good to be with you. republicans only need to gain one seat to make mitch mcconnell the majority leader again. they could get that seat in georgia or nevada or arizona. all tight races right now and all places where republicans are testing whether varying degrees of scandal matters to voters. from denying the 2020 election to this. >> he threatened to kill us and had us moved six times in six months running from his violence. showing up at his ex-wife's house armed with a gun and refusing to leave.

even making violent threats outside his son's children's party. six moves in six months. running from herschel walker's violence. >> we are live in georgia where walker is getting an assist from two big names in the republican party. democrats currently have the majority in the senate with the vp as tiebreaker so they need to hold on to everything or make a pick up. they are looking at three other tight races in pennsylvania, north carolina, or ohio. all places where democrats are hoping to show republicans that loyalty to donald trump is toxic. here's how tim ryan put it in his debate last night with j.d. vance. >> i have been a pain in the rear end to nancy pelosi and -- i will be a pain in the rear end to him, too. i'm for ohio. i don't kiss anyone's ass like him. ohio needs an ass kicker, not an

ass kisser. >> well rehearsed line as vance said. folks, the races are tight and there is no one out there who can safely predict what is going to happen. there are just too many different dynamics at play. there's crime, there's abortion, there's inflation. there's the threats to democracy. and all the investigations into donald trump who is still looming over everything. it means it's not just the senate that is up for grabs. but potentially the house. potentially. and in some cases, even some state legislatures, which democrats and republicans are pouring into. after all, the supreme court is about to hear a case which could give state legislatures near absolute power over federal elections. in other words, the ability to overturn the will of the people. we have "the new york times" reporter who is covering that extremely significant dynamic a little later on so do not go anywhere. again, with all this at play, no

one can safely predict what's going to happen, as i said. all we can do is read you the tea leaves. the educated tea leaves, which steve kornacki will walk us through in a moment, but first, let's get to our reporters on the ground. from carrollton, georgia, ali. in cleveland, ohio, jesse kirsch and here with me onset is steve kornacki. jesse, i'll begin with you. that debate was fiery and tim ryan got off that one good line. one of many some would say, but one line about you know, kissing you know whats. how did the rest of the debate play though because it wasn't one sided at all. >> no. and i should point out that j.d. vance threw that same concept back on congressman ryan saying he has sucked up to majority leader schumer in the senate and also sided with speaker nancy

pelosi despite the fact that tim ryan wants you to believe that he pushes back on them all the time and has portrayed himself as someone keeping the democratic establishment at arm's length and one of the other points that stuck out in this same thread was when vance was being questioned for having the likes of marjorie taylor greene and florida governor ron desantis campaigning with him, he said let's not focus on these kinds of questions. let's focus on something substantive as he put it, like the economy and the fact people can't afford groceries like they used to. so he's trying to bring that back to an economic thread. another issue that stood out to us and something you mentioned a few months ago is abortion. tim ryan reiterated that he believes he'd like to see a return of roe v. wade. here's what vance said, someone who on his campaign website on the issues page he wants to end

abortion. here's part of what he said. >> i've always believed in reasonable exceptions. this is a misrepresentation of my view. but let's hear it from me, not congressman ryan. i absolutely think the 10-year-old girl, the case we've heard a lot about, an incredibly tragic situation. i've got a 9-year-old baby girl at home. i cannot imagine what that's like for the girl, her family. god forbid something like that would happen. i have said repeatedly on the record that i think that girl should be able to get an abortion if she and her family so choose to do so. >> he also expressed openness to a limit on abortions federally like senator lindsey graham has proposed, but we were trying to get more clarity on what exceptions broadly he would be open to in allowing abortion and he did not come to the spin room after the debate. his surrogate came out instead and i asked him that question and he said he wasn't prepared to answer that on behalf of the

candidate. we reached out to the campaign, still trying to get clarity. both candidates said they would accept the results of the election. obviously something that is asked of candidates in these kinds of settings now and they also both leaned into more funding for police, concern over opioids and china. ultimately, i think a lot of this debate came down to both men trying to portray themselves as the more authentic ohioan. so wasn't so much about the policy, but i think there's this authenticity element here. both men trying to convince voters here in ohio that they will be more ohio than the other as much anything else. >> the abortion bite, we played part of it. there was also another part that got really personal where vance looked at ryan and said she only got raped because of policies that tim ryan supports. so trying to blame it all on tim ryan and the democrats for rape when he was answering that

question. the debates in ohio, what's the viewership like? do we have an indication and have you talked to people out there who said they were watching and ready to change their vote or still undecided? >> yeah. and by the way, not only was he making it personal with congressman ryan, he was making it about immigration. so you can see that's another hot button issue. specifically for republicans and so he was threading the abortion issue into the immigration debate as well when he brought that up last night. we've talked with voters including man we met yesterday who was undecided and said he recently became a u.s. citizen and was planning on voting based off of how the debate went. we just met a couple of people out on a walk on this beautiful afternoon and they said one of them said she was surprised the other said she watched the debate last night. it's not something everyone is tuning into as if it were the super bowl on a daily basis here. i think that might lend to the fact this is a state that has been trending more and more

republican. so you might think and we might have thought months back this might have been a done deal in a state that former president donald trump won handily both times he's run for president, but again, this is closer than we might have initially anticipated and that's backed up by the fact groups supported by mcconnell has dumped in close to $30 million here in advertising money and that's money that's not going to other races which you highlighted. >> a lot of races up for grabs now. again, just not yet late enough to tell where it's going to go. ali, you were in georgia. again, another tight race and herschel walker has been under the spotlight with a number of controversies. republicans are rallying around him including today. you have rick scott, you have tom cotton there. how are voters receiving those two high profile republicans? >> yeah, katy, you have rick

scott as you mentioned. tom cotton arriving in the next couple of seconds. you may see this bus roll up so apologies in advance if you won't be able to hear me. but this is really becoming a question of whether these gop heavy weights, whether their input and support will make a difference here. according to some of the republicans i've spoken with over the last hour or so, they made up their minds months ago. having these two here today is not moving the needle for them. they think that because this has made national news, having national republicans here can sort of clear the smoke out of the room and get this story out of the way for republicans to more focus on issues they say matter more. like the economy. high gas prices. inflation. but the point of these two republicans coming here today is really to make it known that throwing their support behind herschel walker means that other republicans should come forward and accept him despite all of these latest controversies,

allegations that herschel walker paid for an ex-girlfriend's abortion in 2009. saying he's not perfect, but the only and best option that republicans have and they know how critical this race is if they want to win back what is currently a 50/50 evenly divided senate. but like i said, according to republicans here today, they say they made up their minds months ago. they're here to show their support for walker, but democrats don't think any republicans will be turned off by these allegations and they don't think enough moderates will be enough to move the needle on this one. >> thank you. as you mentioned, the bus pulled up right behind you so that's going to get started. i wonder also if the appearance by those two republicans give voters some cover to say they're going to continue to support herschel walker. we will see. steve, as i said a moment ago,

we're reading the tea leaves. the educated tea leaves because of all the dynamics at play here. walk us through. explain to us what's going on. >> yeah, take a look here. battle for control of the senate. this is the battleground. the potential battleground. not all of these states shaping up as competitive as is maybe they initially looked like they might be, but the bottom line here is you see on this map five vulnerable or potentially vulnerable democratic-held seats. those are in blue. and five potentially vulnerable republican-held seats. those are in red. the senate at 50/50, kamala harris breaking the tie. republicans need a net gain of one. they need to flip one of those blue seats then hang on to theirs or flip two blue seats and only lose one of theirs. a net gain of one seat for republicans delivers them senate control. anything less than that, democrats will retain senate control. so you take a look at those states, talking about ohio,

georgia. both very closely watched. if you just take a look now at what the polling looks like, thises the average. starred in those democratic-held seats. this is where democrats are trying to play offense and flip seats. there's one state where republicans lead in the polling average and one democratic-held seat and that is in nevada. if that were to hold, that would be a gain there, a flip of one seat for the republicans. then the challenge for republicans would be to hold on to all of their seats and right now, you see that at least one republican-held seat, this is pennsylvania, pat toomey holds the seat. he's not running for re-election, and the democratic candidate, john fedderman leads over oz. if this were to hold and nothing were to change, the democrats

would get a net gain of a seat from the republican side and these two things would cancel each other out and you'd be right back where you started which is a 50/50 senate with the democrats getting the majority thanks to kamala harris' tiebreaker. the name of the game each party trying to play offense on the other's side. you mentioned ohio here. it's been this sneaky race. been sitting here the whole time. there's been an expectation because trump carried ohio by such a fairly wide margin in 2020. there's been an expectation that vance would pull away. if you stack these up, the democratic-held seats the democrats are going after. the second best shot at least on paper is in ohio. the question is hey, there have been some polling, there is no ohio. particularly in midwest states in the last few cycles where the polls have tended to overestimate democratic support relative to what happened on election day. still on paper, look at the

polling average, that's an opportunity for democrats to pick off a republican-held seat. when you look at georgia, again, on paper, very close race in 2020. the new poll this afternoon has walker within two points of warnock in this race and the one thing to mention on georgia is remember it's a runoff state. there's a libertarian runing in the race. if nobody gets to 50% in the election in november, it could go to a runoff. we could absolutely be in the same scenario we were two years ago where control of the senate is undecided in the november general election and comes down to a runoff in georgia. if it were to come to that, that would be december 6th. so we say election days become election week. there's also the possibility it's election month. >> steve, we talked about the dynamics out there and the trouble pollsters had with making sure they're getting accurate samples. how do you feel about all of these numbers now as somebody

who is so expert in this? >> to take this all with a grain of salt is very important and again, to remember certainly the recent history here. i don't need to tell anybody, the polls have been off in some big ways in recent elections, but there's a little bit of nuance to it i think because the polling misses have been wider in the midwest states. the rust belt. for instance, it was wisconsin in 2020. there was a poll within weeks of election day that had joe biden ahead by 17 points in wisconsin. joe biden ended up winning wisconsin by a fraction of a point. i believe the final polling average in wisconsin was close to biden by eight points. something in that vicinity. again, ended up being a fraction of a point. again, not the first time we saw that. we saw polls overestimate democratic support in 2016. we saw it in 2020. we saw it in the 2018 midterms in ohio. we saw the polling there

overestimate democratic support. the misses have been concentrated more in places like that with big states with large, white working class populations. i should say the polling in places like georgia and arizona in 2020 held up pretty well. so it wasn't a uniform you know, miss in the polling. it wasn't off by the same margin in every state. this is probably the biggest question mark i think that people have when you talk about the polling now in ohio because democrats would obviously love to win that race. they look at that polling. they look at that debate. hey, can tim ryan pull this out? but there's a big question mark hanging over that race if the polls in ohio are doing what they did in 2020 or doing what they did in 2018, they are overestimating the democratic support, failing to reach that trump friendly electorate in ohio and you get to the election and instead of vance being basically in a dead heat with

ryan, he wins it by six or seven point. we've seen republicans do that in ohio in recent elections. it's worth keeping that in mind. >> the lesson is to hold on to your hat between now and november. thank you very much. we have dasha burns coming up in a few minutes. she has done the first face-to-face sit-down with john fedderman who's running for senate in pennsylvania. he's going to talk about his health struggles and why he needs to use closed captioning to do the in-person interview. that's coming up in a few minutes. also, after missiles bombarded nearly every corner of ukraine, president zelenskyy is making a big ask of the g-7. what he wants, next. and you should have come to me, kevin mccarthy said. why did you go to the press? this is no way to thank me. what a new book is revealing about what leader mccarthy told other republicans as the authors

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president zelenskyy now says he will no longer negotiate with vladimir putin, speaking to an emergency meeting of the g7. he told leaders that putin quote has no future. in the past two days, russian missiles have hit nearly every city in ukraine, destroying infrastructure, knocking out power and killing at least 19. joining me from moscow is keir

simons. do you have any reaction to what president zelenskyy told the g7? >> reporter: i don't think there will be any reaction here in moscow because frankly i don't think there's any appetite for compromise on other side to be honest. just talking to people in the streets here, many russians will tell you that they feel like they have to keep fighting because otherwise russia will fall apart. there was from sergey lavrov, the foreign minister, some talk of so much negotiations, maybe where putin could meet with president biden at the g20 this year, but russian officials tell me they haven't decided whether president putin will go to that g20. turkey is involved in some potential negotiations. there's a lot of rhetoric but not much evidence and lavrov suggested this, not much evidence of real progress. i think that's because again, both sides do not see a chance

to negotiate right now. they're more interested in continuing to ratchet things up on the ground and in the air. >> they've ratcheted it up, certainly. they've hit a number of cities. critical infrastructure. they've hit playgrounds. killed a number of people. sent people underground. what's that doing to public opinion in russia? >> reporter: it's amazing you do see that here, that video on russian television. they showed over the past few days the video of that bridge from crimea to russia. the damage and explosion. there's a real difference now to months ago to what you can see on russian tv but i think the polls suggest, the one poll that you can have some faith in, suggests that support for president putin and for the what

russians call their special military operation is around 80% here. the thing that really impacts public opinion here, the draft. 300,000 russian men being called up to go to the front line and that is having an impact with russian families. it is still a small number compared with 140 million russians though. so again so far, the truth is on the streets of moscow with notable exceptions, most russians do still support the kremlin. >> any more talk about nuclear weapons? >> reporter: no and in fact, sergey lavrov today tried to reiterate that russia's posture with nuclear weapons is that they would only be used in retaliation, but i think there are real questions as to why a leader like president putin who you know, wears european clothes, european watch, who has a strange kind of affection for

europe would use, embark on a path that might actually lead to nuclear armageddon as president biden put it. so i think for now, the u.s. saying there's no evidence of any change in the russian posture. i think we can take comfort in that. >> keir, thank you very much in moscow. joining me now is former adviser to ukrainian president zelenskyy. always good to have you. so president zelenskyy told the g7 today that he will not negotiate with putin and said putin has no future. vladimir putin is currently in charge of russia. there is no sure sign that he's leaving anytime soon. if at all. does that mean that there's no negotiated peace settlement in the future for ukraine and russia? >> well, first of all, let me remind you a bit about russian political history. every single leader of russia in

recent memory has an upwards of 90% approval rating. until this one comes up on tv and he gets overthrown or dies. that's historically the case in russia. secondly, i believe first of all there is a mexican standoff between ukraine and russia because russia is desperate. russia needs to escalate to try and deescalate as well. ukraine is winning and ukrainian people currently are i would estimate 1% of what we can take and what we're willing to take to remain free. so i think this will continue for another few weeks and i think you know, we're going to see more dynamic, more developments in the run up to the g20 in november. >> if he's not going negotiate with putin, can you see russia designating someone else to negotiate with zelenskyy in the future for any sort of peace settlement and if not, where

does this end? >> well, look, first of all, there are certain you know, currents and movements deep within the walls of kremlin that are not obvious to the naked eye, but that are promising to the free world. i mean, that's the most i can say at the moment. secondly, look, we are relying on the international community to support us and you know, if there is a settlement, a way for ukraine to peacefully restore its territorial integrity, i'm sure we're going to find a way to negotiate. turkey's willing to do it. united arab emirates, the u.s. we'll find a way. just a question of willingness to negotiate and at the moment, russia is bombarding us with missiles. >> they certainly are. what is that doing to public opinion, to the population? do they feel terrorized or are they standing their ground? >> well, they feel incredibly terrorized. people are singing the ukrainian

national anthem sitting in bomb shelters yesterday. they've raised over $10 million for mu the army. we're trying to see positives in everything. russia has launched over 100 missiles at us over the last two day, but 80 of those came yesterday and only 30 i think today. so you know, they can't really keep up the intensity of bombardments and i'm pretty sure we can withstand way more than that. >> igor, always good to have you. thanks so much for joining us today. >> thank you. let's go now to dasha burns in pittsburgh. we teased your story a moment ago. your sit-down with john fetterman. this is the first face-to-face sit down he's done since his stroke. what was it like? how is his health? >> reporter: yeah, let's just set the stage here. i mean, we are four tuesdays

away from voters heading to the polls here. some folks have already submitted their mail-in ballots. i'm standing in front of the board of elections building where people are dropping off their ballots. and this is the first time that john fetterman has sat down in person for an interview with a journalist since his stroke. now, fetterman has always been an unconventional candidate, but this is a particularly unconventional interview. i sat down with him as his home in may before the stroke. this was very different, including literally what the senate looked like. you'll hear him talk in a moment as i preview our conversation about needing closed captioning for this interview. we had a monitor set up so he could read my questions because he still has lingering auditory processing issues as a result of the stroke, which means he has a hard time understanding what he's hearing. now once he reads the question, he's able to understand.

you'll hear he also still has some problems, some challenges with speech. i'll say that just in some of the small talk prior to the interview before the closed captioning was up and running, it did seem that he had a hard time understanding our conversations and i'll just let you take a listen to some of what we talked about here. >> you've been on this road of recovery. i'm sure it hasn't been easy. this is a serious health condition. this is a serious health issue that you experienced. what has that recovery process been like? how has it changed your day-to-day experience? >> it's everything, it changes everything. everything about it has changed. basically having a conversation with your wife to having a conversation with your children. just, you know, things, especially early after the stroke. the ability to really understand

what exactly i'm being heard, but it gets much, much better where i take in a lot. but to be precise, i use captioning. that's the major challenge. every now and then i'll miss a word, every now and then, or sometimes i'll mush two words together. as long as i have captioning, i'm able to understand exactly what's being asked, but even after the stroke, immediately after that, i was able to read everything and i haven't lost any memories or anything like that. it's just really the lingering issue that i have. >> i know before this, you've admitted you hadn't really thought about your health much. you hadn't taken great care of yourself. what's it like now for you? is there some frustration in having to face this every day? >> it's not frustration. it's just a challenge. actually. and i always thought i was

pretty em pathetic. that's an example of the stroke. but now after having that stroke, i really understand you know, much more kind of the challenges that americans have day in and day out. >> reporter: what you saw and heard there, the auditory processing challenges, the speech challenges. i've spoken with stroke experts. they say folks can fully recover from that, but the caveat every expert gives is that they can't fully assess a patient without details on their health records. without that information that the campaign has yet to disclose. we've asked multiple times for medical records, for interviews with someone from his medical team. those requests have been denied to nbc news and other outlets that have requested this as well. you'll hear us pressing him about that in our interview, which you can watch on nightly news tonight. we also talked to him about abortion, crime, inflation.

so you can catch more of that on nightly news tonight and the "today" show tomorrow. >> i'm curious. the polls have tightened in pennsylvania. what is the fetterman campaign chalk that up to? >> reporter: well, they say look, his opponent and the republican party have poured millions of dollars into attack ads. if you turn on the tv here in pennsylvania, you'll see an attack ad on fetterman, but when i talk to voters, some of those ads are starting to take hold. especially on the issue of crime. it's actually not fetterman's health that gets brought up first by voters, but rather the crime issue. whether they're democrats or republicans, voters are concerned about public safety and that's really what his opponent, oz, has been hammering him on as soft on crime. fetterman pushed back on that and you can hear more of that conversation tonight. >> dasha, thank you so much. as she said, you can catch more of that interview with john fetterman tonight on nightly

news at 6:30 eastern. and in the days that followed the january 6th insurrection, republican congressman butler delivered a bombshell when she confirmed the details of a phone call between kevin mccarthy and then president trump. trump she said sided with the rioters over mccarthy. even when the violence at the capitol was at its worse. now, we are learning more about the fallout from herrera butler's admission. a new book by two "washington post" reporters says mccarthy rebuked herrera butler with such force that she cried. quote, you should have come to me, mccarthy said. why did you go to the press? this is no way to thank me. what did you want me to do? lie? herrera butler shot back. i did what i thought was right. this, the authors write, was just the start of what would become a gop wide campaign to

whitewash the details of what happened on january 6th in the aftermath of the second impeachment. mccarthy and herrera butler have both denied the details of that meeting in a statement to the authors. joining me now is "the washington post" reporter, jackie, also an msnbc contributor. this is not your book even though it is reporting by two of your colleagues. we keep getting a drip, drip, drip about what mccarthy said, how he felt in the days after the insurrection. the day of the insurrection. the months after. what are we learning from this new book and might it be damaging for them? >> yeah, katy, my colleagues and my former colleague have done a fantastic job of really getting in the room and getting these vivid details of what was happening in the republican party in the wake of january 6th and the steps that the minority leader, mccarthy, was taking to sort of corral his party back together and get things back on

track in the wake of an attack that was really spurred by the former president's efforts to overturn the results of the election. these details are especially startling because jamie herrera butler was viewed as a long time ally of the minority leader and someone who really didn't step out of line with the party line. but look, the minority leader's efforts to sort of whitewash what happened on january 6th had started a month prior to this when he went down to mar-a-lago and met with the former president, posed for a picture with him. both of them smiling. it was this seminal moment that congresswoman liz cheney has said was really the tipping point for the party to pivot away, to pivot back to trump and take the party in what she has viewed in the wrong direction after this attack that had a lot of republicans finally ready to walk away from this vice grip

that trump has had on the republican party. >> they're not walking away from him now though. they're bear hugging him. is there a sense, i've talked to you know, former very powerful republicans who are no longer you know, in congress any longer who say there's going to be a breaking point. they'll learn donald trump is toxic. they're going to start losing elections. is there a feeling if this next election doesn't go their way, that it might be time to start breaking away? i know these are all hypotheticals and it's very hard to predict, but i just wonder are these republicans that i speak to, these former high ranking republicans, right? >> yeah, i just want to note your conversations have been mostly with former republicans. most of them when they come, the people who do decide to ultimately take on the former president oftentimes lose their seat and are ousted because of it. liz cheney is the latest case.

look at peter meier. tony gonzalez. a number of these people who voted to impeach the president and are now headed for the exit. cheney said she's going to try to expunge trump from the party. what we are looking at at least right now in the u.s. congress is the minority leader bringing these trump acolytes even closer. he's been dancing this fine line to a speakership if republicans take back the majority in november. and he has brought people like marjorie taylor greene, lauren bow bert, these election deniers who espouse false statements and what happened on january 6th even closer to him. these people are expected to even be reassigned their committee posts after marjorie

taylor greene was stripped of those posts. so i think it is all a sign that in order to be a. >> sean: in this party, look at the majority of republican candidates who are running for office right now. nearly 300 of them are election deniers according to analysis done by my colleague, amy gardner. that is what is still required to hold the position of power in this modern trump republican party. >> listen, no one likes to lose. no one likes to lose, but continuing to perpetuate this lie and to convince millions of people that the election was stolen is dangerous. jackie, thank you very much. coming up, the supreme court is about to hear a case that could hand state legislatures the power to overturn the will of the voter. state legislatures which have people on them who don't believe the election was fair. what democrats and republicans

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these races kind of go unnoticed by folks because so much of the air time, so much of the discussion on cable news shows is about the federal races, but talk to me about what you're seeing on the state level. >> so pretty much for like the past four or five years, i mean, state legislatures have always been important. they control your state budget, how schools are funded and issues like that, but in recent years, in part due to a lapse in supreme court decisions, state legislatures have played a role in gun laws, abortion access recently, voting laws like we saw in georgia and texas and 20 other, 18 other states in the past few years. so state legislatures are taking on an increasingly vital role in weeding out policy party while most of congress is deadlocked and while it comes to federal elections, there's an open debate about what the state

legislature's role is in those elections. now, is it to set the time and manner and rules of elections? or does it go beyond that and is it a kind of unfettered, you know, prime authority over everything when it comes to federal elections based on the reading of the institution? so when we're out in these state legislative races, that's kind of hanging over everything, but what often defines them is a local issue. like infrastructure, water access, potholes in roads, train crossings and local school funding. so they're these incredibly important macros in these races, but what i see on the ground when i'm in michigan or pennsylvania or even in arizona is it's more of these local issues driving these races. >> and democrats and republicans are spending big amounts of money to make sure they're winning. is this a new thing, spending this money for these local races? >> it's an acceleration.

i mean, if you just look at the tv ad spending so far, up until this point, there's been more than $100 million spent on television broadcast ads by republicans and democrats. republicans have about a $2 million advantage there, but that's negligible on the national level. at this point in 2020, it was 20 million less. so there's a lot of money coming in here and a lot of strategic money coming in. there's a democratic superpac/outside group known as the state's project and they announced they're going to pour $60 million into five state legislatures. that's a lot of money in these smaller races that often would see six figure, maybe low sechbl figure total budgets so to have that $60 million flooding just five state legislative races i think shows that at least on the political operative level, there's certainly an interest and an acknowledgment of the critical nature of state

legislative races to the national political -- >> yeah, there's so much power at stake here and i'm going to read two pieces from your article. you said 44% of republicans in crucial swing state legislatures use the power of their office to discredit or to try to overturn the results of the 2020 presidential election according to a "new york times." you also write the republicans have complete control over legislatures in states that have a total of 307 electoral votes. 37 more than needed to win a presidential election. so if the supreme court rules in favor of state legislatures having this unfettered power and you have half of republicans nearly who have used the power of their office to discredit or try to overturn the results of the 2020 election, current ones of power in the state legislatures in crucial swing states then you have those numbers that i just read out about how these legislatures have control of way over the

number of electoral votes needed to win the presidency, that shows you that we really could come to a situation where it's not about the popular vote anymore. >> well, that's one of the biggest fears i think driving a lot of democratic groups, including the state's project. and it's all over this debate over the independent state legislature theory which will be heard by the supreme court in a case that's coming out of north carolina regarding redistricting. at heart, the argument there is that state courts, your state supreme courts, other local courts, have no authority over state legislatures regarding elections. so this means that they could pass voting laws, draw new gerrymandering maps with zero oversight from the court. and so what some legal experts say such as the brendan center, the democrats fear they could invoke that theory if the court decides on it and use that as a

pretext to say if they disagree with how an election official ruled during a general election that they could then refuse to certify results of the election in a state, try and appoint their own electors. there is debate over that, but there are at least some legal experts and democrats who are very concerned about that. >> we will see if it happens and what happens after that. all of this stuff is kind of new and up in the air. nick, thank you so much. appreciate your time and all of your reporting. >> thanks. coming up, are we headed for a recession? what one prominent ceo is warning about the economy. don't go anywhere. g about the e. don't go anywhere. still disrupts my skin. despite treatment it disrupts my skin with itch. it disrupts my skin with rash. but now, i can disrupt eczema with rinvoq. rinvoq is not a steroid, topical, or injection. it's one pill, once a day, that's effective without topical steroids. many taking rinvoq saw clear or almost-clear skin while some saw up to 100% clear skin.

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headwinds. >> you can't talk about the economy without talking about the stuff in the future and this is serious stuff. you see it today in bond markets around the world and people selling u.s. treasury debt. it's the war. these are very, very serious things which i think are likely to push the u.s. and you know, the world, europe is already in a recession. the likelihood of putting the u.s. in a recession six to nine months from now. >> joining me is julia. she conducted with interview with dimon in london. thanks so much for being with us. is jamie dimon in the mainstream here for predicting 20 points down, recession, mid to next year or is he an outlier? >> thank you so much for having me. there are certainly concerns around the market, around the direction of the u.s. economy and the key take away is that the future carries a number of risk.

in particular, the war in ukraine and how that evolves and how the u.s. economy responds to rising interest rates. so on that note, i asked the jpmorgan chase ceo how he thinks the federal reserve is doing navigating its way through the current environment. >> they waited too long and did too little and qt starts in that. but they're clearly catching up. and from here, we wish them success and keep fingers crossed they manage to slow down the economy enough it doesn't cause, whatever it is is mild. the far more serious thing is this war. far more serious than the short-term effect of the economy and things like that. >> as a follow up, i asked jamie dimon whether it's possible the federal reserve may have to actually cut interest rates next year and he said maybe. it depends just how severe this downturn is. just how bad the recession gets. so if inflation comes down and

growth suffers, we may be looking at a federal reserve cutting interest rates, but coming back to the beginning, jamie dimon said a number of uncertainties remain and we just don't know yet. >> thank you very much. and coming up next hour on msnbc, encrypted messages, a secret recording, and explosive witness testimony inside week one of the trial against a right wing militia group accused of plotting the january 6 attack. don't go anywhere. i'll be right back. attack. don't go awhnyere. i'll be right back 's the greatesh roster ever assembled. next is the new great garlic. the tender rotisserie style chicken is sublime and the roasted garlic aioli adds a lovely pecan flavor. man, the second retirement really changed you. the new subway series. what's your pick? it seems like things are falling apart lately. the economy. the market... everything. but upwork lets you strategically hire talent to weather all ups and downs your business might go through. look at all that talent. ♪♪

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