thought about when we made the new grand cherokee. made for what you're made of. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ this is the moment. for a treatment for moderate-to-severe eczema.

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i did not want somebody to get away with killing him and he

did not deserve to die. whether i liked him or not, or whether we got along are not. >> we had her hopes up that maybe the jury would put the kids are one of their family members in our shoes. so, we was hopeful. >> welcome back, we expect to go live into the courtroom before the trial of new jersey versus police officer gary spath. >> security here has been remarkably tight, and there has been an extremely tight restriction to exit the courtroom. only eight journalists are allowed inside in a courtroom that has 70 seats. >> as you can see, it's always packed, and you will see in the audience there, police officers, and they have been there every day. >> this is a political issue, we have to understand this. the officers are there to give supported her fellow officer. they're also there to send a message to the jury, implicitly, they're saying, we are here, because we are protecting you. we are the ones, and we must

have that right to make that judgment out on the street. >> it was basically trying to show and to prove to us are nothing this, that you can do testify against us, you can show up in court, but you don't matter because we will show more force than you. we will occupy one half of the courtroom and show our police strength. we will come into the courthouse with our weapons. we will make sure that you understand who is in control. they are telling you who you are in this community, and that you have no standing. you have no agency, so basically, what we do in this courtroom, this is just business on our part. we will be done with this. you will be done. people are not even going to think about this kid in another. >> the courtroom is felt. there were spectators that wanted to get in, but they

could not have seats. and yet, the doors to the courtroom opened and incomes the officer in a wheelchair. >> the person who you see they're sitting in a wheelchair is officer steven mcdonald of the new york police force. as you can see, he is partially paralyzed. he was shot by a teenager with a weapon in central park in new york. his presence here on this day is fairly obviously a show of solidarity and support for officer gary spath. >> mcdonald was a symbol, a very real simple to try to show that spath life was in danger. >> to show the jury the reality of what happens to a police officer when the gunshot, when they get injured to a point that their entire life changes

in his put second. i think at times, whether we are a jury or just others listening to a story, it does not capture in your mind and in your heart and in your soul and in your spirit what you physically see. when they saw steve mcdonald in that wheelchair, you can only cause you to think about what happens to the cup if that cop waits a split second, what happens to them, they become a statement donald. >> ladies and gentlemen, i'm gonna ask you to retire to the jury room. >> the judge stopped the trial. he asked the jury to take a break, and then immediately, immediately got angry with what the defense was up to. >> he had no right to be brought into this courtroom after we started the morning session. it is a terrible thing that has been done. a terrible thing. >> i knew it was to make the

jury's look at him to say, this is what could have happened to one of the other cups or whatever. but that had nothing to do with this, to make this incident. that had nothing to do with this. >> there has to be something done, absolutely, unequivocal in relation to the admission of spectators. the state police beginning monday will be taken care of, security and the job of a mission into this courtroom -- >> so the dangerously state police came in and replaced the bergen county sheriff's department as security for the child. >> i don't know if it helped or hurt because the judge was quite angry. he thought it was a stunt. >> this really cut to the heart of the deeper tension that was

underneath the straw. it was this cauldron of a motion at the chorus, both in the courtroom and outside that was boiling up by the time gary spath finally took the witness stand. ♪ ♪ ♪ there is some concern that spot but not be able to handle testifying on the witness stand. >> i had no choice but to shoot at him to save my own life. >> judges indicated the participants that the jury has

reached a verdict. >> at the verdict, the story was very much left unsettled. unsettled >> tonight, another week of legal setbacks for the former president, there are still more twists in the case of the missing documents. as the current president and still becomes a troubling take of the nuclear risk of armageddon. then, countdown to the midterms with control of the house and senate on the line, there's even more abortion controversy in the crucial senate race in georgia. plus, the united states of america at a crossroads, scott galloway offers solutions with his unique perspective on a nation he says is adrift. stephanie goes one-on-one with the author as the 11th hour