rights, and the false distinction between, as we've discussed before on the show and other shows, between kitchen table issues and democracy, which is also a kitchen table issue. everything is a kitchen table issue. rebecca, thank you so much for your time and for your reporting. appreciate it. >> this quick programming note, john fetterman is going to be interviewed by lawrence o'donnell on the last -- in just over an hour. don't miss that. that's all in on this tuesday night. alex wagner tonight starts right now. good evening, alex. >> good evening, alex. >> good evening, manny. thanks for another great show. and thank you at home for joining us this hour. and just a moment, i'll be joined by rachel maddow. you may know her as the host of the rachel maddow show, but she also just came out with a brand-new podcast that is so gangbusters did, it is about one of the only sedition trials and our nation's history. we're gonna talk further about that in just a moment. but first, let's talk about the sedition trial that's happening

today after a break for the holiday weekend, the day, federal prosecutors in washington, d.c., resumed prosecuting a case against five members of the oath keepers on charges of seditious conspiracy, or trying to overthrow the government. last week -- zeroed in on the group's founder, stewart rhodes. but today's -- former afghanistan veteran. her name is jessica watkins. -- introduced evidence that watkins discussed cutting off pool cues to serve as antifa smasher is. -- she sought to recruit and train people to join the oath keepers. if it convicted of seditious conspiracy, watkins and her fellow defendants face up to 20 years behind bars. there's been a lot of wrangling on the radar. but today's trial is important because it's another example of individual accountability.

and this, case accountability for a small group that's not tweens flicked significant damage. individual accountability does not on its own get to the root of the problem, especially here let's take, for example, the case of what happened to d.c. metropolitan police officer michael funnel on january 6th. i should warn you that some of what we're gonna show is graphic. if you don't to see it, now is your time to turn away. this is the image that made officer flannel famous. it's a snapshot taken moments after he was dragged out of a police line in front of the capital on january 6th and beaten and tased repeatedly at the base of his call. it's also moments before a member of the mob beat him with a flag, saying blue lives matter. thanks to his body cam footage, we have detailed evidence of what happened to him that day. he's self deployed. he saw in the news what was happening on the capitol. he went where help was needed.

we can hear for ourselves how he eventually got the crowd to stop attacking him by pleading with them that he had children. we >> i have kids! [noise] >> we can see for ourselves as fanone is pulled from the attack having suffered a heart attack and a traumatic brain individually -- injury. we can see who the people who assaulted him are. that's how the fbi found this man, who has since been found guilty of dragging him into the crowd, saying, i got one. or this man, who is also since pleaded guilty, we can hear on fanone's body cam -- kill him with his own game. -- taking it home as a souvenir.

where the man accused of tasing fanone repeatedly. none of these men were oath keepers. they weren't organized. they didn't have a plan. yet, they did horrible, violent things together. officer fanone just published a book about his experience. it's called hold the line. the insurrection and one cops battle for america's soul. in it, he describes his assailants as, quote, independent losers who became involved and within the mob. but there's connective tissue between groups like the oath keepers and the proud boys, and members of the general crowd on january 6th. when fbi agents asked the man who tased fanone when he traveled to d.c. for january 6th, the man said, quote, trump called us. trump called us to d.c.. unfortunately, the basic facts of what happened on january 6th and trump's role and inciting the events of that there -- that's all now become a matter of partisan debate. republicans in congress have done everything they can to

downplay trumps involvement and sullen alternative set of facts to the american public about january 6th. so officer fanone has made it his personal mission to be sure that the story of that day as told correctly, and that everyone responsible, up to former president trump, is held responsible. fanone showed everyone who would watch his body cam footage. he testified before the january six committee and told his story in excruciating detail. here's a voice mail that officer fanone received after testifying to the january six committee about how he was brutally beaten. >> first safety message. >> this is from michael fanone. metropolitan police officer. you're on trial right now lying and, you want an emmy? an oscar? what are you trying to go for here? i wish they would've killed all use comebacks. because you people are scum. they stole the election from trump and you know that. you scumbag.

and you bleep -- too bad he didn't beat the shut out of you more. >> as much as i'd love to say that that was an outlier, that the voice mail is uncommon, i don't think it is. pulling from the summer shows that more republicans believe that january 6th was illegitimate protests than they did a year before. you can see that green line, the percentage of republicans who think the january 6th was a legitimate protest, jumping nearly 15 points in a year. and that red line, that's the amount of republicans who view january 6th as an insurrection. and it dropped 20%. we even, and maybe especially, within the police force itself, officer fanone has been ostracized for trying to tell the truth. in his book, fanone rights, the personal animosity towards me has grown so strong that some police leaders worry that if i returned to street patrol, i might end up like frank cervical. -- shot under mysterious

circumstances in 1971 and nearly died awaiting especially delayed response. that animosity would lead to fanone's decision to leave the police force. we now know that them namaste fanone felt within that force might also not be an outlier. -- 373 individuals who are both members of the oath keepers and are currently serving in law enforcement agencies across the country. yes. those of keepers. the one who were on trial for suggestion. today, the department of justice updated its running count of how many people -- january 6th. 880 defendants have been arrested so far. 412 of those individuals have pleaded guilty. 21 of been found guilty at trial. those numbers include the oath keepers who are on trial for sedition today. what those numbers don't include are the people who

incited january 6th. those people, including former president trump, have yet to be held to account and any serious way. this thursday, january six committee will hold its next hearing. one of the people who will be there, watching, seeing how the committee lays out its case and tries to get the history right, is officer michael fanone. joining us now is former metropolitan, d.c. police officer, michael fanone. officer, michael, thanks for joining me today. thanks for sharing your story with the american public and excruciating detail. >> thanks for having me. >> i just want to start with that stat we mention in the beginning of the segment about the number of people who are in law enforcement who also belong to a group like the oath keepers. as someone who served in law enforcement, does that surprise you? did that surprise you when you heard that statistic? >> no, it doesn't surprise me at all. unfortunately, we've seen a

growing trend, i would say, ever since 2015, 2016, of law enforcement officers, members of the military, joining up with groups like the oath keepers and proud boys, three percenters. i think that a lot of the rhetoric these groups used to recruit law enforcement officers is the idea that there preserving our republic. that they're fighting to preserve democracy. but in reality, they have very perverse version of what democracy actually is. >> you are a trump supporter. you voted for him in 2016. is that right. >> i did vote for donald trump in 2016. in 2016, i was a single issue voter. my issue was law enforcement. and i felt that time that donald trump and the republican

party best representative law enforcement. >> did you see between 2016 and 2020 inside law enforcement the sort of mushrooming of this kind of oath keeper proud boy like seditious behavior when you are in the ranks? did you see that among men and women who supported the president at the time? >> not so much the extremist ideology. when i experienced was a reaction to what police officers where experience post ferguson. we saw a lot of politicians using what i would say was dangerous rhetoric against law enforcement. and it resulted in law enforcement officers in many cases being targeted. we saw the assassination of police officers in dallas, texas. we saw the assassination of police officers and louisiana. and here in new york city. i went to many of those

officers funerals, and that had a chilling effect within the ranks of police officers, especially uniformed police officers. >> and what was it about trump's message that appeals pull on forsman officials? what was it that was so catalytic in terms of fostering this allegiance, if you will? >> i mean, i think it was him vocalizing support for law enforcement. we felt as though we've been abandoned by the democratic party, at least many of us did at least, we saw this blind loyalty to monty what. but it was only early on -- it was not productive. >> what was it that revealed the danger?

>> listen, i'm not gonna lie. i was attracted to his bombastic approach, and i'm not a big fan of politicians in general. so watching him make other politicians uneasy appealed to me for a time. then i realized how counterproductive it was. and as a police officer, i didn't see things getting better, i saw them getting worse. we need politicians who are going to facilitate constructive conversation between law enforcement in the communities we serve. and what donald trump was doing was actually dividing law enforcement. and making it more difficult to interact with these communities, and vice versa. >> it sounds like you made a break before january six. i want to talk about what happened that day in the aftermath. because you took your caused the hill. you might republicans in congress, urging them to call out the events of january 6th.

and you've met with republicans who are in leadership, like kevin without coffee, whose poised to become speaker of the house. -- leader mccarthy, because there's been new reporting about the sense of danger he felt like he wasn't on january 6th, and then, of course, his actions after january 6th which have not been exactly to hold the former president accountable. >> i had pretty low expectations going into all those meetings. >> when was that? >> i think many americans -- like many americans, i've come to expect little to nothing for my elected leaders. what did shock me was the level of indifference that i experienced from people like kevin mccarthy and many of the other republican leaders, and just members of congress that i'm that with. specifically the indifference they showed not only to me, who

is they're trying to represent the other officers that responded to the capitol that day, and fought to defend democracy, and the lives of individuals in the building, but also the indifference he showed towards -- gladys sicknick. this is the mother of a fall in police officer, and many of these people, like kevin mccarthy, and in one particular instance, lindsey graham, they took an adversarial position with this woman who was looking for answers. >> indifference is one word for it. by think what is so striking to someone on the outside of this is there is reporting tonight that on january 6th, mccarthy is on the phone with president trump saying they're trying to effing kill me. this is someone who's terrified for his life. and in subsequent days, can't acknowledge to you or publicly

what happened that day. it's not indifference? or is that aiding and abetting someone who's trying to tear down democratic institutions. i guess i wonder if i would describe more enough areas motives to someone who so clearly understand the stakes that day. the danger, the peril. not just individually, but to the country. and in the months since, has done anything but lead on the issue. >> what i would describe as that -- i don't know if it rises to the level of criminal culpability. >> and i'm not suggesting, but -- >> certainly, there's a moral and ethical obligation that i believe our politicians have. and you know, kevin mccarthy has failed to meet that threshold, i think, time and time again. it's disappointing. >> that any of it shock you after you left those meetings? effectively having failed in your quest? >> i don't know if i failed in my quest, necessarily, with

those events. i mean, i went there, i met with kevin mccarthy, i had an opportunity to speak with him. i recorded that conversation. and i was able to expose elements of his indifference. what i saw is a calculated approach to the events of january six. like, let me assure you, and their people out there that are much better versed in kevin mccarthy than me. but kevin mccarthy really wants to be speaker of the house. and he will do anything to be speaker of the house. you know. he's not concerned about his legacy. he's only concerned with retaining power and obtaining that position. so what he did was, in the immediate aftermath of january 6th, he sought for what it was. you voice that. vocalized on the house floor. and when he realized it was gonna be politically disadvantageous to stay that course, he reversed course.

he went down to mar-a-lago. kissed trumps as. and no, we're seeing a very different approach to what january 6th was to him and the rest of the republican party. >> republicans on the whole are more likely to believe generally six was a legitimate protest today than they wear. >> that's a combination of, you've got fox news pumping propaganda out, downplaying the, you know, the reality of that day. and then you also have elected representatives in congress and other political positions going back to their constituents and telling them things like andrew clyde saying it was a taurus day. i forget his name from wisconsin, the senator their -- >> ron johnson. >> ron johnson saying that he keeps debating in this -- one arm insurrection is.

well, there were guns there. there were firearms there. you're gonna have to get over it and accept the fact that this was an armed insurrection and whatever since you described it as. but there are guns. period. >> says someone on the frontlines. we know that there are. and certainly, and you broader mission to raise awareness about what happened, to hold people accountable, you've been remarkably successful. this book is testament that. there's a january six committee hearing on thursday. and i wonder, when you think about that day, are there any unanswered questions for you? what do you still wonder? diaz turns? >> at this point, i think -- fantastic job of looking into the root causes of january 6th. that's the question i had for liz cheney that she asked me at the conclusion of my testimony. i want to know what the root cause is. and we've seen that.

we have a sitting president who look to defraud the american people by saying the 2020 election was stolen, that was not, in fact, a free and fair election, which it was. the unanswered question i have is why is it that almost two years at from january 6th, we've been incapable of acknowledging the police officers on an individual level who responded to the capital and fought not only to save the lives of the individuals in the building and to preserve democracy and for one another, you know, we rewarded a congressional gold medal to the u.s. capitol police. i think that's disingenuous. like many officers feel. it wasn't institutions like the metropolitan police department that fought to save democracy. it was individual officers acting in their own volition. and many situations. who, like myself, self

dispatched and went there and fought for hours. >> i mean, that's what you've done. when you did was extraordinary. and we know there's others like you, and our hope is that they feel empowered to come out and speak about their experiences. but unless that happens, left with terrifying accounts like the one in your book. michael fanone, thank you for sharing this. thank you for your sacrifices so far on behalf of preserving our democratic institutions. the book is out today. it's called hold the line, the insurrection and one cops battle for america's soul. thanks for coming on. >> yes, ma'am. thanks for having me. >> we have more ahead this hour. i'll talk to one of the very few reporters to speak with attorney general merrick garland, as someone who now believes the doj will actually indict donald trump. but first, rachel maddow will join me in studio to talk about her new incredibly riveting podcast, ultra, the

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talk to anyone in san francisco and they'll tell you now is not the time to make our city even more expensive by raising taxes. san francisco has one of the largest city budgets in america. yet when it comes to homelessness and public safety, we're not getting results. what we really need are better policies, more accountability, and safer neighborhoods. vote no on propositions m and o. the last thing we need are higher taxes, especially right now. now is not the time

to raise taxes in san francisco. vote no on m and o. >> in november of 1938, and then not see drummond program against against jews known as crystal knocked, it shocked the world. but in america, one incredibly influential voice in the media,

basically told his audience that the jews had it's coming. father charles -- a catholic priest who spoke to an immense audience with this quickly broadcast on the radio, he was well into a campaign to turn into his listeners against jews who he went for the menace of communism. and by 1938, -- antisemitic rats had turned into calls for actions. his followers obliged and they created an organization called the christian front. here is my colleague, rachel maddow, on what's happened next. >> in the fall of 1939, a dozen cans of quartzite military grade explosives went missing from the 165th infantry division of the new york national guard. a dozen cans of quartzite. about 1500 rounds of ammunition, as well. those explosives and that family went missing because the commander of a new york national guard machine gun company took that stuff and gave it to the christian front. the christian front, by then,

has started to prioritize the recruitment of new members who had military training and military connections. they decided to escalate their own military training and their own arsenal of weapons. by then, father colin's christian front militia has decided it was time to move beyond rallies and protests and pickets and beating up jews in the streets. but then he had decided that it was time to move as an organization. in a big way -- >> that true story about what seditious conspiracy plot to overturn the u.s. government, what that is a taste of the riveting and dare i say, shocking, new podcast called rachel maddow presents ultra. guys, run! do not walk, download the first two episodes that are available now! now it's my pleasure to say, joining us now is someone you all know very well! the creator and host of the new podcast, rachel maddow, presents ultra. mitchell battle, herself. nice to see you my friend. >> always good to see you. >> i feel very blessed to have

you on this television program, to talk about this really, i will say, everyone has said the same thing, but it doesn't make it less true. incredibly urgent and revil a tory podcast. we should all know this history, and yet somehow, we've been walking around with these insane, so this is conspiracy blinders on! >> [laughs] >> and i gotta ask, people who haven't listen to it, father coughlin, who was he? and how big was his audience really? he was spreading this fictitious anti-semitic rhetoric. apparently had a lot of takers. >> oh yeah, and it's only interesting things about him. and i feel like he's kind of the only person in this whole story, this whole eighth episode arc of the podcast, where you might have heard of before. you know father coughlin maybe never heard of him. but if there's anyone -- i mean this castle come characters, he's the one. he's a perished priest. he's not up in the higher care of the catholic church. he starts off doing these radio broadcast from his parish in royal, oak makes again. he starts off as an fdr and new

dealer. and he turns against fdr any ties against the new deal, and he turns really, really hard right. he turns against democracy. and he praises mussolini, he writes fat males of mussolini -- >> as one does, when what is turned -- >> he says america should pursue the franco way, meaning the we should have a franco style dictatorship here. i take over in the sort of -- takeover by violence and by force. and he eventually, essentially tries to rally his followers to rise up violently against the u.s. government because it's been taking over by the jews. and the communists. which he sees as one in the same. and it's just this antisemitic fictitious demagogue. and he's doing this at a time where his radio audience is, depending on the estimate that you trust, somewhere between 30 and 40 million americans per week. and it's only 130 merry million americans in the country at this time. so the equivalent tv audience would be him getting 80 million

people a week. >> i mean wow! >> on the greatest people news night of the greatest cable news ever, maybe a talking about 5 million people. he's getting 80 million people, essentially calling for them to form violent armed cells to go -- you know rise up to turn against jews and overthrow the government. >> what's so shocking. a -- the traction that he gets an american society, 30 to 40 million people. right? and then the people act to take him up on his suggestions that they should be arms and that sort of formats revolution, insurrection. we have a full page, christian front a story from the 1940 addition of life magazine. which talks about the g man who arrested 17 men for plotting revolution. that's the 17 men -- >> that -- that >> so these are the guys that are working part of the christian fronts. and i -- i, when we talk about the oath

keepers and the proud boys, we think about the conviction, not a conviction, but an expression of contemporary america. and yet, there were numerous actors that fit that same build back in the 1940s. >> sure, and it was just one chapter, the ones who arrested were in the new york chapter. also huge chapter of boston, also minneapolis, big one in philadelphia, i mean st. louis -- all over the country. i had kristen front chapters. when those 17 guys got arrested in new york, one of the things that was so unnerving, i'm glad you played that clipped with the court and all of the stuff taking from the new york national guard -- the majority of the guys that were arrested were either actively in the national guard or the military, or had been in the military previously. they wanted people with military training, military connections, and they stole u.s. military weapons and explosives to use in this plot that they were planning for january 20th 1940. >>. i mean and let's just set aside the idea that it was a january plot, for a moment. did anything else binds these folks together? i mean -- i mean do we have a profile of

a front -- do we know why they were active, be on the common interest of law enforcement. what can, in the same way that were signed to get an understanding of who is attracted to this fictitious anti-democratic message as being spotted by the far-right wing today. who was attracted to its back in the 1940s? >> so really, really good question. and one of the things that was a challenge about running the podcast together, is there's a whole lot of different plots to overturn the governments. and so you've got the christian frontiers who are followers of father coughlin are buying large catholic, are buying large people in cities, all men. certainly they have a wider range of supporters. but then you also have other groups that are planning similar plots. who are also stealing stuff and planning takeovers about -- the silver shirts, the silver shirts which features prominently end up with a three. comes out on monday! these are actually middle class groups, businessmen, teachers,

lawyers, and it's within the structures of that group that they all had to be armed and many of them have tens of thousands of rounds of ammunition at home. and they are planning on their own, violent overthrow, of the u.s. government. again to get rid of the jewish communist plot. and it's all not seesaw the cage appear. so the profiles a little bit different than the civil shirt -- >> of the plot that we talk about at the 1940 election. involving some ex klansmen, which had a more clan vibe to it. but this message of authoritarianism. of a fascist, mates organized fascist lives, because there's some and i, me there's the jews, or the immigrants, or the black people, the communist, and that's what's wrong with america, and they've taken over the government. therefore we need to take over the government and stall a strongman can take it back. everyone got their own flavor of that. but the same logistics of authoritarian imperative moves them all. and move them all at a time that the hitler government is

interested in advancing them. >> well, i have to drive the parallel to today. the explicit praise of hitler and mussolini and franco in the little trim some of these groups -- it made me think of, oh victor oban sitting at cpac. now i'm not comparing him to of adolf hitler. but the lost to authoritarian, with the explicit desire to have a strongman, you know correct the wrongs, is as true today as it was true that as it is today. and i wonder, if your research, putting together in this podcast, whether you are thinking about this sort of zeal that the current republican party has for people like vladimir putin, or viktor orban. >> i think there's a reason that when you look around the world in authoritarian leaders, you can kind of swap all of their heads and photo shops, you know what i mean? like this puts in with a bear, but then this bolsonaro kind of doing the same thing. and that you know there's -- all of these, there's these guys all like seems a play on the same -- >> same garbage public.

it's >> [laughs] exactly! if that's a message of all of, them the idea of a strong it's gonna protect you from the other, that we need to exterminate so we can go back to the way it's wise when we were pure. i mean it's all the same message everywhere. it's the same in the philippines as it is in brazil, as it is in hungary, as it was back then. and it's always going to be different in terms of the way that it's you know what it's able to achieve, how far are they able to go. what exactly they will use to organizing principles. but they ryan for a reason. and when you hear cpac, when cpac goes to hungary, and when you see the cpac tweets that came out, praising the russian annexation of ukraine, and you see trump's stepping from boston arrow, saying if i don't win, we're gonna have a civil -- war and result, because we want trust their election results. it's about, piece of a piece overtime, and of a peace across geography. >> right to, we have more to discuss, can you stay with us in just a moment? we're gonna take a quick commercial break. again, for those of you that

missed at the top, the riveting podcast that you might listen to right now, rachel maddow presents ultra! it's available immediately! go on the internet! we'll be right back. ht back. girls trip. ♪ it's the most wonderful time of the year ♪ get fast relief of your worst allergy symptoms. including nasal congestion. with powerful claritin-d. so you can breathe better. feel the clarity and make today the most wonderful time of the year. claritin - d. we all have heroes in our lives. someone who cares about other people and gives of themselves. to help others, who can't always help themselves. those are true heroes. and for a kid like me,

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fanduel and draftkings, two out of state corporations making big promises. what's the real math behind prop 27, their ballot measure for online sports betting? 90% of profits go to the out of state corporations permanently. only eight and a half cents is left for the homeless. and in virginia, arizona, and other states, fanduel and draftkings use loopholes to pay far less than was promised. sound familiar? it should. vote no on prop 27. >> above my finance colleague traumatic, talk about her new excellent podcast, rachel maddow presents all, dress that pocket explores the assault on

american democracy from right wing extremists and elected officials. and an assault that took place and you're the lead up to the american entry into world war ii. and there are a lot of parallels to what we are seeing today but there is one significant difference between had a history that is explored on rachel's podcast and our current state of affairs. today's anti democratic extremists are no longer on the fringes of america's two major political parties. today, extremist beliefs are part of the mainstream republican platform and they have swept up republican voters en masse. according to the washington post, a majority of republican nominees for state and federal offices this year, are election deniers. and more than a handful of them are with inches winning those close races. like herschel walker. who despite all the scandals and the labels, conspiracy theories. he is just two points behind senator raphael warnock according to a new poll out today. another poll shows this week, this week shows election denier and january six -- run johnson, pulling one point away or ahead from his

democratic opponents, mandala barnes, from zeal to shred norms at up and democratic institutions. it's in some states on the verge of becoming a majority position. is there something plainly darker and scarier about this moment? and if so, what can history teach us about it. back with me as rachel maddow. rachel, i know that this podcast is an excellent job of giving us contacts with everything that's happening right now. but i wonder if when you look at the stats, about election deniers, that are going to be swept into office in all likelihood in november. you look at the sort of rhetoric of the republican party at this point when it comes to seditious conspiracy. and the overturning of democratic institutions and norms. does it feel like we are in a more treacherous place and we are now than 85 years ago? >> i mean, yes and no. on the one hand, i think it is worth being sort of -- sad lay realistic about how mainstream some of the views that i describe in the podcast

were at the time. >> okay. >> the america first committee which is what the -- don't get involved in world war ii, movements, that was you know, that's henry forward, the most prominent industrialist of the country. that's the most famous celebrity in the country -- the most famous person in the country is not the president. charles limber. it's all all of these incredibly powerful people. incredibly which people, incredibly influential people and they are in some ways, some of the dark corners of the americas first movement. are very much overlapped with some of the seditious and violent ultra right groups. so there was a main extreme nature to the backstop that i'm talking about for many years ago. but i also think that the justice department was really on to something there. sort of the arc of the story of ultra is when the justice department realizes that the hitler government is doing through different things in our country. number one, they've had incredible and shocking success winning over members of congress and united states senators to do their work here. and they are running an operation, not these are

running an operation for the congress, justice department figure that out. at the same, time justice department figures out that the german government is also supporting violent groups that want to overthrow the u.s. government in this fascism here. and when they realize both of those things are happening at once, that you've got real violence, with weapons, and military capability, and you've got power -- you've got people at the very core of american political power, that's the radical of violence, linked to power. that gives you a real seditious threat. potentially an existential threat to the country. that's what we have around the january six conspirators, that's what we have right now with the rise and authoritarianism and election denialism within the republican party. and the question is whether or not it is a law enforcement response that's going to be enough, or whether we need a broader response to tackle both of those polls at lunch. >> well let's talk about how you respond as a citizen. or journalist, right? there is this excellent pamphlets. >> i'm so glad you want to use

this! i love this! >> what did he win the rabble rouser comes to town. here's a little full screen of this. let me take this. >> this is an anti-fascist puppet from 1943. i got this from cal state northridge. from there, they have incredible exhibits are anti-fascist organizing in southern california, in the 30s and 40s. >> there's a page that really caught me. it was -- howie, how do you defeat the rousers as a citizen? >> this -- it talks about silent remit. basically not giving the rabble rouser, in this case, a fascist or white nationalist, not giving him the oxygen, effectively. this organized cell and treatments explodes at the wind bag. do you flight him, and defeat him. how do you see that advice in as it pertains to our current modern political landscape? >> the whole point of, this i think it's sophisticated. it wasn't like a children's book. but it's sophisticated anti-fascist strategizing. and they're saying, listen, if somebody is showing up in your town, they are trying to tell you to hate jews, hate

immigrants, hate black people, hate whatever it is, turn people against one another. there's some other that we all need to be aligned against. they know it's going to be controversial. they are hoping it will affect you. they want the publicity. they might even want violence in terms of confrontations between their supporters, their thugs, and those of you who are outright. that's what makes them feel big and important. gives them more juice. gives them more fundraising opportunities, moves him on to the next health. don't do that. don't publicize them. instead, inoculate your community against these ideas. tell them what they are going to hear before they hear them. tell them how these are old ideas, this is how they've worked out in other places. use education to make this stuff seem a boring and old news, not salacious, and modern. and i just -- i feel like it's a media criticism -- coming from the 2016 election. >> right? >> we're doing it all wrong? >> well as to, when somebody is trying to make you outrage, that means that your outrage as you playing their request -- >> right. >> don't let people yank your chain. control the narrative yourself.

if somebody is trying to take over the news cycle, by being outrageous, do not take the bait instead, describe what they are doing, rather than let them do it through you. >> that's what i think the message is and i think we did better added this last five years. >> can you just require that on to my phone so i can play it -- i want to show everything all. >> nights [laughs] >> destroy me every time i. fine >> all, right you notify. maybe >> just like a blocker. to >> let me just break character here for. moment i not here. gas price want to tell you, you are helping this so greatly -- >> all thank you that so generous. >> and as don't listen to anybody, the staff of what you should be the rachel matter show financial week is working with you, for nights awake, on just me one night a week. our staff is so weird -- so demanding, so not like anybody other cable news. >> but they like cupcakes! they do like cupcakes! >> i'm telling, you they are demanding, they don't -- they don't, they do not suffer fools and they do not work well with people who don't do the work. and they are so impressed with you, and you are doing such good work. and you are just -- i'm very proud of you.

i'm very glad you have these hours! >> in a straight norm. out >> that stuff is hard to. please and they're happy to be working with you and impressed, and i just -- i'm really happy you are here! >> thank you rachel! thank you, i'm really happy you are here! just stay glued to that state, rachel maddow, host of the rachel maddow show, you may have heard it, if you have heard of it. and the creator of the new podcast, rachel maddow presents ultra, rachel, just everything you do is a plus! and this one is just -- keeping up with tradition! thank you for your time. >> still ahead, after talking to merrick garland's friends, former colleagues, and even the attorney general himself, one reporter will believes the justice department will indict donald trump. the only question now is when? franklin ford joins me next. stick around! >>stick around >> (vo) you can be well-dressed. (man) wahoooo! (vo) you can be well-groomed. or even well-spoken. (man) ooooooo.

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in a filing several hours ago, the doj asked the supreme court not to intervene in a dispute about the specifics of the special master's document review. trump has asked the court to allow the special master, judge raymond dearie, to review more than 100 classified documents retrieved from trump's florida beach club. it is falling today, doj pushed back on that request calling those particular documents quote, extraordinarily sensitive. the lawyers from the department say trump's attempt here is quote, unprecedented, and an attempt to restrict the executive branches use of its own highly classified records in an ongoing criminal investigation. this is the latest salvo in a very public and ongoing legal battle of the justice department is raging with the former president. and the attorney general, merrick garland, says he speaks through his filings. which means these days, attorney general garland speaking loudly and often and with plenty of damning details. and a new piece called the inevitable indictment of donald trump, franklin for where, lays

out the reasons that he will see or the doj indict the da -- in a matter of months. foer he spent months closely observing, garland been with his closest friends and clark. it should be the attorney general himself. and foer has reached the conclusion that garland's devotion to procedure's belief and the rule of law, and in particular, the reverence to the duties, responsibilities, and traditions of the u.s. department says what caused him to make the most monumental decision an attorney general can make. foer explains that even garland's decision to have the fbi search mar-a-lago in august in the first place was a big deal. as a predictably opens the floodgates of right-wing rage as and criticism of the doj. all of which the attorney general has very much try to avoid. garland was also the one who decided to include that photo of all the classified documents were treated for mar-a-lago when an august brief, a move that trump has complained about

almost nonstop. so this is a presidents ongoing fight. not a question of future justice department decisions that could spark political anger. this is all right now. garland is already setting aside the political noise, and following the evidence he has. and abiding by the law he must uphold. it's no longer even a question of whether garland might decide to indict donald trump in the future. according to foer, it's one? and probably soon. the justice department could pursue pot charges in the mar-a-lago case, or the january six probe. and for reports that the location of the potential -- trouble that maybe top of mind for attorney general garland. quote, once the trial began, trump would likely be stuck in court, in florida, the chant that he's connected with the mar-a-lago documents matter, or in washington d.c., if he's charged with his involvement in the fisa january six. the site of a washington trial it would be too pretty man that courthouse, on constitution avenue, which is just a short

walk from the u.s. capitol. this fact terrified the former prosecutors and other experts i talked with about how the trial might play out. right-wing politicians including trump himself, have intimated violence if he is indicted -- like the capitol on january six, the courthouse could become a magnet for paramilitaries. with protesters and counter protesters descending on the same locale, the occasion with tenth street warfare. the prospect of such a spectacle feels merrick garland with brad, according to his friends. 20 is now is franklin foer staff writer at the atlantic, and the man who interviewed attorney merrick garland. it's so great for your reporting, thank you for time site! >> hey alex! >> so, let me as other quest i think a lot of us are wondering, why do you think the attorney general a creek to speak with you? in this credibly fraught time, a sideways glance he makes on camera, it's parts for what that might imply about a future

indictment? >> right. and i should be upfront, say that when i spoke with merrick garland in june, before the mar-a-lago rate, he did nothing that tipped his hat and any sort of away. the justice department at least in my dealings with it, really takes seriously its vows of silence. it doesn't talk about ongoing investigations. but i do think that merrick garland has taken a lot of criticism. there have been times where he seems disconnected. and i think he suffers especially in comparison to the january six commission investigation on the hill which is -- portraying a narrative. and he's given a lot of heat or taken a lot of heat, to be extremely cautious. and so he's decided at that in certain venues, he's going to kind of step out and explain what he's doing, a little bit more clearly. even if he's not talking about specifics. >> so this is an attempt to clarify the situation. and yet, you came away with that, the clarify the situation but not issue any indictments as it were. you came away with a pretty

clear idea that he was going to issue an indictment against former president trump. can you talk to me about how you came to that conclusion? and the evolution that you have seen the attorney general undergo since he first came to office in many ways, trying to lower the temperature of things in the nation's capital. and around the country -- >> so merrick garland is described as a hyper potential institutionalist. he is somebody who is to his core >> a very cautious person, he's a creature of the department justice. he cares about protecting and preserving the institution. with was tarnished by the trump administration, and so he saw his mission as uplifting this institution. and he was somebody who as a judge, and as a person, who is on very collegial, and very inclined to consensus building, he works very closely with republicans when he was the circuit court judge. and i think when he came to office, he had a certain idea

about the country could be restored. how the institution could be protected and preserve. but when you are attorney general, use it in this position where you have this very panoramic view of american life. and the assault on democracy is something that in the decay of our democratic culture, it's something that he observed really up close through the judicial system. and so i think that overtime, he wasn't exactly radicalized, but he became i think, harden and a little bit more confrontational, and a little bit darker, and more pessimistic, when he thought about the institutions in this country. so i think that shifted him to more confrontational stand as it relates to the anti-democratic forces in this country. and then you have the emergence of the mar-a-lago documents case. and in contrast to january six, which is a very complicated case. the congressional commission it has portrayed things and a very clear sort of way. but they are not making a case

that can stand up in a court of law. and so i think that is a very difficult case for the justice department to bring. but the mar-a-lago case, i think it's much more black and white. and it relates to a very core principle that merrick garland is just a central to merrick garland. it's the rule of law. that there is nobody in this country who stands above the law. who's immune from the law. and so i think that this case, which is so, so much clearer! at least it seems from the outside -- and the principle at stake, it's so central to the way that garland thinks about the fabric of our democratic institutions -- i think it is inevitable that he brings and indictments here. >> all right, franklin foer we will be catching up with you in the coming weeks, months, and we know this all have the come to pass before a new president is installed, and there. we franklin foer stuff at the atlantic, writer it's great to see you frank. >> great to see you, thank you. >> that does it for us