good to be with you. i'm katy tur. ukraine is still making gains, retaking five villages in the south of the country, in the last few days.

showing again that it has the ability and the determination to keep pushing russia back. but president zelenskyy says he still needs help to keep it up. yesterday, he asked the g-7 for more military might and today, germany sent over an ultra modern air defense system so new it's never been used on the battlefield. crediting this type of help with saving lives across ukraine. saying the barrage of missile attacks would have been even worse had the ukrainians not been able to shoot down some of them. still though, the damage is bad. at least 28 more russian missile strikes hit critical infrastructure throughout the country today. the mayor of lviv says a third of his city is without power. and zaporizhzhia, ukrainian emergency services released footage of a family being pulled from the rubble of a rocket attack that hit their home. they were hiding in the cellar. many others have not been so

lucky. at least 26 people killed since monday. and yet, the ukrainian people are staying put. as my colleague richard engel told us yesterday, the borders are clear. that refugee tent, with everyone who wants to flee, they're empty. >> there was absolutely no one at the border. when we crossed today, we didn't see a single person in any of the refugee centers. we saw humanitarian aid workers there, waiting to receive people, doing absolutely nothing, just waiting for crowds that never emerged. >> vladimir putin appears to be up against a wall. the white house told everyone the import controls has blunted russia's ability to manufacture high-tech weaponry. the borders to get out of russia have been busy. with eligible men running from vladimir putin's draft. the stubborn question that keeps on being asked is what might putin do next? last week, president biden told

the democratic fundraiser, any nuclear attack anywhere would be armageddon. now, the president is saying that comment was meant for putin to hear. >> he in fact cannot continue with impunity to talk about the use of a tactical nuclear weapon as if that is a rational thing to do. mistakes get made. and the miscalculations that occur, no one can be sure what would happen and could end in armageddon. >> joining me now is nbc's chief international correspondent keir simmons. what is the reaction within russia to president biden's interview? >> reporter: well, i sat down with russia's deputy prime minister just a few hours ago, i asked him about that, and tried to identify president biden, and president putin'sish rational act, and he insisted that in fact that president putin is making decisions on behalf of

russia, the right decisions for russia, and just to let you know, president putin today, speaking, accused ukrainians of being terrorists, who he says, and ukraine has not said that, has not admitted this publicly, they say in fact it is nonsense. president putin says that terrorists attacked ta bridge between russia and crimea, and today, the fsb, the successor of the kgb, announced they had less than eight people, including five russians. i asked the russian deputy prime minister about another aspect, president biden saying that there would be consequences for saudi arabia because of that cut in oil production, agreed by opec +, including russia. take a listen. >> president biden has described the decision to cut oil production by opec plus as misguided. you were in the room when the decision was made. how is a decision like that

reached? >> translator: our joint activities, coordination of the action of 23 countries that are a part of opec plus has already been working for six years, and has shown its effectiveness, due to the fact that during these times, we have always made the right decisions. effective decisions. balancing supply and demand of the oil market. >> president biden thinks there is an alliance between you and saudi arabia and says there is going to be consequences for saudi arabia for what they've done with russia. >> translator: saudi arabia and russia, the biggest oil producers and exporters in the world but they want to make it clear that all decisions that are considered and taken in the framework of further cooperation with the 23 countries are taken in a consolidated manner.

>> reporter: you can imagine that none of that is going to allay the frustration in washington, the feeling that it was a political decision to cut the oil production by opec+, including russia and saudi arabia, a decision in which might lead to higher prices at the pump. >> keir simmons, thank you very much. and joining me now, the new yorker.com executive editor and msnbc contributor and "the new york times" chief white house correspondent and msnbc political analyst peter baker. i want to talk about saudi arabia in a moment but i want to focus a bit more on the nuclear threat here. we have joe biden, the president, say just the other week that he's afraid of nuclear armageddon. that is still lingering out there. and you have vladimir putin continuing to threaten them. the u.s. says they believe that vladimir putin is still a rational actor. from your experience reporting inside moscow, for all of those years, peter, what do you make of the situation right now? >> well, look, rational in the

sense that you understand how putin sees things. i mean he's not rational in the sense that washington would see things. the very invasion in february was not rational on a whole lot of level, right, because look at what has happened, every goal he set out has been a failure for him and that is not what we would consider rational. it may be rational in the sense that american doesn't feel it is a physical, mental psychological issue and you have to understand it through his eyes. through his eyes after 22 years, is the mes. ianic mission he set for himself, to restore some of the loss of the russian empire, to be a peter the great if you will and a very different way to look at the world that an american van tanl point. president biden is afraid of nuclear armageddon because we don't have the same vantage point that putin has. he said last night he didn't think he was going to do it and trying to tamp down worries a little bit and that's the consensus in the white house and they don't think pute women do it but you have to take it

seriously even if putin says he won't do it, that it is just bluster. >> what do you think? >> a lot of time in russia, that the danger that putin feels corners, and he is rational but sees it as existential and rule and end of his life. >> and talking about quadafi, he is not winning on the battlefield. there are public complaints about what is happening in russia right now. not directed at vladimir putin but they are complaining about the lack of success. so using missiles, i was talking to john kirby yesterday, of the national security council, and he said that it's clear that russia is being hurt by all of the sanctions, they can't manufacture the more high-tech weaponry, the guided missiles that, you know, they can make a precision target, individual spaces, and that's why they're using these unguarded or unguided missiles that are causing terror but not necessarily causing the damage that they need. what happens if he, i mean do we

have a good sense of where he is right now, vladimir putin, how threatened he is, internally? >> i think we don't. and one thing about vladimir putin is he doesn't use electronic communication. so it is very, very hard to get a sense of his thinking. you have to have a human source deep inside the kremlin. some may be turning against him now given how badly things are going but that is the danger, the classic talk, talking about the cuban missile crisis about miscalculation, when the two sides misunderstand each other. >> if you launch a nuclear weapon, and it crosses over into nato territory, does that automatically trigger article 5 with another nuclear weapon, and then what happens after that? >> that's the fear, is that maybe when these weapons, one of these weapons could also malfunction, it could set off, with a small tactical nuclear weapon could go off high in the atmosphere where the winds possibly blow that radiation into the territory of an ally, and then a basic question is how does the united states respond, and again, this official i

talked to, former intelligence official, said that the sense is that the united states would not respond to the nuclear weapon on its own, that that would create an escalatory spiral and you would end up having the kind of dangers of a fulg-blown nuclear conflict. >> so part of what is fueling the war still is russia's act to keep funding the war. and part of that is because their oil is still being sold on the market. i mean there's a diminished price, diminished demand for it, and there was talk about the g-7 country, g-20 countries coming together and putting a price cap on russian oil, to further diminish what they can take in, to fund their war. saudi arabia and russia lead opec plus, and they're diminishing the amount of oil that's produced. that's going to essentially neuter any sort of price cap you might put on russian oil. and clearly, the president of the united states is pretty angry about this, he said as much in his cnn interview, and

you just radar right there, an official from moscow saying it is nothing at all, it is totally normal. >> the idea of helping vladimir putin at a time where it looked like putin would be increasingly isolated, with china, india, of course, putting increased distance between themselves and the war in ukraine, and for saudi arabia to basically hold hands with russia and try to manipulate the oil markets, to moscow's benefit, struck biden as kind of betrayal. also, mad at saudi arabia because he went out on a limb politically to go visit saudi arabia this summer, to put aside his own campaign rhetoric when he said he would make prince mohammed bin salman a pariah because of the killing of jamal khashoggi the journalist, and what he got in terms of payments as far as americans is concerned is a stab in the back. and the white house is seeing it as a betrayal so that's why you heard the words like consequences and re-evaluating

the relationship. >> what does that mean? what sort of consequences. if you re-evaluate the relationship, what happens? we stop selling them arms? >> that's one of the proposals on capitol hill. several proposals by democrats, cutting off arms sales and holding back american defensive systems in saudi arabia including removing the immunity that saudi arabia and the other members of the oil cartel have from anti-trust lawsuits in the united states, and something that could expose them to legal jeopardy. so in are a lot of ideas on capitol hill. and president biden is not endorsing any of them and in some ways it is useful to have the congressional threats in his pocket and look i have to deal with here, if you do not cooperate with me, these are the kind of things that could happen to you and i don't know necessarily if he will do what congress says and it may not be his nature but we'll wait and see. >> what you are watching for next, the last word. >> i think what mohammed bin salman does, the same intelligence official talked about him being as narcicisstic,

vengeful, and he delights, unlike the past kings of saudi arabia, he likes to thumb his nose at washington and we shouldn't stop selling arms to saudi arabia, the saudis are banking that our military industrial complex, our defense contractors want all that money, so it an opportunity for a real pivot by the u.s. policy makers. >> well said. david, peter, thank you very much. still ahead, the nbc news exclusive interview with john fetterman, the first since suffering a strike, and a conversation about fetterman's recovery. we will talk to pennsylvania senator bob casey who has been stumping with him. plus, a preview of the next and likely final january 6th hearing. the new evidence the committee is set to unveil about what donald trump knew as the insurrection unfolded. and when he knew it. also, the retired nfl quarterback at the center of a massive welfare fraud case, brett favre, you see him there, is breaking his weeks of silence.

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if you're in arizona, you may have already cast your midterm ballot or you may be about to. about 80% of residents vote early across that state, in person, by mail, or by dropping off their ballots. but the ghost of donald trump's 2020 loss and the disinformation spread by his allies about fraud and early voting still looms over that state. gop candidates in tight races there continue to peddle election integrity conspiracies. in fact, nowhere in the country has trump had more success in elevating his big lie with candidates than in arizona. among the republican nominees for arizona's nine house seats, all but one are election deniers. >> joining me now from phoenix is nbc's vaughn hillyard. you are at what looks like a

vote counting center. is that right? >> reporter: yes, this is a tabulation center. this is the place where you can imagine we will be spending election night and quite potentially depending how close these races are, several days after the election. maricopa county was the heart and soul of this idea that there was questions about the integrity of the election in 2020. of course, you saw the so-called audit take place. and i think it's important, when we're talking about the urgency for these candidates right now, we're talking about one-third of maricopa county voters in 2020 voting within the first 12 days by mail in this election, and so that is where, you know, katy, my sister just sent me this screen shot and received a text message that her maricopa county ballot is already in the mail, that begins today. and i want to bring in steven richard, the current maricopa county reporter, a republican we should note and pushed back in your party about election

conspiracy theories and can you tell us what is taking place here? >> absolutely. we push back against falsehoods about the election no matter where they can come from and today is a day of the beginning of the early voting and as you mentioned, many, many, many arizonians vote by early ballot and here in maricopa county, about 62% of the population in arizona, we mailed out 1.9 million early ballots to those who requested them today and when we typed out those text messages, individually, so my thumbs are a little bit sore sending those to your sister. >> the ballots will come back here will be tabulated. >> they go through the signature verification process and get scanned in and go to bipartisan teams and eventually go into this room where they are tabulated. >> we saw in the primary, there's a prominent candidate running for governor kari lake who is suggested there were so-called irregularities and fraud and never provided evidence to the county. >> we encourage people to use the court system. we are undefeated in the court system because we have a safe secure process that is done by

bipartisan cooperation and as you have seen from walking around here, we have rsds, eyes, all together working on this process. >> and you're a republican on the front lines and the maricopa county board of supervisors, the republicans here, what is your message in the final four weeks knowing there will be likely individuals calling into question what is going on in your county. >> if you have questions, ask. bus this process is tried, it's tested, it's secured, it's documented, it's verifiable and have confidence in this situation and be rational ute there. >> voting begins today in arizona and the lone gubernatorial debate is happening tonight and the democrat is not choosing to participate so kari lake will take the stage by herself. but again, we're looking at what is likely to be very close races, for u.s. senate, governor, secretary of state, attorney general, and we're looking at close elections here over the next 27 days. >> vaughn, thank you very much. let's go over now to pennsylvania. where the polls in the senate

race look like this right now. just a few percentage points between democratic nominee john fetterman and republican dr. mehmet oz. fetterman sat down with sasha burns for the first in-person tv interview since the stroke and said he is doing well but he will not release his medical records to squash any lingering doubts that might remain surrounding his recovery in the final stretch of the campaign. joining me now is senator bob casey of pennsylvania. he has endorsed john fetterman to serve alongside him in the senate. he did so back in may. all right, so thank you so much for being with us here, senator. i want to play a little bit more from the conversation my colleague had with john fetterman yesterday. let's listen to it. >> you have styled yourself as the no [ bleep ] candidate, that's why a lot of people are drawn to you, sometimes that's easy, and sometimes like in moments like that, that gets tested. so why not follow through on that and be fully transparent and release all of that

information? >> and i said, i am putting everything, tested, i am being out and tested day in and day out. and you know, if my doctor teams already said that i'm fine, and i'm ready to go on that, then i'm not really sure that's much more beyond transparent. >> but we're taking your word for what your doctors are telling you, right? we haven't heard from them in months. >> i mean if they believe that i was ready to do that, and i've been able to successfully do that kind of campaigning, i think that demonstrates what they said and their opinions, were actually pretty accurate. >> senator, how do you feel about john fetterman's candidacy right now, the campaign that he is running? >> well, i think he is doing really well. when you consider the barrage of negative advertising against john, the likes of which we have never seen against one candidate, with more than $20

million of negative advertising, in just a couple of weeks, that has never happened in the history of senate races in our state, and despite all of that, despite all of that fear and smear, and in vective, he is still winning against a candidate that i think people have a real sense of the two candidates already. they know john. they know him. they know his roots. this he know his values. they know he's fighting for them every day. and will fight for them in the senate. i think the other side can't say. that so the other side is going to try to raise health issues. it's the oefdest trick in the book -- oldest trick in the book but you know, what it's not working. because if i were running a campaign, or someone on my behalf and had spent 20 million of negative ads against the other guy and i wasn't ahead in this environment, i would be pretty worried if i were the other side. john is doing really well. and i think he has been very transparent about his health. >> there will be a debate between these two men a little bit later on and the voters of pennsylvania are going to get another chance to see how they

both do. and whether they feel comfortable, lieutenant governor john fetterman in the open seat for senator. but those that are in pennsylvania that might still have questions about whether this means that he's fully capable of doing the job, i think it's fair for them to ask that, why not release the full medical records just to be completely transparent, to quash any fears, if you say the doctors say you're going to be okay? >> well, katy, a couple of things. number one is i don't give advice to other campaigns and just observe what i've seen. number one, i've talked to john on a regular basis for months mow. i notice the progress he's made. i'm not a medical doctor but i've noticed it and a lot of people have as well. that's number one. number two his doctor sent a letter, this summer, weeks after the stroke had taken place, which was, which made it very clear that he can serve. number three, john has been not just transparent throughout, he is transparent in the moment, up to the minute. in other words, sometimes even

in that interview, in the middle of a sentence, he might say see, i missed a word there or i did this, he is telling people directly over and over again what this process of recovery is all about. and guess what, people get it. they have family members that have recovered from a lot of things, including strokes, and they know that they can fall down, recover, and get back up, and do their job, and people do really difficult jobs, sometimes every bit as hard as being a united states senator, after having a stroke. so i think people get it. i think people get it intuitively. >> and let me ask about the auditory complex that he has right now. his difficulty he is having interpreting just audio. if he were to serve in the senate, say he never gets any better than he is right now, and he needs to use his closed captioning forever, maybe, is there any reason for you to believe, as somebody who currently serves in that chamber, that that would make it harder for him to do his job

there, harder for him to serve the people of pennsylvania and to function at the high level needed for the senate? >> no, i've been doing this job a long time. and i know a lot about it. and i know what it takes to serve. and the people of our state have elected me three times. they know a lot about me, and they know my service. and so i understand what it takes to be an effective united states senator from a big state like pennsylvania. john is going to serve with distinction. when he's in the senate, he's got a lot of work between now and election day to get there, but i think he's going to win, and i think one of the reasons why he will be able to serve, even if he doesn't make even more progress, which i think he probably will, that one of the reasons he'll be able to serve is that's the world we live in today. where we have, for 32 years, for example, the americans with disabilities act, which allows closed captioning, which uses technology and other approaches to allow people with disabilities to fully participate. it's one of the goals of the americans with disabilities act. we should welcome that.

we should hope, and encourage more people that have any kinds of disability, something very minor, something more substantial, to run for public office, be part of our -- the governing process of the country. and i think john, if he needs more help when he gets to the senate, he'll have it. and i think it will work just fine. people, i think the good news is, most americans understand that we have made great progress when it comes to dealing with difficult issues or disabilities, and i think john's going to be able to be a testament to that when he's in the senate. >> senator john casey, or bob casey, excuse me, thank you so much for coming on and making the case for us. we appreciate it. and what the january 6th committee is promising to reveal in their next possibly final hearing. plus, could the upcoming midterms ultimately be decided by the nonvoters? nbc's shaq brucester talks to

wisconsinites who say they plan to sit this one out. to sit this one out.

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plans to present a new video featuring the gop operative roger stone who called for contesting the 2020 election results before the vote was even held. and supported the use of violence to ensure trump won on camera. he do this on camera. the "washington post" reports the hearing will also look at newly obtained secret service records that show former president donald trump was briefed repeatedly about the growing threat of violence leading up to the riot and decided to fan the flames anyway. also nbc news reports we could as hear about the testimony from ginni thomas, the wife of supreme court justice clarence thomas. joining me now from capitol hill is nbc's ali vitali, and with me is former u.s. attorney and msnbc legal analyst barbara mcquade. ali, this is the final hearing, i suspect we will get a bit of a wrap-up of everything we have learned so far. also interestingly, no live guests, no live testimony tomorrow. >> yes, no live witnesses that we expect. but we do think that each of the members of this committee are going to have a section that

they lead the audience through once they actually commence tomorrow afternoon. and look, this isn't a court of law. but it is a court of public opinion. so you can almost frame tomorrow as closing arguments. seeing new evidence, like the roger stone documentary footage that you pointed out, like the deposition that they've since done with ginni thomas, but all of that pointing back to themes that this committee has already set out in painstaking detail in the eight hearing they have held over the course of the summer, this is supposed to be the culmination of that, and the last investigative hearing that we see, certainly before election day, but also because the committee is now beginning to pivot wholly toward the final report that they're going to issue before the end of the year. we've talked a lot about the fact that they are up against the clock of the midterm election, specifically because of controls the house has with republicans and this committee will definitely be no more and that's why you're seeing chairman thompson and other

members of the committee pointing to the hearing as important but their final report of being of paramount importance because that's where they will lay out in the most painstaking detail everything that they have found over the course of this year-plus of investigating. >> are they going to submit that report to anybody? maybe recommend charges? going anything beyond just putting it out there in the responsible sphere? >> we may actually end up seeing another hearing. that's something that chairman thompson has sort of toyed with, as he's been talking with reporters. and certainly something that the committee is actively talking about as well. that could come before the end of the year. but on top of that, then there is also the question of what this report looks like in terms of how it deals with some open questions. for example, multiple republican lawmakers in the house balking at their subpoenas right now, ignoring them, and that's something that the committee says that they're going to have to make a decision on at some point before the end of the year, how they proceed with that happening. and then also the open questions about what to do about trump and pence and that question is there about a criminal referral, it is

not something that the justice department needs bus congresswoman liz cheney in recent interviews says they expect to make a decision on it and expects the decision to be unanimous when it comes. >> thank you very much. >> bash, what open questions, what loose ends are looking to be tied tomorrow when you watch this story? >> one thing that i think has never been directly linked is donald trump and the physical violence at the capitol. certainly we've had some evidence that he was aware it was happening and failed to take sacks to make it stop and -- action to make it stop and maybe riled up the crowd and a link between him and the proud boys and the oath keepers and decision conspiracy for actively plotting ahead of time to conduct that physical attack, i will be listening for that. we've seen links between the oath keepers and proud boys and roger stone and mike flynn but we're not seeing a direct link to the plot. so i'm looking for. that also it is reported that we will hear more about the secret

service messages that we're missing but now have been restored and over a million of them returned, turned over to the committee. you know, now they've had a chance to shift through those and share with us the highlights i will be curious to hear what is in them. remember we had cassidy hutchison tell the story about donald trump was quite insistent to go to the hospital, on january 6th. it seems like we've seen sort of shades about a plan, of a second rally, near the capitol, maybe on the steps of the supreme court, maybe they can shed some light on what was going on there. because that could tie donald trump to the activities at the capitol. so those are some things i will be looking for. >> certainly i will be looking as well. i know the secret service has asked for the agent's personal phones as well. they've been seized. we'll find out if any of that information shows up tomorrow during the hearing which apparently might not be the last, as ali vitali just reported per bennie thompson. barbara, thank you very much. and tomorrow at noon eastern, don't forget to join us here on msnbc for special

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state designated welfare funds. in other words money that was supposed to go to help those in need. joining me now is nbc news national investigative reporter laura strickler, thanks for being with us. if you read between the lines in favre's response it is more like a deflection than a denial, saying he didn't knowingly take welfare funds. >> this is true. and this new statement from favre is not really new. he said that he did not know these were welfare funds. this has been his consistent defense in the scandal. but we know based on his own text messages and documented meetings, brett favre did know the money was from the mississippi department of human services. and if you look at the website for the state agency, the purpose is right there, in large font, and it says the agency is promoting self sufficiency and personal responsibility for all mississippians. favre also appears to have some concern that there could be a problem with the funding

arrangement, because at one point he texted to the nonprofit executive who was sending the taxpayers funds and wrote if you were to pay me is, there any way the media can find out where it came from and how much? and katy, one of the causes we've been looking into that brett favre wanted the state agency to fund was a speculative drug company that was in the very early stages of developing a drug for concussions. so the company got $2 million in taxpayer funds. but they had zero connection to the state of mississippi. it was based in florida, where the chief scientist lived, and the clinical trial was in australia. the only connection to the state of mississippi was that brett favre was the single largest investor with $250,000. >> so favre hasn't been charged with any crime though, laura. can you tell whether it seems like more and more evidence, as more and more comes to light, that maybe that might change and he might get charged with something? >> so we have no indication that

brett favre and the subject of the ongoing federal criminal investigation, into fraudulent spending of welfare dollars in the state, he was named in a civil lawsuit, filed by the state department of human services, as trying to find out how the fraud happened, and to get the money back. favre's lawyers had agreed to a deposition in september, but all of the depositions connected to the case were postponed and have not yet been rescheduled. we're told if they are rescheduled they probably won't be until early next year. >> laura, thank you very much for bringing the story once again. tens of millions of people do not vote in this country. do not vote. our last presidential election cycle saw the biggest voter tunout in recent history, but still, 80 million people stayed home. turnout is significantly worse for midterm elections. the president is not on the ballot. so we were wondering what do these folks say about why they don't think it's worth voting.

nbc's shaq brewster spoke to some of them. here it is. >> reporter: 23-year-old jake jayhart, will likely join the largest voting block of 2022. >> i didn't realize the midterm elections were coming up. >> the candidate is a registered vote, he is a veg registered vote in battleground wisconsin only carting a ballot after seeing protests at a biden campaign event in a small rural city. but in this year's midterm elections, he might stay home. >> do you plan on voting in november? >> i would like to. but i can't guarantee that answer right now. i would like to learn a little bit more but i really don't have the time. >> since 2000, 60% of eligible americans cast the presidential ballot on average. during congressional midterm years, average turnout dropped dramatically, to just 42%. the majority, about 150 million americans, remain silent in our

representative democracy. >> do you plan on voting in november? >> no. >> why not? >> i don't want to. >> i want to be an informed voter and i don't feel like i am because the commercials don't help. >> a 2020 knight foundation study of some 12,000 so-called chronic nonvoters, it shows the group tilts only slightly towards democrats, but includes more women and minorities, and is younger, and has lower income levels than active voters. >> do you plan on voting in november? >> not necessarily. i don't see the direct effect that it has on the community that i live in. >> this man says he participates in presidential races to please his mother and grandparents who fought for his right but he usually skips midterm years. >> my sister gave me a sign to promote. >> his steer tynetta helped recently to lead a car parade through milwaukee to activate and register voters. >> it is harder to get people to

know that it is important to vote when they don't see it in our community. >> it is definitely easy to vote. it is just when you take that box, man, you check that box, you walk away from it and nothing will change. >> nonvoting citizens, a group that is large and powerful, but not immovable, our latest nbc news poll showing voter enthusiasm two months ahead of the midterms is at an all-time high. >> you didn't vote in 2020. >> no. >> do you plan to vote this time around? >> yes. >> what has shifted? >> being older. seeing how everything really impacts me. >> up next, what happens when you're called bossy, or abrasive or emotional? ♪ what will you do?

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correspondent julia boorstin, the book is called "when women lead, what they achieve and how they succeed and how he can can learn from them." congratulations. >> thank you. great to be here. >> what have you learned from women who lead? >> i learned when it comes to the hard stuff, the more that you understand it, the more that you can navigate around, it if you understand you are about to face a situation, you can push right through and lot let it bother you. education is key. >> so if you're going to face bias, what is the key thing to remember, because we're all going to face is when we go to the workplace, and times are chaining and we've gotten better. >> and i think the key thing is understanding what you're up against. there is so much data about double standards for using humor in the workplace, you can believe it, women get criticized for using humor in the workplace and delivering feedback and women are judged more harshly than men, expressing anger, women are judged more harshly on any number of things and if you go into it and know that and

face blowback don't let it bother you. you can't scale a mountain unless you know how high it is and you can't succeed unless you know what the obstacles are going to be. >> what about if you are afraid to go and complain about somebody that is not treating them the way they would treat a male colleague or a male employee and they're worried about the blowback from that and making waves and there is still a lot of that fear out there. >> it is out there and one of the things i interested is i focused on entrepreneurs because in a lot of ways they say the world i work in, may not be conducive to my success and i may not be able to thrive in that world and i will go out and create my own thing where i know i can control the workplace and i know i can succeed because i'm in control of my destiny and my future by how hard i work. and navigating workplace politics is always tough, it depends on the company but understanding what is really going on out there, whether it is understanding how much you're getting paid, versus someone else or even iffing is specific, a specific comment like you're being mean is a judgment of your style, and not of your

substance. we all want to be judged on our substantial, right? >> how have you dealt with this personally in your career? >> with my book, it is incredibly powering process because someone made a comment to me after i interviewed and happened to be a female ceo and another executive said gee, your tone in that interview was really mean. and i thought mean? i don't do mean. i want to be fair. i want to be fair. that's what it means to be a good journalist. instead of spiraling and going back and marching back, and i said hey, i actually just saw this data that women are more likely to be criticized if they're not demonstrating nurturing, and i think well, would you have said the same to a male colleague of mine, and -- >> it is very apparent when you're on a campaign trail and interviewing politicians. >> would you have said the same thing to my male colleagues and the guy i was talking to and said you know i will have to stop and think about that. maybe i would have expected it. >> and you report on what has been traditionally a very male dominated field, finance and wall street, a lot of powerful women who are, who have broken through, and are still breaking

through, what is it like for you to go in and for to you walk in and push these very powerful men, and make them uncomfortable? >> well, look, i think that i've always exceeded by overdoing my homework. i always felts likely to prove myself and no matter what question came up, that i had done my homework, and especially when i was young and straight out of college at a young reporter at fortune magazine, the younger men would say how can you possibly know what you're talking about i'm done my homework and know what questions i'm asking and always being prepared is essential and i think the women who have succeeded, that is why they're so impressive. >> this is the question i want to get asked about my book when people ask me about it, what is the one story in here that you want people to go out and read and what is your tease to pick up the book. >> the stories in the book are so inspiring. i'm hoping that the characters in this book will serve as a mirror and allow people, women, to see these characteristics in themselves. and one woman in the book who

encapsulates so many amazing characteristics of female leadership, and a company ceo, turns the health care model on its head. and they're paid on long-term outcomes. not the amount of care they deliver. and they also offer social services, and they help people get housing. and they think about helping the homeless. and making sure that someone has been cycling in and out of the emergency room, which might generate revenue but is not good for the long term. these are women who are in many ways really focused on purpose, along with profits. >> julie, the book is called "when women lead," congratulations. >> thank you. and that is going to do it for me today, on that very good note, hallie jackson picks up coverage next. ge next. will you make something better? create something new? our dell technologies advisors can provide you with the tools and expertise you need to bring out the innovator in you. [ sneezing ] are you okay? the tools and expertise you need oh, it's just a cold.

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