michael is back. and he's more dangerous. maybe the only way he can die... is if i die too. [ screaming ] hi there everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. just over a month to go before the most consequential midterm election in our country's modern history because, well, democracy will be on the ballot this november, of course. a slate of candidates from one of the country's two major political parties has broken bad. it is still led by the disgraced twice impeached ex-president whose lies about the 2020 elections sit at the nexus of a domestic violent extremism

threat today. that faction is seeking to overturn the will of voters in future elections should they prevail in 2022. they made that point abundantly clear as if it was not already at back-to-back rallies over the weekend, headlined by the ex-president in two key battleground states. this election in 2024 they pledge to do that in arizona and nevada. here is what the republican nominee for secretary of state in nevada had to say. jim marchand. >> president trump and i lost an election in 2020 because of a rigged election. i've been working since november 4th, 2020 to expose what happened, and what i found out is horrifying. when i'm secretary of state of nevada we're going to fix it. when my coalition of secretary of state candidates around the country get elected, we're going to fix the whole country and president trump is going to be president again in 2024.

>> so that really happened. just a little fact-check here along the way, he lost because the voters weren't into either of you. those comments are confirmation of the five-alarm fire facing our democracy in november. according to nbc news, quote, along with arizona and michigan, nevada is one of key several battleground states where an election denier backed by donald trump is running for secretary of state. it's a position in most state that oversees elections. non-partisan groups monitoring races with election deniers warn that any of those kantds datsing could contribute to a robust effort to overturn the next president election. in a rally in arizona on sunday trump took the stage alongside a slate of candidates who appeared to be trying to two-step away from their belief and advocacy of everything that goes with the big lie. from new reporting in the arizona republic, the lineup of

republican candidates for office in arizona, all of whom have repeated trump's false claims that he won in 2020 offered sanitized messages that instead focused on public safety, the economy and attacks on opponents in the media. whitewashed messages completely underlined by the fact that they have already publicly embraced the ex-president who, according to the arizona republic -- wasn't ready to move forward as he rebeetdly claimed he won in 2020. donald trump took his election denialism even further, suggesting that the 2022 midterms could be rigged, calling on supporters to reject the results of midterm races if republican candidates move by saying this, quote, the vote counter is often times more

important than the candidate. only if you're cheating, it's a dangerous situation made more complicated by the fact that the future of our democracy is on the line in practically every race on the ballot all the way down to state legislative contests. "new york times," quote, 44% of republicans in crucial swing state legislatures try to overturn the results of the 2020 presidential election. that's according to "new york times" analysis. more like-minded gop candidates on the ballot could soon join them in office. the future of elections in america and our democracy itself on the ballot in the midterms is where we start today. nbc news correspondent vaughn hillyard live from phoenix, ari berman, senior reporter for mother jones, happy to see you again, my friends. a.b. stoddard is here from real clear politics and our friend, former senator and msnbc political analyst claire

mccaskill. claire, have we been here before? the country has been in crisis. it's been in ugly political divisions and intense disagreements about matters of war and peace. have we been in a place before where there is such a divergence between what the truth is when it comes to our actual election integrity? >> no, we have not. we have not been in this place before. and the difference is that our country has taken for granted that the people who are monitoring' legs wanted to actually count votes rather than determine outcomes. it is only with trump who set this up months before november of 2016, set this up months before he was defeated in 2020, that somehow if he lost, he was cheating. now it's become foundational to their party. it's a huge, huge problem.

i remember back in the day, nicolle, when the united states used to send election monitors all over the world to watch and make sure elections were held fairly. if people don't show up and vote in november in these midterms, we will have to have other countries sending monitors to america to watch our votes. >> should we ask for that now? what has to happen for it to be worse? >> well, i think the problem, with these people get elected who are determined to change the outcome of the voters, and if they try to do that, it is the most serious crime that could occur in a democracy. so we're going to have to depend on the three branches of government. we're going to have to depend on people coming forward and coming the truth about what happened. what they didn't have this time, nicolle, was any evidence of election fraud. but if they get in there and try

to change the outcome, there will be evidence of election fraud. so i'm not trying to reassure anyone that everything is going to be okay because right now by my count we have six or seven states that are in a virtual tie. so this is all about who shows up. if you don't think this election is important, if you think you only need to show up to vote against donald trump, you're not paying attention. >> claire, i know you're on the phone all the time with your former colleagues and you're wired. take me through the races you're most concerned about, the states you're most concerned about turnout in. >> well, the ones that are really basically tied right now. we've got north carolina is tied. democrats need to realize that. north carolina is tied right now. ohio is virtually tied right now in the senate race. i think dewine is comfortable in the governor's race, but she's shown every once in a while an inability to stand up to trump. you've got arizona in a virtual

tie for many of the races that are very important statewide. nevada is a tie. i think pennsylvania -- way too many democrats thought that was over, that dr. oz was a joke. this is really a situation where people have to look at this as if -- if we have presidential turnout, nicolle, america is going to be fine. if we have typical midterm turnout, america is in trouble. >> a.b. stoddard, it is not hyperbole to say that the ideology espoused on the rally stages over the weekend literally word by word sits right at the fulcrum of a current domestic violent extremism threat warning that law enforcement put out. i think i have the text of it. this still sort of holds. i think the first one went out three weeks after the insurrection, but it's not been withdrawn. the threat hasn't gone away. it says this: information

suggests some idologically motivated violent extremisms with objections to the exercise of governmental authority and the presidential transition as well as other perceived grievances fueled by false narratives could continue to mobilize to incite or commit violence. that's what they've warned every police department in the united states about on january 27, 2021. here is what it says now. as the united states enters midterm election season this year, we assess that calls for violence at domestic violence extremists directed by democratic institution, political candidates, party offices, election events and election workers will likely increase. here we have a direct line. what the republican lies have done, they have endangered, quote, democratic institutions, election events and election workers. i know we're done asking where the republicans are, but do you

feel that the messaging is robust enough to lay any of what the department of homeland security and fbi are warning about at the feet of republicans who repeat those lies loudly and boldly on debate stages and rally stages? >> nicoll -- they feel voters want to hear -- >> a.b., i think we're going to fix -- we're having a hard time hearing you and we don't want to miss a word. we're going to fix your feed. >> ari, this is in the body of the threads you've pulled. between a lie and a current threat, do you think that's been conveyed? most people don't read these bulletins. but do you think that is

something people are aware of four weeks out from the election? >> no, i don't think so, nicolle. i think a lot of people feel like the january 6th insurrection was a one-off. it was an unprecedented event that will never happen again. but if you follow what the insurrectionists are saying, january 6th to them was a warmup. they view this as a training ground for future violent attacks to try to overthrow american democracy. on the one hand, we have violence becoming normalized in insurrectionist circles. we also have the threat of the insurrection broadening, that they're actually trying to institutionalize the insurrection. that's what all the election denialism is about. it's about the fact that the coup failed in 2020, so they're trying to do whatever they can to make sure the coup succeeds in 2024. instead of trying to illegally

overthrow an election. they're trying to do it legally by controlling who are the secretaries of state, who the state a.g.s are, who the governors are. instead of the elections being certified and then trying to overthrow them after the fact. they're just not going to certify them in the first place. that's going to make it a lot easier for them to overturn the election in the future. we're at a chilling moment in american democracy. the question is what kind of democracy are we going to be in 2022? that's really what's on the ballot. are we going to be the kind of democracy in which people who don't believe in free and fair elections take over the election system which isn't really a democracy at all, or are we going to be a democracy that believes in free and fair elections, that believes in counting votes, that believes in encouraging political participation. to me that's the stakes. it's not a democrat versus republican issue. it's what kind of democracy are we going to be at the end of the day issue that matters the most

in 2022. >> a.b., i hope we have you back. we know it will be lesser, it will be less than the quality of democracy we had in 2020, because they're not all going to lose. some of the election deniers are very likely to win. we'll go over to vaughn in a minute. they're not all going to win, but they're not all going to lose either. whatever we have, it will be a worse democracy than the democracy we lived in when the insurrection happened in january of 2021. >> there's no question. that's part of the problem. i think democracy are afraid to talk about this issue on the campaign trail. they really feel the voters want to hear about inflation or crime or abortion, and they're not really touching this as an issue. if a few of these people, these election deniers make it over the finish line, we are going to have an eroded, battered democracy. we are looking at pressure on the republican side for these people to cook the books if they

don't like the outcome in the next presidential election, so that all it would take is not a january 6th event in the congress, january 6th of 2025, but in a swing state a secretary of state or governor not certifying the outcome, throwing out batches of votes, creating a narrative of fraud. that's why the senate races, yes, they're close. the idea that kari lake is looking like she's finishing strong for the gubernatorial campaign in arizona and she's a flat-out election denier and that's secretary of state candidates in nevada and arizona are doing well, it's a five-alarm fire. we don't see people talking about it that are making it fair to voters. i think it's important that there be other people, president biden, president obama, some people that come out and talk about this directly with the voters, make sure voters understand what a secretary of state is. if the candidates don't want to talk about it themselves, democrats have to find somebody

to start educating voters about this now. >> vaughn, take us inside what's going on. a.b. stoddard mentioned kari lake. take us through the arizona races. >> reporter: i think a.b. hit it on the head there. if we get to the election night or day after and the election deniers have won these key races, whether here in arizona or the governor's race in wisconsin, we'll have to hit the fact that democrats didn't go toe to toe with these republicans running for office. just take the hobbs/lake race. the ads are on inflation and the economy, playing defense for the democrat here. what you don't see are campaign advertisements tieing kari lake to conspiracy theories, her calls to decertify the 2020 election, her links to donald trump. you do not see that. kari lake is a candidate literally called for her opponent, katie hobbs, to be arrested. that's the type of candidate

we're talking about. last night at the campaign rally in arizona, the man running for attorney general said he wants to see people in handcuffs. during the raleigh, mark fincham, he tweeted his christmas wish is for there to be arrests related to voter fraud. that's what we're talking about here. and yet the democrats have not gone toe to toe. you can look across the board here. they're trying to focus on issues outside of donald trump and the democrats issue at play. the issue here is i'm not confident that folks understand the direness of what we're talking about. this is an anecdote of the trump rally. a man came up to me, and he saw me with the camera crew. he said, sir, you seem like a nice enough fellow, but you need to leave, the media. if there is a civil war -- these are his words. if there's a civil war, the corporate media are going to be some of the first to go. i said what does that mean.

he said to die. this is the stakes of what we're talking about. looking at the moderating voices in the republican party, there is no jeff blake, no john mccain, martha mcsally. clint hickman, the chair of the maricopa board of supervisors, a man was arrested last week for threatening to hang him. he's not at these events despite being at the rally before the 2020 election and voting for donald trump. rusty bowers isn't there anymore. these events are a mechanism to try to overturn the elections and they've told us that specifically. i talked to mark fincham yesterday, is there any reason to believe the midterms will be free and fair, and he said he's not confident. they're laying it out there for all of us to hear. >> vaughn, i'm going to need you to say more. let me give you this -- do any of them think if they win the elections rigged, or are they rigged only if they lose?

>> let's use an example. kari lake was making claims in the days before her primary, her close primary, that there were irregularities and fraud. yet, of course, up to that night before the election we were still trying to ask her what examples or evidence does she have. to this date here, october 10th, kari lakes has still yet to provide any examples. she was there standing on stage next to donald trump as donald trump openly flirted, suggesting these midterm elections may not be fair and accurate. they're already setting the stage for what could lead to chaos in this election. there's the very real possibility these folks could outright win in those contested efforts on their be hafl may not even matter. >> i have to ask you one more question, vaughn, when they told you you'd be the first to be killed, the first to die, do you feel safe out there? >> reporter: i think the hardest part, nicolle, is at one point

in covering trump rallies and republican voters, i think i'm able to usually open up my heart and allow people to hear who i am and hear them out. this point in time folks don't want to get to know you. the time for i think war in the most literal of terms is right about now, and donald trump -- it used to be a laughing line about the members of the media were the enemies of the state or the democratic party was the opposition, but it's very real terms now. they take him very literally, more than ever before, and trying to engage with so many of these folks, it's a non-starter. this goes beyond qanon believers. this comes down to folks that are voters, that truly believe there's an effort to undermine the democracy, not the democracy we're talking about, but the effort to undermine the democracy by putting joe biden and the likes of these democrats into office. it's a completely warped reality one that you can't, even if you

tried to have a conversation with so many of these folks, you can't get to a place of rltd because they're not living in it. >> ari berman, vaughn's reporting and his experience as an eyewitness to this and the evolution of how he sees this is so powerful. in the one sense it after firnls we on the show, we've been covering the attacks of democracy before trump lost because he started asking liss voters to vote twice. he started seeking to commit voter fraud before he lost. he started talking about the election being rigged in the summer before he lost. he started talking about not leaving office on a debate stage. the attacks on democracy -- it's really not a trump story anymore. it's about one of the two parties. like i said at the part, breaking bad, being an anti-democratic force. if this had happened in a country, we'd put it on the watch list a country with

anti-democratic powers rising. it would go on a list. the calls of the country leaders on that rising authoritarian, anti-democratic practices would have stern conversations with whoever the american president is at the time. that's all over. we're now the country with a sick democracy and with one of the two political parties in this country, not just lush ching toward authoritarianism, but running on it. you've been writing stories on it for three years. what is the issue in terms of putting this front and center before the american people and having this conversation in real terms? >> well, i think that the central story of american politics right now is the struggle to preserve american democracy as we've known it for hundreds of years. i'm not sure the issue is being covered that way. i'm not sure the issue of democracy is being covered at all sometimes, but when it is covered, it's often covered through a partisan lens. it's often covered through a

political lens as opposed to the facts that the institutions we've taken for granted for so long are being subverted from within. people are running very openly, as vaughn talked about, overthrowing american democracy. that's the central campaign issue of the republican party in 2022 is overthrowing american democracy. instead of trying to do it illegally, trying to do it legally. it really is shocking to me that democrats aren't talking more about the issue. it's true, some democrats are talking about it. i don't want to paint so broad of a brush because there are democrats very, very focused on american democracy and they're talking about it every single day. the fact that it's not resonating in places like arizona or nevada, the fact that democratic secretary of state candidates are being outraised by insurrectionist republicans in arizona, nevada and other states is incredibly alarming.

the fact you hear them saying we need to focus on these races now? why weren't they focused on this a year ago when it was obvious this plan was in motion. it's very obvious what was happening. you had first donald trump spread lies about the election. then he tried to overthrow the election. then they tried to climate change the voting laws to make it easy for the insurrectionists to win. now the insurrectionists are actually running to win. we've seen over and over democrats being degraded systematically. we're reaching a point where it's becoming too late to do anything about it. if indeed some of these people win in 2022, some of these election deniers win in 2022, it's going to be very difficult if not impossible to have a fair election in these states in 2022. >> it's incumbent on republican strategists who know exactly how to talk to republican voters to come out of the woodwork and write their daisy ad or nuclear ad and say if you vote for the election deniers which is i

think 42% of the republican candidates on the ballot in this country in november, you'll be voting against your democracy. you'll be voting against your vote counting on issues of the economy, abortion, health care, schools, everything. if you lose your democracy, you lose everything. i need all of you to stick around. i need to sneak in a quick break. we'll have more on this conversation, how this fight for democracy is taking center stage all through the country in these midterms. we'll show you one democratic's take on how to take on ron "qanon" johnson. also, what the president asked the national archives to give him as a trade, a document swap for turning over some of the things he stole from the white house. and what we know this afternoon about one of his lawyers who had claimed on his behalf everything was returned. the latest on how federal investigators appear to be moving quickly on the front.

later in the program, republicans doing more fear mongering about crime, the bottom of the barrel on another issue, too, the replacement theory, racism, showing just how far down to the bottom of the swamp they have gone in a desperate and dangerous attempt to cling to power. all those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. ♪ what will you change? ♪ will you make something better? ♪ will you create something entirely new? ♪ our dell technologies advisors provide you with the tools and expertise you need to do incredible things. because we believe there's an innovator in all of us.

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let me see if we have that sound. >> the race has gotten a little tighter as republicans have started to push more money, especially attacking you on things like crime. what do you say in response to their attack? >> the response to it is pretty rich considering that ron johnson supported an insurrection. we should also remember ron johnson tried to send fake electors to the vice president. he was fortunately rejected in that effort, but that's how far he'll go to prove a point. if the election result isn't what he wants, he'll look every single voter in the eye in this state and say your vote doesn't matter. >> there's one. a.b. stoddard, we're glad to highlight that here. it's far from the closing message in these midterms. >> right. this is just again -- vaughn is

right, it's probably too late in the cycle for people to be highlighting the fact that this is something that they're bluntly outrightly promising to do. kari lake has been in arizonans' living room. she's a tv anchor. there are going to be people who vote for senator mark kelly and kari lake for governor. this is not been part of the conversation. i think they have to see it with the weeks that they have left in the campaign as the emergency that it is and talk more about -- again, if it's not the candidates, it has to be surrogates, they have to find a way to highlight the threats that these election liars are literally promising to carry out. we're going to be in a constitutional crisis. i'm sure they, if they lose, will deny that they lost and they will claim these elections are rigged in 2022.

but if they prevail, if they succeed, we could be in a constitutional crisis in 2024. the time to talk about it is now and not after the election or in 2023 or 2024. >> i guess, a.b., my concern is we're not having any of these conversations. say they lose but don't concede. say it's close and they're not just watching it, we're watching it, too. there are all sorts of scenarios and it's already happened. i'm just concerned that we're expecting to go on election night, watch the races, they are running on destroying the see elections in which they're running. that's their message. that's what vaughn is covering. they're warning vaughn that the media will be the first to go if this turns to civil war. the civil war comes if they lose and their claims of victory are not heeded. looking at trump's 1 for 60 in the supreme court record with his legal challenges, they're

not likely to fare much better than he did. my question is why aren't we all having this conversation right now. >> we can sit here and hope that mitch mcconnell and others who hope to shake donald trump in the 2022 midterm elections come around and say after these elections your candidates stunk and they all lost, and when donald trump says these elections were rigged and they would have won if the democrats didn't cheat, they walk away from him once and for all and say he lost in 2020 and he backs losers and he's full of it. but i really can't be confident that they will, nicolle. it really, again, needs to be serious voices. i know president obama was going to be doing some down ballot campaigning for candidates like secretary of state. it was really, really important that this be translated to the voters that the secretary of state is responsible for poll worker training, all kinds of

processes that take place, that produce the outcome after elections. one that needs to be trusted and one that needs to be certified and verified. these positions are often more important than senator gubernatorial elections this cycle. i just don't hear the conversation, and i really hope that donors an activists and electeds, people who are campaign consultants try to make this the closing argument in the days and weeks they have left. >> the reason i started by asking if we've ever been here before, as a country we have to participate in it. if you have kids, if you have anything to do with an election, an election worker or news anchor and they want to know what happened. i think we have to have a conversation as a country that we might not know what happened. that is their point. they're not all running to win. they're running to sow discord in america.

it will change everything. we will wake up the morning after election day -- we might not call it election day in two years. we might call it election week. what we're watching, and because it's so slow, it's so slow, we don't cover it as a five-alarm fire, but it is. we are watching republicans not just destroying democracy in the dark, breaking into election offices and plugging stuff in. we're watching them do it from rally stages, debate stages. that's where they're doing it. the reason i ask you if we've been here before. do you think it requires a democracy commission? should president obama ask chris christie and ben ginsburg to man a democracy hotline the way people used to man other -- what should we do? >> well, it doesn't take a commission. it just takes republicans to have some character and integrity standing up to these

people who have decided that cheating is okay if it lets you win. what they're doing is cheating. they are actually committing a fraud on the american people, and they're convincing people -- what's really interesting about this, nicolle -- think about this. this has become a huge thing with no evidence. there is no evidence that there was fraud in the election. if there had been evidence, they wouldn't have lost every single court case. there was plenty of audits. there was plenty of review. all of it was done because in america, if you're going to accuse someone of a crime, there must be evidence. these guys don't need evidence, and that's why this kari lake -- i'm going to talk about her for just a second. she is scary stuff because she's talented at being telegenic.

donald trump better watch out. i know this is a painful memory for you. she is like sarah palin without a john mccain. i remember when sarah palin gave that speech, when she accepted the nomination at the convention, the hairs on the back of my neck stood up. i thought holy c-r-a-p, this woman can talk and be real and be vulnerable and people are going to like her. that's what this kari lake is doing. did you see her vacuuming the rug before donald trump got there? what kind of phony baloney is that? give me a break. she's drying to do all the stuff that is funny and plays to people that never get beyond the headline. that's the scariest kind of politician there is, and she's trouble. the people in arizona better get off the couch and get to voting in this election and realize she

is as bad as donald trump, in fact, worse, because she's got a shinier package. >> tragically, and mostly what i've learned from watching vaughn's reporting, that's what they like about herment vaughn hillyard, thank you. ari berman, equally amazing. a.b. stoddard, thank you very much. thank you all very much for having this conversation. it's not happening anywhere else. i'm grateful to have you here. claire sticks around. up next, the mar-a-lago document case is moving on. we're learning that the lawyer who falsely represented to the justice department that classified documents had all been returned when they had not spoke with federal investigators on friday. we'll bring you the latest on all of this next. don't go anywhere.

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check out angi.com today. angi... and done. there's incredible new reporting on how involved donald trump was in efforts to keep some of the national security documents with him, forever perhaps, if he had his way. and some of them at his private florida golf club. "the new york times" reported over the weekend that donald trump attempted to make a deal with those documents in his possession. he wanted fbi files related to his campaign's ties to russia. the times reported, quote, trump still determined to show he had been wronged by the fbi investigation into his 2016

campaign's ties to russia was angry with the national archives for its unwillingness to hand over a batch of sensitive documents that thought proved his claims. the ex-president telling a crowd in added this, quote, they should give me immediately back everything that they've taken from me because it's mine. it's mine. they took it from me in the rain. seconds later he claimed the, quote, radical left had planted the documents at mar-a-lago. unclear if the ones planted are dprifrpt the ones that are mine. trump's actions and conflicting narratives have also gotten his own lawyers into potentially a lot of hot water. christina bob, the trump attorney that signed a letter certifying all sensitive records in former president trump's possession had been returned to the government, she spoke to federal investigators friday

naming two other trump lawyers in the case. joining us, msnbc national security contributor mike schmitt and andrew weissmann is lear, former dodge prosecutor, senior mem or of robert mueller's special counsel investigation. claire is still here as well. mike, tell us through what you reported over the weekend. >> what we reported on was how in the year and a half in which the archives was asking for these documents back and the justice department then took over the asking in a much more forceful way, in that time trump went back to his old playbook. he entertained outlandish ideas like trying to negotiate the boxes, giving the boxes back for these documents about the russia investigation, that he wanted access to but it was not clear he had people around him who could handle classified materials, so the archives was

unable to give it to him. that's an outlandish idea that doesn't seem to be rooted or understand the sensitivities of the federal records laws. he pushed -- misled his lawyers, provided them with inaccurate information about what was in the boxes, what he knew about what was in the boxes and such. and then the lawyers, when trump got into trouble, trump tried to get the lawyers to take the actions, the obstructive actions that he, himself, did not want to take. this is a pattern that we know well, that dates back to the mueller investigation and something he did throughout his presidency, and the lawyers in the process, as you were saying, increased their own legal exposure and now find themselves, because they were trying to do what he wanted. >> i think you're the first person to report that he wanted -- this is the crossfire

hurricane investigation, this campaign. why would an ex-president want that? >> why would an ex-president want it? why would donald trump, i guess, want it. i think that he's been obsessed with russia. russia is a throughline that starts before he comes into office and it runs all the way through. it's an obsession he has. it is rooted in his decision to get rid of comey. it is rooted in his decision to try and even the playing field after the mueller investigation and get rudy giuliani to try and even things out for him by pushing the ukrainian government to do the investigations of his allies -- not his allies, his enemies that he wanted to be done. he -- it's the same -- he's still obsessed with it. he's still obsessed with it and trying to prove it. it seems like the biggest

obsession of the day is the election, obviously something he probably talks about more. but he is also obsessed with trying to unring the bell of the russia problems that he had. >> andrew weissmann, it's all those things, and i think from a counterintelligence perspective it's also standing in helsinki and saying "i believe him." it's everything we heard him say publicly and all the other ones we didn't hear him say that probably sue gordon and other intelligence community heard him. >> i look at this with my former prosecutor's hat on, and the reporting from mike and maggie haberman and the speech that you talked about that he gave over the weekend are really damning evidence, because the typical defense for somebody like donald

trump is what a ceo argues which is i didn't know the details, i don't have the knowledge or intent to have violated the law. meaning i didn't know what was at mar-a-lago. i didn't know the content of what was at mar-a-lago, and so i didn't have an intent to illegally take or retain these documents. that would be what a ceo would probably argue and is typically what we see in ceo cases. the trick is always how do you show that somebody like donald trump knew what was at mar-a-lago, and it wasn't just his lawyers or underlings who knew the details? well, that he's trying to engage in the art of the deal with respect to classified documents, and he's saying these documents were all mine, those are incredibly damning statements that go directly to knowledge

and intent, and you can be sure that the doj prosecutors are doing what i'm doing, which is listening to this going, this is making it that much easier to prove the only element that it could pose any real difficulty for the department of justice in bringing a case in bringing the mar-a-lago documents. i agree with you, there are all sorts of horrendous things when you take the big picture, that he's thinking of trading these documents and using them this way when they're national security documents. but from a criminal perspective, his statements are even more damning and are going to be i think much more harmful to him. >> anyone who has read the mueller report and know in the obstruction volume, the obstruction act is next to the criminal act. why not charge the crimes of obstruction now, today? might that not help you in

getting the classified documents back faster if you're already facing charges for criminal obstruction? >> one really good reason, nicolle, for that to be done is the reporting about the lawyer, alex cannon, who refused to sign a false certification supposedly that he was -- his arm was being twisted by people including donald trump, it's exactly analogous to what don mcgahn said happened to him as the white house counsel. so you have two really similar acts of obstruction f. you're the department, you kind of want those to work together so there is a reason to do both of those. there also is the issue that, if you don't charge that soon, something called the statute of limitations is going to run because you only have a certain amount of time to bring criminal

charges after the criminal act has occurred. but having said that, i don't think that the department is going to do that. they did not look like they were terribly interested in following up on in the mueller report when they took office. and so it's a great question. it could come in as potential evidence at a trial related to mar-a-lago, but i wouldn't hold your breath, as i think you probably know, on whether the department's going to include those charges. >> i held my breath for donald trump to be held accountable ever, i would be dead ten times over. we need to sneak in a break. i have a million more questions for andrew. don't go anywhere. for andrew don't go anywhere.

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we're back with mike, andrew and claire. i would ask all of you what happens next. and i guess for you, mike, your story, you report out sort of the three current lawyers are embroiled in the mar-a-lago obstructive -- or attempts to lie to the government. alex canning, christina bobb. it seems like others have been asked to get involved and help trump. what kind of legal fate are they facing and what role do they play now in terms of the criminal investigation itself? >> you're pointing out nbc reported that bobb had went in on friday. what i find interesting about bobb is that she has hired this lawyer named john lauro. and john lauro is a long-time

criminal defense lawyer. someone that the justice department knows well. and since she hired him you have not seen her out there. at least i haven't seen her. she's stopped talking. and the interesting thing about lauro is that this is someone who is not going to care what donald trump wants. and there's an example of this in what lauro has done before. almost 15 years ago he represented tim donaghy, the nba referee that got caught up in the gambling scandal. and he went to extraordinary lengths to try to prove these allegations donaghy had about cheating in the nba and game fixing. and he went up against the nba and he went up against the justice department and neither of them said it was true but he kept pushing it and pushing it and pushing it in the hopes of trying to get donaghy's sentence reduced. he didn't care about the nba. he didn't care about the fact that the justice department didn't want to go along with it. he tried to make this case to the judge. he ultimately failed in that. but in the process was willing

to burn everything down to protect his client. >> that's interesting, andrew weissmann. may have met his match not in the form of doj, in the form of one of his own former lawyers who he asked to lie for his defense attorneys. how does the doj sort of exploit that dynamic? >> well, it's always good when you actually have a real defense lawyer who's looking out for their own client and not keeping one eye on donald trump. we've seen the same thing with allen weisselberg. there are real lawyers. but with christina bobb, you know, she has a certification that it may not actually even be technically false. i think she really is going to escape criminal liability even though she may -- if you really looked very hard, it was false. because she said she only is reporting what she was told. and she very much could have been told exactly what she reported. and that's why right now all

eyes should be on corcoran. >> say more, andrew. >> corcoran because she is saying the person who told me the information i put in this certification is corcoran. and so i think that's the next person who doj turns to, is corcoran to say okay, what did you know and who if anyone told you that all the documents had been turned over? and that presumably at some point is going to get to donald trump. >> exactly. there aren't that many people around him. what you're both say is you don't have to go too far up these criminal defenses for the attorneys to get right smack dab to the orange-tinted man. mike schmitt, andrew weissmann, claire mccaskill, thank you all so much for today. up next for us, the dangerous racist rhetoric heard over the weekend on the campaign trail, and the silence from just about everyone we looked for in the gop. don't go anywhere. we will be right back. will be .

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michael is back. and he's more dangerous. maybe the only way he can die... is if i die too. [ screaming ] and his comments are about the most vicious, vile, repugnant, parochial, racist things that i've heard in a long, long time. this is how violence gets started against black people, as in the case in buffalo, against latino as in the case in uvalde, and people who simply are worshiping, as in the charleston church, because people take that, the sick ones, and they think they've got to do something to extend the senator's philosophy. i would hope that every elected official on both sides of the aisle condemn that.

he is a bigot, and until he says something different he will always be seen as a bigot. >> hi again, everyone. it's 5:00 in new york. once again rock bottom is calling and sadly it's time for those of us who cover rock bottom to make a choice. conscious decision to shine the light on some of the most despicable foul goings-on inside the gop at the very risk of amplifying these messages. the choice is to ignore what's happening, hope it goes away, dies down, look away, say nothing, and in doing so allow the ugliness to spread unremarked upon, unchallenged. today as a team examining those risks we chose option number one, to shine the light, to try our best to disinfect, to do our best to make clear that voters know what the gop stands for today and tomorrow and every day ahead of these midterm elections. because what we saw and heard over the weekend cannot be brushed under the rug. it can't be unsaid.

blatant, fragrant instances of racism. uttered out loud and on stages from the highest perches within the gop. you just heard democratic congressman kwesami mfume describing comments made by senator tommy tuberville. you remember him? trump was butt dooilg r. dialing other people trying to reach him during the insurrection. but i stray. he's from alabama. we're going to play the comments for you now. again, not to amplify them, never to amplify them, but to show you how republicans are increasingly saying the ugliest things in the country out loud and on stage. >> the democratic party, they have the majority, they could stop this crime today. they -- some people say, well, they're soft on crime. no, they're not soft on crime. they're pro crime. they want crime. they want crime because they want to take over what you've got. they want to control what you have. they want reparation because

they think the people that do the crime are owed that. [ bleep ]. they are not owed that. >> wrong on so many levels i cannot check my impulse to fact check. of course that's all wrong. and of course black americans statistically are the victims of the majority of crimes in america. and let's be be clear about who he's talking about. they. not just democrats. not the left. not the media. the context of tuberville's comments were reparations. this idea, this notion that black americans are owed reparations, money or benefits, in an effort to right centuries of racism. so when he says they, the people who do the crime, tuberville is making a racist comment about black americans from the podium of a rally. obviously it goes all the way to the top of the republican party. consider what happened a few weeks ago at a trump rally in north carolina.

we're not going to play that clip because we all have our limits and i think i understand yours. but my friend and colleague jonathan capehart described it in a powerful new piece. "surrounded by his adoring flock, trump bell lowed you know putin mentioned the n word. do you know what the n word is? plenty of people shouted the answer they thought trump was looking for because there is only one answer. hardly surprised by the response to his purposefully provocative question, trump jumped in and said no, no, no, it's the nuclear word. while such instances are hardly a surprise by now, their increasing lack of subtlety highlights just how far into the muck the gop is at the moment, while also underlining the stakes of the midterms, now less than a month away." it's where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends and we're happy they're here. eddie glaude. he's the chairman of the department of african american studies at princeton university. also an msnbc political analyst. maya wily is here, former assistant u.s. attorney, now president of the leadership conference on civil and human rights.

and erin haines is here, editor at large of the 19th, also an msnbc political contributor. eddie glaude, i'll start with you. i'm almost out of words. but what words should we be reaching for in this moment? >> how deeply troubled we are. the nature of the problem that we face. what senator tuberville did, and i think we need to make this connection really quickly, is that we've been talking about the horrors of the great replacement theory. but by invoking the language that they want to take -- what is it? "they want to take over what you've got. they want to control what you have." this is an adjacent argument to the replacement theory. but it's a very clumsy way of trying to engage in a dog whistle that turned out to be a foghorn. we need to understand the way in which race is being mobilized by the current gop, not only by tuberville and marjorie taylor greene but also by ron johnson

and what he's doing with mandela jones, what marco rubio is doing with val demings. that there is a relationship between the explicit racism of great replacement and the dog whistles that have defined the republican party's strategy for generations, for at least the last 40 years, nicolle. >> and maya, what in our politics cements the racism isn't always the racist who utters them. it's the reaction from everyone else in the republican party. and one of the ways that trump helped expedite the destruction of any sort of civilized political debate in america is in one of the two parties there's no self-policing. so here's -- i want to show you some of my colleague kristen welker's interview with a republican. but you know, the first answer should be you know, at its core those comments are racist, not my top priority is something

different but that's not what this is -- you know, the republicans should feel like they have issues they can contrast. but the fact that no one condemns racist comments as such is how it seeps into the entire body politic. and i want to show you an example of that. this is from "meet the press" yesterday. >> i wouldn't say it the same way but there is a problem in our country with crime. major cities have seen a 40% to 50% increase in violent crime. and the primary reason in my view is we have these far aloft prosecutors, county attorneys and mayors who are releasing violent criminals back on the street. >> but congressman -- >> my opponent -- >> congressman, there is a different way to say that. most people heard -- >> i would be more polite. >> -- those comments and felt -- not just polite but a lot of people heard those comments as being racist. >> yeah, i'm -- it's not the way i present things but we've got to be honest that we have a crime problem in our country -- >> but do you feel as though those comments cross a racial line, congressman?

do they cross a racial line? >> i'm not going to say he's being racist. i wouldn't use that language. be more polite. >> the republican position is i'd make the same argument, i'd just polish it up? this is why we are where we are. >> absolutely true. sadly and despicably, we have politicians who are either playing to what is essentially a kind of white fear stoking it, a sense that we've seen in statistics since 2011, big study in 2011 showed that many white people, far too many, were saying that white people were worse off between the 1950s through the 2000s, worse off because we got a black president. worse off because there was a lie told about the fact that that meant somehow an us versus them rather than a reckoning

with the kinds of solutions that makes sure all our boats will float, that we will all do well. and it's too often politicians who drive the rhetoric. and as we've seen with trumpism, actually lie and say things that are untrue like folks are trying to steal our elections who can't lawfully vote and they're too often the dog whistles turned foghorn as professor glaude said. it's really about immigrants of color. it's really about mexicans. it's really about people who are lawfully allowed to vote that we have literally heard some politicians say if we make it harder for black people to vote, if we make it harder for latinos to vote we win. but rather than saying how do we come together and recognize that together we actually build a better country, it's whenever we have prospered, that's what we have done, it's at the feet of civil rights icons and regular folks who said let's find ways to make it easier to vote, that we've got 2020 and some of the highest voter turnout we've ever

had. and the response becomes a lie. and so politicians too often drive us apart because they look at polling that tells them where the soft underbelly is, that if they poke it enough they can make it something ugly and a stench, as sotomayor would call it, a stench that becomes too hard to shake. this is not, i will say, our future if we don't let it be. and i think your pointing to it, nicolle, calling it out what it is, and actually challenging politicians to tell the truth as others are doing is so important to saving our democracy, which most americans according to a recent poll we've just done are deeply afraid that it's deeply in trouble. and they're right. >> thank you. for those comments. i feel like we have a lot more work to do, all of us together. so our friend jemele hill had a tweet that just tied my brain in knots, took me from being upset about a white republican male politician to being enraged.

so errin, i saved this for you. "a reminder that tommy tuberville was a collegiate coach for nearly 30 years during which he coached scores of black players. he made millions off their abilities. but here's what he really thinks about black folks." we can never normalize what is acceptable and celebrated and what republicans think will help them win on a rally stage, but we can also never sort of fail to push right below the surface and cover the hypocrisy of this man and the life he's lived. >> absolutely, nicolle. and guess what, here's another reminder. senator tuberville represents the state where john lewis was born, where the major battles of the civil rights movement were waged. this is the state that he represents. alabama. right? home of selma. home of montgomery. home of birmingham. places that made our country freer and fairer. but you know, look, i have covered the intersection of race

and politics for most of my career and i know that if we're in the home stretch of the election you can expect race and racism to take center stage in our politics. why? because it works. it works. i mean, i'm old enough to remember writing about the migrant caravans in 2018. the former president referring to s-hole countries. or candidates saying they'd happily sit at the front row of a lynching. the former president talking about american cities like chicago, philadelphia, my home town of atlanta, where they were calling for gop supporters to monitor elections because, you know, we know we can't trust certain voters in those places, places where we know that there are a lot of black voters, frankly. listen, yes, the former president cleared the way for what was once a dog whistle to be full-throated. but like you were saying, this is not just some suggestion in a shadow campaign ad. this is a sitting senator saying these things in his own words from a rally stage with his supporters cheering him on. and i don't want to lose sight of the fact that it was not just

that he was saying these things, he was being applauded for saying those things. so we know, yes, this is not about crime. this is not about reparations. this is about raising the specter of scary black people to a white electorate in the hope of framing democrats and particularly black folks as a threat to their way of life. and sadly, the bottom line is that while these comments are not new they come from a well-worn playbook that has often been very potent at the ballot box. we know who candidates like tommy tuberville are. the question just remains for this country who is this electorate? who does this electorate want to be? >> eddie, who is this electorate? who does this electorate want to be? >> i'm not sure. you know, i'm sitting here and i'm just simply -- i'm boiling with rage as i think about it. you know? here we are in 2022 having this conversation. we've been through our willie hortons. we've been through bill clinton standing in front of stone mountain with black prisoners behind him. we've been through all of that. we elected a black president. and then all of a sudden all

hell breaks loose. it feels as if some people in the country have lost their damn minds. and you know what's interesting too, nicolle? it's almost as if the republican party in places like georgia and across the nation, the only way that black people can participate in the political process is that they have to own us, they have to possess us. they have to find a black manchurian candidate like herschel walker, a walking stereotype who will do their bidding. i mean, damn, when are we going to finally, finally leave this behind and try to be an actual -- a democracy? and it's not just the tubervilles. i would say more politely. i don't need his politeness. we need to finally tell ourselves the damn truth about who we are. and people need to be courageous and call these folk out if we're going to be different. if you're not going to call him out, then you're one of them. it seems to me. and i say that as someone who has a child. he might be be a grown man now. but i'm tired of having to go through this generation after generation after generation, nicolle.

>> yeah. and i mean, maya, i think what's hard if you have a child, i have one too, is that it doesn't feel like -- you know, so much of what's beautiful about a child is they are born color blind. they are not -- they're born, you know, perfect. and what i think the sickness is embodied in the fact that most people with kids don't have cable news on but if they did they would have seen that. the sickness is not getting better. we're exposing them to -- and i know it's always been there. and i know i was part of the party that has had this in it for a long, long time. but it is so front and center. it is not just permitted. to errin's point, it is how they plan to win. what do we do about that? >> we do exactly what every single person right here right now is doing, which is call it what it is. it's blatant racism. it's ugly. it's deep. it's old.

it's old. even when we weren't seeing these kinds of up-front in your face comments as we've seen in the past weeks and since 2016, we did see them before. and that's what errin said. that's what eddie's referring to. and that's what you're pointing to, nicolle. and here's the then. and i don't want us to lose this. you know, part of why it's becoming so vocal, part of why trumpism is such an ism for far too many americans but still only roughly a third, is because the vast majority of americans are rejecting it. it's why we see gerrymandering. it's why we've seen so many states that are controlled by one party say how do we draw the maps to make sure in places like alabama even where the fastest-growing population in the state is black where we actually saw 90,000 black people

increase population since the 2010 decennial and yet get denied another black majority district. and watching this argument in the supreme court. but we're watching this happen because our numbers are going, because as not just black people but as people of color that we are becoming a nation that does not have any one single racial majority. and the fear of a pluralist society is one that is held still by a too powerful few. but if we acknowledge it, that it's few and that the vast majority of us still don't abide, what we have to do is pay attention that it matters when we show up and that it's an active resistance to vote, it's an act of resistance to say that you have the right to get that ballot and drop it in the mail if you want, and there shouldn't be a lie that says somehow that's more dangerous or that people of color are going to steal an election. it is the fact that we've seen

and been able to build coalitions that are multiracial. i lead one. 240 groups strong. and we're jewish and we're muslim and we're christian. we come from every state and we look like everybody. and what i'll tell you right now is what we all have to hold in these moments of empowered hate, racism, misogyny, frankly fear of people who are lgbtq, it's happening for so many of our communities, that this is because we are powerful. and if we call ourselves to exactly what you're calling us to, nicolle, if all of us say we are the majority and together, together what we form is a more perfect union and anybody doesn't want part of that, anybody who wants to call out racism, anyone that wants to call out sexism or any of the other ugliness that we're seeing, anyone that wants to hold power by pushing lies is frankly not working to save the

democracy that 3/4 of this nation is desperate to save. >> oh, wow. that was one for the history books, maya, and the only person that could speak after you is errin. errin, i want to pull this back to the policy agenda that has also been pushed in broad daylight. we've covered it here. we covered it ad gnaws yam. actually, democrats called me and asked me to stop covering it so much, and that was voting rights legislation. because the policy that goes with the stated racist racist remarks from the podium is voter suppression. it was very, very thinly veiled. they like put a little bit of gauze on top of it. it was predicated on the big lie. and i've been covering it long enough to remember when there were 19 laws being pushed in about two dozen states. there are now i think 48 states looking at voter suppression laws. i believe 100 have passed. there was no fraud. so voter integrity is b.s., as

bill barr would say. but they have made it harder not for random parts of those states to vote, not for close your eyes and, you know -- they've made it harder for people of color to vote on purpose. how do you unring that bell? >> that's exactly it, nicolle. the thing about a racist playbook is yes, while it does mobilize and galvanize one side it also has the potential to mobilize and galvanize the other side in an effort to reject that racism. the idea of one person, one vote is so central to -- or has been so central to who we are as a country that there is frankly one party in this country that sees the idea of one person one vote as a threat to them continuing to hold power. and so yes, for americans we see in poll after poll americans who are concerned about a threat to democracy tying and

understanding the relationship to democracy when it is working, when it is expanded to include more of us, not fewer of us, is able to participate, that is the thing that is frankly a check on the racism that we see in our politics because you have voters who are able to raise their voices, who are able to say no, this is not who we are, this is not who we want to be, this is not what democracy is supposed to look like if we are indeed, as maya said, again, to get to a more perfect union in this country. >> thanks doesn't begin to express what i feel. eddie glaude, maya wily, errin hayes, thank you so much for starting us off today. when we come back, the republican who famously plucked out the red and pink starbursts for a twice impeached ex-president appears willing to say and do anything and everything on the menu to protect his dear leader.

in a newly obtained recording kevin mccarthy tells officers michael fanone, harry dunn, and the mother of slain officer brian sicknick that trump had no idea that it was his supporters attacking the u.s. capitol on january 6th. it's revisionist history. it's cynical lying. we'll play it for you. later in the hour massive air strikes in kyiv and across ukraine as russia retaliates against the ukraiian people for another big strategic victory. vladimir putin saying the new strikes are revenge for this explosion on ai bridge connecting crimea to russia, the key supply line for moscow's military. we'll check in once again with our friend igor novikov in ukraine. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere.

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the president bears responsibility for wednesday's attack on congress by mob rioters. he should have immediately denounced the mob when he saw what was unfolding. >> i've had it with this guy. what he did is unacceptable. the only discussion i would have with him is that i think this will pass, and it would be my recommendation you should resign. >> i've been very clear to the president. he bears responsibilities for his words and actions. no if, ands or buts. >> isn't that special? that brave and genuine kevin mccarthy seemed after the deadly insurrection for about a week. since then we've learned, we've watched how strong the ex-president's actual grip on him is and how quickly trump's

hold on him was restored even after he said all those things in public, in a mask, and in private in recordings. mere months after declaring his outrage at the ex-president's quote, again, kevin mccarthy's word, responsibility for the violence on january 6th kevin mccarthy defended trump's inaction to the most incredible group of people. it was disgraceful, frankly. nbc news has obtained audio of a private meeting last summer in june between mccarthy and officers michael fanone and harry dunn. they experienced the unimaginable, defending the u.s. capitol on january 6th. the mother of slain officer brian sicknick was also there. mccarthy told them simply he didn't know, trump had no idea who was doing it and what was happening at the capitol. wasn't watching tv. remember mccarthy's desperate call urging trump to call off the -- >> he's watching television.

he's watching it with his family. i mean, what the hell kind of man is this? i'm sorry. >> when i called him, he wasn't watching tv. he wasn't with his family. >> he knew what was going on. he knows this he were fighting for hours and hours and hours. >> i'm just telling you from my phone call i don't know that he did know that at that point. >> literally all he does is watch tv. this is all trump does and did. officer fanone of course was beaten, tased, attacked repeatedly on january 6th protecting kevin mccarthy among others. he suffered a heart attack. he slammed mccarthy for his lack of leadership and inaction. >> you've got a platform to call out the b.s. the president's statements that day were b.s. saying -- you know, you were on the phone with him. while you were on the phone with him, i was getting the [ bleep ] kicked out of me. almost losing my life. the way that he's saying this is what happens when you steal an election, go home, i love you. what the [ bleep ] is that?

that came from the president of the united states. >> joining us, co-founder of punchbowl news jake sherman and former republican congressman david jolly, both msnbc contributors. so officer fanone has been a powerful voice cutting through the b.s. of the lies because of his testimony about what he endured that day. it was actually the first public hearing of the 1-6 committee. and what's amazing, jake sherman, is that he can't be -- he and harry dunn and office -- they can't exist in these lies. how do they co-exist, how do you all co-exist at the u.s. capitol? >> co-exist in the sense -- i mean, listen, i think it's obviously traumatic, nicolle, from a lot of perspectives. i want to just address this mccarthy thing because it's -- the thing that's interesting to me, obviously it's complete nonsense, right? the president knew well according to like the 30,000 books that have been written

about this episode and the january 6th committee. we just know for a fact that he knew. now, is it possible he was telling mccarthy that he didn't believe they were his people? yeah, i guess that's possible. but mccarthy obviously knew better and it seems like he was doing whatever he could to get through that moment with as little friction as humanly possible, as david could also indicate. i mean, he does with what a lot of politicians including mccarthy do -- they say what they need to say to get through situations, whether it's true or not. i mean, listen, nicolle -- >> can i stop you there? what is -- i mean, they say what they need to say to get through situations. where does that leave us in your opinion? >> it leaves us -- that's a really good question. that was what i was about to get into. we're 29 days ahead of the november election. if you are a bear on republicans, you believe at least they have a 50% to 60%

chance of taking back the house. and mccarthy in that situation would almost definitely be speaker. and i think the spotlight is obviously going to come on mccarthy a lot more in the weeks and months after the election when we as a country i think, when the broader american public needs to understand who the third -- the person third in line to the president of the united states is. i expect that that kind of coverage will start soon. a lot of people have written a lot of words about kevin mccarthy, but i think broadly the american people don't really know who he is. and i think that his story around january 6th will be something that people zoom into. >> here's michael fanone's story on january 6th. for you, david jolly. >> i was grabbed, beaten, tased, all while being called a traitor to my country. i was at risk of being stripped of and killed with my own firearm.

as i heard chants of "kill him with his own gun." i could still hear those words in my head today. >> i'm not going to play it, but here's what donald trump said about that. about fanone being grabbed, beaten, tased, all while being called a traitor to my country, with his supporters chanting "kill him, cole him with his own gun." here's what trump said about that. "you know the biggest crowd i've ever seen? january 6. and you never hear that. it was the biggest. and they were there largely to protest a corrupt and rigged and stolen election. the biggest crowd and you never hear that. you see so very few pictures about it. but they're there. it was a bleep bleep insurrection, david jolly. and we've got lots of pictures. they're his supporters maiming cops. what? >> and you know who had a glimpse into the real estate that officer fanone and his colleagues were facing in that moment? the entire country.

we all watched this live. and you could see the violence playing out. whether you were inside the halls or just seeing camera footage of those storming the capitol. donald trump knew it. kevin mccarthy knew it. everybody knew it. and nicolle, occasionally, very rarely does the country get to see the raw smarm of kevin mccarthy, someone who very likely -- >> that's great. >> -- might be the next speaker of the house. this is one of those moments. look, if the truth does not fit his political interests he denies the truth, he covers it up, he lies. and you see the smarm start to come out. we've seen it it privately. rarely do you get introduced to it. look, what i would expect is if kevin mccarthy's pushed on this he'll bristle, he'll blame democrats, he'll name check nancy pelosi and probably barack obama because it's currency for him. he'll blame check -- or name check joe biden. he'll go on hannity for cover. and then he'll make sure all is good with donald trump. but the sickening part i think is what you're getting at with the question. the context of this was during an insurrection of the u.s.

capitol when officers who were there to defend kevin mccarthy himself were being beaten and kevin mccarthy did not have the audacity nor the courage nor the integrity to actually be honest with officer fanone and his colleagues. >> let me play some more of those new recordings from the conversation with fanone and mccarthy. >> will you commit to doing any of those things that we talked about today? denouncing andrew clyde, denouncing the fbi baseless claims, denouncing the 21 republicans -- go on television and say it's wrong. what they did was wrong. >> you never hear me say i disagree with what they say. i don't believe that. i don't say that. >> you'll never hear me disagree with what they said. they said it was a tourist event. kevin mccarthy said something different. i mean, honestly, if you're an insurrectionist don't you stay mad about the first things kevin

mccarthy said, david jolly? >> you do. again, this is just perfect kevin mccarthy. you could hear him struggle. he knew the right answer but he wouldn't give it. he knew the calling of history, frankly, was to denounce what happened and to get the back of the officers who had his back on january 6th. but he couldn't bring himself to do it because as jake says it's well known that his singular desire, every move he makes, is about his becoming speaker of the house. kevin mccarthy's become a bit of a caricature of himself. he's even laughed at by his friends and colleagues and those on k street who know that everything he does is an act so that he can become speaker of the house. the problem is in this moment, on this issue, it's shameful and it should be called such. >> i mean, jake, i want to understand something that might seem small but it feels really big. picking out the starburst flavors that trump didn't like is such a weak puny act. does mccarthy have any

humiliation of being emasculated and minimized to the starburst flavor sorter for trump, or is he all good with all of it? >> since i've never separated starburst flavors in my life-i couldn't talk about what he was thinking. but let me just give you a little insight into how mccarthy views trump. and again, i feel this is my disclaimer, this is not my view, this is mccarthy's view and mccarthy's team's view. he felt like in his quest to become the speaker, to win back the house majority, he needed to have trump on his side and not mess with the candidates he wanted to get through primaries. and he felt like the way to make sure that would happen was to stay good with trump and not call him out like even mcconnell has at many points in the last couple years. and if you look and if you talk to people who are close to mccarthy, what they'll say is look, mcconnell got kind of overrun by past senate candidates who were endorsed by

trump and mccarthy has not. and house republicans have not. this is how they view the relationship with trump, rightly or wrongly, morally or immorally. and i think that's important to keep in mind when thinking about what mccarthy thinks about trump and how he acts around trump. it's all about, everything he does, 250 nights a year on the road, raising all this money, it's all about what david said, that singular goal of winning back the majority and becoming house speaker, something that's eluded him since 2015 when he had to drop out of the race. >> jake, is he positive that if republicans win the house that he's the speaker? and are you? >> no. no one's positive. it's something i spend a lot of time thinking about and reporting about. it will depend how large his majority is. there are some early signs that are good for mccarthy, which is there's no one organizing a single candidate against him. he has good -- it used to be that it was the tea party versus john boehner, the right versus paul ryan.

now the whole conference is far to the right. there are no david jollys left in the house of representatives. the entire conference is on the right side of the party. mccarthy's gotten good with them. if you saw, nicolle, a lot of people pointed this out to me, when they rolled out their agenda, who was there but marjorie taylor greene in a prominent position? that is something worth considering. that is where the conference is. and that all said, if he has a night where they only have a ten-seat majority in the house i don't know that he would become speaker. i would still bet that he would. although my confidence level on that is not as high as it would be if he had, you know, a 15 to 18 to 20-seat majority. >> more time to sort starbursts if it doesn't work out. jake sherman, dave jolly, thank you so much. shifting gears completely for us, ukraine is enduring the biggest russian missile assault in months. the the strikes on multiple cities and civilian targets including in the capital city of kyiv. vladimir putin is calling it revenge for an explosion that

took out a critical and symbolic bridge that connected crimea with russia. we'll check back in with our friend igor novikov who's been able to survey some of the damage today. stay with us. survey some of the damage today stay with us will you make something better? create something new? our dell technologies advisors can provide you with the tools and expertise you need to bring out the innovator in you.

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from our place. in the kind of attack not seen since the earliest days of the war russia launched blistering missile strikes all across ukraine today, hitting the capital city of kyiv along

with lviv in the west and kharkiv in the northeast among others. the missiles struck critical infrastructure and energy facilities as well as civilian targets. across the country at least 11 people have died and at least 64 people have been injured in these attacks, according to the state emergency service of ukraine. nbc news has not yet been able to verify these numbers. russian president vladimir putin announced the massive strike in a televised address to his nation, labeling it revenge for what he called a terrorist attack this weekend in crimea. where on saturday a massive truck bomb explosion destroyed parts of the kerch bridge in crimea that connects the annexed land to the mainland of russia, dealing a major blow to the kremlin's resupplying efforts and the psychology of the war, especially putin's ego. while kyiv has not yet claimed responsibility for the attack, putin issued another warning to kyiv and the world saying this -- "if attempts to carry out terrorist attacks on our territory continue, russia's responses will be tough and will correspond in scale to the level

of threats posed to russia. no one should have any doubts about this." joining us, our friend igor novikov, former adviser to ukraine's president zelenskyy. ben rhodes is also here, former deputy national security adviser to president obama, now anntrib. igor, we talked to you i think it was thursday or friday, and so much has transpired. take me through the attack on the bridge, the retaliation. i know you have been touring the damage in kyiv. tell us about it. >> well, first of all, yeah, there's major deja vu to february. so today was the first morning i think since like late march or april when i actually woke up to a massive explosion. then there was another one. and kind of a similar sense of like semi-panic that ended really quickly because you know, people just realized what was happening and just kind of went on with it. but yeah, this is the first time putin is hitting central kyiv.

notice he hasn't hit a single military target. he hasn't even attempted a single military target. he's hit a playground, a busy intersection in central kyiv, and he attempted hitting a famous glass pedestrian bridge in central kyiv. missed all those targets. and basically this was a terror attack. i mean, that's all i can say about this. kyiv is defiant. ukraine is defiant. the damage to energy infrastructure led to us actually losing power and internet for some time, but most of that has been restored. and kyiv definitely. in lviv the mayor said 99% of power has been restored. i think that yeah, this was just a retaliation from a madman. that's the best way to describe it. >> and can you explain to our viewers why the destruction of the bridge was such a humiliating event for putin? >> well, that bridge is a symbol

of, you know, his hegemony, his greatness in the world. he's basically annexed territory and then connected it via land bridge to -- via a massive bridge, the longest bridge in europe as he claims, to russia. and that bridge seemed safe and untouchable, and yet it exploded and nobody knows why. but you know, the damage has been quite substantial. but look, i mean, there's a very important lesson about today. how the west responds determines what happens next. and that's incredibly important here. if you show weakness, if you show fear, you know, he will be encouraged to continue those terror attacks. he's going to escalate. because he's desperate. he wants to force ukraine to negotiate. therefore, he's trying to create panic in the west as well. >> so president zelenskyy will address an emergency session, i believe of the g7 tomorrow. is that his message, and what is it that ukraine wants and needs from the west now that -- i

don't know if escalation is the right word. but now that this intenity of attacks and targeting of civilian targets is under way, a campaign of terrorism by vladimir putin? >> well, we need missile defense. we need defensive equipment to actually end the war and recapture our territory. and we need to rebuild ukraine and restore economy. i mean, basically take everything back to square one. back to 1991. and become a whole country again. and a successful country. so anything that takes us closer to that point is what we need, basically. and that's what the west needs because, you know, ukraine loses the west, loses to a dictator. by the way, i've just been told there are also massive explosions in eastern uk rainl happening like literally now. in slovyansk and krematorsk. by the way, another important one i need to stress today is zaporizhzhia. that city in eastern ukraine right now is being destroyed the same way as mariupol was just a

few months back. basically another thing for the west to focus on would be to present zaporizhzhia from becoming another mariupol. that's the way putin works. it's scorched earth and then he moves in. >> ben rhodes, you've been literally in the room where these conversations happen. your reaction. >> well, i mean, i think it reinforces how much putin knows no boundary or no limit to his destruction when it comes to civilians. i think what's really notable, nicolle, is that these actions today serve no military purpose. the russian military is not in any stronger position because he bombed a bunch of civilian targets. if you compare the actions of the ukrainian military and the russian military, the ukrainians are methodically taking strategic territory away from the russians, pushing them out of land that they've claimed, seeking to encircle their troops. and in response russia can't mount a viable military defense, so they're just lobbing missiles into ukrainian cities.

even the bridge was a military target. it's one of the main supply routes for russian forces in ukraine. so there was a logic. we still don't know obviously the particulars of what happened there. but there would be a logic to potentially targeting that bridge, a military logic. i think part don't know the particulars of what happened, but there would be a logic to targeting that bridge, the military logic. i think part of what the biden administration is doing in addition to sending military support to ukraine, they're also going to be messaging other countries around the world that have been fence sitters like china, india, countries that russia has to listen to. look, this is a time to get off the fence. particularly if you're worried about these nuclear threats. if you're worried about those threats you have to be clearly heard on this violence against civilians. >> we had some of the things that are public facing -- erdogan seem not that into putin these days, the meeting with xi

didn't go as putin would have liked it to two. what's happening behind the scenes in the conversations with the u.s. and the west? >> well, some of those are traditional supporter of putin, like the central asian governments that have been largely under russian influence. where the u.s. is seeking to appeal to them. you don't want to follow ukraine's fate. therefore you should be looking to build ties with other countries. i think for big ones like china and india, it's good to have bad body language, to make comments being concerned about the war. i think the administration would like to see them buying less russian oil and not back filling the impact of the sanctions, not sitting out votes at the united nation but voing against russian aggression at the united nations. and most particularly, providing warnings, people like xi jinping saying in no uncertain teams to vladimir putin, if you consider the use of a nuclear weapon, you're over in the international community, not just with the west, but with us.

thus far we have not seen china or india go that far. i think every time there's an event like today, the administration doubles downen its message to all those countries that, look, this is not a time to sit on the fence unless you want to normalize this conduct in the international community. >> i woke up to lots of people on my social media feed wanting to know if you were safe, so it is very good to hear all the information you have to impart on all of us. also very good to see you're safe. please, to you and your family, stay safe. >> thank you. >> thank you for being part of our conversation. quick break for us. we will be right back. don't go anywhere. don't go anywhere.

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very exciting rachel maddow news to share. my good frnd and colleague is out with an extraordinary new body of work. it's a new podcast called rachel maddow ultra without giving too much of it away, it's a historical thriller about a seditious plot to overthrow the government and undermine american democracy. sound familiar in this one took place during world war ii, and the members of congress who align with that all the tra right movement. it could not be more relevant. the first two episodes are available today. and rachel maddow herself in the flesh will be here tomorrow on deadline white house. we can't wait. another break for us. we'll be right back. we'll be ri.

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