so, they're not prescribing paxlovid as aggressively as they peter, did. thank you for being with us again. we always appreciate it. peter motels is a co director for the center for vaccine development, the texas children's hospital. he's the author of the important book, preventing the next pandemic. vaccine diplomacy in a time of anti-science. straight ahead, politics backed edition of velshi. a slew of election deniers are likely to be elected in the upcoming midterms. will november be the death of american democracy? don't tweet me to tell me i'm exaggerating the making stuff up, okay? the stuff is really serious. if it happens, will be a little upset about it after november. -- michael cohen weighs in on the slew of investigations into his former boss, including brand-new reporting overnight from the new york times. it's phil -- know that our velshi begins right now. right now.

morning. it is sunday october the 9th. i am velshi. it is 21 months ago, just hours after the halls of the capitol were cleared of the insurrectionists tomb of the building in an attempt to prevent joe biden from becoming the presidents. 147 republican members of congress, remember that number, voted against certifying his victory. now, as we head into the final weeks of the 2022 midterms, it appears likely that the number of election deniers and congress is going to increase on november 8th. according to a new washington post analysis, the majority of the republican parties candidates for congress, and top state executive positions this year, are election deniers who have spread donald trump's big lie about baseless, unfounded, in debunked claims of widespread election fraud in 2020. by the washington post county, take a look at this, there are 299 republican candidates vying to be representatives -- or attorney general. that's all the squares. to 99.

they've denied the -- in some form or the last two years. take a look at the ones and right. 173 of them were favored to win this. year in the republican states are districts. 52 others are in competitive races, and have a chance of winning. of those 173 favorite to win, 153 are running for seats in congress. that six more than the hundred and 47 who voted to overturn the 2020 election results. the collective victory of all these election deniers this year could in fact have cash -- consequences for american democracy. congress, they could reject the results of the next presidential election. light, 147 of them tried to do. as governors, they would have the power to decide whether not to certify electors, well secretary of state said the -- this is a sign of how this faction, emboldened by donald trump's big lie, has

transformed the republican party. it didn't have to be this way. this is a path of the republican party chose since trump emerged as a political force in 2016. and number of republicans have tried to counter his rise. the congresswoman, liz cheney, of wyoming, she's practically made her mission to give people an alternative to donald trump. in recent weeks, shortly after losing in her primary, she's even floated the idea of running for president in 2024 as a spoiler candidate. if she runs, she's going to take votes away from donald trump and the democrat will win. she's doing it in hopes of coming into the twice impeached insurrectionist ex presidents chances of reclaiming the web house if he decides to run again. and a few moments, i'm going to talk to michael cohen, who says that trump is not going to run. a lot of people says he will. on tuesday, republican cheney, here she, as made an appearance in arizona during which she urged residents not to vote for fellow republicans carrie length and mark finchem.

like it's wanting to be arizona's governor, finch for secretary of state. both have been hard lined election deniers despite the fact that joe biden's victory in arizona has been declared legitimate multiple times after the state performed its own -- even the fraud didn't find that donald trump won the election. lincoln fincher is rising figures in the gop. liz cheney is on the out. she's chosen for country over party. standing up to a challenging donald trump's autocratic tendencies. even though trump's name won't appear in any ballot, anywhere in this country and november, the satin unfortunately undeniable truth is that his corrupting influence can be felt all over. many republicans have taken their dues for interim, crafting the political persona's after how. line their way to power. copying his combative style in order to avoid having to answer for their past moral, ethical, and political shortcomings. we are living through an exceptionally tumultuous era in

modern politics, marked by the resurgence of far-right extremists so-called militias. i say so called because you're not allowed to have a militia in the united states. in the widespread dissemination of disinformation and conspiracy theories, it's an era when people are freely referencing resurrecting the civil war. the bloodiest conflict in american history, an everyday political discourse. according to the new york times, mentions of the civil spiked on various social media platforms in early august, shortly after the news broke that the fbi executed a court authorized search of mar-a-lago. trump's palm beach residents. invoking the civil war in response to practically anything is unacceptable rhetoric, but that kind of sums up the current moments in political discourse and polarization in america. the republican party today is glued to gather to do an incoherent scent of values and misinformation that is having a real impact on vulnerable groups of americans throughout the country. as it stands today, there's

still a good chance that they can retake control of both houses of congress when people take to the polls 30 days from now. joining me now is steve bannon, he's the editor of the -- he's a producer for the rachel maddow show, he's also a writer of the impostures, how republicans could govern seized american politics. steve, we thought of before this one's conversation because it's amorphous. we're not entirely sure about what to do with this conversation. there are election night morning across the country, for many voters like you and me, we don't get to vote for them or against them. they're running in districts somewhere across the country, with the consequences of them winning will affect us all in the democracy in which we live. >> yeah, that's exactly right. i mentioned it -- watching the show. thinking, you know, out of hold all this before. every two years, every four years, people like steve bannon and velshi have on-the-air say this is important, there were really high stakes. you know, maybe this year it's more of the same. let me tell those viewers right now, that is a mistake in assumption. this year is not just another election cycle. this is not just another

segment telling you about the same things you've heard before. what's different right now is that there's been -- that is nominating election deniers in key positions across the country at the top of the ballot, and down towards the ball at the ballot, and once those people are in positions of authority, are going to have the potential to have serious consequences for our democracy. not just before the election, and placed new hurdles between voters in the ballot box, but after the election where they start to maybe decide they're not going to certify election results they don't like. and when you look at that dynamic, when you look at that threat, we, it's not on realistic, us want exaggeration to think that democracy is very much in peril. >> what about the other side of this? i said the other side of this, i mean the liz cheney's at the world. i had a conversation with joe walsh who's a big trump supporter. the republicans who are actually republicans. they are conservatives, they don't have liberal policies. liz cheney's, they call her a republican in name only, she hardly as ever supported a liberal or non conservative

policy in her 40 years of politics. do those people have any influence? can they move any needles? our viewers are intrigued to know about these people, but our conservative viewers? >> yeah, that is not only a good question, that is the good question. right now, over the course the less ever months, we keep thinking he will be an influential voice in republican politics right now. who able to get a message to these gop voters that this year is different. that the election deniers are serious threat. who will have the credibility to necessarily connect with voters? maybe it's a shady. maybe it's people like mr. walsh, he spoke with. the problem is, polls suggest that these voices are not coming through. election denialism has taken to such a degree in republican politics that they're tuning out liz cheney. we saw that in her primary. her primary where she stood up for democracy. she said, for principle of the constitutional system. what did she do? she lost by like 40 votes, by

40%. despite being an incumbent, despite been -- the fear is that there are seeing people, they're saying the right things, but the really only resonating with voters who are not going to vote for democrats anyways. that is difficult to think of, who is it going to be who can have that credibility to connect with these voters and say, no, this year is different. we really a cause for concern, and -- >> that is one problem, getting conservatives to do the right thing. the other thing is that it's a midterm election. some people don't show up. people don't think the midterm election could possibly be consequential to democracy as a whole. a couple of challenges that we're facing between now and evaporates. see, thank you very much. as, always good to see. steve bannon is the editor of the maddow blog. he's the author of the impostures. if you don't follow him, by the, way really shed. he's prolific. political campaign ads are meant to introduce people to a politician running for office.

you've all seen the, they're commonplace. they've been very generic and formulaic. the typical add features the candidate with their family as you hear them talking about their fate, about patriotism. sometimes holding a gun. every once in a, while a new ad buy a new politician comes out that subverts expectations and touches a nerve. and speaks to the moment in which we are living. that is what happened last week, when katie darlene, of louisiana democrat, running for a seat in the house of representatives, released her latest campaign ad. as she speaks, i would like you to pay very close attention, and just stop and watch this for a second. as she speaks in a voice over about louisiana struck one an abortion ban in the lack of support the state gives poor pregnant women. the ad features footage of darling going through labor. >> i'm katie darlene. i live on a farm and sent tammy paris. our family compost collects rainwater in grows around food. my husband and daughter helped

take care of the chickens. there is someone else is going to be joining us and helping pitch in with farm life very soon. but these days i worry, about storms that are stronger and more frequent because of climate change. about our kids, underperforming public schools. and about louisiana's new abortion ban, one of the strictest and most severe in the country. we should be putting pregnant women at ease, not putting their lives at risk. i haven't spent my career in washington. i've worked my way up from bartender to ceo. now, i help nurses organizer complicated health records. nurses aren't as heroes, there are states. buoys the end it deserves better than the path we're on. i'm katie darling, and i'm running for congress because i want that better path. for you, for her, and for him.

>> we don't make it a habit to show full political ads on the show, but this one has been different than the ones i've seen -- she's running against the house minority whip in louisiana's first district. katie, thank you for being with us. i need you to tell us a little more about what the thinking was on this at. you are definitely portraying yourself as an outsider, which is very relevant to a lot of voters today. who are kind of tired of inside is making decisions for them. you're portraying yourself as an outsider who has experiences that will relate directly to the people you hope are going to vote for you, and to whom you are going to represent. >> well i really wanted to share my story, of what it's like to be a pregnant person in louisiana during the summer of 2022. i want to share what it's like having a family in a state or

quality of life is 50/50. families are already struggling and suffering with storms in our education system. the recent trigger abortion ban makes things much more difficult. >> there are, in american history, only ten members of congress have given birth while in office. kenny dent, worked the senate democrat from illinois became the first one to do so since 2018. this happens in other countries. prime ministers giving birth, politicians given birth, a lot more women representing, being represented in country legislatures. do you think that women with your experience, and what way do women with your experience, if they are elected, change the way that some of these things you talk about in your ad are down in america? >> we need more diverse representation in offices, and every officer across the country, and state legislatures, and d.c., so that folks can speak about what their life is

like and represent the people in their districts, in their home states. we are present various life experiences. when there are more women in office, more women with children in office, we can directly speak to the correct impacts of this legislation. we can draft legislation that helps provide resources for healthy families. when you have women in office, we can speak up on behalf of ourselves and our communities. currently, with the majority folks who don't have young kids, majority of men in office, that is how dangerous legislation gets passed like what we see in louisiana. >> but then the way, the collapse of roe v. wade, which is activated a lot of women, and a lot of men, to be concerned about the taking away of rights. before that, we don't have paid family leave, we don't have maternity leave in the ways the most of their families have.

what does that resonate with people? how does that -- it's more than table matters, these are life matters. how is a resonating? >> well i can tell you that i didn't have -- an incident going back to work way too soon. luckily, i am working with the company now worried to have paid leave, side to mom maternity leave right now, while also running for congress. these things are real, the point of my ad is to share how real the circumstances are and i feel like in the ad, folks are connecting to the reality, the impact of this legislation. >> a bit of a problem here is that you're running in a district where there is a republican who is very senior. the idea that the republicans might take congress would be appealing to some of your voters, your constituents, because they have steve police who is going to be in leadership. he's not going to be a member of congress, he'll be in leadership. how do you overcome that?

how do you deal with the fact that some people vote for someone because they think they're going to be important congress? >> well, we have to put aside partisan politics, and we have to look at what life is like here at home. steve scalise has been in office for 14 years, and louisiana is still 50 out of 50 and quality of life. we are dealing with more storms, and steve kolisi is voting against legislation that brings resources back home to recover from storms, to rebuild our infrastructure, a key votes against bills that release -- their prove education. we are living through that. i hope the voters can look at his voting history and see how he's voting against our interests here at home for partisan politics. >> i want to ask you about something you said which was published in the october 5th. it is important for folks is the upward to see him birth as a medical event that occurs in a hospital with doctors. i am the one of the hospital

bed, not the legislatures in baton rouge or washington. it's me, it's my family. it effects us. we are the people who should be deciding what goes on in that hospital room, not the folks from outside. you're talking about pregnancy and birth, but that could apply to roe v. wade. >> absolutely. i believe every person has the right to privacy, to bodily autonomy. i support everyone making the decisions they want to make for their families. that's exactly who should be making those decisions. the person themselves, and their medical professionals consulting them. it shouldn't be legislators in d.c. or baton rouge. >> i'll just leave with one more quote from that same article in which the same seven months pregnant this summer when they overturn roe v. wade. i had a high-risk pregnancy, i was very concerned about what would happen to me if i had a complication during the pregnancy. my first reaction was, i need to move somewhere where i would be safe. katie darling, thank you for the ad. thanks for being with us this morning. things were talking about it. thanks for taking time audio maternity leave to talk to my viewers. katie darlene is a candidate

for louisiana congress and the first district. still ahead this hour, according to a recent reporting, the justice department suggests this infamous pilot documents seized mar-a-lago might not be all trump has. plus, a blockbuster new account for the new york times claims that trump may have had plans for the documents. i'll be joined later this hour by trump's former personal attorney and fixer, michael cohen. he's a man with no shortage of experience whelan in dealing with behalf of the failed ex president. plus, we've been honing in on crucial states to watch this midterm season. today we're taking a hard look at georgia. we have two controversial candidates in the spotlight. notable election denier, and qanon conspiracy theorist, congresswoman marjorie taylor greene. and then a candidate, herschel walker. el walker ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪i like to vöost it, vöost it♪ ♪my vitamins can boost it♪ ♪i like to vöost it, vöost it♪ ♪we like to vöost it♪

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than a month away, once again, i'm like a broken record to remind you that democracy itself is in peril. i suspect if you're watching this, you already know that.

washington post reported this week that 299 republican khamenei is on the ballot this november for house senate in key statewide office says. they have denied or questioned the outcome of the last presidential election. from now until election day, we're examining where and how democracy is at risk in various states in this consequential election. i'll be going out, as i normally do join elections to some of these places, but we're looking at a number of other states as well, including georgia. let's start with the congressional race for georgia's now 14 district. you're saying your self, what's the 14 district in georgia? this one represented by congresswoman marjorie taylor greene, who has currently zero committee assignments. she is running for -- marcus flowers. you might know congresswoman -- from becoming the first candidate to bring qanon to a national platform while wearing the trump one mask while being sworn into office on january the 3rd, 2021. -- comparing -- she talked about space lasers.

she told ilham omar to go back to the middle east. omar has been a citizen since she was 17 years old after fleeing sommelier, which is not in the middle east. perhaps you know her for harassing marjorie taylor greene, a parkland school survivor. whoever you know her for, she likely be reelected without a hitch. -- predicted a solid republican victory. marjorie taylor greene was almost not in the ballot, not because she lost the ballot, but because a group of voters sought to -- her role in january six insurrection. there is a rare revision in the 14th amendment against insurrection or rebellion, but the judge ultimately rejected their appeal. now we turn to the senate raised, which for republican nominee herschel walker seems to be an everlasting series of october surprises. walker is a former football star and staunch abortion conservative. the new york times reported this week that the same woman

who said he paid for her abortion in 2009, also said that he urged her to terminate an additional pregnancy to thousand 11. herschel walker has denied these allegations, stating he's never paid for pressured a woman to have an abortion. the woman who initially shared her story with the daily beast has physical rashid sets a differently. abc news has not independently confirmed those documents. walker says he only confirmed the woman's identity on friday when she played out her allegations in a series of text messages between her and walker's wife. those texts were provided set msnbc by walker's campaign. with a brief interview with msnbc news, walker said this is the first time that the woman, who is the mother of his four children, is the first time that she mentioned to him or his wife that she had an abortion. in a pre-trump era, normal races like these, it would result in a major political candidate. let alone anyone who --

republicans are rallying behind herschel walker, pumping $500,000 of new donations into his campaign since the stories dropped. that is from a couple days ago, so i don't know what it is now. according to the washington post, rick scott and tom scott unplanned a rally for him in -- if you had a spinning from all of that, just know that the cook political report, which handicaps these things, might the call in the race between walker the democratic nominee senator raphael warnock, a toss-up. on the other side of the break, i'm joined by two experts on georgia politics, erin haines is shannon mccarthy. stay with us. stay with us like #4 supreme meats. smoky capicola, genoa salami and pepperoni! it's the dream team of meats. i've still got my uniform. it's subway's biggest refresh yet.

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tools to give -- joining us also, chateau macabre, a politics reporter for the atlantic journal -- covering the georgia election very closely. good morning to all of you. thank you for being with us. jen, let me start with. you these accusations of herschel walker applauded nationwide. nationwide doesn't matter, or maybe matters for fundraising, but it doesn't matter in terms of votes. in terms of your reporting, how are georgia voters responding to all of this news about herschel walker? >> thanks for having me. while georgia voters are responding enough predictable way. they're republicans who are hard-core, you know, herschel walker's supporters are going to stay within. they're going to see anything that's coming out now as kind of an 11th hour attempt by democrats in the media to discredit him. democrats aren't going to vote for him anyways. the fight right now is with these small sliver of independents. this is a toss-up. it's going to come down to whoever can win over those, that small group of

independents. i don't think we know how it's playing out with those folks. i think that's yet to be determined. you know, the other thing is, if some republicans are not able to vote for him. they just cannot get over some of these allegations, they can't vote for him, you know, that will be damaging for him to. i really think right now, it's a bit too early to say how it's going to play out. >> i'm unclear but whether those people, air, and who decide the conservatives, or independents for whom herschel walker is a bridge too far, stay home, sit on their hands, or they vote for raphael warnock. senator raphael warnock, he wanted a special election, which is why he's up for reelection again on november 8th. he has been quite reserved in reactions to these controversies. in fact, here's what he said yesterday when columbus georgia, let's just play that. >> it's up to georgia voters, it's not up to him, is not up to meet, he is up to them.

we do know that my opponents has trouble with the truth. we'll see how this plays out, but i am focused squarely on health care needs of my constituents, including reproductive health care. >> what do you think about that, aaron? i guess his thinking as, herschel walker is taking care of herschel walker. we don't need to talk about the stuff he cares about. should he come out when more than he has? >> well, now i think that is what you're seeing. we're seeing rockville warnock really seeking to be issues. talk about his record, his short term already in the senate these last couple years, what he already has done, and what he's hoping to continue to do for georgians even as we go into the latest revelation and herschel walker's narrative. look, to shannon's point, whether we're talking about herschel walker, who both kind of come with what some of us in our profession might consider

considerable political baggage, the bottom line voters is who's going to win, who will carry forward the agenda that they want? i don't have to tell she knew what democratic victory -- doesn't make the steak blue or even purple. raphael warnock did beat a candidate who had some problems in 2021. you know, the gop is really solidly focused on winning, and that's the thing that they care about. this time, they're kind of putting their hopes on, frankly, the running back on the history of georgia, rather than what continues to emerge about this narrative with, i guess, 30 days to go until election day in georgia. >> shannon, all three of us are journalists, we remember a time where stuff like this came out, there would be an apology, an explanation, and whatever the case may be. now there's a whole lot of gaslighting. it goes beyond, that in fact. there was, and i want to read from your reporting, in which he say the media was barred from attending a prayer --

by the audio, according to audio obtained by the atlanta journal-constitution. walker joked about the family jama. he said, i told my son, i have to get back to heaven's bank, and walkers it's a lot to from the audience. kind of a tricky thing for him to be talking about, given that some of the allegations against him are of domestic violence. >> that's right. he is taken from the trump playbook which is don't apologize, don't anything that acceptable down. i think that is really what he's doing at this point. he might be running out the clock. these newest allegations, you know, we still have about a month to a campaign. there is a debate that's going to come on friday, which is going to, you, know that these two candidates against each other for the first time. that will, i think, change the narrative sack. we may be going off these abortion allegations into a sort of head to head contest between the two of them, the

traditional political playbook is no more. this is the trump era in republican politics, you don't apologize, you double down. >> no kidding. aaron, in a head-to-head debate, because in a lot of states there are unusual republican candidates running. there are democratic opponents have refused to debate them in some cases because of the weirdness of it. and this, case is going to be a debate. raphael warnock, whose policy -- and herschel walker, by the, way talks about his fatal the time, raphael warnock is actually a pastor. how does that go? do you think that's a good idea for warnock to debate walker? how do you think that will go, and what will people see when they actually have these two guys on the stage and able to compare them side to side? >> yeah, i mean, this gives the debate in georgia that people want to see obviously. in the governor's race, we have stacey abrams, and incumbents. we also have -- we seen them on the debate stage, but we've never seen these two on a debate stage before. herschel walker, quite frankly, is already trying to set

expectations. you know, really casinos. of he's a football hero. waffle warnock is much smarter than me, he's much more polished than me. i'm going to do my best to really trying to set the stage that warnock may try to kind of ambush forecast himself as more of people, like every day georgians who the democratic elise try to embarrass or shame. maybe you'll see some of that on the debate stage. maybe can use that as a vantage. i think you're going to see rafael warner, senator warnock really taking the same kind of -- on the campaign trail. not really going up to his opponent in terms of personality, but really trying to stick to the politics, while also, in fact, trying to talk about his humble roots and his, and speak kind of plain language so that voters of georgia because, of the past

that he is, to appeal to them because literally three days after that scuttle first debate. >> middle weird election that you just brought up brian kemp and stacey abrams, which would be the biggest story under normal circumstances, but we're entirely talking was something. i think so much to both of you for being here, great analysis. editor -- shannon mccarthy is a politics reporter at the atlanta journal-constitution. all right, still ahead. could trump still have more documents? or somewhere else? the justice department says probably. let's see what trump's former friend of personal attorney michael cohen says about the. you're watching velshi. ching velshi

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times shed some light on one possible use that president trump may have had for those cardboard boxes full of sensitive government documents in his home in florida. a little leverage. according to the reporting, new agendas some -- has not independently verified, trump was interested in potentially turning over the documents that he wasn't supposed to at all have an exchange for some information on the fbi's probe into his 2016 campaign ties to russia. turns out, is not so easy to work his art of the deal magic on the fbi. in just a few minutes from, going to talk to someone who has a lot of --

his fixer, michael cohen, who has strong views about the fact that donald trump might have been on this particular. dale on the sunday show with jonathan kaye part will dig into this as well. jonathan joins me now. jonathan, donald trump comes up with stuff that i would never occurred to me. hey, i've got documents that would be really bad and illegal for me to have, and i'll get them back to you if you give me other documents that i'm really not supposed to have. and then you cannot make this stuff up. >> no, you can't. it's like, yeah, i stole your stuff, but if you want it back, give me, if you want it back -- >> give me other stuff. >> it's insane. yeah, ali, we are going to also dig into that never-ending say go over the missing purloined documents that trump allegedly wanted to do with. animals are coming up on the sunday show, former republican -- is joining us to talk about his role on the january 6th select committee, and the new book the breach in our midterms candidates corner. today, we've got the great florida congresswoman. we'll talk about him moving the

needle, or trying to move the needle, in her favor to beat and convince ended and marco rubio. less so the candidate for governor of maryland. he'll join me in studio. we'll talk to him about a bunch of issues including about how he defines patriotism, which is striking compared to his trump best opponent. and one more thing, john colby will be joining us to talk about threats from abroad -- and we'll take a break from politics and talk to actors wendell pierson sharon d. clarke about the groundbreaking production of the classic death of a salesman. with an all-black cast. >> it will be an amazing show. i love the new introduced purloined to us. i don't use that word often on velshi, but now i'm going to start. jonathan, good to see my friend. the sunday show it jonathan kaye starts at 10 am. we're coming right back. e coming right back. ♪ what will you change? ♪ will you make something better? ♪ will you create something entirely new?

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leading up to the fbi raid of trump's florida resident that turned up a trove of classified documents. even if you are, and most bizarre right, now enclosed trusted to julia dealings from our twice impeached ex president, this one is actually a doozy. let's get up to speed on all we have learned about the mar-a-lago document investigation just this week. number one, according to reporting from the washington post stating multiple sources familiar with the matter, earlier this year, trump asked his lawyer, alex cannon detail the national archives that trump had already returned all of the documents that they national archives for seeking. canada refused to convey the message for trump, because he was not sure if it was true. spoiler alert. it was not true! trump still had thousands of documents, including some highly classified ones according to publicly released inventories, from the justice department. we should note nbc news has not independently verified the post verifying on that story, and all of has not responded 20 not from the post seeking comment

or confirmation. a trump spokesperson refused to answer the post specific question, but they respond with a colorful screen about post owner jeff bezos. then, the plot thickens again, this time by the new york times, the later confirmed by nbc news. we learned the justice department suspects that donald trump still has documents that he should not have, according to sources familiar with the matter. and now, a bombshell last night from the new york times. quote, late last year as the national archives ramped up the pressure on former president donald j trump through attorney boxes of records yes taken to the white house was mar-a-lago club, he came up with an idea to resolve the looming showdown. cut a deal. an exchange for a batch of sensitive documents on the fbi's investigation into his 2016 campaign ties to russia, mr. trump told advisors he would return to the national archives, the boxes of material that he had taken to mar-a-lago. according to the new york times,

trump never carried out the plan, and nbc news has not independently verified this reporting. but the allegation is huge. the new york times sources years a trump not only knew he was holding on to government property, he wanted to trade that government property for other government property about him which he was also not entitled. now i am no lawyer, i think it is safe to say none of this bodes well for donald trump if he faces obstruction charges. after this break, i am joined by the number one person you want to hear from on this, someone who has been chronicling his own experience of years spent concocting in carrying out schemes that sound a lot like what is being described this week, right alongside donald trump, his former lawyer, michael cohen. cohen ugh! advil dual action fights pain two ways. advil targets pain at the source, acetaminophen blocks pain signals. advil dual action. we really had our hands full with our two-year-old.

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moments, so that and that we could show off to people, when he would go thereafter to saudi arabia, or say hey look, i have this letter from putin, or i got this love letter. i mean, who gets love leaders from kim jong-un, right? i mean i don't get, it but not for me to discuss. also, i believe he took the top secret documents for the sole purpose of using it as a get out of jail free card. basically leverage. for him, it is power and leverage. >> joining me now is michael cohen, donald trump's former personal attorney, host of the

podcast, author of this loyal, a memoir and a brand-new book called revenge. how donald trump weaponized the department of justice against critics. the book comes out october 11th. michael, i have you to talk about it, but i have to read the book,? right so it is in here. but i can't show it to you, michael cohen, he said on nichols show, to me on this show sometime ago, that donald trump is hanging on to stuff for leverage. now all of the sudden, this reporting? >> i wish people would have listened to me, going back to 2018 when i testified before the house oversight committee hearing. not too many days ago, i actually had breakfast with representative carolina maloney. we're discussing the letter she had sent, on exactly this. the archives, to the national archives. she wanted nara to send a letter to donald trump, to mandate under oath and ensuing to the penalties of urgent, he's not --

any documents. does not know the existence of any more documents outside of nara, as well that he had not provided any documents to anybody else, from obvious national security reasons. good for her, you know? hopefully, she did the right thing, saying i'm sure he will ignore it, to which i believe that the house oversight committee will probably send the same letter to him, demanding he knew it. >> the audience might say, letters here, letters there. the point here is, under oath. get him to swear that he did this under oath. because then if anything is discovered, as contrary to what he says, that would be a federal crime. >> it'll be a violation of lying to congress, i know enough about that. >> let's talk a little bit about the way, if anybody thinks there are more documents, that they could get those, right? i mean, they went into mar-a-lago, they had a search warrant, it had to be that a judge had to sign off on it. what do they do now? it seems to be some reporting

now that the justice department thinks or says they don't have all of this stuff, how does this process work as far as you know? >> so this whole issue is absolutely crazy. the fact that we have to sit there, and play this game with a former president of the united states. i want my documents back? he's not entitled to them, first and foremost, they are not his. second of all, we know he has more documents. we know that because in the file folder, it specifically states them row documents in their. well obviously, there are more that are out there. on top of that, we should find out whether or not he photocopy to any of them as well. now he is playing the art of the deal, and he did not write that book anyways. but he's playing the art of the deal, where he says i will trade you this for that. this is beyond unheard of. certainly, if it was me, we would be in jail in 24 hours. the fact they are placating him only gives him the belief that

he has more power than what he originally does. think about what he is asking. i will trade you this top secret information, i will show it to you on the russian investigation. well here is a little side note for donald, i hope he's watching the program today. you are the president of the united states for four years, you had your lapdog from jeff sessions to attorney general bill barr in their. you could've gotten them, of course you could have. you are the president, hell, we have declassified stuff just by thinking it, imagine if you actually gave an offer. you know, if you gave a demand to your lapdog attorney general, >> you were in his orbit, documents he is looking for about the campaign, still in his orbit at the time. >> i can eat the whole finance thing also fugazi on top of that, you read my book, revenge. i never committed taxes asian never committed lying to a

bank. lanny davis was on all this stuff, on every single television shows showing, i'm a guy who's never been audited in my entire life, i did never not pay taxes. i never did not request an extension of time, i pay over $5 million in taxes during that time period. and all of this was in the sentencing memo that we provided to judge william h. polley the third, who ignored it completely. and we believe, according to release statements by fbi agents, some who are still in and some that are out, which you will read in the book, they all knew it was a lie. yet they needed to go ahead and do this. if you think about what came out recently in berman's book, where he makes the statement that the attorney general was putting pressure on their office to eyewash trump, or individual number one from any of the, you know, statements i had made, and only folded on tax evasion, and can't be financed, as well, i am

responsible for song and dance. i take responsibility for that. i am not responsible for karen mcdougal, all you have to do is google it. again i was still charged and find for it. >> by the way, he spent time in jail? >> i did. >> let's talk about what happens over here with donald trump. seems like he's getting mixed advice from his lawyer's, if you could hang on to his lawyers. and there's a dominant camp that wants him to make this adversarial posture we are reporting on. and another camp says perhaps, he always takes an adversarial posture, right? when does he ever not. in the experience of donald trump ever saying, you know what, let's give them the documents, maybe this will end? >> no. in fact during other investigations, he had literally pulled almost every person in the office, asking whether on alex garden, he was not the general counsel to the trump organization, whether or not he should've provided those documents, pursuing to subpoena. when we all said yes, it's pursuant to subpoena, you have to, not to mention he could lose his whole license, nobody

did, what ends up happening is he looks for the next guy and the next guy. >> last time he when i talked, you said, everyone wants to be the last voice in donald trump's ear. >> the last voice in his ear owns the conversation, owns the space in between those ears. so it does not matter who that person is, as long as they side with what he wants, what his knee-jerk reaction is. it does not matter if that person is real or imaginary, he will turn around and see who census on television and says, i spoke with smart guy. and he said -- well, that smart guy does not exist, they only exist in his mind, it is an altar ego. >> i got less than one minute left, but i want to ask you about something we are going on at trump rallies. they are now playing music that sounds very much like the qanon music, and people are giving a weird salute with you finger? like, it seems cult-ish and stuff like that. go back to your history with him, you have seen them flirt with this stuff over the years,

what is happening here? >> if you sat donald in this chair and asked him to talk to you about qanon, he could not. why? because he knows nothing about qanon. however, what he does know is that they support him, very much at the old statements of david duke, which i don't know anything about david duke. sure, you do. do you know about the ku klux klan, one it was formed? no. he does not know when qanon -- nothing, the problem is he knows that these people support him. so that is enough for him, that's all he cares about. he is legitimately a cult leader. he does not care about you as an individual, what you stand for, as long as what you stand for is him. >> michael cohen, you and i will talk next week about this book, okay? i can't tell you anything about it, i have to read it, you can't say anything about. next week, you will see something about it. i not only appreciate you being here, but this is your 28th wedding anniversary? >> yes it is. look, why, happy anniversary sweetheart, i'll be home in a

few minutes. only for you, ali. >> i apologize to michael cohen's wife for this, it was very meaningful to him being here with us. good to see you, i will see you next week, we will talk about your book. michael cohen's host of the mea culpa paul podcast, also author of two books, revenge and disloyal. revenge is how donald trump weaponize the department of justice against critics, available on october the 11th, and as i said, i will discuss it with you this week. that does it for me, thanks for watching velshi, catch me every saturday sunday morning, 8 am to 10 am eastern. don't forget villages available as a podcast, if you don't get the whole show, listen to it on the go, and in time. subscribe and listen to free, wherever you get your podcasts. stay right where you are, the sundays -- sunday show as jonathan capehart begins, right now. right now inside the. insurrection new details emerge as members of the oath keepers go on trial in the january six committee prepares to old possibly its last hearing. former committee staffer