left in the show. jones' attorney is calling today a dark day for freedom of speech saying they are likely to appeal. what would an appeal even look like sneer. >> it's hard to imagine u.might have noticed that the judge had a fake smile on her face when she reviewed the verdict before it was announced. i think that probably comes close to what she thinks about this verdict. i think it's likely to stand. the appellate court may reduce the amount somewhat. this is historic, but if the american legal system has anything to do with it, alex jones will spend the rest of his life paying back the 15 people who his vile words and deeds injured and his business will go bankrupt. guess what, there's a third damages trial coming up. westbound on that note, thank you all. that does it for us. nicolle wallace picks it up with "deadline white house" right now.

>> hire, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york on a very busy day of news and more details on what promises to be a blockbuster hearing on the january 6 hearing and we'll have much more on that. we begin with the verdict in the alex jones trial where a jury has just awarded nearly $1 billion in damages to the family members of the sandy hook victims, people who suffered from the lines that alex jones started spreading hours after the massacre. harry lipman joins us, a former u.s. attorney and former deputy assistant attorney general. let me just not go the down the rabbit holes of alex jones but the families had pain and suffering from the massacre being described as a hoax and the nearly billion dollars in damages does nothing, nothing to deal with their grief but it was as signal, it seems harry, that

the jury felt that it was represent henceible. >> even his defense attorney said in close, nicole. this is a despicable human being and, of course, he's the vilest vermin out there on the landscape. yes. it doesn't compensate them for their suffering but, man, does it wallop jones. there's going to be maybe some post-appeal skirmish -- post-trial skirmish ed, but he'll be dodging this now for the rest of his life trying to declare bankruptcy. already his parent company, the second of three trials, declared bankruptcy after the -- the last one. this was one of those cases where the jury comes back and says can we give more than the plaintiffs want? >> wow. >> he was shown to be -- in 14 days of testimony to be so despicable, but more than despicable, causing such

gratuitous pain to those who were already suffering terribly. >> again, i think our viewers are familiar with the tragedy but maybe not as familiar with what traffic on infowars. i think this jury deliberated since october 6th so they spent some time with the evidence that had been presented to them. >> yeah. >> this is from the "new york times" quick write-up as soon as the -- the decision was read in court. alex jones and infowars parent company free speech systems must pay family members of eight victims of the shootings at sandy hook elementary and an fbi agent who responded to the scene of the 2012 massacre which killed 20 first graders and six educators. jones has been found liable for defamation after he spent years falsely describing the shooting as a hoax and accusing the victims' families of being actors, complicit in a plot. as a result the families were threatened in person and online. he used his info wars platform

to spread these lies. one of his earliest conspiracy lies was about the plot being part of a conspiracy to confiscate guns. >> right, and this is what of course he's now saying after having a default judgment. he didn't even contest the defamation part for -- it's actually 15 plaintiffs, eight different victims including an fbi agent. now he's waiving the first amendment flag, and that will not take him very far at all in defamation. there will be a couple of things, nicole, that i'll point out to your listeners. first, it was such an enormous case. it was hard to know how it evaluate damages, so the plaintiffs' attorney asked for $1 for each of the 550 million views that people saw of jones' defamatory speech. that's pretty loosey-goosey and might go up and on general they will argue in appeal so much is the product of passion and not

reason. it doesn't matter each after being reduced. it's an amount, that you know, now takes him out of the -- out of society and having to dodge for the rest of his luv. one thing to be aware of is the possibility of bankruptcy fraud which he's already potentially being investigated for. if he tries to get out of this by claiming he has no money when he does, that puts him in criminal hot water. >> harry, don't go anywhere. we need you. let me add to our coverage nbc news correspondent rehema ellis who has been covering the trial for us, raheema. >> we should tell you this is the third day of deliberations, some 17 hours these jurors, six members, three men, three women, had been deliberating this case. about what award, if anything, beyond a dollar they would give to 15 plaintiffs. that included eight people who were killed at sandy hook and an

fbi agent who said that he was slandered beyond repair in terms of his reputation by people who he said were followers of alex jones. this is really a stunning verdict by the jury, and they are saying that jones and free speech systems should be paying these 15 plaintiffs. as you point out, almost $1 billion. as was just mentioned, the plaintiffs' attorney had suggested to the jurors that they come back with $550 million verdict for the point there was an estimated 500 million viewers from the sandy hook hoax contacts on alex jones' site but they did more than that. they nearly doubled that. almost $1 billion. in the courtroom you could see some of the family members, their head in hands, and they were just sobbing, crying over what had happened. this has been a long journey for

them. and in this particular case this trial taking place, only 18 miles, almost 20 miles from the site of where 26 people were killed almost two years ago in december of 2012, and now after all this time when they said that alex jones started claiming that they were actors, that it was all a hoax and they found themselves being victimized by whom they said were followers of alex jones, listening to his lies. they decided to sue. today they were vindicated with this verdict of nearly $1 billion against alex jones and free speech systems. >> raheema, it's important that people understand what the families were put through, how they were retraumatized to reach this verdict. parents of some of the 20 kids murdered in the massacre testified during the weeks long trial detailing how they faced years of death threats, rape threats, confrontations outside their houses from people who

listened to and believed jones' lies. >> even during this trial there was concern that people were being taunted. even the chat room that was on the website where you could view the trial had to be taken down because of what was considered vicious and threatening remarks that were being made on that particular site. one father pointed out that the horror that he experienced and the emotional strain and distress from some alex jones followers who each went so far as to threaten to to fame his child's grave site. he talked about people urinating at the grave site and even threatening to dig up his child's grave in order to prove that it was just a lie, but, of course, it wasn't. alex jones was found liable of

defamation and now he must pay nearly $1 billion for this verdict against alex jones and, again, against his company, free speech systems. >> harry lipman, what is -- what systems exist in the law to make sure that this massive financial penalty which does nothing to alleviate the suffering from the loss of their kids? i'm sure all of these family, i know all of these families would trade every penny to have their kids back for a minute. what exists in the law to make sure that the financial penalty is paid by jones? >> yeah. let's first note what exists in the law to actually give payback for lose because we've assumed over the last many years there's nothing that can be done. we've accepted it. just today trump was ordered to stabbed together until a defamation suit against jean carroll and this is the same. the law can sometimes redress the lies themselves.

what can be done? it's an old sorry tale, one thing to get a verdict and another thing to chase it. you can attach his assets. i'm sure there will be subs kept litigation where we'll say bankruptcy and they will get forensic investigators and say he doesn't have it, but we're talking about such outsized numbers that even if he's able to bob and weave some, i just don't see how he winds up anything but basically broke now for the rest of his life, so it's -- in fact, defendants who have been held quilty often do squirrel away. one of them is named donald trump but there are mechanisms to attach assets and at the end of the day the sheriff will come and attach the home once you can prove that he's got assets to pay. that will be the fight. and if he doesn't have enough, everything he does have goes to them. >> harry -- raheema, go ahead.

>> i wanted to mention that this was the defamation -- the damages part of this defamation trial. in the defamation trial itself, there was a default verdict, and that was because alex jones refused to comply with the court procedure to present evidence to the plaintiff so that the trial could go forward. he was given time and time again to do that so the judge said because are you not complying with the court rules about defending yourself, she rendered a default verdict. jones later complained that he was not given an opportunity to speak his mind and to defend himself, but the truth of the matter is he was given it and he defaulted on presenting the evidence in order for them there to be a full trial in reference to defamation charges so that brought us to where we are today with the damages coming income and the other thing is jones was not even there for the closing

argument. his attorney did not put on a case, put on no witnesses including jones himself. he left connecticut before closing arguments. nicole. >> nbc's rehema ellis covering all of this for us. thank you so much. we'll stay on it. we are going to change gears to news we mentioned at the top of this hour. the january 6th select commit's first hearing in months is set to take place tomorrow afternoon. it could not come at a more critical time for our country just a few weeks ahead of the mid-term election day. voting is already under way in several key states where slates of election deniers and some outright proud insurrectionists are hoping to win elected offices with potentially dire consequences for our democracy if they win. the panel which reinvented the modern congressional hearing with its lively mix of footage from taped depositions and live witness testimony now have to refocus the country's attention on the deadliest attack on the

u.s. capitol in accept industries and a political landscape that have changed. not only have big lie republicans won their primaries in key swing states the committee vice chair liz cheney has lost. her primary and has dedicated herself to keeping donald trump and big lie advocates out of office all while the ex-president's legal jeopardy has increased immensely with at criminal investigation in the mishandling of government documents resulting in the unprecedented search of his private residence. in the new york a lawsuit that threatens to bring down his family business and a criminal referral accusing him and his kids of fraud. it's in the mid of all that the committee wants to remind the public that donald trump was the driving force behind the january 6th attack and the plot to overturn the will of the american voters. axios reports this, quote, the committee's last hearing before the mid terms and perhaps ever will focus overwhelmingly on one central antagonist, former

president trump and won't feature live testimony. lawmakers on the panel want to minimizance layersy players becoming a sideshow. new reporting suggests that the committee has its hands on a mountain of new evidence after following map laid out by former white house aide cassidy hutchinson. here's a bit what have she testified to before the committee. >> had an interesting committee with ride, mark, sounds like he was going to go to the capitol. he didn't look up at his phone and said there's a lot going on, cass, but, i don't know. things might get real, real bad on january 6th. >> miss hutchinson, is it your understanding that mr. ortuno told the president about weapons at the real on the morning of january 6th? >> that is what was related to me. >> his response is they can march to the capitol from the ellipse? >> something to the effect of

take the f'ing mags away. >> the president say i'm the f'ing president, take me up to the capitol now to which bobby responded, sir, we have to go back to the west wing. the president reached up towards the front of vehicle to grab at the steering wheel. mr. engle grabbed his arm and said, circumstances you need to take your hand off the steering wheel. we're going back to the west wing. we're not going to the capitol. mr. trump then used his free hand to lung towards bobby engle. >> i remember pat saying to him something to the effect of the rioters got into the capitol, mark, we need to go down and see the president now and marked looked up at him and said he doesn't want to do anything, pat. >> because he liked it. now all that blockbuster

testimony came back in june. now stwoesht reporting that the committee austin powers to have corroborated all of it from that reporting, quote, the probably final public hearing of the house committee investigating the january 6th, 2021 attack on the u.s. capitol is expected to the high lie newly obtained secret service records showing how president donald trump was repeatedly alerted to brewing violence that day and he still sought to stoke the conflict. surveillance footage the committee plans to share was taken near the elimits that morning before the speech and shows throngs of supporters clustered just outside the corralled area tore the stop the steal real. some concluded they stayed outside the rally area to avoid having their weapons cop physical kated. there ear owes accounts of staff members warning trump about the risk and reality of violence that day as he continued to

press nervous secret service agents. the january 6th committee hearing against donald trump is where we begin today. one of the reporters is on the "the washington post" scoop we just read from and also an msnbc contributor and harry lipman and former democratic congresswoman donna everett is back and rick stengel, former state department official and also msnbc political analyst. jackie, take me through your reporting. >> well, i think the most notable part of my reporting from today with my colleagues league lehnig is some of the e-mails that we'll see for the first time. since the committee ended their last hearing the department of homeland security turned over a mountain of new evidence as you pointed out, over a million different documents, though notably not the deleted text messages that the committee was originally seeking from january 6th and january 5th, but a lot of other e-mails, microsoft teams and communications between secret service agents and other

administration officials which are going to be seep tomorrow. one of the e-mails that we may and are likely to see is newly obtained documents between 1:30 and 2:30 p.m. where secret service supervisor had checked with bobby engel, the person who was with the former president and his head body person who was seeking an urgent update about whether or not trump's plan to go to the capitol despite the very apparent violence going on was quashed. this is another piece of evidence that we've seen and the testimony we've heard from cassidy hutchinson and various other witness who knew firsthand of the former president's intensions on that day despite the reports, the surveillance footage and many other different streams of information that were coming in, notifying the white house and his top allies that

there was violence and that there was -- that there was the threat of violence as well. >> let me play some of the radio traffic that illustrates what -- what seems to represent where the investigation is headed after that last public hearing. >> individuals in a tree, a white male, about 6 feet tall, brown cowboy boots heat. got blue jeans and a blue jean jacket and he has an ar 15. he's with a group of individuals, 5 feet from other individuals. two of the individuals in that group beneath the tree are in green fatigues, about 5'8", 5'9", skinny white males, brown cowboy boots, glock-style pistols in their waist. >> he sent a message that the --

maybe sure they know they have an elevated let in the tree. look for the cow boy boots and weapons on the right side hip. >> i've got leave it people of walk down the street. one care keg an ar-15. >> ron johnson, your armed insurrection is calling. jackie alemany, what does ppd stand senator. >> that radio frequency by the way was very difficult for the january 6th committee to initially get their hands on, and once that frequency landed in their laps, there was a realization that secret service might not have been as forthcoming or cooperative as they had sort of communicated that they were.

this then caused the committee to go back to dhs and request every single bit of frequency available from that day. we know that those were handed over so we could seer additional testimony played in realtime as well as new surveillance footage along the lines of what you just played, nicole. a lot of this information as well is going to poke more holes in bobby engel and tony or nota's stories. as up investigator said to me, you know, this is going to point out that these guys were just not being very honest, including in their closed door deposition when they often were respond willing to detailed questions that cassidy hutchinson was able to answer, that they were responding that they couldn't recall. >> we've heard that the

information is being put forward shouldn't be the case that these money who were integral to the president's actions sunday-of-shouldn't have such a short memory when it came to these various incidents. >> harry, the circumstances and let me read some more of jackie's incredible reporting with her colleague. this is what they have. some of the information -- this is from the story. quote, some of the information that is called into question, both men told the committee in closed door depos they wouldn't recall certain events including trump demand that he let armed people into the real and one of the committee's newly on taped dock thumt between 1:30 and 2 p.m. a senior secret service operative e-mailed bobby engel with an urgent update seeking if

trump's plan to go to the capital was squashed. it came after an hour which -- with them to go down to the insurrection. they wanted to make sure that president biden stay put. this means they were communicating the threat assess president for the president's protective detail because they knee he wented to go to the insurrection. it seems the committee has him dead to rights that there was violence as you can see on tv but they had the granular details that there was two individuals wearing green a teeing and freezing rain. he knew exactly what was there. fmt i'm the f'ing president. they won't shoot me.

it seems like all the questions about the spontaneity of the violence and the president's none. violence are blown out of the water by the committee develop these threads of the investigation. >> that's basically right, and that's the important point. this isn't about hutchinson versus ortuno. ortuno's credibility is in -- there's essentially no tout and others and there was the relationship to the violencech he knew they were armed. he said get them away from the magnometers and he watched as the violence proliferated. he later on basically apologized or said or shizzed with the rioters. not an ortuno hutchinson point. maybe it started as a general history but it's a tragedy now

about one evil tyrant being donald trump. that's the focus they are going to keep it on tomorrow and whatever the details of oornato and ferment real further his rabbit followers really will not be in doubt. >> reporter: hair, what sort of exposure to deem who may have lied to the committee have? >> it's straightforward. i believe ornato was not in deposition. you make a falt statement and the crime is $1,001. i don't expect that they will be wholesale, you know, practice from doj, but that's the exposure that they have, and, of course, if it's perjury that is

to say they have sworp it's worse, but it's against the law but probably they will get a pass. >> how do you get to the point where the secret service is either wittingly or unwittingly going in and lying about an insurrection? >> oh, boy. you know, we've seen a gradual radicalization of law enforcement in the united states. i mean, one of the hallmarks of encroaching fascism and authoritarianism is the referees, the legal people, the police, all become habituated to this culture of violence. it's kind of aid maizing to see what is happening at the hearing. i mean, we've already made assumptions about what woe think trump did and what they did a beauty story telling, a concentric story from outside police officers and people who were hurt that day and then a medium circle of people around trump and then to the core, to the heart of the conspiracy donald trump himself, and that's

what -- that's the nail they are going to hit on the head tomorrow because it may be their last hearing. it's kind of a closing argument and they just want to say this guy was responsible. he knew everything that was going on, a violent insurrection of the united states. the worst situation we've had since the civil war and he was in the heart of the heart of it, and he just wanted to go there. he wanted to have a custer's last stand him level. >> he planned it -- he spent out -- sent out the tweet that sent them there. >> i want to be fair to the seeblg seek and how many i represent the reporting, jackie, so let me read this to you. you report, quote, some of the information call into the previous testimony of engel and ornato and a secret service serving as deputy white house

chief of staff. both men said in closed door depositions that they could not recall certain events including trump's demand that the secret service let armed people into his rallies. what's the committee's view on that testimony? >> and i think that that's a really good question, nicole. as one investigator told me they believed those men were not being very honest where they were claim they couldn't recall certain events, but in due course we'll actually be able to eventually most likely read these themselves. they are going to replace every single transcript and interview document related to the investigation once the final report is out and internet sleuths at home will be able to do their own reading and parsing of these questions that ornato

and engel weren't able to answer. the committee will have them before the end of the year when the report is due and how that will make sense in the scheme of things but the point that harry makes is the most important point of all which at the end of the day it doesn't matter about their credibility but the facts and facts are that the former president consistently wanted to go to the capitol despite very well knowing and the people around him knowing that it was problematic, that there was violence and that it would only further whip up the violence that was already taking place and that these threat were long-standing. tony ornato had communicated these threats prior to january 6th so there was not only information in realtime throughout the course of the day burr also ahead of time is at eke seek was doing their job.

>> i want to pick up a point in what to expect in terms of a closing argument on the snuksist in chief. >> those who invaded our capitol and battled law enforcement for hours were motivated. president trump said that the election was stolen and that he was the rightful president. president trump summoned the mob, sent the mob and lit the flame of this attack. the strategy to blame what his advisers called the craze for what donald trump did. this of course is nonsense. president trump is a 76-year-old man. he is not an impressionable child. donald trump made a purposeful choice to violate his oath of

office. there is no way to excuse that behavior. it's indefensible. >> donna edwards, what are you looking for snowstorm. >> i expect -- keep in mind, most americans, many watched the hearings previously but haven't been following all this in as much detail as we are, and so i think it's going to be important for the committee to refresh lou recollection of what got us to this point and then to put a bow on it and to really lay out the case against donald trump, and i don't think that it can be each one of the committee members all talking because that's just lawmakers taking, so i expect, you know, the combination of visual evidence plus recordings and plus the committee members really bringing us up to date

and telling the story of donald trump's role, demonstrating the story of donald trump's role in stoking the violence and calling for the violence and then not doing anything about it when all the people around him saw that law enforcement were being attacked. members of coming, his own vice president, and this is an important closing argument in the weeks before the mid-term elections. i think when voters go the polls, they may not have democracy as their number of up thing, but it has to be in the mix, and this is one way to make sure that it is. >> let mow show all of you what committee member adam kinzinger said on sort of the idea of what the committee has achieved and what it hopes to hand off, if you will, to doj. >> we over been able to fill in gaps that maybe were things we suspected but didn't fully know and now we, have you know,

confirmation of that. also think about the fact that, look, other's the reality though. people like mark meadows, you know, dan scavino, it's hard to get information when they refuse to come and talk to us. we've been able to do the best to get around that and the department of justice because of some of the work we've done if not all of the work that we've been able to do realized this is a bigger issue than they thought or maybe that they had evidence for so they will be able to get the information maybe that we weren't. >> harry lichman. we all have so much probable cause, evidence in front of us because trump creates so many crimes when things can be poured over. what would the towel application

look like to make it appear that donald trump had committed a crime on january 6th? >> first, kinzinger, if anything, is underplaying their role of they have done a magnificent -- they have had a great turn on the stable but now they are leaving the staple, but one thing to keep in mind. they gone for the low hanging fruit so they have presented masterfully many different chapters. the doj coup, the electors and -- and the like. each of those is an individual crime, so the doj would have to take and is in the process now of taking them and filling in the very particulars of each episode to make out a crime beyond a reasonable doubt, taking account of all the offenses and the like, but it's a different job and i certainly agree with him that

themematically they have a one-two punch. they have to be much more detailed and beyond a reasonable doubt construct a kay. there are several there that they are considering. people have different opinions about what would be stronger, but generally they have a different job, but they have been aided immeshelly by what the committee has done. >> to one is going anywhere. when we all come back the d.c. officers that we as a public have come to know in the aftermath of january 6th. they have been calling for justice and accountability since the very public hearing had in the january 6 committee and they are still asking for justice and accountability today. we'll talk about that next and michael cohen will be here on dangers of the ex-president, his old boss, and the dangers that he and those around him still

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♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ it's the most wonderful time of the year ♪ claritin provides non-drowsy symptom relief ♪ ♪ from over 200 indoor and outdoor allergens, day after day. feel the clarity and make today the most wonderful time of the year. live claritin clear. i heard chants of kill him with his own gun. i could still hear those words head today. >> one latched on to my face and got his thumb in my right eye and tried to gouge it out. >> iaw friends with blood all over their faces.

i was slipping in people's blood. it was carnage. >> 20 people joined in screaming boo [ bleep ]. no one had ever, ever called me a [ bleep ] while wearing the uniform of a capital police officer. >> i follow like i went to hell and back to protect them and the people in this room, but too many are now telling me that hell doesn't exist or that hell actually wasn't that bad. the indifference shown to my colleagues is disgraceful. >> we are not asking for medals, recognition. we simply want justice and accountability. >> justice and accountability that has not come of more than one year since the insurrection and these officers are still waiting for and for the violent insurrectionists and their supporters and their backers at the highest levels of the

republican party in the united states of america who put those men and women in harm's way on that day to pay a price or at least acknowledge is. here's officer michael fanone today. >> the selection committee i think has done, you know, an outstanding job investigating root causes of january 6th. it was very clear at the end that, you know, donald trump engaged in defrauding the american people, lying to them about, you know, the election, 2020 election and having not been a free and fair election, and -- and i think he needs to be held accountable. >> back with jackie, harry, donna and rick. donna, you worked in that building. these men and women never sought any attention for anything. they are in the limelight now because what they went through is being white washed by one. two political parties in our country. >> yeah. this is why i think the work of

the january 6th committee to wrap this up is really important and then for the justice department to do its job because without that, i mean, thee capital police officers continue to show up every single day and to do their job protecting lawmakers and the staff on the capitol. i mean, they do amazing work, and i know from my own experience on capitol hill that we wouldn't have been able to accomplish what we did without -- without their work and their protection and so we owe them. the american public owes them a debt for accountability, and i don't think that that's too much to ask, and that accountability can come both through the january 6th committee and its conclusions, but it really has to come through the department of justice. those are at the heist levels who continue to -- to deny what happened on january 6th to say let's put it aside and move on should not be able to do that without the accountability that

these officers are asked for and deserve. >> jackie, let me show you some more of what officer fanone had to say to my colleague alex wagner about kevin mccarthy specifically. >> what did shock me is the level of indifference that i experienced from people like kevin mccarthy and many of the other republicans leaders, and not only to me who was there, you know, trying to represent the other officers that responded to the capital that day, that fought to defend democracy and the lives of the individuals that were in the building, but also the indifference that he showed towards brian sicknick's mother, gladys sicknick. this is the mother of a fallen police officer, dead police officer, and many of these people, you know, took an adversarial position with this woman who was, you know, looking

for answers. >> jacky, this testimony, and it was the first public testimony that the committee featured before it started the -- the summer of highly produced testimony with the taped depositions interspersed, in some ways it's never been answered. i mean no, one has ever really had an explanation for how they would hold the 19 republican members of congress accountable who came to the white house, cassidy hutchinson testified about them planning and plotting to overthroat will of the voters in the roosevelt room. the defiance of kevin mccarthy to answer any questions about that phone call that everybody knows happened because one of his own colleagues talked about it, the tapes that have come out of him talking to members saying that impeachment would be fast enough so that the 25th amendment is probably the way to go. where does that leave sort of these officers? >> yeah. nicole, i'm so glad you're bring

attention to this because i think in the swirl of the investigation we -- we kind of have lost sight of what the committee opened up with, what the rationale for starting this committee was is people died that day, law enforcement officers who show up every day to protect me and the lawmakers, both democrats and republicans every day and put their lives on the line and put their lives on the line on january 6th. have still not gotten any of that accountability. specifically those people who did lose a loved one because of the events that have day, and you still have republican colleagues and republican lawmakers who act like january 6th never even happened. congressman louie gohmert just last month gave an american flag to one of the january 6th rioters who was just released from federal prison for breaking into the capitol, and so you have seen just republicans completely sweep this under the

rug and treat the event in the most politically expedient way possible, and that starts from the very top of at least house republicans and even further to the former president who has become essentially taken a pro insurrectionist position and that's what we're going to see in the closing arguments argument tomorrow, this argument that the insurrection is still going on. it's worse than ever, that it could happen again in the mid terms and in 2024 and that political violence is real. it is still a festering problem and that there could very well be another act of political violence because of the rhetoric and actions. and actions around the big lie. >> why is the answer to every republican who attacks every democrat about crime, where do you stand on crimes committed on the u.s. capitol on january 6th,

2021. >> good question. law enforcement overs on tape talking about the damage this they went through. they were trying to preserve the rule of law, preserve the peaceful transfer of power. i just want to pick up on what jackie said which is so important. one of the transitions that democracies make into authoritarian regimes or fascism is the embrace of violence and that's what we saw on january 6th, but the normalization of it is the most dangerous part. with these republican legislators ron johnson saying it was a picnic, nothing happened there. when you normalize violence like that, then you do invoke the whirlwind as jackie said and then you have violence in 2022 and 2024. we have to dal what it is and the democratic opponents in the election have to say this is the height of irresponsibility. >> jackie, congratulations on the scoop. harry lipman, thanks for being here all hours to provide the breaking news and it's always a

treat to talk to you. thank you. up next for us, we'll head back out to arizona where voting is under way-for-mail-in voting. p how are the republicans who shouted rigged for months urging their supporters to vote? we'll be back with a reality check. don't go anywhere. back with a y check. don't go anywhere. when moderate to severe ulcerative colitis persists... put it in check with rinvoq, a once-daily pill. when uc got unpredictable,... i got rapid symptom relief with rinvoq. check.

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go until actual election day in these mid terms. one of those states is arizona where 80% or more of people there use early voting. the republican nominees for the state's top three statewide offices are major proponents and backers and spreaders of the big lie. in to 20 they called into question early voting. as one source of the debunked allegations of vote fraud, but now the election deniers are singing a different tune when it comes to mail-in ballots and early voting. nbc news' von hilliard is in maricopa where nearly 92% of the vote came through early voting. how are the republicans squaring the circle there? >> well, if we may, let's start off with a little bit of irony here, nicole. one of the individual -- i'm not

talking about 2020 but i'm talking about 2022 primaries. who voted by mail? none other than kari lake, the republican candidate for governor, who -- it's important to note. voter files are public records, not who you voted for but whether you voted or whether you voted by mail and back in december of 2021 kari lake requested to be on the early ballot list, she got it and the primary here was august 2nd and yet she mailed it in and it was received on july 27th. just earlier this year that she filed a brief with the lawsuit that was filed by the arizona republican party to try to completely dismantle and get rid of mail-in voting. that was thwarted by the arizona supreme court but at the same time while these candidates have largely been talking about anti-mail-in ballots really in large part, you've seen the likes of mark finchum who wants to runt elections in the state, almost entirely has voted by mail. it's more than irony and just a blatant reality that they act

one way while talking another way to believe what one would believe to be the former president himself. >> herschel walker is sort of in a race to the bottom with arizona republicans in that category. i want to ask you about the democrats facing these big lie republicans. what are their closing messages, vaughan? >> reporter: you know, i think katie hobbs' campaign is the one that if we may take a look at it because the i think her campaign is a little different than the democrat running for secretary of state as well as chris mays, the democrat running for attorney general. both have both been vocal, very front and center especially about this democracy issue and the threats posed by these republicans candidate. when you look at katie hobbs, we just posted on nbcnews.com here just this afternoon insights from supporters of katie hobbs, not only independents and even republicans including a former mccain advisers who told me that he wants to be front and center

for the hobbs' operation and said let me know how i can help at the same time that hobbs maintained the lead. she's not been vocal or on the front lines there, and i was talking with a local democratic chairwoman over in the west valley of phoenix who said her group, her organization dating back to january, had been asking katie hobbs to come out and speak with her locke rall democratic activists and they have heard crickets from katie hobbs over the course of the last step months and of course notably katie hobbs is choosing not to take part in the debate slated to take place this evening against kari lake, essentially ceding the floor for 30 minutes for what is a statewide run debate in which kari lake is going to have the television screen to herself, and the pbs moderator of this debate ted simons who has done this for a long time, he even noted to the local paper it's not his job to debate carri lake

and at the same time there's a reality that she's consistently been not only a election denier and conspiracy theorist on a myriad of issues and it really poses questions as to katie hobbs' campaign strategy here in the final 27 days. >> rick, what are you watching? >> well, i'm wondering whether, and i'm going ask vaughan this question now. arizona is a state where all of the charges about election fraud have been refuted, all of the cases. >> by trump's open coalition, by whatever they were called, ninja turtles. >> what i'm looking for that having some effect on swing voters, but is there any evidence that it's having any effect arizona? >> reporter: that's the big question. i actually asked kari lake that question yesterday, how she was urging her voters to vote after we called the voting by mail in other own primary and she wants voters to show up at polling places on election day but if they do get a mail-in ballot

she's telling them to go and send that mail-in ballot in here and what we saw was on election night, you saw the numbers switch around there, and i think the big concern is when you're looking at the rural parts of arizona here, i was up in williams, arizona, if you look at a map there's a lot of rural parts here and usually it was the republicans in the state that not only introduced mail-in voting but are the ones so heavily relying on it because there's folks that have to drive long distances to be able to either vote in person or drop off their mail-in ballot here, and so it poses questions, would the voters actually show up on election day or not. >> vaughn hillyard on the front lines of this contest over democracy in phoenix for us, rick stengel with us on set. thanks very much. up next for us, michael cohen will join us on set on his brand-new book and what he describes as a story of how he became a political prisoner in his own country at the directive of his ex-boss donald trump. don't go anywhere.

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having something to do with paying some storm daniels woman $130,000, i mean, which is going to turn out to be perfectly legal. that money was not campaign money. sorry, i'm giving you a fact now that you don't know. it's not campaign money. no campaign finance violation. so funneled it through the law firm? >> funnelled it through the law firm and the president repaid it. >> oh, i didn't know that he did. that was money that was paid

by -- by his lawyer the way i would do out of his law firm fund or whatever fund, doesn't matter, but the president reimbursed that over a period of several months. >> hi again, everyone. it's 5:00 in new york. that lawyer was michael cohen thrown under the bus from the very beginning of the trump presidency. michael cohen, president trump's perm attorney, ultimately spent time behind bars for following through with trump's wishes. while the ex-president has so far avoid any and all accountability. in cohen's brand-new book "revenge" he explains his fall from fixer and insider to fall guy, detailing how trump used doj as a weapon against him. from the book, quote, one doj investigator confided in us that i was the fall guy once trump decided to run for office. quote, don't telco help too much was trump's mantra, according to this agent. meanwhile those close to the president were privately pushing for the dodge to investigate me.

cohen was sentenced to three years in prison after a guilty plea that included campaign finance violations for his involvement in the paying of hush money to stormy daniels. he writes this, quote, at first it looked like the fbi was trying to squeeze me as widely reported. conventional wisdom would have you believe that the pressure applied to me was done so would i spill everything i know about donald trump. but donald trump drunk with his new found power believed what i knew could never kill the king. he was probably giddy as a kid at christmas getting his own bb gun as he watched doj go after me. their success would be his exoneration. cohen goes on to explain how the doj and especially a.j. bill barr, trump's new fixer as he calls them, forced cohen out from home confinement back into prison after he cooperated with investigators. here's cohen lawyer are reflecting on that silencing of cohen. quote, very quickly i saw that the government had overreached.

donald trump went out of his way to threaten and ridicule michael cohen. it would surprise me if he were not aware of this. the former president's fixer recognized this was exactly how his former boss operated. quote, you're trying to tell me donald trump had nothing do with my remand. that's his fingerprint, bs, lies, distortion, deflection. the moves the government made are more of a vind for me. they are an indictment of and evidence of a department of justice that has been commandeered by the president of the united states to be used as his own personal billy club. an inside look at donald trump's weaponization of the doj from a man who personally experienced it is where we begin this hour with michael cohen, host of the mea culpa podcast and author of the brand new book "revenge, how donald trump weaponizeded the u.s. department of justice against his crickets." the most provocative thing in this book and there's a lot of

provocative story telling that no one has heard before. michael cohen was the victim of insidious krumpingts they, one of the doj sources explain. no one will speak on the record. cohen got screwed but so did so many others. what was different in cohen's says that his was a case of political corruption. michael was a political prisoner. do you file that way? >> and it's one of the reasons why i wrote "revenge." the problem is that every single aspect of government that we believe has an issue that is corrupt, that is problematic from the irs to the doj to the prosecutors, certain judges and so on, all converged upon me and all at the same time with the 48-hour demand that if i didn't plead guilty they were filing an 85-page indictment against me that was going to include my wife. first time ever in my life. i have one speeding ticket in my

entire live in 1985. i don't think i've even had a park ticket. i've never not paid taxes. in fact, i paid millions of dollars in taxes. was there an omission? yes. however, they didn't each give me an opportunity to become aware that there was an emission. i never received a letter. there was no file. they came down on me in 48 hours from a friday to a monday. you plead guilty or we indict you and your wife and we person walk you both out of your home. >> why do you think they did that? >> because i believe trump, the administration and a whole slew of others needed that in order to relinquish what was coming against him, and he thought that me being indicted, me being incarcerated would stop the conversation about him, and as we know that's not what happened. >> and do you think it was because -- i mean, this interview, rudy goes out and sort of this bizarre mic drop

moment where hannity says oh. . do you think they thought if you paid the price that he would never be scrutinized. i mean, why would you pay stormy daniels money. why do you think they thought doing away with you and locking you up would save donald trump? >> it was also partially a test, a test of my loyalty to him, my undivided loyalty that i would take the rap for him. don't worry, we'll be there, you know, you have people as bob costello had written, friends in high places. they are going to take care of you. that's the m.o. that he claims. that's the same thing that he said to a bunch of these insurrectionists. don't worry. i'm going to pay your legal fees. he doesn't pay for anything and he doesn't care what happens to them. this is all about ensharing that he is exonerated from the entire russia scandal, that they would be exonerated from stormy daniels and then karen mcdougal. i got charged and i pled guilty

and i was fined by the court despite the fact that they all knew, prosecutors, the judge, everyone, i never paid karen mcdougal. had a was paid by david perk and the "national enquirer." i was asked to look at documents to see that donald was protected in the event that david went elsewhere as the new ceo. >> where is this like a scene out of the "the firm." when do you realize that the doj had broken bad for you? >> on a friday night at 5:30 p.m. or the very first time my attorney ended up meeting with them that i told them that you're either going to plead guilty by monday or that 85-page indictment was coming and then worse than that is they were going to include my wife. >> do you think donald trump give them that directive or idea? >> absolutely.

everything had to come from him. >> and he was tweeting about your wifrk the contemporaneous twitter feed. >> just like everything. watched it on rudy colludy. all nonsense. the fact this guy was once considered america's mayor is the laughing stock. he sounds like a fool because he is a fool, and the problem is when you're trying to prove something that you know is a lie it's very difficult and one then lie begets another lie and he's being told by donald what to say and is trying to put his own spin on it and the alcohol doesn't help when he's speaking and the next thing you know you get a statement like that. the problem is i became the fall guy and there was no way for me to get out from underneath it, not within a 48-hour period from a friday to a monday. in the book we spoke to many prosecutors and judges. they have never heard of anything like this. i didn't wright my allocution, they wrote it and they told me

this is how you're going to respond to the judge. anything shy of that and there's no deal. >> once you were already sort of being cross-preshd you're by both sdny and the mueller probe, was jared kushner telling you what to say? >> no, jared kushner was only involved when i had lied to congress. this is another thing, too. a lot of people on social media, even in the press, they keep saying oh, you know, cohen paid stormy daniels and karen mcdougal. as i said i did not. cohen committed tax evasion. i'm a guy who has never not paid tax ed. lanny davis went crazy, all over television, with clips on how -- how you prove a case of tax evasion, and none of the elements of tax evasion are there for me. i've never ever received a letter from the irs. i was never given an tune. in fact, in the book there's a woman who works at the southern distribute of new york named andrea grise world, and the

email is in there. she basically threatened my accountants that if they tried to file amended tax returns that they would scrutinize those returns, it would be financially and legally more injurious to me than what was already going on. >> how does sdny in your view conduct itself in a way that lacks integrity and attachment to the truth and this fail to ever investigate trump's businesses. >> again, why would you go after the king when you can go or the joker. >> you're the joker? >> i became the joker and became the evil villain and i was the guy who was lying to get myself some benefit? really? wh benefit that i got? three years, you know, ended up pleading guilty to -- now, i am responsible for stormy daniels. i absolutely acknowledge my responsibility in that, but the other allegations, they are just lies, and the southern district

is well known from anybody who practices law, they refer to themselves as the sovereign district of new york. they do what they want. now, i don't want this to be an entire sdny. it's really no. it's more the entire justice department. we see every day like this gentleman say yesterday adnan after 29 years this, goes on all over the country and it's a problem because the system is broken. this mass incarceration and human wearhouse for the purpose of appeasing and more importantly for prosecutors in order to get a leg up. they need a conviction rates. they all tell you we have 98% conviction rate. if you think you are one of the winners good luck to you. they do that so they can end up in white shoe firms like in my case. all of these guys, they all end up at these big firms with search-figure salaries, off

what, their bio? look um their bios, successfully prosecuted u.s. versus cohen. i pled guilty to a one-page envelopes. >> and the point is they didn't even try to go after the big fish when was donald trump. the point is you were a joke prumpingts explain why that -- i'm going to go look for all of this, all the law firm websites. that's fascinating. i've never heard that. >> it's not fascinating. >> no, but it's sort of misrepresenting what you were in terms of -- i mean, the trump crime ring is out there. they are luring classified documents over the intelligence agencies with all the lawyers. you couldn't make it up on a bad streaming show but the point is they didn't really get anyone -- they didn't get anyone who conspired to commit crimes and you call yourself a joker. >> one. things that i said i would

provide. i didn't sign an you a xwreemt because i didn't do anything wrong. i did say to the southern district of new york, tom mckay, i'll provide you with whatever information you want. in fact, i did the same thing with tish james and the same thing with attorney general's office when it was under sy vance, and after my testimony there's 15 different investigations. >> why aren't they going after trump? >> well, they are. we know the district attorney has the trump organization now on trial and i don't care what anybody says, weisselberg's testimony will be against donald as it relates to the trump organization because donald is the trump organization. there's nobody else. he is the head. he's the middle. he's the feet. he's everything. there is nothing that is done at the trump organization that is not authorize the, signed the -- whether it's thing a

significance of the paper clips or the acquisition of a piece of real estate. everything. >> you willingly signed up for your role and what do i think after watching what happened to you and to done mcgann, all of these sort of government maurs saying i drew the line, like around 3:00. these like contortions of morality and kristina bobb is now the lower in trouble. how does he keep getting people toll do what you once again. >> as the former president of the trump situation. you don't want to lose your job.

request bobb's mistake was she was preshd uby mr. corcoran telling her that everything was september back. face that they true her understand the bus and used her as the new lawyer and one of the things that someone like bores would say is you really don't want us to go back ant donald to say. we need you to do this. that's the whale problem. >> opinion. i remember you did this amazing and you said which one, all of them. what makes you believe in trump's bs? >> that was with brianna keilar. and i have to tell you that created a lot of memes which were very, very funny and i knew the pole. out of the 1,000 people. >> polling is broking.

>> he's improved twice. it is beninth dis. what makes it. >> well, he really doesn't. he's taken the bottom. barrel. she was a show host for oan. >> oan. >> that's not who you want to be signing off on documents. i do feel sorry for her. she got wrapped up into the stupidity of donald trump, but my hope with this book is i can't stand arm when people say you committed cruise missiles on behalf of grump. i was not radon van moving around with a bat. i was a sharp lawyer and plenty of people who we sued because people didn't want to pay or got hurt financially, but nothing like this. this is a whole new set of tine

mix when it comes to dealing with a man who is legitimately the most powerful person on the planet and a goose who is a narcissistic sociopath who doesn't care about anyone willing to do anything to protect himself, and i also believes that you're going to start to see the kids getting in big trouble and you'll see trump throw them under the bus, too, because he just doesn't care. >> what do you think happens to you and your family if he's president again? >> the actually heim going to movement i'm leaving the country. there's no doubt about it, and i think so many people will have to also. there is an enemy's list that donald has that's extremely long. it could be like up of those old sacred scrolls that just keeps going from like one of those movies, and it's -- it's dangerous because he's an autocrat wannabe. he looks up to the people like vladimir putin, like kim jong-un and mohammed ben salman. you see what's going on in russia. there's people who are critical of putin and are deciding, you

know, that they take leaps out the tenth story window. all of a sudden there's like six suicide of these oligarchs, none of it makes any sense. he's managed to so far be able to escape liability and everyone around him tangentially has been suffering and i think goes going to in -- we now a lot about that. there was a lot of great investigative journalism about that but we didn't know how he wanted to use doj used to punish his enemies. we know andrew mccabe was accused of trees op by donald trump and we know he tried to turn his gop.

>> he did. what part of the story of you using deejay and is talked about in your book. >> i don't want people just to believe me. trump is very successful using media to discredit me. cohen is the liar. cohen is the liar. the lie that i told to congress, do you know what the lie was? the number of -- the number of time i spoke with the real schoolkate project. donna, vionica and jared. there are all copies of the email. ten is the big lie. that's my big lie and these folks, when on social media, you know, people who are fans and people who hate me.

they all say the same thing. you committed so many crimes. you know where the bodies are buried and the crimes that i committed, yeah, stormy daniels, i acknowledge that one. thereto was no tax evasion or misrepresentation. did i hike the 3% versus 10%. i didn't do it for me. i did it at the direction of and for the benefit of donald trump and yet i'm the only one. >> did he offer you a pardon if you told that lie? >> no, no. it wasn't even a discussion and that's the whole thing, a whole other thing that came about, and all of this started with the lie of the steele dossier and the 11 allegations that were raised about me going to prague. you may remember. that thing just took off like a rocket ship and there was no drawing it back and that's the big problem. it just ran out of control. media, how many people in the media turn around and even claim that i told them i had been to prague? i've never been there. in fact, it's been proven by the

fbi, by everyone, that the time that they claimed that i was there i was in los angeles. my son was looking to play baseball for usc. we were on a scouting two, and then the day after i was with harvey levin on the at tmz in studio. unless i have the ability to teleport, you know, to -- from l.a. to prague, i've just never been there. >> i've got a lot of restaurant recommendations. you're not going anywhere. when we come back we'll talk about how the twice impeached ex-president weaponized the department of justice against him and michael's gears what should happen should he ever hold offers again. later in the hour, our politics panel tackles an essential question about this mid-term election campaign. how did republicans be tough on crime an at the same time defend donald trump and the insurrection? don't go anywhere. nald trump ane

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attorney general michael cohen and me at the table is the only person who could make this more fun. donny deutsch, i have to say when you were -- when you were in jail and when you were dealing with the other investigations, the only window into how much you were dishing really was your carefully parsed peeks into what you knew and what you were sharing and i wonder if you guys can just talk about your friendship. >> well, i know donny a long time. i'm not happy sitting at the table. too handsome. normally if i'm sitting with the backdrop on the wall.

>> like guy -- like donny doing push-ups in studio. >> he actually came to visit me. >> he smuggle something in? >> i'll tell you the story. >> it is hysterical. got me into a little bit of trouble and came to visit me on several occasions and been a great friend and really a rock and during everything that was going on here. i read to him my speech that i was going to make before the house oversight committee in advance of anybody else hearing it. he's been a great friend for a long time and i they arish it. >> what were the darkest moments like there for you? >> otisville. >> waking up. going to sleep and every second and every minute of every hour of every day while i was there. i shouldn't have been there. in fact, donald should have been there, don jr., jared, ivanka,

eric, they should have been there instead of me. missing your family, not being able to be there when they have things going on in their life, lose, you know, their happiness, my business, my law license, my happiness, everything. you lose it all. >> is there any amount of revenge that gives you that back? >> no, but you sigh revenge, while it's a play on words, is really more to tell the american people open up your eyes. if you like me, read the book. if you don't like me, really read the book because the man that you're following into this dumpster fire of hell is placing this democracy, placing o american democracy in peril and people don't realize democracy is not a constitutional right, it's an experiment, and this han has single-handedly figured out how to destroy it by use the justice department, by ignoring the three -- the three branches of government thinking that he

is the dictator, the supreme ruler, the monarch, the king and he can do whatever he wts those are not my words. those are his words. >> done? >> first of all, mikeal, you know, talk about a rock. i would have crumbled. i actually think having seen you in prison a few types and having spent so much time with you leading up to it. when you feel like the entire world is coming at you, i mean, literally the president, the entire government is lined up against you and we spent a lot of time in my office in my house and i don't know how you kept it together and you did and you're stronger than ever now. the scary thing that i want to say about donald trump is i wish our problem was just donald trump now, and you now have better packaged donald trumps, you have ron desaints we can go through the line, the governor that's running in arizona. >> kari lake. >> the governor that's running in pennsylvania. >> mastriano. >> these are people who are even more dangerous because they

present themselves in better packaging and better clothes. donald trump, it's easy if you're on the other side, look at craze guy, the hair, and the ridiculous things and now we have ivy educated he was ivy educated. ivy league types, if you will, and the scary thing right now is because donald trump will go down in history as a villain as he is what's to come, and i think it's on the table in the next few weeks whereas is this what the country wants. we keep making it about donald trump and i keep seeing these candidates winning and going, wait a send and when i see a stat that says up out of three people in this country, either pew or axios that would rather have a strong effective unelected leader than a less effective elected leader and that democracy right now is basically such a part of the country, particularly younger people, take it for granted.

oh -- >> as we also took roe for granted and we'll see additional cases follow the same suit and this is all, again, part of the plan. this is all donald's plan. >> you guys know better than anybody how to piss him off. how do you beat him? >> how do you beat him? >> you call him out. truth to oh, and you just keep doing it, and you can't be shy, right? donny -- i've seen donny go at donald in the past, and he's not shy. >> i'll tell you the way to go at him. what's the biggest thing from the time he was his kid, the biggest fear, to be a liars. you keep branding him a three-time loser. he lost by more votes than anybody who ever ran for president. he lost mid-term elections. certain candidates won. and he's a weak loser and you keep pounding that in and the only thing that will get through to the republicans is one or two more, we'll see what happened in the mid terms and 2024. just losing at some point has a stench that even the trumpist

trumpers start to move away from so what i brand him is loser domptd you lost, dude, you lost to joe biden. he's a nice guy and make fun of him and say he's 78. that s.o.b. kicked your butt. you got your butt kicked pal, you're a weak, weak little liars. that's how you get him. >> last word. >> i'm with donny 100% on it. you have to call him out. on everything. the second that he makes a comment you need to attack that comment. it's -- it's like going back to fifth grade, right, or fourth grade or maybe even third great and being mean inside the playground, right? that's what donald is. he's a playground bully. he won't fight himself. he'll get other people dumb like myself to do it, but that's -- that's really what he is. he's like a playground bill and there's only one way to both a bully. you've got to be meaner than he is. >> michael cohen's new book is

called "revenge, how donald trump we opized the department of justice against his critics. ". >> i'm sticking around. >> when we come back the lincoln project is coming out with a new ad that calls out republican hypocrisy. how can you be tough on crime when at every turn you defend a twice impeached ex-president who incited an insurrection. more after the break. don't go anywhere. d an insurrec. more after the break don't go anywhere. eatment it disrupts my skin with itch. it disrupts my skin with rash. but now, i can disrupt eczema with rinvoq. rinvoq is not a steroid, topical, or injection. it's one pill, once a day, that's effective without topical steroids. many taking rinvoq saw clear or almost-clear skin while some saw up to 100% clear skin. plus, they felt fast itch relief some as early as 2 days. that's rinvoq relief.

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we have some breaking news to tell you about in the investigation into national defense information taken to mar-a-lago, kept at mar-a-lago and lied about being returned to the national archives. "the washington post" has enough the moved a story along the loins about donald trump's match thorry of the my crow, talking about paper clips. "the washington post" has a story about boxes of documents. a trump employee has told federal agents about moving boxes of documents at mar-a-lago at the specific direction of the former president. that's according to people familiar with the investigation, who say the witness account combined with security camera footage offers key evidence of donald trump's behavior as investigators sought the return of classified material. let me read la little bit more before we bring in our guests. the witness description and footage described to "the

washington post" offer the most direct account to date of trump's actions and instructions leading up to the fbi's august 8th search of the florida residence and private club in which agents were looking for evidence of potential crimes including obstruction, destructionch government records and mishandling of classified information. joining our coverage, katty kay, u.s. correspondent and msnbc contributor and joining us former obama campaign manager david plouffe and rick wilson, former gop strategist and co-founder of the lincoln project and done still here. you were just literally making this point. there's nothing, nothing that happens in his world, that he doesn't not just know about but direct. >> go back to what his office -- i was up in his office a few types. it was a little crappy seven or eight rooms where he was sitting in the middle of it, his kids were inside. there's nothing that went on in that company there's nothing that went on in anything that

ever did that does not begin and end with him. he was an autocrat as a ceo, if you will, and there's -- there's nothing that's happening of any consequence that he doesn't havies in hands on. by the way, he would always have been the first one to tell you that. i'm everything. i'm this entire company, so there's no surprise at all >> usually to denigrate one or more of his children. >> let me read some more of this story that's just moved. people familiar with the investigation said agents have gathered witness accounts indicating that after trump advisers received a subpoena in may for any classified documents that remained at mar-a-lago, trump told people to move boxes to his residence at the property that. description of events was corroborated by the security camera footage which showed people moving the boxes from people who spoke unanimously. i spoke of this as like a dangling pieces of information that we from the doj filings. didn't have the filings but it

stood out to all the careful watchers of law enforcement and doj, that they subpoenaed more security camera footage. it's clear that there was an inside witness. they describe that person to the "the washington post" as a trump employee whose tim has been corroborated by that south after security camera footage. >> yeah. i remember after the story first broke and there were reports of people reason mar-a-lago, within the trump world getting anxious about who might have been the whistle-blower and if this person is now saying they were the one to move the boxes and the same person in a alerted the fbi to the fact there were sill documents in emlag oh, even after they told them they had everything, it would be interesting to know. the fact that the boxes were moved to the residence, how secure were the boxes, and what was in the boxes and what was left of the boxes because that's

still a big missing part of this. we've heard about the kim jong-un letter and obama letter and reports of top secret national security documents surrounding nuclear. it would so interesting to hear from this person directly and get more of their testimony. >> well, it's not likely that we will any time soon, but i want to -- again, i want to say this is all based on brand new reporting that's broke in the last five minutes. nbc news has not corroborate the any of this. "washington post" has some incredibly detailed accounting in this story, katty about, when this witness, who again who they describe as a trump employee, has told federal agents. let mow read a little bit more of this to you. the employee who was working at mar-a-lago is cooperating with the justice department and has been interviewed multiple times by federal agents. that's according to people familiar with the situation who declined to identify the worker. quote, in the first interview these people said the witness denied handling sensitive documents or the boxes that might contain such documents.

as they gathered evidence, agents decided to reinterview this witness and the witness' story changed dramatically, these people said. in the second interview the witness described moving boxes at trump's ask. quote, the witness is now considered a key part of the mar-a-lago investigation offering details about the former president's alleged actions and instructions to subordinates that could have been an attempt to thwart federal officials' demands for the return of classified government documents. i mean, it sounds like what is public facing is only the tip of the iceberg on the evidence martials by the criminality of the obstruction of justice side is pretty open and shut and compelling and overwhelming. >> yeah. i mean, and we go back to the fact that -- that the documents don't actually have to be classified documents that contain national security for this to have been a crime. i mean, again, it would be, but

on that point it's interesting that the employee's story change between the first interview and the second interview. i would also like to know how else the employee's story change. did it change around the sensitivity of the documents, for example, and why did they -- did the employee come forward and therefore was interviewed straight away and then for some reason changed their story? i mean, all of this is -- has -- i'm hearing it just as you're reading it to me, but it prompts a lot more questions but it's certainly really interesting context in terms of what the fbi has and, therefore, what the justice department has as well. >> there's a deja vu when stories like this break during our show and it usually came from a witness' attorney that we would learn what was now interest to federal prosecutors. i want to rode more of what the

"the washington post" has just broken. nbc news has not independently cropped this but it's being reported that a trump worker told the fbi about trump ordering this worker to move boxes on trump owes orders. that was how and they were they done. suggests that surveillance footage also bears out this witness' testimony. this is from "the washington post." quote, multiple witnesses have told the fbi they tried to talk trump into cooperating with the national archives and records of the administration and justice department as the agencies for months sought the return of sensitive or historical government records. the former president was adamant in private conversations that he would resist. among them was alex cannon, a trump lawyer who repeatedly argued that his client should hand the documents back but his advice fell on deaf ears. he told aides they screwed up, according to people who heard

his documents. they are my documents, trump said. this may be what land him in the deepest doo-doo of all. no, they are not. >> they are not his documents. the key line in this story is after receiving a subpoena. that is a guy who has a consciousness of his guilt. i'm not a lawyer, but i'm a reasonably educated guy. this is a consciousness of guilt flag on the play. he moved those documents because he knew he was in the wrong. did so after receiving a subpoena which i'm guessing is obstruction of justice no matter how you slice it. this guy is in deep trouble and as much as magas like to beat their chest, you can't catch him. he's catching himself and keeping digging the hole deeper and every single hole gets worse and worse for him. it never gets better. >> back to our conversation with michael cohen this, break-up in terms of strategy with alex

cannon a trump lawyer precedes the recruiting info into the bad news bears legal time who spent friday talking to federal investigators about this criminal vaegs. >> yeah. i just want to high lie the way he said they are mine-mile-per-hour, mine, mine. there's no quote that symbolizes this i go and his delusion and his really, really insane way of looking at things. >> the mag king. >> those are his documents, right. what else do you need to know? >> i think if -- are probably not much. again, i want to keep reading. if you're just joining us. "the washington post" has just moved a story with an incredible window into the evidence that has been marshalled in the criminal investigation of donald trump's handling of national

defense information and i want to keep reading from "the washington post" reporting from journalist devlin barrett. it says this, quote, the death tails shared with "the washington post" reveal two key parts of the criminal probe that until now have been shrouded in secrecy, an account from a witness who worked for and took directions from trump and the way that security footage from mar-a-lago has played an important role in buttressing witness accounts. they have the testimony and that was clear from what was unsealed very early in the public phase of doj's investigation. they also have it on camera. >> well, nicole, that's remarkable. maybe trump didn't know the cameras were operational and it probably did so it begs the question. there's a keystone cops el not this as serious as it is. this is a guy who didn't ever think he's going to be held accountable for everything and doesn't think he should be, and so, you know, i think there's a couple of key questions we're all eager to learn.

obviously there's been some suggestion about what these documents are, but what are these documents? >> and why did he want them? we know it's because he didn't want to sit in his office reading them. probably never read them in the first place, and so what was he using these for you? know? who was he going to share this with, and so, you know-ins going to get more and more sinister. my suspicion is as we go on, but what's driving his behavior here, of course, he's a narcissist and might have had extra motivation here, financial or otherwise to keep these documents, but there's just a lack of belief and accountability. doesn't think he should be held account ability by the voters, by the courts, by the press, and sadly many members of his political party right now are following that. and this is up. reasons i think the country is in such grave danger is there's a belief that they should not be held accountable by anyone any time. >> katty kay, the braisenness of trump's, you know, potentially

criminal conduct took place in plain sight. the day the mueller sort of testimony ends he call zelenskyy and laws offer him congressional approved military assistance. he gets through his first impeachment and mishandled covid and then hits the campaign trail, looks at the polls and starts laying the foundation for disrupting the peaceful transfer of power in the united states of america. every criminal act for which he's not held to account is built upon by a more brazen one and i want to read a little bit more of this "washington post" reporting because it gives us the context for what doj had when they sought approval from a judge. quote, together these pieces of evidence helped convince the fbi and the justice department to seek court-authorized search residence, office and storage at mar-a-lago which resulted in the

seizure of documents that were marked classified and were not turned over in response to the may subpoena. some documents with secrets so guarded that many security officials are kept in the dark about them. the august 8th search yielded 11,000 documents not marked classified. the brazenness of taking 103 classified documents so secret that they usually aren't released from 'key from an intelligence officer's wrist is part of the line of him being able and excused and sort of sprung from political and criminal accountability from bill barr. >> we we are talking never been held to account and then you hear remember that he was a president who was impeached twice and perhaps for most presidents, that would feel like being held to account.

the stain of impeachment once would be bad enough. twice would be pretty terrible as a legacy as a president, but for donald trump, it doesn't seem to have affected him. as i've been talking to supporters around the country, it doesn't seem to have affected them either. it's galvanized them. this mar-a-lago has done the same. i've spoken to supporters who say all they've got is the kim jong-un letter. that should be trump's. we've had reporting of the fact this was classified and there's been some reporting in the post that hasn't been corroborated yet that some may have been nuclear secrets, but trump supporters are still thinking this is all part of a deep state and he has held to account too much. it's really the degree to which things are seen in parallel universes by both sides at the moment is really astonishing

that trump supporters feel they've held him to account too much yet there is somebody throughout his business dealings. anyone who knew trump when he was in new york would say he found a loophole in the law and pushed it as wide as possible in order to do the best business deals for himself and was never held account for doing so. the patent that he has used in terms of the law and understanding of the law, he doesn't act ever as if he's been held to account and i keep coming back to those two impeachments and feel most people would feel it's a big, black mark. >> we have guests that we have to introduce accurately. having worked on trump's first impeachment. if your son or daughter or husband or wife is one of the stars, unnamed heroes at the cia, you know how real this is and the fact he's shoving bacon cheese burgers into his face at

mar-a-lago while 103 classified documents remain trapped in this legal paralysis is a true disgrace. >> you bring up the cia thing. i happened to interview john brennan for my podcast. we were talking about that. there are so many instance that we forget about that show the vulgarity. the latest thing we're talking about in the scheme of thing, him taking documents, obviously it can be as serious as nuclear. when you think about the parade and litany of things, yet still 40% of this country goes thumbs up to this guy. i keep going back what's wrong with us? the examination has got to start to be and with such an amazing job with his team to shine a light on these things is i'm not even concerned about donald trump anymore. i'm so much more concerned about

us, katty's point, maybe just love letters to kim jong-un. what happened to us? a big chunk of us. >> let me read more from this reporting. every word of it is rev la torre. this is on this topic of classified documents. the failure or possible refusal to return the documents is at the heart of the mar-a-lago investigation, which is one of several high profile, ongoing probes involving trump. the former president remains the most influential figure in the republican party and talks openly about running again for the white house in 2024. david plouffe, to donny's point, what do we do about that? >> listen, you worked in the white house, i worked in the white house. the documents you or i would see, any adversary in the world

would love to look at those documents. donald trump things our adversaries are his friends. we all had burn bags. can't even shred this stuff it's so sensitive. they're not going to be innocent. listen, '24 is going to be a seminal moment because whether it's donald trump who ends up getting nominated and ultimately you know, winning or one of his acolytes, we're not sure we're still going to be a democracy. what's frightening is two third of the country thinks whoever gets the most votes should win yet all these races around the country are 50/50. so there are people who don't think it's that serious. yet we see all over the country, governors, candidates, senate candidates.

secretary of states candidates, who are going to have responsibility for elections saying openly if i win this office, i will decide who wins. not you. so that is the question, which is and i know rick's team and others are trying to really do this, which is let's build a coalition. it's clearly not going to be 60% of the country. maybe it can be 52 or 53% that say we're going to save the democracy then we can go off into our corners and fight about tax rates and how we fund healthcare. but that is the challenge right now is not just a trump phenomenon. most serious candidates in most serious races this year around the country are republicans are denying the election. ultimately, it's not really important in my view that they're denying the 2020 election. it's what they're going to do in '22 and '24 that should scare us all and whether he runs or not, as you know, i don't think he's going to run, but most people who are going to ascend to that republican presidential stage are going to be people who are comfortable with the country

becoming an autocracy and many of their voters are as well. i think many republican voters would say on the question of should republicans always preside or would you be comfortable in a country where democrats have power and i think a lot of republican voters would say i'd be comfortable with autocracy and that should scare the daylights out of us. >> consider my daylights scared. we're here to talk about something else entirely. we'll have to put a pin in that conversation. thank you all for rolling with us on this breaking news in "the washington post." quick break for us. we'll be right back. quick break for us we'll be right back. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪

♪ what will you do? ♪ what will you change? ♪ will you make something better? ♪ will you create something entirely new? ♪ our dell technologies advisors provide you with the tools and expertise you need to do incredible things. because we believe there's an innovator in all of us.

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