michael is back. and he's more dangerous. maybe the only way he can die... is if i die too. [ screaming ] hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. in an election season roiled by wave after wave of extremist conditions running for office on the republican side, all across the country, peddling lies and conspiracies, and dangerous white spremacist rhetoric,

there is no one quite like republican candidate for governor of pennsylvania mr. doug mastriano. he insists the 2020 election was stolen from donald trump, which, of course, it was not. he supports a draconian ban on abortion. peddles vaccine disinformation. we could go on and on and on. but right now, the contest between mastriano and democratic candidate josh shapiro is being defined by hate and anti-semitism in its final days and weeks. "new york times" is out with a piece of reporting that says this, quote, mr. mastriano, who promotes christian power and disdains the separation of church and state, has repeatedly lashed mr. shapiro for attending and sending his children to what mastriano calls a privileged, exclusive, elite school, suggesting to one audience that it e vinced mr. shapiro's distan for people like us. it is a jewish day school where

students are given both secular and religious instruction, but mastriano's language in portraying it as an elitist reserve seems to be a dog whistle. mastriano said, apparently now it's some kind of racist thing if i talk about the school, as he cast himself as a champion of school choice for all. quote, it's a very expensive, elite school. all of this taking place in a state that just four years ago witnessed the deadliest attack on the jewish community in u.s. history. and it is not even the first time the mastriano campaign has played footsie with anti-semitism. "the atlantic" reports that mastriano, quote, paid $5,000 for consulting services to the social network gab, a haven for anti-semimitts and neo-nazis. it is the platform that robert bower, the attacker in pittsburgh, posted on just before 11 people were murdered inside the synagogue.

mastriano's campaign ultimately left gab and he released a statement saying he condemned anti-semitism in any form. but he accepted a $500 donation from gab's founder, who has a history of anti-semitic remarks. anti-semitism infecting one of the most critical midterm contests in the country is where we start the hour. joining us now, pennsylvania attorney general and democratic nominee for governor, josh shapiro. mr. attorney general, thank you for being with us. first, your reaction to "the new york times" reporting that these attacks on your school that you attended and where your children go are indeed rooted in anti-semitic ideology. >> yeah, nicolle, look, i think it's less about how it makes me feel and more about how doug mastriano's extreme and dangerous conduct makes others feel. and i can tell you that his extremism makes everyone in pennsylvania less safe.

listen, here in pennsylvania, doug mastriano thinks unless you think like him, unless you look like him, unless you worship like him, unless you marry like him, then you don't count in his pennsylvania. you don't get to sit at the table of progress. that attitude makes everyone less safe. my view is, no matter what you look like or where you come from, who you love or who you pray to, you belong here in pennsylvania. and i want to be your governor. i want to be a governor for all 13 million pennsylvanians. his division, his divisiveness, him pitting one pennsylvanian against another is not the american way and it makes everyone less safe. >> well, it also makes jewish voters in your state -- in pennsylvania not comfortable with him as a politician. so, aside from the safety, he also has a political problem with jewish voters. so, do -- are you not comfortable answering whether or

not you believe his attacks are anti-semitic? i mean, they seem to. >> well, it is clear that he's courting anti-semites and engaging in anti-semitic slurs, but it's also clear that he's someone who engages in racist conduct routinely, as well. i mean, remember, this is the guy who decided to, on the grounds of the u.s. army war college, just a few years ago, nicolle, in carlisle, pennsylvania, not as part of some re-enactment, but actually in a faculty photo, he chose to wear the uniform of the confederacy. the uniform of traitors, nicolle, the uniform of those who went to battle to defend slavery. so, this is a guy who, yes, he peddles anti-semitic slurs routinely, he wears the confederate uniform. he attacks people who are gay throughout the commonwealth of pennsylvania. he has clearly stated multiple times that his worlds, not mine,

all religions aren't created equal, only certain religions should count. this is who this man is. he is extreme and dangerous so, yes, when he attacks someone for being jewish or attacks someone for being black, that makes everyone less safe. and he is someone who has engaged in all kinds of fear mongers and all kinds of attacks against people based on what they look like, who they pray to or what they love. >> let me show -- we've been following your race closely and we have a bit of a reel of some of the attacks you're talking about. let me show that to our viewers. >> the most important thing is, i get to appoint the secretary of state and that secretary of state is going to clean up election laws. we're going to reset, in fact, registration, you'll have to reregister. >> would that woman who decided to have an abortion, which would be considered an illegal abortion, be charged with murder? >> okay, let's go back to the basic question there, is that a human being? if it is, it deserves equal

protection under the law. >> you're saying yes? >> yes, i am. >> is global warming real? >> it is not. it's fake since. >> should gay marriage be legal? >> absolutely not. i'm not a hater for saying that. it's been like that for 6,000 years. it was the first institution founded by god and it needs to stay that way. >> donald trump is calling and he wants his playbook back. let's go through this one extreme position at a time. women who have an abortion should be charged with murder. how is that going over in pennsylvania? >> yeah, not well for him. i mean, he has by for the most extreme and dangerous position in the country. he wants to ban all abortions, with no exceptions. he's talked about charging doctors who perform abortions with felonies. and now he is saying that women should be charged with murder who have this life-saving, necessary medical procedure at

times. and i mean, this guy is so out of touch. it's one of the reasons, nicolle, why so many, not just democrats, but republicans and independents are joining our campaign. they recognize how dangerous he is. and it's also why so many business leaders have begun to speak up and say that his extreme views on abortion and gay rights and other issues are going to drive jobs out of the commonwealth and make it harder for people to do business here. >> well, he'll be so busy locking women up, he won't have time to recruit any businesses. he also wants to outlaw gay marriage and believes global warming is fake science. what do you think it says about our politics that he won the nomination on the republican side? >> well, it shows that the people who nominated him on -- in the republican party, you know, that their party has gone astray. it is far from the party that i know you cared so deeply about and worked so hard for. i am someone who believes we need to have two healthy parties in america.

and we don't have that right now. this extremism that doug mastriano represents is who was chosen to be the nominee of the party here in a big state, in the swingiest of all swing states in the nation. the good news is, folks are rejecting him. not just democrats, but republicans and independents, as well. they're making clear that he is just a bridge too far. they're making it clear that his extremism is not a way toward the future and not the approach that we want to take here in pennsylvania. we got 28 days to go here in the commonwealth to determine what kind of future we want. i've got a lot of faith in the good people of pennsylvania that they'll reject that extremism, they'll support my candidacy and we're going to find ways to bring republicans and democrats back together to reset our politics, to get back to that foundation we should all agree upon, that we love this country, we value our freedom, we cherish our democracy and that we're all going to be committed to that and then have the battles we're

supposed to have from there over policy and that is what perfects our union. and that is the stand we need to make right here in the birthplace of our democracy, this great experiment that began 246 years ago, just a few blocks from where i sit right now. it's being tested right now. and the way we get through this is to defeat doug mastriano and bring health back to our politics. >> i don't know what republicans you think you're going to do that with, i mean, we started this hour yesterday showing that the conspiracy of the 2020 election was stolen from trump is a closing argument. those lies are being peddled from debate stages and rally podiums. i know they are prominently playing out in your state and we first got to know you as you defended the integrity of the vote in the commonwealth. racism is a centerpiece. a sitting u.s. senator uttering, again, these are closing messages in the campaign. what republicans do you think you can work with in elected

office in pennsylvania? >> well, first off, we've had over 20 prominent republican officials, you know, take off that red jersey, put on the pennsylvania jersey and endorse my candidacy. we're seeing in communities that i show up in, like in susquehanna county this weekend, a real rural, republican community, hundreds of people showed up to hear what we had to say and to talk about how we need to bring people back together to help, you know, repair our democracy and move our commonwealth forward. i remain confident and hopeful that we'll overcome this fear and division that people like mastriano bring about. i will say, nicolle, i don't blame the good people of pennsylvania as much as i blame their leaders. understand, mastriano's been lying to them for years about the election being stolen, for example, and when your leaders lie to you repeatedly, sometimes you're going to believe it. and i think the best thing we can do right now to defeat extremism is to literally defeat

people like mastriano at the ballot box. and listen, i know that sounds self-serving, i'm running against him, but i do believe that -- i do believe that it helps fix and repair the damage that people like him have done when we show republicans that they no longer get rewarded for lying. they no longer get rewarded for saying the most outrageous and extreme things. they can't win elections that way. and maybe that will be a course correction for them. because understand, the reason why mastriano and others peddle these types of lies and engage in this type of fear mongering and extremism is because they're profoundly weak people, right? they are spineless. they are not centered. and the reason why i can say that is because they're willing to sell out our democracy and our freedom to win an election. that is -- that is the definition of spineless and weak. and so, if we can show them there's no reward at the end and we can change and course correct

our politics by defeating them, then maybe -- maybe -- we can repair our politics and get back to the center and get back to a place where we can govern together where we have two healthy parties again in this country. >> it's a profound articulation of a counterextremism approach, as well, and i wonder if you have any concerns if the results of the election will be trusted and you've got a lot of -- i mean, i went in and read all the local coverage, you have a lot of voters telling reporters they plan to vote for you and oz. do you think that the results will be trusted and accepted by the citizens of pennsylvania? >> i know i'll trust them and i'll accept the results and the will of the good people of pennsylvania. i trust the republican and democratic clerks who are running our elections in the 67 counties across pennsylvania. it's true that my opponent has already begun to, you know, cast doubt as donald trump did in the elections before that, but you

know, we can't stop that. i've got a lot of confidence in the department of the state and the republican and democrat clerks of elections to do their jobs and to respect the will of the people here in pennsylvania. >> let me just ask you about all that reporting in local and national media, it's really undeniable at this point that there are a lot of voters in pennsylvania describing themselves this way, as ticket splitters. what counsel do you have for mr. fetterman to boost -- i mean, you are running, i think, 11 points ahead of mastriano, 11, 12, is the average of the polls, this race is much closer. why do you think that is? >> well, look, i'm -- i am focused on my race. i know john is focused on his, i'm rooting for him, i'm voting for hip. we campaigned together this weekend at a steelworkers hall in southeastern pennsylvania. every race is different and i'm confident john is going to see this through and win at the end of the day. >> pennsylvania attorney general

josh shapiro, someone without a lot of free time. thank you for spending some of it with us today. grateful. >> thank you. thank you, nicolle. >> let me bring in democratic pollster cornell belcher and our friend charlie sykes, both are msnbc contributors. your reaction to the goings on of the commonwealth? >> well, you know, listening to that, i don't -- the choice is very stark and it's clear. and one of the things that i kept thinking of when i was listening to that really good interview you did is, you know, who -- the voters that are in the middle, who hear anti-semitism, who hear racism and think they have no skin in the game. and think, so, okay, i'm going to vote because i'm outraged at gas prices, i'm going to vote for the republican regardless of this anti-semitism or sexism or racism, because i don't have any skin in that game. and i think at some point, part

of the closing argument has to be to these people, democracy is your skin in the game. >> yeah. >> and the idea that you can live in a world where your children will grow up and you're going to give power to people who are, you know, authoritarian and hate mongers. so, at some point, we have to pivot this conversation to those people in the middle who still hear the anti-semitism, still hear racism, and we talk ped about this in 2016, who rare the racism, hear the sexism and still don't think they have skin in the game, nicolle, we've got to have a better conversation with folks in the mid whole hear this and shrug their shoulders and go, but the gas prices are so high. we've got to have a better conversation with those people. >> yeah, and i mean, charlie, i guess the reason i have started my show yesterday and today with this umbrella is, no one is spared. i mean, no one. so, the lies are about our votes

that don't go to them, so, that is all of us. the racism is at the root of all of it, all the conspiracies about the election are because they actually think they won is because they want to design whose votes will be counted from here on forward. the anti-semitism, it's all part of a piece. and i guess my question for you, charlie, is, mastriano is particularly abhorrent and the gab stuff is messy, but it's interesting how much in the republican party still turns on the package. i'm not sure on policies, i mean, there's not much policy on the right anymore, but oz is just wrapped a little more neatly. >> well, let's just focus on mastriano and the anti-semitism, i mean, this is an old, old issue. remember the william f. buckley in the '60s and in the '90, he devoted a full edition of "in search of anti-semitism," because he understand this was a

specter haunting republicans and the right wing. so, a remotely rational political party would have no problem in dropping someone like doing mastriano. he is not going to be elected governor of pennsylvania. they are about to blow this election. but this republican party can't do it, because it's a republican party that refuses to hold people like this accountable or tommy tuberville or herschel walker accountable. it's a party that's run by a guy, donald trump, who traffics in slurs, who, you know, calls chinese americans coco chow. republicans have decided they need this constituency of mouth-breathing bigots. it is a case study in a state like pennsylvania which has seen tangibly the danger and the rise of anti-semitic violence. the true of life synagogue massacre was only four years ago. and here you have one of the

most egregiously anti-jewish, anti-semitic bigots in the country on the ballot and republicans just shrug their shoulders. i mean, at some point, you know, you have to ask, just from the basis of self-preservation, why wouldn't you drop mastriano, but also, just from the fundamental question of decency, do you really want to be in a party with people like this? >> it is -- i mean, the attorney general has an interesting articulation of sort of the politics of this, and it's clear to charlie's point, cornell, that the politics are not benefiting mastriano in the traditional republican coalition, where some conservative -- let me read from "the times" reporting. the orthodox community would swing towards more republicans, said an orthodox jewish lawyer from the pittsburgh area. but in the this situation, because of the association

between mastriano an anti-semites, i think they'll swing democrat. mr. saul said memories of the pittsburgh attack prompted a bigger degree of concern. he may not be anti-semitic, but the fact that he has supporters that he hasn't forcefully denounced makes me anti-mastriano. it's simple, but it's ball game. they have to start losing on this extremist rhetoric. they have to start losing. racism can't propel them to victories or it feels like we'll reach a point where the problem can't be solved. and i know we talked last week about it sitting at the intersection of the threat of domestic violent extremism. for some reason, that triggers the right, who loves to live tweet the show, hi guys, but it's a truth they hate. if you are going to court the vote of the racists and anti-semites, why -- where's the

sensitiity about sitting at the fulcrum of a domestic violent extremist threat? >> well, nicolle, the painful truth is, they've been awful successful historically. i mean, they have, nicolle. there's been no more successful political strategy in the history of this country than the southern strategy. it has won a lot more elections than it has lost. and that's why the stakes are so high right now is because they don't really believe that is a losing strategy. they still believe that if you double down on tribalism, there's enough folks who are going to shrug their shoulders at the racism, or there's just enough racists and just bigots to get them to a majority coalition. but that's also the beauty of

what we have happening here and quite frankly and the beauty of something that i had the pleasure of being apart of in 2008. and it was that most americans do want change. most americans will reject -- the majority of americans will, in fact, reject and try to come together and try to bring -- and try to sort of bring racial healing to this country and look beyond that. but we lose in silence. and we lose when we don't turn out and one of the things i'm worried most about as a pollster, what are those young people going to do who we saw turn out in presidential election in 2020? are they going to turn out in force in this coming election, because they typically don't. you know, what are people of color going to do, are they going to turn out in force or are we going to have an electorate look like 2018 or 2020 or one that looks like 2010

or 2014. if we have one that looks like 2010 or 2014, nicolle, i think our democracy is lost. but i also have a faith in american people that they're going to get this right. although history has shown that the southern strategy has worked a lot more in our past than not. >> so it's like a brutal contradiction there from cornell and i don't want to fixate too much on the optimism or the lessons of history because i listened to rachel mad doe new podcast and my brain is more on the lessons of history at this moment, but charlie, i wonder where that leaves you in terms of your counsel for the closing messages. we're now in the final four weeks and i really like cornell's formulation of, you know, if you have skin in the game if you give a you know what about democracy. >> well, i do think that they -- there needs to be some counterpunching in calling the people out for all of this. you know, i mean, i think a lot of democrats are hoping that simply talking about abortion

will be enough and that's going to be a tremendous issue in this election. but i do think that you need to call out the seditionists, you need to call out the liars, you need to call out people like doug mastriano. you need to turn around the crime issue by saying that, you know, by challenging republicans who pose as defenders of the police, but also deserted the more than 100 capitol police officers who were injured on january 6th. so, i think blunt speech about this is the best. but i'm not in the business of closing arguments. i will say this, listening to cornell, it occurs to me that, you know, right now -- the election of donald trump in 2016 convinced the republican political class that nothing matters. >> yeah. >> never apologizing doesn't matter, that access hollywood was the new model. if, in 2022, doug mastriano is blown out and herschel walker again loses a seat in georgia,

maybe the narrative shifts. at some point, you know, we're not going to appeal -- be able to appeal to decency, because i think that's, you know, that ship has sailed, but if this becomes a losing strategy, so, that's what it comes down to. they're going to have to lose and realize this is the hot stove of politics before anything changes in our politics. >> right, it's not the association with gab or racism or anti-semitism that will break the fever, it's losing. i love both of you for your honesty. cornell, charlie, thank you so much. when we come back, just shy of its 5:00 p.m. deadline, doj has filed its response to the ex-president's request to the u.s. supreme court to intervene in the dispute over documents seized from mar-a-lago. our legal analyst is pouring over the response. we'll get you details after a quick break. plus, rachel maddow is here with the story of an authoritarian movement, eck treatmentists who had the

support of some members of congress. the plot to overthrow our government and a seditious conspiracy trial. it turns out we have been right here before. all those stories and more when "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. don't go anywhere. ficantly clearer skin, skyrizi helps me move with less joint pain, stiffness, swelling, and fatigue. and skyrizi is just 4 doses a year after two starter doses. skyrizi attaches to and reduces a source of excess inflammation that can lead to skin and joint symptoms. with skyrizi, 90% clearer skin and less joint pain is possible. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine, or plan to. with skyrizi, there's nothing like the feeling of improving my skin and joints...

...and that means everything. now's the time to talk to your doctor about how skyrizi can help treat your psoriatic arthritis- so you can get going. learn how abbvie can help you save. discomfort back there? instead of using aloe, or baby wipes, or powders, try the cooling, soothing relief or preparation h. because your derriere deserves expert care. preparation h. get comfortable with it.

talk to anyone in san francisco and they'll tell you now is not the time to make our city even more expensive by raising taxes. san francisco has one of the largest city budgets in america. yet when it comes to homelessness and public safety, we're not getting results. what we really need are better policies, more accountability, and safer neighborhoods. vote no on propositions m and o. the last thing we need are higher taxes, especially right now. now is not the time to raise taxes in san francisco. vote no on m and o. (vo) red lobster's finer points of fun dining when mouth is full, and shrimp is endless,n francisco. the "booth bow" is the proper way to say "shrimp me!" ultimate endless shrimp is back, now with argentine red shrimp. welcome to fun dining. did you know some of your detergent's fragrance

disappears in the dryer? downy in-wash scent boosters survive the washer & dryer for freshness that lasts 6 times longer than detergent alone. release freshness with every touch... with downy in-wash scent boosters. we have some breaking news to tell you about in the case brought by the twice impeached ex-president before the united states supreme court. just moments ago, less than an hour before it was due, doj filed its response to a request by donald trump to put the 100 or so classified documents found in the court-approved search of

mar-a-lago placed back into a court mandated review. that sounds confusing, help is on the way. joyce vance, former u.s. attorney general and law professor at the university of alabama and msnbc legal analyst is here to help. joyce, i just want to read from the first page of doj's response. it says, this application concerns an unprecedented order by the district court, that's eileen cannon, right? restricting the executive branch's use of its own highly classified records in an ongoing criminal investigation and directing the dissemination of those records out for a special master review. the government obtained a warrant to search the resident of applicant, former president donald trump, based on the judicial finding of probable cause to believe that the search would reveal evidence of crimes including wrongful retention of documents and information relating to the national defense, as well as obstruction of justice. we forget this is all about crimes, but there was probably

cause to believe that donald trump committed and mounting evidence, including some brand new reporting in "the new york times" today about lawyer christina bob, of his obstruction of justice crimes, as well. >> well, nicolle, if you find this to be confusing, you're not alone. i feel like we almost have to do an entire class on latin legal terms for this to make sense. but one of the most important things to understand here is that what trump is appealing to the supreme court is perhaps not nearly as interesting as what he is not appealing. because he is not appealing the justice department's ability to continue to use the classified documents in its criminal case. that's proceeding a pace. what here what we have in court and the argument that doj is making is that this amounts to an absolutely unprecedented effort to interfere with a criminal investigation. we have a search warrant dually

issued by a judge after a showing of probable cause that evidence of crime would be found in the location to be searched. and gee, guess what, the fbi shows up and what do they find? evidence of crime. just what the probable cause said would be there. and so, the fight now is a very interesting one. it looks like the trump folks want to get the classified documents included back with the group of documents that raymond dearie will be able to review. why would they want to do that while permitting the criminal investigation to proceed? well, it seems likely that they're still trying to figure out what was in those documents. that they want visibility on what the government has managed to reclaim from trump. and there's a very inside baseball argument about jurisdiction, but the government most likely has the better part of that argument, and ultimately, trump's not able to

show that there's any damage that he suffers that's something that's irreversible damage, that would impair his ability to protect his rights going forward if the government is permitted to keep the stay that it won't in the 11th circuit. that's the stay that lets it use those classified documents, so, essentially, doj says, let the stay remain in place, trump has no basis for setting it aside. did i make it better or worse? >> my brain is still, you know, when you are waiting for someone to load and you've got the spinning, my brain is spinning. let me ask you a question what is the fork in the road? i mean, are we now on baited breath to see what the supreme court will do? >> i don't think we are, at least my breath isn't very baited here. i think the supreme court, this probably goes onto the shadow docket and the court says, sorry, we're not interested, 11th circuit, you can continue

with your work. may not even get to the shadow docket. justice thomas could certainly issue that order on his own. >> and i won't hold my breath for that. i want to ask you how much attention doj would be paying to these revelations which seem to clearly pile upon themselves of donald trump's efforts to obstruct this investigation. you assume that's information they already have, the fact that christina bob was interviewed by federal authorities on friday suggests that parts of this investigation are very much ongoing. >> yes, i think we should be operating under the assumption to the extent we can assume anything that doj knows far more than we know in the public. i can't tell you how many times as a prosecutor i would watch reporting on a matter, particularly public corruption case that we were involved in, and we had a lot more access to information than the media did, because we had grand jury power, we had subpoena power, so, we could get information that other

folks couldn't get their hands on. doj has to be prioritizing this case. you know, this really jumped out of obscurity as a matter of the government wanting its documents back to a case where trump has essentially dared the justice department not to prosecute him by engaging in prolonged acts of obstruction of justice. >> all right, joyce is going to be back in the next hour to sort of keep digging on these developments, thank you so much for jumping on as the news broke, we're really grateful to you. up next for us, the oath keepers trial continued today, but they are not the first group of americans to be charged with seditious conspiracy. a new podcast from our dear friend rachel maddow explores how close we came to a group of ultra-right extremists overthrowing the u.s. government. they came so close in 1940 that the fbi decided their attack was imminent and something had to be done. take a listen. >> in new york, the alleged ring leaders of a fantastic christian

front plot to overthrow the united states government by force are now behind federal bars. j. edgar hoover charges that they had plotted widespread terroristic activities, bombings, and anti-semitic outbursts. >> i'm going to guess that more than half of you have already listened to the whole thing, so you know how powerful and amazing it is. up next, the powerful and amazing rachel maddow will join us on all of this. her new podcast. hi! >> hello! what will you change? ♪ will you make something better? ♪ will you create something entirely new? ♪ our dell technologies advisors provide you with

the tools and expertise you need to do incredible things. because we believe there's an innovator in all of us. (vo the new iphone 14 pro is here. and right now business owners can get it on us at t-mobile. apple business essentials with apple care+ is included so you can easily manage your team's devices, here, and here. all on the network with more 5g coverage. it's the ultimate business trifecta, with the new iphone 14 pro on us. only from t-mobile for business. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪

♪ ♪ i'm on a mission to talk to people about getting screened for colon cancer, and hear their reasons why. i screen for my son. i'm his biggest fan. if you're 45 or older at average risk, you have screening options, like cologuard. cologuard is noninvasive and finds 92% of colon cancers. it's not for those at high risk. false positive and negative results may occur. ask your provider if cologuard is right for you. everyone has a reason to screen for colon cancer. if you're 45 or older, get started at missiontoscreen.com

shingles. some describe it as an intense burning sensation or an unbearable itch. this painful, blistering rash can disrupt your life for weeks. it could make your workday feel impossible. the virus that causes shingles

is likely already inside of you. if you're 50 years or older, ask your doctor or pharmacist about shingles. been waiting for this for a long time. i'm joined now by my friend and colleague rachel maddow. yesterday, she released the first two episodes of her brand new podcast, it's already number one on the apple podcast chart, of course. she explores how the stories we cover today, things we talk about here, things about insurrectionists on trial for seditious conspiracy, federal prosecutors under crushing political pressure, may seem unprecedented. i even call them that, but we have been here before. "ultra" unpacks what rachel calls the all but forgotten true story of ultra-right extremism in america. super charged by proximity to power and how we're not the first generation to witness

insurrectionists testing democracy before our eyes. the story she tells takes place in 1940, more than 80 years ago. 17 members of a far-right group in new york, five pictured here in this photo, look what they're holding. plotting to overthrow the government with force. were charged with sedition. it ended with all of them being set free in part because the plot to overthrow the government and violence on that scale was too much to believe. let's listen to what happens next. >> as the courtroom was cheering the acquittal of the boys from brooklyn, john f. cassidy rushed up to the judge and asked for his guns back, which the judge immediately had to give him, in line with the second amendment. and cassidy and others walked out of the courthouse to the awaiting cheers. >> in the wake of that failed trial, supporters of the brooklyn boys demanded to the attorney general that fbi and justice department personnel themselves should be investigated for why the group had been indicted in the first place.

father coughlin, who had initially tried to distance himself from the christian front when they were charged, he proclaimed himself vindicated and victorious. he said the whole prosecution was all begined up just to try to make him look bad. he said, in his words, that it was a hoax. it was a lot of things -- it was not a hoax. >> joining us now, my dear friend and colleague rachel maddow, host of the new podcast "ultra." >> nice to see you. >> this is so good. and i had the same physical reaction listening to it again as i did when i first listened to it. will you just tell us the story? i'm guessing most of our viewers have heard it before, because they downloaded it as soon as it came up. >> we're sort of at the beginning of the story arc. i talked to a friend who said, this is an an tholg -- oh, no, no, they all come together. so, what you just played there was about the 1940 sedition

trial of a unit of the christian front. father charles coughlin, who i think is a figure who is not lost to history, people know about father coughlin. >> most pop your lar radio show in the country. >> biggest media figure by a mile. i mean, if today's population, if you mapped the size of his audience on today's population, he would have been looking at a weekly audience of 80 million americans. >> oh, my god. >> right, so, a huge day in cable news with a completely dominant figure, you are at 5 million, maybe, he's 80 million every week. >> you are. >> well, i don't even get there. but he's that dominant and he is a fascist, he endorses fascism. he's very, very anti-semitic and calls for his followers to arm they've got heavy machine guns, they are training for a specific day on which they are going to try to assassinate a dozen members of congress and bomb

government buildings and attack a bunch of jewish sites, because they wanted to get the left and the anti-fascist movements and jewish communities mad at them, because they wanted it to be a civil war. they were accelerationists, they wanted a race war. the fbi was onto them. they pull threat on trial. they were all acquitted. that was 1940. and where the series goes is to 1944, with that defeat fresh in the government's mind and they know how dangerous those guys were, there's another seditious trial brought called the great sedition trial in 1944 where 30 defendants are put on trial for, again, plots to overthrow the government, stockpiling weapons, in that case, a lot of them, a lot of contact with the hitler government, that was trying to put them up to it. and the problem ended up being that this were lots of members of congress who were implicated in some of the ten drills of that plot. and the political pressure they put on that prosecution to derail the investigation, to fire the prosecutor, is a really

important cautionary tale for us now. >> explain. >> i think that there is a room -- there is room and there is accountability for the criminal law. sedition is a crime. trying to overthrow the government is a crime. it has to be prosecuted as a crime. but the criminal law is not a silver bull let. there has to be other forms of accountability and push-back by the country, in part because our criminal justice system is actually not great at holding to account people who have a lot of political power. we're just not. and that has resonance for today, but it's not something that's new. yes, there have been public corruption cases, but the courtroom is not an easy place to prosecute people with a lot of political power. the justice department is run by political appointees. that matters in terms of the way the justice department deals with people who commit political crimes and have political power to bring to bear against them. >> there is as, though, this alliance of the foreign power,

the nazi party in germany and i wonder, you know, for you, when you're working and when you're storytelling, are all the things that we do, you know, you don't do them monday through friday anymore, but are they on your brain as you are diving deep? you have all the original source material, it's so rich, it's so perfect, it's so you. can you dive into history or are you constantly thinking about the 19 republicans in the roosevelt room trying to help trump overthrow the government, the pressure put on the mueller investigation, i mean, can you separate what we're living through and covering from what you're diving into and the story you're telling historically? >> i think that when i think about what will resonate with an audience listening to it, it's a question of what resonates for me, too. i mean, it matters that this is the america-first movement, right? and, like, people in the 21st century bringing back america-first as their slogan, they've got wikipedia, they know

how to look it up, they know what they're referencing. it's worth appreciate what the america-first movement was about, in all of its complexity and all of its darkness, in some cases. the pressure on the justice department i mean, when coughlin calls it a hoax. he wasn't wearing a baseball cap, but we're otherwise there. there's another moment where the nazi agent who is working with a u.s. senator writing to him when it looks like they're going to be exposed, tells him, the witch hunt is on. the rsonance is there. you cannot avoid it. but when it comes to world war ii, when it comes to the holocaust, the nazis, there's no making comparisons and i'm not trying to do that. i'm not talking about something that's nazi-like today, i'm talking about actual nazis in their day the way they were acting. but we've told ourselves a lot of very happy stories about how we were unified as a country heading into world war ii and it was always clear that we fight that war and we beat them and it was clear what side we'd be on.

there were a lot of americans that wanted us to be on the other side in that fight and we should know that. >> i mean, the -- you know, i started the hour with josh shapiro and the attacks in "the new york times" from mastriano and, you know, do you think that the republican party of today that is on debate stages and at podiums at rallies with thousands of people saying racist, anti-semitic things, has an eye towards history or do you think it's muscle memory -- we know trump doesn't -- where do you think what we see today comes from? >> i think authoritarian, fascist, anti-semitic, racist wedge politics is something that humans have a muscle for. and i think that it works. there's an appeal to fascism that attracts people who otherwise feel powerless. if you tell people, whatever's going on in your life that isn't working for you, or that feels hopeless to you, blame it on the

other. blame it on the invader, blame it on, the gays, blame it on the jews, the immigrants. that's a viscerally satisfying thing. when somebody who has authoritarian impulses and wants to use that to their advantage, recognizes that's working in an audience, you just play it like an instrument. and that's why -- and therefore the history is helpful. so that you know when people are using anti-semitic tropes. it is helpful to know that mastriano is playing an old song and to help people recognize it, name it and know what it is and recognize what that leads to. same thing with talking about, you know, in elections not being the way that we should decide who is in political power. well, okay. let's look at other places where we've tried that and when that's -- we've been up against that in the country. if you give up elections as a way to have political power, well, how do we decide who is in power? the alternative is something that some americans got us to

turn to with guns in the past. they were defeated by americans who preceded us who was smarter and funnier and more interesting and more capable than we were. we should learn from that. >> i have some pieces of sound from it, i want to -- we have to sneak in a break, no one does that as artfully as you do, but i want to play some of rachel's new podcast and we'll talk to her about it on the other side. don't go anywhere. if you have this... consider adding this. an aarp medicare supplement insurance plan

from unitedhealthcare. medicare supplement plans help by paying some of what medicare doesn't... and let you see any doctor. any specialist. anywhere in the u.s. who accepts medicare patients. so if you have this... consider adding this. call unitedhealthcare today for your free decision guide. ♪ alice loves the scent of gain so much, she wished there was a way to make it last longer. say hello to your fairy godmother alice and long-lasting gain scent beads. and now, get $10 back when you spend $30. that's a seriously good deal. it's time... to score a deal. because wayfair's five days of deals are here! deck those halls with seasonal decor from $9. up to half off fireplaces and heating, kitchen must-haves up to 65% off... and dining deals you don't want to miss. plus, free shipping. on everything at wayfair.

now that's a deal you can feel good about. shop five days of deals now through october 11th! only at wayfair! ♪ wayfair you've got just what i need ♪ when moderate to severe ulcerative colitis persists... put it in check with rinvoq, a once-daily pill. when uc got unpredictable,... i got rapid symptom relief with rinvoq. check. when uc held me back... i got lasting, steroid-free remission with rinvoq. check. and when uc got the upper hand... rinvoq helped visibly repair the colon lining.

check. rapid symptom relief. lasting, steroid-free remission. and a chance to visibly repair the colon lining. check. check. and check. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections and blood clots, some fatal; cancers, including lymphoma and skin cancer; death, heart attack, stroke, and tears in the stomach or intestines occurred. people 50 and older... with at least 1 heart disease risk factor have higher risks. don't take if allergic to rinvoq... as serious reactions can occur. tell your doctor if you are or may become pregnant. put uc in check and keep it there, with rinvoq. ask your gastroenterologist about rinvoq. and learn how abbvie could help you save. ♪ ♪ ♪♪ voltaren. the joy of movement. ♪♪

they call that consciousness of guilt when you deny something that's true. so, when the department of justice says he wasn't under investigation, and we know he was, then they're concealing that he's under investigation and it's being asked in the context of a plane crash. and so you have to scratch your head. it means they know something they don't want us to know. >> so, i mean, first of all, obstruction of justice, something we've covered since trump has tried to obstruct with the mueller probe and now the mar-a-lago probably and just the deep reporting in this. >> john flannery is kind of coincidentally a former federal prosecutor. he was an assistant district attorney at sdny. he lives in virginia, very close to the plane crash that is the subject of the first episode and he's just made a study of it and sort of taken a prosecutor's eye towards it and one of the things that he merged there, you have this senator who dies in a plane crash, it turns out that he was

involved, i mean, this sounds crazy to say it, but he was involved in a plot with an agent of the hitler government to distribute nazi propaganda in the united states through the u.s. senate, that really happened, and we learned all of that when the justice department brought all that evidence out in court. in the immediate aftermath of the crash, though, they were like, we weren't investigating him, there were two fbi employees and a prosecutor from the criminal division on that plane by sheer coincidence. and then what they revealed in court soon thereafter showed that he was at the center of an investigation that was going to drag down many, ultimately, was on track to drag down many of the biggest names in politics in washington at the time. and so why did they deny it, maybe they just didn't want the country to know -- the -- where you get to very quickly is that we need the criminal law to have a role here and you also need

political disgrace, activism and good journalism to expose this stuff to teach americans what it means and to help us build our antibodies against it. >> and with the other echo that i thought of is, we -- we ask all the time, you know, where is this justice department -- they're not supposed to be the only check on political corruption. >> yes, exactly. >> and un-american, you know, arching towards violent insurrections, not even arching towards. they're not supposed to be the only check in our society. but we are at a place now where they are. >> i was thinking about this in light of the january 6th committee we're going to be covering the hearing on thursday together, we'll be hear during our prime time recap on thursday night. i'm really looking forward to seeing what they do, with what may be their final hearing, but it has given -- doing this work on this history from 80-plus years ago has given me, i think, a renewed appreciation for what exactly it is they're doing. the point of the january 6th

committee and its investigation is not to make refer altos the justice department, it's not to process what they're able to find and turn it into indictments, yes, there may be indictments that come out of it, but the work they're doing is itself the work the country needs done. exposing it, making sure there cannot be a revisionist history about it, making sure the public record on it is clear and we understand the seriousness of it. i mean, if you put somebody on trial for sedition, you're putting them on trial for trying to overthrow the government. by definition, their plot failed. because the government -- >> the judicial system works to put them on trial. >> so, you are in this dif assault situation, where, the first amendment gives you the right to say whatever you want and associate with whomever you please. if you are on trial for sedition, it was a failed plot, so it is always going to look like a plot that was never going to work. so, the criminal justice system should put people on trial for sedition when they try to overthrow the government.

we should rarely see it succeed. and we need accountability as a country, we need activism, journalism, political responsibility, political accountability, to make sure this stuff doesn't win. it can't all just be some sort of silver bullet from some prosecutor. it didn't work that way. >> wasn't built that way. >> wasn't built that way. we shouldn't have expected that from mueller with the russia investigation. we shouldn't expect that, i think, from the garland justice department with january 6th, the larger seditious plots around it. again, there's a role for prison, right? there's a role for conviction, but if you're alive, if you are -- your generation that is alive on earth in america when there is a fascist authoritarian move thament is growing, it is your job, not the attorney general's job, it is your job. >> we miss you in our living rooms every night. thank you so much, my friend, for being here. so, here is how, if you are one of the three people who hasn't listened to it yet, you are forgiven, but here's how you can do it. one and two of her new podcast

"ultra" are available right now, wherever you get your podcasts and the rest are to come. very soon. up next for us, how the midterm races, the first major election since the insurrection at the u.s. capitol are shaping up, and how january 6th is playing on the campaign trail. that's next. don't go anywhere. ♪ what will you do? ♪ what will you change? ♪ will you make something better? ♪ will you create something entirely new? ♪ our dell technologies advisors provide you with the tools and expertise you need to do incredible things. because we believe there's an innovator in all of us. there's a different way to treat hiv. it's every-other-month, injectable cabenuva. for adults who are undetectable, cabenuva is the only complete, long-acting hiv treatment you can get every other month. cabenuva helps keep me undetectable.

it's two injections, given by my healthcare provider, every other month. it's one less thing to think about while traveling. hiv pills aren't on my mind. a quick change in my plans is no big deal. don't receive cabenuva if you're allergic to its ingredients or taking certain medicines, which may interact with cabenuva. serious side effects include allergic reactions post-injection reactions, liver problems, and depression. if you have a rash and other allergic reaction symptoms, stop cabenuva and get medical help right away. tell your doctor if you have liver problems or mental health concerns, and if you are pregnant, breastfeeding, or considering pregnancy. some of the most common side effects include injection-site reactions, fever, and tiredness. if you switch to cabenuva, attend all treatment appointments. every other month, and i'm good to go. ask your doctor about every-other-month cabenuva. with downy infusions, let the scent set the mood. ♪

and i'm good to go. feel the difference with downy. ♪ hit it!♪ ♪it takes two to make a thing go right♪ ♪it takes two to make it outta sight♪ ♪one, two, get loose now! it takes two to make a-♪ get double rewards points this fall. book now at bestwestern.com.

i am not going to take a back seat to j.d. vance on law enforcement or anything else for that matter. the fact that on january 6th, we had 140 cops, united states capitol police, get injured, during the insurrection when they tried to overthrow the government, beat them upside the head with lead pipes, spray them with pepper spray. the cop got jammed into the door, right? j.d. vance raised money for the legal defense fund of the insurrectionists.

this is the kind of extremism, j.d. -- don't try to deny it. we have your twitter posts and everything else, everybody's seen it. he said, help these guys with their legal defense. can you imagine one guy saying out of one side of his mouth he's pro-cop and the other side of his mouth, he's raising money for the insurrectionists that were beating up the call toll police? the one guy got four years in prison. this is ridiculous. i'm not taking a back seat to you. i brought $500 million back to fund police in ohio. >> and that is how it's done. hi, everyone. 5:00 in new york. four weeks from right now, the american people will take part in the first major election in our country since the deadly assault on the u.s. capitol. and tim ryan may very well be onto something there. for so many republicans, not just his opponent j.d. vance, there remains a wide and shameful chasm between who they say their support and what their

inability to fully condemn january 6th and the big lie behind it actually means. many of these republicans appear to have developed a penchant for saying one thing in private, the other in public. exhibit 1-a, kevin mccarthy. a scoop from the upcoming book "unchec "unchecked: the story behind congress's botched impeachments of donald trump." mccarthy apparently exploded at jamie herrera butler for publicry revealing a contentious january 6th phone call between mccarthy and trump. on that particular tirade, which both politicians deny ever happened, we'll let "the post" take it from here. i alone am taking the heat to protect people from trump. i alone am holding the party together, mccarthy yelled during a meeting on february 25th, 2021. quote, i have been working with trump to keep him from going after republicans like you and

blowing up the party and destroying all our work, end quote. stunned by mccarthy's anger, she began to cry. she apologized not telling him ahead of time she had confirmed to the media details of a call she made to trump, urging him to tell his supporters to leave the capitol. you should have come to me, mccarthy said. why did you two to the press? what did you want me to do, lie? of course he wanted you to lie. and then there's lindsey graham. another republican that joined the endeavor to whitewash january 6th. former d.c. police officer michael fanone said in a meeting with officer who responded to the attack, graham told them this, quote, you guys should have shot them all in the head. we gave you guys guns and you should have used them. i don't understand why that didn't happen, end quote. those guys were trump

supporters. it brings us back to the midterms. in four weeks, americans will have to decide whether to support or reject politicians like mccarthy and graham who are evidently so critical of donald trump in the hours and days following the insurrection, only to so quickly fall back in line behind the twice impeached disgraced ex-president. it's where we begin the hour. jason johnson is here. he's a politics and journalism professor, the host of a word with jason johnson. he is also an msnbc contributor. also with us, haley v. miller, politics reporter for "usa today" network in ohio. and with me at the table, basil -- at hunter college. i always start with anyone who has the ability to come to the table, because i love it. what do you -- the tim ryan response was so strong. why not make abundantly clear,

you cannot be pro-cop and whitewash. >> that's why i take some of what bernie sanders said in his op-ed, not letting abortion be the only thing you run on. it has to be front and center, no question about it, but listen to tim ryan. we cannot lose the debate over who supports law enforcement to those guys. wes moore running for governor of maryland talks the same way. you read the reports of herschel walker getting this evangelical vote in georgia and talking about grace in his campaign, we cannot lose that vote, either. that's why i love that raphael warnock understands what james kohn talked about, that we should be social justice warriors. i want that guy winning in this election. and the concern that i have, the fear that i have, is that we cannot let republicans beat us on some of these issues that we are standing tall on, that we

democrats are standing tall on. so, that's why, with tim ryan, i want to see democrats support his race. there are reports that they're not. that's concerning. and my message -- >> tell mel more about that. >> well, because there's a sense that, you know, ohio is a -- is a battleground state and it's now not looking like that at all. and there is some concern that democrats, d.c. democrats are not supporting his race with outside -- with outside funding, that the burden is really on his campaign to raise the money. that's concerning. >> i mean, that's terribl. there's no one more dangerous than j.d. vance. >> when you listen to tim ryan talk, that's who we need in office. that blue collar democrat. if we can't elect him, we're in trouble. >> haley, take me inside how this is all playing out in ohio among voters. >> well, you know, to that point, you know, ohio has become more red over the years, and so, because of that, this race is very close right now.

i think 12r59 gists say tim ryan is probably running the most effective democratic campaign you can run in a state like this. but because of that and going back to the issue of january 6th, he has really run a sxan campaign on a range of issues, basically trying to get moderates, republicans who maybe didn't vote for president trump, to get those folks to come to the table instead of vance. >> let me show some of j.d. vance in talking about january 6th. this is more from the debate. let me show you this, jason johnson. >> this is the crowd that j.d. is running around with. the election deniers. the extremists. that's not ohio. that's not rob portman, that's not george voin vich, that's not sherrod brown. that's -- that's not for us. he's running with an extreme element that's very, very dangerous.

>> first of all, rob portman endorsed me, of course, and i find it interesting how preoccupied you are with this at a time when people can't afford groceries, people can't afford to walk down the street safely. let's focus on the significant issues right now, tim. >> so, jason, that's the oh, my insurrection is showing. let's talk about groceries. i mean, groceries, deadly serious issue for all american families, but it does not erase the need to explain your support for those who participated in the inrex. >> yeah, nicolle, this race and i spent a lot of time last night texting, i used to teach in ohio, taught there for years, talked to a lot of my former students paying attention to it. this race is the epitome of what the challenge is for a lot of democrats across the country. these are not issue campaigns anymore. the people who care about issues already know how they feel. if you're unhappy about the supreme court, you already know how you have voting about abortion. your opinion on january 6th isn't being changed what we're seeing in ohio is a lot like

what you're seeing in pennsylvania, somewhat like georgia. it's about personality. it's about authenticity. if you noticed, j.d. vance's issue has been, he's kind of a poser, he switched from one side to the other. when tim ryan attacks, he's like, hey, everybody i know, you know, back in youngstown, where ed o'neill is front, bundy from "married with children," everybody in my high school wouldn't let somebody like trump take their dignity on national television and then buddy up with him. this is about who represents the attitude of the state and the feelings about people in the state. it ain't about policy. nobody's making a policy organizement this late. you already know how you feel 30 days out. tim ryan is running a fantastic campaign. i would argue at some level he's happy it's not a race that people are paying attention to nationally, because that's the kind of thing that gins up republicans, but again, the state may be too red, there may be too much voter suppression for him to take over, but he ran a fantastic race and last

night's debate really hurt j.d. vance. all the chatter, all the chatter on the ground are people like, that guy looks soft and tim ryan looked like the kind of guy you want to get a beer with. >> and to mention your point, tim ryan had the ground softened by donald trump who got to the state and called j.d. vance basically the word trump used, i won't use it here, but basically said, you just kissed my ass. trump got there and emasculated him, and tim ryan came in and delivered the fatal blow and said, you're not rob portman, you know, you're something not defensible. in a state trending red, those are some deadly political blows. >> yeah, they are, and the thing is -- and you can't -- the ground has been softened also by j.d. vance himself. look, this is the same thing that joe biden was able to do when he went up against trump. j.d. vance is the guy who left your small town, went to state

college and comes back and doesn't remember anybody's name anymore. tim ryan is working at his dad's, you know, mechanic shop, right, and is still the same sort of grease monkey has he been and is trying to go to community college. everybody sees that guy. and nobody likes anybody like j.d. vance. his only way of winning is by saying, i'm another vote for mitch mcconnell, because if you are talking about who is actually real ohio, from personality, attitude and belief, it's the guy from youngstown. >> i would just say very quickly, that's the concern that i have. none of these folks, whether it's vance or dr. oz or herschel walker, they're vehicles, they're vessels. that's all that they are for this sort of message and the policy and the courts -- they're vessels, and that is the -- if we -- and i understand that, you know, it's not really a policy debate and i get that, but in a way it is also -- >> or a values thing. a values thing. if you value owning the libs, if you value whatever their smears are, whatever their attack is.

i know what you're saying. it's like transferable. >> that's exactly right. and so, we just have to be democrats have to be mindful that it's not just a disagreement on policy. this is a conversation about values and it is a conversation about how you want to change our government for the next generation. it is a generational change. >> let me show you what adam kin zinger is doing. i wouldn't have shown this to all three of you, but to this point of these guys just as vessels, when you have prominent republicans saying, don't vote for the vessel, i want to hear your thoughts on where this might work. >> the most important thing that we can deal with in november, that we can vote on, is based on, do you actually believe in democracy? you know, we're going to argue tax rates forever. we're going db probably going to argue abortion forever, eve some of the hot topics out there, but the one thing we can't continue arguing if we lose it, are we going to be a self-governing nation. and you have so many people out there convincing half of the

country, or trying to convince half the country that the election system didn't work, that their vote was stolen. democracy and self-governance cannot survive if they live in a bed of lies. so, it's me, look at this, okay, is the tax rate the most important thing? some false allegiance to a party that you don't even know what it stands for anymore? is that important? or is it defense of democracy? >> so, haley, i saw this and i actually thought about georgia, and i wondered if this was the kind of state where chipping away at some of that red, some of that republican margin might have an impact, if this message is prominent in the final four weeks. anyone talking about these attacks and these messages from within the republican party about the danger that j.d. vance represents to democracy? >> so, there are actually some republican groups, groups of republicans, you know, who are kind of more the establishment party back in the day, who are not necessarily trump supporters, who have put some

money into ohio's race who are kind of campaigning in their own way across the state speaking out against vance, saying what, you know, kinzinger was saying just there, arguing vance is a threat to democracy, because of his comments on the 2020 election, january 6th, whether these groups have enough momentum to really make a dent in the vote in november remains to be seen, but that definitely is part of the conversation in ohio's race. >> because a lot of those kind of republicans that haley is talking about are prominent former -- some of them may still be republicans, from ohio. kasich was a never trump republican before it had a political infrastructure. let me put out the list of endorsements from adam kinzinger. it's interesting. it seems thoughtful from his standpoint. so, shapiro, he endorses against mastriano. katie hobbs against what's her name, karrie lake. raffensperger is a republican he

endorsed on the other end of the call with trump, refused to overturn and find him his missing votes. the rest of them are democrats. in the governor's races. talk, basil, if you think enough attention has been paid -- on the show yesterday, they say if karrie lake and some of the deniers win, we are going to be doing live shots from places like arizona talking about our democracy being in much worse shape. >> i think all of these endorsements help, absolutely right. they may not work in certain areas of the country, they may only work in certain states and certain house races, but every little bit hurts. my only caution, it is not to be -- it is not to supplement the work that democrats should be doing on their own, to elect their own. and i say that because there's so many leaders that are running across the country, we've got many folks running for governor and senate that are young. they are the future of the party. and if the democratic -- >> future of the country. >> that's absolutely right.

and if the party can't find a way to make sure that they have their full-throated support, you're going to lose them and the voters that supported them for a very, very long time. so, it's important that kinzinger and liz cheney are out there supporting democratic candidates, but it should not supplant what democrats should be doing. >> it sounds like you are not satisfied with sort of the money and effort going into some of these tougher races. i mean, talking about ohio being really hard for democrats and you understand they're not pouring resources into places like that? >> it's a little concerning if i'm reading reports about it, because if that's happening, that means it's far worse than what's being reported. if you have someone like tim ryan coming on "morning joe" and saying i'm representing parts of the party -- normally talk to, how are we supposed to get elected if you are not coming out here and supporting me? that's concerning, because if you take away anything from

georgia two years ago, they sent out candidates to run in races everywhere for everything. as a former party leader, one of the hardest things to do is to recruit folks to run for office in some of these rural parts of the country. and in the suburbs. so, we can't underestimate how important that is, not only in georgia, but in ohio and other states. >> jason, i'll give you the last word. >> there is absolutely no way i can support anybody throwing their endorsement behind raffensperger. just because he told donald trump i'm not going to cheat doesn't mean he's not continuing to suppress the vote in georgia, which is why i never trust most of these never trumpers. raffensperger is a problem. and supporting people who believe in democracy is across the board supporters of democracy. somebody running for secretary of state in georgia cares about everyone having access to vote. if you look at anybody that happened in that state in 2018 and now, where you didn't have power cords there in time for

voting machines that happened to be a majority black areas, you can't support anything like raffensperger, even if you did the one right thing that you're supposed to do. >> i'm always glad when i give you the last word. on this program, when i asked raffensperger about the voter suppression law, why did you need it, if there was no fraud, if you are thrice audited vote didn't have fraud, why did you need the law? thank you very much. when we come back, with four weeks to go before election day, there is new reporting about why racist state legislatures, ones that go unnoticed at the national level, could be hugely important to our democracy ahead of 2024, especially now that the supreme court could give state lawmakers absolute power over

federal elections. we'll explain and we'll bring you that reporting next. plus, how one of the disgraced twice impeached exlawyers found herself enmeshed in an obstruction of justice investigation in connection with doj's ongoing criminal inquiry into those government documents that ended up with trump at his florida golf club. what she shared with investigators on friday. we'll tell you about it. and later, the russian missile assault against civilian targets all across ukraine is once again putting the spotlight on the dire humanitarian situation in that country. our friend dr. irwin redliner will join us live from lviv where schools and hospitals are grappling with the specter of ongoing russian strikes targeting civilians there. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. eak. don't go anywhere. ow that? the company profile tool, in thinkorswim®. yes, i love you!! td ameritrade. award-winning customer service that has your back.

it only takes a second for an everyday item to become dangerous. tide pods child-guard pack helps keep your laundry pacs in a safe place and your child safer. to close, twist until it clicks. tide pods child-guard packaging. ♪♪ here goes nothing. hey greg. um...hello? it's me, your heart! really? yes! recording an ekg in 30 seconds. tada!

wow that was fast! good news, pal. i'm not detecting any of the six most common arrhythmias. what next? let's get some fresh air. been cooped up for too long. yeah... ♪♪ get kardia mobile card at kardia.com or amazon. (vo) get the new iphone 14 pro on us. right now t-mobile is including apple business essentials so you can easily manage your team's devices. on the network with more 5g coverage. only from t-mobile for business.

as a business owner, your bottom line is always top of mind. so start saving by switching to the mobile service designed for small business: comcast business mobile. flexible data plans mean you can get unlimited data or pay by the gig. all on the most reliable 5g network. with no line activation fees or term contracts. saving you up to $500 a year. and it's only available to comcast business internet customers. so boost your bottom line by switching today. comcast business. powering possibilities. ™ michael is back. and he's more dangerous. maybe the only way he can die...

is if i die too. [ screaming ] with all eyes on the midterm elections that are less than one month away now and control of the house and senate very much up for grabs, overlooked state ledge slay chif races may be key to not just shaping the policy decisions that impact american lives, but ensuing that we continue to have free and fair elections. ominously, we don't. "new york times" is reporting this, quote, clashes for control of several other narrowly divided chambers in battleground states have taken on importance at a time when state legislatures are ever more powerful. with congress often deadlocked and conservatives dominating the supreme court, state governments increasingly steer the direction of voting laws, abortion access, gun policy, and other issues dominating the lives of americans. adding that due to a case before

the supreme court this term, quote, state legislatures could have a pathway to overrule the popular vote in presidential elections by refusing to certify the results and instead sending their own slates of electors. joining us now is the author of that brand new reporting, from whom we know a lot. you have been writing these in depth stories about what's really going on where it matters in the states, what they're doing. take me inside sort of the state of the state leg slayive battles. >> so, state legislatures have been important to the daily lives of americans through local state budgets, school funding, issues like that, but you know, with recent supreme court decisions, they've taken on a really central role in now the national political battles are being fought, so issues like abortion, gun laws, voting laws, all that is getting, you know, kind of meeted out at the state legislative level.

so, this year alone, those factors have made state legislative races that much more critical. and in the united states, there's complete single party control of state legislatures either by republicans or democrats in 47 states. so, there's no kind of check on how one party wants to take these policies. looking ahead at the upcoming elections, there's a case before the supreme court known as the independent state legislature theory you were just talking about, and what that says is that state legislatures, because the constitution says state legislatures set the time and manner of elections, that they therefore -- this theory says that they therefore have kind of supreme authority over federal elections, and that state courts, including state supreme courts have no check on these state legislatures. so, they could pass extremely restrictive voting laws, anything of that matter, with no state court checking them. and as we've seen in the federal

courts, they will not hear gerrymandering cases and they also have been, you know, have held up many of the restrictive voting laws. if we go into the doomsday scenario of that, though, which is saying that this theory could provide a pretext, if a single state legislature would be displeased with the behavior of a local election official and declare the election was rife with fraud, they could use this theory as a pretext for sending their -- an alternate slate of e leg tomorr electors. but at least democrats and some legal experts like the brennan center have said this could be a doomsday scenario possibility. and when we look at what's made up some of these state legislatures that are controlled by republicans, we see at least 44% from a story we did earlier this year of current state legislative republican incumbents took steps to try and overturn the 2020 election. so when you kind of add all this up and look at these battles for

state ledge slay childrens that are, you know, in some states like michigan and arizona where democrats are trying to flip a chamber and in nevada and maine, where democrats are defending chamber, you realize it's more than just the state budgets this year, it's issues like abortion and voting laws and it is also potentially the future of federal or presidential elections, i should say, that could hang in the balance. >> nick, as always, your reporting terrifies me, but let me just press you on doomsday. i mean, isn't this where we could be in georgia? they changed the laws and the state legislature has the power that it didn't have two years ago, right? >> yeah, so, even without the supreme court decision, a state legislature could pass a law before an election kind of changing how electors would be, you know, approved in a presidential election. now, that would obviously get a lot of challenges in courts and state courts and federal courts. it would be a very significant battle.

but what they did in georgia was a little bit more subtle. they're saying they can take over a local county election office. if they find, you know, the inability to, you know, fairly conduct an election. and when you look at the republican tilt of the legislature and the history of voting laws that have been passed in georgia, that concerns a lot of democrats in a major city like fulton, where the local county election board is actually under investigation right now. but what that would be would be kind of the beginning steps, i think, of what would eventually get to this doomsday scenario. they would still need the supreme court to -- or to uphold the independent state legislature theory if they were to go all the way down that. we did is see some states try to pass a new elector law. there were bills introduced in arizona saying the state legislature could decide to appoint their own slate of electors if they so choose. they didn't pass. and, you know, it is also possible that should the supreme

court rule one way or another, we might see more laws like that. it's a little bit unknown. and there is some debate over state legislative authority to even appoint these electors, but it's enough of an uncertainty that a lot of democrats and some election experts are pretty concerned about it. >> nick, i want to ask you one question about this election. you've covered all the voter suppression laws, we've been talking about them this hour. do you think it will be easier to thwart election results being sort of certified and election night ending in a night or couple of nights already? do you think the changes in laws in, i think 36 states, have already changed their voting laws since 2020. what do you expect on election night in november this year? >> i think the biggest thing we need to be prepared for is that election night will not be determ

determinative. there's key battleground states, michigan, wisconsin, pennsylvania, that won't preprocess their ballots. i've yet to hear a reason as to why you can't preprocess ballots. not tabulate, simply open them, flatten them, prepare them. michigan has allowed for two days, but with the amount of voters voting absentee now since the 2020 election, that's still not enough time. there's going to be unknowns. in a close race, we might be waiting until wednesday, thursday, friday, to find out who controls the senate. and i think as we we've seen in the past, those -- that period where there's uncertainty, there's a lot of opportunity for chaos. and for bad actors to seize on the uncertainty and try and claim -- make false claims of fraud. point to, you know, videos circulating on social media, deceptively edited, to try and forward their argument about fraud to try and either create more uncertainty and challenge and election or possibly, you know, take steps to overturn it.

and i think there's also a lot of lessons learned from 2020 from those bad actors who want to try and challenge an election. they know they need, you know, good lawyers with more evidence than just signed affidavits after the fact, so, there's been preparations, i think, on both sides to prepare for more legal challenges, with more evidence, training poll watchers on the republican side to look for more fraud and train poll watchers 0en the democratic side to try to protect their voters' success. so, i think there's going to be more -- for lack of a better word, professional effort on both sides at the ballot box as they fight over voting, but i don't think we can really say whether anyone will be successful in thwarting a legitimate attempt. mostly election officials i talk to are very prepared for this. they say, yes, we know there's issues and we're concerned about them, but we're also preparing for them. and we're going to have staff ready for this. but while it looks frightening and there's certainly a good

reason to be concerned and alarmed, there's also, you know, some preparation by local election officials and state election officials that they think, okay, we know a storm's coming, but we're going to do the best we can to be ready for it. >> every time, i mean, every -- while nick's talking, everything brings me back to shaye moss and ruby freeman, if more people will go through their hell. i can't help but worry there will be more. >> in addition -- what's complicated is there is a 96% incumbency rate in state legislature. i also want to make a plug for other elections, like school board elections, district attorneys. of the almost 2,500 elected district attorneys in this country, 95% of them are white. so, if you want to push through criminal justice reform, how do you do that with a population like that? so, for all of these policies, state elections, local elections, matter. >> all right, to be continued.

nick, jason, basil, thank you for being with us today. ahead for us, new reporting about trump's attorney christina bobb and how she became involved in an obstruction of justice investigation surrounding the top secret documents taken by the disgraced ex-president to his private gulf club in florida. we have new reporting on what she told investigators about the case, next. your record label is taking off. but so is your sound engineer. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. visit indeed.com/hire ♪ what will you do? ♪ what will you change?

♪ will you make something better? ♪ will you create something entirely new? ♪ our dell technologies advisors provide you with the tools and expertise you need to do incredible things. because we believe there's an innovator in all of us.

we are learning more --

inside the disgraced ex-president's legal goings on. and how one of his lawyers has been ensnared already in an obstruction of justice already. "the new york times" has new reporting on christina bobb. she signed the affidavit saying trump no longer possessed white house documents. "the times" reports that bobb wasn't even familiar with the lead trump attorney. he asked her to sign the document. remember, she was new. the writing is, quote, wait a minute, i don't know you, ms. bobb replied to more cork ran's request. she later complained she did not have a full grasp of what was going on around her. sounds like a great lawyer to me. that's according to two people who have heard her account. "the times" also says that in an interview on friday, bobb told

doj prosecutors that boris epstein contacted her the night before she signed this document, telling her she needed to go to mar-a-lago to deal with a, quote, unspecified legal matter for trump. let's bring in katie benner and back with us, our good friend joyce vance. both msnbc contributors. katie, take me through this new reporting. >> sure, so, christina bobb, she has spoken with federal investigators. she came in voluntarily. she was not put in front of a grand jury. she went in because she feels that she wants to cooperate and that she wants to tell the truth. and very likely she sees herself as becoming the fall person for, you know, for misbehavior she does not want to take credit for and very likely leads to people above her, other lawyers and possibly even donald trump. >> it doesn't sound like good legal work to sign something you haven't seen or don't no anything about. is that a defense if she's in the investigation? >> it's not a very good one,

nicolle, and her conduct really goes beyond just signing this statement. that's certainly one of the places where she could find herself in trouble. there is, perhaps, other conduct, as well, where she's concealing crimes committed by other people, which is a federal crime, so, it's a little bit surprising that she'd speak to doj voluntarily, with though guarantees that what she says can't be used against her. one suspects that at a minimum, she was -- >> this was in the story, katie, in the past two years, bobb has emerged as one of trump's truest of true believers, embracing conspiracy theories with a fervor that have at times seemed over the top, even to her colleagues. dominion voting systems is suing

bobb and oan for promoting unsubstantiated claims for the company. part of a -- saying it was part of a vote-switching scheme to favor joe biden. she offered a dour after action report of the failed attempt to appoint alternate electors to overturn the election in a previously indy closed memo she sent to trump while working for oan. i mean, she seems to have a bit of a pileup of legal issues. what is it that doj ostensibly gleaned from her? i mean, the story has sort of a tick tock of how the lies were told. is she a path way to cork ran? >> she'd be a pathway to him or boris epstein, who is one of donald trump's closest advisers, been an important adviser to him since leaving the white house. and she might be able to have other information about what people may or may not have said regarding these documents. now, to your point, when you

point out that she is an ardent believer in some of the conspiracy theories, it is difficult to imagine her flipping, ie, you know, turning on donald trump, it is also difficult to imagine her having the goods to do so. even so, though, she is somebody that can hopefully provide the justice department with facts that lead them elsewhere and facts that lead them to other witnesses or other documents, other pieces of evidence. i think that would be her most important role, largely because, you know, the idea that she would actually turn on donald trump, i think, is very unlikely. >> this is apparently, joyce, what she offered about mr. corcoran, who may be of interest in all of this. according to the reporting, she told the justice department he had walked her through how he had conducted a search of a storage facility at mar-a-lago. she said she believed when she signed the paperwork, it was

accurate. she said she heard trump tell corcoran they should cooperate with the justice department and give prosecutors what they wanted. didn't they want all those documents? what's the significance to you, joyce? >> you know, absolutely, what doj was after was everything that belonged to them and that's not what they got. there's a lot here that's interesting, not the least of which is that she was apparently in a room with trump when trump was talking about the documents issues before the search warrant was executed. something you definitely like to have access to, if you are a prosecutor, is what trump was saying, what trump knew, what he acknowledged in these meetings. are they covered by the attorney/client privilege, you know, this is trump talking with two of his lawyers, so, there would have to be some kind of waiver of attorney/client

privilege or using the crime/fraud exception to the privilege to defeat it. but there's a lot of rich material here and it is very interesting if as reports these sort of revelations are being made by bobb to doj investigators. >> katie, your body of reporting on all of the doj equities in all of this is second to none. take me inside, if you step back, how does -- what are doj's principles that they're trying to preserve? it's become run of the mill for lawyers to lie on behalf of donald trump, it's hard to keep straight. bobb lied for trump because she was told to do it -- does that matter to doj? are they interested in holding lawyers accountable? >> what they're interested in doing is trying to figure out whether or not they can prove the three criminal statutes that they laid out in the search warrant materials that were made public this summer. whether or not donald trump violated thes peonage act, whether or not he, you know,

wrongfully withheld national security secrets, whether or not he lied about it and tried to obstruct the investigation. and so when you look at the lawyers, the lawyers are a path to knowing more about that. we've, you know, we know that fairly early on, the justice department's prosecutors knew that somebody had not been truthful and that atesation was not correct. and there was conversation, what do we do about that? do we press the lawyers? do we have to criminally prosecute them or are they are path to more information to hopefully decide whether or not one or more of those three statutes can be proven for a jury in a court of law? and we see the way they are treating christna bobb in this situation. they seem to be seeing her as a path to information. it's not about criminally charging every lawyer who has ever lied on behalf of donald trump, but truly, who is this person, what does she know? she was a key player, because of what she saw. and will that help us, once

again, stepping back, charge any of those three crimes. >> joyce, i want your thoughts on the same question and as katie's talking, i mean, don mcgahn offered the same kind of road map to donald trump's obstruction of justice of the mueller investigation. do you see her as that kind of witness or does her history as a true believer of the conspiracy theorys make her a complicated wit nbc that regard? >> she is a complicated witness. and it's hard to believe that she's had this sudden about-face, where she'll part ways with the former president, because she's so bought into the conspiracy theories. but i think katie's reporting is accurate here. this notion that doj would be most interested in going after the person who is the most culpable here, and that's donald trump, who took classified material when he left the government, who knowingly kept it at mar-a-lago, who refused to turn it over, who obstructed justice. if you are doj, you are interested and perhaps have sort

of your laser sights on the former president, so you're looking for witnesses who can help tell the story, who can provide evidence, who can get you to the next level, because your obligation here if you are the justice department, to prosecute the most responsible person, that's trump. >> katie, joyce, thank you so much for making sense of it for us. when we come back, we will head to ukraine, where our friend dr. irwin redliner is there helping ukrainian children at a time when their city of lviv is once again a target of russian missiles. stay with us.

ever leave your clothes in the dryer and find a wrinkled mess? try downy wrinkle guard fabric softener! wrinkle guard penetrates deep into fibers, leaving clothes so soft, wrinkles don't want to stick around. make mornings smoother with downy wrinkle guard fabric softener. moderate to severe eczema still disrupts my skin. despite treatment it disrupts my skin with itch. it disrupts my skin with rash. but now, i can disrupt eczema with rinvoq. rinvoq is not a steroid, topical, or injection. it's one pill, once a day, that's effective without topical steroids. many taking rinvoq saw clear or almost-clear skin while some saw up to 100% clear skin. plus, they felt fast itch relief

some as early as 2 days. that's rinvoq relief. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections and blood clots, some fatal, cancers including lymphoma and skin cancer, death, heart attack, stroke, and tears in the stomach or intestines occurred. people 50 and older with at least one heart disease risk factor have higher risks. don't take if allergic to rinvoq, as serious reactions can occur. tell your doctor if you are or may become pregnant. disrupt the itch and rash of eczema. talk to your doctor about rinvoq. learn how abbvie can help you save. there's a different way to treat hiv. it's every-other-month, injectable cabenuva. for adults who are undetectable, cabenuva is the only complete, long-acting hiv treatment you can get every other month. cabenuva helps keep me undetectable. it's two injections, given by my healthcare provider, every other month. it's one less thing to think about while traveling. hiv pills aren't on my mind. a quick change in my plans is no big deal. don't receive cabenuva if you're allergic to its ingredients or taking certain medicines,

which may interact with cabenuva. serious side effects include allergic reactions post-injection reactions, liver problems, and depression. if you have a rash and other allergic reaction symptoms, stop cabenuva and get medical help right away. tell your doctor if you have liver problems or mental health concerns, and if you are pregnant, breastfeeding, or considering pregnancy. some of the most common side effects include injection-site reactions, fever, and tiredness. if you switch to cabenuva, attend all treatment appointments. every other month, and i'm good to go. ask your doctor about every-other-month cabenuva. people remember ads and i'm good to go. with young people having a good time. so to help you remember that liberty mutual customizes your home insurance, here's a pool party. ♪ good times. insurance! ♪ only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

in the wake of deadly missile strikes all across ukraine, president joe biden along with other g-7 member nations held an emergency meeting earlier today. they were joined by ukrainian president zelenskyy who asked for new air defense systems to protect his country and a fresh round of sanctions to punish russia now that it's entered a new more violent phase of the war targeting civilian populations. russia's attacks continued today targeting 12 regions across the country, including kyiv, killing at least 19 people and injuring 105 according to nbc news. the aerial attacks began targeting critical infrastructure and those civilian targets, leaving cities like lviv without power for a large part of the day. with us live, nbc public health analyst, professor after

pediatrics at the einstein college of medicine and cofounder of the ukraine children's action product, to provide urgent mental health and support to displaced and impacted ukrainian children. first, tell us if you're safe and what your witnessing. >> i'm here with karen, the other cofounder, and we have taken refuge in the hotel we're staying in. these are serious attacks. the last time i was here it was also hearing the alarms, went to the basement and nothing happened, because lviv has been basically off limits until yesterday, and they took quite a beating. so it's a pretty intense situation for us. but not as intention for us as it is for families and children who are in lviv. it's just unbelievable. the physical damage is enormous. infrastructure damage needs a lot, but at the end of the day, we're looking at a lot of

children and by at least anecdotes, every child you hear about has been terrified be this recent round of attacks, even the kids far away from the front who are living in lviv now. so we're dealing with severe psychological trauma that's going to need to be tended to. if you think about it we're going to end up with children in a severe way traumatized, also not going to school and fearing bad combinations in the future. >> the campaign of terrorism, which is what it is by vladimir putin, has targeted the civilian population, which includes all these children. how does the world respond to a terror campaign being waged against children? >> well, it's just unbelievable. i don't think anybody really expected in the year 2022 to

have this kind of violence directed against a civilized society. and i think ultimately putin will be held accountable in the world court. and that will happen, it can't come too soon. but the first thing that has to happen is the war must stop. it's just incredible. and there's difference of opinion among analysts and experts about whether the war should stop as zelenskyy defeats putin in this horrible battle -- and by the way, zelenskyy and ukraine are surrogates for u.s. and the west, and so we think of ourselves as in this conflict, really with russia. and we're supplying a lot of weapons. but -- and we should, but at the end of the day, we have to stop traumatizing the civilian population. it is absolutely terrorism. there's just no two ways about it. and it's very, very sad. we listened today in a listening session with randy weingarten

and her crew from american federation of teachers. they gathered together many, many teacher from all the different provinces and areas that are under siege, and we heard these harrowing stories of what's happening. by the way, it's also the teachers, not just the kids in their classrooms. and they are themselves very, very -- in a very difficult straight. 22,000 teachers have been displaced from the east and the south, and there's actually population chaos here. it's especially difficult for the children. >> doctor, let me restate the requests from all of us that you and karen stay safe. thank you for spending some time with us today. quick break for us. we will be right back. whenever heartburn strikes get fast relief with tums. it's time to love food back. ♪ tum tum tum tum tums ♪ when your v-neck looks more like a u-neck,

that's when you know, it's half-washed. downy has 7 benefits that condition and smooth fibers so clothes look newer, longer. feel the difference with downy. ♪ what will you do? ♪ what will you change? ♪ will you make something better? ♪ will you create something entirely new? ♪ our dell technologies advisors provide you with the tools and expertise you need to do incredible things. because we believe there's an innovator in all of us.

there's a reason comcast business powers more businesses than any other provider. actually, there's a few... comcast business offers the fastest, reliable network... the protection of security edge... and the most reliable 5g network. want me to keep going? i can... whether your business is starting or growing,

you need comcast business. technology solutions that put you ahead get started with fast speeds and advanced security together for $69.99 a month for 12 months. plus find out how to get up to a $650 prepaid card with a qualifying bundle.

thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these truly extraordinary times. we are so grateful. "the beat" with ari melber starts right now. hi, ari. >> hi, thank you so much. i'm ari melber tonight we have a lot for you, including the justice department trying to get the supreme court itself, the highest court in the land, of course, to slap down donald trump as he tries to appeal in that mar-a-lago case. we have that for you. and michael cohen live on "the beat" tonight talking about how trump and others have tried to subvert justice and what matter rights now. i also have one of my special reports for you tonight. this one is about justice in america and rikers island. we have been working on this. it's our special report. we think it matters and by the end of the hour we will share that with you. but we begin with this battle for the control of congress right now. hear that music and you know we