that's not to say there's a wealth of information they have from the secret service. and going back to the cassidy hutchinson testimony you showed, that was some of the most explosive testimony they have had over the course of all the hearings. the fact that they would want to corroborate it from the secret service, if they can do that, you know they're going to do that. this is not a committee that likes to leave themselves open to potential loopholes or people doubting what they presented, i imagine that's part of what we're going to see today, again, i think we're going to hear a lot of the same themes they teased out in pain staking detail over the summer, but they're going to reinforce them with new information we haven't seen before from secret service and documentary footage that's going to show roger stone talking about saying the election was stolen, even before people had voted. >> secret service agents were with then president trump before and during the events of the capitol back at the white house as well as with vice president

pence as the rioters approached. thanks to all of you for getting up way too early with us on this thursday. big day, "morning joe" starts right now. tonight i come to you with a spring in my step, a song in my heart, emotionally and spiritually refreshed because you know how as humans we have to accept the fact that sometimes bad things happen to good people. well, by the grace of god, sometimes bad things happen to alex jones, and that's a good thing. >> oh, yes, conspiracy theorist alex jones ordered to pay nearly a billion dollars to sandy hook families for lying about the 2012 massacre being a hoax. we will speak with one of the plaintiffs in the case, a sandy hook mother. >> and you know, mika, we were watching this live, got breaking

news. and as the verdicts were coming in, it was so painful. >> it was so painful. >> looking at the parents. you know, they're talking about, you know, basically a billion dollars in civic awards, and you just couldn't, you still looked at the parents -- >> and you knew it was just -- >> they were glad justice was being done, but they would much rather never to have gone through this hell they have lived. >> it's just horrible. we got george conway here. we tried to get somebody else, and they said we're not good in law. and they said, who is, george conway. has he ever been on tv before. we're glad to have you here. going to ask you, big question really quickly, and then we'll get to everything else. the question people are already asking is this guy going to have to pay? is he going to feel this? is he going to just declare bankruptcy and walk or is this going to follow him the rest of

his life. >> it will follow him the rest of his life. he can't possibly pay off the judgment. i don't know that a bankruptcy court is going to discharge it. there are enough people out there, enough plaintiffs with judgments that they will be able to chase him around. oj didn't own anything. paid greens fees at a golf course, and nothing was in his name. it's going to be like that for him, and very difficult for the man to function, and he deserves every minute of torture that that entails. >> does this send a message? >> i think it does. >> do you think we're starting to send a message to these people who lie with impunity. dominion voting machine going after mr. pillow, going after giuliani. do you think these at some point people are going to be held to account enough that they'll think twice before spreading lies. >> does this have impact? >> about parents whose children are gunned down. about people who decide to

volunteer in georgia because they love america. >> i think if we lived in a nation where we didn't have sociopaths and psycho paths, the problem is a guy like alex jones, he's not right in the head. he has no moral compunction about saying anything about anyone. our friend in mar-a-lago, the same thing. they'll say anything about anyone at any time. >> right. >> and so, you know, how do you deter that is the issue. >> i wonder, though, willie, when they have to actually start paying out billion dollar judgments, when they're going to be chased for the rest of their lives, donald trump, it's catching up to donald trump, all the things we thought he was going to get away with. all the ways we thought he was above the law. he's not. he's paying for it right now. the truth's being told. shouted from the mountain tops. i just wonder, are we finally getting to a point where there are consequences to abhorrent actions, abhorrent words. >> you certainly hope so, but i think george is right, there are always going to be people on the fringes, there's always going to be a market for something like

this. the other they think to say about this judgment yesterday is it's not just the money, it's the pain and we've talked about this as we've talked about this case. the pain that alex jones and info wars have visited on these families that have unimaginable pain. children slaughtered inside a first grade classroom, they received death threats, many of them have had to move several times. they have been harassed. their kids died in a school classroom, and after that, as they have been grieving, they have been chased around the country, harassed. people showing up at their houses, shots fired outside their homes. it's been terrible for these families. he has made it much much worse. hopefully it sends the message that you can't do stuff like this and get away with it. >> we'll look at what impact this could have on other cases that we're watching when it comes to disinformation. also ahead, new details in the trump documents case. a trump insider telling the fbi the former president ordered

staff to move boxes of documents at mar-a-lago before agents searched the property. we'll have more on the new account -- >> it's more of a laugh like that's really dumb, and he's in trouble. >> that's all he has to say about that. >> that's it. thank you! we'll have more on the new account, details what happened at trump's beach club with those documents before the fbi stepped in. and the final january 6th committee hearing before the midterms is here today. we are going tell you what to expect in those hearings. >> and we'll get it right, you know, why, because jackie is here. >> she's got everything. all things related to january 6th. good morning, and welcome to "morning joe." it is thursday. it's only thursday, guys. october 13th. and as you saw, we have attorney and contributing columnist for "the washington post," george conway, with us. also with us, congressional investigations reporter for "the washington post," jackie

alemany, an msnbc contributor. >> do you have the finale, the january 6th thing. >> and the host of "way too early" white house bureau chief, jonathan lemire. >> we'll get to that. she's not biting right now. let's go to nbc news senior reporter, ben collins. yesterday, the verdict was coming in, i thought about you because you follow all of this. i have to say, i've known people that have worked in tabloid, and i'm totally serious here, worked in tabloids in new york city and see the absolute worst of what happens in new york and it wears them down after a while. i know you're worn down by seeing all the lies you have to follow all across the internet, just the absolute sewers that your mind has to crawl through. i'm dead serious. i know it's grim. >> he's going to start crying. >> you're a reporter, i won't ask how yesterday felt for you,

i will just say, though, that perhaps a billion dollar verdict, that it's going to make alex jones run for the rest of his life, do you think perhaps it might cool things a bit on your beat, at least for people who have something to lose financially. >> yeah, look, joe, i have been covering this stuff for a very long time now, as you just said and i never saw the light of day, i never saw the light at the end of the tunnel here. there was a little bit of light at the end of the tunnel here. these with families who had their kids' graves desecrated by people who chased them around the country. that's what was going on here. this was a pure harassment issue that was framed politically over the last few years as a speech issue because they are wrapped up in a bunch of other stuff. yesterday you saw a court that worked. it was shocking in my line of work, to see someone of alex jones' stature, finally start to

feel the heat a little bit. i was watching his show as the verdict came in, i was listening to him talk, and he was in disbelief, like literally disbelief, i don't think he thinks he's going to have to pay this money, even though he probably is going to have to pay this money. his world of lies that he built cannot withstand this, and he does not seem to understand that. he was talking yesterday about how -- he was saying, you know these people are never going to see this money, right. he was saying that on air as the verdict was being read out. they are. they are almost certainly going to see at least a lot of this money. he's going to have assets seized. they're going to look into those offshore bank accounts and companies that he created. this is finally, there's going to be a little bit of justice for all the people that he hurt over the last few years. >> one of the fathers of one of the victims, emily parker, one of the little girls who died, her dad yesterday said i had people from alex jones' group

come to my daughter's funeral and harass us, the funeral of a 6-year-old girl. i have been waiting a long time for this day. what does it mean for the future of info wars. alex jones has tried to claim bankrupty, i don't have the money, you can't have the money. turns out that wasn't true. is info wars a viable entity after this? >> it might be for now. i will say, what's an underrated thing about info wars is that they way well, and they give you health insurance, which sounds like a stupid thing. people don't go into that line of work to get health insurance. once you're in it, it's pretty good. they did this before they were raking in cash. alex jones gave his employees a life they could live, and built a larger broadcasting system with the fear he sold. at the beginning what he would do is say there's stuff in your water, i will de-florinate your

water, and you're going to take the pills for the end of the world. all of that money is going to go to families now. he can't pay to keep his broadcasting system up and up. he built an entire parallel you tube called band video, an internet around the fact that he had been banned from civilian social media. i have no idea how he's going to pay to keep those servers running. i just don't know, so there may be a way around this, but it doesn't sound like the legal way, and i think he's eventually going to have to face some consequences here. i think it's happening now. >> we heard from the usual suspects after the verdict came down yesterday, this judgment saying they're trying to chill speech. they're trying to silence us, alex jones has already become a martyr in many quarters because of this. yeah, they are trying to chill you from harassing families at their funerals of their 6-year-old daughters.

>> who got slaughtered by an ar-15 in first grade, the last day before christmas vacation. yeah. they are trying to hold people accountable for some of the most horrific behavior that we've ever seen. and the fact their graves, these young children's graves were defaced, the fact that these parents were chased around the country because of alex jones' lies. >> there's a technical aspect about this. you can sell a judgment. right. let's say i were god forbid a parent and i got -- i don't know what the amount was, $200 million or something, i don't have to chase -- i don't have to hire a lawyer to chase that person. i can sell it to jackie who can collect these things and she can hire a law firm and she can go into the business of collecting these. >> if you're selling it to jackie, she probably does this all the time, and knows how to

stop alex jones. >> right. there are these vulture funds in new york city that go after foreign country that is fail to pay off their debt, a guy like singer, you ever hear of that guy, and they were basically -- they hire these big law firms like a gibson, dunn and crutcher and they know how to go out and get ships. they know how to collect judgments, and look for assets, they have investigators, so somebody could go into business doing, you know, basically paying these families a lot of money, not that it does them any good. >> they want the accountability. >> but they will know, people out there incentivized to go out and chase this guy to the ends of the earth. >> there isn't any way that he could declare bankruptcy to freeze this process. everybody wants to know, will he have to pay, will he be shut down? >> i don't know that you can just shut him down, but the thing about is that you can --

the bankruptcy will not discharge this entire debt. there will have to be a system by which he has to pay it off, and the money he gets in the future goes to this, and if he hides assets, that's criminal actually. so he could, you know, if he tries to do, you know, funny business to hide money from the court, that's fraud. >> criminal fraud. >> so george, let me ask you, you've studied this pretty closely through the years. just the post truth culture. that existed before donald trump, and was put to a different level, and looking at this verdict, i'm just curious, what is your view as somebody who, again, followed this day in and day out. this culture of lies, this russian fire hose of falsehoods that people on the trump right spread every day. talk about the chilling effect.

are you hopeful that we may be turning a corner, which yesterday is significant in that battle for the truth. >> i think it's significant but i don't think it's ever going to undo it all, and i think for the reasons i said earlier, i mean, there are these people -- these people are not rational. they are not moral people. they're people who are basically -- it's just metastasized thanked to the internet and various methods of communication and broadcasting and everything, you can spread vicious, vicious lies and profit for a while and get away with it, and it takes a while. it takes a while for it all to catch up. >> are you counting that dominion will get a judgment too? >> i am actually. first of all, it's very clear, the evidence is very strong. they're highly motivated. they have very good lawyers and the damages are immense. >> they're massive. >> they're immense. you're a county election commissioner, i mean, why would you go out and hire and buy

dominion machines when you're just going to get you know what for it. >> and by the way, i have a very good friend who runs elections in a florida county, and every time he goes out publicly, people are shouting at him about dominion voting machines. well, we don't actually have -- and they scream liar. he was just at a meeting, and they started screaming liar. actually, you can come down and check. >> has he ever been to venezuela. >> i'm saying, though, that's happening in 67 counties around the state of florida. that's happening in counties all across -- they have done so much grave damage, and you look at the people who are -- rudy, you look at all of these people, again, there is going to be consequences. >> the laws of gravity. >> the lies. >> the laws of gravity almost are turning there. >> nbc's ben collins, thank you very much. another top story this morning, today's hearing from

the house committee investigating the january 6th attack on the capitol. and it will focus on trump's state of mind. >> good luck with that. >> an aide tells nbc news it will reveal new information the committee has gathered and will highlight events that took place before and after january 6th. the hearing will be roughly 2 1/2 thundershowers long with a ten-minute recess halfway through. every member of the committee will present different pieces of evidence. it will not include any live witnesses but will feature new testimony from witnesses that have appeared during past hearings, as well as from some who have not been seen before. this hearing will likely be the committee's last before the midterm elections, and that's where i begin with you, jackie. so they're wrapping this up. what more can you tell us in terms of what we can expect this afternoon and then what happens from there? >> yeah, and just for the sake of transitions to show how dark and interconnected this world of

extremism is, we'll probably be seeing texts from alex jones during this hearing today after his lawyer accidentally sent them to the lawyer of the sandy hook parents who then provided it to the january 6th committee who went through all of them and found that he was communicating with people like roger stone and other extremists but today, i think is going to be a little bit different from the previous hearings that we've seen in that it's going to take a step back, be a 30,000 foot view of the entire effort to overturn the results of the election, starting from before election day and ending after january 6th, of what the electoral outcome was going to be divided into different sections, one section that my colleague and i reported on yesterday is going to be focused on secret service

and the way the secret service was implicated in the cover up. and corroborated with information the committee has put out in previous hearings. there's probably going to be new testimony from associates of the former president, his cabinet secretaries who interviewed with the committee over the summer to talk about why they were potentially mulling the 25th amendment, and having questions about trump's state of mind and mental fitness after the attack, and underscoring the ongoing threat to democracy and our elections. as you were saying, joe, the election worker in florida who is subject to a constant barrage of attacks. this continues to today. it's what i like to call the slow rolling insurrection that has festered and been spawned by trump's consistent, fraudulent claims of election fraud. >> jackie, this does feel

something like a closing argument for this committee, which has been incredibly effective at telling the story. we noted, you know, when they last left us in july that there wasn't the usual grand standing we have seen from usually a congressional hearing full of senators and members of congress, sort of puffing themselves up and telling hong -- long stories. the question is what happens from here. they grab the public's attention. we understand the story. the public understands the story of what happened before, during and after january 6th. they'll make a report, and then likely some referrals, and then what does the justice department do with that is the question? >> these are good questions, and these lawmakers don't have time to do the grand standing because of the amount of information they have collected just between august and now alone, they received 1.5 million documents from the department of homeland security, regarding documents from the secret service, a trove

of e-mails, microsoft team chats, new radio frequency, recordings of radio frequency channels, that were taking place. the committee is not only using this hearing to make the closing argument, but to squeeze in all of the evidence that they have not yet had a place to show yet, but you are right in that this is the last time that they have this platform before midterms and are really trying to lay out to voters ways that they feel like they have been misled and swindled. they're probably going to also show the ways in which the republican party really tried to defraud the american people by continuing to fund raise off of false claims of election fraud, and allow people to make the most educated decision possible when they go to the polls in november, but more importantly

in 2024, and potentially present some alternatives and some new legislative remedies to prevent this from happening again. >> and, george, that leads to the question about donald trump. jackie was talking about people who fraudulently use the big lie to raise money from americans, sort of the jim and tammy fay baker routine. donald trump is the guy in charge of this political ptl club. i'm curious, does he face the consequences for lying, saying give me money. what did he raise, like a quarter billion dollars, and didn't use it for any of these efforts that he said he was going to use it for. >> he should. there's a hesitancy to pursue political fundraising because of the potential first amendment concerns, but here, it's outright lying. it's no different than the steve bannon case where they're just basically saying, we're going to build a wall, and of course

they're just lining their pockets. trump is using it to pay for legal fees and keep people happy and silent, i guess, and so it's just -- i think the wreckening -- reckoning is going to be broader than the civil piece of it, from the fundraising the grift up. he really -- there was a broad-based conspiracy to stop the operation of the federal government in so far as it was undergoing a peaceful transfer of power, more than money, more than anything else is the most valuable thing we have in our democracy. that's where he really, if there's justice in this world, that's what he should be held to account. the irony is that, you know, simpler things often, you know, take the day and the documents case is just outright theft and lies in a way that orders of magnitude simpler than anything else he's done. there's nothing to paper up and

make complicated like his businesses and there's nothing, you know, you don't have to deal with 1 1/2 million e-mails and stuff like that. it's really really simple. >> here are the documents. he's going through them himself. he's telling people to moouch -- move the documents around. telling people to lie. he's a one man show here. >> where does that go. >> that to me is the shortest distance between donald trump and on orange jump suit is that case. it's so simple. it's like the u.s. attorney trying to bring a big mob case against the five families and trying to connect it up to the boss and all of a sudden they get the call from the nypd saying, hey, the big boss is loading jewelry on a truck at kennedy airport, and you know, that's what happened here. he's caught red handed. >> on the sliding scale, i'm curious of severity of the espionage act, what is required for the president to have done in order to go to prison?

>> basically what he's done, refusing to give the documents back upon request is sufficient under the espionage act. and he's done that, and then you have the aggravating facts about how the volume of documents and the lying and how long it's dragged on. i don't know how they don't bring the case. >> wow. wow. >> jonathan lemire, do you have a question? >> i always have a question. >> is there a question there, i mean, yesterday, i don't know if you really asked a question. >> you know, joe, we were talking yesterday with a delightful actress, a scary and pertinent tale. talk to jackie about back to the january 6th hearing. >> do you know, you want to talk to george or jackie. >> i would like to talk to jackie, i'll have moments to talk to george when i get

downstairs in a minute. we're going to talk about the mar-a-lago case later, but on january 6th, tell us a little bit about the role of liz cheney today. since we saw this committee gather last in the summer, she stood before voters in the primary in wyoming, and defeated, roundly defeated because they chose trump and his brand of the republican party over her. she is someone who put patriotism above party. what should we expect from her today. >> i wish i could share everything that's going on in my head when you ask that question, we are currently reporting a story on liz cheney's role but we haven't yet confirmed all the facts yet, so i'm not going to go ahead and spoil it, but i do think we will see liz cheney play a similar role which she has played all along, being laser focused on the former president, making the case, putting the road map for the department of justice to pursue

prosecution against the former president. this strategy has at times ruffled feathers of the lawmakers on the committee who wanted this to be a high minded academic and comprehensive look at everything that took place around the efforts to overturn the election. there's a feeling among investigators that not every road leads to trump when you look at some of the problems that have been festering that caused this kind of act of domestic political violence but cheney has firmly believed that she and the committee cannot take their eyes off of trump and if you do, it gives voters, the republican party the opportunity to turn away from him, give him an out or a pass, and she is, you know, despite having lost an election and being on her way out of power, plans to very much stay in the public eye, and potentially use this who are

knows, for a 2024 presidential spring board. >> jackie alemany, thank you, i have a feeling we're going to see you tomorrow. still ahead on "morning joe," we'll be joined by senator chris murphy of connecticut on the heels of the alex jones verdict. he says the sandy hook families deserve every dollar coming to them from the right wing conspiracy theorist. plus, a look at the growing drama over the lack of a debate between two candidates running for governor of arizona. we'll talk about that. also healed, democrats in congress are pushing to take action against saudi arabia after opec plus announced it would be reducing oil production. we'll go over the options on the table. and a look at this morning's front page headlines, including new polling in one closely watched senate race. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. race. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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there are over 7 billion people in the world, but how many of us have the same father, introducing, 34 and me. our team will analyze the results and reveal if herschel walker is your dad. >> he is. yeah, he is. >> what? >> what the. [ bleep ] >> 34 and me. >> so what do i do now? >> be quiet. >> i'm rafael warnock, and i approve this message. >> that is so good. >> willie, it really changes. >> what do i do now be quiet. >> go ahead and get the test. 34 and me, that was not a

warnock ad, we should point out. that was jimmy kimmel making jokes last night. herschel walker keeps feeding this beast when he goes out and tells unsolicited stories about pregnant bulls, and he's keeping the story alive, isn't he. >> he loves it. >> he really is. and again, we were talking about herschel walker, and him talking about telling a story about a bull that got three cows pregnant, but that just wasn't enough. he wanted to go over the fence and get three more pregnant. >> he gave the thumbs up to the fact that three were pregnant. he goes, you know something is going on there. thank you, we do actually know that something is going on there, and it's complicating things in georgia. >> what do you make of this, george? >> i'm speechless.

i've gotten to the point where i'm almost ready to take my phone, and what do you block out herschel so i don't get any messages about him. it's the same kind of lunacy. it's like there's this wave of illness that's flooded the country, from an alex jones, donald trump to herschel walker and all of these people -- >> trump has taught people to tap into racism, cruelty, lying, and to make it work for them. >> yeah. and he's given -- he's granted a permission structure. i'm not saying that some of these senators, our favorite senators like hawley or cruz would have been good people in another universe, but they wouldn't have been quite as bad if they didn't learn from the master. they would have some shame. >> it's the era of nothing matters, there are no consequences, especially both of the parties, particularly republicans, nothing matters, no

rules, owning the libs and trying to score cheap poins. >> not just no consequences the man was elected president of the united states by being a complete lunatic. >> let's again put some perspective here, because mika and i have this conversation all the time. no consequences, really, donald trump wins in 2016, on the one day that he could win, even according to donald trump. in 2017, democrats win big, republicans get routed. in 2018, trump republicans get routed. in 2019, trump republicans get routed. you have a louisiana and kentucky going democratic. in 2020, you have donald trump ending up being the first president since herbert hoover to lose the house, the senate and the white house in his first term. >> impeached twice and by the end of the year, he could be

indicted twice. >> there are consequences, willie, politically. you look economically, look at alex jones, there are consequences economically. seeming to return. and legally, my gosh, it seems all of the things donald trump thought he was going to get away with through the years are all catching up to him in courthouses in georgia, and new york, and across the country. >> yeah, it certainly has added up, and if donald trump decides to run for president again, he might learn just how much it's added up, which is to say the people who took a flier on him in 2016 and maybe tried him 2020 don't want any part of him anymore. to george's point, people like herschel walker are where they are because of donald trump, because he put his hand on him and said i like the way this guy played football for me for the new jersey generals 40 years ago. let's make him a united states

senator, and he's famous and you love him for the touchdowns he scored down in athens, so this is donald trump's guy, and the reason he's there is because no one, including those men behind him, tom cotton and rick scott want to say the obvious which is that he's a terrible candidate who threatened his wife, who has children he doesn't take credit for, that he won't take responsibility for. that is a candidate who would have been run out of the race long ago, if not for donald trump standing in the way. they still will not across the man who runs that party, donald trump. >> right. and here's the short-term challenge. you see in the background, you see rick scott who runs the republican senate campaigns. you see tom cotton, 2022, should be a huge year for republicans. democrats were feeling good about it.

you go to the grocery store and look at the prices of groceries, they're just exploding. gas prices are going to be exploding. we sit here, and we're talking about the constitutional republic, madisonian democracy being challenged. the january 6th hearings, the overwhelming majority of voters are concerned about the fact that they go to the grocery store and the prices are higher than the day before. >> yeah. >> that's what's driving them. so maybe herschel walker wins. maybe some of these republicans win for reasons that have nothing to do with the insanity, that have nothing to do with the lies, and this sort of behavior gets rewarded. >> right. and i mean, you know, but the point you make, he should have won more. this should have been a great year, even better than you could ever imagine for republicans two years ago because of all of these factors, and in normal off

year, that's what would happen. normal off year, we have inflation for the first time, interest rates that are the highest in 16 years. it's gas prices, i mean, you just would normally expect just a complete blow out, and that's not we're likely to see that. it's time for a look at the morning papers. in indiana, the top story in the "indianapolis tribune" is looking at the state's abortion ban. indiana supreme court has issued a new order preventing enforcement of the republican-backed abortion ban while the court considers whether it violates the state's constitution. indiana was the first state to enact tighter abortion restrictions after the u.s. supreme court overturned roe v. wade. willie. >> speaking of some of those senate races in wisconsin, "the milwaukee journal sentinel" according to a new marquette university poll, ron johnson has

surged to a six point lead over his democratic challenger, mandela barnes. he had been up one point in the previous poll last month, running for a third term, backed by 32% of likely voters, the two will debate tonight at marquette university. to maine now where "the portland press herald" reports 350 lobstermen and families took part in a rally urging the state's attorney general to sue federal regulators over proposed rules they argue could kill the lobstering industry. the regulations meant to protect the endangered north atlantic whale would include restrictions on where lobster men can place their traps. we'll be following that. in the state of florida, the front page of "the florida times union" looking at nasa's

artemis, taking place on november 12th. two previous attempts to launch the rocket in late august and early september were called off because of technical issues. >> all right. >> let's talk really quickly before we go to break, just about a follow up on yesterday. an incredible report out of pennsylvania -- >> nbc's dasha burns. >> which pissed off democrats. it's okay to talk about herschel walker all day but don't talk about a guy that has to read closed captioning in an interview, because how dare you do that, voters don't care about that. you know, we really don't know if voters care about that or not, so they decide, and unfortunately some people thatch quite a few followers decide they're going to actually attack the reporter for doing the reporter's job. are they getting tips from donald trump followers? like why do you attack somebody for being a reporter, and by the

way, this stroke is a significant health event, so for people to like to attack a reporter and go, oh, this doesn't matter. how dare they ask these questions. it matters and they look like fools. they look like idiots and hacks when they suggest that voters may not be interested in whether a guy is going to be able to function as a united states senator. you don't go, oh, but it's us, no, a reporter following fetterman asks fetterman the question, so she did a great job. i must say also, fetterman did a great job responding. i love the tweet when he went to the philly live board, and he said, i showed up for the philly live board editorial board meeting, and my opponent didn't. you can watch the whole thing. dr. oz skipped it. i had a stroke. and i showed up. what's your excuse, dr. oz.

see, this is how you turn a disadvantage into an advantage. >> yes. >> as two short people said on an ad long long ago, but he actually for the first time after the dasha burns interview got on social media again, and started turning it into his favor, and i must say, the expectations game. always critical important these things, expectations game has just been shifted now. thanks in parts to dasha burns. she didn't need to do it. got that out there, closed captioning screen, dr. oz goes there and, you know, he can use that as a line. i had a stroke, he's making fun of me for having a health care crisis that makes me relate to

you more. >> yeah. first of all on dasha is to present information. we're not on anyone's team, anyone's side. there's plenty of that, a lot of what aboutisms, she did a terrific job. in terms of fetterman's response, he suffered a stroke, doctors say he's recovering nicely, expected to make a full recovery but right now has auditory issues, therefore it's easier to talk to someone using the closed captioning. they have been very transparent up front and deserve credit for it, and now he does, you're right, he's able to use this and his campaign has been great throughout, rolling dr. oz, hitting oz for living in new jersey, voting in turkey, going to dallas cowboys games, you're trying to represent a state that represents the philadelphia eagles, that's not a good option going to dallas cowboys games and picking off issues on oz and the crudites, and he used this,

pivoting forward, setting up the debate, i have this health issue, many future constituents have had health issues the same. not only is he as a human being not being compassionate, he's a doctor and he's not being aware of my medical challenges. the fetterman team took a difficult moment and made it a good one. >> it's unbecoming of a doctor mocking somebody because they had a stroke. >> we'll put doctor in quotes for dr. oz. >> okay exactly. >> george, i thought fetterman, first of all, i think you would agree with me, it's a legitimate -- >> did a great job with the reporting but secondly, it seems coming out of the interview, fetterman did a very good job juxtaposing himself with dr. oz. >> the jiu-jitsu he's pulling off, i don't know, who has neurological capacity to do that consistently, i think it's pretty good. >> it's great.

>> george conway, it's great to have you on. thank you very much. and coming up, we're going to go live to moscow where nbc's keir simmons just spoke to a top russian official about vladimir putin's state of mind. plus. >> i wonder how that went. >> is keir reporting from the streets or prison. >> plus, we'll get expert analysis on the state of the war in ukraine from a former cia officer. we're back in just a moment. a fa officer. we're back in just a moment. shingles. some describe it as an intense burning sensation or an unbearable itch. this painful, blistering rash can disrupt your life for weeks. it could make your workday feel impossible.

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this morning, russia launched an assault on the ukrainian capitol city of kyiv for the fourth consecutive day.

struck by drones early this morning. one official said critical infrastructure facilities were hit, not offering details on which ones. it's not clear if there were any casualties but russia continues its assault deep inside ukraine. meanwhile nbc news senior international correspondent keir simmons spoke with alexander novak and asked him about president putin's state of mind. >> reporter: you work closely with president putin, how would you describe his frame of mind. >> >> translator: the president thinks about the interest of our country and the people that live in our country. >> keir joins us from moscow. what more did you glean from that interview about the russian state of mind, putin's state of mind, and where this war is heading? >> reporter: we're actually getting news today that turkey

is, again, president erdogan is meeting with president putin and trying to see if he can be at the center of peace negotiations in terms of the russians state of mind, i don't think that's likely to go very far because fundamentally, the russians would not be prepared to give up territory that they have taken in the conflict and ukraine and allies in the u.s. and west are not prepared to allow russia to hold on to territory. that's the fundamental, the conflict will likely continue. now, talking to alexander novak, he is at the center of all of the geopolitics because he is the man issue the russian who has sat down with saudis and opec leaders to negotiate that oil price, that cut to oil production of 2 million barrels a day that is so frustrated folks in the u.s. because it means potentially higher prices at the pump. he, as you would expect, insisted to me, it's an economic

decision by saudi arabia and russia and the other countries and i also wanted to ask him about these reports that russia is selling oil to india and china at a discount. a hefty discount by one account, $25 per barrel cheaper and he had that interesting answer, take a listen. >> the imf says that russian oil is being rerouted to india and china, as a discount. india and china helping support the russian economy. >> translator: india and china in my opinion are primarily interested in meeting the needs of their own economies in energy resources. if russian oil is cheaper on the market today, then it will find a customer who is interested in it. >> reporter: and willie, notable that yesterday that u.n. voted

to give russia's offensive in ukraine that both india and china abstained in that vote, saudi arabia joined the 145 countries that voted in favor of that resolution. saudi arabia overnight insisting, coming out, it was notable to try and do this to say that, no, no, no, that cut this oil production has nothing to do with us siding with russia. >> and we're getting news as well that putin told erdogan he may make turkey a gas hub. when you spoke to the deputy prime minister, how did he defend or how did he explain the attacks on civilian targets deep inside ukraine? we saw that smoldering playground, the pedestrian bridge blown up. we've seen theaters and hospitals attacked. how did they defend the way they've prosecuted this war. >> the deputy prime minister is a tough character.

he'll answer the questions that he wants to answer. you heard him there. he barely answered really the question about president putin's mindset and of course crucially to understand, willie, about this country, is that there is only really one person in the political sphere that really matters, and that is president putin himself. it's interesting when he spoke at the forum yesterday, there was an awful lot of security when he was speaking, as soon as president putin left the security drops by the other members of the government there. so i think the truth is, when you talk to anyone other than president putin here, you are talking to -- you aren't talking to the boss. certainly you're not talking to the person who made the decision with ukraine, alex, of course, all of them are a party to the decision. >> nbc's keir simmons reporting for us from moscow this morning, keir, thank you so much as always, we'll continue the conversation in a moment with ed

luce. also ahead, connecticut senator chris murphy joins us at the top of the hour in a few minutes, following the massive judgment against conspiracy theorist alex jones in a settlement giving money to the parents of the sandy hook school shooting victims. and committee member stephanie murphy is our guest ahead of today's hearing. "morning joe" is coming right back. earing "morning joe" is coming right back davante adams! hey man, we need to talk about that lucky jersey. i haven't washed it in two years. it's dirty. -lucky. -dirty. -dirty. -lucky. ha! maybe lucky? no. dirty. you need to deep clean that. it's got to be tide hygienic clean.

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it is the top of the hour, and yes, we're showing yankee stadium. here we go. going to fall off the rails right now. >> it's not going to fall off the rails. they turn on "morning joe," let's hear more about baseball. >> no, they don't. >> willie, is that not what they say. i hear america saying it all the time, i feel america saying it all the time. especially tonight. the new york yankees in cleveland.

>> guardians. >> that just rolls right off the tongue, how are you feeling tonight? >> i feel like it's going to rain, first of all. we might not get this one in, but i feel good based on what we did the last two nights ago gerrick cole and nestor cortez. last night, the padres beating the dodgers. the dodgers have been steam rolling through the league. the atlanta braves behind kyle wright, their 20-game winner from vanderbilt university who pitched a shutout. braves now, back where they want to be as well. >> willie, you would say, jonathan, that dodgers obviously are going to win this series. that's a great thing about baseball. doesn't matter, ask the seattle mariners back in 2001, cleveland

indians, 1954. mika will love this. the chicago cubs in 1906. doesn't matter how many games you win in the regular season, everything gets reset in the playoffs, anything can happen. >> even now, a shorter series, five games, best of three. they could certainly lose those two. and so much comes down to dominant starting pitching and the yesterday the padres got a good outing from yu darvish, and musgrove. they have him to go this series. you might give the padres a slight starting pitching edge. the dodgers are better at every other facet of the game. the dodgers have owned the padres this year, winning 14 or 15 out of 19. that all resets in october. two of the three games left are in san diego. >> we bring you on not to tell about your case in the cia, and

we bring you on to talk baseball. the padres looked dominant against a great mets team, a mets team that i now have to unfortunately tell mika's daughter, stick with them. >> she's done. >> padres, top to bottom, a frightening lineup. >> think about juan soto and josh bell, two players who they acquired via trade who have jumped performed in the regular season could play a huge role in the playoffs. as a red sox fan, i'm relaxed right now, joe, when the red sox lose, you know, certainly you're upset. when the red sox win, we're nervous. i'm watching the games, i'm enjoying it. >> no stress, no anxiety. >> as much as i root for the red sox, i root against the yankees. >> you are a total red sox fan.

my mother, when i was in congress and somebody would write a good article about me, joey, they're just writing this to take you down. can i not just enjoy this one positive article, mom. no, joey. you as a red sox fan, when you win, i'm wrecked. when we lose, i'm wrecked. when we win i'm wrecked too. >> it's even worse. >> you know disaster lurks everywhere. >> we have a lot to get to this hour in terms of news. the final january 6th hearing before the midterm election is today. we are told the committee will present new testimony and new evidence. we will tell you what else to expect when we speak with a member of that committee coming up on "morning joe." plus, a trump insider flips and tells investigators the former president personally directed staff to move documents being sought by the government. we'll have the new reporting and

legal analysis connected to the seizure of classified material from mar-a-lago. that seems to keep getting worse for donald trump, and everywhere he turns, he hits a wall or ends up hurting himself again legally. but we'll see. first, more on the new backlash against russia, the united nations general assembly voted overwhelmingly yesterday to condemn russia for its illegal annexation of ukrainian territory. 143 nations voted in favor of condemning russia with 35 countries abstaining and five countries voting against it, including north korea and russia itself. notably both saudi arabia and the united arab emirates both voted in favor of the resolution. >> willie, that's interesting until the past, those countries who voted on many of these resolutions, the saudis, more so, than the uae. but yesterday, fascinating that

saudi arabia who's been trying to play both sides yesterday voted in favor of the condemnation. >> yeah, and that's what keir was just telling us from moscow. saudi arabia perhaps wanting to make a statement that, yes, we cut oil production, but we were not doing that to benefit russia, even though of course it does. how is this for isolation. this is the club that russia finds itself in on the world stage, belarus, north korea, syria, and nicaragua. that's the club right now that stands with russia. >> workers of the world unite. that is one genuinely crappy alliance. good luck with that. >> u.s. ambassador to the united nations, linda thomas-greenfield warned the other nations in the room ahead of the vote that someday they could be next. >> colleagues, the facts are clear, a u.n. member state, one with a permanent seat on the security council has attempted

to annex territory from its neighbor by force. this u.n. member state has not only put its neighbor in its cross hairs, but also put a bull's eye in this institution's core principle, one country cannot take the territory of another by force. today it's russia invading ukraine, but tomorrow it could be another nation whose territory is violated. it could be you. you could be next! so with us, we have former cia officer, mark pollymoropolis, and editor at "the new york times" ed luce. >> he's going to get us up to date on cricket matches. >> jonathan lemire is with us along with joe, willie and me. i want to ask you, ed, let's talk about the saudis because there are international

organizations, economists across the globe who are saying the saudi's vote, not the vote yesterday, but the saudis vote to cut oil production is exactly what one middle east politician told me after it happened. stupid, shortsighted, made absolutely no sense, and what they have effectively done is they have made a worldwide recession much more possible. so this is such a self-defeating volt. first of all, mbs gets out of the corner, gets the fist bump, decides to go right back into the corner. maybe he doesn't care. maybe he loves russia. maybe he wants to be an ally with declining in international power. one thing is for sure, mbs is hurting the saudis because it's going to bring on an international session most likely, which drives down demand even more, which makes their job

even more difficult. >> i don't think we should overestimate the sophistication of mbs. this guy is jared kushner's besty. >> what's going on. >> too clever that you could play both sides of the field. humiliating the u.s. president like that, i know mark has views on the wisdom of whether biden should have gone to saudi arabia, and i suspect you think it was unwise. more unwise to humiliate the u.s. president like that. this move is a rise in oil prices into declining wins with global economy. so they want to bring the price of a barrel of oil back up to $100. it's gone from up 82. they want to push it over 100 to maximize revenues, what they're going to do is decrease demand, and i doubt they'll get it back up there.

if they do, it won't stay long. the global economic engine is slowing, and the other dimension of this, which is it's going to accelerate, nobody is going to trust opec plus. it's going to accelerate the shift to other energy sources. >> right. >> renewable energy. so mbs, kind of a bad. >> finally after decades, at or past peek oil. >> and willie, if you look at how shortsighted these oil rich countries are, all they're doing is making themselves less relevant in the long run, you know, there has always been a push and pull in the united states about how much we drill, how aggressively we drill. they have made our argument for us. we can't be dependent on

venezuela. we can't be dependent on saudi arabia. we can't be dependent on russia. we do it cleaner than there. we have higher environmental standards here than they are there, whether you like more drilling for fossil fuels or not. that's just the reality of it. if we're not going to get it from the united states of america, we're going to get it from venezuela or saudi arabia, and we're going to have to sit around and wait to see how they react. and you look at vladimir putin, you're going to stop sending natural gas, energy to europe, what's that going to do, that's going to make europe look to us and look to other sources and become energy independent from russia. this is so shortsighted. it's actually a tipping point in this debate on energy independence and on alternative energy sources and these bad actors actually, ironically enough, are the very people who may be moving us into a new age

of energy independence and also clean energy. >> really astounding that they don't see that. cutting off their nose to spite their face. this is a conversation we have had for at least a generation. we have to get off saudi oil. we can't be reliant on saudi oil on 9/11, after the brutal murder of jamal khashoggi, and the war in ukraine, and the saudi action in it. democratic senator chris murphy of connecticut, a member of the foreign relations committee. senator thanks for being with us this morning. we've got a lot to talk to you about. let's start there with saudi arabia, and what this latest move cutting oil production tells you about our relationship with the saudis, and how maybe it should change? >>. >> to the point that you have been making already, we made a massive down payment this summer on energy independence, the inflation reduction act, which

super charges clean energy tax credits and investment in renewables is going to help us very quickly move away from saudi oil, russian oil, venezuela oil, but let's also be clear, you know, the united states has been a security partner with the saudis, notwithstanding, their human rights abuses or their war in yemen because we made a bet that when the global crisis came, the saudis would choose us, not the russians or the chinese. in fact, the saudis abandoned us, and we have to relook at our security relationship. why are we spending so much american taxpayer money, why are we risking the lives of our soldiers protecting saudi arabia if they're not willing to protect us. i do think you're going to have a congress and the president take a serious look at some of the systems we have deployed to saudi arabia. i'll give you an example. we've got two pretty significant anti-missile systems in saudi arabia. the patriots, both of which ukraine wants and needs.

eastern european countries want and need them. i think you'll see a lot of interest coming up in moving those systems out of saudi arabia. moving them to ukraine or to eastern european partners. you know, not as a consequence for what opec but just a recognition of reality. this is not an alliance like it was ten years ago, and those missile systems are better utilized other places. >> to the senator's point, president biden said he did believe this relationship with saudi arabia should be reevaluated. he said steps could be taken. as the senator hinted, stopping arms sales to saudi arabia, perhaps for a year, maybe more. no action will be taken until congress is back, therefore after the midterms a month or so from now. this is something that's deeply frustrating the administration, much of washington. you know the region so well, what's your analysis of what went into the saudi's decision and what should the u.s. do

next. >> think back to 1945 when president roosevelt is meeting with the saudi king. that signified or started eight decades of security cooperation where we provided a security umbrella, and in return, of course, we received help on energy from the saudis. the moves by mbs are upsetting to at lot of us. i spent most of my career as a middle east hand. what you don't have is people around mbs to steer him in the right direction. there's no more mohammed bin naef, the saudi security minister, a titan in the security world and one of the middle east's leading intelligence chiefs. there's no one like that anymore, and ultimately you have someone who's under 40, mbs, young, immature, and makes decisions probably based on spite. let's not forget, not only is this going to help our adversary in terms of russian president putin in terms of revenue for his war efforts, this hurts the

american consumer. gas prices are going to go up, and a side of me that thinks back to jared kushner's bromance with mbs, and this is saudi interference in american politics. it's deeply disturbing, and the white house is right to take retaliatory measures. >> also shortsighted in the long run for the saudis. there has been a feeling among some states over there that they're going to play it down the middle with the united states and russia. play it down the middle with the united states and china. i don't mean to be an arrogant american because of course we go around all day talking about how terrible things are in america, not me, but donald trump and others. and i really think that maybe they believe donald trump. maybe they don't understand that the u.s. dollar is stronger. it's a generational high, stronger than it's been in 50 years. maybe they don't understand that

relative to the rest of the world, the united states military is stronger than ever before. maybe they're listening to josh hawley, maybe mbs believes josh hawley and the right wing freaks saying how weak our military is, ask russia when they tried to rush our guys in syria, how well that went. that's over in about five minutes, right. ask russia, who's fighting now against u.s. trained ukrainian fighters who are running them around in circles and again, it's insanity how powerful and nobody wants to hear this. because washington's so dysfunctional. we are stronger today relative to the rest of the world. using the measuring stick that paul kennedy used in the '87 classic. we are more powerful economically and militarily relative to the rest of the world than we have been since

1945, maybe even ever, and they're trying to play it both ways. this is just so stupid and shortsighted. it's almost like they're watching a certain cable news network, and believing that america is in decline. >> joe, you're right, and you really do wonder because at the end of the day, allies have to stick together when, you know, in times of crisis, when times are tough, and the saudis have not done that. i have never seen the level of anger, certainly we heard the senator previously, certainly anger amongst members of congress, but also in terms of my old class, those who worked on the middle east, the betrayal that we feel. there's one other point that i think that's important too is ultimately mbs really embarrassed, humiliated joe biden, the president of the united states, how did that happen? because as we were kind of negotiating this trip and the famous fist bump, what should have been done is receive actual

concrete assurances from the saudis. >> he should have never gone over there. >> i can't believe he did. >> i hate to throw old colleagues under the bus, that is staff work that has gone awry. we need concrete deliverables that the saudis are going to give us. >> jonathan, how did that happen? how did they send him over to go see a guy who most people understood at some point we needed to see, but who chopped up a "washington post" columnist after torturing him and burying him, how do they send the president of the united states over there without written assurances that this was going to happen. >> part of it was because they wanted to de-emphasize the meaning of the trip. they wanted it to be about u.s. relations in the region and worries about iran. they didn't want to be going over there. this is when prices were high. >> they didn't have to announce it to the "new york times." the staff could have said, coming over, this is what we can expect. if you deliver it, we'll give

you the fist bump, if you can't, we're not coming. >> the fist bump took them by surprise. we reported later that they did not know that mbs would be the one to greet the president as his motorcade pulled up. >> just a visit in general. >> they did not have what they needed. there has been a lot of second guessing since then. internally second guessing. they probably should have gotten more assurances. you're seeing frustration from the president and staff and democrats like senator murphy who are saying we got betrayed by the saudis. >> let's get back to senator murphy. given the sandy hook massacre, an event in our history that i know you have been deeply, personally moved by and very involved in. yesterday a jury delivering an almost $1 billion verdict against alex jones for the disinformation and lies and the pain that he inflicted on the

sandy hook families. just what's your reaction to the verdict, any concerns, i think the question we all have here is will alex jones actually have to pay this money? >> yeah, i don't know the answer to that, i think it may be likely that his bankruptcy will provide some protection for him unfortunately, but let's be honest, there's no amount of money that can repair the damage that was done to these families. i mean, i hope some people watch some of the testimony in this case. what alex jones did to these families was to terrorize them. they got death threats, their children's graves were urinated on. some families were harassed so much by conspiracy theories, parents believed they faked the death of their children, they had to move their home several times to escape the harassment. alex jones deserves everything that's coming to him.

my concern is this, i don't think we can celebrate the take down of alex jones because somebody else is just going to take his place until the republican party and the right wing fully expunges these conspiracy theorists from these ranks. there's an audience for what alex jones is putting out there into the universe. maybe info wars disappears because of this. somebody else will take alex jones' place because alex jones is still celebrated in the republican party, mainstream republican candidates like j.d. vance are lifting him up on their social media feeds. i think this is a good day for the sandy hook families but there's going to be another alex jones out there unless the republican party and the right fully condemns this movement. >> and in fact, senator, to your point, he's making himself a martyr, i will not pay, this will not stand. go to my web site to pay money so i can pay some of it.

he's declared bankruptcy. you have gotten to know the families so well over the last decade, and it has been almost ten years now since the terrible day at sandy hook. can you just speak a little bit more, senator, to what you know they've gone through, i mean, the details of the harassment they have suffered, death threats they have received. many families having to move several times to dodge people who have been sent out by alex jones to pursue them. what have their lives been like as they try to grapple with the unthinkable thought that their first grader was slaughtered inside an elementary school classroom. okay. i think we lost senator murphy. can you hear me, senator? no, okay, we lost him. thank you for your time. let's bring to the conversation, one of the attorneys for the sandy hook families, josh kosgof, i'll put the same question to you, can you detail

what they have been through. it's important to say why they got the judgment of nearly a billion dollars yesterday. >> sure, willie, you know, the families have suffered in my view, two assaults, one lasting five minutes that took the lives of their loved ones carried out by a troubled kid, and the other started within three hours by a grown man from austin, alex jones, that these families had never heard of, and that assault, that kind of assault has been going on for ten years and counting, including up until the verdict. and apparently after. this has been a long, torturous road for the families who never asked for any of this, and i think that i can describe the difficulties they're having as there's no sanctuary for them. there's no -- they can't go to church, they can't go to -- they can't play golf. they can't go to the grocery

store. they can't even feel safe in their home. all of these families have been approached, harassed, threatened, in all of their sanctuaries that they would normally go to seek comfort. and it's very unsettling to live like that. for anybody. but especially when you're trying to rovrp recover from such a shattering loss. >> some of the people came to the funerals. the brave first grade teacher killed in the classroom as she tried to shield the children held a 5k run, these alex jones people showed up at the run and said the event never happened. were you surprised, josh, by the number, just the total, the amount of money that is now owed to these families, and do you expect that alex jones somehow, some way, will spend the rest of his life paying?

>> i wasn't surprised by the fact that it was a substantial number, willie, because i think if you or any of your team over there had been at trial and listened to the stories of these individuals and what alex jones has meant to their lives and how they've had to accommodate around him and how suspicious they've become and how fearful they have become, you would see it was a very just and sound and reasonable verdict. i thought it was going to be a substantial verdict. i had no idea what the actual amount was going to be, but there's one thing about this that i would just -- i heard senator murphy's comment, and i don't think that this is a political thing necessarily. the verdict, i think, if it stands for anything, will stand for the proposition that this type of conduct, attacking grieving families, attacking anybody who has been through a tragedy like this and maligning them for your own personal gain is not profitable, is not

profitable in the long run, and it's not certainly profitable morally or spiritually. it's just wrong, and so the families hope that through this verdict, it will dissuade others from trying to take up the jones mantel. >> josh, how will you get this man to pay this money. he said i don't have that much money. i'm not going to pay the money. might as well make it trillions of dollars because i don't have a billion dollars to give you, what are the mechanisms that will allow him to be pursued really for the rest of his life to reach this total of nearly a billion dollars? >> well, we're going to chase alex jones to the ends of the earth, just like he maligned these families for ten years, exposing them to harm and maligning them, and ruining their safety and security. these families have been patient, and they will make alex jones pay every last dollar that he has. the answer is, wait and see.

>> yeah, no, it's going to be a long process. attorney general for the sandy hook families josh koskoff, thank you so much, we appreciate you being here this morning. joe. and jonathan, of course he was grotesque even yesterday, while the verdict's being announced, mocking the families, mocking it all. >> yeah, jones was hosting his own show while the verdicts were coming down, and he had a split screen, so he was watching them come in and announced the penalties and he was cackling, he was laughing, making fun of the families. i'll never pay that, there's no money. imploring his supporters to donate more. no repentance, no contrition, no sense that he was sorry. gleeful. as parents who had their kids killed in a classroom as they were breaking down in tears, alex jones was gleeful. >> gleeful. mark, i'm just curious, you obviously worked across the world, you've seen governments

use disinformation, russians using disinformation, you go back historically, people talk about hitler's rise, the way hitler was able to rise to power, so much disinformation was spread out that people soon couldn't tell the difference between what was true, what was a lie, what was a conspiracy theory. i'm curious in this battle in the united states that we've been having, sort of against those who want to move us to a post truth world, people who were lying about sandy hook. people who were lying about stolen elections. people who were lying about italian guys with satellites stealing the elections, people lying about jewish space lasers, i want to put this stuff out there. people who are lying about covid vaccines, people who are lying about all of these different things, is now -- it seems to be working at least among a small group of americans because a lot of my friend, oh, i just don't watch the news anymore. why don't you watch the news

anymore. i don't watch news anymore because it's just so confusing, i don't know who to believe anymore, but wait, are you going to conspiracy theory web sites. and they'll explain who they're connected to. are you getting facebook pages sent to you with conspiracy theorists. well, you are actually, you are actually reading news sources, and i always guide them back because they're usually conservatives, so called conservatives, and i say, well, read the "wall street journal," just read the news pages of the "wall street journal" or the ap or "the financial times", and just straight news. the "wall street journal" is run by murdoch, do you think murdoch's part of the grand conspiracy to, you know, make hunter biden king of the world. there's no conspiracy there. and they just say, you know what, they don't want to do it. they just don't want to do it

because they don't want to know the truth. they're far more comfortable living in the lie. i can quote a scripture, i won't. but they can choose between the truth and darkness. and they choose darkness. they choose conspiracy theories. they won't even read murdoch's newspaper, day don't want to know the truth. that's all a very long prelude to the question. you studied other questions that have fought disinformation and authoritarian leaders, how are we doing now that alex jones has to pay out a billion dollars or is going to be chased for the rest of his life. now that rudy giuliani and mr. pillow, and news outlets are facing the music. lying about dominion, now that people are facing the music, lying about workers in georgia that just wanted to participate in the election process.

how are we doing, sort of a sense of gravity returning to this country? >> so i think it is, and, joe, when you walk into cia headquarters, on the right is the memorial wall, the stars, on the left there's a biblical verse, and ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free. that's one way, when i was in the cia, particularly at the end of my career, we very actively combatted russian disinformation, and that is by exposing it, and that is an absolutely critical point. the truth is your super power. when we would see the russians doing things, spreading disinformation, we worked with allies to expose it. that was effective, and that's the playbook the united states is slowly starting to follow, and it's really important because that truth, you know, seeing what the other side is doing in promulgating lies and conspiracies. the only way to combat that is to put forward @truth, so i think we're getting better. the verdict certainly is a positive step, but ultimately that's our super power is

pushing forth the truth, and again, it's worked overseas, i think it can work in the united states. >> i would agree with what mark just said, the data shows the surveys of people who tend to believe in conspiracy theories are more educated, right from rush limbaugh, alex jones, it's people who have the self-confidence to think they can research quotation marks as people research the vaccine et cetera, people who have the self-confidence to think they can do that research and come to their own world view, quotation marks tend to be more educated and self-believing in the first place. it's not simply a question of civics and education, it's a more complicated thing, and i would say one thing to mark, i hate to introduce a note of skepticism here, but the united states has the super power to tell the truth, but if you look at the build up to justification of the iraq war, you know, we've

also heard america not tell the truths. there are grounds for skepticism even when it's decent public servants like bill burns who are truth tellers. people think back in their mind to, well, that war was mis-sold. americans are going to be paying for that a long time. >> no doubt. the iraq crisis was a dark point on the agency. there were a lot of analytic reforms, perhaps we can talk about that at a another time. ultimately you have to try, and i think it was born out, you know, with some success when the united states came out before february 24th, and said, look, russia is going to invade, and there was a concerted effort. there was a lot of skepticism, particularly in europe. >> and then it came true. we'll never going to get past that iraq time as a point in our history, doesn't mean we can't try. there have been reforms in this, but skepticism is warranted.

the truth is going to be that super power and i think the events in ukraine where we have been public with our intelligence. >> bill burns is a very good public servant, part of the moral of the story. >> thank you so much. appreciate you being here, and ed, i look forward to being schooled on cricket. i want to understand. i want to believe again. still ahead on "morning joe," the monthly inflation report is released in just over an hour. god help us. we're going to break down what it means for the price that you pay, and why it could lead to more drastic action from the fed. up next, a few hours away from what's expected to be the final january 6th hearing. we're going to talk to a committee member and get reporting about the actions of the secret service on that day. at least the actions that we can still trace. we're watching the capitol all morning, it's going to be

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not high risk. false positive and negative results may occur. ask your provider if cologuard is right for you. . it's 40 past the hour, and it's a cloudy, rainy day here in washington, d.c. all eyes today, though, will be inside the capitol. this afternoon, the committee investigating the january 6th attack on the capitol will hold what is expected to be its final public hearing. joining us now, a member of the house january 6th select committee democratic congresswoman stephanie murphy of florida. also homeland security correspondent, julia ainsley, nbc news capitol hill correspondent allie -- ali vitale, and senior contributor,

eugene daniels. let's ask the congresswoman, what's going to happen today. >> you didn't tell me this was the hot seat. . >> is it the final hearing? >> it's the last hearing before november. >> before november. so there may be more, we don't know yet. >> you know, this investigation has been -- keeps moving. >> it has its own life and we keep finding new information, and i think it's important when we find information that the american people need to know that we present it in a way that's consumable, and the hearings have been a platform for us to be able to do that. >> right, just like the surprise hearing, it was when something came to your table that you felt you needed to share with the american people. i know you can't really reveal what's going to happen today, what do you hope will be accomplished in today's hearing, which is the final one that we know of? >> what i would like to ensure we do is continue to present the

facts of what happened in the run up to and on january 6th. and help the american people understand exactly what happened and how close we came to losing our democracy. what's really kind of interesting is that we keep getting additional information, and i think this hearing allows us to go a little deeper into what people knew, when they knew it, and what decisions they made based on that information. >> so and then jump in with questions, i have one more. i'm curious about your district and is there a disconnect between what you're trying to do at the capitol with these hearings and what your constituents talk to you about? i'm worried there's a massive disconnect, actually. >> you know, right now, my constituents are really focused on recovering from the hurricane and making sure that they can provide for their families and i think on that front as democrats, we have done an incredible job as far as supporting people through the pandemic, from an economic

perspective. we've made historic investments into climate change so that we can establish energy independence. we've had infrastructure that will be so useful in rebuilding central florida. we have done -- we have lowered -- we have been able to pass language to negotiate pharmaceuticals and lower the cost of drugs for our seniors. we have done so much that we are talking to our constituents about that affects their lives today. but what under girds all of this is a strong democracy. >> exactly. >> and the corner stone of that is free and fair elections that the american people believe in. >> julia ainsley, what are you looking at in your reporting into this. >> i have done a lot of reporting on the secret service. we reported yesterday that there are over a million communications from the secret service, not including the text messages, but it would include e-mails, radio transmissions, all things the secret service has on the record said they have turned over to your committee. i know you can't get into the details but one of the most

explosive moments was the testimony from cassidy hutchinson where she detailed albeit secondhand her account of what happened with the president when he demanded he go to the capitol on january 6th, and he was ultimately overruled. that is something trump has denied. do you think we might learn more through communications or through anything else that could just shed light more on that story? because i think that's something that just stands out to so many people and took so many people by surprise. >> well, i think we are still processing all of the data that they've given us and we haven't yet called some of the original witnesses back in to talk to them. but we will do that in time. what i think you need to take away from that piece of information is that the president wanted to go to the capitol. how he articulated that desire, what interactions happened to express that desire, there will be different people's account of that, but i think what we have found overwhelming evidence of

is he wanted to go to the capitol. >> ali vitali. >> congresswoman, the thing i think about, you guys as a committee have worked hard to keep this above partisan politics, way easier said than done. nothing is possible in that way these days. one of your fellow committee members just yesterday was on a debate stage, in a front line race, tight reelection battle and she said the words, i'm not the candidate if you believe the election was stolen. what does it tell you about the electorate and the way people are metabolizing your committee's work, one of the members, the fact that she's doing the work of upholding basic principles of democracy makes her more vulnerable? >> i think we have done our work in as apolitical way as we can. the reality is we have a lot of election deniers who are running this cycle, and that's a danger to our democracy and we want to make sure that we stand firm, that what we are doing is to defend democracy and defend elections for democrats, republicans and independents.

this isn't about one party. it's about making sure the american people have a voice in their government. >> the big story yesterday was the alex jones verdict. i just wonder if that name might be heard today in the hearing. >> you'll have to tune in. >> ultimate tease. >> itch to say, that statement in the debate is a great statement to make. >> yeah. >> in fact, i've said things when i campaigned, i would say things like that, and you approach it that way. the famous, if you believe in the conspiracy theories, if you believe some italian dude stole the election if you like attacking the fbi, qanon. >> attacking cops. >> that tom hanks and hillary clinton are in a cabal of a pedophile, awesome, vote for that person. because that freak believes it. that's actually a very strong way -- >> campaigns, after all, are about a debate of values. >> right.

>> it's policy and values. and for her to say, hey, if you don't believe in our democracy or in our election, then we probably don't have shared values. >> the larger impact of that, right is that voters could say, yeah, we don't believe in that, and that says something too, pretty loudly. >> we're going to find out. let me ask you, we have a debate, mika and i have the debate often about this show and what we put on this show. just -- we talk about it, and we did it again yesterday saying january 6th, very important to us. really it matters. we believe in democracy, we believe that was an assault on democracy. the lies that donald trump has told, the crimes that donald trump we believe has committed, the undermining of basic democratic institutions and elections. we're talking about that, but then every once in a while, a friend will say, we understand why that's important.

but we can't pay our grocery bill anymore. our health insurance is doubling. and i just wonder when you go out, we're talking about these issues that matter to us but we're more isolated from what happens when grocery prices go up than most people. i'm just talking about us. how much are you hearing about inflation? how big of an impact is it going to be on voters a month from now, voters who just are struggling to pay their rent. pay their grocery bills. pay their gas bills. >> i think that's a really self-aware debate that you're having because outside of the beltway, there isn't this breathless focus on january 6th, and i am aware of that too. in my district, my committee is focused on the economy. they are trying to make sure they can make ends meet, and i know that working families in central florida aren't watching the, you know, hearings minute

by minute, breathlessly. it's important that you all have covered it, though, because that gives the american people just enough taste of the last eight hearings and hopefully today's hearing, so that they understand generally, and what we have seen is that because that coverage is happening, we are moving the needle among people's -- the public opinion. >> and as a country, we have to do both, i think what nbc polling has found is that democracy has moved up to number two of the issues that people care about. congresswoman, one of the questions i have is we know there's going to be a final report coming out, probably in december. how important is it to focus on donald trump, the person, and that is he's going to be at the center of the case, the center of this entire investigation for obvious reasons. how important is it to focus on the institutions and the other fix as a country to have democracy moving forward? >> for me, it is important to focus on the institutions and the process, because if you focus on an individual, that assumes that once that individual steps off the stage,

this can't happen again. but the reality is that that individual laid out a playbook for how to allow this to happen, and there are efforts that are continuing to create the opportunity for another person who has mal-intent, who is not willing to step down when the voters say they don't want you anymore, for them to repeat that play book so we have to fix our institutions and put up the guardrails and ensure the cracks that were exploited this time are sealed. >> congresswoman, thank you so much. it's great to have you here today. ali vitali, we appreciate that. i got to ask you, quickly, what's the latest on the humanitarian crisis on the southern border? >> i'm so glad you asked that. i will tell you -- >> it is madness. it is chaos. and it gets worse every day. >> we had a big announcement last night, what is happening now is that venezuelans crossing

the border, making up a lot of the people getting on bus, coming to cities like dc, the florida governor has been a part of that, and now the venezuelans will be stopped at the border from coming in. they're setting a cap of 24,000, they will allow in, and spots in the u.s., which is very rare for venezuelans, and they will stop in mexico, part of the deal the u.s. reached with mexico, so basically now, the number two homicide rate in the world, that is where the venezuelans will be living and it can be easily overlooked and people are focused on immigration, and know in the polls, it is also moving up, i think it's number three, that surprised me, but i think people focused so much on what happens at our southern border and now, it's just being pushed down. it doesn't mean the problem is going away or suffering is going away, it doesn't come up with a concrete solution but that's the latest thing, no longer have access to asylum. >> we'll revisit that.

>> thank you so much for your reporting. and coming up, is the republican party no longer the party of big business? we will have new reporting this morning on why the gop's political alliance with corporate america is on the rocks. we'll be right back.

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the path forward is disney will not control its own government in the state of florida. disney will have to follow the same laws that every other company has to follow in the state of florida. they will pay their fair share of taxes. >> remember when florida governor ron desantis picked a fight with mickey mouse earlier this year? >> and actually a tweet, where the rays were against little kids getting shot in elementary

school classes, so he got really angry, and took away a tax break, i think, for the rays? >> something like that. >> he didn't like disney's position on the controversial bill. >> he also did this to cruise lines. >> he did. >> and he told cruise lines, listen, i know how to run your business in tallahassee better than you know how to run your business and keep people coming on the cruise lines. screw you guys, i'm not going to allow you to do what you think will help you survive covid. >> and while we're at it, he flew migrants to martha's vineyard and thought it was funny, so cool, so cool to be cruel, you are so cool, to be so cool as you. he is so cruel. >> wait a second. are you being sarcastic. >> he thinks it is cool to be cruel. and this is not sarcastic. >> our next guest. >> our next guest says republican officials, particularly in the house, are

moving to dissolve a decades old political marriage and it is all about their budding relationship with working class voters. >> senior political correspondent for the washington examiner, david, a whole lot to do with ron desantis, i'm not sure why we went through that exercise, not a whole lot to do with him, but we could be here another week. this is interesting. i'm so glad, i did a podcast yesterday with steve kornacki and he is asking me to recount 94-95 what the environment was like and in the mornings, oh, my god, there are so many things that started there, that have actually sort of exploded now. you know, we were supposed to be these right wing conservatives but we were very skeptical of wall street, we were very skeptical of the trade agreements, we were very skeptical of what was called the mexican bailout, where we were going to bail out mexico for some debt. it ended up it was all about

goldman sachs, right? so the republicans were trying to help goldman sachs. so there has been this friction, with sort of small government conservatives, libertarians, populists, but it's really, it's come to a breaking point now, and why don't you tell us about it, and i'm going to start rambling on right now, because the covid fog is getting the better of me. go. >> i think, joe, what is interesting here is that the past couple of years, republicans on capitol hill, particularly in the house, have not been interacting with corporate america in what we like to think of as big business, or the broader business community the way they have in past years. and a lot of this came to fruition for two reasons. one, in the aftermath of the january 6th riot on capitol hill, the attempt to overturn the election, a lot of corporate political action committees were under pressure, not to donate to more than half of the republican

conference on the house, on the house side, that voted to overturn the election. so you have that. and then in the wake of the pandemic, and the george floyd murder, and the civil unrest, and the protests, we've seen corporations newly politically active publicly, and often at cross purposes with republican policy on social issues. and so you have a lot of republicans who have been resentful that on the one hand, they will come to them, lobbyists and say that is fine, that is how things are done in washington and the government is trying to over-regulate me, over-tax me and cost money and cost jobs and we need you to do something about that, so that goes on the one hand and on the other hand very very publicly the corporations are slapping down republicans on cultural issues and republicans frankly have resented that, so between the loss of the relationships,

because nobody has been meeting with these lawmaker, the fact that so many lawmakers are new, and a new republican majority, it will be even more of them that don't have these relationships, they look at this long alliance with corporate america and they don't see number one any political utility to it, and number two, they don't have any desire to forge these connections, because they feel like corporate america is now hostile to them. >> i think they're a little sensitive here, aren't they? they will come out on an issue, but like tampa, for instance, they tweet, and ron desantis goes after them, i mean you look at the nfl, which republicans sort of declared a war on during the colin kaepernick, the year or two colin kaepernick, when that was controversial, the nfl, more popular today than ever before, making more money today than they've ever made before,

and same thing with mlb, disney, they're going after pretty popular institutions, and they are going after, you know, tom brady and mickey mouse. is that, are there some concerns inside of the nfl that that might not be the best thing -- not nfl, in the republican party, that might not be the best thing to do? >> well, this is not every republican. and i think on the senate side, you'll see more of a nuanced position from republicans, and not all republicans think this is a good idea and not all republicans are going to play along, but i really think what we have seen is a sort of sea change in ow republicans in washington view corporate america, which is different than how they look at small businesses. they feel like small businesses have not acted the same way corporate america does, and look ultimately, i don't know that we can be certain how this is going to play out because look, we

will have another couple of years, and we know a lot of these companies are going to try and re-establish connection, we know republicans are not necessarily all of a sudden for tax increases or a lot of overregulation, especially in the oil and gas and defense industries, but i do think it's fair to say that the populist has been ascended into party of late, and they are much more willing as ron desantis has in florida, to use the power of government to strong arm corporations, to strong arm businesses, to try and influence how they operate. look, i'm in ohio today. i'm trailing around jamie vance. he is running against tim ryan for the open senate seat here. and he's spoken in a very adversarial manner toward american corporations. he does not see them as -- the way he has described it as doing what is in the best interest of the country, versus the best interest of the bottom line. and i think the difference here, joe, is for the last 30, 40 years or so, republicans generally felt that if a corporation was successful, it could employ more people, and

pay higher wages, and i don't think republicans are looking at it that way anymore. and finally, what i would say is this. with the loss of corporate pac donations over the last couple of years, republicans on the hill discovered they didn't need the money. they're doing much better at raising money online. but either way, they didn't really miss the money. and so ultimately, what's missing here is the relationship. and i think that that could have some big ramifications from a policy perspective, over the next couple of years, as republicans try to find a way to govern with president biden. if they try and find a way to govern. >> the washington examiner david trucker thank you so much for your reporting. thanks for coming on this morning. let's turn to this news now, the conspiracy theorist alex jones was hit yesterday with a staggering financial penalty for his lies about the sandy hook elementary school shooting a

jury ordered him to pay $965 million to the families of the victims. emilie ikeda has details. >> have you agreed upon a verdict? >> yes. >> an outpouring of emotion as the verdict was read, a connecticut jury ordering right wing conspiracy theorist alex jones to pay nearly a billion to families of eight sandy hook victims and an fbi first responder. erica lafferty the daughter of sandy hook's principal. >> the truth matters. and those who profit off of other people's pain and trauma will pay what they have done. >> the $965 million verdict is the second largest judgment against the infowars host for promoting the lie that sandy hook was a hoax, calling grieving parents like robbie parker who lost his 6-year-old daughter emily hired crisis actor. >> it shouldn't be this hard and this scary. >> while the victim was revealed jones was on air blocking what

he called a show trial. >> never said their name or who they are. >> the month on trial featured dramatic testimony about the vicious harassments sandy hook families have endured. >> it is a constant fear. >> mark barden telling the jury how jones' fathers violated the grave of his son daniel. >> to hear that people were desecrating it, and urinating on it and threatening to dig it up. >> jones' attorney vowing to appeal. >> certainly, it is more than we expected. that's an understatement. but we will flex florida to an appeal in this case. candidly from start to finish, the fix was in, in this case. >> after years of false claims, the summer during another sandy hook trial, jones admitted the tragedy did occur. he's ordered to pay nearly $50 million to a victim's family in that case. but during this trial, he lashed out again on the witness stand. >> i'm done saying i'm sorry. >> refusing to apologize or

acknowledge the pain he caused. >> but i legitimately thought it might have been staged and i stand by that and i don't apologize for it. >> and joining me the co-founder and managing director of sandy hook promise, her 6-year-old son dillon was killed in the sandy hook shooting massacre. nicole, thanks so much for being with us this morning. there can be no joy surrounding the story and the loss of your son but what does it feel like to have seen this massive judgment against a man who has led to so much harassment of you and your fellow sandy hook families? >> i am just incredibly grateful to the jury. this must have been a very difficult number of weeks for them, listening to all of our testimony, but they really did listen. and i think that they, with this historic judgment, they are sending a very strong message out to the likes of alex jones and his followers, that this sort of spread of disinformation that causes harm to others and profit to yourself is not going

to be accepted. and i think that message has been heard by alex jones and wait to see what he does with this now. >> and to compound the suffering that you and your fellow sandy hook families have already felt from the loss of your son, it is just pure evil to have people chase you and pursue, and harass you. can you describe, and i'm sorry to make you bring it up again but i think it is important for people to understand what you've been through in addition to the pain of losing dillon, what you've been through as a result of what alex jones has been putting into the atmosphere for ten years. >> you know, thank you for asking that, because i think a lot of people have been reaching out over these last weeks saying i didn't realize it was that bad. and i don't think people really understood what it's like to be dealing with this. i was still in the firehouse, not knowing if my son was alive or dead, when alex jones was broadcasting his first show showing it looked like a false flag. i had no idea what i was going to do and he was calling us crisis actors.

and this spread, he lit a match that then spread like wildfire. i received letters telling me that i need to slit my wrists before they slit them for me. i've been told that fu and f your son, i've been sent notes saying we will gip you a rip greeting, rot in piece, we would like to take down videos honoring our son, we have had to change my entire security system. i live in fear. i'm always looking in the backseat before i get in the car. i'm constantly vigilant. and who is around me. it is never ending. because you never know just how far this lie spreads and how many people believe that your son never existed or never died, or that you had a hand in killing him, which is just abhorrent. >> i'm so sorry that you've been going through that, in addition to grieving your son for ten years now, i know nicole, this is not about money for you at all, or any of the victims. >> no. >> it is about some form of justice and to send a message that you can't get away with doing this. what do you expect to happen

from here. we had the attorney on a few minutes ago who said we will pursue alex jones to the end of the earth, to his last days, to get this money from him, he cannot run, he cannot hide from us, he said, what do you expect to happen here? do you think alex jones will be made to pay? >> i think he will be made to pay. and i think that this is going to be a very long journey for alex jones now, as it should be, and he should feel every day of that pain for what he's inflicted on us for the last ten years, and let's be honest, this isn't over. it's not over in the courts. it's not over in the bankruptcy courts either. and even yesterday there are still hoax-ers out there commenting this didn't happen. so this harassment will continue. but alex jones is not going to feel the pain, or a fraction of the pain that he's been putting on us. >> so just looking at reading about what your life has been like ever since this tragedy,

i'm curious about yesterday, watching the verdict come in, watching you, and the other family members, and defendants, plaintiffs, crying, what does this validate, if anything, do you think? this verdict? >> it was overwhelming, and when that first number came out for robbie, and i was sitting behind him, it was just completely overwhelming to know that this was truly going to be something historic and send that message. and so it was just so much emotions and gratitude, but also thinking, you know, they've heard us, and the american people have heard us, and people know my son lived, my son died, they know what happened at sandy hook really did happen, and that alex jones has been hurting us for years, just for his own profit. so it really was a sense of justice, and good does prevail

in the end, and i believe that, and i continue to want to see that happen. >> well, i wanted to ask you, ten years later, after this unspeakable event, this horrific event, i want to ask you where sandy hook is, where sandy hook promise is, how you're going to commemorate ten years in december, it's a day that all of us remember, you know, mika's covered news, and said 9/11 was hosk, but nothing was -- horrific but nothing was worse than what happened at sandy hook. with this scar open, and i'm just wondering, for those who suffered pain that none of cuse imagine, is there healing? is there hope?

what message will sandy hook, what message will newtown send out to the world on the ten-year date? >> i'm not sure what the town of newtown is going to do, but what i would encourage, because there's always hope, there's always hope, and we need to lean into that all the time, and make it a reality and make it happen. what i would encourage people to do is go to, it's a website called my sandy hook family.org, and every single family has their lost one name on there, and links to the lives of each of those people. dill en is on there. danle is on there. they're all on there, about what we lost and also how we're honoring them each as individuals. so i would encourage you to go learn about the victims and how each family wants them to be remembered and support them in that way. >> an example of strength, nicole, for the last decade, and i know it's not easy and it's painful to have to go out and talk about this all the time but we're so grateful that you do,

as we look at pictures of your beautiful son, the co-founder and managing director of sandy hook promise, nicole hockley, thank you as always, we appreciate your time. >> thank you. let's bring in msnbc legal analyst charles coleman at the table with me. charles, when this number came down, $965 million, you thought what? number one. and number two, can they get this guy to pay the money? >> well, number one, i thought about accountability. i felt like this was a very appropriate and rightly strong message about what it is in this society today to spread lies that you know are not true, and i think that it's important, because we've been battling a current where it's profitable to say these things for a lot of people. alex jones, as you noted, was online streaming at the time, and turning this into another cash cow. and we've seen this in so many different instances where people will essentially hustle

controversy for profit. and know that he polarizes a discourse, they know that it further divides people but they dive into it because it is something they can capitalize on. it was important for this jury, in terms of setting the tone of accountability, to say no, we have a problem with this. in terms of them being able to recover the funds, i do think that it is a long road ahead. i do think that alex jones more than likely has a number of different avenues, separated himself from his business, and they will go after as many of those avenues as they can pursue, but i hope for these families that they will be able to recover something. >> and so charles, when you think about it, as you said, there is profit in this. and if he goes away, there will be somebody else who pops up and there already are people doing that, he was on the air yesterday, we saw him appallingly laughing and cheering as the verdicts were read yesterday. at the same time he was driving his viewers and his listeners to his website to give him more money. so even if this stops him, do you worry that there's just another him coming along?

>> well, unfortunately, i do think that is a reality that we have to contend with. i think that there is the possibility that someone will see an opportunity here to step into that gap. the one silver lining to this cloud, if you will, is that this verdict creates a model, some level of precedent, where you're talking about the ability to hold people accountable for outlandish lies and untruths. and i think that's perhaps a very low bar, but it's a starting point. i think that we have to go beyond where this verdict takes us in terms of establishing some boundaries around what it is that you could just say, particularly when they lead to the type of harassment, the type of pain and the type of emotional distress that these victims here felt. i think we do have to go further in terms of establishing that, and when people knowingly spread these untruths and falsehoods, but it is going to be a long road, and i do think we will see this again. >> all right. an employee of donald trump told federal agents the former

president specifically directed workers to move boxes of documents at mar-a-lago after receiving a subpoena from the fbi earlier this year, before federal agents searched the property. this is according to a source familiar with the matter. federal agents have security camera footage corroborating accounts showing people moving boxes out of the storage room at the beach club, and first reported by the "washington post." the witness account suggests that the boxes were moved to trump's private res dense at mar-a-lago, after the subpoena was issued. a majority of the seized material was found in boxes and containers in trump's office, and a storage room. according to the post, the new revelations offer key evidence of donald trump's behavior as investigators sought to get the return of classified material. a trump spokesman issued a statement that read in part

this, the biden administration has weaponized law enforcement and fabricated a document hoax in a desperate attempt to retain political power. >> that will work. >> the fbi and justice department declined to comment to nbc news. >> let's bring in a reporter, covering national security and enforcement for the paper, the "washington post" and one of the reporters who first broke the story. quite a story. what did you learn? >> it shows something, doesn't it? >> obstruction perhaps. >> two of the big points of this investigation that have been sort of mysteries of this process have been what did the witnesses say and what did the security footage show. what this story really filling in is those two things and shows how they intertwine and support each other according to the people we talked to. >> tell us a little bit more about the witnesses. there has been a lot of speculation, who could this be, club members, employee, tell us about that, and what sort of access witnesses had to what was

going on there and what trump was ordering them to do. >> we're told this witness in particular, this key witness, that is considered very important to the investigation, was interviewed initially by the fbi and denied having those boxes and denied knowing anything about sensitive documents, just said that wasn't part of my job, i don't know anything about it. as the investigation proceeded the fbi went and interviewed that person again, and this time, that person told a very different story which was, look, i moved the boxes, i was told to do that, and that, in connection with the security footage, really convinced investigators that they had a lot to work with. >> talk a little bit about the legal jeopardy that these folks are finding themselves, in as lie after lie after lie are told in what happened in surrounding the documents at mar-a-lago, because you know, donald trump is saying a lot of things in public that, one, lawyers are

not saying in the court of saw. >> one of the interesting challenges of this case is a lot of people are nervous and trying to stay away from it. there is a sense, you can tell, from talking to people, there is a sense that people are afraid of getting caught up in this thing because no one really knows what the end result of this is. and in this particular witness's instance in particular, there are cases where the first time the fbi talked to someone, they don't really tell the whole story. so that's not great. i think the nice way of saying it. and it is also not fatal or you know, the final word. witnesses do come clean over time. and the fbi and the justice department can what they call rehabilitate a witness. but the stakes are very high for all of these people. there is real legal jeopardy for a lot of people and that's part of what we're seeing in this report. >> especially if what they did was on camera. so tell us about the camera system at mar-a-lago, how extensive is it? what does the fbi have? >> so i don't think of it as, i don't know all of the answers to that question, i don't think of

it as a system where you know, you're watching people at their desks, like through the day, i do think there is a way, they clearly have enough cameras there to show movement from one part of the complex to another part of the complex. >> so i have a quick question on that point. so we know that the storage room where they were moved in and out had cameras on them, they were taken to donald trump's personal residence at mar-a-lago, i would expect that there would be no cameras monitoring mosquements in and out of there do you know if that is the case or not. >> i have not found anyone who said there are cameras in the residence looking at donald trump's residence. like a camera nur living room for example. >> or outside the door. did they move it from a place that was monitored to a place where donald trump could do whatever he wanted to do. >> according to the dimg here, one the dynamics here, is as these negotiations are going on and the negotiations we know were not going well, as these negotiations are going on, part

of the trump posture here is that we keep all of this stuff in the storage room. and so the movement is important in part because the government is trying to say the storage room is not a secure place for sensitive classified documents, let alone if you're moving it other places. like please, one of the things we say in the story, there is a letter from d.o.j. on june 8th who says please make sure that all of the boxes that went from the white house to mar-a-lago are in this storage room. and we now have -- >> yes. >> so now charles coalman, i would love to get your insight on, this earlier on the show today, george conway said he felt that the straightest line between donald trump and an orange jump suit was this case, the case of the document, the easiest, cleanest way to look at a potential crime that has been committed. with everything that we know now, with donald trump saying, you know, i think it was a plan fake, they searched it, they ripped the place apart.

melania was very upset about what happened in her closet to give me my documents back, they're mine, to this new revelation, where he clearly was moving them, and i won't go further as to what that action was or could be, but what do you make as where this stands? do you agree with george conway? >> i do, mika. i think there are a litany of choices that you have in terms of playing the game of when will donald trump be indicted and prosecuted. but i think this one is perhaps the straightforward option that people have been asking about. and i'll tell you why. it is a matter of the timing. the fact that they had the subpoena and then after getting the subpoena, where they were informed that these materials were a part of an ongoing criminal investigation, and that donald trump instructed someone to move them from one place where people were told they were to another place in order to conceal their location, it is direct evidence of obstructing

justice, and it is said to obstruct justice, and despite the numerous cases we know, and the investigations in georgia, and everything potentially going on in new york, and obviously things looming with respect to what could come out of today's final january 6th hearing, all of those things set aside, this case, and what we have learned from the "washington post," yesterday, around donald trump's decision and instruction to move these documents, following getting the subpoena, is to me, and as well george conway, the most direct line to see donald trump convicted. >> all right. msnbc legal analyst charles coleman, thank you so much. devlin, what's next in this case? >> i think we now know some key pieces of evidence. there are some things we want to know. we want to know who is going before the grand jury. we know there is a grand jury. and we want to know other what other types of documents were seized by the fbi. >> we'll be watching your reporting, "washington post" reporter devlin barrett, thank

you very much for being on this morning. and still ahead on "morning joe," we are moments away from the september consumer inflation report. the last one released before the november election. we're going to break down that report and what it means for the possibility of another interest rate hike. also ahead, we are hours away from the next and possibly final january 6th committee hearing. we'll dig into the new reporting that former president trump was warned numerous times of the growing violence and yet still stoked the conflict. you're watching "morning joe." speaking of stoked, going to break. g to break. ♪ music (“i swear”) plays ♪ jaycee tried gain flings for the first time the other day... and forgot where she was. [buzz] you can always spot a first timer. gain flings with oxi boost and febreze. my asthma felt anything but normal.

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today's hearing from the house committee investigating the january 6th attack on the capitol, it will focus on

trump's state of mind. >> good luck with that. >> an aide tells nbc news it will reveal new information the committee has gathered. and will highlight events that took place before and after january 6th. the hearing will be roughly two and a half hours long, with a 10-minute recess halfway through. every member of the committee will present different pieces of evidence. it will not include any live witnesses, but will feature new testimony from witnesses who have appeared during past hearings, as well as from some who have not been seen before. this hearing will likely be the committee's last before the midterm elections, and that's where i begin with you, jackie, so they're wrapping this up, what more can you tell us, in terms of what we can expect this afternoon, and then what happens from there? >> yes, and just for the sake of transitions, to show how dark and intra-connected this world of extremism is, we'll probably be seeing texts from alex jones

during this hearing today, after his lawyer accidentally sent them to the lawyer of the sandy hook parents, who then provided it to the january 6th committee, who went through all of them and found that he was communicating with people like roger stone and other extremists but today, i think it is going to be a little bit different than the previous hearings that we've seen, it will take a step back, a 30,000 foot view of the entire effort to overturn the results of the election, starting from before election day, and ending after january 6th, all of trump's efforts to overturn the election regardless of what the electoral outcome was going to be. it is going to be divided up into a few different sections, led by different lawmakers, one section that we reported on extensively yesterday is going to be focused on secret service, and the way the secret service was sort of implicated in the coverup essentially of january

6th, and a lot of this information is going to be corroborative of information that the committee has already put out in previous hearings, and there's probably going to be new testimony from associates of the former president, cabinet secretaries who interviewed with the committee over the summer to sort of talk about why they were mulling the 25th amendment and the president's state of mind and mental fitness after the attack, along with underscoring the ongoing threat to democracy and our elections. as you were saying, joe, the election worker florida who was subject to a constarrage of attacks, this continues to today, it's what i like to call the slow rolling insurrection, that has festered, and been spawned by trump's consistent fraudulent claims of election fraud. >> this does feel something like a closing argument for this committee, which has been

incredibly effective at telling the story. we noted, you know, when they last left us in july that it wasn't the usual grandstanding we've seen from usually the congressional hearing, it is fall of senators, and members of congress, sort of puffing themselves up, and telling long stories, it has been pretty focused on the facts, so the question is, what happens from here. they've grabbed the public's attention. we understand the story. the public understands the story of what happened before, during, and after january 6th, they'll make a report, and then likely some referrals, and then what does the justice department do with that is the question. >> those are the questions. the lawmakers don't have enough time with the grandstanding because of the amount of information they collected and between august and now alone, they received 1.5 million documents from the department of homeland security, regarding some of the document requests they have made to the secret service, and they received a trove of emails, microsoft team chats, new radio frequency,

recordings of radio frequency channels of live secret service communications that were taking place, and so the committee is not only using this hearing to make the closing argument, but to squeeze in all of the evidence that they have, not yet had a place to show yet. but you are right, in that this is the last time that they have this platform before midterms, and are really trying to lay out to voters ways that they feel like they have been misled, and swindled. they're probably going to also show the ways in which the republican party really tried to defraud the american people, by continuing to fundraise off of these false claims of election fraud, and allow people to make the most educated decision possible, when they go to the polls in november, but more importantly, in 2024, and

potentially present some alternatives and some new legislative remedies to prevent this from happening again. >> coming up, more on herschel walker's u.s. senate campaign, after he told that truly bizarre story about pregnant cows and not being a cool thing for the bull. >> i'm not really sure, i've done a few campaigns and this is not a story i've seen. >> it is a new strategy. >> we will show you -- >> some self deprecating humor. he wants to get six cows pregnant. >> we will show you how the late night shows handled that when "morning joe" comes right back. "morning joe" comes right back moderate to severe eczema still disrupts my skin. despite treatment it disrupts my skin with itch. it disrupts my skin with rash. but now, i can disrupt eczema with rinvoq. rinvoq is not a steroid, topical, or injection. it's one pill, once a day, that's effective

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there are over 7 billion people in the world. but how many of us have the same

father? introducing 34 and me. just swab your nose. our team will analyze the results and reveal if herschel walker is your dad. >> he is. >> he is. >> what? >> what the [ bleep ]. >> 34 and me. >> so what do i do now? >> be quiet. >> i'm rafael warnock and i approve this message. >> that is so good. >> willie, it really changes things. >> what do i do now? >> quiet. >> 34 and plea. that was not a warnock ad. we should point out. that was from jimmy kimmel making some jokes last night. but herschel walker keeps feeding this beast by the way when he goes out and tells unsolicited stories about pregnant bulls and they have something going on, he is just keeping the story alive, isn't

he? >> he loves it. >> he really is. i mean again, we were talking, dinner last night, talking about the herschel walker talking about telling a story, about a bull that got three cows pregnant and that wasn't enough and he wanted to go over the fence and get three more pregnant. >> thumbs up to the fact that three were pregnant. >> so you know, something is going on there. >> thank you, herschel, yes. >> we do actually know that something is going on there and it is complicating things in georgia. >> what do you make of this, george? >> speechless. >> i really don't know, i mean i've gotten to the point where i'm almost ready to take on my phone and sort of block out herschel, so i don't get any information about him. i mean it is the same kind of lunacy that we have. i mean it is almost like there's this wave of illness that's flooded the country, from an

alex jones, donald trump, to herschel walker. >> and taught us how to tap into racism, cruelty, and lying, and to make it work for them. >> right. and he's given, he's created a permission structure for people to, you know, i'm not saying that some of these senators that we've, the favorite senators like olly or a cruz, would have been good people in another universe, but they wouldn't have been quite as bad if they didn't learn from the master. they would be checked. they would have some shame. >> nothing matters. >> no. >> there are no consequences, especially, you know, both of them, particularly republicans, but the idea that nothing matters and there are no rule, they don't pay the price, and so it is all about libs and scoring points. >> it is not just no consequences. elected president of the united states. >> let's, again, put some perspective here.

because mika and i have this conversation all the time, no consequences. no consequences, really? donald trump wins in 2016, on the one day that key win. according to donald trump. in 2017, democrats win big. republicans get routed. in 2018, republican, trump republicans get routed. in 2019, trump republicans get routed. you have louisiana and kentucky going democratic. in 2020, you have donald trump ending up being the first president since herbert hoover to lose the house, the senate, and the white house, in the first term. >> and then by the end of this year, he could be indicted twice. >> so there are consequences, really politically, you look economically, look at alex jones, consequences economically, it seems to return, and legally, my gosh, it seems all of the things donald

trump thought he was going to get away with through the years are all catching up to him in courthouses in georgia, and new york, across the country. it certainly has added up, if donald trump decides to run for president again, he might learn just how much is added up. which is to say the people who took a flyer on him in 2016 and tried him in 2020, don't want any part of him anymore. and to the point of herschel walker, they are where they are because of dft and put his hand on him, and i like the way he played football for the new jersey generals 40 years ago, let's make him a united states senator, he's famous and we love him for all of the touchdowns he scored down in athens, so this is donald trump's guy, and the reason he is there because no one, including those men behind him, tom cotton and rick scott, want to say the obvious, which is that he is a terrible candidate who threatened his wife, who his children, he

doesn't take credit for, that he won't take responsibility for, that is a candidate who would have been run out of the race long ago, if not for donald trump standing in the way. they still will not cross the man who runs that pear, donald trump. >> yes. and here is the short term challenge. you can see in the background, you can see rick scott, who runs the republican senate campaigns, you see tom cotton. 2022 should be a huge year for republicans. republicans were feeling good about it. you go to the grocery store, and you look at the prices of groceries, they're just exploding. gas prices are going to be exploding. and we sit here, and we're talking about the constitutional republic, madisonian democracy being challenged, we talk about the january 6th hearings, but

the overwhelming majority of voters are concerned about the fact that they go to the grocery store and the prices are higher than the day before. >> yes. >> that's what's driving them. so maybe herschel walker wins. maybe some of these republicans win, for reasons that have nothing to do with the insanity, that have nothing to do with the lies, and this sort of behavior gets rewarded. >> right. and i mean, you know, but the point and you make the obverse point, that they should have won more, this should have been a great year. >> right. >> even better than you could have ever imagined for republicans two years ago. because of all of these factors. and in a normal off year, that is what would happen. in a normal off year, where we have inflation for the first time, you have interest rates that are the highest in 60 years, and gas prices, you would normally expect just the complete blowout. and that's not what we're likely

to see. >> coming up, the latest from the war in ukraine. nbc's keir simmons is in russia this morning, where he sat down with a top adviser to vladimir putin. and that interview is next on mongz. "morning joe." "morning joe." "mo" ♪ ♪ this... is a glimpse into the no-too-distant future of lincoln. ♪ ♪ it's what sanctuary could look like... feel like... sound like... even smell like. more on that soon. ♪ ♪ the best part? the prequel is pretty sweet too. ♪ ♪

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good morning. russia assaults kyiv for the fourth consecutive day. they were struck by kamikaze drones earlier this morning. according to the associated press, one official said on telegram critical infrastructure facilities were hit. not clear if there were any casualties, but russia continues

its assault deep inside ukraine. meanwhile, nbc news senior international correspondent keir simmons spoke to russian deputy prime minister alexander novak and asked him about putin's state of mind. >> you work closely with president putin. how would you describe his frame of mind right now? >> translator: the president, first of all, thinks about the interest of our country and about the interest of people who live in our country. >> keir joins us now from moscow. what more did you glean from that interview about the russian state of mind, putin's state of mind, and where this war is heading? >> reporter: willie, we're getting news today that turkey is again, president erdogan, again, meeting with president putin to see if he can be at the center of peace negotiations in . in terms of the russians' state of mind, fundamentally, they would not be prepared to give up

territory they have taken in this conflict, and of course ukraine and its allies in the west and the u.s. are not prepared for russia to hold on to territory. that is the fundamental lot there. it means the conflict will likely continue. now, talking to alexander novak, he is at the center of these geopolitics because he is the man, the russian, who has sat down with the saudis and other opec leaders to negotiate that cut to oil production of 2 million barrels per day that has so frustrated folks in the u.s. because it means potentially higher prices at the pump. he, as you would expect, insisted to me it's not a political decision, an economic decision by saudi arabia and russia and other countries involved. then, willie, i also wanted to ask him about these reports that russia is selling oil to india and china at a discount, by one

count $25 per barrel cheaper. he had an interesting answer. take a listen. the imf says russian oil is being rerouted to india and china at a discount. india and china helping support the russian economy? >> translator: india and china in my opinion are primarily interested in meeting the needs of their own economies and inventory sources. if russian oil is cheaper on the market today, then it will find a customers who interested in it. >> reporter: and, willie, notable that yesterday that u.n. vote to condemn russia's offensive in ukraine, that both india and china abstained in that vote. saudi arabia joined the countries that voted in favor of that resolution.

saudi arabia overnight insisting, notable to try and do this to say that no, no, no, that cut in oil production has nothing to do with us siding with russia. >> we're getting news, as well, that putin told erdogan in that meeting this morning they might make turkey a gas hub. so working closely together. you spoke to deputy prime minister. how did he defend the attacks on civilian attacks deep inside ukraine? we saw the smoldering playground, the pedestrian bridge blown up, theaters and hospitals attacked. how do they defend the way they've prosecuted this war? >> reporter: he answers questions he wants to answer. you heard him there. he barely answered merely the question about putin's mind-set and of course the crucial thing to understand, willie, about this country is that there was

really only one person in the political sphere that matters and that is president putin himself. it's interesting when he spoke at the forum yesterday that there was an awful lot of security when he was speaking as soon as president putin left, the security drops, other members of the government there. so, you know, i think the truth is when you talk to anyone other than president putin here you are talking to -- you aren't talking to the boss. that is the reality. you're not talking to the person who made the decision with ukraine although of course all of them are party to the decision. >> keir simmons reporting from moscow. keir, thank so much. coming up next, live to cnbc on the heels of this morning's key inflation report. what it tells us about the federal reserve's fight against those climbing crises. my asthma felt anything but normal. a blood test helped show my asthma is driven by eosinophils, which nucala helps reduce.

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